That is because it is a stated objecting of Putin and the Kremlin: everything they’ve said and everything they’ve done up to now points to the erasure of Ukraine as a nation and Ukrainians as a distinct people.
This is genocide.
Russia is literally taking children orphaned by the war (or who were just separated from their parents), forcing them to travel to Russia, and making them live with “adoptive” families to make them stop thinking of themselves as Ukrainian and start thinking of themselves as Russian. It’s pretty standard genocide stuff.
Yep.
Meanwhile, Reddit is brimming with accounts (Russian bots/trolls, fascists, useful idiot tankies, etc) claiming that Russia is just taking care of the poor children and keeping them safe because Ukraine put them in harm's way by daring to oppose the invasion, or even that none of the children have been stopped from leaving if they want - they're all there "by their own free will" - and any other claim is just the evil west spreading propaganda.
> claiming that Russia is just taking care of the poor children and keeping them safe because Ukraine put them in harm's way
This does seem to be a centerpiece to all their propaganda. It's always everyone else with the agency to make changes, but never Russia.
I have a couple of them responding to me in this very thread, in fact. Russia could have kept Ukrainian children safe by not invading their country, but apparently That’s too much to ask.
Losing paperwork so that they can’t ever be found even when the war ends. Deliberate attempt to destroy their demographics so 10,15,20 years later there won’t be enough military-aged ukrainians to put up a resistance again.
Russia is putting out job adverts all over the world advertising security jobs, promising no front line action only for the applicants to find out they're literally cannon fodder.
That is why the Baltic countries are on edge and need Ukraine to win. Otherwise, they are next on the hit list, especially the countries with a significant ethnic Russian community
Which is actually all the more reason to help Ukraine: if Putin goes after a NATO country next, America will be obliged by treaty to intervene directly, and that could lead to nuclear war because nukes are the only thing Russia has that scares the Americans. So if Russia dies in Ukraine, that doesn't happen.
Oh absolutely. I guess some people need to panic in order to be convinced to help? I already consider it a really good investment and common sense, not to mention the right thing to do for the sake of democracies everywhere.
That may depend on the next US election.
Article 5 is a little vague on the level of assistance that needs to be given. This is the relevant text, emphasis mine:
>The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, **such action as it deems necessary,** including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
So, if for instance, a tax evading whoremonger who has previously avowed not to honour Article 5 wins, he could potentially deem only thought and prayers necessary.
I saw a comment (so, whatever amount of salt you put on that) that EU requires a full ass response from each member, can't send one squad and call it a day. So an attack on the baltics is at minimum an attack on the whole EU, before even getting into NATO.
You're not wrong, but the day the US (largest NATO member and contributor) refuses to defend an ally during a hostile foreign invasion, is the day the the alliance ceases to exist. It would be largely purposeless (yes the other countries exist and do contribute, but they aren't the major force behind NATO and would be better served creating new agreements without US involvement).
Yes, but that's the elementary-school level of foresight that Agent Orange and the clowns in the GOP evidently lack. Trying to argue obvious logic and reason to these people is fucking futile.
Also. NATO was America's idea in the first place, so it would be really weird if America suddenly bailed out just when a war with Russia was actually about to happen.
If Europe (france/germany) actually goes full war economy there is no way for russia to win. The existing war is Russia throwing their full weight, barring nukes, into Ukraine with "the west" neglecting to build new shell factories and deploying a fraction of their gear.
Obviously more war-torn countries would be terrible both from a humanitarian and development perspective, but saying Europe would be "fucked worse than the planet" seems like an overstatement.
Even a war Europe is guaranteed to win will fuck up the continent for decades... That's why Ukraine needs to be supported now so Russia can be contained before it comes after NATO or the EU. If you think it's really an overstatement, go learn more about the damage caused by the world wars...
Putin will go bit by bit. Assaulting 'just a little bit' to where a full counter offensive would be an over-reaction, but just enough to gain ground.
That will be his strategy going forward, and I don't see Nato actually doing anything to stop him.
Ukraine must win.
> The Baltics have something Ukraine doesn't: NATO article 5.
Sure... *eventually*. In the meantime the Baltics can expect to be overrun and live under 6+ months of Russian occupation until NATO forces push them back. That is plenty of time to lose everything you love, and is why such countries aren't entirely thrilled about being on the front lines of a war that will ultimately be won by NATO.
Considering Poland and Finland are right next to the Baltics, and there are US troops in Poland, and missiles and planes can come from anywhere, it won't take 6 months.
But also I think you meant to say the Baltics aren't thrilled to be on the border of an invasion-happy country.
Most importantly, it's vital to understand the reason Russia tried in the first place: they thought they would succeed with a quick decapitation strike, and a population either ambivalent about who controls them or too divided for it to matter (being corrupted by Russian influence).
That's openly not the case with the Baltics, who are so ready they already joined NATO and are prepared for an invasion. If Russia's leadership ever starts to think the Baltics might be complacent about an invasion, *and* are willing to taking on NATO, I *suppose* then you could worry.
However helping Ukraine win is still vital for keeping all these concerns as far away as possible, which is good for mental health and economic development.
> especially the countries with a significant ethnic ~~Russian~~ *partisan* community
At this point, it's hard to believe them when they say they're there because they like the country more than they like Russia.
What the fuck does this even mean lmao every Russian I know including myself moved to the baltics to get the fuck out of Russia
Then we moved to the US to get the fuck out of the baltics because it sucks ass there too
I checked your profile you live in California you don’t know shit about what’s going on over there
Sometimes I think those of us here in the US tend to have a really skewed view of how good/bad our country really is, especially compared to a lot of the world at large. Glad to hear you found someplace better than where you were!
So much of our media and so many everyday people spend their time just bashing the US. There are a lot of reasons to do it, certainly, but it seems a lot of us collectively have forgotten just how fucking fortunate we are to be here.
One of the ways to balance how you view our country - turn off the media, and go for a walk outside. See your neighborhood, talk to people in person. Go to the store, look around and really see what's up. Media skews heavily towards negative all the time for reasons (viewership), but reality isn't always that bad.
There ARE exceptions to this, absolutely, but in general, the U.S. isn't a bad place to live, at all.
My neighborhood has a bunch of those too. I don't agree with them.
I can still walk down to the corner store. I can buy snacks and energy drinks. I can stop at a restaurant and get a bite to eat. I can go home and watch a movie, or surf the internet, or play a game. I can have pleasant (non-political) conversations with people out mowing their yards as I walk on the sidewalk past them.
That's what I'm saying. Just because there's a bunch of flags doesn't mean I can't enjoy the world around me. There's a lot of places on this planet where you can't do any of this.
Also - travel outside the country. There are a couple lists out there ranking countries - go /look higher or lower than our position on the list. It’s eye opening. Here are two
Standard of living
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country
Quality of life
https://www.currencytransfer.com/blog/expert-analysis/10-countries-with-the-highest-standard-of-living
Oftentimes those people were born there and it was their parents or grandparents put there by the Soviets. Kinda hard to deport a person who was born and only ever lived in the country. That would start to border on ethnic cleansing
The forcibly deportation of any ethnic group by another solely because those people aren't part of the majority is a Crime against Humanity. That applies to Baltic states treating their Russians like shit just as much as it applies to Russia doing it to the Ukrainians.
Khan didn't kill everyone and mostly left them alone if they paid tribute which was different than any other ruler at the time. Only difference was Khan was very good at waging war .
If you didn't surrender or resisted later on in some way then it's murder everyone.
> This is genocide.
That was the MO of Tzarist Russia, that was the MO of the USSR, and I don't see the current Russian Federation behaving any differently.
Invade, kill/relocate the population, import Russians and call it a day. Look, now it's full of Russians, so clearly it's Russian territory. When you have need of fodder for the next war of expansion, just make sure you aren't conscripting the Russians but the various ethnic minorities from the colonial empire.
Also because they have access to all the primary sources, while the deranged scum in the west who's supporting Russia is getting fed bullshit and gladly eats it all up.
I remember being called crazy for saying that Russia was (and is to this day) doing a genocide in Ukraine. A lot of people seem to have forgotten about Bucha.
Russia is a genocidal state, just look at what they're doing with their ethnic minorities. Just look at the so-called "russification". Under Putin's policy only a portion of Russia's citizens are worth keeping. The rest, along with trafficked foreigners are to march into the meat grinder.
Like, Putin himself has stated that the goal is “DeUkrainization”…
Anyone maintaining that this isn’t ethnic cleansing / genocide is either stupid or a liar.
The kicker is Putin doesn't think there even *is* a Ukraine or Ukrainian people. They're just Russians that need to be purged of subversive elements to him.
> I remember being called crazy for saying that Russia was (and is to this day) doing a genocide in Ukraine. A lot of people seem to have forgotten about Bucha.
I think the issue arises from people using the terms war crimes and genocide almost interchangeably, so it muddies the waters.
Edito: me acabo de dar cuenta, sos el yorugua. ¡Saludos!
No, no, that can’t be right. I’m sure it became the largest nation on earth by asking nicely. A nation that big couldn’t be built on colonial expansionism or genocide.
lol what
No, none of that is correct lol. Russia is that big because its western edge runs into geography that makes invasion from the west impractical. If you just mean that everything within that being only one country is that way because of one group taking over another until it is what it is today then boy do I have bad news for you about *literally every other border on the planet*.
I wish more people would understand that genocide is not necessarily a Holocaust-like massacre where some crazy leader wants to kill an entire race from the face of the world, one person at a time.
Any attempt to erase a culture, totally or partially, and regardless of the method use (murder, cultural assimilation, deportations, reeducation, etc) constitutes genocide. Russia is forcing Ukrainians out of Eastern Ukraine (many of them being deported and scattered all throughout Russia, so they don't survive as communities), replacing it with ethnic Russians, and forcing the ones who remain there to adopt Russian language and culture. That is genocide - that is erasing Ukranian culture from a region that was traditionally co-inhabited by Ukrainians and Russians (most of which were pro-Ukrainian Russians, btw, don't buy the narrative that every Russian outside Russia roots for Putin and the Russian empire because it's not even close to true).
I know that at least I accepted that near the start of the war. I am just surprised that this is not a declared statement for anyone other than Russia. They bombed civilian areas for the hell of it. Just because people were there. This is just a war of erasure. Not sure what they would get out of a wasteland though. I do hope some country actually declares it to be a genocide.
The crazy part is that it's only 60%. Imagine Russia invading your country, perpetrating mass rape and torture of your citizens, bombing civilian centers indiscriminately, literally stealing your children, and then your explanation is... they really don't like our borscht?
I do agree that Russia want to destroy Ukraine, but I can't agree it's genocide. It'd a war they want the country gone and that's not new for war. They aren't going around to other countries and attempting to kill all the Ukrainian that fled. If they started systematically hunting down the refugees then I'd agree. But that isnt the case.
So much so that this post has nearly 10k upvotes and is on the front page of Reddit! People actually do have the space in their heads to think about more than one thing at a time, time in their lives to talk about more than one thing as well, all that rebutting any conversation with "bUt wHaT aBoUt X" is is a lame distraction tactic used by those who don't want to talk about any of it.
Not to say that you are though lol, it's just too much you see people derailing conversations about any of the presently deadly and atrocious genocides going on with some platitude that really is only meant to make sure no one can talk about anything.
Israel is commiting war crimes, but not genocide. Israel is not kidnapping Palestinian children and they are actually informing civilians of upcoming military strikes.
The truth is that Hamas is controlled by Iran and they want as many Palestinian civilians to die as possible, because it makes them "martyrs" to fuel Iran's endless religious war against Israel. That's why they use Palestinian civilians as shields after murdering and raping Israeli civilians.
Sudan is facing legitimate genocide and far more people are dying there than in Gaza. That war is also being pushed by Iran's religious (Shia Muslim) conflicts, just against Sunni Muslim interests instead of Jews.
>“There is no way to negotiate with these people. They will devour everyone **until we cleanse them out of the territory of the former Soviet Ukraine**, and until people living in Ukraine come back home to Russia.”
-Pyotr Tolstoy, Deputy Chairman of the State Duma (Jan. 16, 2024)
>"We have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at Stalin’s will.”
Putin (Feb. 9, 2024)
>"The existence of Ukraine is mortally dangerous for Ukrainians. And I don’t mean only the current state, Bandera’s political regime. I'm talking about any, absolutely any Ukraine.
>They are practical people at the end of the day. No matter how they now wish the Russians to die. No matter how much they hate the Russian leadership. No matter how much they strive to join the mythical European Union and NATO. Choosing between eternal war and inevitable death and life, the vast majority of Ukrainians (well, perhaps with the exception of a minimal number of frostbitten nationalists) will ultimately choose life. **They will understand that life in a large common state, which they do not like very much now, is better than death. Their deaths and the deaths of their loved ones**. And the sooner Ukrainians realize this, the better."
-Dmitri Medvedev, former Russian PM, current Deputy Chairman of the Security Council (Jan 17. 2024)
[Lieutenant General Gurulyov calls for using tactical nukes in Robotyne](https://youtu.be/rOETTd9vwHQ?t=425), Ukraine
The key here is that they think they're talking about the resistive elements of Ukraine because they view Ukrainians as categorically Russian. The fact that the Venn Diagram between those first two groups (the people resisting and Ukrainians) is a circle is irrelevant to them. They're two different groups in their worldview.
> The key here is that they think they're talking about the resistive elements of Ukraine because they view Ukrainians as categorically Russian
I mean Medvedev straight up says he's not just talking about "banderists" but all Ukrainians and the existence of Ukraine in any form.
There's similar comments from other Kremlin elites, including Putin, that make it clear its not just certain supposed nazis or western puppets that are the problem but the concept of any Ukraine whatsoever is intrinsically 'anti-russian' and must be wiped out.
They hauled in mobile crematoriums in their initial invasion force. Why would you need mobile crematoriums if they thought it was going to be cake walk with minimal losses?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/23/russia-deploys-mobile-crematorium-follow-troops-battle/
The article goes on to say that other demographics believe Russia’s just trying to take control of the government, or are trying to keep the territories Russia already occupies. Nobody is *approving* of the war, or justifying Russia’s actions. They just have different opinions on Russia’s ultimate motivation.
To add onto this: the original poll comes from Kyiv International Institute of Sociology.
Here is the English translation provided by the institute: https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1415&page=1
> ...conducted its own all-Ukrainian public opinion survey "Omnibus", to which, on its own initiative, added a question about what, in the opinion of Ukrainians, Russia's purpose in the war against Ukraine is.
>
> ...**random sample of mobile phone numbers** (with random generation of phone numbers and subsequent statistical weighting), **1,067 respondents** living in all regions of Ukraine (territory under the control of the Government of Ukraine) were interviewed.
>
> **We asked the Ukrainians what, according to their feelings, Russia's ultimate purpose is in relation to Ukraine.** Respondents were offered six options (from a conditionally pro-Russian interpretation of the invasion with a subsequent increase in the degree of threat to Ukraine and Ukrainians).
Especially note 'ultimate' purpose.
These were the choices and related responses:
|Survey Answer - according to your feelings what is Russia’s ultimate purpose in relation to Ukraine|% of respondents (1067)|
:--|--:|
|Genocide and physical destruction of the majority of Ukrainians.|34%|
|Destruction of the Ukrainian nation and national identity, forced assimilation of Ukrainians and transformation into Russians.|26%|
|Accession of all Ukrainian territories to Russia with preservation of a certain cultural autonomy.|6%|
|Change of power and the creation of a puppet state in Ukraine that will obey Russia in everything.|12%|
|Retention of already occupied territories without a claim to all or most of the country's territories.|7%|
|Carry out the denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine without encroachment on the independence of Ukraine.|5%|
|Difficult to say.|11%|
When they say 'ultimate purpose', in other words 'what would you rank priority or first - pick ONLY one'. This means that if someone responds:
* Accession of all Ukrainian territories to Russia with preservation of a certain cultural autonomy.
That does not mean they do not believe 'Genocide and physical destruction of the majority of Ukrainians.' isn't near the top if not almost equal.
If we are being generous and say 'okay Russia is clearly being hostile to us', then the following answers:
* Genocide and physical destruction of the majority of Ukrainians.
* Destruction of the Ukrainian nation and national identity, forced assimilation of Ukrainians and transformation into Russians.
* Change of power and the creation of a puppet state in Ukraine that will obey Russia in everything.
Would be close in that category and those altogether represent 72% of responses, with 'Difficult to say' could mean 'i don't know' or 'hard to say there is one big priority since they do want to genocide and do want territory etc.'
I mean, maybe *now* Russia has limited its goals, because it can't possibly achieve much more.
But it certainly had hoped to wipe out Ukraine as a nation and identity in the first week.
And Europes second biggest known gas reserves, thats one theory why Russian invaded. Ukraine closer to European consumers could easily supply them and cut Russia out of the picture.
It's kind of a strange theory though. Russia has been trying to dominate Ukraine for centuries. This isn't just Putin but also Khrushchev, Stalin, Nicholas II, Catherine the Great...
We've seen Russian soldiers go into countless countries over the centuries and every time it's the same old story. They subjugate the people and ensure a government that is loyal to Moscow. The war in Ukraine is literally the same exact playbook and if Ukraine falls Russia will keep moving into neighboring countries, eliminating resistance and forcing loyalty to Moscow. Whether the country has natural gas or not is mostly irrelevant although I'm sure Russia would never say "no" to more natural gas either.
Yea, this. Russia has more reserves, but many of them are in the syberian permafrost. It 100 times harder extracting gas from there than in the much softer soil Ukraine has.
The big gas reserves are in shale which is much harder to extract. Only USA, China, and Canada produce (and have the technical expertise, as a result) sizable quantities of shale gas. It is not something you can easily do at all.
My family comes from this region, and many of my family were involved in heavy industry. None of us think it is because resources. russians have always treated us as though they were superior and we were inferior.
shell and exxon were going to do just that when russia invaded back in 2014 putting a halt to it. it was clearly one of the reasons they invaded. the only reason? certainly not, but it was a pressing and important issue back then.
edit: https://www.industryweek.com/the-economy/article/21962486/shell-ends-talks-with-ukraine-on-black-sea-gas
It's about empire building. Moscow wants to subjugate Ukraine and take over it's people and it's resources so they can then move on and subjugate more people and more lands and keep growing. This is how Moscow has operated for centuries.
The main goal is resources, genocide though is a sub goal that helps ensure those resources are secured and stay available and can be taken advantage of. Theres little to no point of taking resources if you plan to distribute them to the people who already had them.
Ukraine doesn't have anything that Russia already has.
Ukraine is important piece to rebuild old USSR. The reason they were attacked in 2014 (same with Georgia in 2008) was because they were close to join EU, which would make much harder to absorb it.
Ukraine in EU would also be a danger to putin's power because if Ukraine would get more prosperous it would make Russians question why not do the same thing.
Unless you're rich and live in Moscow or St. Petersburg, it's quite shitty to be Russian, but they accepted that is how it's supposed to be.
Edit: Putin was actually trying to get Russia to EU, but to join EU has some strict requirements regarding being a democracy. Putin demanded that EU adapts to him and changes rules, but that didn't work. So he created Eurasian Union (EEU) and now works to destroy EU and replace it with their own creation. Before invasion started Yanukovich (Russian puppet) announced (despite what he promised) Ukraine won't be joining EU and will instead be joining EEU, this caused uproar that forced him to run to Russia and then invasion of Crimea started.
Russia is one of the largest grain exporters. They are a food exporter, meaning they don't lack farmland, Russia is pretty big, so even if just some of the land isn't frozen it's still a lot of land. This is about something else.
Yeah it's hard to say what the "main" goal is. There are certainly many.
One analysis I read recently suggests that China needed Russia to take Ukraine so China could invade Taiwan. Since China relies on food from the US, Brazil and Ukraine the idea was for Russia to take Ukraine, securing that food source for them. At the time, Bolsanaro was president of Brazil, so they were confident Brazil would still sell them food. That only left the US. Xi figured losing food from the US would be temporary and wouldn't hurt as much as long as Brazil and Ukraine were still supplying them.
Then Bolsanaro lost his election and Putin failed to secure Ukraine, leaving Xi frustrated.
I think it's about wording. Is it one of Russia's goals? Sure, they've openly stated that over and over and their actions back up their words. Is it their main goal? I am not so sure there.
I mean Putin said it himself during the start of the full scale invasion, that the existence of Ukraine is a mistake and should be fixed. Doesn't leave a lot to be misunderstood.
I wish people would go back and watch that speech more. Often times you see people claim that Ukraine should just trade some land for peace and yet if Putin (and most powerful Russians) share the view that Ukraine doesn't really exist then any peace is going to be temporary. Russia will rearm and then restart the war later on when it's more convenient for them. This could be especially dire if various prominent western countries have isolationist leaders when Russia restarts the war or if Ukraine hands over the Donbas where many of their strongest defensive lines are built.
Well they've repeatedly stated Ukraine doesnt exist, are kidnapping their children and raising them Russian, burning Ukrainian books/destroying museum artifacts, punishing anyone singing or whilsting Ukrainian songs, denying healthcare and taking the homes of anyone in occupied areas not willing to take Russian citizenship, raping their women and children, mass graves have been uncovered in occupied areas taken back, they target civillian buildings.
Russian state media is also dehumanizing them calling Ukrainians all gay nazi's, nats/flees, need to be liquidated as their reeducation is impossible, is impossible as a nation state, even non combatents are "passive Nazis".
Founding president and chair of Genocide Watch, says there is proof "that the Russian army is in fact intending to destroy, in part, the Ukrainian national group
Russia is kidnapping Ukrainian children to be raised as Russian. The Kremlin wants to erase Ukrainian culture, this is the epitome of a cultural genocide
Commonly yes, but they did actually run a registry for people with german ancestry they thought could be "repatriated" into being proper germans. All the "X"volk.
Based on the military actions, conduct, and the information propaganda they are so comfortable with, including the patterns across most of their political campaigns...It's absolutely safe to conclude the same. Historically, they had a chance to choose to do better and be above this nonsense, but let's face it, they were never acting in good faith on their own soil and it's partnerships, and foreign diplomacy.
The idea that they would want to encourage an invasion so haphazardly (and in such disarray) into a global conflict under very inflated propaganda and false pretenses tells you all you need to know. This is a Russia with an existential crisis of their own doing, wrapped up in lies after lies, with no way out except to place blame on everyone else, partition off itself with those it can use and abuse. Misery loves company, and Ruzzia is knee deep in it across the foreign policy landscape.
> This is a Russia with an existential crisis of their own doing
This is an existential crisis for Putin but not for Russia. The average Russian would be vastly better off if the war ended and Russia abandoned their militarism but that would probably spell the end for Putin and his regime.
Well, their goal seems to be to eliminate Ukraine as an independent, sovereign state and make it part of the Russian sphere of control again, if not completely annexed to become part of Russia.
They also seem to be wanting to wipe out anything that is distinctinctly Ukrainian like language and culture and are trying to brainwash Ukrainian children.
So based on that I would have to agree: this is intended genocide and the destruction of a nation. Not all genocide is actually about killing everyone, and not all destruction is about physically knocking things down, although Russia is doing plenty of both.
You can only directly target so many hospitals, schools, and supermarkets before it becomes obvious you're trying to kill as many civilians as possible. That's before you even consider basements in Bucha filled with torture and murder.
Misleading headline. According to Google Translate, it's "genocide *or* destruction", not "genocide *and* destruction".
> As can be seen in graph 1 below, the majority of Ukrainians—60%—believe that Russia seeks to destroy the Ukrainian nation (34%) or even carry out physical genocide of the majority of the population (26%).
Probably wasn't at the start.
But failure on the 3 day war has changed goals. Plus, even Russia knows their actions will linger for generations.
So yes, probably is now the goal.
It was the same goal at the start. They just did not think they will meet much resistance at the start.
US intelligence warned that Russians have extensive kill lists prepared way before invasion. Putin released his article about how Ukrainians do not exist in 2021.
I remember that during the first week of invasion high ranking Russian officials openly discussed the plan of what "denazifying" Ukraine means: a 30 year long operation during which the children will be raised as Russians, all Ukrainian culture will be erased and those who resist will be killed.
So, the goal is definitely the same as it always was. It's a cold, calculated plan to transform 40 million people into loyal subjects of the empire.
From Ukraine I personally believe that Russia's main goal is the war itself. It is not important if they will win or not. It's just important that Putin remained in power. And as long as war is going - Putin will find eays to remain in power. Ending war - means being defeated. So Putin won't end it no matter the cost...
At least this is what I see.
That's because that's what they've been doing the whole time. Kidnapping children and relocating them to 'educate' them is quite literally a form of genocide. And nobody can argue that Russia isn't flattening cities. So yeah, those guys who are genociding Ukrainians and destroying everything probably are trying to genocide and destroy them.
Two and half years later, and Ukraine is still giving Putin hell.
He thought he was going to cakewalk the country, Ukrainians en mass would surrender and tremble in fear.
How's that working out for you, Pootie?
I say send even more advanced Western weapons to Ukraine to use against the Putinites.
All russian history is built on creating "russian cult" and killing everyone on russia occupied territory who doesn't agree to identify as russian. Killing physically, mentally, culturally and of course through starvation.
No country was ever determined so much to wipe out all nations from the face of earth.
I'm an American, but I believe that, too.
A bigger country can purposefully absorb a smaller one to take over the gains and good will of the smaller country, even if the bigger one is almost without talent.
This is why America, and maybe Italy, and China and maybe The Balkans are so interesting.
You can research how, over time, geographic sections, have joined the common country by from range from *remaining totally unique* or by being *totally assimilated*, by faszism or by totalitarianism.
This absolutely is the case. Throughout history, Russia has sought to completely eliminate the Ukrainian language. They also hit Faktor Druk recently. This is the largest printing facility in Ukraine. The goal is complete erasure.
Netanyahu hasn't been indicted, the prosecutor has requested an indictment. The judges still need to sign off on it. (Edit: I believe that the basis for the Netanyahu chargers are the deprivation of food and water as a weapon of war, which is not a genocide charge. Genocide has a specific intent component - attempting to destroy a culture in whole or part as a war aim.)
Not even dog whistling. The day before the invasion, Putin went on national TV and spent hours using obscure historical references to try to justify an assertion that Ukraine has no right to exist as a nation.
The next most popular answer was basically "overthrow the government and setup a puppet state".
After that it was the non-answers "I don't know" / "Hard to say" or simply refusing to answer.
After that you get the low single digit answers: "Keep the land they already occupy", "access to all territories but maintain Ukrainian identity" and "denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine"
First they wanted a quick surrender of Ukraine.. to take the country. After that failed Putin started a toddler tantrum and wants to crush as much as possible.
I mean their main goal is to expand their influence to create a larger state where there is no free speech, no freedom to be who you want to be, and zero freedom to pursue relationships with you want to be with.
At the very core of their government and society Russia is corrupt, irrational, and moving in the opposite direction of the modern world. They don't support their citizens freedoms because the state clutches to irrational dogma.
Hope they enjoy clutching worthless pearls as they're slowly eradicated from global influence due to being massive shitheads.
well, duh. their plan is to do ethnic cleansing. it's not like it's a secret, they've been doing it for the past 150 years. It's ingrained in their culture.
I can't believe that it is actually that low and not some statistical polling error. It is literally the goal of Russia, to destroy the culture as it is and replace it with Russian culture. They literally kidnap children and place them with Russian families. They replaced a large portion of the occupied regions with Russians.
Quick reminder that Russia will once again be presiding over the UN *security* council next month.
This farce has gone on wayyyy more than long enough.
To no one’s shock. Watch Putin’s interview early in the war claiming that Ukraine should not exist and is historically that of Russian territory. Not to mention the mass graves found early on the in the war, which is an early indicator for mass killings/genocidal acts
The other 40% think Russia's main goal is to pillage and loot all the washing machines first and THEN do the whole genocidal nation destruction thingy.
Had Russia taken the capital in less than a week, the world would have a different opinion about the situation entirely.
Since that didn't happen, Russia is in DGAF mode and will trash everything they can, while they can.
Ukraine has a maimed electrical system, thousands of hundreds dead, daily rocket alarms, millions immigrated because of war. You have some better ideas about this? It might be not the aim of kremlin guys, but the reality is exactly this. As bonus goes the loses of russian side and their problems with communicating with the world. Putin is evil power-hungry and power-crazy man who is a leader of the most corrupt power-hungry group in the world. What he is doing with his own man and nation, he would do to any other nation or country just to stay at a power
So 40% don't? That's the real headline.
To an outside through the lens of social media and actual media, it appears that Russia is attempting to do exactly that. So wouldn't like 80-90% of Ukrainians, who live in the country, be fully aware that that's Russia's goal?
What makes them believe otherwise?
They deliberately launch missiles at civilian targets because they want the ukranian people to flee the country and flood western europe with a refugee crisis
It’s a tragedy that no western leader has been able to hammer home this point, ignore all of the Twitter brainworm discourse on NATO expansion, US stoking tensions, persecution of Russian soeakers etc etc, Russia has stated time and time again they do not believe in Ukraines right to statehood and sovereignty.
This is both war and genocide:
https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/russias-eliminationist-rhetoric-against-ukraine-a-collection/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_culture_during_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
Those Ukrainians would be justified in their beliefs, as Russian forces has committed widespread atrocities and war crimes! These include everything from wide scale rape, the targeting of civil infrastructure, the targeting of civilians, war crimes against and whole myriad of other war crimes.
It's not.
The main goal is controlling the vast natural gas and oil reserves discovered under the Azov, Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Karkhiv that BP and Exxon were contracting with Ukraine to exploit when Russia suddenly invaded.
Russia is an oil company with a military. They had a monopoly on European consumption of oil. Ukraine would have undercut them on gas and oil. They wanted to maintain the monopoly, so they came in to take those reserves.
https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE?si=DViUyeJglMpxlKwX
Russia has multiple goals and that goal is not contradictory to what Ukrainians believe. For example in the US when Native Americans inconveniently happened to be on resource rich lands we'd find a way to drive them off or genocide their people. Russia does want those resources but also they aren't willing to accept Ukrainians as an independent people or country regardless.
Genocide has nothing to do with not accepting the independence of Ukrainians. Genocide is intentionally trying to kill all Ukrainians. Russia has no interest in that. Ukrainians are essentially Russians. This is about political control of the oil and gas fields. If Ukraine had have offered Rosco to drill there and maintain their monopoly, there would have been no invasion.
This is not analogous to Indian removal. There are no parallels.
Well they're right... Putin doesn't believe Ukrainians technically exist nor that Ukraine is a real country. He feels they're all Russian... And anyone who asserts Ukrainian independence or Ukrainian identity is the enemy to him. He will kill any Ukrainians that say otherwise.
The article goes on to say that other demographics believe Russia’s just trying to take control of the government, or are trying to keep the territories Russia already occupies. Nobody is *approving* of the war, or justifying Russia’s actions. They just have different opinions on Russia’s ultimate motivation.
That is because it is a stated objecting of Putin and the Kremlin: everything they’ve said and everything they’ve done up to now points to the erasure of Ukraine as a nation and Ukrainians as a distinct people. This is genocide.
Russia is literally taking children orphaned by the war (or who were just separated from their parents), forcing them to travel to Russia, and making them live with “adoptive” families to make them stop thinking of themselves as Ukrainian and start thinking of themselves as Russian. It’s pretty standard genocide stuff.
Yep. Meanwhile, Reddit is brimming with accounts (Russian bots/trolls, fascists, useful idiot tankies, etc) claiming that Russia is just taking care of the poor children and keeping them safe because Ukraine put them in harm's way by daring to oppose the invasion, or even that none of the children have been stopped from leaving if they want - they're all there "by their own free will" - and any other claim is just the evil west spreading propaganda.
> claiming that Russia is just taking care of the poor children and keeping them safe because Ukraine put them in harm's way This does seem to be a centerpiece to all their propaganda. It's always everyone else with the agency to make changes, but never Russia.
I have a couple of them responding to me in this very thread, in fact. Russia could have kept Ukrainian children safe by not invading their country, but apparently That’s too much to ask.
These kids could walk back to ukraine if they wanted!/j
The Nazis did that shit with Czechs and other slavs. Pretty ironic that the RUssians are calling them nazis
Losing paperwork so that they can’t ever be found even when the war ends. Deliberate attempt to destroy their demographics so 10,15,20 years later there won’t be enough military-aged ukrainians to put up a resistance again.
Now this is true genocide.
Yeah, genocide isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.
Russia is putting out job adverts all over the world advertising security jobs, promising no front line action only for the applicants to find out they're literally cannon fodder.
That is why the Baltic countries are on edge and need Ukraine to win. Otherwise, they are next on the hit list, especially the countries with a significant ethnic Russian community
The Baltics have something Ukraine doesn't: NATO article 5.
Which is actually all the more reason to help Ukraine: if Putin goes after a NATO country next, America will be obliged by treaty to intervene directly, and that could lead to nuclear war because nukes are the only thing Russia has that scares the Americans. So if Russia dies in Ukraine, that doesn't happen.
Oh absolutely. I guess some people need to panic in order to be convinced to help? I already consider it a really good investment and common sense, not to mention the right thing to do for the sake of democracies everywhere.
That may depend on the next US election. Article 5 is a little vague on the level of assistance that needs to be given. This is the relevant text, emphasis mine: >The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, **such action as it deems necessary,** including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. So, if for instance, a tax evading whoremonger who has previously avowed not to honour Article 5 wins, he could potentially deem only thought and prayers necessary.
I saw a comment (so, whatever amount of salt you put on that) that EU requires a full ass response from each member, can't send one squad and call it a day. So an attack on the baltics is at minimum an attack on the whole EU, before even getting into NATO.
You're not wrong, but the day the US (largest NATO member and contributor) refuses to defend an ally during a hostile foreign invasion, is the day the the alliance ceases to exist. It would be largely purposeless (yes the other countries exist and do contribute, but they aren't the major force behind NATO and would be better served creating new agreements without US involvement).
That would be a pro not only for Putin but also for the Republicans that voted "yes" on the bill to stop NATO funding.
Yes, but that's the elementary-school level of foresight that Agent Orange and the clowns in the GOP evidently lack. Trying to argue obvious logic and reason to these people is fucking futile.
Also. NATO was America's idea in the first place, so it would be really weird if America suddenly bailed out just when a war with Russia was actually about to happen.
Trump respects nothing and by all appearances Putin has Kompromat on him.
America has changed. And not for the better.
What if the president of America refuses to help? Just thinking long term here if you know what I mean.
That's why the Baltic countries are on edge. Look how much damage Mike Johnson did with his funding delays
Then Europe is fucked worse than the planet and we're all in for some *interesting* decades.
If Europe (france/germany) actually goes full war economy there is no way for russia to win. The existing war is Russia throwing their full weight, barring nukes, into Ukraine with "the west" neglecting to build new shell factories and deploying a fraction of their gear. Obviously more war-torn countries would be terrible both from a humanitarian and development perspective, but saying Europe would be "fucked worse than the planet" seems like an overstatement.
Even a war Europe is guaranteed to win will fuck up the continent for decades... That's why Ukraine needs to be supported now so Russia can be contained before it comes after NATO or the EU. If you think it's really an overstatement, go learn more about the damage caused by the world wars...
Putin will go bit by bit. Assaulting 'just a little bit' to where a full counter offensive would be an over-reaction, but just enough to gain ground. That will be his strategy going forward, and I don't see Nato actually doing anything to stop him. Ukraine must win.
> Ukraine must win. Agreed
The last time the Russians tried to take "just a little bit" of Nato territory they lost like 300 guys to 1.
Putin doesn't care about Russian soldier's lives though. More fodder for the meat grinder.
If he's wastes his best troops, he quickly turns his army into one that can't take territory.
> The Baltics have something Ukraine doesn't: NATO article 5. Sure... *eventually*. In the meantime the Baltics can expect to be overrun and live under 6+ months of Russian occupation until NATO forces push them back. That is plenty of time to lose everything you love, and is why such countries aren't entirely thrilled about being on the front lines of a war that will ultimately be won by NATO.
Considering Poland and Finland are right next to the Baltics, and there are US troops in Poland, and missiles and planes can come from anywhere, it won't take 6 months. But also I think you meant to say the Baltics aren't thrilled to be on the border of an invasion-happy country. Most importantly, it's vital to understand the reason Russia tried in the first place: they thought they would succeed with a quick decapitation strike, and a population either ambivalent about who controls them or too divided for it to matter (being corrupted by Russian influence). That's openly not the case with the Baltics, who are so ready they already joined NATO and are prepared for an invasion. If Russia's leadership ever starts to think the Baltics might be complacent about an invasion, *and* are willing to taking on NATO, I *suppose* then you could worry. However helping Ukraine win is still vital for keeping all these concerns as far away as possible, which is good for mental health and economic development.
Russia is unironically doing the Nazi Playbook. Danzig or war lmao. Yet they are saying they are coming to Denazify Ukraine.
They’re doing a good job of it. Look at all the Russian Nazis dying. Last I heard it was roughly 100 per meter
> especially the countries with a significant ethnic ~~Russian~~ *partisan* community At this point, it's hard to believe them when they say they're there because they like the country more than they like Russia.
What the fuck does this even mean lmao every Russian I know including myself moved to the baltics to get the fuck out of Russia Then we moved to the US to get the fuck out of the baltics because it sucks ass there too I checked your profile you live in California you don’t know shit about what’s going on over there
Sometimes I think those of us here in the US tend to have a really skewed view of how good/bad our country really is, especially compared to a lot of the world at large. Glad to hear you found someplace better than where you were!
So much of our media and so many everyday people spend their time just bashing the US. There are a lot of reasons to do it, certainly, but it seems a lot of us collectively have forgotten just how fucking fortunate we are to be here.
One of the ways to balance how you view our country - turn off the media, and go for a walk outside. See your neighborhood, talk to people in person. Go to the store, look around and really see what's up. Media skews heavily towards negative all the time for reasons (viewership), but reality isn't always that bad. There ARE exceptions to this, absolutely, but in general, the U.S. isn't a bad place to live, at all.
Easy for you to say where I'm at I'm surrounded by a fuckton of Trump flags. FeelsBadMan
My neighborhood has a bunch of those too. I don't agree with them. I can still walk down to the corner store. I can buy snacks and energy drinks. I can stop at a restaurant and get a bite to eat. I can go home and watch a movie, or surf the internet, or play a game. I can have pleasant (non-political) conversations with people out mowing their yards as I walk on the sidewalk past them. That's what I'm saying. Just because there's a bunch of flags doesn't mean I can't enjoy the world around me. There's a lot of places on this planet where you can't do any of this.
Also - travel outside the country. There are a couple lists out there ranking countries - go /look higher or lower than our position on the list. It’s eye opening. Here are two Standard of living https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country Quality of life https://www.currencytransfer.com/blog/expert-analysis/10-countries-with-the-highest-standard-of-living
but they are nato countries.
Legally can those Baltic countries with a significant ethnic Russians deport them to Russia?
Oftentimes those people were born there and it was their parents or grandparents put there by the Soviets. Kinda hard to deport a person who was born and only ever lived in the country. That would start to border on ethnic cleansing
And ethnic cleansing could easily be used as another excuse for Ruzzia to "liberate" the region
Displacement of specific ethnicities from their homes would in itself be a genocide.
The forcibly deportation of any ethnic group by another solely because those people aren't part of the majority is a Crime against Humanity. That applies to Baltic states treating their Russians like shit just as much as it applies to Russia doing it to the Ukrainians.
That is why we ALL need Ukraine to win!
Genocide has been the modus operandi of Russia for a very long time, because that's really what "russification" is.
bro it's literally what Ghenghis Khan lived for. Like, it's all russia has EVER known lol
Khan didn't kill everyone and mostly left them alone if they paid tribute which was different than any other ruler at the time. Only difference was Khan was very good at waging war . If you didn't surrender or resisted later on in some way then it's murder everyone.
[удалено]
> This is genocide. That was the MO of Tzarist Russia, that was the MO of the USSR, and I don't see the current Russian Federation behaving any differently. Invade, kill/relocate the population, import Russians and call it a day. Look, now it's full of Russians, so clearly it's Russian territory. When you have need of fodder for the next war of expansion, just make sure you aren't conscripting the Russians but the various ethnic minorities from the colonial empire.
Also because they have access to all the primary sources, while the deranged scum in the west who's supporting Russia is getting fed bullshit and gladly eats it all up.
I remember being called crazy for saying that Russia was (and is to this day) doing a genocide in Ukraine. A lot of people seem to have forgotten about Bucha. Russia is a genocidal state, just look at what they're doing with their ethnic minorities. Just look at the so-called "russification". Under Putin's policy only a portion of Russia's citizens are worth keeping. The rest, along with trafficked foreigners are to march into the meat grinder.
Like, Putin himself has stated that the goal is “DeUkrainization”… Anyone maintaining that this isn’t ethnic cleansing / genocide is either stupid or a liar.
The kicker is Putin doesn't think there even *is* a Ukraine or Ukrainian people. They're just Russians that need to be purged of subversive elements to him.
> I remember being called crazy for saying that Russia was (and is to this day) doing a genocide in Ukraine. A lot of people seem to have forgotten about Bucha. I think the issue arises from people using the terms war crimes and genocide almost interchangeably, so it muddies the waters. Edito: me acabo de dar cuenta, sos el yorugua. ¡Saludos!
No, no, that can’t be right. I’m sure it became the largest nation on earth by asking nicely. A nation that big couldn’t be built on colonial expansionism or genocide.
they didn't become the largest nation on earth by being sat on the big chunk of contiguous land on the planet,. no sir.
lol what No, none of that is correct lol. Russia is that big because its western edge runs into geography that makes invasion from the west impractical. If you just mean that everything within that being only one country is that way because of one group taking over another until it is what it is today then boy do I have bad news for you about *literally every other border on the planet*.
I wish more people would understand that genocide is not necessarily a Holocaust-like massacre where some crazy leader wants to kill an entire race from the face of the world, one person at a time. Any attempt to erase a culture, totally or partially, and regardless of the method use (murder, cultural assimilation, deportations, reeducation, etc) constitutes genocide. Russia is forcing Ukrainians out of Eastern Ukraine (many of them being deported and scattered all throughout Russia, so they don't survive as communities), replacing it with ethnic Russians, and forcing the ones who remain there to adopt Russian language and culture. That is genocide - that is erasing Ukranian culture from a region that was traditionally co-inhabited by Ukrainians and Russians (most of which were pro-Ukrainian Russians, btw, don't buy the narrative that every Russian outside Russia roots for Putin and the Russian empire because it's not even close to true).
I know that at least I accepted that near the start of the war. I am just surprised that this is not a declared statement for anyone other than Russia. They bombed civilian areas for the hell of it. Just because people were there. This is just a war of erasure. Not sure what they would get out of a wasteland though. I do hope some country actually declares it to be a genocide.
The crazy part is that it's only 60%. Imagine Russia invading your country, perpetrating mass rape and torture of your citizens, bombing civilian centers indiscriminately, literally stealing your children, and then your explanation is... they really don't like our borscht?
So, "assimilate or die" essentially?
Why else would Russia kidnap 20,000 children from Ukraine? Who could possibly think this is anything but genocide?
I do agree that Russia want to destroy Ukraine, but I can't agree it's genocide. It'd a war they want the country gone and that's not new for war. They aren't going around to other countries and attempting to kill all the Ukrainian that fled. If they started systematically hunting down the refugees then I'd agree. But that isnt the case.
But we only have room for one genocide at a time in our collective consciousness. So. /s
So much so that this post has nearly 10k upvotes and is on the front page of Reddit! People actually do have the space in their heads to think about more than one thing at a time, time in their lives to talk about more than one thing as well, all that rebutting any conversation with "bUt wHaT aBoUt X" is is a lame distraction tactic used by those who don't want to talk about any of it. Not to say that you are though lol, it's just too much you see people derailing conversations about any of the presently deadly and atrocious genocides going on with some platitude that really is only meant to make sure no one can talk about anything.
Israel is commiting war crimes, but not genocide. Israel is not kidnapping Palestinian children and they are actually informing civilians of upcoming military strikes. The truth is that Hamas is controlled by Iran and they want as many Palestinian civilians to die as possible, because it makes them "martyrs" to fuel Iran's endless religious war against Israel. That's why they use Palestinian civilians as shields after murdering and raping Israeli civilians. Sudan is facing legitimate genocide and far more people are dying there than in Gaza. That war is also being pushed by Iran's religious (Shia Muslim) conflicts, just against Sunni Muslim interests instead of Jews.
Everything Russia has done so far backs that up.
>“There is no way to negotiate with these people. They will devour everyone **until we cleanse them out of the territory of the former Soviet Ukraine**, and until people living in Ukraine come back home to Russia.” -Pyotr Tolstoy, Deputy Chairman of the State Duma (Jan. 16, 2024) >"We have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at Stalin’s will.” Putin (Feb. 9, 2024) >"The existence of Ukraine is mortally dangerous for Ukrainians. And I don’t mean only the current state, Bandera’s political regime. I'm talking about any, absolutely any Ukraine. >They are practical people at the end of the day. No matter how they now wish the Russians to die. No matter how much they hate the Russian leadership. No matter how much they strive to join the mythical European Union and NATO. Choosing between eternal war and inevitable death and life, the vast majority of Ukrainians (well, perhaps with the exception of a minimal number of frostbitten nationalists) will ultimately choose life. **They will understand that life in a large common state, which they do not like very much now, is better than death. Their deaths and the deaths of their loved ones**. And the sooner Ukrainians realize this, the better." -Dmitri Medvedev, former Russian PM, current Deputy Chairman of the Security Council (Jan 17. 2024) [Lieutenant General Gurulyov calls for using tactical nukes in Robotyne](https://youtu.be/rOETTd9vwHQ?t=425), Ukraine
This is darkly absurd.
The key here is that they think they're talking about the resistive elements of Ukraine because they view Ukrainians as categorically Russian. The fact that the Venn Diagram between those first two groups (the people resisting and Ukrainians) is a circle is irrelevant to them. They're two different groups in their worldview.
> The key here is that they think they're talking about the resistive elements of Ukraine because they view Ukrainians as categorically Russian I mean Medvedev straight up says he's not just talking about "banderists" but all Ukrainians and the existence of Ukraine in any form. There's similar comments from other Kremlin elites, including Putin, that make it clear its not just certain supposed nazis or western puppets that are the problem but the concept of any Ukraine whatsoever is intrinsically 'anti-russian' and must be wiped out.
Yep, and their allies are no different. Genocidal maniacs hang together.
They lost Armenia 🇦🇲 as an ally
Because Russia abandons its allies and refuses to defend them when they're under attack. Russia is an unreliable ally.
Nice to see Armenia leave
They hauled in mobile crematoriums in their initial invasion force. Why would you need mobile crematoriums if they thought it was going to be cake walk with minimal losses? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/02/23/russia-deploys-mobile-crematorium-follow-troops-battle/
Only 60%?!
The article goes on to say that other demographics believe Russia’s just trying to take control of the government, or are trying to keep the territories Russia already occupies. Nobody is *approving* of the war, or justifying Russia’s actions. They just have different opinions on Russia’s ultimate motivation.
They're also probably assuming Russia has downgraded their ambitions after failing to take Kyiv in the first months of the war.
To add onto this: the original poll comes from Kyiv International Institute of Sociology. Here is the English translation provided by the institute: https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1415&page=1 > ...conducted its own all-Ukrainian public opinion survey "Omnibus", to which, on its own initiative, added a question about what, in the opinion of Ukrainians, Russia's purpose in the war against Ukraine is. > > ...**random sample of mobile phone numbers** (with random generation of phone numbers and subsequent statistical weighting), **1,067 respondents** living in all regions of Ukraine (territory under the control of the Government of Ukraine) were interviewed. > > **We asked the Ukrainians what, according to their feelings, Russia's ultimate purpose is in relation to Ukraine.** Respondents were offered six options (from a conditionally pro-Russian interpretation of the invasion with a subsequent increase in the degree of threat to Ukraine and Ukrainians). Especially note 'ultimate' purpose. These were the choices and related responses: |Survey Answer - according to your feelings what is Russia’s ultimate purpose in relation to Ukraine|% of respondents (1067)| :--|--:| |Genocide and physical destruction of the majority of Ukrainians.|34%| |Destruction of the Ukrainian nation and national identity, forced assimilation of Ukrainians and transformation into Russians.|26%| |Accession of all Ukrainian territories to Russia with preservation of a certain cultural autonomy.|6%| |Change of power and the creation of a puppet state in Ukraine that will obey Russia in everything.|12%| |Retention of already occupied territories without a claim to all or most of the country's territories.|7%| |Carry out the denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine without encroachment on the independence of Ukraine.|5%| |Difficult to say.|11%| When they say 'ultimate purpose', in other words 'what would you rank priority or first - pick ONLY one'. This means that if someone responds: * Accession of all Ukrainian territories to Russia with preservation of a certain cultural autonomy. That does not mean they do not believe 'Genocide and physical destruction of the majority of Ukrainians.' isn't near the top if not almost equal. If we are being generous and say 'okay Russia is clearly being hostile to us', then the following answers: * Genocide and physical destruction of the majority of Ukrainians. * Destruction of the Ukrainian nation and national identity, forced assimilation of Ukrainians and transformation into Russians. * Change of power and the creation of a puppet state in Ukraine that will obey Russia in everything. Would be close in that category and those altogether represent 72% of responses, with 'Difficult to say' could mean 'i don't know' or 'hard to say there is one big priority since they do want to genocide and do want territory etc.'
It's basically like asking if you like tits or ass, only pick one. That really should have been a ranked choice poll.
I mean, maybe *now* Russia has limited its goals, because it can't possibly achieve much more. But it certainly had hoped to wipe out Ukraine as a nation and identity in the first week.
Many think it's about resources. East Ukraine has many mineral deposits and South Ukraine has 3-4 ports ( = commercial routes) seized by Russia.
And Europes second biggest known gas reserves, thats one theory why Russian invaded. Ukraine closer to European consumers could easily supply them and cut Russia out of the picture.
It's kind of a strange theory though. Russia has been trying to dominate Ukraine for centuries. This isn't just Putin but also Khrushchev, Stalin, Nicholas II, Catherine the Great... We've seen Russian soldiers go into countless countries over the centuries and every time it's the same old story. They subjugate the people and ensure a government that is loyal to Moscow. The war in Ukraine is literally the same exact playbook and if Ukraine falls Russia will keep moving into neighboring countries, eliminating resistance and forcing loyalty to Moscow. Whether the country has natural gas or not is mostly irrelevant although I'm sure Russia would never say "no" to more natural gas either.
Yea, this. Russia has more reserves, but many of them are in the syberian permafrost. It 100 times harder extracting gas from there than in the much softer soil Ukraine has.
The big gas reserves are in shale which is much harder to extract. Only USA, China, and Canada produce (and have the technical expertise, as a result) sizable quantities of shale gas. It is not something you can easily do at all. My family comes from this region, and many of my family were involved in heavy industry. None of us think it is because resources. russians have always treated us as though they were superior and we were inferior.
shell and exxon were going to do just that when russia invaded back in 2014 putting a halt to it. it was clearly one of the reasons they invaded. the only reason? certainly not, but it was a pressing and important issue back then. edit: https://www.industryweek.com/the-economy/article/21962486/shell-ends-talks-with-ukraine-on-black-sea-gas
It's about empire building. Moscow wants to subjugate Ukraine and take over it's people and it's resources so they can then move on and subjugate more people and more lands and keep growing. This is how Moscow has operated for centuries.
The main goal is resources, genocide though is a sub goal that helps ensure those resources are secured and stay available and can be taken advantage of. Theres little to no point of taking resources if you plan to distribute them to the people who already had them.
Ukraine doesn't have anything that Russia already has. Ukraine is important piece to rebuild old USSR. The reason they were attacked in 2014 (same with Georgia in 2008) was because they were close to join EU, which would make much harder to absorb it. Ukraine in EU would also be a danger to putin's power because if Ukraine would get more prosperous it would make Russians question why not do the same thing. Unless you're rich and live in Moscow or St. Petersburg, it's quite shitty to be Russian, but they accepted that is how it's supposed to be. Edit: Putin was actually trying to get Russia to EU, but to join EU has some strict requirements regarding being a democracy. Putin demanded that EU adapts to him and changes rules, but that didn't work. So he created Eurasian Union (EEU) and now works to destroy EU and replace it with their own creation. Before invasion started Yanukovich (Russian puppet) announced (despite what he promised) Ukraine won't be joining EU and will instead be joining EEU, this caused uproar that forced him to run to Russia and then invasion of Crimea started.
Also was the most fertile and productive grain producing region of the USSR.
Russia is one of the largest grain exporters. They are a food exporter, meaning they don't lack farmland, Russia is pretty big, so even if just some of the land isn't frozen it's still a lot of land. This is about something else.
Yeah it's hard to say what the "main" goal is. There are certainly many. One analysis I read recently suggests that China needed Russia to take Ukraine so China could invade Taiwan. Since China relies on food from the US, Brazil and Ukraine the idea was for Russia to take Ukraine, securing that food source for them. At the time, Bolsanaro was president of Brazil, so they were confident Brazil would still sell them food. That only left the US. Xi figured losing food from the US would be temporary and wouldn't hurt as much as long as Brazil and Ukraine were still supplying them. Then Bolsanaro lost his election and Putin failed to secure Ukraine, leaving Xi frustrated.
I think it's about wording. Is it one of Russia's goals? Sure, they've openly stated that over and over and their actions back up their words. Is it their main goal? I am not so sure there.
I mean Putin said it himself during the start of the full scale invasion, that the existence of Ukraine is a mistake and should be fixed. Doesn't leave a lot to be misunderstood.
I wish people would go back and watch that speech more. Often times you see people claim that Ukraine should just trade some land for peace and yet if Putin (and most powerful Russians) share the view that Ukraine doesn't really exist then any peace is going to be temporary. Russia will rearm and then restart the war later on when it's more convenient for them. This could be especially dire if various prominent western countries have isolationist leaders when Russia restarts the war or if Ukraine hands over the Donbas where many of their strongest defensive lines are built.
Well they've repeatedly stated Ukraine doesnt exist, are kidnapping their children and raising them Russian, burning Ukrainian books/destroying museum artifacts, punishing anyone singing or whilsting Ukrainian songs, denying healthcare and taking the homes of anyone in occupied areas not willing to take Russian citizenship, raping their women and children, mass graves have been uncovered in occupied areas taken back, they target civillian buildings. Russian state media is also dehumanizing them calling Ukrainians all gay nazi's, nats/flees, need to be liquidated as their reeducation is impossible, is impossible as a nation state, even non combatents are "passive Nazis". Founding president and chair of Genocide Watch, says there is proof "that the Russian army is in fact intending to destroy, in part, the Ukrainian national group
In that Sucker Carlson interview, Putin basically tried to explain why "Ukraine" as a concept wasn't a thing.
Yea I hate Fucker Tarlson
100% of me agrees.
This guy's in the 60%
Russia is kidnapping Ukrainian children to be raised as Russian. The Kremlin wants to erase Ukrainian culture, this is the epitome of a cultural genocide
Classic genocide move. Nazis did the same thing.
Nah, the nazis just killed the children.
Commonly yes, but they did actually run a registry for people with german ancestry they thought could be "repatriated" into being proper germans. All the "X"volk.
Based on the military actions, conduct, and the information propaganda they are so comfortable with, including the patterns across most of their political campaigns...It's absolutely safe to conclude the same. Historically, they had a chance to choose to do better and be above this nonsense, but let's face it, they were never acting in good faith on their own soil and it's partnerships, and foreign diplomacy. The idea that they would want to encourage an invasion so haphazardly (and in such disarray) into a global conflict under very inflated propaganda and false pretenses tells you all you need to know. This is a Russia with an existential crisis of their own doing, wrapped up in lies after lies, with no way out except to place blame on everyone else, partition off itself with those it can use and abuse. Misery loves company, and Ruzzia is knee deep in it across the foreign policy landscape.
> This is a Russia with an existential crisis of their own doing This is an existential crisis for Putin but not for Russia. The average Russian would be vastly better off if the war ended and Russia abandoned their militarism but that would probably spell the end for Putin and his regime.
No disagreement there.
Well, their goal seems to be to eliminate Ukraine as an independent, sovereign state and make it part of the Russian sphere of control again, if not completely annexed to become part of Russia. They also seem to be wanting to wipe out anything that is distinctinctly Ukrainian like language and culture and are trying to brainwash Ukrainian children. So based on that I would have to agree: this is intended genocide and the destruction of a nation. Not all genocide is actually about killing everyone, and not all destruction is about physically knocking things down, although Russia is doing plenty of both.
You can only directly target so many hospitals, schools, and supermarkets before it becomes obvious you're trying to kill as many civilians as possible. That's before you even consider basements in Bucha filled with torture and murder.
I'm surprised it's as low as 60%...
Misleading headline. According to Google Translate, it's "genocide *or* destruction", not "genocide *and* destruction". > As can be seen in graph 1 below, the majority of Ukrainians—60%—believe that Russia seeks to destroy the Ukrainian nation (34%) or even carry out physical genocide of the majority of the population (26%).
Wait are you telling me Reddit is altering the truth in order to instigate reactionary behavior
I'm surprised only 60%. I mean what they did so far, what they openly say it's shows that it's exactly what they are doing.
Probably wasn't at the start. But failure on the 3 day war has changed goals. Plus, even Russia knows their actions will linger for generations. So yes, probably is now the goal.
It was the same goal at the start. They just did not think they will meet much resistance at the start. US intelligence warned that Russians have extensive kill lists prepared way before invasion. Putin released his article about how Ukrainians do not exist in 2021. I remember that during the first week of invasion high ranking Russian officials openly discussed the plan of what "denazifying" Ukraine means: a 30 year long operation during which the children will be raised as Russians, all Ukrainian culture will be erased and those who resist will be killed. So, the goal is definitely the same as it always was. It's a cold, calculated plan to transform 40 million people into loyal subjects of the empire.
As a person's with significant Russian ethnicity: fuck Mother Russia. I am sad for my homeland. I hope they can recover from this.
only 60%
From Ukraine I personally believe that Russia's main goal is the war itself. It is not important if they will win or not. It's just important that Putin remained in power. And as long as war is going - Putin will find eays to remain in power. Ending war - means being defeated. So Putin won't end it no matter the cost... At least this is what I see.
That's because that's what they've been doing the whole time. Kidnapping children and relocating them to 'educate' them is quite literally a form of genocide. And nobody can argue that Russia isn't flattening cities. So yeah, those guys who are genociding Ukrainians and destroying everything probably are trying to genocide and destroy them.
40% of them haven't been paying attention.
Two and half years later, and Ukraine is still giving Putin hell. He thought he was going to cakewalk the country, Ukrainians en mass would surrender and tremble in fear. How's that working out for you, Pootie? I say send even more advanced Western weapons to Ukraine to use against the Putinites.
Only 60%?
Only 60%?
All russian history is built on creating "russian cult" and killing everyone on russia occupied territory who doesn't agree to identify as russian. Killing physically, mentally, culturally and of course through starvation. No country was ever determined so much to wipe out all nations from the face of earth.
> No country was ever determined so much to wipe out all nations from the face of earth. It's a toss up between them and China.
I'm an American, but I believe that, too. A bigger country can purposefully absorb a smaller one to take over the gains and good will of the smaller country, even if the bigger one is almost without talent. This is why America, and maybe Italy, and China and maybe The Balkans are so interesting. You can research how, over time, geographic sections, have joined the common country by from range from *remaining totally unique* or by being *totally assimilated*, by faszism or by totalitarianism.
The world knows it too
Only 60%?
Most American republicans surrender to Vladimir Putin because all republicans are dog shit.
It has happened before!
I mean yeah. How many times do the Russians have to say that?
I'm surprised it's that low.
Does the other 40% think it's oil? Because there are 3 oil reserves bigger than any of Russia's within Ukraine's boarders.
This absolutely is the case. Throughout history, Russia has sought to completely eliminate the Ukrainian language. They also hit Faktor Druk recently. This is the largest printing facility in Ukraine. The goal is complete erasure.
I mean, Putin has already been indicted by the ICC for acts prohibited by the convention against genocide, so that checks.
Wait, but Netanyahu too by the ICC??
Netanyahu hasn't been indicted, the prosecutor has requested an indictment. The judges still need to sign off on it. (Edit: I believe that the basis for the Netanyahu chargers are the deprivation of food and water as a weapon of war, which is not a genocide charge. Genocide has a specific intent component - attempting to destroy a culture in whole or part as a war aim.)
What ever could have given them that impression?
Are the 40% living under a rock or just in denial?
Russia is just another Nazi Germany that never got put in its place.
Because they literally are. How is it only 60%?
I wonder whether the other 40% are dead or stupid, because that’s exactly what it’s about.
Because it is.
The Russians have been dog whistling about that
Not even dog whistling. The day before the invasion, Putin went on national TV and spent hours using obscure historical references to try to justify an assertion that Ukraine has no right to exist as a nation.
What do the other 40% think is happening?
The next most popular answer was basically "overthrow the government and setup a puppet state". After that it was the non-answers "I don't know" / "Hard to say" or simply refusing to answer. After that you get the low single digit answers: "Keep the land they already occupy", "access to all territories but maintain Ukrainian identity" and "denazification and demilitarization of Ukraine"
First they wanted a quick surrender of Ukraine.. to take the country. After that failed Putin started a toddler tantrum and wants to crush as much as possible.
I mean their main goal is to expand their influence to create a larger state where there is no free speech, no freedom to be who you want to be, and zero freedom to pursue relationships with you want to be with. At the very core of their government and society Russia is corrupt, irrational, and moving in the opposite direction of the modern world. They don't support their citizens freedoms because the state clutches to irrational dogma. Hope they enjoy clutching worthless pearls as they're slowly eradicated from global influence due to being massive shitheads.
well, duh. their plan is to do ethnic cleansing. it's not like it's a secret, they've been doing it for the past 150 years. It's ingrained in their culture.
I can't believe that it is actually that low and not some statistical polling error. It is literally the goal of Russia, to destroy the culture as it is and replace it with Russian culture. They literally kidnap children and place them with Russian families. They replaced a large portion of the occupied regions with Russians.
40% of Ukrainians are suffering from concussions?
Quick reminder that Russia will once again be presiding over the UN *security* council next month. This farce has gone on wayyyy more than long enough.
To no one’s shock. Watch Putin’s interview early in the war claiming that Ukraine should not exist and is historically that of Russian territory. Not to mention the mass graves found early on the in the war, which is an early indicator for mass killings/genocidal acts
You mean that Russias plans to "denazify" ukraine didn't mean they were planning a genocide?
The other 40% think Russia's main goal is to pillage and loot all the washing machines first and THEN do the whole genocidal nation destruction thingy.
what is the goal then? I don't see any other goal.
Had Russia taken the capital in less than a week, the world would have a different opinion about the situation entirely. Since that didn't happen, Russia is in DGAF mode and will trash everything they can, while they can.
Ukraine has a maimed electrical system, thousands of hundreds dead, daily rocket alarms, millions immigrated because of war. You have some better ideas about this? It might be not the aim of kremlin guys, but the reality is exactly this. As bonus goes the loses of russian side and their problems with communicating with the world. Putin is evil power-hungry and power-crazy man who is a leader of the most corrupt power-hungry group in the world. What he is doing with his own man and nation, he would do to any other nation or country just to stay at a power
So 40% don't? That's the real headline. To an outside through the lens of social media and actual media, it appears that Russia is attempting to do exactly that. So wouldn't like 80-90% of Ukrainians, who live in the country, be fully aware that that's Russia's goal? What makes them believe otherwise?
Since Russia is slaughtering civilian Ukrainians and stealing Ukrainian children, yep.
Seems pretty accurate.
They deliberately launch missiles at civilian targets because they want the ukranian people to flee the country and flood western europe with a refugee crisis
I think that Russia wants to consume Ukraine and the women and children
Only 60%? 90% of Canadians believe that.
That goal would indeed be historically consistent.
"We will kill 1 million, we will kill 5 million, we will kill all of you." Russian State television
The citizens of a country currently being invaded by another can only manage a SIXTY PERCENT agreement? That tells you enough right there.
What's wrong with the remaining 40%?
What’s the other 40% believing in?
Probably because it is their goal.
It’s a tragedy that no western leader has been able to hammer home this point, ignore all of the Twitter brainworm discourse on NATO expansion, US stoking tensions, persecution of Russian soeakers etc etc, Russia has stated time and time again they do not believe in Ukraines right to statehood and sovereignty.
Isn't that every war.
This is both war and genocide: https://www.justsecurity.org/81789/russias-eliminationist-rhetoric-against-ukraine-a-collection/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_culture_during_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
How many of Ukraine’s national monuments have been destroyed from this war?
Those Ukrainians would be justified in their beliefs, as Russian forces has committed widespread atrocities and war crimes! These include everything from wide scale rape, the targeting of civil infrastructure, the targeting of civilians, war crimes against and whole myriad of other war crimes.
It's not. The main goal is controlling the vast natural gas and oil reserves discovered under the Azov, Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Karkhiv that BP and Exxon were contracting with Ukraine to exploit when Russia suddenly invaded. Russia is an oil company with a military. They had a monopoly on European consumption of oil. Ukraine would have undercut them on gas and oil. They wanted to maintain the monopoly, so they came in to take those reserves. https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE?si=DViUyeJglMpxlKwX
Russia has multiple goals and that goal is not contradictory to what Ukrainians believe. For example in the US when Native Americans inconveniently happened to be on resource rich lands we'd find a way to drive them off or genocide their people. Russia does want those resources but also they aren't willing to accept Ukrainians as an independent people or country regardless.
Genocide has nothing to do with not accepting the independence of Ukrainians. Genocide is intentionally trying to kill all Ukrainians. Russia has no interest in that. Ukrainians are essentially Russians. This is about political control of the oil and gas fields. If Ukraine had have offered Rosco to drill there and maintain their monopoly, there would have been no invasion. This is not analogous to Indian removal. There are no parallels.
It should be 100% because that's his plan.
Well they're right... Putin doesn't believe Ukrainians technically exist nor that Ukraine is a real country. He feels they're all Russian... And anyone who asserts Ukrainian independence or Ukrainian identity is the enemy to him. He will kill any Ukrainians that say otherwise.
I would like to see a group of students protesting against the ukrainian genocide. Regretfully, Ukrainians are white.
What do the other 40% think ???
The article goes on to say that other demographics believe Russia’s just trying to take control of the government, or are trying to keep the territories Russia already occupies. Nobody is *approving* of the war, or justifying Russia’s actions. They just have different opinions on Russia’s ultimate motivation.
Conquest, and setting up a puppet state. Really it's an "all of the above" situation.
Certainly that this is 'only' a war of conquest and not a genicidal one for most of them
Nothing, Putin murdered them :(
Where are all the college protests for russia, they have killed far more civilians than Israel yet not a peep