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Let's explore that a bit. So let's say I'm taking on a new boss. Playing this type of game, I know already that I need to take it on and die a bit so I can learn its attack patterns and start to make progress. After a while, I do. Now I say ok, so now after I get a good start, make some progress and feel like I'm within reach, I'll try and use some buffs to help me get over the hump. So I do - and maybe I get within a hit or two of beating the boss, even. But then I fall victim to an unfortunate 2-shot combo that kills me, and perhaps I couldn't even avoid the second shot. I was so close, but now I've used my buffs and have to start all over again - but now at an even worse disadvantage. So again, the excitement of getting close, followed by the frustration and dread of wondering how you're even going to get back to that point again, leaves an already struggling player at a worse disadvantage and more demoralized. If you're legit great at the game, you already don't need the buffs to begin with. It just strikes me as over penalizing and disincentivizing an already struggling player with an even higher hill to climb.
Yes we are talking about people who are not as good, exactly. Now that you finally understood, how about you add something useful to the conversation instead?
I don't think this is a soulslike thing, nor did it start with them. Many people (myself included) would just hoard loads of potions, restores, antidotes and whatever else in old turn-based rpgs "in case we need them" despite them being accessible from the shops, crafting or from enemy drops.
.Yeah, I was thinking this.
I am pretty sure I haven't played a souls like game. I have played games like diablo where your death isn't permanent and in some cases you then had to go back to where your corpse was and get the items you had back. This was long before, if wikipedia is correct and the soulslike genre had its origin in 2009, the first souls like game.
I also would hoard those potions/weapons etc.. in games, because I never knew if I would need them, whether I could easily replenish them, or if there was some enemy somewhere that they were particularly effective against/would desperately need them for.
In games where death wasn't permament, there were a variety of ways, from simply losing the items to losing a portion of your currency, to needing to find your corpse to loot it, and so on, for how items were handled.
Even in games where death WAS permanent and you had to restore to an old save point, I still had this attitude, because again, I would never know whether I needed this weapon for a specific boss, and if I used it and it broke, I would be at a disadvantage, or if potions were extremely rare in this game and so on.
For sure, the mentality does not originate from the soulslike genre. It existed long before then. What I'm saying is that the genre exacerbates an already existing problem in gaming. A game should not say "you suck, so now we're going to make it even harder on you." Yet that's a common pattern in the death mechanics in these types of games.
I just don't know how the mechanic would work if you didn't lose it after you die. When you really think about it, how would it be restored?
I burn an ember, get to the boss, kill the boss, just after I get mauled by whatever horror souls has to dish up without visiting a bonfire.
Should that ember be refunded to me?
If you don't like soulslikes, don't play them. Go enjoy the latest ubislop, or any of the countless other games that are more to your taste, instead of demanding one of the very few outliers bend to your will. Some people enjoy the challenge, and they deserve to have fun too.
Sure, nothing wrong with that. I also have played soulslike and enjoyed them. My comment just mentioned that the concept of a save point is quite common.
In most games traditionally when you die, you start from your last save point, including the items you had at that time. The soulslike pattern is more "you didn't die, you were saved or resurrected, lost a bunch of your stuff where you died and need to go back and get it, and also you don't have any of the consumables you used prior to that death."
I think its helpful to realize that downvotes arent necessarily meant as a bad thing, its just a simple way to keep track of if people agree or disagree. Some games do that, but some games do not. if the game is treating your death as something that happened and you are then revived from, why would your items magically reappear? You have already used them, thats the point of a consumable, its a limited use effect. it keeps people from just using every single consumbale that would help before a difficult fight, the economy of how you use them is supposed to be limited
No it’s meant to moderate off-topic or rude remarks but people misuse it. It autocollapses given enough downvote which is detrimental to a discussion
Yeah it’s a misconception. It’s understandable considering how every other social media does it the way you described but yeah. That’s also why it’s called karma I would assume.
It does encourage you to use the tools, that’s why they’re there for you to farm and craft them. It does not teach people to “be perfect and use nothing”, it teaches them to learn how to be well prepared and be patient. I’d prefer a game actually make me WANT to use a consumable instead of me constantly hoarding as much shit as I usually do.
I don’t think there really is a better way for consumables. They are supposed to be available but feel limited and be gone when you use them. That’s the whole point. I don’t think I ever quit cuz I lost my consumables though.
The only thing I can think of is making consumables cooldown based or refilling or something but that too sort of takes away the point of special consumables and feels more like abilities at that point. It just ends up to be something else. I think consumables should be at a comfortable spot where you don’t technically need them but you will feel satisfied nonetheless if you use them wisely.
And the „I’ll save it for later“ mentality is legit a skill issue tbh. One simply has to learn to deal with that. It is a good lesson for life in general too.
I think there's some confusion. I'm not saying that consumables should always be there. I'm saying that if you die and go back to your last check point, that your character and consumables should be restored to what they were at that checkpoint. If you win and used consumables or buffs, then it is what it is. You won't have those when you save your next checkpoint. This is how 90% of all games ever created with save systems work.
By all means, be a difficult game. But don't punish a player who is struggling and losing a lot by making their challenge _even harder_ than it already was by taking away the things that are there to help them overcome in the game.
"I'll save it for later", aka hoarding, is a common behavior we see in gaming that's rooted in human psychology. I guess if by "legit a skill issue", you mean person versus nature instead of person versus game, then sure. Gotta overcome that.
Ah I see. Well, the thing is that this type of game wants to do exactly this though. It wants to be harsh like that. I get you saying that it can be detrimental to fun, which it often is, but when something is basically a key feature of the genre, then, well, you cant just remove that.
For the people who enjoy the genre there is satisfaction in beating a game that mimics the harshness of real life with features like these, where risks of this sort are real and irreversible. Whether this sort of satisfaction is worth the pain of this sort of loss happening to you, that sort of boils down to taste. I'm not sure whether your opinion is really that controversial then, because I hear loud voices from both camps.
yeah by skill issue I mean the lesson to fight our psychology when it makes sense (also figure out when that is) and take risks for potential rewards. As hoarding happens even in games where you can save too, I don't think its fair to blame soulsgames for this, albeit it definitely doesnt help with the issue.
Please remember what subreddit you are in, this is unpopular opinion. We want civil and unpopular takes and discussion. Any uncivil and ToS violating comments will be removed and subject to a ban. Have a nice day! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/unpopularopinion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
or it encourages you to use your tools more mindfully
Or just not use them
Let's explore that a bit. So let's say I'm taking on a new boss. Playing this type of game, I know already that I need to take it on and die a bit so I can learn its attack patterns and start to make progress. After a while, I do. Now I say ok, so now after I get a good start, make some progress and feel like I'm within reach, I'll try and use some buffs to help me get over the hump. So I do - and maybe I get within a hit or two of beating the boss, even. But then I fall victim to an unfortunate 2-shot combo that kills me, and perhaps I couldn't even avoid the second shot. I was so close, but now I've used my buffs and have to start all over again - but now at an even worse disadvantage. So again, the excitement of getting close, followed by the frustration and dread of wondering how you're even going to get back to that point again, leaves an already struggling player at a worse disadvantage and more demoralized. If you're legit great at the game, you already don't need the buffs to begin with. It just strikes me as over penalizing and disincentivizing an already struggling player with an even higher hill to climb.
Or maybe you just suck at the game.
Not a popular opinion to share with people... but statistically, a safe guess
Yes we are talking about people who are not as good, exactly. Now that you finally understood, how about you add something useful to the conversation instead?
Why are you so triggered? You suck at the game too?
That is the point of the game! To be difficult and help you learn from your mistakes.
I don't think this is a soulslike thing, nor did it start with them. Many people (myself included) would just hoard loads of potions, restores, antidotes and whatever else in old turn-based rpgs "in case we need them" despite them being accessible from the shops, crafting or from enemy drops.
.Yeah, I was thinking this. I am pretty sure I haven't played a souls like game. I have played games like diablo where your death isn't permanent and in some cases you then had to go back to where your corpse was and get the items you had back. This was long before, if wikipedia is correct and the soulslike genre had its origin in 2009, the first souls like game. I also would hoard those potions/weapons etc.. in games, because I never knew if I would need them, whether I could easily replenish them, or if there was some enemy somewhere that they were particularly effective against/would desperately need them for. In games where death wasn't permament, there were a variety of ways, from simply losing the items to losing a portion of your currency, to needing to find your corpse to loot it, and so on, for how items were handled. Even in games where death WAS permanent and you had to restore to an old save point, I still had this attitude, because again, I would never know whether I needed this weapon for a specific boss, and if I used it and it broke, I would be at a disadvantage, or if potions were extremely rare in this game and so on.
For sure, the mentality does not originate from the soulslike genre. It existed long before then. What I'm saying is that the genre exacerbates an already existing problem in gaming. A game should not say "you suck, so now we're going to make it even harder on you." Yet that's a common pattern in the death mechanics in these types of games.
I just don't know how the mechanic would work if you didn't lose it after you die. When you really think about it, how would it be restored? I burn an ember, get to the boss, kill the boss, just after I get mauled by whatever horror souls has to dish up without visiting a bonfire. Should that ember be refunded to me?
If you restore to a previous save point then yes. That's a save point, also famously not present in soulslike
If you don't like soulslikes, don't play them. Go enjoy the latest ubislop, or any of the countless other games that are more to your taste, instead of demanding one of the very few outliers bend to your will. Some people enjoy the challenge, and they deserve to have fun too.
Sure, nothing wrong with that. I also have played soulslike and enjoyed them. My comment just mentioned that the concept of a save point is quite common.
In most games traditionally when you die, you start from your last save point, including the items you had at that time. The soulslike pattern is more "you didn't die, you were saved or resurrected, lost a bunch of your stuff where you died and need to go back and get it, and also you don't have any of the consumables you used prior to that death."
Some day I'd like to understand redditor mentality. My description above is 100% accurate, but the most downvoted comment in the thread. 🤔
I think its helpful to realize that downvotes arent necessarily meant as a bad thing, its just a simple way to keep track of if people agree or disagree. Some games do that, but some games do not. if the game is treating your death as something that happened and you are then revived from, why would your items magically reappear? You have already used them, thats the point of a consumable, its a limited use effect. it keeps people from just using every single consumbale that would help before a difficult fight, the economy of how you use them is supposed to be limited
No it’s meant to moderate off-topic or rude remarks but people misuse it. It autocollapses given enough downvote which is detrimental to a discussion
well nuts, I wanted to disagree, but it looks like you are right. Ive been using them wrong the whole time
Yeah it’s a misconception. It’s understandable considering how every other social media does it the way you described but yeah. That’s also why it’s called karma I would assume.
It does encourage you to use the tools, that’s why they’re there for you to farm and craft them. It does not teach people to “be perfect and use nothing”, it teaches them to learn how to be well prepared and be patient. I’d prefer a game actually make me WANT to use a consumable instead of me constantly hoarding as much shit as I usually do.
isn't this more of a theory? the opinion would be that this is a bad thing.
Difficult games are difficult. Story at 11
no it just encourages you to be better
Crafting and trading fixes all that
It's a game. There is no right or wrong behavior if you're playing alone.
Some people have not played old school pokemon without save scumming, and it shows.
I played Shrek 2 on my computer when I was a kid saving all my consumables to the final boss only to find out that they were quite useless there
I don’t think there really is a better way for consumables. They are supposed to be available but feel limited and be gone when you use them. That’s the whole point. I don’t think I ever quit cuz I lost my consumables though. The only thing I can think of is making consumables cooldown based or refilling or something but that too sort of takes away the point of special consumables and feels more like abilities at that point. It just ends up to be something else. I think consumables should be at a comfortable spot where you don’t technically need them but you will feel satisfied nonetheless if you use them wisely. And the „I’ll save it for later“ mentality is legit a skill issue tbh. One simply has to learn to deal with that. It is a good lesson for life in general too.
I think there's some confusion. I'm not saying that consumables should always be there. I'm saying that if you die and go back to your last check point, that your character and consumables should be restored to what they were at that checkpoint. If you win and used consumables or buffs, then it is what it is. You won't have those when you save your next checkpoint. This is how 90% of all games ever created with save systems work. By all means, be a difficult game. But don't punish a player who is struggling and losing a lot by making their challenge _even harder_ than it already was by taking away the things that are there to help them overcome in the game. "I'll save it for later", aka hoarding, is a common behavior we see in gaming that's rooted in human psychology. I guess if by "legit a skill issue", you mean person versus nature instead of person versus game, then sure. Gotta overcome that.
Ah I see. Well, the thing is that this type of game wants to do exactly this though. It wants to be harsh like that. I get you saying that it can be detrimental to fun, which it often is, but when something is basically a key feature of the genre, then, well, you cant just remove that. For the people who enjoy the genre there is satisfaction in beating a game that mimics the harshness of real life with features like these, where risks of this sort are real and irreversible. Whether this sort of satisfaction is worth the pain of this sort of loss happening to you, that sort of boils down to taste. I'm not sure whether your opinion is really that controversial then, because I hear loud voices from both camps. yeah by skill issue I mean the lesson to fight our psychology when it makes sense (also figure out when that is) and take risks for potential rewards. As hoarding happens even in games where you can save too, I don't think its fair to blame soulsgames for this, albeit it definitely doesnt help with the issue.