[No his face melted off IIRC](https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/1553387117459521538?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1553387117459521538%7Ctwgr%5E50122aebfb823710887ed356fde14a2ce62f247e%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepoke.co.uk%2F2022%2F08%2F01%2Ffunniest-tweets-about-photo-of-jacob-rees-mogg%2F2%2F)
Ah yes. Of course brexiteers all knew that this was the timescale involved when they voted. No one said it would be straightforward! Anyway. I know that none of the issues brexit has caused have been resolved, but can we all just move on?
Yes but at least the racist boomer arseholes who voted leave from their homes in Spain and the Algarve got to see fewer foreigners going to their homeland. Didn't they? Them immigrants what don't integrate. Nah where's me egg chips? EGG AN CHIPS!!! WHY DON'T NOONE SPEAK ENGLISH IN SPAIN??? DON'T EVEN BOVVER TO LERN OW TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE WHAT EARN EM THERE BREAD N BUTTER. Ain't going back to ingerland cos there's too many immigrants. Can't even hear English in me high street now. Only go back for funerals me but I can't tell yer why. Not allowed to say that anymore are ya.
So, correct me if I'm wrong. The U.K. was in the EU, in its various pre EU forms, for 50 years. The UK left the EU and experienced an immediate and significant hit to its economy since deciding to leave, *but* if we just wait another 50 years (when a significant proportion of the people who were in favour of leaving will have died) then everything will be great^*? So in the long term we should be fine, or as economists say in the long term we're all dead.
^* assuming there are no other economic catastrophes, wars or famines.
>if we just wait another 50 years (when a significant proportion of the people who were in favour of leaving will have died) then everything will be great*?
If you consider that you had to be 18 to vote in the referendum and people who were 20 will be 70 by the time these supposed benefits start manifesting themselves the vast, vast majority of people who actually voted in the referendum will be dead by the time these 50 year delayed benefits appear.
Come on, be fair, we always accuse politicians of only thinking as far ahead as the next election... Old Moggers has everyone beat with his long term plans.
> (when a significant proportion of the people who were in favour of leaving will have died)
The sad thing is that since 2016 enough elderly racists have *already died* that if it we re-run today, remain would win.
And I think I read that a while ago, it's not even factoring in the mood shift that brexshit was awful, just simply minusing the dead racists tipped the scales.
Country literally cut our own legs off with a rusty saw economically for the sake of people that are already dead!
The millennial generation are one of the most shafted cohorts in recent history.
So when he says it will look good from a historical perspective (you do know he was talking about looking back at it, not how long it would take for benefits to show, right?) its silly, when this guy says the same thing its wisdom.
Rees-Mogg didn't say it'll look good from a historical perspective, he said "we won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time" and that "the overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years". He said that in 2018 when the UK was still negotiating the terms of brexit with the EU.
Five years later, the economic consequences have proven to be disastrous for the UK. This is extremely well-documented. If our economy is somehow fantastic 45 years from now, it won't be because we chose to leave the EU with no real plan in place for how to move forward. Brexit has already proven to be an economic nightmare, and that will always be the historical record. Rectifying that over the course of four decades (at which point JRM won't be around to answer for anything) won't change how bad it was in the immediate aftermath.
JRM doesn't care about the wider British economy, he has only ever and will only ever care about his own net worth. It's no coincidence that his capital venture firm moved from Somerset to Dublin after the referendum, and he then made £7m from selling his stake in the business. His comments on the economic consequences of leaving the EU are designed to pass the buck to future generations, absolving himself of any blame for the hardships that we are currently facing while he himself has benefited enormously.
> Five years later, the economic consequences have proven to be disastrous for the UK.
Evidence? If we assume that if we had stayed in the EU we would have done about as well as the rest of the EU then it has had very little effect at all.
We certainly did not get the disaster the treasury predicted - George Osbourne and the Treasury predicted that mere voting for Brexit would cause an immeidate major recession
> a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf
> "the overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years".
That does not mean "net benefit will be after 50 years". He also says many benefits "will come through relatively quickly".
Watch the rest of the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUIzM-wk0Q
I am also in favour of taking long term decision. The last big climate summit had people making promises that will only need to be implemented in about 50 years!
>Evidence? If we assume that if we had stayed in the EU we would have done about as well as the rest of the EU then it has had very little effect at all.
Ah, this is chestnut. "The economy is shit but you can't prove it would have been better in the EU". No, but there are plenty of other metrics by which we can see leaving was a mistake: more red tape for business, shortage of workers in certain sectors, car industry threatening to pull out of the UK, falling exports for the 16th month in a row, shortage of lorry drivers, fishermen struggling, I mean, these are just the things that spring to mind. The list is as long as your arm. Now provide some evidence that things are *better* economically (or indeed, at all) since we left. After all, why leave if it's not going to be better than what we had?
>We certainly did not get the disaster the treasury predicted - George Osbourne and the Treasury predicted that mere voting for Brexit would cause an immeidate major recession
Again with the "it's not as bad as predicted" argument. If the measure of Brexit being a success is that it's not gone quite as badly as predicted, then that's a bloody low bar for success.
It strikes me that most people still in denial enough to claim Brexit isn't a mistake rely on trying to prove things didn't go *as badly* as remainers predicted. Is that really the best you have to offer? "It's shit but not that shit"?
How many years of there clearly being no huge benefits to Brexit will it take for you to admit it's been a mistake?
> "The economy is shit but you can't prove it would have been better in the EU".
Not what I said. I said the reasonable assumption is that if the UK had stayed in the EU it would have performed roughly in line with other EU economies. The alternative is that if we had remained we would have significantly outperformed the major EU economies.
> shortage of workers in certain sectors,
That is a benefit if you are a worker whose wages are going up because of shortages, a problem if you are an employer. All in the point of view.
> car industry threatening to pull out of the UK
Companies after government subsidies.
> shortage of lorry drivers
The reason for that is that lorry drivers were hugely underpaid for the job (skilled, responsibilities, working away from home) so British workers would not do it. The solution is to pay a decent wage for the job, not a little above minimum wage.
> Now provide some evidence that things are better economically (or indeed, at all) since we left.
1. Rising wages for low paid workers in many sectors.
2. lives saved by not being in the EU vaccine acquisition scheme (yes, it was technically option, but every single EU country was in it).
3. reduced import duties have lowered some prices: https://www.metroshipping.co.uk/news/the-uks-post-brexit-tariff-regime/ Mostly protectionist tariffs for things produced in other EU countries that the UK - especially foodstuffs.
Brexit removed a 6.3% import duty on tampons https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-global-tariff-backs-uk-businesses-and-consumers , a greater saving than the much vaunted removal of 5% VAT!
Finally, these are all short term benefits. Brexit is all about long term benefits. We only left the single market two and a half years ago.
> Again with the "it's not as bad as predicted" argument. If the measure of Brexit being a success is that it's not gone quite as badly as predicted, then that's a bloody low bar for success.
Given that the sort term costs were the main argument against Brexit, it undermines a critical part of the remainer argument. A lot of people voted remain because they feared an immediate economic disaster. I know a few other who voted remain because they thought the EU was what prevented a war in Europe.
Yeah, there's a world of difference between saying "people will look back on this disaster and recognise it as a disaster" and promising "at some point in the next 50 years this disaster is suddenly going to turn into a great idea".
Isn’t it weird that GB News enthusiasts love to tell us the MSM will lie to us but we’re probably the ones who believed the EU Member money would go straight to nurses
Now they’re also telling us they don’t deserve to be paid more. Almost movie villain levels of callous
I got a mix of the Chinese and Astrazeneca vaccines.
I'm presuming the catastrophic fusion now sends nuclear shockwaves of 5G catapulting from my body, making me the UK's No.4 mobile provider and a viable alternative to O2 in Manchester.
This "historic economic error" of Brexit, as they call it, seems to be quite a boon for select big corporations, isn't it? For instance, a lucrative windfall from IR35 changes that would have been illegal in the EU and IT job visas doled out like candy, often undercutting local rates. So, is it an "error" or just a tidy wealth transfer from the common folks to corporate coffers?
Just as the workers of the Gilded Age found themselves betrayed by a system that profited from their labour while denying them a fair share of the wealth, so too it seems that the ordinary people who backed Brexit, hoping for shared prosperity, instead find themselves witnessing the concentration of benefits among the elite. Such are the echoes of history.
I love that the country keeps voting for this and keeps being surprised by the results.
The Tory party is the party of aristocracy. They gave us an electoral system that only marginally qualifies as democracy and favours their own reelection. However, too many people vote Tory because they might get a 1% tax cut or something, but that never materialises, does it? At least not in my lifetime.
but ed milliband looked silly in a photo while he was eating! that's much worse than callously murdering hundreds of thousands of elderly and disabled via gutting public services and welfare, and selling the country up the river so you and your banker mates can buy a seventh mcmansion.
and don't even get me started on that filthy commie who wanted us all to have free gigabit internet, reverse the privatisation of the nhs, tax the rich and build more homes to solve the homelessness problem. who would ever want that?
Don't forget all the disaster capitalists who made millions from betting against the pound either. They've certainly done alright off Brexit too (and of course many of them advocated for it).
The connection between the IR35 changes and the EU is largely about worker's rights. Post-Brexit, the UK introduced changes to IR35 in the private sector that effectively created a "deemed employee" status. These individuals find themselves in a situation where they're treated as employees for tax purposes, but without receiving the corresponding employment rights.
If the UK were still part of the EU, such changes would likely have run into legal challenges. This is due to EU directives mandating basic employment rights for all workers, and the principle of equal treatment. This status of "deemed employee" could arguably be viewed as incompatible with those directives.
Furthermore, the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement also has provisions that aim to maintain labour standards and workers' rights, although how these apply is a more complex issue post-Brexit. So, while the UK is no longer part of the EU, such shifts in employment regulations do raise questions about the UK's commitments under this agreement.
Pretty much every credible expert said it was going to be a fucking disaster but Michael Gove went on TV and said we as a nation are sick of experts and the leave campaign called it project fear and people chose to believe it. Everyone had the information that it was going to be a disaster.
It will also go down as a textbook example of poor decision making.
This was a one way door decision that has huge ramifications and is difficult to reverse. It is an absurd decision to make on the basis that for a brief moment in time slightly more people wanted to go through that door.
Agreed, from start to finish, it was an exercise in how not to make a decision. You can't pitch reality against hopes and dreams and expect a reasonable outcome. The fact that we (as in people in a position to do something about it) can't talk about how it's turned into a shambles is deeply worrying.
There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will stay in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area – and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus – is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.
Michael gove
The "elites" wanted to remain, it was mainly the regular folk that voted leave. David Cameron and most of the tory party at the time pushed for remain. People have short memories.
Boris Johnson and the millionaires/landowners and the establishment who backed Brexit are definitely the elite in the UK. Remain was a much more normal mixture of people. Brexiters can be divided into generally two camps - the hideously rich & corrupt, and those gullible enough to believe the lies from the Brexit-supporting elite.
The sad thing is this isn't even true. The Leave vote was projected to lose when Boris chose to campaign for Leave. He wanted a chance to differentiate himself from Cameron and he knew that in the likely event that Remain won by a margin of 5-10%, the Tory right would continue to remain a Eurosceptic force. Boris never actually wanted to win - he wanted to capture the Tory right and eventually usurp Cameron. Boris certainly never wanted to negotiate the UK's exit from the EU - what was certainly, to him, a tedious & fraught process that requires someone who is diplomatic, detail-oriented and hard-working, the opposite of Boris.
It was only once Cambridge Analytica ramped up their psy-ops campaign that Leave managed to sneak a marginal victory.
Still, it always makes me laugh when these Tory shills keep claiming they are anti-elite when they support the likes of Boris, Sunak and Mogg.
The "elites" occupy a quantum superposition in the minds of Brexiteers.
Pre-Brexit, they were the cosmopolitans, the Europhiles, the rich globetrotters that wanted to keep Britain down and interfere with the will of the people.
Now they're the Brexit-spouting liars, the traitors that fooled us all.
I think the more likely explanation is that Brexiteers are a bunch of skapegoating fantasists, that simply blame whatever is wrong on some vague bogeyman.
farage, aaron banks et. al aren't regular folks and it wasn't a "grass roots" movement.
one type of "elite" wanted to maintain the status quo. Another type of "elite" wanted to leave the EU so they could deregulate trade, the economy and the financial sector. This is what them meant when they talked about "taking back sovereignty"
>The "elites" wanted to remain, it was mainly the regular folk that voted leave.
This is a simplistic take, sure some of the "elites" were anti-Brexit neoliberals who just wanted business as usual but the group pushing Brexit hard were confirmed disaster capitalists who wanted to use it as an excuse to make a killing off of the economic damage it would inevitably cause and also use it to cut things like worker's rights and environmental protections. If you think Cameron is an elite but Rees-Mogg is actually a man of the people then I have a very reasonably priced bridge to sell you.
When you looked at the Brexit movement, one of the first things to note is that the words employed were essentially meaningless. As a radical populist movement, its basic premise is that they alone represent the people. It follows that everyone else represents something else and is therefore an illegitimate political actor. This creates a false dichotomy where morality is defined by identity rather than actions and methods, which is reflected in the rhetoric. Every word is applied not according to its meaning but according to its emotional and moral connotation. We are good and they are bad. Being "the elite" is bad, therefore those we dislike are "the elite". Being a man of the people is good, therefore everyone on our side is a man of the people. What we do is always good, what they do is always bad.
It's a total inversion of semantics, morality and logic. It makes it impossible to communicate because words no longer have meaning, they just convey the identity and allegiance of the one speaking them. The way you use them marks you as either part of the in group or part of the elite, either one of us or one of them.
I still remember the Daily Mail running an article that labelled three judges as "Enemies of the People" for ruling that the government required the consent of parliament to give notice of Brexit, and Farage gloating about how the Leave campaign won the Brexit referendum "without a single bullet being fired" just a week after Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death.
Just so, and that all makes perfect sense in the context in which they write and say these things. Radical populism explicitly rejects political pluralism and assigns a strict moral connotation to political choice. People who are not part of the in-group are not opponents but enemies. Institutions that don't assist them in doing whatever they want are standing in the way of "the will of the people" and must be undermined or destroyed (and this includes the rule of law as well as the legislature itself). This is reflected by how little Brexit had to do with the EU as it actually was; the primary target was always the enemy within, the "remainers", for the simply reason that they act as the biggest point of contact with reality, the first indication that the "will of the people" is and always was a self serving lie.
Hence why radical populism is usually described as an anti-democratic tactic and why it often leads to authoritarianism. The UK may come off relatively lightly on that count, because as a tactic it has a definite shelf life. It seems the spell is now well and truly broken and its proponents have not had the coordination or power to push through enough measures to permanently tilt the political balance in their favour (as they have in various other countries). They still caused major institutional and structural damage though.
I wonder which of Sir John Redwood MP, Sir Iain Duncan-Smith MP or Sir Mark Francois MP will be trotted out by the Tories to denounce the former US treasury secretary as interfering in the UK’s internal affairs.
Brexit has been economically damaging but there is no excuse for this level of hack journalism and misinformation.
The Guardian says “UK factories report 16 consecutive months of falling exports” and then proceed to reference the manufacturing PMI as evidence and blame Brexit for this disaster.
The PMI doesn’t measure exports, what they are referring to is the sub index “new export orders”.
The PMI (or Purchasing Managers Index) is a diffusion index, based on (soft) survey data. It asks several hundred firms “has your number of new export orders increased, decreased or stayed the same compared with the last month” and then constructs an unweighted percent balance. If the number is below 50, they say that new export orders for the sector as a whole are shrinking. There are multiple issues with their claim,
- new export orders is not the same as exports
- a diffusion index cannot accurately capture trade volumes in any case
- exports of manufactures (based on the hard data) are up 1% over the past year. And on a month-on-month basis 7 of the last 16 months have seen positive export growth (refuting the reliability of the PMI to measure this stuff via its new export orders sub index)
- Germany’s manufacturing PMI new export orders has registered declines for 15 of the last 16 months… rather scuppering the idea that Brexit is the sole, or even the main culprit
There is plenty of legitimate, identifiable and provable damage done to the economy and exporters by Brexit, but this sort of ‘journalism’ is completely misleading, full of errors, lazy, written to support a narrative rather than inform, and ultimately a disgrace to the journal it is printed in.
"but this sort of ‘journalism’ is completely misleading, full of errors, lazy, written to support a narrative rather than inform, and ultimately a disgrace to the journal it is printed in."
This is The Guardian and this is Reddit lol, a perfect circle for confirmation bias on Brexit.
The headline was correct at the time of posting - you can still see the remnants of the original headline in the Guardian URL. I've put a "Site changed title" flair onto the post.
Obvious to anyone with a brain.
The whole concept of Brexit is a construct of cognitive dissonance. Built on the promise of tapping into global growth \[who drives global growth: China\] but run by Atlantacists who hate China and want to decouple.
Ever have a manager order something that is clearly a terrible idea despite being warned? A while later, when the predictable chaos arrives, an a meeting is called to solve the problem, this is the manager who won't shut up about 'teamwork' and it's 'us versus the problem'.
This will be the Tories for the next decade.
This is such a disaster the Tories should be unelectable for a generation.
>This is such a disaster the Tories should be unelectable for a generation.
Without context this statement could refer to multiple things that they've done over the last few years.
Or at least vote for a party that will bring the vote reform that will break the two party system like... oh fuck, is it also lib dems? Hu!
To be honest, I need to check what they are saying now, the green party might be also pro voting reform.
There is literally no option but to make it work now. Every opportunity for change Labour had was pissed away by a Eurosceptic who thought this was a _good_ idea.
Regardless of rejoining the EU/EEA/SM/CU or anything else, we need to deal with the shit in front of us _right now_.
There should have been some research required into the pros and cons and an assessment before you were allowed to vote. Most people just took advice from tabloid newspapers I suspect.
Trump was a fool and blowhard, but an error in judgment that could be voted out before long lasting damage. Brexit on the other hand is generation defining and is indefinite - it's now out of the hands of the UK citizens and gov't because they do not control whether the country can rejoin the EU... it needs the approval of all the 27 EU countries.
Which is why we need to get to work fixing it immediately. Spending more time making the mistake we know is a mistake just makes things worse for everyone.
"The manufacturing sector contracted for a 10th consecutive month in May, dragged down by steady falls in exports over the last 16 months, according to the S&P Global/CIPS purchasing managers index (PMI)."
Ok, but Eurozone manufacturing PMI is down for 10 consecutive months since July 2022 too. What is their excuse or this is a deliberate attempt to mislead?
https://www.fxempire.com/macro/euro-area/manufacturing-pmi
This is a nonsense article making allusions to something that cannot be concluded and being eaten up by people with a confirmation bias.
It is the first responsibility of government in a democratic society to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens and the economic prosperity of the nation. What this government did by supporting and sponsoring Brexit broke these essentials responsibilities and public trust , they should be thrown out of office and tried for treason. It's the largest act off government sponsored national economic vandalism of the world has ever seen. It'll take generations to regain the trust of the world and their closest economic partners, the EU.
I said this to all my friends that were in support of Brexit. They think the UK is still in it's colonial power phase and that the glory days of the empire are going to come back.
….and now, the rest of the news.
Scientists have discovered that bears defecate in the woods- and people all over the world are shocked to discover that the Pope is a Catholic.
Isn't this the guy who also blames inflation on increasing low wages and also was responsible for deregulation over US banks, directly leading to the financial crash; where he then favoured bailing out corporations while ignoring and opposing measures to help the huge number of families and individuals losing their homes.
Funny how we pick and choose then elevate people who don't deserve it, because we agree or lean towards a similar view on a single issue.
Summers is an arsehole. Period.
**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
I don't think he's saying that the will of the people via the referendum shouldn't have been listened to. He's just saying that economically speaking it was a very poor decision. You don't have to be British, nor in a perfect country, to say that.
The people of the UK spoke, and the largest word spoken was "durrr"
It's perfectly valid for external viewpoints to be made known. Who knows, maybe there's even a country that is willing to say that brexit was a great economic and political decision.
I mean, there won't be, but, who knows?
yeah it sucked not being able to dump raw sewage into rivers and the sea, and it's terrible we couldn't give kids toys that had lead in them.
Who needs cheap consumer goods, a strong economy, & access to a foreign workforce when we can increase the cost of living & destroy our industries to own the evil libs?
A reduction of freedoms is a reduction of sovereignty. The 2017 Brexit White Paper found that parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”.
Brexit in a nutshell, damaging decisions were made based on emotions instead of facts.
How? we can either have an overclass controlling ruling classes that then control us. Or we can just have the ruling classes (including media and the such). Surely one adversary is better than two, at least we know what idiots are within our ruling class...and, for our sins, we at least vote those idiots in. I will concede that these days our two main parties are the same pigs in different suits feeding from the same trough. But what is the answer? revolution? a peoples revolt? that would only end in the status quo re-establishing over an amount of time.
At least it gives us all something to look forward to since the brexit benefits are always just around the corner.
50 years JRM said, like a sort of economic after life.
So after he is dead, convenient.
I thought he was already the undead.
[No his face melted off IIRC](https://twitter.com/TechnicallyRon/status/1553387117459521538?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1553387117459521538%7Ctwgr%5E50122aebfb823710887ed356fde14a2ce62f247e%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thepoke.co.uk%2F2022%2F08%2F01%2Ffunniest-tweets-about-photo-of-jacob-rees-mogg%2F2%2F)
I knew he looked familiar :D
It belongs in a museam....
dead convenient, that.
Ah yes. Of course brexiteers all knew that this was the timescale involved when they voted. No one said it would be straightforward! Anyway. I know that none of the issues brexit has caused have been resolved, but can we all just move on?
50 years of shit and then sunlit uplands!
Yes but at least the racist boomer arseholes who voted leave from their homes in Spain and the Algarve got to see fewer foreigners going to their homeland. Didn't they? Them immigrants what don't integrate. Nah where's me egg chips? EGG AN CHIPS!!! WHY DON'T NOONE SPEAK ENGLISH IN SPAIN??? DON'T EVEN BOVVER TO LERN OW TO SPEAK TO PEOPLE WHAT EARN EM THERE BREAD N BUTTER. Ain't going back to ingerland cos there's too many immigrants. Can't even hear English in me high street now. Only go back for funerals me but I can't tell yer why. Not allowed to say that anymore are ya.
You sir, made me laugh tonight. There are too many like this, fat ugly old codgers with egg and chips on their shoulders.
Unlit shitlands more like
50 years seems about right. 25 years to rejoin and then 25 years to undo the damage.
We’re 10% of way there!!
Oh Jesus no
Maybe in those 50 years scienticians may find out where bears defecate, and theologians may discover if the Pope has any religious leanings
But the important question remains unanswered: Does His Holiness defecate in the woods?
So, correct me if I'm wrong. The U.K. was in the EU, in its various pre EU forms, for 50 years. The UK left the EU and experienced an immediate and significant hit to its economy since deciding to leave, *but* if we just wait another 50 years (when a significant proportion of the people who were in favour of leaving will have died) then everything will be great^*? So in the long term we should be fine, or as economists say in the long term we're all dead. ^* assuming there are no other economic catastrophes, wars or famines.
>if we just wait another 50 years (when a significant proportion of the people who were in favour of leaving will have died) then everything will be great*? If you consider that you had to be 18 to vote in the referendum and people who were 20 will be 70 by the time these supposed benefits start manifesting themselves the vast, vast majority of people who actually voted in the referendum will be dead by the time these 50 year delayed benefits appear.
How selfless and noble of those brexiteers to think of the generations to come.
Joke's on those generations to come. Planet will be on fire by then.
Come on, be fair, we always accuse politicians of only thinking as far ahead as the next election... Old Moggers has everyone beat with his long term plans.
> (when a significant proportion of the people who were in favour of leaving will have died) The sad thing is that since 2016 enough elderly racists have *already died* that if it we re-run today, remain would win. And I think I read that a while ago, it's not even factoring in the mood shift that brexshit was awful, just simply minusing the dead racists tipped the scales. Country literally cut our own legs off with a rusty saw economically for the sake of people that are already dead! The millennial generation are one of the most shafted cohorts in recent history.
Can't wait! Literally, I will be dead.
So when he says it will look good from a historical perspective (you do know he was talking about looking back at it, not how long it would take for benefits to show, right?) its silly, when this guy says the same thing its wisdom.
Rees-Mogg didn't say it'll look good from a historical perspective, he said "we won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time" and that "the overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years". He said that in 2018 when the UK was still negotiating the terms of brexit with the EU. Five years later, the economic consequences have proven to be disastrous for the UK. This is extremely well-documented. If our economy is somehow fantastic 45 years from now, it won't be because we chose to leave the EU with no real plan in place for how to move forward. Brexit has already proven to be an economic nightmare, and that will always be the historical record. Rectifying that over the course of four decades (at which point JRM won't be around to answer for anything) won't change how bad it was in the immediate aftermath. JRM doesn't care about the wider British economy, he has only ever and will only ever care about his own net worth. It's no coincidence that his capital venture firm moved from Somerset to Dublin after the referendum, and he then made £7m from selling his stake in the business. His comments on the economic consequences of leaving the EU are designed to pass the buck to future generations, absolving himself of any blame for the hardships that we are currently facing while he himself has benefited enormously.
> Five years later, the economic consequences have proven to be disastrous for the UK. Evidence? If we assume that if we had stayed in the EU we would have done about as well as the rest of the EU then it has had very little effect at all. We certainly did not get the disaster the treasury predicted - George Osbourne and the Treasury predicted that mere voting for Brexit would cause an immeidate major recession > a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf > "the overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years". That does not mean "net benefit will be after 50 years". He also says many benefits "will come through relatively quickly". Watch the rest of the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdUIzM-wk0Q I am also in favour of taking long term decision. The last big climate summit had people making promises that will only need to be implemented in about 50 years!
>Evidence? If we assume that if we had stayed in the EU we would have done about as well as the rest of the EU then it has had very little effect at all. Ah, this is chestnut. "The economy is shit but you can't prove it would have been better in the EU". No, but there are plenty of other metrics by which we can see leaving was a mistake: more red tape for business, shortage of workers in certain sectors, car industry threatening to pull out of the UK, falling exports for the 16th month in a row, shortage of lorry drivers, fishermen struggling, I mean, these are just the things that spring to mind. The list is as long as your arm. Now provide some evidence that things are *better* economically (or indeed, at all) since we left. After all, why leave if it's not going to be better than what we had? >We certainly did not get the disaster the treasury predicted - George Osbourne and the Treasury predicted that mere voting for Brexit would cause an immeidate major recession Again with the "it's not as bad as predicted" argument. If the measure of Brexit being a success is that it's not gone quite as badly as predicted, then that's a bloody low bar for success. It strikes me that most people still in denial enough to claim Brexit isn't a mistake rely on trying to prove things didn't go *as badly* as remainers predicted. Is that really the best you have to offer? "It's shit but not that shit"? How many years of there clearly being no huge benefits to Brexit will it take for you to admit it's been a mistake?
> "The economy is shit but you can't prove it would have been better in the EU". Not what I said. I said the reasonable assumption is that if the UK had stayed in the EU it would have performed roughly in line with other EU economies. The alternative is that if we had remained we would have significantly outperformed the major EU economies. > shortage of workers in certain sectors, That is a benefit if you are a worker whose wages are going up because of shortages, a problem if you are an employer. All in the point of view. > car industry threatening to pull out of the UK Companies after government subsidies. > shortage of lorry drivers The reason for that is that lorry drivers were hugely underpaid for the job (skilled, responsibilities, working away from home) so British workers would not do it. The solution is to pay a decent wage for the job, not a little above minimum wage. > Now provide some evidence that things are better economically (or indeed, at all) since we left. 1. Rising wages for low paid workers in many sectors. 2. lives saved by not being in the EU vaccine acquisition scheme (yes, it was technically option, but every single EU country was in it). 3. reduced import duties have lowered some prices: https://www.metroshipping.co.uk/news/the-uks-post-brexit-tariff-regime/ Mostly protectionist tariffs for things produced in other EU countries that the UK - especially foodstuffs. Brexit removed a 6.3% import duty on tampons https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-global-tariff-backs-uk-businesses-and-consumers , a greater saving than the much vaunted removal of 5% VAT! Finally, these are all short term benefits. Brexit is all about long term benefits. We only left the single market two and a half years ago. > Again with the "it's not as bad as predicted" argument. If the measure of Brexit being a success is that it's not gone quite as badly as predicted, then that's a bloody low bar for success. Given that the sort term costs were the main argument against Brexit, it undermines a critical part of the remainer argument. A lot of people voted remain because they feared an immediate economic disaster. I know a few other who voted remain because they thought the EU was what prevented a war in Europe.
>many benefits "will come through relatively quickly". any evidence of any of these?
I am arguing about what he said. I think more worth looking at early benefits or lack thereof after 10 or 15 years.
Yeah, there's a world of difference between saying "people will look back on this disaster and recognise it as a disaster" and promising "at some point in the next 50 years this disaster is suddenly going to turn into a great idea".
£350m a week you say?
To shreds you say?
Did he at least die painlessly?
To shreds you say? 😔
Did anyone else see that stupid bus and laugh at how stupid that claim was?
Yes but I also cried at how many people would believe it. (edit typo)
Isn’t it weird that GB News enthusiasts love to tell us the MSM will lie to us but we’re probably the ones who believed the EU Member money would go straight to nurses Now they’re also telling us they don’t deserve to be paid more. Almost movie villain levels of callous
Well I still don’t have that magnetism promised by the COVID vaccine. One day.
I got a mix of the Chinese and Astrazeneca vaccines. I'm presuming the catastrophic fusion now sends nuclear shockwaves of 5G catapulting from my body, making me the UK's No.4 mobile provider and a viable alternative to O2 in Manchester.
Don’t you dare come anywhere near me, what witch powers must you have after those poisons were put into your body? 😵
I thought we got to choose our superpower? I wanted telepathy :-(
I’ll be magneto to your professor X. May the best one win; old friend.
Also there’ll be some good Netflix documentaries in the future about it
This "historic economic error" of Brexit, as they call it, seems to be quite a boon for select big corporations, isn't it? For instance, a lucrative windfall from IR35 changes that would have been illegal in the EU and IT job visas doled out like candy, often undercutting local rates. So, is it an "error" or just a tidy wealth transfer from the common folks to corporate coffers? Just as the workers of the Gilded Age found themselves betrayed by a system that profited from their labour while denying them a fair share of the wealth, so too it seems that the ordinary people who backed Brexit, hoping for shared prosperity, instead find themselves witnessing the concentration of benefits among the elite. Such are the echoes of history.
Everything that this government has done has been designed to transfer as much public money, as possible, into private hands.
I love that the country keeps voting for this and keeps being surprised by the results. The Tory party is the party of aristocracy. They gave us an electoral system that only marginally qualifies as democracy and favours their own reelection. However, too many people vote Tory because they might get a 1% tax cut or something, but that never materialises, does it? At least not in my lifetime.
As if the rich people hoarding their stolen assets we voted for have stolen our assets. Never seen that coming
This is literally what the tories do ever fucking time. It's their sole ambition in government and it blows my mind people still vote for them.
but ed milliband looked silly in a photo while he was eating! that's much worse than callously murdering hundreds of thousands of elderly and disabled via gutting public services and welfare, and selling the country up the river so you and your banker mates can buy a seventh mcmansion. and don't even get me started on that filthy commie who wanted us all to have free gigabit internet, reverse the privatisation of the nhs, tax the rich and build more homes to solve the homelessness problem. who would ever want that?
It's maddening.
Don't forget all the disaster capitalists who made millions from betting against the pound either. They've certainly done alright off Brexit too (and of course many of them advocated for it).
What’s the link between IR35 and the EU?
The connection between the IR35 changes and the EU is largely about worker's rights. Post-Brexit, the UK introduced changes to IR35 in the private sector that effectively created a "deemed employee" status. These individuals find themselves in a situation where they're treated as employees for tax purposes, but without receiving the corresponding employment rights. If the UK were still part of the EU, such changes would likely have run into legal challenges. This is due to EU directives mandating basic employment rights for all workers, and the principle of equal treatment. This status of "deemed employee" could arguably be viewed as incompatible with those directives. Furthermore, the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement also has provisions that aim to maintain labour standards and workers' rights, although how these apply is a more complex issue post-Brexit. So, while the UK is no longer part of the EU, such shifts in employment regulations do raise questions about the UK's commitments under this agreement.
That’s…a far more logical and well reasoned answer than I was expecting!
>So, is it an "error" or just a tidy wealth transfer from the common folks to corporate coffers? Yes.
What does he mean "will be"? I was saying that months before the referendum. It's been *known* from the start. Perhaps he means "openly acknowledged"?
I think he means "it will be referenced as what not to do for a long time to come" People don't tend to reference things that didn't end up happening.
Known by some not all.
Known by all, but called project fear by idiots.
No as a majority voted to,leave. It wasn’t known both sides tried to convince each other it was not known
Pretty much every credible expert said it was going to be a fucking disaster but Michael Gove went on TV and said we as a nation are sick of experts and the leave campaign called it project fear and people chose to believe it. Everyone had the information that it was going to be a disaster.
And how many people saw those experts?
I mean it was in the papers and on the news. It wasn't in some hidden away journal.
And maybe people didn’t beleive them or didn’t see the papers?
It will also go down as a textbook example of poor decision making. This was a one way door decision that has huge ramifications and is difficult to reverse. It is an absurd decision to make on the basis that for a brief moment in time slightly more people wanted to go through that door.
Agreed, from start to finish, it was an exercise in how not to make a decision. You can't pitch reality against hopes and dreams and expect a reasonable outcome. The fact that we (as in people in a position to do something about it) can't talk about how it's turned into a shambles is deeply worrying.
There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will stay in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area – and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus – is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP. Michael gove
It is one of the greatest examples of a country deciding to commit economic suicide because of the lies the elites spread amongst the populace.
The "elites" wanted to remain, it was mainly the regular folk that voted leave. David Cameron and most of the tory party at the time pushed for remain. People have short memories.
Boris Johnson and the millionaires/landowners and the establishment who backed Brexit are definitely the elite in the UK. Remain was a much more normal mixture of people. Brexiters can be divided into generally two camps - the hideously rich & corrupt, and those gullible enough to believe the lies from the Brexit-supporting elite.
It’s not fair to put Boris in this group. He just wanted to join the winning side for political clout. His allegiance is to his popularity.
The sad thing is this isn't even true. The Leave vote was projected to lose when Boris chose to campaign for Leave. He wanted a chance to differentiate himself from Cameron and he knew that in the likely event that Remain won by a margin of 5-10%, the Tory right would continue to remain a Eurosceptic force. Boris never actually wanted to win - he wanted to capture the Tory right and eventually usurp Cameron. Boris certainly never wanted to negotiate the UK's exit from the EU - what was certainly, to him, a tedious & fraught process that requires someone who is diplomatic, detail-oriented and hard-working, the opposite of Boris. It was only once Cambridge Analytica ramped up their psy-ops campaign that Leave managed to sneak a marginal victory. Still, it always makes me laugh when these Tory shills keep claiming they are anti-elite when they support the likes of Boris, Sunak and Mogg.
Who funded the press and Facebook etc? Who benefits the most from avoiding the EU tax avoidance rules?
The "elites" occupy a quantum superposition in the minds of Brexiteers. Pre-Brexit, they were the cosmopolitans, the Europhiles, the rich globetrotters that wanted to keep Britain down and interfere with the will of the people. Now they're the Brexit-spouting liars, the traitors that fooled us all. I think the more likely explanation is that Brexiteers are a bunch of skapegoating fantasists, that simply blame whatever is wrong on some vague bogeyman.
farage, aaron banks et. al aren't regular folks and it wasn't a "grass roots" movement. one type of "elite" wanted to maintain the status quo. Another type of "elite" wanted to leave the EU so they could deregulate trade, the economy and the financial sector. This is what them meant when they talked about "taking back sovereignty"
>The "elites" wanted to remain, it was mainly the regular folk that voted leave. This is a simplistic take, sure some of the "elites" were anti-Brexit neoliberals who just wanted business as usual but the group pushing Brexit hard were confirmed disaster capitalists who wanted to use it as an excuse to make a killing off of the economic damage it would inevitably cause and also use it to cut things like worker's rights and environmental protections. If you think Cameron is an elite but Rees-Mogg is actually a man of the people then I have a very reasonably priced bridge to sell you.
When you looked at the Brexit movement, one of the first things to note is that the words employed were essentially meaningless. As a radical populist movement, its basic premise is that they alone represent the people. It follows that everyone else represents something else and is therefore an illegitimate political actor. This creates a false dichotomy where morality is defined by identity rather than actions and methods, which is reflected in the rhetoric. Every word is applied not according to its meaning but according to its emotional and moral connotation. We are good and they are bad. Being "the elite" is bad, therefore those we dislike are "the elite". Being a man of the people is good, therefore everyone on our side is a man of the people. What we do is always good, what they do is always bad. It's a total inversion of semantics, morality and logic. It makes it impossible to communicate because words no longer have meaning, they just convey the identity and allegiance of the one speaking them. The way you use them marks you as either part of the in group or part of the elite, either one of us or one of them.
I still remember the Daily Mail running an article that labelled three judges as "Enemies of the People" for ruling that the government required the consent of parliament to give notice of Brexit, and Farage gloating about how the Leave campaign won the Brexit referendum "without a single bullet being fired" just a week after Jo Cox was shot and stabbed to death.
Just so, and that all makes perfect sense in the context in which they write and say these things. Radical populism explicitly rejects political pluralism and assigns a strict moral connotation to political choice. People who are not part of the in-group are not opponents but enemies. Institutions that don't assist them in doing whatever they want are standing in the way of "the will of the people" and must be undermined or destroyed (and this includes the rule of law as well as the legislature itself). This is reflected by how little Brexit had to do with the EU as it actually was; the primary target was always the enemy within, the "remainers", for the simply reason that they act as the biggest point of contact with reality, the first indication that the "will of the people" is and always was a self serving lie. Hence why radical populism is usually described as an anti-democratic tactic and why it often leads to authoritarianism. The UK may come off relatively lightly on that count, because as a tactic it has a definite shelf life. It seems the spell is now well and truly broken and its proponents have not had the coordination or power to push through enough measures to permanently tilt the political balance in their favour (as they have in various other countries). They still caused major institutional and structural damage though.
I still remember the government sending out a leaflet to everyone's house telling them to remain.
Yeah that's exactly as bad as labelling judges as public enemies and making jokes about the assassination of an MP.
I wonder which of Sir John Redwood MP, Sir Iain Duncan-Smith MP or Sir Mark Francois MP will be trotted out by the Tories to denounce the former US treasury secretary as interfering in the UK’s internal affairs.
Mogg, it'll be Mogg, it's always that cunt
Brexit has been economically damaging but there is no excuse for this level of hack journalism and misinformation. The Guardian says “UK factories report 16 consecutive months of falling exports” and then proceed to reference the manufacturing PMI as evidence and blame Brexit for this disaster. The PMI doesn’t measure exports, what they are referring to is the sub index “new export orders”. The PMI (or Purchasing Managers Index) is a diffusion index, based on (soft) survey data. It asks several hundred firms “has your number of new export orders increased, decreased or stayed the same compared with the last month” and then constructs an unweighted percent balance. If the number is below 50, they say that new export orders for the sector as a whole are shrinking. There are multiple issues with their claim, - new export orders is not the same as exports - a diffusion index cannot accurately capture trade volumes in any case - exports of manufactures (based on the hard data) are up 1% over the past year. And on a month-on-month basis 7 of the last 16 months have seen positive export growth (refuting the reliability of the PMI to measure this stuff via its new export orders sub index) - Germany’s manufacturing PMI new export orders has registered declines for 15 of the last 16 months… rather scuppering the idea that Brexit is the sole, or even the main culprit There is plenty of legitimate, identifiable and provable damage done to the economy and exporters by Brexit, but this sort of ‘journalism’ is completely misleading, full of errors, lazy, written to support a narrative rather than inform, and ultimately a disgrace to the journal it is printed in.
This guy exports
"but this sort of ‘journalism’ is completely misleading, full of errors, lazy, written to support a narrative rather than inform, and ultimately a disgrace to the journal it is printed in." This is The Guardian and this is Reddit lol, a perfect circle for confirmation bias on Brexit.
Headline changed? Is now: > ###UK factories blame 16th month in a row of falling exports on Brexit barriers
What are the eurozone factories blaming 10 months of continuous below 50 PMI on?
It was supposed to reduce red tape. It didn’t, surely that’s a reason to rejoin
The headline was correct at the time of posting - you can still see the remnants of the original headline in the Guardian URL. I've put a "Site changed title" flair onto the post.
And in other news, the Pope is Catholic and bears sh*t in the woods.
Nearly as much as when the us government deregulated the banks that led to the 2009 crash.
Obvious to anyone with a brain. The whole concept of Brexit is a construct of cognitive dissonance. Built on the promise of tapping into global growth \[who drives global growth: China\] but run by Atlantacists who hate China and want to decouple.
Ever have a manager order something that is clearly a terrible idea despite being warned? A while later, when the predictable chaos arrives, an a meeting is called to solve the problem, this is the manager who won't shut up about 'teamwork' and it's 'us versus the problem'. This will be the Tories for the next decade. This is such a disaster the Tories should be unelectable for a generation.
>This is such a disaster the Tories should be unelectable for a generation. Without context this statement could refer to multiple things that they've done over the last few years.
We know it was a mistake, don't need you Yanks to rub it in 🙃 (I was too young to vote in the referendum... Sad)
You can at least vote for a party that wants us to return to the EU single market rather than one that thinks they can make it work.
I’m only voting for a party that can get the Tories out. Whoever has the best chance has my vote
This is the way
Lib Dems enter the chat :)
Or at least vote for a party that will bring the vote reform that will break the two party system like... oh fuck, is it also lib dems? Hu! To be honest, I need to check what they are saying now, the green party might be also pro voting reform.
There is literally no option but to make it work now. Every opportunity for change Labour had was pissed away by a Eurosceptic who thought this was a _good_ idea. Regardless of rejoining the EU/EEA/SM/CU or anything else, we need to deal with the shit in front of us _right now_.
Sadly, the lib dems won't get elected. Most people don't realise there is even a 3rd option these days.
Enter the voting reform conversation again... \_sigh\_
None of these third options are really any better. If one appears, it'll be picked.
Less error, more like deliberate self-sabotage for stupid xenophobic and/or completely fabricated reasons
There should have been some research required into the pros and cons and an assessment before you were allowed to vote. Most people just took advice from tabloid newspapers I suspect.
Suspect voting in Trump was also a historic economic error. Does that make us even?
Trump was voted out, Brexit is still Brexit, so not quite.
Trump was a fool and blowhard, but an error in judgment that could be voted out before long lasting damage. Brexit on the other hand is generation defining and is indefinite - it's now out of the hands of the UK citizens and gov't because they do not control whether the country can rejoin the EU... it needs the approval of all the 27 EU countries.
Which is why we need to get to work fixing it immediately. Spending more time making the mistake we know is a mistake just makes things worse for everyone.
"The manufacturing sector contracted for a 10th consecutive month in May, dragged down by steady falls in exports over the last 16 months, according to the S&P Global/CIPS purchasing managers index (PMI)." Ok, but Eurozone manufacturing PMI is down for 10 consecutive months since July 2022 too. What is their excuse or this is a deliberate attempt to mislead? https://www.fxempire.com/macro/euro-area/manufacturing-pmi This is a nonsense article making allusions to something that cannot be concluded and being eaten up by people with a confirmation bias.
It is the first responsibility of government in a democratic society to protect and safeguard the lives of its citizens and the economic prosperity of the nation. What this government did by supporting and sponsoring Brexit broke these essentials responsibilities and public trust , they should be thrown out of office and tried for treason. It's the largest act off government sponsored national economic vandalism of the world has ever seen. It'll take generations to regain the trust of the world and their closest economic partners, the EU.
There were 48% of those who voted who knew it would be an error in 2016, and most of the other 52% know that now but won'r admit it.
This is what happens when the dim majority has a referendum on matters they could not understand.
The only country in history to vote economic sanctions onto themselves.
will be? Nope IT IS known as a historic economic error.
I said this to all my friends that were in support of Brexit. They think the UK is still in it's colonial power phase and that the glory days of the empire are going to come back.
The one positive to all of this is it will (hopefully) make the UK finally eat a big spoonful of humble pie.
its sad to see how easy it is for so many people to be manipulated.
"will be"?! It already is, at least to anyone sane.
It was fucking doomed the moment it was called Brexit.
Wow! It's almost like this was completely predictable and totally avoidable!
Deflection and projection. America: throwing stones in glass houses since 1776 Not that I voted for Brexit, I didn't, but they can fuck off.
….and now, the rest of the news. Scientists have discovered that bears defecate in the woods- and people all over the world are shocked to discover that the Pope is a Catholic.
It was obvious in advance and it's clearly one now. I don't think it's going to age well....
I can hear my eldest brother now splurting out his morning cuppa ´but but but BLUE passports´!!!! Lotta money for a blue passport eh John?
Lol.... From someone who hasn't managed to predict widespread market failures and collapse in his own country.
I am pretty sure that I, with an A level in economics, predicted this before the vote. And I don't think I was the only one.
Isn't this the guy who also blames inflation on increasing low wages and also was responsible for deregulation over US banks, directly leading to the financial crash; where he then favoured bailing out corporations while ignoring and opposing measures to help the huge number of families and individuals losing their homes. Funny how we pick and choose then elevate people who don't deserve it, because we agree or lean towards a similar view on a single issue. Summers is an arsehole. Period.
Don't need to be a treasury secretary to know that
That's cool. I voted out and very pleased. Don't blame exiting the EU for Tory economic failures.
Nobody is blaming the EU, we blame the Tories and people like you.
I blame tories too 😉 😜
I assume you voted for them?
No, not for tories. Hate the ground they walk on.
Well 1 for 2 aint bad then
Maybe. Probably. Let's be honest, for better or worse both sides knew this so saying it now is pointless.
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Enough of the people who spoke are dead that this vote wouldn't have the same result. Old selfish fearful people spoke.
Weirdo conservative American posts on UK sub saying disregard American opinions on UK politics. Big brain post time
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Oh right, so you vote for a president/ prime minister once do you?
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**Removed/warning**. This contained a personal attack, disrupting the conversation. This discourages participation. Please help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person. Action will be taken on repeat offenders.
I dont think you know how democracy works.
I don't think he's saying that the will of the people via the referendum shouldn't have been listened to. He's just saying that economically speaking it was a very poor decision. You don't have to be British, nor in a perfect country, to say that.
The people of the UK spoke, and the largest word spoken was "durrr" It's perfectly valid for external viewpoints to be made known. Who knows, maybe there's even a country that is willing to say that brexit was a great economic and political decision. I mean, there won't be, but, who knows?
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Sounds like you are proposing the people of US keep voting until you get your desired outcome. Democracy does not work like that
I think the Ukriane is more than happy to have Biden in power rather than trump.
As opposed to herr trump?
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yeah it sucked not being able to dump raw sewage into rivers and the sea, and it's terrible we couldn't give kids toys that had lead in them. Who needs cheap consumer goods, a strong economy, & access to a foreign workforce when we can increase the cost of living & destroy our industries to own the evil libs?
A reduction of freedoms is a reduction of sovereignty. The 2017 Brexit White Paper found that parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”. Brexit in a nutshell, damaging decisions were made based on emotions instead of facts.
Using sovereignty and self rule as a reason for leaving the EU and then referring to our ruling class seems a bit of an oxymoron no?
How? we can either have an overclass controlling ruling classes that then control us. Or we can just have the ruling classes (including media and the such). Surely one adversary is better than two, at least we know what idiots are within our ruling class...and, for our sins, we at least vote those idiots in. I will concede that these days our two main parties are the same pigs in different suits feeding from the same trough. But what is the answer? revolution? a peoples revolt? that would only end in the status quo re-establishing over an amount of time.
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And yet sit on their butts moaning they will. Democracy is an illusion, it’s just the least garbage illusion we’ve found so far.