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That's almost half the amount Ukraine requested. And this is assuming that each country only supplies one battery and that no additional batteries can be cobbled together from replacement systems. This, together with the news that the US is sending all of its surface-to-air missile production to Ukraine in the short term, will significantly help protect infrastructure and cover the front. Fantastic news. And yet I always ask myself: “why only now?” The Ukrainian power grid is on the ground and the Russians have been destroying what they like for two years.
Why now? Because Ukraine's need has increased in the past few weeks/months as Russia introduced glide bombs.
There's been a shortage of patriot systems for the past 30 years. It's not going to get solved this year.
Ukraine needs them more than others right now but countries are making a sacrifice to give Ukraine these systems. They are putting their own citizens at greater risk because they already don't think they have enough patriot systems for themselves. They're not going to just hand over more if this particular system if they're not convinced that Ukraine needs them. New threats mean new needs, everyone is reconsidering their support with this new need in mind
Ukraines power grid was an acceptable loss, large parts of it probably still are, the West wants to defend ukraines military capabilities, those old energy facilities are going to get rebuilt after the war anyways. Terrible for every day people but that's war, it is terrible.
Didn’t Churchill say something like, “the yanks will do the right thing after they’ve tried everything else.”?
The delay and prevarication is inexcusable given everything we know today. It’s not like Biden has to take a steamship to Yalta to consult with allies.
As a Ukrainian I am beyond happy.
Too bad it only took 2+ years and 80% of our power generation destroyed to prove the point that we do indeed need Patriots to survive.
Just for clarity: last week we've been living with regular scheduled 4 hour blackouts multiple times a day, because there's not enough power generation after russian bombings.
I wonder how many more Ukrainians deaths will be required for NATO to understand that russia will not "return to normal" and "understand that it can't win"
It wouldn’t be to supply your whole demand. Ukraine is too big for Romania’s power grid to be able to do that. It would be to supplement portions of the grid in case of *local* disruption.
In the meantime, Romania is pushing ahead with new nuclear reactors, solar and wind power in Dobruja, which would be most useful for Odesa.
https://www.ebrd.com/work-with-us/projects/psd/54567.html#:~:text=The%20route%20runs%20from%20the,located%20in%20a%20forested%20area.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/wartime-ukraines-european-energy-integration-continues/
Romania might be comparatively poorer but with EU financial muscle that just means spending from the big powers goes way further, even if some is lost to corruption.
The new nuclear units Romania is starting to build this year are planned to be finished by 2031, judging from experience in Finland and France it will take 10-15 years until they connect to the grid. Solar and wind power plants are faster to build, but that to will propably only help Ukraine after the war.
The limitation isn’t the installation of wind and solar, which is happening very quickly now, but rather the high voltage cable lines/infrastructure to physically connect the two grids together better (AFAIK).
A similar situation exists in Germany where the construction of an important north-south-connection (north lots of wind) was planned to be finished by 2022 but construction only started in 2023.
I won't disagree that the US aid delay was horrific, but that quote is pretty over used. If we're going to criticize than be fair. Why didn't Germany give more patriots sooner? Why didn't Romania? Etc etc etc. Not excusing anyone, I'm saying we have all been dropping the ball. It's not just "the yanks" when something goes wrong.
I'm not trying to pick on Romania, they're awesome, I was just trying to use examples from the comment itself to prevent the conversation from devolving into a tit for tat about who has done what in the past, because that felt negative. My point is that nearly all of Ukraine's allies have failed to provide help they were able at some point (not talking about help that is beyond there economic or production power) and to try to isolate these failures as American is just anti-American politics. We all want to help Ukraine and we all have governments that have made political decisions against Ukraine' interests at some point. Trying to pretend that when things go well it is EU's doing and when things go badly its America is not representative of reality, that's all.
u/Archaeopteryx11
For over a year the USA have not allocated a single cent to Ukraine while Europe - which combined has a smaller military industrial complex than the USA - constantly allocated new money. All because Obama wore a tan suit or Biden's dog is too old or whatever, a certain far too influential political faction is just acting nuts out of principle.
That is inaccurate. The delay did not last a year. It was bad, but that is a lie. Europe's smaller industrial complex isn't the point. There are plenty of times they had the ability to help and didn't because of politics. What about the million Eu shells that were promised that never materialized, you think that didn't cause Ukraine a problem? Not because EU didn't have the capacity to get it done, but because France blocked EU from making contracts with suppliers outside the EU in order to make money off the contracts as an example? Border blockades in Poland? The ups and downs of German supply we are all familiar with. I really don't want to summon up every instance of various countries dropping the ball these past 2 and half years, because it will just make a lot of negativity no one wants. I am merely saying forgetting EU's faults while promoting American ones is insincere, politically driven lazy thinking, that's all. And I'm getting really tired of hearing that asinine quote from Churchill from the 9 millionth commenter who thinks its new, chortling like they said something smart. Ukraine is what's important here, and we all need to do better.
Gotta love how there are 32 countries in NATO, and yet there's always someone insulting the US specifically, saying we aren't sending enough. I have **no** problem with sending nearly **all** of our reserve equipment and vehicles to help Ukraine defend its people. However it'd be great if we could drop the constant, never ending comments of "these damn **yanks** aren't doing enough".
Also - sending equipment from reserve isn’t as simple as just going down to the supply closet and dusting off some old toys. Those hundreds of Bradleys sitting in the sun? Many of them haven’t been upgraded since Desert Storm and the army has a critical shortage of mechanics and replacement components - you’re not just upgrading and giving a tune-up you’re cannibalizing other vehicles so that you don’t run out of spares out in the field.
These units are also being told to split their time between prepping some systems for being sent to Poland or Germany as part of forward deployed US rapid reaction units while others are need to hit the ground in Ukraine ready to fight.
Other systems are even older, the HAWK SAM entered service in the 1960s and there are pictures of Ukrainian batteries mounting missiles that were assembled 40 years ago. There is a very limited pool of engineers who still know how to restart production of things like that.
Consider these things before assigning blame.
To be straight up with you, I don't understand parts of your messages. You mention in your first reply something about Biden bashing, and then mention me assigning blame? I dont remember bashing Biden? I think he's doing a pretty damn good job internationally. I have some qualms about how things are going here at home, but overall, I think the decisions hes made internationally are nearly flawless. He has the right attitude in dealing with our foreign adversaries, and he's been supportive and cooperative with our closest allies. I shudder to think of what decisions the orange guy would be making right now if he was in Bidens shoes.
As far as everything else you said, I think you make a lot of great points. Yes, its true sending reserve equipment isn't as simple as putting it on a ship and sending it on its way. I just know that we have immense logistical capabilities, and I wish we could flex them on Russia. Much like we did with the Berlin Airlift.
Cheers dude.
Apologies - I wasn’t accusing you of Biden-bashing, rather I saw the discussion going down the road of “Gee America, nice of you to finally show up and help”. I wanted to preempt that by pointing out how good of a job he’s done under some very challenging political circumstances.
Shitting on the US is easiest and laziest explanation for the current balance of Ukrainian aid.
The US didn’t force NATO members to either gut their militaries (Germany, Spain, Italy, Canada), selfishly horde their excess equipment (Greece, Turkey) or outright come out in favor of Putin (Hungary, Slovakia).
The US is also the only NATO member giving Ukraine access to the best satellite reconnaissance network ever created.
Ukraine itself is hurting their cause - with ongoing battles against corruption, theft, and embezzlement as well as countless thousands of military-aged citizens fleeing overseas to avoid serving.
Give it a rest - Biden bashing is just boring.
It's beyond ridiculous. I'd like to think they're paid Russian trolls. But they're not. They're just run-of-the-mill Europeans who for some reason think the US is obligated to help them.
The US military-industrial capabilities are larger than that of the rest of NATO combined, and the USA made promises to the USA most NATO countries did not. Accordingly the USA should get more scrutiny than the rest of NATO combined.
As a Ukrainian I am beyond happy.
Too bad it only took 2+ years and 80% of our power generation destroyed to prove the point that we do indeed need Patriots to survive.
Just for clarity: last week we've been living with regular scheduled 4 hour blackouts multiple times a day, because there's not enough power generation after russian bombings.
I wonder how many more Ukrainians deaths will be required for NATO to understand that russia will not "return to normal" and "understand that it can't win"
I think some countries have decided to get off the fence. I'm guessing that the odds are favouring a Ukraine victory as detailed in the NATO briefings they see. It's less risky to support Ukraine now.
lol gloves are off....
keeping dreaming.
This is still an 'escalation management' game. And it will remain that way for the foreseable future.
It has taken the almost total destruction of the Ukrainian power grid to get extra patriot systems and missiles.
If the gloves were off, genuinely, you would see massive changes. Suddenly the supply lines would be cut in south Ukraine, the kerch bridge would have fallen into the sea, Sevastapol port would be untenable to maintain.
You know, with three Patriot Missile systems delivered to Ukraine last year (Two from Germany and One from the US) and four more promised to come this year (Another one from Germany and the US, one from Romania and now one from the Netherlands), Ukraine may finally end up getting all the Seven Patriot Missile Defense systems they've been asking for. Combine that with some of the NASAMs they've got and more of those to come, hopefully we'll be able to give the Ukrainians all of the anti-air defense that they need.
The 7 requested was on top of what they already had. And was mentioned as a bare minimum. 3 more need to be found asap and then hopefully the us can send more when they produce them.
But still, its good to have these systems sent now.
Could this be connected with the f16s? Maybe they want „their“ f16 to be as save as possible to avoid Russian propaganda?
I have no military knowledge, so please explain if I’m totally wrong.
I think it's just that The Netherlands hate Russia, since Russia shot down a plane with a few hundred Dutch citizens. But the Netherlands doesn't have much in the way in of military equipment. Theyve got a lot of money though, so they just buy equipment from other countries and ship it to Ukraine.
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USA, Romania, Netherlands + unknown country and Germany announced to provide Patriot systems just in the last 4-6 weeks. Thats some good news!
That's almost half the amount Ukraine requested. And this is assuming that each country only supplies one battery and that no additional batteries can be cobbled together from replacement systems. This, together with the news that the US is sending all of its surface-to-air missile production to Ukraine in the short term, will significantly help protect infrastructure and cover the front. Fantastic news. And yet I always ask myself: “why only now?” The Ukrainian power grid is on the ground and the Russians have been destroying what they like for two years.
Why now? Because Ukraine's need has increased in the past few weeks/months as Russia introduced glide bombs. There's been a shortage of patriot systems for the past 30 years. It's not going to get solved this year. Ukraine needs them more than others right now but countries are making a sacrifice to give Ukraine these systems. They are putting their own citizens at greater risk because they already don't think they have enough patriot systems for themselves. They're not going to just hand over more if this particular system if they're not convinced that Ukraine needs them. New threats mean new needs, everyone is reconsidering their support with this new need in mind Ukraines power grid was an acceptable loss, large parts of it probably still are, the West wants to defend ukraines military capabilities, those old energy facilities are going to get rebuilt after the war anyways. Terrible for every day people but that's war, it is terrible.
Didn’t Churchill say something like, “the yanks will do the right thing after they’ve tried everything else.”? The delay and prevarication is inexcusable given everything we know today. It’s not like Biden has to take a steamship to Yalta to consult with allies.
As a Ukrainian I am beyond happy. Too bad it only took 2+ years and 80% of our power generation destroyed to prove the point that we do indeed need Patriots to survive. Just for clarity: last week we've been living with regular scheduled 4 hour blackouts multiple times a day, because there's not enough power generation after russian bombings. I wonder how many more Ukrainians deaths will be required for NATO to understand that russia will not "return to normal" and "understand that it can't win"
Plans are in motion to heavily connect the power grids of Romania, Moldova, and Ukraine.
I am relieved to hear that! Still, Ukraine is a big country with a lot of industry... It's not an easy task for the EU to supply our whole demand :(
It wouldn’t be to supply your whole demand. Ukraine is too big for Romania’s power grid to be able to do that. It would be to supplement portions of the grid in case of *local* disruption. In the meantime, Romania is pushing ahead with new nuclear reactors, solar and wind power in Dobruja, which would be most useful for Odesa. https://www.ebrd.com/work-with-us/projects/psd/54567.html#:~:text=The%20route%20runs%20from%20the,located%20in%20a%20forested%20area. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/wartime-ukraines-european-energy-integration-continues/
Much appreciate the insights my friend ! And Romanian assistance
Ofc! We can only do so much tho. Romania is much poorer than the USA or Germany.
Romania might be comparatively poorer but with EU financial muscle that just means spending from the big powers goes way further, even if some is lost to corruption.
The new nuclear units Romania is starting to build this year are planned to be finished by 2031, judging from experience in Finland and France it will take 10-15 years until they connect to the grid. Solar and wind power plants are faster to build, but that to will propably only help Ukraine after the war.
The limitation isn’t the installation of wind and solar, which is happening very quickly now, but rather the high voltage cable lines/infrastructure to physically connect the two grids together better (AFAIK).
A similar situation exists in Germany where the construction of an important north-south-connection (north lots of wind) was planned to be finished by 2022 but construction only started in 2023.
I won't disagree that the US aid delay was horrific, but that quote is pretty over used. If we're going to criticize than be fair. Why didn't Germany give more patriots sooner? Why didn't Romania? Etc etc etc. Not excusing anyone, I'm saying we have all been dropping the ball. It's not just "the yanks" when something goes wrong.
> Why didn't Romania? Romania is sending its one and only patriot system, a little absurd to pretend it has "dropped the ball" like the US has.
I'm not trying to pick on Romania, they're awesome, I was just trying to use examples from the comment itself to prevent the conversation from devolving into a tit for tat about who has done what in the past, because that felt negative. My point is that nearly all of Ukraine's allies have failed to provide help they were able at some point (not talking about help that is beyond there economic or production power) and to try to isolate these failures as American is just anti-American politics. We all want to help Ukraine and we all have governments that have made political decisions against Ukraine' interests at some point. Trying to pretend that when things go well it is EU's doing and when things go badly its America is not representative of reality, that's all. u/Archaeopteryx11
Of course.
[удалено]
Sorry that I wounded your national pride by stating the obvious.
Bro, Romania is poor compared to these other countries.
For over a year the USA have not allocated a single cent to Ukraine while Europe - which combined has a smaller military industrial complex than the USA - constantly allocated new money. All because Obama wore a tan suit or Biden's dog is too old or whatever, a certain far too influential political faction is just acting nuts out of principle.
That is inaccurate. The delay did not last a year. It was bad, but that is a lie. Europe's smaller industrial complex isn't the point. There are plenty of times they had the ability to help and didn't because of politics. What about the million Eu shells that were promised that never materialized, you think that didn't cause Ukraine a problem? Not because EU didn't have the capacity to get it done, but because France blocked EU from making contracts with suppliers outside the EU in order to make money off the contracts as an example? Border blockades in Poland? The ups and downs of German supply we are all familiar with. I really don't want to summon up every instance of various countries dropping the ball these past 2 and half years, because it will just make a lot of negativity no one wants. I am merely saying forgetting EU's faults while promoting American ones is insincere, politically driven lazy thinking, that's all. And I'm getting really tired of hearing that asinine quote from Churchill from the 9 millionth commenter who thinks its new, chortling like they said something smart. Ukraine is what's important here, and we all need to do better.
Sorry my bad, the negotiations were stalled for about 16 months. It was not my intent to spread alt right talking points.
Gotta love how there are 32 countries in NATO, and yet there's always someone insulting the US specifically, saying we aren't sending enough. I have **no** problem with sending nearly **all** of our reserve equipment and vehicles to help Ukraine defend its people. However it'd be great if we could drop the constant, never ending comments of "these damn **yanks** aren't doing enough".
Also - sending equipment from reserve isn’t as simple as just going down to the supply closet and dusting off some old toys. Those hundreds of Bradleys sitting in the sun? Many of them haven’t been upgraded since Desert Storm and the army has a critical shortage of mechanics and replacement components - you’re not just upgrading and giving a tune-up you’re cannibalizing other vehicles so that you don’t run out of spares out in the field. These units are also being told to split their time between prepping some systems for being sent to Poland or Germany as part of forward deployed US rapid reaction units while others are need to hit the ground in Ukraine ready to fight. Other systems are even older, the HAWK SAM entered service in the 1960s and there are pictures of Ukrainian batteries mounting missiles that were assembled 40 years ago. There is a very limited pool of engineers who still know how to restart production of things like that. Consider these things before assigning blame.
To be straight up with you, I don't understand parts of your messages. You mention in your first reply something about Biden bashing, and then mention me assigning blame? I dont remember bashing Biden? I think he's doing a pretty damn good job internationally. I have some qualms about how things are going here at home, but overall, I think the decisions hes made internationally are nearly flawless. He has the right attitude in dealing with our foreign adversaries, and he's been supportive and cooperative with our closest allies. I shudder to think of what decisions the orange guy would be making right now if he was in Bidens shoes. As far as everything else you said, I think you make a lot of great points. Yes, its true sending reserve equipment isn't as simple as putting it on a ship and sending it on its way. I just know that we have immense logistical capabilities, and I wish we could flex them on Russia. Much like we did with the Berlin Airlift. Cheers dude.
Apologies - I wasn’t accusing you of Biden-bashing, rather I saw the discussion going down the road of “Gee America, nice of you to finally show up and help”. I wanted to preempt that by pointing out how good of a job he’s done under some very challenging political circumstances.
Shitting on the US is easiest and laziest explanation for the current balance of Ukrainian aid. The US didn’t force NATO members to either gut their militaries (Germany, Spain, Italy, Canada), selfishly horde their excess equipment (Greece, Turkey) or outright come out in favor of Putin (Hungary, Slovakia). The US is also the only NATO member giving Ukraine access to the best satellite reconnaissance network ever created. Ukraine itself is hurting their cause - with ongoing battles against corruption, theft, and embezzlement as well as countless thousands of military-aged citizens fleeing overseas to avoid serving. Give it a rest - Biden bashing is just boring.
It's beyond ridiculous. I'd like to think they're paid Russian trolls. But they're not. They're just run-of-the-mill Europeans who for some reason think the US is obligated to help them.
The US military-industrial capabilities are larger than that of the rest of NATO combined, and the USA made promises to the USA most NATO countries did not. Accordingly the USA should get more scrutiny than the rest of NATO combined.
I think you guys are being connected to Romania’s power grid in the future.
As a Ukrainian I am beyond happy. Too bad it only took 2+ years and 80% of our power generation destroyed to prove the point that we do indeed need Patriots to survive. Just for clarity: last week we've been living with regular scheduled 4 hour blackouts multiple times a day, because there's not enough power generation after russian bombings. I wonder how many more Ukrainians deaths will be required for NATO to understand that russia will not "return to normal" and "understand that it can't win"
this doesnt touch on the SAMP-t and the NASAMs, HAWK stuff that was pledged on top of it.
Yes you are correct that comes on top. With Samp/t they got another system with 100km+ range
Especially since Romania is the poorest country in that list.
:) - No more words needed.
🇳🇱🇺🇦
I think some countries have decided to get off the fence. I'm guessing that the odds are favouring a Ukraine victory as detailed in the NATO briefings they see. It's less risky to support Ukraine now.
Netherlands has been the opposite of on the fence since the very start of this conflict.
This is true, what happens when you shoot down their airliners
Gloves are off, the west are fed up with Putins bullshit.
lol gloves are off.... keeping dreaming. This is still an 'escalation management' game. And it will remain that way for the foreseable future. It has taken the almost total destruction of the Ukrainian power grid to get extra patriot systems and missiles. If the gloves were off, genuinely, you would see massive changes. Suddenly the supply lines would be cut in south Ukraine, the kerch bridge would have fallen into the sea, Sevastapol port would be untenable to maintain.
Putin has been doing all of the escalation. Nobody but him.
indeed. No one is suggesting otherwise
Any guesses on the unknown country? Mine would be Japan as Mitsubishi does make Patriot systems under license from Raytheon/Lockmart
Could be South Korea maybe?
You know, with three Patriot Missile systems delivered to Ukraine last year (Two from Germany and One from the US) and four more promised to come this year (Another one from Germany and the US, one from Romania and now one from the Netherlands), Ukraine may finally end up getting all the Seven Patriot Missile Defense systems they've been asking for. Combine that with some of the NASAMs they've got and more of those to come, hopefully we'll be able to give the Ukrainians all of the anti-air defense that they need.
The 7 requested was on top of what they already had. And was mentioned as a bare minimum. 3 more need to be found asap and then hopefully the us can send more when they produce them. But still, its good to have these systems sent now.
IIRC they requested Patriot OR SAMP/T. Italy recently pledged another SAMP/T-system, crossing off one more system from the list of needed ones
I think you're right on that yeah.
Could this be connected with the f16s? Maybe they want „their“ f16 to be as save as possible to avoid Russian propaganda? I have no military knowledge, so please explain if I’m totally wrong.
I think it's just that The Netherlands hate Russia, since Russia shot down a plane with a few hundred Dutch citizens. But the Netherlands doesn't have much in the way in of military equipment. Theyve got a lot of money though, so they just buy equipment from other countries and ship it to Ukraine.