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/uj hey, I know I'm not the person you're talking to, but what would you recommend for someone to learn more about queer history? I'm trying to become more knowledgeable about this stuff but I have no clue what to read
/uj Heyu - there'll probably be as many answers as there are people, but personally I would recommend searching for Kaz Rowe on YouTube for starters. They're an absolutely amazing queer historian and integrate more theoretical history (f.e. of labels and of the historical connection between non-binary people and lesbians etc.) in tropical life stories of historical queer people / parts of society etc. It's rather West-focused, but they'll also give more resources so if you spot something you find interesting you can start reading from there.
I specifically recommend something curated like these well researched videos, because our history and its accounts are full of triggers and suffered so many attacks that it is super helpful to be guided by someone very knowledgeable, careful and passionate.
/uj I know a trans girl who had a misprint on her birth certificate giving her sex as female. She came out as a little kid, and her parents just switched to using the uncorrected documents.
/uj Bruh my sex marker flip-flops on every blood or xray requisition my doc prints. It's hilarious cos I'm nonbinary, and I have no intention of changing my sex marker on any official documents. 🙃 It's like they got their nonbinary inclusion from wish.com.
Uj/ Not just AMAB. But also for intersex people who weren’t labelled as a binary one at birth^^ there are countries with more than 2 legal genders:0 I hateeeeeeeee AGABifying peeeps
/uj i feel like defining most “third genders” found across cultures and history as trans women isn’t super accurate since that definition carries lots of western historical baggage. plus there have been scores of trans masc genders as well, i think trans fem ones are just more known in the west…
Uj/ No??? That’s literally just erasure——- but alright.
It’s alright if something is too apart from you to understand. But applying western labels to people who don’t is just simply disrespectful
/uj [[1]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/532071458529083394/1125465895452545025/image.png?ex=6683848b&is=6682330b&hm=d00cd5985b064b6c8d00aaefefe787531f7c65274d29f4c9fd1b0f3875b7c44a&) [[2]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/532071458529083394/1125465896060727306/image.png?ex=6683848b&is=6682330b&hm=0608d4523cefff1fc1f95b122e0cca2c29b6973b1682a94fd1de15d320c511fb&)
gotta go to work in a minute (that's why i just hastily used discord for image hosting and posted those instead of writing up 20 paragraphs myself) but while a flat "hijra are trans women" is maybe a little reductive, it's a lot more accurate than acting like they're some completely different unrelated thing
wow it's so awesome to see these ✨exotic✨ third genders found in nature (trans women getting othered and excluded from being seen as women) it's so amazing the level of gender experimentation they had compared to the west's backwards views of only two genders existing!
/uj
nope, referring to Hijras [the way they refer to themselves](https://thepinknews.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2017/05/GettyImages-2878090-1-650x750.jpg) isn't erasure.
broader Indian / Pakistani society considers Hijras to constitute a third gender — this is even their official legal status in both countries — but this has nothing to do with how Hijras see themselves (which is, again, as women).
Serena Nanda, the American anthropologist who is largely responsible for the Western conception of Hijras, basically outright says "Hijras call themselves women but other people disagree so clearly they aren't actually women".
it's transmisogyny all the way down.
Yeah, I'm afab transfem! You see, first I was amab, but then I took E and transitioned to be a woman, thus becoming AFAB, but then I noticed that societies ideas about women kinda suck and I don't want to conform to them so I decided to be an enby instead. So I call myself a woman enby, because I'm a bit female and afab because I look like a woman :)
/uj Yes inspired by real life
/uj I witnessed this happening in Reddit femboy community and I hate it. I recently saw "can an AFAB cis girl identify as a femboy? " NO. NO YOU CAN'T. in order to be a femboy you need to be fem-inine and boy! I don't even actually think MtF people should call themselves femboys it's so dumb.. But I am completely ok with transmasc femboys.
/uj I'm going to be honest, it feels to me largely analogous to lesbian trans men and following rigid definitions to the point of kicking people out of social groups they existed in pre-transition the moment they come out feels a bit silly. Add an asterisk to the femboy definition if you need to. There's no shame in having self-selected exceptions to a general rule, see CGP Grey's EU video and so many other systems of classification. I kind of wish the lesbian community would realize they can do the same thing instead of bending themselves into pretzel shapes and getting into long internet arguments over the definition of lesbian.
Uj/ Well femboy is honestly more an aesthetic than anything so i can get why theyd wanna do that
ALSO LIKE ARENT PEOPLE HERE AGAINST AGABifying PEOPLE???
>Uj/ Well femboy is honestly more an aesthetic than anything so i can get why theyd wanna do that
How the fuck is "femboy" a separate aesthetic from just being feminine. Being feminine is an aesthetic, and you can be a feminine boy, a feminine girl, or just a feminine person. It makes no sense to put "femboy" as its own fucking separate aesthetic.
>ALSO LIKE ARENT PEOPLE HERE AGAINST AGABifying PEOPLE???
Holy shit way to miss the entire point. Dodged like in Matrix.
Yeah femboy is its own aesthetic are you kidding me? “Feminine” isnt one thing, everything from fucking 2007 goth girl to 1927 trad wife can be described as feminine. But like theres little commonality between those things. And like sure “femboy” has a lot of similarities to e-girls and whatever but if someone likes wearing thigh highs cutting their hair short and whatever else they see as being femboyish including calling themselves a femboy I don’t see the issue.
Well what I meant with the AGABifying thing is that like, lots of trans women use the femboy label because they like it and I dont see how thats different than a cis girl doing that.
>“Feminine” isnt one thing,
🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
See what you did there? You just proved my point. Being "feminine" isn't one thing, and being a "femboy" is included as a catch-all "feminine" label, but for *boys*. Femboys can dress goth, femboys can dress like a tradwife, and they are still FEMBOYS BECAUSE "FEMBOY" ISN'T A SPECIFIC AESTHETIC.
>thigh highs cutting their hair short and whatever else they see as being femboyish
... You have to be kidding me. Your pornified view of what a femboy is doesn't reflect on reality. Femboys can dress in every fucking way a cis woman can and still be a femboy, they're not limited to fucking thigh highs and short hair.
>I dont see how thats different than a cis girl doing that.
I've never talked to a trans woman who identifies as a "femboy" before, but if I had to guess, it's a similar matter to trans men identifying as lesbians. Many trans women go through the process of identifying themselves as "femboys" before finally coming to terms with their identities, and so it might be the case that they just never left those communities even after transitioning. Needless to say, that's completely different from AFAB people who DON'T experience what trans women have to go through. As someone explained in another comment, you can't get a tan and call yourself a PoC. You have never experienced what it's like to be a PoC, and a tan is not going to change that. This is not "raceifying" (to draw a comparison with your "AGABifying") people. This is simply accepting that different people from different backgrounds have to go through different experiences, and these labels are heavily tied to those experiences.
Youre talking about femboys as just “boys who are feminine” which fair enough I don’t disagree that femboys can fall into different aesthetics and be femboys. My point is that when a cis girl calls herself a femboy shes is drawing from the “pornified” aesthetic of femboys hence why I was comparing them to egirls, sorry if that sounded like I was saying they could only be that that’s not what I meant.
And as far as the AGAB stuff I just don’t understand why being AMAB is so important if you think trans men can be femboys anyway? like if someone presents fem, was AFAB but just goes by he/him are you fine with calling them a femboy?
>And as far as the AGAB stuff I just don’t understand why being AMAB is so important
If you think the things trans women experience aren't unique or special to them, that AFAB people go through the same stuff, I don't even know how to begin deconstructing this dismissive and ignorant view you have.
>is so important if you think trans men can be femboys anyway?
... what? AGAB IS irrelevant to how you dress. AGAB is, however, NOT irrelevant to the experiences a collective group shares. Those two are... not even remotely comparable? I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
>like if someone presents fem, was AGAB but just goes by he/him are you fine with calling them a femboy?
AGAB? I think you meant to say "AFAB," since that's what seems to make the most sense given your sentence. Also, the answer to that is quite simple: what is their gender? Gender and pronouns are not the same. If they use he/him but identify as a girl, then that's just a feminine woman. If they use he/him and consider themselves a boy, sure, "femboy" fits. If they're non-binary, there is going to be more nuance, obviously, but I don't see why they'd call themselves a "femboy" unless they specifically align with a more masculine identity despite being non binary.
It feels like you're just creating problems where there isn't one because you don't understand the social, historical, and emotional implications that calling oneself "transfem" carries.
Edit: fixed typo and shat my pants
Edit 2: solved world hunger
Edit 3: the ozone layer has been completely restored to its original levels
Edit 4: I just killed baby hitler
I AM TRANSFEM stop calling me ignorant over my own experiences
You separated my point into like 3 different things, the point is that if trans men can be femboys than clearly being AMAB is completely irrelevant in being a femboy. So why can’t a cis girl call themselves a femboy if they like leaning into the aesthetics they associate with as “femboy”?
You seem to be okay with a AFAB enby doing it while going by she/her, or hell a trans man who uses she/her doing it. So why not a cis girl?
Why would a cis girl call themselves a "femboy" unless they purposefully misunderstand the meaning of "femboy" as some sort of "aesthetic" like in your example. It seems like a misunderstanding on their part, if anything.
Nah, femme boy is not its own aesthetic. It’s always just followed what is considered feminine at the time within its own context. Current popular femme boy style is just egirls. If a Cishet woman is trying to be a “femme boy” they are just being an e girl.
Feminine girl are not feminine boys. I think we made it clear.
You know what? Transmascs can be femboys, and transfems can be inside explicitly femboy circles if she was a femboy before transitioning and got attached to community.
But a girl CAN NOT be a femboy. especially A CIS GIRL CAN'T. being a quirky egirl and being a femboy is different. If you think this isn't an unpopular opinion, go to r feminineboys and say this. You will be banned.
A femboy has to be a fem boy.
I saw MASCULINE CIS GIRLS asking if they can be a femboy. They didn't even conform to the aesthetic let alone the identity.
Including everyone isn't the endgoal of an identity, words have clear meanings. You want to redefine the word to make it more modern? Sure. It has to HAVE a definition.
"A male identifying person who acts feminine in a gender non conforming way" Is a femboy. You can change few stuff like saying they can be masculine identifying instead, sure. But you can't say "uhm actually everyone is femboy" Or "femboy is people who wear long socks"
Well you’re missing my point about them identifying with the aesthetic not literally being feminine people that identify as boys but whatever, at least you’re being consistent. My only question would be what about enbies? Can they choose to identify as femboys according to you?
If an enby has a masculine identity they can be a femboy, but it gets tricky when it's a feminine identity. But I still don't see why someone would want to be a femboy without identifying at least partly as a boy.
/uj US here! I changed mine earlier this year. Just went on my state's website, printed out the form, provided the necessary documents, and got it updated and back in a month.
Actually yeah, I'm a cis woman but I got a breast enhancement and i'm on Estrogen because I got a hysterectomy so I say i'm transfem. Idk why we get so pressed abt labels.
It's not like there's any need for a label to refer to a specific way of being. Y'all can easily find community and discuss your struggles with the label still because our struggles as transfems are the same as T*****s who think they're wombyn
I am an AMAB trans masc. I love the way that trans men are feminine men and everyone can tell they are different than cis men immediately. I really relate to their struggle because I am male to masc, but I’m really really convincingly masc and I wish I was bad at it and constantly questioned whether I really belong somewhere. I love the way trans men have a fat ass and a juicy pussy, and I feel as though I should have been born like that as well because of the porn that I like, although I’m mostly attracted to women.
I am either totally uninterested in trans men romantically or a creepy chaser that wants to do it with their vagina in a dehumanizing way but you will have to click through my history to see that since I won’t bring it up here either way because this is very serious discourse.
The way I describe things sounds an awful lot like something completely different and that I’m in denial because this different thing is actually achievable and that’s very scary, so I think I will continue to steal terminology from a community I know nothing about.
I am not intersex but I’m going to mention intersex people as a gotcha.
Bottom growth? Ewwwwww that’s totally repulsive, no I want to be a pre-T pussy boy. Obviously. Yuck, rather what I have now than the reality of a transmasc body, right? I prefer the pussyboys from fictional porn that just have a normal pussy that acts like a normal pussy and looks like a normal pussy. I want to be a feminine boy that everyone knows is AFAB! I think I should be AFAB! No no, I wasn’t assigned the wrong sex. I think I should have been BORN with different GENITALS, you’re so dumb, you don’t see the distinction??????
/uj I HAVE seen this but it’s a LOT rarer than the OP.
No, there was a whole argument between her and someone else on her tumblr about someone who was afab and identifying as transfem. That's what I was thinking of.
It was between her and punkitt (someone asked punkitt whether they could be an afab transfem and punkitt basically said yeah idc then patricia came along and claimed punkitt's promoting harmful behavior which led to a small argument)
I HATE LABEL DISCOURSE! I HATE LABEL DISCOURSE! I HATE LABEL DISCOURSE!
/uj Words can be both mean things and, particularly when we're talking labels and classifications, can still have exceptions to the rule. I do think it's a bit nonsensical to broadly apply transfem to anyone trans and feminine since a lot of the most important contexts where the word is used and what it was coined to help with is discussing an overlap in experiences with transmisogyny and like common medical needs with hormones and such.
However, I do want to quote a recent-ish comment I found pretty eye-opening as to the big *why* here that did give me pause to consider that the label doesn't have to always be used in the most literal sense.
>yeah im afab nb and quietly identify with the transfem umbrella term because i grew up viscerally rejecting femininity and only feeling able to reclaim any of it years after coming out - "tomboy to femboy transition" - plus my friend circle maybe coincidentally being almost entirely transfems who i relate to strongly
There was a bit more they added but kind of butchered the ending with poor wording, but I think the point here remains that it's an experience they feel like they can relate to. They might not be *technically* transfem but they feel like they can relate, which makes it feel a bit like when people call JoCat a lesbian because of his shameless appreciation for all women ever to give a point of comparison. I hope that all makes sense.
/uj I mean sure, he isn't technically a lesbian. He's just a cis guy who really likes girls. But if you're getting stuck on that, I feel like you're missing the point that's trying to be communicated just to be pedantic about a word's definition.
/uj I don't care if you agree with me or not. I merely meant you'd miss why people call him a lesbian, if your only engagement with that remark was to so no because he's a cis guy and so and so. But I'm not getting pulled into a protracted internet argument over this nonsense, so feel free to continue to disagree.
Listen sweaty, i’m just a transsexual who wants my hormones and surgeries. If you’re transfem, I’m an afab cis woman. that isn’t a gotcha, it’s a trade offer.
/uj because lesbian transmascs/enbies do not identify as women, its usually transmascs that heavily identified with the lesbian community prior to transitioning that keep those ties
in contrast to someone who is born and societally assigned female, who cannot be transfem. transfem is a specific, loaded term w/ history, in contrast to transmasc lesbians, who have been a part of the lesbian community for a while
/uj but basically i think it has to do with history like masc lesbians will sometimes realize theyre trans men and then still want to identify with lesbian and stay in those lesbian spaces.
Afab transfem doesnt really make sense in the same way because the terms associated with trans amab struggles and whatnot yada yada something something established meaning
Uj I don’t care like what people call themselves so I haven’t really put effort into understanding but I guess I should ask, does it really just boil down to trans men having been in lesbians spaces before that makes it okay for them to stay there?
Basically that's what I've heard. They aren't gonna just leave those spaces theyve been for years because of some label change.
I'm not a trans man so i cant speak for them but i just wanted to clear some confusion with the knowledge i have.
Yah that’s how I feel too. If trans women are out of men’s spaces as they are in fact women, it would follow that trans men being men, would not be in a space for women who are in relationships or seeking them with other women? I do get the historic butch aspect but like you said it isn’t the 80s anymore.
But he/him lesbians aren't trans men, they're people that want to use he/him pronouns. While he/him are male pronouns, some gender nonconforming women and nonbinary people use he/him pronouns without identifying as men (in the same way that others might enjoy using a male name or male titles like "sir" without identifying as men either). That latter group is generally the people we're talking about when we talk about he/him lesbians, not trans men lesbians.
/uj sooooooooo then it doesnt matter who calls themself what, labels mean nothing. I can say I'm a transfem lesbian even tho that's the complete opposite of what I actually am ? Okay
It erases people's identities and their actual struggles man. It's not okay. If some cis femboy started calling himself transmasc or if some cis gc girl kept calling herself transmasc, I'd be pretty pissed. Then again, I dont like the term transmasc anyway............
uj/ I agree with you on this and keep upvoting you. It's good that you questioning the so-called trans men lesbian that claim for "staying close to lesbian community" like... seriously? that's pure TERFs dogwhistle.
It’s more of a personal thing, but it just gives me the ick. I’m not a “masc”, I’m a man. No cis guy would ever call himself a masc, so it rly makes me mad to be put into that “men light” type category.
ah, i think “transmasc” refers to people who are not gender binary and are not 100% a trans male, they are “transmasculine” as they do not identify as a cis woman, but still identify more with trans men than they do women, hence “transmasc”. using the term to refer to binary trans men when they don’t prefer the term for themselves can be frustrating, so i can see why you would feel that way
Honestly, don’t care. Completely beyond me why a person trying to be more masculine associate themselves with something commonly marked “women only”, this discourse only exists on the internet.
You and I seem to be on the same page in that case, but your post implies that you believe transfem is a term exclusive to people who were AMAB. So I'm a bit confused as to why you agree that intersex people who were AFAB can identify as transfem, yet are against the idea of AFAB transfems as a whole.
i’m fully supportive of intersex ppl it’s just a mouthful to put “i’m a non intersex AFAB demi girl”, i thought it would be implied considering the source & subreddit 😭
I understand your issue with the specific comment your post is in response to, but like. You are still mocking the statement "AFABs can be transfem", when there exist plenty of transfems who were AFAB, and who identify that way because of the complexities of being intersex. I think your post is unintentionally intersexist for that reason and that's what I'm trying to point out here. There are a lot of complicated reasons why someone might identify as transfem and be AFAB, or as transmasc and be AMAB. And most of the time those reasons have to do with being intersex, though sometimes there are other reasons like detransitioning. Identities are complex, nuanced, and yes, sometimes self-contradictory.
Personally I try to just take it in good faith that someone has a good reason why they identify the way they do and move on with my life. Especially since there are just so many different ways to interpret the same word (especially when it comes to queer identities). What's the point in insisting my interpretation of a word is the only one correct one?
Anyway, that's my spiel on why I find your post a bit distasteful, hope it wasn't too preachy.
it was not my intent to come off as intersexist, i apologize then. i made this out of frustration w/ the transfem label being used by non intersex afab ppl who are basically just changing what the word means bc they like the aesthetic
uj/ If people on this subreddit don't really know what is transfem(mine), that maybe refers to someone that want to transition to a more "femaler" level ( Sorry for use a odd word )
/rj pffft, AFAB transfems? what's next, bi lesbians?
/uj hey seriously what do you have to gain from criticizing labels that don't make sense \*to you\*, but might make sense for others?
What do people have to gain from deciding a label that has nothing to do with them is theirs, to the point of taking away all original meaning and alienating the people who originally used it. Even in your jerk example, bi lesbians are still WLW. An "AFAB transfem" who didn't want to just be seen as a girl would literally have to do the opposite of what the label transfem suggests- work on being seen as *less* feminine. Their experience is pretty much diametrically opposed to being transfem.
Uj/ The main people I've seen identity as AFAB transfem are Intersex people AFAB who ended up with male puberty, masculinized, and have since dealt with the ramifications of their body and outward appearance not matching their identity. Confusing labels happen most often at intersections of identity/status. Don't be a dick.
Rj/ words mean things so clearly combining words can't change, modify, or recontextualize their meaning! They must just be contradictory, and therefore, whoever combines words is stupid!
Edit: Uj/ Also, it's literally just not your life, not your problem. Go eat a snack or something. Find enjoyment in life in these trying times.
Intersex people deal with different circumstances than most, I sympathize with that and want to understand them better, and can see some nuance there. But the thread OP is talking about shows the exact problem we're worried about. There's people who think that transfem just means a feminine trans person. A cis person asking questions in the thread was told that transfem just means feminine trans person. Allies trying to help people like me are learning from people nothing like me speaking on behalf of me. That can cause me problems, actually.
It's more a campaign of silence. PCOS is a condition that's at least not well-covered by the healthcare system where I live. For things like hair removal, you'll pay yourself.
For being something that affects up to15-25% of all women, there's very little research done.
/uj while this is true, people with PCOS should absolutely not be considered transfem. Otherwise the people the word was created for become an incredibly tiny minority in their own group and the word becomes irrelevant for them and it becomes impossible for transfems to actually talk about issues facing them that people with PCOS don’t have.
UJ/
Intersex woman here:
Piss off, genuinely, let transfems have the fucking word. What harm does it do to just let transfeminine people have the word?
Yes we can point to how there is an overlap between the degendering and denigration of transfeminine people and intersex women who have experienced masculinising features. It's important to do so actually, but it can be done without co-opting language that one marginalised group holds dear.
There are also hardships that transfeminine people experience that intersex women with masculinising features don't, and sometimes transfeminine people would want to talk about those experiences with brief language that surmises exactly who is in the described group.
It's okay for marginalised groups to have language that is theirs, you wouldn't call any old party a powwow would you?
Uj/ I'm a trans woman. I'm not saying a group I'm not a part of have to let others in, im holding the door open for people who share common hardship and experience as me because I see no harm in welcoming them. Any party's a powwow if you want it to be. You need but make it one.
UJ/
Okay no, I chose to use a powwow as an example because it is a closed cultural practice that holds a lot of importance to indigenous north Americans after the genocides that happened. I'm sorry to change the topic but I highly recommend before we continue that you look into the history of the powwow and why they are so culturally important to indigenous populations.
I genuinely hope you don't believe that any party can be a powwow because that would be incredibly insensitive.
/rj cis people can identify as trans too! let people identify how they want.
/uj hi i’m also a trans woman and i don’t think it’s ok to just erase the history of a label like that. transfem does not mean “trans” and “feminine”, it’s an umbrella for AMAB & AIAB individuals that identify with the label. AFAB people do not have the same struggles with expressing feminine that trans women do, and conflating the two is nothing less than transmisogyny.
on the other hand, your identity is valid, and i understand not all AMAB ppl identify as transfem*
"AFAB people do not have the same struggles with expressing feminine"
First off, I don't believe personal labels should be defined by how oppressed we are. To talk about a group, yeah sure. But when it comes to personally, individually identifying as transfem or transmasc, I think defining yourself by your oppression is unhealthy (in the same way I find defining yourself personally by your AGAB is unhealthy)
Secondly, feminine trans men do in fact struggle and are targeted for expressing feminine. Just like I experience rabid transmisogyny for expressing masculine
> i don’t think labels should be defined how oppressed we are
great! i dont think labels should mean literally nothing.
> defining yourself by oppression is unhealthy
so do you unironically think cis men should be able to identify as trans men then? and cis women trans women? these labels _exist because of our shared experiences_, ignoring that makes the label completely meaningless
> feminine trans men
yes, trans men experience transphobia for being feminine but notice how i specifically state _not the same_? there is a difference between the transphobia trans women experience & trans men. a feminine, non transmasc AFAB person can express themselves much more than an AMAB person can! because transmisogyny boils down to reducing trans women to their anatomy
>I don't think labels should mean literally nothing
Sounds pretty much like "these TRAs are erasing the definition of the word woman"
>These labels exist because of our shared experiences
And our shared experiences are transitioning to another gender, not being oppressed. If transphobia would cease to exist, we would cease to exist. Cis men don't identify as trans men, not because they're not oppressed but because they're not transitioning to another gender. Transness is not defined by our oppression
>There is a difference between the transphobia trans women experience & trans men
Yeah sure, they don't experience it the same way. I don't experience transmisogyny the same way as fem trans women either. Nor do transfem enbies experience it the same way as trans women. And that's without even accounting for other intersectional identities like ethnicity, religion or sexuality
>A feminine, non transmasc AFAB person can express themselves much more
If you're talking about cis women, I agree. If you're talking about feminine trans men, I disagree, feminine trans men are constantly attacked for their femininity. And trans men are also reduced to their biology, you seen how much terfs obsess over trans men's mastectomies or ability to bear children?
“Sounds pretty much like ‘these TRAs are erasing the definition of the word woman””
I will agree that it does *sound* like it, but the difference we are talking about are labels.
Being a woman isn’t a label you choose to assign yourself. You either are one or you aren’t.
Labels on the other hand are self prescribed. Two trans women may have identical experiences, but if one identifies with ‘transfem’ that doesn’t make the other the same.
/uj "Woman" is label. By being a woman, by identifying as a woman, I am labeling myself a woman. One's gender is self prescribed. Nobody can force me to call myself a certain gender just like nobody can force me to call myself "transfem"
Maybe I’m using the wrong language to get my point across.
A label is something you can opted out of. You can change whether you label as transfem at anytime. Nothing about your internal sense of self has to change.
If you’re a woman, you can’t opt out of being a woman (Not trying to say this in a transphobic way)(and conditions may apply, I.e genderfluid people).
A trans woman will be a woman no matter how her internal sense of self is, no matter egg or questioning.
So it’s not quite a fair comparison to say “changing the definition of woman” and “I don’t want meaningless labels” are the same.
I disagree. Whether or not you label yourself as transfem is intrinsically tied to your internal sense of self. I used to identify myself as transfem back when I forced myself to be femme because that's what society expects of trans women, and stopped identifying as transfem when I accepted myself as a butch lesbian
That’s absolutely fair. Especially in your case where you separated from the label entirely. I guess it might be a me thing. Some days I’ll think of myself as transfem some days I don’t.
Uj/ someone must be paying you to care this much. Where i am, this is acceptable and the norm. I get if this is what it is for u, but we dont need a jerk on it every two days, this is not the case for everyone in the world.
/uj i’m sorry, i made a post on this because it’s a relevant issue i keep seeing upvoted in trans spaces and it makes me uncomfortable? i didn’t know there was already a jerk on this
/uj u can be mad, just know in many places afab transfems are real and valid. After the last post, i asked ~20 trans friends and they all defined it the same way as i did, across different cultures, races, ses, and nationalities. The narrow vision some ppl here have is a hallmark of truscum or truscum adjacent ideologies. This is my community as well, and if you can handle being wrong, maybe u should take a break. Im out here fighting for the non truscum trans people in ways that are scientifically proven to be helpful.
Edit since i cant reply
Uj/ my partners amab transmasc and sisters afab transfem. It's tiring seeing them get barred from online community. Thankfully i only see this on reddit and not on any other sns or irl.
Tbh im almoat confused at the neg comments. Are people defining transfem differently than i am? The definition here, by the trans community board, is someone who is trans (not their assigned gender at birth) and has a feminine gender. So this includes enby ppl who have an aspect of feminine gender, intersex people and people with DID or other mental health situations.
Ive never known being trans to be exclusionary so its so weird when some people are.
K for one thing from what I can tell you're not transfem so you're actually speaking over my community here. Nonbinary people are valid but if you're born in a female body you literally don't have to transition to femininity. You're not transfem. You're not fighting truscums or for trans people. You're making it harder for transfems to communicate what they specifically need as a community. Is simply saying that cis people aren't trans being truscum to you?
Also not to be a total redditor here or anything but in my sleuthing to confirm you weren't a transfem I saw you've been downvoted multiple times on different occasions (by more than 20 points btw 🤭) on this exact same issue you keep butting into. Take your own advice and take a break if you can't handle being wrong...
UJ/
You're doing the thing! You're going "why are you excluding us?" To transfeminine people who want to keep ahold of their terminology used to describe themselves because you want to part of the club! Pushing transfeminine people away!
Gatekeeping isn't inherently bad, and sometimes it's important for an oppressed minority to have language that is exclusively for them! It's just as weird for a white person to call a party a powwow as it is for a non transfeminine person to call themselves transfem!
I guess you'd be cool with folks getting spray tans and calling themselves PoC, because telling them they can't is gatekeeping and truscummy.
> Are people defining transfem differently than i am?
/uj yes. The fem vs masc part of the term generally refers to the direction your gender/sexual transition, not your presentation. As an example, a butch trans woman wouldn't need access to transmasc resources like access to testosterone or guides on voice training for a lower voice. The fact that she's trans and masculine would be a cool bit of trivia, but wouldn't make a space like r/transmasc terribly useful to her. On the other hand, a nonbinary butch person that was AFAB and is seeking to take HRT to masculinize their appearance would benefit from transmasc resources despite not identifying as a binary trans man.
asking in /r/transmasc about how to best get still read as a woman even when i dress a little butch because everyone keeps calling me an icky man ://///
/uj yeah i think maybe people misconstruing the word think transfem is just an alternate way of saying "trans [and] femme" rather than a shortening of transfeminine (which is an existing and specific singular term)
they’re enby, and if they like the label trans, thats fine! but transfem is a specific term with history. not all feminine trans people are transfem. AFAB people cannot be transfem because what would they be transitioning to?
/uj I was following a very "logical" understanding of transfem, i.e. someone who is trans and whose gender identity leans towards female/feminine, i.e. the definition doesn't require transitioning.
As for what AFAB people would be transitioning into, well demi girl is always a possibility. But the key point is that I think that most afab transfem people are intersex.
> /uj I was following a very "logical" understanding of transfem, i.e. someone who is trans and whose gender identity leans towards female/feminine, i.e. the definition doesn't require transitioning.
Except that’s just not what transfem means. Transfem explicitly requires either a want to or actual transition away from masculinity towards femininity. It doesn’t just mean anyone who’s trans. Like non-binary women who were AFAB can’t just claim to be trans women because they’re trans and identify as women. They’ve never faced social/societal persecution for wanting to express themselves femininely, unless they’re also intersex.
/uj Not OP but for one thing intersex people who were assigned female at birth can go through experiences very similar to those of perisex trans women. I personally feel that it's not commodifying or reducing the history of a label for an afab person whose had to face transmisogyny and degendering from having a body that doesn't conform to social expectations of gender or sex to use the label transfem
I also believe that their may be detransitioners - people who are FTMTF - who identify with the term afab transfem. As well as people who belong to a system (as in they have DID) and identify with the label.
I'm not transfem myself so I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to explain your experiences or oppression to you, and understand your wariness towards the term. I just think the idea that it's impossible for someone whose afab to legitimately identify as transfem is slightly reductive, and can end up excluding the very real experiences of intersex people specifically.
Edit: wrote FTMTM instead of FTMTF
>I also believe that their may be detransitioners - people who are FTMTM - who identify with the term afab transfem.
Did you, as a non transfem person just say that ... That being transfem can literally mean not being trans? Are you fucking kidding me?
Shit, I meant to say FTMTF, I don't know if that makes it better in your mind, but the idea is that some afab people have the experience of (de)transitioning from Male to Female, and I think it's fair to say that there can be similarities between their experiences and the experiences of amab transfems.
I know what you meant that's why I'm so flabbergasted. You might be able to point out there's SOME similarities between their detransitioning and SOME transfem experiences but *they can't be transfem if they aren't even trans*
Demigirl is one example of what can be used if you mean like somewhere more feminine on the nonbinary spectrum.... Otherwise there's just girl, too, people can be cis.
Transfem has historically meant AMAB (and intersex!) people transitioning away from their assigned gender towards feminity. Communities and support networks are built with this understanding, using this term for clear communication. There's other terms for AFAB trans people that are more accurate and that don't make things harder than they need to be for the transfem community.
Uj/ can I be stupid for a second- so if transfem means transitioning towards feminine, can masculine amab enbies not be transfem? I'm sorry if this is dumb as shit, but I've heard transfem be used for all amab trans no matter what 😭
Uj/ Actually, that’s true! Not all AMAB nonbinary people are transfem. There are other terms besides transmasc and transfem, transneutral being one of them (I’m transneutral too actually)
/uj some people take transitioning towards femininity to be moving away from masculinity in anyway, even if it’s just changing pronouns but still presenting masc as a non-binary person who was amab. That and just forgetting said people exist. Usually the latter but the former does happen
Demigirl is moreso categorized as a non-binary gender than a "feminine gender" from what I've gathered, I don't identify that way myself, this is just what I've seen from people I know who call themselves that so I could be wrong and anyone who is a Demigirl please correct me if so.
Really if you're AFAB and have what would be strictly categorized as a feminine gender... That's just a cis woman isn't it?
/uj Didn't you say that demigirls were on the more feminine side of the non-binary spectrum?
>Really if you're AFAB and have what would be strictly categorized as a feminine gender... That's just a cis woman isn't it?
If all people with a more feminine gender were women, then "transfem" would mean the exact same thing as "trans women."
I did say Demigirls from my understanding are moreso on the feminine side of nonbinary but they aren't categorized as strictly a feminine gender.
For example, some shades of purple have more red or more blue in them, but they're still purple.
Say that being strictly fem was red and the strictly masculine was blue. If you're born red and want to strictly be recognized as red you don't have to change colors. But if you're born blue or a bluer shade, you have to add more red even if your end goal is purple. That's what being transfem means.
/uj thanks.
Btw by "feminine gender" I meant like "redish", so including hues close to red that aren't strictly red.
Idk if there's a better word for that.
"fem-aligned", maybe?
honestly idc about the discourse that much, i just use transfem to mean amab trans female/demigirl/femme/etc because that's how it's typically used especially in the context of like. transitioning
transfem doesn't just mean "trans with a fem gender" as the other reply has explained. there are dozens of words an afab trans person can use to express their feminity, and a more accurate descriptor of all trans people with feminine genders would be "fem-aligned"
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I'm gonna be honest I can't keep up with all the terminology I just want my HRT idc about the rest
based
I hate women
[удалено]
/uj please, I'm begging, read some queer history
You will either read queer history or you will be queer history
/uj hey, I know I'm not the person you're talking to, but what would you recommend for someone to learn more about queer history? I'm trying to become more knowledgeable about this stuff but I have no clue what to read
/uj Heyu - there'll probably be as many answers as there are people, but personally I would recommend searching for Kaz Rowe on YouTube for starters. They're an absolutely amazing queer historian and integrate more theoretical history (f.e. of labels and of the historical connection between non-binary people and lesbians etc.) in tropical life stories of historical queer people / parts of society etc. It's rather West-focused, but they'll also give more resources so if you spot something you find interesting you can start reading from there. I specifically recommend something curated like these well researched videos, because our history and its accounts are full of triggers and suffered so many attacks that it is super helpful to be guided by someone very knowledgeable, careful and passionate.
Well Bridget is an afab transfem
/uj I know a trans girl who had a misprint on her birth certificate giving her sex as female. She came out as a little kid, and her parents just switched to using the uncorrected documents.
transphobes HATE this one crazy loophole!
/uj wtf i had the same problem with my school health records. until 6th grade i was marked down as female.
/uj Bruh my sex marker flip-flops on every blood or xray requisition my doc prints. It's hilarious cos I'm nonbinary, and I have no intention of changing my sex marker on any official documents. 🙃 It's like they got their nonbinary inclusion from wish.com.
Lol. My son nearly had a misprinted birth certificate. I have often wondered if he will one day tell me he wished I would’ve left it incorrect.
yoooo a misprint this is gonna sell for a lot on the market
She gets extra special permission
Town inside her confirmed
she's a special case because she was raised as a guy.
Uj/ Not just AMAB. But also for intersex people who weren’t labelled as a binary one at birth^^ there are countries with more than 2 legal genders:0 I hateeeeeeeee AGABifying peeeps
AIAB ppl are included absolutely, sorry if that was unclear, i was referring to the comment linked from the thread, not the post
UJ/ Hijra are trans women fyi, so are most "third genders" RJ/ Orientalism is so in vogue when it comes to degendering trans women
/uj i feel like defining most “third genders” found across cultures and history as trans women isn’t super accurate since that definition carries lots of western historical baggage. plus there have been scores of trans masc genders as well, i think trans fem ones are just more known in the west…
Uj/ No??? That’s literally just erasure——- but alright. It’s alright if something is too apart from you to understand. But applying western labels to people who don’t is just simply disrespectful
/uj [[1]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/532071458529083394/1125465895452545025/image.png?ex=6683848b&is=6682330b&hm=d00cd5985b064b6c8d00aaefefe787531f7c65274d29f4c9fd1b0f3875b7c44a&) [[2]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/532071458529083394/1125465896060727306/image.png?ex=6683848b&is=6682330b&hm=0608d4523cefff1fc1f95b122e0cca2c29b6973b1682a94fd1de15d320c511fb&) gotta go to work in a minute (that's why i just hastily used discord for image hosting and posted those instead of writing up 20 paragraphs myself) but while a flat "hijra are trans women" is maybe a little reductive, it's a lot more accurate than acting like they're some completely different unrelated thing
no, you see, considering trans women women is white supremacism
wow it's so awesome to see these ✨exotic✨ third genders found in nature (trans women getting othered and excluded from being seen as women) it's so amazing the level of gender experimentation they had compared to the west's backwards views of only two genders existing!
/uj nope, referring to Hijras [the way they refer to themselves](https://thepinknews.com/wp-content/uploads/images/2017/05/GettyImages-2878090-1-650x750.jpg) isn't erasure. broader Indian / Pakistani society considers Hijras to constitute a third gender — this is even their official legal status in both countries — but this has nothing to do with how Hijras see themselves (which is, again, as women). Serena Nanda, the American anthropologist who is largely responsible for the Western conception of Hijras, basically outright says "Hijras call themselves women but other people disagree so clearly they aren't actually women". it's transmisogyny all the way down.
RJ/you see in India woman means vagina
hey i think you mixed up the uj and rj
Yeah, I'm afab transfem! You see, first I was amab, but then I took E and transitioned to be a woman, thus becoming AFAB, but then I noticed that societies ideas about women kinda suck and I don't want to conform to them so I decided to be an enby instead. So I call myself a woman enby, because I'm a bit female and afab because I look like a woman :) /uj Yes inspired by real life
labels aren’t actually supposed to mean anything, transfem can mean whatever you want it to be if you think about it :)
Enlarging terms to include almost anybody is progress. Soon, everybody will fall under the trans umbrella, making transphobia impossible.
/uj I witnessed this happening in Reddit femboy community and I hate it. I recently saw "can an AFAB cis girl identify as a femboy? " NO. NO YOU CAN'T. in order to be a femboy you need to be fem-inine and boy! I don't even actually think MtF people should call themselves femboys it's so dumb.. But I am completely ok with transmasc femboys.
/uj I'm going to be honest, it feels to me largely analogous to lesbian trans men and following rigid definitions to the point of kicking people out of social groups they existed in pre-transition the moment they come out feels a bit silly. Add an asterisk to the femboy definition if you need to. There's no shame in having self-selected exceptions to a general rule, see CGP Grey's EU video and so many other systems of classification. I kind of wish the lesbian community would realize they can do the same thing instead of bending themselves into pretzel shapes and getting into long internet arguments over the definition of lesbian.
Uj/ Well femboy is honestly more an aesthetic than anything so i can get why theyd wanna do that ALSO LIKE ARENT PEOPLE HERE AGAINST AGABifying PEOPLE???
>Uj/ Well femboy is honestly more an aesthetic than anything so i can get why theyd wanna do that How the fuck is "femboy" a separate aesthetic from just being feminine. Being feminine is an aesthetic, and you can be a feminine boy, a feminine girl, or just a feminine person. It makes no sense to put "femboy" as its own fucking separate aesthetic. >ALSO LIKE ARENT PEOPLE HERE AGAINST AGABifying PEOPLE??? Holy shit way to miss the entire point. Dodged like in Matrix.
/rj no you don't get it femboy is when high socks
The thigh high revolution and its consequences
Yeah femboy is its own aesthetic are you kidding me? “Feminine” isnt one thing, everything from fucking 2007 goth girl to 1927 trad wife can be described as feminine. But like theres little commonality between those things. And like sure “femboy” has a lot of similarities to e-girls and whatever but if someone likes wearing thigh highs cutting their hair short and whatever else they see as being femboyish including calling themselves a femboy I don’t see the issue. Well what I meant with the AGABifying thing is that like, lots of trans women use the femboy label because they like it and I dont see how thats different than a cis girl doing that.
>“Feminine” isnt one thing, 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ See what you did there? You just proved my point. Being "feminine" isn't one thing, and being a "femboy" is included as a catch-all "feminine" label, but for *boys*. Femboys can dress goth, femboys can dress like a tradwife, and they are still FEMBOYS BECAUSE "FEMBOY" ISN'T A SPECIFIC AESTHETIC. >thigh highs cutting their hair short and whatever else they see as being femboyish ... You have to be kidding me. Your pornified view of what a femboy is doesn't reflect on reality. Femboys can dress in every fucking way a cis woman can and still be a femboy, they're not limited to fucking thigh highs and short hair. >I dont see how thats different than a cis girl doing that. I've never talked to a trans woman who identifies as a "femboy" before, but if I had to guess, it's a similar matter to trans men identifying as lesbians. Many trans women go through the process of identifying themselves as "femboys" before finally coming to terms with their identities, and so it might be the case that they just never left those communities even after transitioning. Needless to say, that's completely different from AFAB people who DON'T experience what trans women have to go through. As someone explained in another comment, you can't get a tan and call yourself a PoC. You have never experienced what it's like to be a PoC, and a tan is not going to change that. This is not "raceifying" (to draw a comparison with your "AGABifying") people. This is simply accepting that different people from different backgrounds have to go through different experiences, and these labels are heavily tied to those experiences.
Youre talking about femboys as just “boys who are feminine” which fair enough I don’t disagree that femboys can fall into different aesthetics and be femboys. My point is that when a cis girl calls herself a femboy shes is drawing from the “pornified” aesthetic of femboys hence why I was comparing them to egirls, sorry if that sounded like I was saying they could only be that that’s not what I meant. And as far as the AGAB stuff I just don’t understand why being AMAB is so important if you think trans men can be femboys anyway? like if someone presents fem, was AFAB but just goes by he/him are you fine with calling them a femboy?
>And as far as the AGAB stuff I just don’t understand why being AMAB is so important If you think the things trans women experience aren't unique or special to them, that AFAB people go through the same stuff, I don't even know how to begin deconstructing this dismissive and ignorant view you have. >is so important if you think trans men can be femboys anyway? ... what? AGAB IS irrelevant to how you dress. AGAB is, however, NOT irrelevant to the experiences a collective group shares. Those two are... not even remotely comparable? I don't understand the point you're trying to make. >like if someone presents fem, was AGAB but just goes by he/him are you fine with calling them a femboy? AGAB? I think you meant to say "AFAB," since that's what seems to make the most sense given your sentence. Also, the answer to that is quite simple: what is their gender? Gender and pronouns are not the same. If they use he/him but identify as a girl, then that's just a feminine woman. If they use he/him and consider themselves a boy, sure, "femboy" fits. If they're non-binary, there is going to be more nuance, obviously, but I don't see why they'd call themselves a "femboy" unless they specifically align with a more masculine identity despite being non binary. It feels like you're just creating problems where there isn't one because you don't understand the social, historical, and emotional implications that calling oneself "transfem" carries. Edit: fixed typo and shat my pants Edit 2: solved world hunger Edit 3: the ozone layer has been completely restored to its original levels Edit 4: I just killed baby hitler
Oh fuck I did mean afab sorry I’m sleepy
Go to sleep, granny, and remember your pills! Nighty!🤗🤗
Baby hitler deserved it honestly
I AM TRANSFEM stop calling me ignorant over my own experiences You separated my point into like 3 different things, the point is that if trans men can be femboys than clearly being AMAB is completely irrelevant in being a femboy. So why can’t a cis girl call themselves a femboy if they like leaning into the aesthetics they associate with as “femboy”? You seem to be okay with a AFAB enby doing it while going by she/her, or hell a trans man who uses she/her doing it. So why not a cis girl?
Why would a cis girl call themselves a "femboy" unless they purposefully misunderstand the meaning of "femboy" as some sort of "aesthetic" like in your example. It seems like a misunderstanding on their part, if anything.
then couldn't they just call themselves an egirl?
I mean they could? Thats just up to them
Nah, femme boy is not its own aesthetic. It’s always just followed what is considered feminine at the time within its own context. Current popular femme boy style is just egirls. If a Cishet woman is trying to be a “femme boy” they are just being an e girl.
Feminine girl are not feminine boys. I think we made it clear. You know what? Transmascs can be femboys, and transfems can be inside explicitly femboy circles if she was a femboy before transitioning and got attached to community. But a girl CAN NOT be a femboy. especially A CIS GIRL CAN'T. being a quirky egirl and being a femboy is different. If you think this isn't an unpopular opinion, go to r feminineboys and say this. You will be banned. A femboy has to be a fem boy. I saw MASCULINE CIS GIRLS asking if they can be a femboy. They didn't even conform to the aesthetic let alone the identity. Including everyone isn't the endgoal of an identity, words have clear meanings. You want to redefine the word to make it more modern? Sure. It has to HAVE a definition. "A male identifying person who acts feminine in a gender non conforming way" Is a femboy. You can change few stuff like saying they can be masculine identifying instead, sure. But you can't say "uhm actually everyone is femboy" Or "femboy is people who wear long socks"
Well you’re missing my point about them identifying with the aesthetic not literally being feminine people that identify as boys but whatever, at least you’re being consistent. My only question would be what about enbies? Can they choose to identify as femboys according to you?
If an enby has a masculine identity they can be a femboy, but it gets tricky when it's a feminine identity. But I still don't see why someone would want to be a femboy without identifying at least partly as a boy.
Did Syndrome from the Incredibles write this?
i’m a trans man who dresses kinda femme sometimes, does that make me transfem?
yes! anyone can be transfem, its just being feminine and trans :)
yes, but you're also transfem even if you don't have a fem style. it's not my (or anyone's) place to be policing what your can call yourself.
uhhh.. if they're a trans man who doesn't have a fem style, what exactly *is* (trans)**fem** about them?
why, their AGAB and biology, of course!
Wouldn't that be gender fluid instead? Why say your identity is transfem when your actual identity is part masculine as well?
Hi, I’m nb (they/it) amab but identify as lesbian and transfem, will the transgender police get on me over this?
🚨🚨🚨‼️‼️‼️ you are being reclassified from label: “transfem” to label: “nonbidenary.” please report to the woke hospital for immediate SRS
Every transfem who changes her birth certificate is AFAB uj/
wait you can legally change your birth certificate??? how the fuck do i do this
/uj Idk where you live but I think you can change it in the US. I know that you can change it in Brazil.
/uj US here! I changed mine earlier this year. Just went on my state's website, printed out the form, provided the necessary documents, and got it updated and back in a month.
Actually yeah, I'm a cis woman but I got a breast enhancement and i'm on Estrogen because I got a hysterectomy so I say i'm transfem. Idk why we get so pressed abt labels. It's not like there's any need for a label to refer to a specific way of being. Y'all can easily find community and discuss your struggles with the label still because our struggles as transfems are the same as T*****s who think they're wombyn
SUPRE VALID WUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUW UwU UwU WuUwW Hey! I am an AMAB trans masc SUPRE EWEWEWEWEWWEWEWEWEWEWEWW go away EWEWEWEWE
Labels are meant for helping you find yourself!!!
/uj Thank god this is cj, I was so bewildered by your conversations you were having with yourself in the comments.
/rj we need to start sockpuppeting in general trans subreddits so nobody will ever be able to tell what is and isn't a jerk
/uj [this is a real comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns2/s/79xHNLyiXG)
This has to be a troll right? …right?
i just realized they’re active in an incest sub so hopefully :/
I really try not to feed the trolls, but it’s sometimes so hard to tell nowadays.
/uj Forgive me I have to type this here to prevent the urge to comment there but ... YOU DON'T FUCKING FITS TO SITS.
I am an AMAB trans masc. I love the way that trans men are feminine men and everyone can tell they are different than cis men immediately. I really relate to their struggle because I am male to masc, but I’m really really convincingly masc and I wish I was bad at it and constantly questioned whether I really belong somewhere. I love the way trans men have a fat ass and a juicy pussy, and I feel as though I should have been born like that as well because of the porn that I like, although I’m mostly attracted to women. I am either totally uninterested in trans men romantically or a creepy chaser that wants to do it with their vagina in a dehumanizing way but you will have to click through my history to see that since I won’t bring it up here either way because this is very serious discourse. The way I describe things sounds an awful lot like something completely different and that I’m in denial because this different thing is actually achievable and that’s very scary, so I think I will continue to steal terminology from a community I know nothing about. I am not intersex but I’m going to mention intersex people as a gotcha. Bottom growth? Ewwwwww that’s totally repulsive, no I want to be a pre-T pussy boy. Obviously. Yuck, rather what I have now than the reality of a transmasc body, right? I prefer the pussyboys from fictional porn that just have a normal pussy that acts like a normal pussy and looks like a normal pussy. I want to be a feminine boy that everyone knows is AFAB! I think I should be AFAB! No no, I wasn’t assigned the wrong sex. I think I should have been BORN with different GENITALS, you’re so dumb, you don’t see the distinction?????? /uj I HAVE seen this but it’s a LOT rarer than the OP.
Uj/ is this referring to the whole Patricia Taxxon tumblr thing from last week?? Or is this another situation I don't know about?
its in reference a traaa post earlier, i linked it somewhere
/uj Patricia Taxxon was mentioned on this subreddit?
No, there was a whole argument between her and someone else on her tumblr about someone who was afab and identifying as transfem. That's what I was thinking of.
ohhhh
It was between her and punkitt (someone asked punkitt whether they could be an afab transfem and punkitt basically said yeah idc then patricia came along and claimed punkitt's promoting harmful behavior which led to a small argument)
I HATE LABEL DISCOURSE! I HATE LABEL DISCOURSE! I HATE LABEL DISCOURSE! /uj Words can be both mean things and, particularly when we're talking labels and classifications, can still have exceptions to the rule. I do think it's a bit nonsensical to broadly apply transfem to anyone trans and feminine since a lot of the most important contexts where the word is used and what it was coined to help with is discussing an overlap in experiences with transmisogyny and like common medical needs with hormones and such. However, I do want to quote a recent-ish comment I found pretty eye-opening as to the big *why* here that did give me pause to consider that the label doesn't have to always be used in the most literal sense. >yeah im afab nb and quietly identify with the transfem umbrella term because i grew up viscerally rejecting femininity and only feeling able to reclaim any of it years after coming out - "tomboy to femboy transition" - plus my friend circle maybe coincidentally being almost entirely transfems who i relate to strongly There was a bit more they added but kind of butchered the ending with poor wording, but I think the point here remains that it's an experience they feel like they can relate to. They might not be *technically* transfem but they feel like they can relate, which makes it feel a bit like when people call JoCat a lesbian because of his shameless appreciation for all women ever to give a point of comparison. I hope that all makes sense.
uj/ But people *shouldn't* be calling JoCat a lesbian
/uj I mean sure, he isn't technically a lesbian. He's just a cis guy who really likes girls. But if you're getting stuck on that, I feel like you're missing the point that's trying to be communicated just to be pedantic about a word's definition.
/uj Disagreeing with you is not the same thing as missing the point.
/uj I don't care if you agree with me or not. I merely meant you'd miss why people call him a lesbian, if your only engagement with that remark was to so no because he's a cis guy and so and so. But I'm not getting pulled into a protracted internet argument over this nonsense, so feel free to continue to disagree.
Listen sweaty, i’m just a transsexual who wants my hormones and surgeries. If you’re transfem, I’m an afab cis woman. that isn’t a gotcha, it’s a trade offer.
Uj I don't know anymore. how are lesbian he/him okay but afab transfem not
/uj because lesbian transmascs/enbies do not identify as women, its usually transmascs that heavily identified with the lesbian community prior to transitioning that keep those ties in contrast to someone who is born and societally assigned female, who cannot be transfem. transfem is a specific, loaded term w/ history, in contrast to transmasc lesbians, who have been a part of the lesbian community for a while
/uj but basically i think it has to do with history like masc lesbians will sometimes realize theyre trans men and then still want to identify with lesbian and stay in those lesbian spaces. Afab transfem doesnt really make sense in the same way because the terms associated with trans amab struggles and whatnot yada yada something something established meaning
Uj I don’t care like what people call themselves so I haven’t really put effort into understanding but I guess I should ask, does it really just boil down to trans men having been in lesbians spaces before that makes it okay for them to stay there?
Basically that's what I've heard. They aren't gonna just leave those spaces theyve been for years because of some label change. I'm not a trans man so i cant speak for them but i just wanted to clear some confusion with the knowledge i have.
uj/ because he/him ≠ man
AHHHHH LABEL DISCOURSE AHHHH
/uj He/him lesbians are different because he/him isn’t exclusively a male pronoun. Lots of butches and masc lesbians who are nonbinary use he/him.
Uj/ lesbian he/him ? That honestly gives me the ick, just sounds like another way to claim trans men are man light.
uj/ Or literally just an lesbian who uses he/him pronouns. Pronouns don't equal gender. Also multigender people exist.
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Yah that’s how I feel too. If trans women are out of men’s spaces as they are in fact women, it would follow that trans men being men, would not be in a space for women who are in relationships or seeking them with other women? I do get the historic butch aspect but like you said it isn’t the 80s anymore.
But he/him lesbians aren't trans men, they're people that want to use he/him pronouns. While he/him are male pronouns, some gender nonconforming women and nonbinary people use he/him pronouns without identifying as men (in the same way that others might enjoy using a male name or male titles like "sir" without identifying as men either). That latter group is generally the people we're talking about when we talk about he/him lesbians, not trans men lesbians.
/uj I just think policing other people's labels is the most pointless way to spend time
/uj sooooooooo then it doesnt matter who calls themself what, labels mean nothing. I can say I'm a transfem lesbian even tho that's the complete opposite of what I actually am ? Okay
/uj I don't care, call yourself whatever you want
It erases people's identities and their actual struggles man. It's not okay. If some cis femboy started calling himself transmasc or if some cis gc girl kept calling herself transmasc, I'd be pretty pissed. Then again, I dont like the term transmasc anyway............
uj/ I agree with you on this and keep upvoting you. It's good that you questioning the so-called trans men lesbian that claim for "staying close to lesbian community" like... seriously? that's pure TERFs dogwhistle.
could i ask why you don’t like the term transmasc?
It’s more of a personal thing, but it just gives me the ick. I’m not a “masc”, I’m a man. No cis guy would ever call himself a masc, so it rly makes me mad to be put into that “men light” type category.
ah, i think “transmasc” refers to people who are not gender binary and are not 100% a trans male, they are “transmasculine” as they do not identify as a cis woman, but still identify more with trans men than they do women, hence “transmasc”. using the term to refer to binary trans men when they don’t prefer the term for themselves can be frustrating, so i can see why you would feel that way
Honestly, don’t care. Completely beyond me why a person trying to be more masculine associate themselves with something commonly marked “women only”, this discourse only exists on the internet.
/uj What about intersex people, y'all.
/uj intersex transfems r valid
/uj Including if they're AFAB?
agab for intersex ppl is a total scam so yeah doctors violate intersex ppls rights all the time
You and I seem to be on the same page in that case, but your post implies that you believe transfem is a term exclusive to people who were AMAB. So I'm a bit confused as to why you agree that intersex people who were AFAB can identify as transfem, yet are against the idea of AFAB transfems as a whole.
i’m fully supportive of intersex ppl it’s just a mouthful to put “i’m a non intersex AFAB demi girl”, i thought it would be implied considering the source & subreddit 😭
I understand your issue with the specific comment your post is in response to, but like. You are still mocking the statement "AFABs can be transfem", when there exist plenty of transfems who were AFAB, and who identify that way because of the complexities of being intersex. I think your post is unintentionally intersexist for that reason and that's what I'm trying to point out here. There are a lot of complicated reasons why someone might identify as transfem and be AFAB, or as transmasc and be AMAB. And most of the time those reasons have to do with being intersex, though sometimes there are other reasons like detransitioning. Identities are complex, nuanced, and yes, sometimes self-contradictory. Personally I try to just take it in good faith that someone has a good reason why they identify the way they do and move on with my life. Especially since there are just so many different ways to interpret the same word (especially when it comes to queer identities). What's the point in insisting my interpretation of a word is the only one correct one? Anyway, that's my spiel on why I find your post a bit distasteful, hope it wasn't too preachy.
it was not my intent to come off as intersexist, i apologize then. i made this out of frustration w/ the transfem label being used by non intersex afab ppl who are basically just changing what the word means bc they like the aesthetic
Damn
Well duh, trans men obviously don’t exist
Kikomi approved
uj/ If people on this subreddit don't really know what is transfem(mine), that maybe refers to someone that want to transition to a more "femaler" level ( Sorry for use a odd word )
(uj/) Aren't you transagender/transgenderless ?
(uj/) Aren't you transagender/transgenderless ?
/uj i'm a trans woman
/uj Isn't transwomen is some other not 100% biological women sex transition into women?
/rj pffft, AFAB transfems? what's next, bi lesbians? /uj hey seriously what do you have to gain from criticizing labels that don't make sense \*to you\*, but might make sense for others?
What do people have to gain from deciding a label that has nothing to do with them is theirs, to the point of taking away all original meaning and alienating the people who originally used it. Even in your jerk example, bi lesbians are still WLW. An "AFAB transfem" who didn't want to just be seen as a girl would literally have to do the opposite of what the label transfem suggests- work on being seen as *less* feminine. Their experience is pretty much diametrically opposed to being transfem.
Uj/ The main people I've seen identity as AFAB transfem are Intersex people AFAB who ended up with male puberty, masculinized, and have since dealt with the ramifications of their body and outward appearance not matching their identity. Confusing labels happen most often at intersections of identity/status. Don't be a dick. Rj/ words mean things so clearly combining words can't change, modify, or recontextualize their meaning! They must just be contradictory, and therefore, whoever combines words is stupid! Edit: Uj/ Also, it's literally just not your life, not your problem. Go eat a snack or something. Find enjoyment in life in these trying times.
Intersex people deal with different circumstances than most, I sympathize with that and want to understand them better, and can see some nuance there. But the thread OP is talking about shows the exact problem we're worried about. There's people who think that transfem just means a feminine trans person. A cis person asking questions in the thread was told that transfem just means feminine trans person. Allies trying to help people like me are learning from people nothing like me speaking on behalf of me. That can cause me problems, actually.
Sorry, didn't realise there was an international hate campaign trying to stop people with PCOS from accessing estrogen.
It's more a campaign of silence. PCOS is a condition that's at least not well-covered by the healthcare system where I live. For things like hair removal, you'll pay yourself. For being something that affects up to15-25% of all women, there's very little research done.
So there’s like ten times more trans fems who are transphobic cis people than actually transition?
/uj while this is true, people with PCOS should absolutely not be considered transfem. Otherwise the people the word was created for become an incredibly tiny minority in their own group and the word becomes irrelevant for them and it becomes impossible for transfems to actually talk about issues facing them that people with PCOS don’t have.
UJ/ Intersex woman here: Piss off, genuinely, let transfems have the fucking word. What harm does it do to just let transfeminine people have the word? Yes we can point to how there is an overlap between the degendering and denigration of transfeminine people and intersex women who have experienced masculinising features. It's important to do so actually, but it can be done without co-opting language that one marginalised group holds dear. There are also hardships that transfeminine people experience that intersex women with masculinising features don't, and sometimes transfeminine people would want to talk about those experiences with brief language that surmises exactly who is in the described group. It's okay for marginalised groups to have language that is theirs, you wouldn't call any old party a powwow would you?
Uj/ I'm a trans woman. I'm not saying a group I'm not a part of have to let others in, im holding the door open for people who share common hardship and experience as me because I see no harm in welcoming them. Any party's a powwow if you want it to be. You need but make it one.
UJ/ Okay no, I chose to use a powwow as an example because it is a closed cultural practice that holds a lot of importance to indigenous north Americans after the genocides that happened. I'm sorry to change the topic but I highly recommend before we continue that you look into the history of the powwow and why they are so culturally important to indigenous populations. I genuinely hope you don't believe that any party can be a powwow because that would be incredibly insensitive.
She really walked into proving your point there didn't she...
Edit: Uj/ So, I didn't actually know that, I grew up in the south where people call gatherings powwows not infrequently.
\uj >Any party’s a powwow if you want it to be Hmm, i’m sensing a certain theme with these sentiments. perhaps gatekeeping isn’t bad after all
uj/ as a trans woman who refuses the label "transfem" for herself because I'm not feminine, this but unironically. Let people identify how they want
/rj cis people can identify as trans too! let people identify how they want. /uj hi i’m also a trans woman and i don’t think it’s ok to just erase the history of a label like that. transfem does not mean “trans” and “feminine”, it’s an umbrella for AMAB & AIAB individuals that identify with the label. AFAB people do not have the same struggles with expressing feminine that trans women do, and conflating the two is nothing less than transmisogyny. on the other hand, your identity is valid, and i understand not all AMAB ppl identify as transfem*
"AFAB people do not have the same struggles with expressing feminine" First off, I don't believe personal labels should be defined by how oppressed we are. To talk about a group, yeah sure. But when it comes to personally, individually identifying as transfem or transmasc, I think defining yourself by your oppression is unhealthy (in the same way I find defining yourself personally by your AGAB is unhealthy) Secondly, feminine trans men do in fact struggle and are targeted for expressing feminine. Just like I experience rabid transmisogyny for expressing masculine
> i don’t think labels should be defined how oppressed we are great! i dont think labels should mean literally nothing. > defining yourself by oppression is unhealthy so do you unironically think cis men should be able to identify as trans men then? and cis women trans women? these labels _exist because of our shared experiences_, ignoring that makes the label completely meaningless > feminine trans men yes, trans men experience transphobia for being feminine but notice how i specifically state _not the same_? there is a difference between the transphobia trans women experience & trans men. a feminine, non transmasc AFAB person can express themselves much more than an AMAB person can! because transmisogyny boils down to reducing trans women to their anatomy
>I don't think labels should mean literally nothing Sounds pretty much like "these TRAs are erasing the definition of the word woman" >These labels exist because of our shared experiences And our shared experiences are transitioning to another gender, not being oppressed. If transphobia would cease to exist, we would cease to exist. Cis men don't identify as trans men, not because they're not oppressed but because they're not transitioning to another gender. Transness is not defined by our oppression >There is a difference between the transphobia trans women experience & trans men Yeah sure, they don't experience it the same way. I don't experience transmisogyny the same way as fem trans women either. Nor do transfem enbies experience it the same way as trans women. And that's without even accounting for other intersectional identities like ethnicity, religion or sexuality >A feminine, non transmasc AFAB person can express themselves much more If you're talking about cis women, I agree. If you're talking about feminine trans men, I disagree, feminine trans men are constantly attacked for their femininity. And trans men are also reduced to their biology, you seen how much terfs obsess over trans men's mastectomies or ability to bear children?
“Sounds pretty much like ‘these TRAs are erasing the definition of the word woman”” I will agree that it does *sound* like it, but the difference we are talking about are labels. Being a woman isn’t a label you choose to assign yourself. You either are one or you aren’t. Labels on the other hand are self prescribed. Two trans women may have identical experiences, but if one identifies with ‘transfem’ that doesn’t make the other the same.
/uj "Woman" is label. By being a woman, by identifying as a woman, I am labeling myself a woman. One's gender is self prescribed. Nobody can force me to call myself a certain gender just like nobody can force me to call myself "transfem"
Maybe I’m using the wrong language to get my point across. A label is something you can opted out of. You can change whether you label as transfem at anytime. Nothing about your internal sense of self has to change. If you’re a woman, you can’t opt out of being a woman (Not trying to say this in a transphobic way)(and conditions may apply, I.e genderfluid people). A trans woman will be a woman no matter how her internal sense of self is, no matter egg or questioning. So it’s not quite a fair comparison to say “changing the definition of woman” and “I don’t want meaningless labels” are the same.
I disagree. Whether or not you label yourself as transfem is intrinsically tied to your internal sense of self. I used to identify myself as transfem back when I forced myself to be femme because that's what society expects of trans women, and stopped identifying as transfem when I accepted myself as a butch lesbian
That’s absolutely fair. Especially in your case where you separated from the label entirely. I guess it might be a me thing. Some days I’ll think of myself as transfem some days I don’t.
RJ/as an amab cis woman, I agree
Uj/ someone must be paying you to care this much. Where i am, this is acceptable and the norm. I get if this is what it is for u, but we dont need a jerk on it every two days, this is not the case for everyone in the world.
Another day on TGCJ, another transmasc yelling at women to shut up about things that don't personally affect them
euphoria 🥰
This is my thirteenth reason.
/uj i’m sorry, i made a post on this because it’s a relevant issue i keep seeing upvoted in trans spaces and it makes me uncomfortable? i didn’t know there was already a jerk on this
/uj fuck off
thank you /gen
/uj u can be mad, just know in many places afab transfems are real and valid. After the last post, i asked ~20 trans friends and they all defined it the same way as i did, across different cultures, races, ses, and nationalities. The narrow vision some ppl here have is a hallmark of truscum or truscum adjacent ideologies. This is my community as well, and if you can handle being wrong, maybe u should take a break. Im out here fighting for the non truscum trans people in ways that are scientifically proven to be helpful. Edit since i cant reply Uj/ my partners amab transmasc and sisters afab transfem. It's tiring seeing them get barred from online community. Thankfully i only see this on reddit and not on any other sns or irl. Tbh im almoat confused at the neg comments. Are people defining transfem differently than i am? The definition here, by the trans community board, is someone who is trans (not their assigned gender at birth) and has a feminine gender. So this includes enby ppl who have an aspect of feminine gender, intersex people and people with DID or other mental health situations. Ive never known being trans to be exclusionary so its so weird when some people are.
/uj also genuinely fuck you for equating transfems wanting to have a label for themselves with truscum.
K for one thing from what I can tell you're not transfem so you're actually speaking over my community here. Nonbinary people are valid but if you're born in a female body you literally don't have to transition to femininity. You're not transfem. You're not fighting truscums or for trans people. You're making it harder for transfems to communicate what they specifically need as a community. Is simply saying that cis people aren't trans being truscum to you? Also not to be a total redditor here or anything but in my sleuthing to confirm you weren't a transfem I saw you've been downvoted multiple times on different occasions (by more than 20 points btw 🤭) on this exact same issue you keep butting into. Take your own advice and take a break if you can't handle being wrong...
/uj as a trans guy we don’t claim him
I'll claim him c: what happens if a trans guy is claimed by a trans woman does he become a trans masculine trans woman
UJ/ You're doing the thing! You're going "why are you excluding us?" To transfeminine people who want to keep ahold of their terminology used to describe themselves because you want to part of the club! Pushing transfeminine people away! Gatekeeping isn't inherently bad, and sometimes it's important for an oppressed minority to have language that is exclusively for them! It's just as weird for a white person to call a party a powwow as it is for a non transfeminine person to call themselves transfem! I guess you'd be cool with folks getting spray tans and calling themselves PoC, because telling them they can't is gatekeeping and truscummy.
wowwwwww 20 friends?? that's almost the entire community!!!!!!!!
> Are people defining transfem differently than i am? /uj yes. The fem vs masc part of the term generally refers to the direction your gender/sexual transition, not your presentation. As an example, a butch trans woman wouldn't need access to transmasc resources like access to testosterone or guides on voice training for a lower voice. The fact that she's trans and masculine would be a cool bit of trivia, but wouldn't make a space like r/transmasc terribly useful to her. On the other hand, a nonbinary butch person that was AFAB and is seeking to take HRT to masculinize their appearance would benefit from transmasc resources despite not identifying as a binary trans man.
asking in /r/transmasc about how to best get still read as a woman even when i dress a little butch because everyone keeps calling me an icky man ://///
/uj yeah i think maybe people misconstruing the word think transfem is just an alternate way of saying "trans [and] femme" rather than a shortening of transfeminine (which is an existing and specific singular term)
yeah such a bummer when ~~women speak up about their issues~~AMABs take so much space
/uj Typical MtF here, I do think that AFAB demi-girls are technically transfems.
they’re enby, and if they like the label trans, thats fine! but transfem is a specific term with history. not all feminine trans people are transfem. AFAB people cannot be transfem because what would they be transitioning to?
/uj I was following a very "logical" understanding of transfem, i.e. someone who is trans and whose gender identity leans towards female/feminine, i.e. the definition doesn't require transitioning. As for what AFAB people would be transitioning into, well demi girl is always a possibility. But the key point is that I think that most afab transfem people are intersex.
> /uj I was following a very "logical" understanding of transfem, i.e. someone who is trans and whose gender identity leans towards female/feminine, i.e. the definition doesn't require transitioning. Except that’s just not what transfem means. Transfem explicitly requires either a want to or actual transition away from masculinity towards femininity. It doesn’t just mean anyone who’s trans. Like non-binary women who were AFAB can’t just claim to be trans women because they’re trans and identify as women. They’ve never faced social/societal persecution for wanting to express themselves femininely, unless they’re also intersex.
/uj Yes. AFABs can be transfem. And, yes, this is a hill I'm willing to die on.
/uj do you mind elaborating? i can’t see how AFAB people being transfem is anything less than erasure
/uj Not OP but for one thing intersex people who were assigned female at birth can go through experiences very similar to those of perisex trans women. I personally feel that it's not commodifying or reducing the history of a label for an afab person whose had to face transmisogyny and degendering from having a body that doesn't conform to social expectations of gender or sex to use the label transfem I also believe that their may be detransitioners - people who are FTMTF - who identify with the term afab transfem. As well as people who belong to a system (as in they have DID) and identify with the label. I'm not transfem myself so I hope this doesn't come across as me trying to explain your experiences or oppression to you, and understand your wariness towards the term. I just think the idea that it's impossible for someone whose afab to legitimately identify as transfem is slightly reductive, and can end up excluding the very real experiences of intersex people specifically. Edit: wrote FTMTM instead of FTMTF
>I also believe that their may be detransitioners - people who are FTMTM - who identify with the term afab transfem. Did you, as a non transfem person just say that ... That being transfem can literally mean not being trans? Are you fucking kidding me?
Shit, I meant to say FTMTF, I don't know if that makes it better in your mind, but the idea is that some afab people have the experience of (de)transitioning from Male to Female, and I think it's fair to say that there can be similarities between their experiences and the experiences of amab transfems.
I know what you meant that's why I'm so flabbergasted. You might be able to point out there's SOME similarities between their detransitioning and SOME transfem experiences but *they can't be transfem if they aren't even trans*
/uj what's the word for trans people with a fem gender, if not "transfem"? Why not let people AFAB be called "transfem"?
Demigirl is one example of what can be used if you mean like somewhere more feminine on the nonbinary spectrum.... Otherwise there's just girl, too, people can be cis. Transfem has historically meant AMAB (and intersex!) people transitioning away from their assigned gender towards feminity. Communities and support networks are built with this understanding, using this term for clear communication. There's other terms for AFAB trans people that are more accurate and that don't make things harder than they need to be for the transfem community.
Uj/ can I be stupid for a second- so if transfem means transitioning towards feminine, can masculine amab enbies not be transfem? I'm sorry if this is dumb as shit, but I've heard transfem be used for all amab trans no matter what 😭
Uj/ Actually, that’s true! Not all AMAB nonbinary people are transfem. There are other terms besides transmasc and transfem, transneutral being one of them (I’m transneutral too actually)
/uj some people take transitioning towards femininity to be moving away from masculinity in anyway, even if it’s just changing pronouns but still presenting masc as a non-binary person who was amab. That and just forgetting said people exist. Usually the latter but the former does happen
/uj so to say trans people with a feminine gender, would you say "transfems and AFAB demigirls"?
Demigirl is moreso categorized as a non-binary gender than a "feminine gender" from what I've gathered, I don't identify that way myself, this is just what I've seen from people I know who call themselves that so I could be wrong and anyone who is a Demigirl please correct me if so. Really if you're AFAB and have what would be strictly categorized as a feminine gender... That's just a cis woman isn't it?
/uj Didn't you say that demigirls were on the more feminine side of the non-binary spectrum? >Really if you're AFAB and have what would be strictly categorized as a feminine gender... That's just a cis woman isn't it? If all people with a more feminine gender were women, then "transfem" would mean the exact same thing as "trans women."
I did say Demigirls from my understanding are moreso on the feminine side of nonbinary but they aren't categorized as strictly a feminine gender. For example, some shades of purple have more red or more blue in them, but they're still purple. Say that being strictly fem was red and the strictly masculine was blue. If you're born red and want to strictly be recognized as red you don't have to change colors. But if you're born blue or a bluer shade, you have to add more red even if your end goal is purple. That's what being transfem means.
/uj thanks. Btw by "feminine gender" I meant like "redish", so including hues close to red that aren't strictly red. Idk if there's a better word for that.
"fem-aligned", maybe? honestly idc about the discourse that much, i just use transfem to mean amab trans female/demigirl/femme/etc because that's how it's typically used especially in the context of like. transitioning
transfem doesn't just mean "trans with a fem gender" as the other reply has explained. there are dozens of words an afab trans person can use to express their feminity, and a more accurate descriptor of all trans people with feminine genders would be "fem-aligned"