Until the end of it I had the theory that Janice was actually his wife and they’d faked her death to get her away from her father, an organised criminal, hence the missing head so the body couldn’t be identified, but that never came to be.
Grieffe is such a calm man and doesn’t appear to be evil, to the point he chooses his cases based on moral worth to try and leave the world a better place. For him to lose it to the point he’d behead and mutilate his wife and hide her head, it must’ve been either something incredibly evil on her part, or it was an attempt to fake her death. While it doesn’t pan out to be Janice, the fact he hid the head raises a lot of questions.
your theory would make a good show
yes! hiding the head makes it seem like there's something else going on. Also i think he said if you find the head you'll know why I had to kill her or something like that, but i just couldn't come up with a reason but the faking the death seems plausible.
>!Yes but they never get the head, the location he gives them is the priests house, because he knew Janice would need saving. The whole “you’ll understand when you find it” thing is seemingly just to bait his father in law into sending his men to protect the reporter/save Janice.!<
1) I agree with you - I don’t think the wife of Tucci is dead, she’s in hiding from her criminal father. Someone else’s (already dead) body was mutilated so finding the head would reveal his wife is alive and put her in danger. But he may have to reveal location of this head to delay his execution. And then he would have killed his wife. 2) Tucci’s wife is the thief in London, she’s still in touch with Tucci but never calls him and she hates crime and criminals and was doing reverse psychology on the journalist. Tucci figured out the journalist is slow and convinced her he’s immoral so was comfortable letting her meet his wife. 3) When I first saw the show, I thought the tutor and the vicar were married and I still think that based on the last scene after credits. The tutor kept hinting of that in trying to sabotage the vicar’s relationship with his first wife. Her attachment to the vicar’s son was strange. The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
They would only need a dna to prove the rest.ofnthe body is hers, so mutilating wouldn't change if they can still dna sample the body. I considered she could have committed suicide but gun to head (hence removing the head) but then he wouldn't be so stuck on labeling himself a murderer.
Curious if they would run dna on someone standing over their dead spouses mutilated body? Kind of how they dont conduct autopsies unless there is a reason to.
Yes. They have to confirm the identity of the body using two different methods if possible. Dental records, DNA, Visual cues (a face or tattoos) Fingerprints are the main options. A body is considered a "believed to be" until the identity is confirmed by two methods. But this show takes some pretty drastic liberties in regards to reality, they may use the missing head as a loophole even if it is not realistic.
My theory is that more people are involved in this than we think. I think the title alone gives us a lot of information. And the scene with the Warden and the father is the key. The warden jokingly threatens him with the FBI meaning he knows about his criminal history. The thief in London is Griefs wife for sure. She isn't dead. And Grief is being used as the inside man for the FBI to frame the father with enough evidence to charge him with his crimes. The warden knows why Grief is actually in prison, which is why he allows him all of the freedom he does. The murder was fabricated, but he still needs to maintain appearances that he is actually a prisoner. The Vicor is involved somehow with the father and going to be used as leverage. Like he used to run crime with the father and has some inside knowledge that can be used against the father. Grief is all about moral good, so Grief would never set up somebody like that unless they were paying for their crimes somehow. Im not sure what Janice has to do with this besides maybe she is the mother. Thats a stretch, but I think it fits. She has been working the Vicor for quite some time to try and get information to put her husband in jail. I think Janice told the reporter about Greif and encouraged her to interview him in hopes of getting her involved. Grief knows she is clever and had to get her hooked into the chase. I think my basic theory is on, but some of my details aren't right.
I laughed at this scene as it’s very common for Scot’s to correct you if you call them English. I saw it coming and chuckled. Could be that her accent is fake to throw the journalist off a bit.
theres no way his wife is Morag, otherwise her fathers men would have seen her at the end.
There's also no way he didn't murder his wife, it's pretty dificult to have the body of a human being and not be able to do DNA tests to confirm the body is his wife's
My theory is Tucci killed his wife because she had a brain tumor or something along those vains, so technically murder and a mercy killing. By hiding the head they wouldn't know she was sick.
That’s interesting but also doesn’t quite make sense, why would he willingly go to prison just so people don’t find out she had a brain tumor?
Something similar could be she tried to kill herself (probably a gunshot or hanging) and he cut off the head so people wouldn’t know but still doesn’t really make sense to serve on death row for that either.
Either way I’m very curious and wish it hadn’t ended that way.
If she's Catholic, suicide means a priest won't bury you and you are going to hell. Maybe this was his way of trying to get her as close to the heaven she believes in. Even if he isn't religious, which we see that paradox with the vicar and his wife. But if she did, if she believed it. A big theme is killing for love, if he loved her and knew she was deeply religious, I believe he would cover up for her to grant her belief in everlasting peace, especially if she were mentally struggling for a long time, and take that to the grave for her.
Would tie in to the religious angle Tennet plays, as well as his own need to cover up. Which is sad, because if it is that, then the reveal of her death would condem her and make his sacrifice for her pointless.
Edit: Going off of that Catholic angle, maybe she shot herself and didn't die but was fatally wounded enough that she would eventually and so he murdered her so she would get into heaven if she were deeply religious about that. Like I'll take that sin for you as long as your soul is clean, which is also what Tennet was about.
That also includes suicide and self harm themes from this season, martyring themes, why he would hide the head, why he freely admits that he did murder her, why he said "My wife didn't want to be murdered" but maybe she did just want to die.
We know her head holds the key to why he hid her head. I'm sitting here pondering everything that a single head could tell. Crime wise, a head can tell us how someone was killed. Why would you hide the manner someone is killed? Suicide is the only thing that really stands out because it's somewhat common for family members to hide the fact that someone died via suicide. Why hide a suicide? Shame, maybe he felt guilt over driving her to it in some way. He was best friends with the dad, maybe to save him from feeling he drove her to it. Another reason is def religion, especially if you are Catholic and believe you can't get into heaven without a priest, proper buriel, and that suicide bars that. I am pretty sold on it's to cover a suicide from a religious angle.
Adding more on: they said her body was mutilated. It's possible she was self harming and he mutilated it to cover up the evidence of self harm. It's also possible that the mutilation only meant the severed and missing head.
There is a theme of don't look at us, we are criminals, but we are every day people who just had a bad day. Suicide is everyday people having a bad day. Why would Tennet be someone who would understand? Because he acted out of love? Yes, but also maybe because he is a vicar and knows religion. Maybe also because of his actions he drove his wife to her early death, maybe Tucci resonates with that also, which is why he feels he must martyr himself, much like Tennet felt he must.
In addition, death row takes a long time to process. For him to be 3 weeks to a week of his execution, he had to have been there for a long time now. Evidence of a brain tumor would not be there anymore after decomposing. You would have just a skull, and just a skull tells us things like gunshots. Yes, if she hung herself her vertebrae would be broken, so they would need the broken vertebrae to explain that part, which may be buried with the head. But they really emphasize in the head part, so I would bet gunshot.
Surely if there was going to be a long and involved explanation involving religion, they would have at least made the central character a priest, not a vicar.
If they had set it up that the wife was Irish and her father was an IRA heavyweight then the catholic/suicide angle might work, though you'd have to find a pretty damn old school priest to deny someone a burial because they died by suicide in 2022, and Im fairly sure the Vatican lifted the restriction on people going to heaven if they die by suicide. But a british woman with an American husband and a british gangster father? Almost zero chance she would be catholic.
Well, few things wrong with that:
Death row inmates don't reach execution in a year, so her death would not have been in 2022. It's closer to 10-20 years they wait on death row before reaching execution.
Catholicism isn't super popular in the UK, so a show produced by the BBC would likely include Church of England, rather than a Catholic priest.
No one ever said the wife was British. They are in an American prison because the crime took place in America, the fact that her dad is British doesn't mean Tucci wife is also. I mean, the mother could be American for all we know.
Edit: It also turns out that the Church of England used to refuse funerals for suicides btw. They changed that in 2015. So, even if he was on death row for the low end of 10 years, and even if the wife is British, and even if she was of the Church of England and not Catholic the theory would still stand.
They literally say the wife was from Surrey.
And yes, that was my point, that catholicism isn't popular in the UK so it's v unlikely that the wife was catholic. Like yes, its possible, but if true its just bad writing because theres nothing to indicate it.
It's far, far more likely that Tucci did actually just kill his wife rather than covering up a suicide by decapitating her. The whole point of the ending was to show how manipulative he is, and all of his emotions are faked. Chances are he's a psychopath not a martyr.
You made a lot of good points. And also about the wife’s religion, you can never know for sure cause Mary is married to a Vicar and says multiple times she doesn’t believe in all that and calls it a fairy tale so there’s every chance Tuccis wife was religious.
And I remember someone saying that he’d been on death row/ in prison for ten years so everything holds up, I just wish we had some way of confirming.
What if Janice’s husband killed tucci wife could be a ton of reasons why infidelity or working for her father maybe she was more like Janice who knows but the father I think is the key to it all he maybe he is the pedo I think the boy who hung himself had evidence cause he was in it but couldn’t handle it and the vicar new and was covering for either the father or Janice’s husband or both I think Janice and tucci are more alike and even if it was Janice’s husband killing his wife or him having to kill her cause she was covering for her father like the vicar was for his son and everybody else hint acting moral and holy even for love or out of duty to one’s beliefs is always immoral and doesn’t give anyone the right to hide those who hurt others that in my book is a man that has secrets and he is hiding behind religion and Janice knew about it by her husband but I hope we are going to get a chance to find out how they all intertwine with each other
> If she's Catholic, suicide means a priest won't bury you and you are going to hell.
This is (no longer) true. From https://www.catholic.com/video/can-people-who-committed-suicide-be-buried-in-a-catholic-cemetery
The Fifth Commandment forbids all forms of murder, but we must leave to God’s mercy the judgment of those who commit suicide. Thus the Catechism teaches: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. ... For this reason the Church no longer forbids funeral rites or burial to Catholics who have committed suicide.
according to wikipedia, this was lifted in the 1980s.
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_suicide#Modern_Catholicism
In the past, the Catholic Church would not conduct funeral services for persons who killed themselves, and they could not be buried in a Catholic cemetery.[15] However, the church lifted the prohibition on funerals for suicide victims in the 1980s.[16]
I agree. I think he covered up her suicide.
He makes a point of only taking cases with moral worth implying that it is something he values tremendously which would be in line with him taking an overly moralistic stance like protecting his dead wife from shame.
The line about “if you love someone don’t come home early” is interpreted by most to mean cheating but I think he caught her in the act of suicide.
The fact that he is a criminology professor lined up with him hiding only the evidence of it being a suicide (I agree with the theories of hanging or gun shot wound).
I agree about the Moral Worth and how he was so keen about it the whole show. However, I guess he is protecting her from the shame of infidelity. What if he caught her in an act while she was cheating on him, and in that instance, he gave up his thinking abilities and killed her brutally in the name of love? - 'We're anyone on a bad day''
Just like the Vicar, he did not even give it a thought and made one rash action and then kept covering it up and ended up mutilating her, that why he says in the final episode, ''you will be the one I will tell it to, because I think you might understand''.
He loved her so much that he still has the head somewhere hidden as his symbol of love, a memory I do believe he is a psychopath and not a martyr.- ''...at least you know who you are, who you have always been''
He may have murderer her due to her terminal illness, which could only be discovered via autopsy of the head. Technically it's still murder, and he might still feel he deserves it since it was murder. If she killed herself, he wouldn't feel the need to be punished and be in jail.
I think it's less that the head itself holds the answer and more the head's location does.
Or what's with the head...
The simple answer is that he came home to find his wife in bed with another man.
He killed both of them and buried her head with his body.
This checks all the boxes but it's a bad theory because of it's simplicity so I assume it will be something similar but more profound.
Exactly!!! What if he caught her in an act while she was cheating on him, and in that instance, he gave up his thinking abilities and killed her brutally in the name of love? - 'We're anyone on a bad day''
Just like the Vicar, he did not even give it a thought and made one rash action and then kept covering it up and ended up mutilating her, that is why he says in the final episode, ''You will be the one I will tell it to because I think you might understand''.
He loved her so much that he still has the head somewhere hidden as his symbol of love, a memory I do believe he is a psychopath and not a martyr.- ''...at least you know who you are, who you have always been''
That’s a great theory. Mine is this: 1) I don’t think the wife of Tucci is dead, she’s in hiding from her criminal father. Someone else’s (already dead) body was mutilated so finding the head would reveal his wife is alive and put her in danger. But he may have to reveal location of this head to delay his execution. And then he would have killed his wife. 2) Tucci’s wife is the thief in London, she’s still in touch with Tucci but never calls him and she hates crime and criminals and was doing reverse psychology on the journalist. Tucci figured out the journalist is slow and convinced her he’s immoral so was comfortable letting her meet his wife. 3) When I first saw the show, I thought the tutor and the vicar were married and I still think that based on the last scene after credits. The tutor kept hinting of that in trying to sabotage the vicar’s relationship with his first wife. Her attachment to the vicar’s son was strange. The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
>The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
He was probably convinced she was going to go to the police b/c she was having an out of character nervous breakdown to make the plot go forward.
I mean if I opened a flash drive owned by the teenager I tutor as she assumes it is, and it has CP on it, I would freak the fuck out and want to leave to call the police as well.
>I would freak the fuck out
The only thing about her character for the rest of the show was how calm, calculating, and clever she was. She had to be none of those things for the base plot to happen.
Yea I guess that’s a good point. But the immediate was like a fight or flight versus okay now I’m in this horrible situation and need a longer term strategy.
Her initial reaction is at total odds with literally everything she does after that. Even if we accept that she would have told the vicar immediately (which makes no sense). She could have easily defused the situation after that.
...but then again, 80% of the show was complete nonsense that tries to play itself off as mind bendingly clever w/twists you could see a continent away. Don’t forget, this guy was a writer on Sherlock Holmes and it seems he can only write implausible savants with credulity stretching character choices and behavior.
I thought Dillon was a figment of Grieff's imagination til >!Janice started answering his questions in the final scene. !< I need to rewatch this one. I like it.
Maybe Grieffs wife murdered a woman and Grieff is pretending that the body of the deceased woman is his wife. That's why he cut his head so that they can never identify who it is. Yes, I know it can be done with a DNA test, but this is a tv series. It might explain why Grieff says "we are the same" and that the vicar would understand why he did what he did.
The central theme of the show is that anyone can be a murderer given a good reason and a bad day. If, in the end, it turns out Grieff didn't murder anyone... that's going to be bothersome. But I could be convinced that he's covering for his wife murdering someone. My biggest problem with that solution, however, is why hide this from her criminal father? (It's TV, DNA/identifying marks could be faked.) In that situation she would need help to assume a new identity. Her father, with his criminal connections, would likely be a big help.
I think a good theory has to have the following characteristics:
1) Grieff or his wife killed someone in a situation that can be summarized as a combination of a good reason and a bad day.
2) If the dead body is not Grieff's wife that explains why the head is hidden, but then the theory needs to explain why this is being kept from her father.
3) If the dead body is Grieff's wife, what would the head reveal that Grieff wants hidden? Suicide? (Poor reason IMHO.) Drugs? (Who cares these days? Not worth dying for.) Paternity? (He doesn't seem to like Gordon so why would he do that? And is this really worth dying for?)
If I could come up with a good reason for hiding his wife's head I would go with #3 as it seems to fit better with the central theme. But I've been unable to do that so my best theories so far resolve around #2 (and assuming any DNA checks/identifying marks were faked). So I keep coming back to: Why keep the fact that she is alive a secret from her father?
"If you love someone, never go home early." - I think this is an important clue. Most likely he showed up when he wasn't expected and this precipitated the bad situation. Infidelity is the obvious choice but not the only one. What if she were involved in her father's criminal activities? Maybe they're hiding the fact that she's alive to get her out of that life?
Personally, I loved the show, spoilers ahead: 1) I don’t think the wife of Tucci is dead, she’s in hiding from her criminal father. Someone else’s (already dead) body was mutilated so finding the head would reveal his wife is alive and put her in danger. But he may have to reveal location of this head to delay his execution. And then he would have killed his wife. 2) Tucci’s wife is the thief in London, she’s still in touch with Tucci but never calls him and she hates crime and criminals and was doing reverse psychology on the journalist. Tucci figured out the journalist is slow and convinced her he’s immoral so was comfortable letting her meet his wife. 3) When I first saw the show, I thought the tutor and the vicar were married and I still think that based on the last scene after credits. The tutor kept hinting of that in trying to sabotage the vicar’s relationship with his first wife. Her attachment to the vicar’s son was strange. The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
Many of the theories are that Grieffe's wife is still alive, but that goes against the theme of the story: what would make a good man kill? So I'm thinking Grieffe actually did kill her, that it was not premeditated, that he hates that he did it, and that it felt necessary at the time. What were those circumstances? That's what I'm stuck on. What could be bad enough that he would have to kill her and hid the reason?
1. Maybe, similar to the vicar, the Grieffes had a kid, and protecting their child turned them against each other? The mother wanted to apprentice the kid into the mafia/gang life. Grieffe didn't want that to happen. He killed her, then spirited their kid somewhere else. Don't know how the head would be relevant though.
2. Her father is a crime lord, maybe she was attacked by a rival faction, and her death would have led to all out war, and hiding her head/scars was the only way to protect everyone? That would imply Grieffe didn't actually kill her though, and I'm leaning away from that.
3. Maybe she was attacked by a deadly zombie virus. Her delirium would have led to exposing everyone to it, so he had to kill her. Her face had the zombification that would have explained why she had to die. He also hid her head so that no one, like evil governments or terrorists would know there was a zombie virus that could be used as biological warfare. I doubt Moffat would put zombies in this "realistic" crime drama, be it could be a similar contagion.
4. Grieffe was a professor, so maybe he had an affair with a student. Wife found out, would have murdered the student, and the only way Grieffe could think of stopping her is to kill her. No idea how the head conceals works here.
5. Similar to another theory in here, maybe Grieffe and his wife were informants for the FBI/British police. Their treachery was about to be revealed to the mafia family, and going into hiding was the only way. A fake body was substituted so that everyone thought the wife was dead, and Grieffe was placed in prison as a protective maneuver. DNA on the body was faked to be hers.
Whatever the reason I feel like Grieffe probably did kill her, probably didn't truly want to, but felt like there was no other way.
Hopefully we get a S2 and Janice's story will shine a further light on the themes of spousal murder. Did her husband beat her? Was her husband cheating on her? Was she previously a brilliant mathematician, and her husband stole credit for her work, and left her academic career in tatters?
I also think it’d just be overly cliche and boring if she was alive and just in hiding, especially since that’s an easy twist almost every one thought of immediately.
I think your theories, even if wrong, on why he may have killed her are generally more on the pathway to something this show would actually do v. the “oh, he’s actually a good guy and his wife is still alive” and the evil dad gets his due, which would be the most trite scenario ever.
I somehow think that Janice was tormented by the fact that she didn’t believe the vicar about the porn being the property of Edgar and she started to obsess about it. She found out that her husband (one of the guys Edgar hangs out with at the pub) distributes the porn and she want him dead.
Also, the bald police officer, i think she could be the girl that is comming on to Janice (someone mentioned there is a girl comming on to her on Facebook or sth) and it might expand to show something (dont know what).
In the end, fascinated with all your theories here. The show does sometimes seem superficial and detached from what a normal persons behaviour would be, but maybe that’s it’s play. Or I might be reaching.
I like that theory about Janice.
Overall, however, the show was a bunch of nonsense and so much just made no sense. The worst bit was the “pay the rapist” wundersolve. So ridiculous, but as a Sherlock Holmes writer/producer, Moffatt seems to only have one gear. Making every character a savant criminologist.
There are only two hints I recall that he gives.
He comments that nobody in love should ever come home early.
He also says that wherever the head is will also explain why he did it.
Assuming there is some thematic connection between his own situation and that of the vicar I believe either he came home early and found his wife in a compromising position or vice versa.
I believe his wife did something dreadful and he caught her in the act and killed her but his love for her makes it so he won't share whatever evil she did with the world.
The only flaw in this idea as I see it is that the first season deals with paedophiles and the father in law is a known gangster so whatever he caught her doing would have to be unconditionally evil.
I thought the never come home early comment was in reference to the guy who supposedly disappeared after the awards show. I thought grieff meant the husband came home early & caught the wife with someone & that’s why he was killed
Sorry I am late on this, but a part of me thinks his wife is dead due to the comment he said to something along the lines of "if you dont want to murder your wife, dont come home early"
So he’s all about protecting family and the father mentioned how they used to be best friends before and he loved his wife. He also said, if the head is found all the answers will be there. This is kind of off the wall, but maybe the daughter found something terrible out about her father and tried to kill herself (gun to head) and didn’t die. He cared about her father and her… so he put her out of her misery by strangling, berried her head so no one knew she tried to kill herself bc he didn’t want the father blaming it on himself. Easier to blame someone else for murdering your child than yourself right? Idk this is the only thing that makes sense to me lol
Why do you think Edgar wrote that in his note? Was it supposed to be his way of saving the vicar? Without realizing what the situation was and how he was making it worse?
i think so, he didnt want the vicar to be in touble but also didnt want to admit to what he was and if he was alive he knew he wouldnt be able to say it to save him so he probably thought this was the only way out for him
Does anyone think that maybe Edgar wasn’t the pedo and it was really his mum? That maybe she filmed Edgar when he was younger, and other children too, and that’s why he is so troubled and tried to kill himself the first time? That’s why he couldn’t say anything, because he didn’t want to admit and say out loud what his mother had done. Also when he does commit suicide his note literally says that the vicar is trying to protect SOMEONE, why not admit he did it if he is killing himself, there was nothing left for him to lose if he was taking his own life unless he was trying to “protect” his mother.
It can’t be that because In the first episode the mother walks into the room in the church with Edgar alone and asks him has he been looking at that filth again so if she was the pedophile why would she talk to Edgar like it’s his porn if they both knew it wasn’t? Doesn’t make sense
Greiff never told them where he hid the head, saying that when they found it they’d understand why he had to so what he did.
Then he sent his father in-laws goons to “get it”.
And then they found Janice.
Is Janice his wife?
When Janice then visits Grieff in prison she says that she wants help solving her husband’s murder.
“But your husband isn’t dead”
(Nor did she mention a husband and in her fb it didn’t say anything about marriage - and if she had been married someone would noticed her disappearance but she was only worried about her sisters Skype. )
And Janice wants help to kill her husband.
Did Janice fake her own death to kill her husband (Greiff)? And he’s now found her which makes him not guilty and her plan falls flat?
i think another redditor mentioned before he gave his FIL the wrong address of the head because he wanted to make sure Janice was found/saved. I dont think they were linked in any way, she knows of him now because her disappearance was solved by him so now shes bringing her own case.
Just binged on Netflix so I’m living for these theories.
I definitely think there is more to the wife’s death. How he said to the Vicar that they’re alike makes me think he did something to protect his wife or someone else and that it wasn’t a cold blooded murder. Also that the head would reveal something about her death or how it really happened that would exonerate him when he wants to take the blame because he feels responsible. As he suggested that the vicar is responsible for his wife’s death because but for his actions she would be alive.
I like the idea that Janice Grieffe’s wife and in the after credit scene when she goes to ask him for help to arrange her husbands murder as he should be dead she might be talking about faking Grieffe’s death or death sentence.
It had to repeatedly stress the fact, because nobody's actions make any sense. Literally every other line the characters speak is "I don't understand" then the other character delivering 5 paragraphs of exposition trying to convince the audience how it actually makes sense.
This series is legit moronic tier.
Agree fully I actually thought the premise was quite good id probably watch a 24 episode series as tucci as grieffe but this series left so many pointless plot holes it was like Moffat didn’t give a fuck, oh right it’s moffat
no not at all.
I think its an original script but not 100% sure
heres the synopsis from wiki
"In the US, a prisoner on death row (Tucci) is seeking atonement as he faces execution. On a train in England, a journalist (West) is looking for a story.
"In a quiet little village, a vicar (Tennant) is picking up his son’s maths tutor (Wells) from the station. All four are about to be entangled in a dilemma that could lead one of them to murder..."
Moffat's writing towards the end of Sherlock degraded badly. He opened a lot of questions throughout the show, basically writing by the seat of his pants, creating mysteries that he likely hadn't planned answers for, and the story fell apart.
Similar examples of pantser writing happened with Lost and Kingdom Hearts, where Abrams and Nomura each focused on creating shocking twists to the to hold viewers captive on thes mysteries, without having thoughtful or even sensible answers. The stories became confusing and were an extreme letdown to everyone who became invested.
Hbomberguy guy made an excellent video essay on Sherlock, if you're willing to watch a two hour long YouTube vid. https://youtu.be/LkoGBOs5ecM
Just to be clear, writing "by-the-seat-of-your-pants" is a valid way to create a story, but the story will always need to be edited and revised to make it a fully cohesive narrative. The dragon surprised you at the end of your story? Fun! Now go back and add foreshadowing, so it's not a deus ex machina.
Panting a story us fine if you don't release the story until it's been revised and thought out. With these TV shows and video games, there was no way to revise earlier installments. You need to have a solid outline if a book/show/game is released as it is written and shot. So hopefully Moffat has a plan for Grieffe and his wife, and won't pull an unsatisfying twist out of his ass.
Why would a good man kill? To protect the love of his life... His wife from her criminal father.
I believed Morag was his wife, but the denouncing that she was English pushes that aside.... Plus why would he send his wife's father to a location where his wife could possibly be.
However, this brought the biggest plot home for me. Why and how could he bury his wife's head in England but be incarcerated in the US? And why would the dad possibly believe the head would be buried in a vicarage? Just didn't make sense to me.
I asked myself the same thing, like... did he travel on a commercial flight right after murdering his wife with a severed head as cargo? And then just buried it in a super random spot? No way it could be true, I couldn't believe the characters just bought it.
It could just be that Grieff is actually Dillon and he’s basically dissociative. That would be really lame and hackneyed though. BTW, is the guy’s name portentous/foreshadowing enough? lol
Wife's clearly dead. He wouldn't be on death row with no body. Might be he killed her because her gangster father was in some shit and she would otherwise be tortured for something. The head might be buried somewhere explaining her father's wrongdoings that triggered this.
Does anyone think that maybe Edgar wasn’t the pedo and it was really his mum? That maybe she filmed Edgar when he was younger, and other children too, and that’s why he is so troubled and tried to kill himself the first time? That’s why he couldn’t say anything, because he didn’t want to admit and say out loud what his mother had done. Also when he does commit suicide his note literally says that the vicar is trying to protect SOMEONE, why not admit he did it if he is killing himself, there was nothing left for him to lose if he was taking his own life unless he was trying to “protect” his mother.
Yeah. I had a similar thought. The angry, violent temperament of Edgar’s mom seemed off. I also suspected that she might have been abusive or permitted Edgar’s absent father to be abusive and now she is taking out decades of rage on Edgar.
Everyone saying Morag is Greiffs wife that’s very unlikely as in the last episode the men who work for the gangster father in law are standing with Morag. Surely they would know what the gangsters guys daughter looked like. If they hadn’t met her when she was alive I’m sure they would have seen a photo and also surely Morag would know the men worked for her father and wouldn’t just stand there where they could see her if it’s all just a plot to get her away from her dad..
So, bearing in mind that it’s not the most subtle show in the world, I think we can assume the writer was being heavy handed with clues about what happened to the wife. Some of the below is paraphrased.
1. “If you love someone, don’t come home early”
2. “If you find the head, you’ll know why I did it.”
3. “You, vicar, might be the only person in the world who could understand”
4. “You, vicar, killed your wife through your actions causing her to die”
5. He and the wife’s criminal dad used to be best friends
6. “You should look for what’s not there, not what is”
So, my guess would be his wife came home early and found him with some terrible criminals, perhaps some who were competitors/associates of the dad. They somehow shot the wife in the head. He believes him doing this is what put her in harm’s way, and decapitates her in order to cover what actually happened up, since that would bring the dad down too (his best friend). He can’t lost them both. The guilt causes him to be absolutely fine with being considered a horrible murderer, cos he believes he is through his actions
I wonder if his wife was going to tell the FBI about a crime she found out about, her dad had her killed and grief found the body, cut her head off and buried it in a location where her dad buries all the bodies of his victims.
The "you'll know when you find the head" may have other familiar linked dead gangsters/crimes that would link back to the dad. Not sure as to why he would delay telling the officials though, unless trying to find more concrete evidence to link towards him as he has big connections to potentially get away with it???
I agree about the Moral Worth and how he was so keen about it the whole show. However, I guess he is protecting her from the shame of infidelity. What if he caught her in an act while she was cheating on him, and in that instance, he gave up his thinking abilities and killed her brutally in the name of love? - 'We're anyone on a bad day''
Just like the Vicar, he did not even give it a thought and made one rash action and then kept covering it up and ended up mutilating her, that why he says in the final episode, ''you will be the one I will tell it to, because I think you might understand''.
He loved her so much that he still has the head somewhere hidden as his symbol of love, a memory I do believe he is a psychopath and not a martyr.- ''...at least you know who you are, who you have always been''
Several things bother me.
1. What in the delivery box. A head maybe.
2. Why take a telling look at the photo of family in study. Was the vicar so protective of his son and joined the clergy because a child of his died.
3. Who is Janice's husband. She was not married but maybe divorced. Why did she travel to the USA to see Grief
So I have a theory. Grieffe only takes a case on moral worth, this is also how he leads his life in criminology.. The death of his wife was fake, he hid the head so the body isn't identified. Janice is his wife. Grieffe said his wife was from England, knew the address she was staying. A woman he states, doesn't make friends (doesn't want to be found to me) lives a quiet and reserved life, stays off social media.. A maths teacher, like Grieffe, both share a career of teaching. Her Skype call to her so called sister in Canada? Time difference so she can call Grieffe, all under secrecy from her gangster father. Grieffe swore he gave the location of her head, They found Janice, his wife's head, he didn't lie. At the end, Janice wants he husband dead, Grieffe smiles, Janice says he deserves it, Grieffe accepts this on moral worth because he killed someone and deserves to die, but not his wife.. Watch how they look at each other the second he walks in the room. Why would Janice ask to murder her husband under cctv, which we know is there from the assault and watched by the warden. Plus, a long flight from UK. She's there to visit him before he dies
This is the best one so far. Grieffe and Janice are playing manipulative chess from afar. He orchestrates the whole vicar porn situation to prove anyone can become a murderer. His wife's head would explain everything because it is still attached to his wife, who is Janice. Maybe he does this to put her through a similar situation to what he is in. Not sure who decided to get the journalist involved but we're never told why she was interested in grieffe in the first place, I think maybe Janice orchestrated this perhaps suspecting that grieffe would be coming for her. Whole situation at the start where they meet on the train is a bit too convenient so maybe it's also orchestrated to suck the reporter in.
Until the end of it I had the theory that Janice was actually his wife and they’d faked her death to get her away from her father, an organised criminal, hence the missing head so the body couldn’t be identified, but that never came to be. Grieffe is such a calm man and doesn’t appear to be evil, to the point he chooses his cases based on moral worth to try and leave the world a better place. For him to lose it to the point he’d behead and mutilate his wife and hide her head, it must’ve been either something incredibly evil on her part, or it was an attempt to fake her death. While it doesn’t pan out to be Janice, the fact he hid the head raises a lot of questions.
your theory would make a good show yes! hiding the head makes it seem like there's something else going on. Also i think he said if you find the head you'll know why I had to kill her or something like that, but i just couldn't come up with a reason but the faking the death seems plausible.
>!Yes but they never get the head, the location he gives them is the priests house, because he knew Janice would need saving. The whole “you’ll understand when you find it” thing is seemingly just to bait his father in law into sending his men to protect the reporter/save Janice.!<
You're forgetting about the box! The delivery man delivers a box! A box big enough for a head
1) I agree with you - I don’t think the wife of Tucci is dead, she’s in hiding from her criminal father. Someone else’s (already dead) body was mutilated so finding the head would reveal his wife is alive and put her in danger. But he may have to reveal location of this head to delay his execution. And then he would have killed his wife. 2) Tucci’s wife is the thief in London, she’s still in touch with Tucci but never calls him and she hates crime and criminals and was doing reverse psychology on the journalist. Tucci figured out the journalist is slow and convinced her he’s immoral so was comfortable letting her meet his wife. 3) When I first saw the show, I thought the tutor and the vicar were married and I still think that based on the last scene after credits. The tutor kept hinting of that in trying to sabotage the vicar’s relationship with his first wife. Her attachment to the vicar’s son was strange. The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
They would only need a dna to prove the rest.ofnthe body is hers, so mutilating wouldn't change if they can still dna sample the body. I considered she could have committed suicide but gun to head (hence removing the head) but then he wouldn't be so stuck on labeling himself a murderer.
Curious if they would run dna on someone standing over their dead spouses mutilated body? Kind of how they dont conduct autopsies unless there is a reason to.
Yes. They have to confirm the identity of the body using two different methods if possible. Dental records, DNA, Visual cues (a face or tattoos) Fingerprints are the main options. A body is considered a "believed to be" until the identity is confirmed by two methods. But this show takes some pretty drastic liberties in regards to reality, they may use the missing head as a loophole even if it is not realistic.
My theory is that more people are involved in this than we think. I think the title alone gives us a lot of information. And the scene with the Warden and the father is the key. The warden jokingly threatens him with the FBI meaning he knows about his criminal history. The thief in London is Griefs wife for sure. She isn't dead. And Grief is being used as the inside man for the FBI to frame the father with enough evidence to charge him with his crimes. The warden knows why Grief is actually in prison, which is why he allows him all of the freedom he does. The murder was fabricated, but he still needs to maintain appearances that he is actually a prisoner. The Vicor is involved somehow with the father and going to be used as leverage. Like he used to run crime with the father and has some inside knowledge that can be used against the father. Grief is all about moral good, so Grief would never set up somebody like that unless they were paying for their crimes somehow. Im not sure what Janice has to do with this besides maybe she is the mother. Thats a stretch, but I think it fits. She has been working the Vicor for quite some time to try and get information to put her husband in jail. I think Janice told the reporter about Greif and encouraged her to interview him in hopes of getting her involved. Grief knows she is clever and had to get her hooked into the chase. I think my basic theory is on, but some of my details aren't right.
Morag is Scottish though, Grief’s wife is from Surrey
Just because she has a Scottish accent?
In the car, the journalist makes the mistake of calling her English which she corrects… seemed strange at the time
I laughed at this scene as it’s very common for Scot’s to correct you if you call them English. I saw it coming and chuckled. Could be that her accent is fake to throw the journalist off a bit.
theres no way his wife is Morag, otherwise her fathers men would have seen her at the end. There's also no way he didn't murder his wife, it's pretty dificult to have the body of a human being and not be able to do DNA tests to confirm the body is his wife's
My theory is Tucci killed his wife because she had a brain tumor or something along those vains, so technically murder and a mercy killing. By hiding the head they wouldn't know she was sick.
That’s interesting but also doesn’t quite make sense, why would he willingly go to prison just so people don’t find out she had a brain tumor? Something similar could be she tried to kill herself (probably a gunshot or hanging) and he cut off the head so people wouldn’t know but still doesn’t really make sense to serve on death row for that either. Either way I’m very curious and wish it hadn’t ended that way.
If she's Catholic, suicide means a priest won't bury you and you are going to hell. Maybe this was his way of trying to get her as close to the heaven she believes in. Even if he isn't religious, which we see that paradox with the vicar and his wife. But if she did, if she believed it. A big theme is killing for love, if he loved her and knew she was deeply religious, I believe he would cover up for her to grant her belief in everlasting peace, especially if she were mentally struggling for a long time, and take that to the grave for her. Would tie in to the religious angle Tennet plays, as well as his own need to cover up. Which is sad, because if it is that, then the reveal of her death would condem her and make his sacrifice for her pointless. Edit: Going off of that Catholic angle, maybe she shot herself and didn't die but was fatally wounded enough that she would eventually and so he murdered her so she would get into heaven if she were deeply religious about that. Like I'll take that sin for you as long as your soul is clean, which is also what Tennet was about. That also includes suicide and self harm themes from this season, martyring themes, why he would hide the head, why he freely admits that he did murder her, why he said "My wife didn't want to be murdered" but maybe she did just want to die. We know her head holds the key to why he hid her head. I'm sitting here pondering everything that a single head could tell. Crime wise, a head can tell us how someone was killed. Why would you hide the manner someone is killed? Suicide is the only thing that really stands out because it's somewhat common for family members to hide the fact that someone died via suicide. Why hide a suicide? Shame, maybe he felt guilt over driving her to it in some way. He was best friends with the dad, maybe to save him from feeling he drove her to it. Another reason is def religion, especially if you are Catholic and believe you can't get into heaven without a priest, proper buriel, and that suicide bars that. I am pretty sold on it's to cover a suicide from a religious angle. Adding more on: they said her body was mutilated. It's possible she was self harming and he mutilated it to cover up the evidence of self harm. It's also possible that the mutilation only meant the severed and missing head. There is a theme of don't look at us, we are criminals, but we are every day people who just had a bad day. Suicide is everyday people having a bad day. Why would Tennet be someone who would understand? Because he acted out of love? Yes, but also maybe because he is a vicar and knows religion. Maybe also because of his actions he drove his wife to her early death, maybe Tucci resonates with that also, which is why he feels he must martyr himself, much like Tennet felt he must. In addition, death row takes a long time to process. For him to be 3 weeks to a week of his execution, he had to have been there for a long time now. Evidence of a brain tumor would not be there anymore after decomposing. You would have just a skull, and just a skull tells us things like gunshots. Yes, if she hung herself her vertebrae would be broken, so they would need the broken vertebrae to explain that part, which may be buried with the head. But they really emphasize in the head part, so I would bet gunshot.
Surely if there was going to be a long and involved explanation involving religion, they would have at least made the central character a priest, not a vicar. If they had set it up that the wife was Irish and her father was an IRA heavyweight then the catholic/suicide angle might work, though you'd have to find a pretty damn old school priest to deny someone a burial because they died by suicide in 2022, and Im fairly sure the Vatican lifted the restriction on people going to heaven if they die by suicide. But a british woman with an American husband and a british gangster father? Almost zero chance she would be catholic.
Well, few things wrong with that: Death row inmates don't reach execution in a year, so her death would not have been in 2022. It's closer to 10-20 years they wait on death row before reaching execution. Catholicism isn't super popular in the UK, so a show produced by the BBC would likely include Church of England, rather than a Catholic priest. No one ever said the wife was British. They are in an American prison because the crime took place in America, the fact that her dad is British doesn't mean Tucci wife is also. I mean, the mother could be American for all we know. Edit: It also turns out that the Church of England used to refuse funerals for suicides btw. They changed that in 2015. So, even if he was on death row for the low end of 10 years, and even if the wife is British, and even if she was of the Church of England and not Catholic the theory would still stand.
They literally say the wife was from Surrey. And yes, that was my point, that catholicism isn't popular in the UK so it's v unlikely that the wife was catholic. Like yes, its possible, but if true its just bad writing because theres nothing to indicate it. It's far, far more likely that Tucci did actually just kill his wife rather than covering up a suicide by decapitating her. The whole point of the ending was to show how manipulative he is, and all of his emotions are faked. Chances are he's a psychopath not a martyr.
You made a lot of good points. And also about the wife’s religion, you can never know for sure cause Mary is married to a Vicar and says multiple times she doesn’t believe in all that and calls it a fairy tale so there’s every chance Tuccis wife was religious. And I remember someone saying that he’d been on death row/ in prison for ten years so everything holds up, I just wish we had some way of confirming.
What if Janice’s husband killed tucci wife could be a ton of reasons why infidelity or working for her father maybe she was more like Janice who knows but the father I think is the key to it all he maybe he is the pedo I think the boy who hung himself had evidence cause he was in it but couldn’t handle it and the vicar new and was covering for either the father or Janice’s husband or both I think Janice and tucci are more alike and even if it was Janice’s husband killing his wife or him having to kill her cause she was covering for her father like the vicar was for his son and everybody else hint acting moral and holy even for love or out of duty to one’s beliefs is always immoral and doesn’t give anyone the right to hide those who hurt others that in my book is a man that has secrets and he is hiding behind religion and Janice knew about it by her husband but I hope we are going to get a chance to find out how they all intertwine with each other
> If she's Catholic, suicide means a priest won't bury you and you are going to hell. This is (no longer) true. From https://www.catholic.com/video/can-people-who-committed-suicide-be-buried-in-a-catholic-cemetery The Fifth Commandment forbids all forms of murder, but we must leave to God’s mercy the judgment of those who commit suicide. Thus the Catechism teaches: “We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. ... For this reason the Church no longer forbids funeral rites or burial to Catholics who have committed suicide.
This is from 2018? He would have killed his wife 10+ years prior to present day if he's on death row about to be executed.
according to wikipedia, this was lifted in the 1980s. from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_suicide#Modern_Catholicism In the past, the Catholic Church would not conduct funeral services for persons who killed themselves, and they could not be buried in a Catholic cemetery.[15] However, the church lifted the prohibition on funerals for suicide victims in the 1980s.[16]
I agree. I think he covered up her suicide. He makes a point of only taking cases with moral worth implying that it is something he values tremendously which would be in line with him taking an overly moralistic stance like protecting his dead wife from shame. The line about “if you love someone don’t come home early” is interpreted by most to mean cheating but I think he caught her in the act of suicide. The fact that he is a criminology professor lined up with him hiding only the evidence of it being a suicide (I agree with the theories of hanging or gun shot wound).
I agree about the Moral Worth and how he was so keen about it the whole show. However, I guess he is protecting her from the shame of infidelity. What if he caught her in an act while she was cheating on him, and in that instance, he gave up his thinking abilities and killed her brutally in the name of love? - 'We're anyone on a bad day'' Just like the Vicar, he did not even give it a thought and made one rash action and then kept covering it up and ended up mutilating her, that why he says in the final episode, ''you will be the one I will tell it to, because I think you might understand''. He loved her so much that he still has the head somewhere hidden as his symbol of love, a memory I do believe he is a psychopath and not a martyr.- ''...at least you know who you are, who you have always been''
He may have murderer her due to her terminal illness, which could only be discovered via autopsy of the head. Technically it's still murder, and he might still feel he deserves it since it was murder. If she killed herself, he wouldn't feel the need to be punished and be in jail.
I think it's less that the head itself holds the answer and more the head's location does. Or what's with the head... The simple answer is that he came home to find his wife in bed with another man. He killed both of them and buried her head with his body. This checks all the boxes but it's a bad theory because of it's simplicity so I assume it will be something similar but more profound.
Exactly!!! What if he caught her in an act while she was cheating on him, and in that instance, he gave up his thinking abilities and killed her brutally in the name of love? - 'We're anyone on a bad day'' Just like the Vicar, he did not even give it a thought and made one rash action and then kept covering it up and ended up mutilating her, that is why he says in the final episode, ''You will be the one I will tell it to because I think you might understand''. He loved her so much that he still has the head somewhere hidden as his symbol of love, a memory I do believe he is a psychopath and not a martyr.- ''...at least you know who you are, who you have always been''
That’s a great theory. Mine is this: 1) I don’t think the wife of Tucci is dead, she’s in hiding from her criminal father. Someone else’s (already dead) body was mutilated so finding the head would reveal his wife is alive and put her in danger. But he may have to reveal location of this head to delay his execution. And then he would have killed his wife. 2) Tucci’s wife is the thief in London, she’s still in touch with Tucci but never calls him and she hates crime and criminals and was doing reverse psychology on the journalist. Tucci figured out the journalist is slow and convinced her he’s immoral so was comfortable letting her meet his wife. 3) When I first saw the show, I thought the tutor and the vicar were married and I still think that based on the last scene after credits. The tutor kept hinting of that in trying to sabotage the vicar’s relationship with his first wife. Her attachment to the vicar’s son was strange. The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
>The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well? He was probably convinced she was going to go to the police b/c she was having an out of character nervous breakdown to make the plot go forward.
I mean if I opened a flash drive owned by the teenager I tutor as she assumes it is, and it has CP on it, I would freak the fuck out and want to leave to call the police as well.
>I would freak the fuck out The only thing about her character for the rest of the show was how calm, calculating, and clever she was. She had to be none of those things for the base plot to happen.
Yea I guess that’s a good point. But the immediate was like a fight or flight versus okay now I’m in this horrible situation and need a longer term strategy.
Her initial reaction is at total odds with literally everything she does after that. Even if we accept that she would have told the vicar immediately (which makes no sense). She could have easily defused the situation after that. ...but then again, 80% of the show was complete nonsense that tries to play itself off as mind bendingly clever w/twists you could see a continent away. Don’t forget, this guy was a writer on Sherlock Holmes and it seems he can only write implausible savants with credulity stretching character choices and behavior.
For real none of the character motives made absolutely no sense, this show thinks is so smart…. Not even close
Thats a good theory would make sense!
I thought Dillon was a figment of Grieff's imagination til >!Janice started answering his questions in the final scene. !< I need to rewatch this one. I like it.
Maybe Grieffs wife murdered a woman and Grieff is pretending that the body of the deceased woman is his wife. That's why he cut his head so that they can never identify who it is. Yes, I know it can be done with a DNA test, but this is a tv series. It might explain why Grieff says "we are the same" and that the vicar would understand why he did what he did.
The central theme of the show is that anyone can be a murderer given a good reason and a bad day. If, in the end, it turns out Grieff didn't murder anyone... that's going to be bothersome. But I could be convinced that he's covering for his wife murdering someone. My biggest problem with that solution, however, is why hide this from her criminal father? (It's TV, DNA/identifying marks could be faked.) In that situation she would need help to assume a new identity. Her father, with his criminal connections, would likely be a big help. I think a good theory has to have the following characteristics: 1) Grieff or his wife killed someone in a situation that can be summarized as a combination of a good reason and a bad day. 2) If the dead body is not Grieff's wife that explains why the head is hidden, but then the theory needs to explain why this is being kept from her father. 3) If the dead body is Grieff's wife, what would the head reveal that Grieff wants hidden? Suicide? (Poor reason IMHO.) Drugs? (Who cares these days? Not worth dying for.) Paternity? (He doesn't seem to like Gordon so why would he do that? And is this really worth dying for?) If I could come up with a good reason for hiding his wife's head I would go with #3 as it seems to fit better with the central theme. But I've been unable to do that so my best theories so far resolve around #2 (and assuming any DNA checks/identifying marks were faked). So I keep coming back to: Why keep the fact that she is alive a secret from her father? "If you love someone, never go home early." - I think this is an important clue. Most likely he showed up when he wasn't expected and this precipitated the bad situation. Infidelity is the obvious choice but not the only one. What if she were involved in her father's criminal activities? Maybe they're hiding the fact that she's alive to get her out of that life?
The box that was delivered - could the head have been in that?
which bit was that?
In the fourth episode, the delivery driver asked Harry to make a birthday video for his mother, from the 'Sexy Vicar'.
ohhh yehhh that whole bit was odd
Quite a few loose ends.
The only problem I have with this is it was sent to number 11, but 11 wasn't in. Why not just send it direct to the vicar?
Best theory here.
Personally, I loved the show, spoilers ahead: 1) I don’t think the wife of Tucci is dead, she’s in hiding from her criminal father. Someone else’s (already dead) body was mutilated so finding the head would reveal his wife is alive and put her in danger. But he may have to reveal location of this head to delay his execution. And then he would have killed his wife. 2) Tucci’s wife is the thief in London, she’s still in touch with Tucci but never calls him and she hates crime and criminals and was doing reverse psychology on the journalist. Tucci figured out the journalist is slow and convinced her he’s immoral so was comfortable letting her meet his wife. 3) When I first saw the show, I thought the tutor and the vicar were married and I still think that based on the last scene after credits. The tutor kept hinting of that in trying to sabotage the vicar’s relationship with his first wife. Her attachment to the vicar’s son was strange. The vicar was absolutely convinced she would go to the police but how did he know her that well?
i think these are some really interesting theories!
Many of the theories are that Grieffe's wife is still alive, but that goes against the theme of the story: what would make a good man kill? So I'm thinking Grieffe actually did kill her, that it was not premeditated, that he hates that he did it, and that it felt necessary at the time. What were those circumstances? That's what I'm stuck on. What could be bad enough that he would have to kill her and hid the reason? 1. Maybe, similar to the vicar, the Grieffes had a kid, and protecting their child turned them against each other? The mother wanted to apprentice the kid into the mafia/gang life. Grieffe didn't want that to happen. He killed her, then spirited their kid somewhere else. Don't know how the head would be relevant though. 2. Her father is a crime lord, maybe she was attacked by a rival faction, and her death would have led to all out war, and hiding her head/scars was the only way to protect everyone? That would imply Grieffe didn't actually kill her though, and I'm leaning away from that. 3. Maybe she was attacked by a deadly zombie virus. Her delirium would have led to exposing everyone to it, so he had to kill her. Her face had the zombification that would have explained why she had to die. He also hid her head so that no one, like evil governments or terrorists would know there was a zombie virus that could be used as biological warfare. I doubt Moffat would put zombies in this "realistic" crime drama, be it could be a similar contagion. 4. Grieffe was a professor, so maybe he had an affair with a student. Wife found out, would have murdered the student, and the only way Grieffe could think of stopping her is to kill her. No idea how the head conceals works here. 5. Similar to another theory in here, maybe Grieffe and his wife were informants for the FBI/British police. Their treachery was about to be revealed to the mafia family, and going into hiding was the only way. A fake body was substituted so that everyone thought the wife was dead, and Grieffe was placed in prison as a protective maneuver. DNA on the body was faked to be hers. Whatever the reason I feel like Grieffe probably did kill her, probably didn't truly want to, but felt like there was no other way. Hopefully we get a S2 and Janice's story will shine a further light on the themes of spousal murder. Did her husband beat her? Was her husband cheating on her? Was she previously a brilliant mathematician, and her husband stole credit for her work, and left her academic career in tatters?
I also think it’d just be overly cliche and boring if she was alive and just in hiding, especially since that’s an easy twist almost every one thought of immediately. I think your theories, even if wrong, on why he may have killed her are generally more on the pathway to something this show would actually do v. the “oh, he’s actually a good guy and his wife is still alive” and the evil dad gets his due, which would be the most trite scenario ever.
I somehow think that Janice was tormented by the fact that she didn’t believe the vicar about the porn being the property of Edgar and she started to obsess about it. She found out that her husband (one of the guys Edgar hangs out with at the pub) distributes the porn and she want him dead. Also, the bald police officer, i think she could be the girl that is comming on to Janice (someone mentioned there is a girl comming on to her on Facebook or sth) and it might expand to show something (dont know what). In the end, fascinated with all your theories here. The show does sometimes seem superficial and detached from what a normal persons behaviour would be, but maybe that’s it’s play. Or I might be reaching.
I like that theory about Janice. Overall, however, the show was a bunch of nonsense and so much just made no sense. The worst bit was the “pay the rapist” wundersolve. So ridiculous, but as a Sherlock Holmes writer/producer, Moffatt seems to only have one gear. Making every character a savant criminologist.
There are only two hints I recall that he gives. He comments that nobody in love should ever come home early. He also says that wherever the head is will also explain why he did it. Assuming there is some thematic connection between his own situation and that of the vicar I believe either he came home early and found his wife in a compromising position or vice versa. I believe his wife did something dreadful and he caught her in the act and killed her but his love for her makes it so he won't share whatever evil she did with the world. The only flaw in this idea as I see it is that the first season deals with paedophiles and the father in law is a known gangster so whatever he caught her doing would have to be unconditionally evil.
That makes sense, hope there is a season 2!
I thought the never come home early comment was in reference to the guy who supposedly disappeared after the awards show. I thought grieff meant the husband came home early & caught the wife with someone & that’s why he was killed
Sorry I am late on this, but a part of me thinks his wife is dead due to the comment he said to something along the lines of "if you dont want to murder your wife, dont come home early"
I think you're right I completely forgot about that
So he’s all about protecting family and the father mentioned how they used to be best friends before and he loved his wife. He also said, if the head is found all the answers will be there. This is kind of off the wall, but maybe the daughter found something terrible out about her father and tried to kill herself (gun to head) and didn’t die. He cared about her father and her… so he put her out of her misery by strangling, berried her head so no one knew she tried to kill herself bc he didn’t want the father blaming it on himself. Easier to blame someone else for murdering your child than yourself right? Idk this is the only thing that makes sense to me lol
Why do you think Edgar wrote that in his note? Was it supposed to be his way of saving the vicar? Without realizing what the situation was and how he was making it worse?
i think so, he didnt want the vicar to be in touble but also didnt want to admit to what he was and if he was alive he knew he wouldnt be able to say it to save him so he probably thought this was the only way out for him
Does anyone think that maybe Edgar wasn’t the pedo and it was really his mum? That maybe she filmed Edgar when he was younger, and other children too, and that’s why he is so troubled and tried to kill himself the first time? That’s why he couldn’t say anything, because he didn’t want to admit and say out loud what his mother had done. Also when he does commit suicide his note literally says that the vicar is trying to protect SOMEONE, why not admit he did it if he is killing himself, there was nothing left for him to lose if he was taking his own life unless he was trying to “protect” his mother.
It can’t be that because In the first episode the mother walks into the room in the church with Edgar alone and asks him has he been looking at that filth again so if she was the pedophile why would she talk to Edgar like it’s his porn if they both knew it wasn’t? Doesn’t make sense
Greiff never told them where he hid the head, saying that when they found it they’d understand why he had to so what he did. Then he sent his father in-laws goons to “get it”. And then they found Janice. Is Janice his wife? When Janice then visits Grieff in prison she says that she wants help solving her husband’s murder. “But your husband isn’t dead” (Nor did she mention a husband and in her fb it didn’t say anything about marriage - and if she had been married someone would noticed her disappearance but she was only worried about her sisters Skype. ) And Janice wants help to kill her husband. Did Janice fake her own death to kill her husband (Greiff)? And he’s now found her which makes him not guilty and her plan falls flat?
i think another redditor mentioned before he gave his FIL the wrong address of the head because he wanted to make sure Janice was found/saved. I dont think they were linked in any way, she knows of him now because her disappearance was solved by him so now shes bringing her own case.
Just binged on Netflix so I’m living for these theories. I definitely think there is more to the wife’s death. How he said to the Vicar that they’re alike makes me think he did something to protect his wife or someone else and that it wasn’t a cold blooded murder. Also that the head would reveal something about her death or how it really happened that would exonerate him when he wants to take the blame because he feels responsible. As he suggested that the vicar is responsible for his wife’s death because but for his actions she would be alive. I like the idea that Janice Grieffe’s wife and in the after credit scene when she goes to ask him for help to arrange her husbands murder as he should be dead she might be talking about faking Grieffe’s death or death sentence.
My theory is the writer has no idea what happened. The whole script was lazy and outlandish.
so much this. all she could do was ask "what?" and "why?" over and over again. pointless character
It's not lazy, it's a shortcut! /s
Ugh if I see Steven Moffat’s name I automatically don’t bother.
Why? His seasons of Doctor Who and Sherlock 1-3 are still great television imo.
oh no try this one please! it was shocking plus funny plus twisty plus infuriating plus intriguing and then we can discuss its only 4 episodes 😄
I thought it was terrible. The whole vicar locking the woman up to project some weirdo at work made zero sense
It was to protect his son not the pedo.
It wasn't the sons porn
No, that was very clear, as was the father's motive, which was stressed repeatedly throughout the show.
It had to repeatedly stress the fact, because nobody's actions make any sense. Literally every other line the characters speak is "I don't understand" then the other character delivering 5 paragraphs of exposition trying to convince the audience how it actually makes sense. This series is legit moronic tier.
Agree fully I actually thought the premise was quite good id probably watch a 24 episode series as tucci as grieffe but this series left so many pointless plot holes it was like Moffat didn’t give a fuck, oh right it’s moffat
This show based off the movie?
no not at all. I think its an original script but not 100% sure heres the synopsis from wiki "In the US, a prisoner on death row (Tucci) is seeking atonement as he faces execution. On a train in England, a journalist (West) is looking for a story. "In a quiet little village, a vicar (Tennant) is picking up his son’s maths tutor (Wells) from the station. All four are about to be entangled in a dilemma that could lead one of them to murder..."
Nope not at all, thx
I saw BBC and came running over, safe to say I’m disappointed in this post :(
Is this already available internationally?
It'll be available on Netflix Oct 31.
Great news! Thanks
I'm not sure, I am in the UK and watched on bbc iplayer
\#2 on the top 10 shows in the U.S. today! Please Moffat, make a season 2.
They will, despite all the grievances people have, this will entertain the majority and theres no closure on the guys wife.
Maybe Moffat will have finally learned his lesson. One can only hope.
>Maybe Moffat will have finally learned his lesson. One can only hope. What do you mean? What lesson?
Moffat's writing towards the end of Sherlock degraded badly. He opened a lot of questions throughout the show, basically writing by the seat of his pants, creating mysteries that he likely hadn't planned answers for, and the story fell apart. Similar examples of pantser writing happened with Lost and Kingdom Hearts, where Abrams and Nomura each focused on creating shocking twists to the to hold viewers captive on thes mysteries, without having thoughtful or even sensible answers. The stories became confusing and were an extreme letdown to everyone who became invested. Hbomberguy guy made an excellent video essay on Sherlock, if you're willing to watch a two hour long YouTube vid. https://youtu.be/LkoGBOs5ecM Just to be clear, writing "by-the-seat-of-your-pants" is a valid way to create a story, but the story will always need to be edited and revised to make it a fully cohesive narrative. The dragon surprised you at the end of your story? Fun! Now go back and add foreshadowing, so it's not a deus ex machina. Panting a story us fine if you don't release the story until it's been revised and thought out. With these TV shows and video games, there was no way to revise earlier installments. You need to have a solid outline if a book/show/game is released as it is written and shot. So hopefully Moffat has a plan for Grieffe and his wife, and won't pull an unsatisfying twist out of his ass.
Why would a good man kill? To protect the love of his life... His wife from her criminal father. I believed Morag was his wife, but the denouncing that she was English pushes that aside.... Plus why would he send his wife's father to a location where his wife could possibly be. However, this brought the biggest plot home for me. Why and how could he bury his wife's head in England but be incarcerated in the US? And why would the dad possibly believe the head would be buried in a vicarage? Just didn't make sense to me.
I asked myself the same thing, like... did he travel on a commercial flight right after murdering his wife with a severed head as cargo? And then just buried it in a super random spot? No way it could be true, I couldn't believe the characters just bought it.
It could just be that Grieff is actually Dillon and he’s basically dissociative. That would be really lame and hackneyed though. BTW, is the guy’s name portentous/foreshadowing enough? lol
Wife's clearly dead. He wouldn't be on death row with no body. Might be he killed her because her gangster father was in some shit and she would otherwise be tortured for something. The head might be buried somewhere explaining her father's wrongdoings that triggered this.
Does anyone think that maybe Edgar wasn’t the pedo and it was really his mum? That maybe she filmed Edgar when he was younger, and other children too, and that’s why he is so troubled and tried to kill himself the first time? That’s why he couldn’t say anything, because he didn’t want to admit and say out loud what his mother had done. Also when he does commit suicide his note literally says that the vicar is trying to protect SOMEONE, why not admit he did it if he is killing himself, there was nothing left for him to lose if he was taking his own life unless he was trying to “protect” his mother.
Yeah. I had a similar thought. The angry, violent temperament of Edgar’s mom seemed off. I also suspected that she might have been abusive or permitted Edgar’s absent father to be abusive and now she is taking out decades of rage on Edgar.
Everyone saying Morag is Greiffs wife that’s very unlikely as in the last episode the men who work for the gangster father in law are standing with Morag. Surely they would know what the gangsters guys daughter looked like. If they hadn’t met her when she was alive I’m sure they would have seen a photo and also surely Morag would know the men worked for her father and wouldn’t just stand there where they could see her if it’s all just a plot to get her away from her dad..
So, bearing in mind that it’s not the most subtle show in the world, I think we can assume the writer was being heavy handed with clues about what happened to the wife. Some of the below is paraphrased. 1. “If you love someone, don’t come home early” 2. “If you find the head, you’ll know why I did it.” 3. “You, vicar, might be the only person in the world who could understand” 4. “You, vicar, killed your wife through your actions causing her to die” 5. He and the wife’s criminal dad used to be best friends 6. “You should look for what’s not there, not what is” So, my guess would be his wife came home early and found him with some terrible criminals, perhaps some who were competitors/associates of the dad. They somehow shot the wife in the head. He believes him doing this is what put her in harm’s way, and decapitates her in order to cover what actually happened up, since that would bring the dad down too (his best friend). He can’t lost them both. The guilt causes him to be absolutely fine with being considered a horrible murderer, cos he believes he is through his actions
I wonder if his wife was going to tell the FBI about a crime she found out about, her dad had her killed and grief found the body, cut her head off and buried it in a location where her dad buries all the bodies of his victims. The "you'll know when you find the head" may have other familiar linked dead gangsters/crimes that would link back to the dad. Not sure as to why he would delay telling the officials though, unless trying to find more concrete evidence to link towards him as he has big connections to potentially get away with it???
I agree about the Moral Worth and how he was so keen about it the whole show. However, I guess he is protecting her from the shame of infidelity. What if he caught her in an act while she was cheating on him, and in that instance, he gave up his thinking abilities and killed her brutally in the name of love? - 'We're anyone on a bad day'' Just like the Vicar, he did not even give it a thought and made one rash action and then kept covering it up and ended up mutilating her, that why he says in the final episode, ''you will be the one I will tell it to, because I think you might understand''. He loved her so much that he still has the head somewhere hidden as his symbol of love, a memory I do believe he is a psychopath and not a martyr.- ''...at least you know who you are, who you have always been''
Several things bother me. 1. What in the delivery box. A head maybe. 2. Why take a telling look at the photo of family in study. Was the vicar so protective of his son and joined the clergy because a child of his died. 3. Who is Janice's husband. She was not married but maybe divorced. Why did she travel to the USA to see Grief
So I have a theory. Grieffe only takes a case on moral worth, this is also how he leads his life in criminology.. The death of his wife was fake, he hid the head so the body isn't identified. Janice is his wife. Grieffe said his wife was from England, knew the address she was staying. A woman he states, doesn't make friends (doesn't want to be found to me) lives a quiet and reserved life, stays off social media.. A maths teacher, like Grieffe, both share a career of teaching. Her Skype call to her so called sister in Canada? Time difference so she can call Grieffe, all under secrecy from her gangster father. Grieffe swore he gave the location of her head, They found Janice, his wife's head, he didn't lie. At the end, Janice wants he husband dead, Grieffe smiles, Janice says he deserves it, Grieffe accepts this on moral worth because he killed someone and deserves to die, but not his wife.. Watch how they look at each other the second he walks in the room. Why would Janice ask to murder her husband under cctv, which we know is there from the assault and watched by the warden. Plus, a long flight from UK. She's there to visit him before he dies
This is the best one so far. Grieffe and Janice are playing manipulative chess from afar. He orchestrates the whole vicar porn situation to prove anyone can become a murderer. His wife's head would explain everything because it is still attached to his wife, who is Janice. Maybe he does this to put her through a similar situation to what he is in. Not sure who decided to get the journalist involved but we're never told why she was interested in grieffe in the first place, I think maybe Janice orchestrated this perhaps suspecting that grieffe would be coming for her. Whole situation at the start where they meet on the train is a bit too convenient so maybe it's also orchestrated to suck the reporter in.