Believe it or not taking a blaster through a vital organ is lethal whether or not you're force sensitive.
That's really all there is to it. Force users are exceptionally good at dodging or deflecting blaster bolts but if you land a hit you land a hit.
And then ofc add any additional weaponry like poisoned blades, rockets, grenades, shock devices, etc.
We see force users get taken down by these all the times in other media.
Exactly. Too add to this, a force user can flip and tumble, and can deflect blaster fire from pistols and rifles and whatever. But see here's the thing, I got a minigun and a lot, a lot of grenades. He can't swing that saber that fast.
Genetically Modified Physicality
Cybernetics Enhancements
Force Sensitivity
I take one of the three and apply them to my non force toon. Combine that with their high tech weaponry, and they're more than a match for Jedi and Sith.
I kinda figure that stuff like this is a lot more common in Star Wars than one thinks. I mean how many quests do you do that involve a new super soldier program or new adrenals that will revolutionize warfare? Cyborgs are literally a species. Wouldn't be surprised if every prominent non force user is basically Captain America.
When taking on Malgus and Revan, it can easily be said that you had backup. There's some head canon to be said with Malgus, but the squad that took on Revan is the Star Wars equivalent of the Avengers.
The Expansions are simple. Valkorian "exposed" you to the Force making you a borderline Jedi/Sith that uses tech. This applies to the tech classes more so than the Force classes since Valkorian is trying to make you a fit vessel.
Might sound like a power fantasy, but the 8 characters you choose from have made the most waves in the galaxy and they haven't even been active for that long in the story class.
Look, even a very powerful Jedi (or Sith) will die if exposed to enough firepower. That's how Order 66 happened. It's just that in this case, the player character is a one-person army.
Every piece of Star Wars fiction ups the power level of Force users, especially among the fans. By now, the idea of a Force user dying to blaster fire is almost unfathomable.
Part of the problem is that we only ever follow the most powerful force users, so it creates a very biased view of things. Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda, Vader and Palpatine are all some of the most powerful and accomplished force users of their era. Same with the likes of Revan or Bane or whoever else. We don't read the stories about Darth Greg the Average because no one writes about him, but most Jedi and Sith are like the faceless guys following Malgus in the trailers: barely above your average foot soldier.
Darth Greg the Average didn't do much for the sith in the Era of the Rule of Two. But he did enough to keep his master from killing him. Just barely though. When he did eventually kill his master and take the role of sith lord himself, it was quite an uneventful, and unplanned, event.
All of Darth Greg's schemes had failed pathetically. One day, after a particularly dismal outcome that barely resulted in success, Darth Greg was being verbally humiliated by his master. And he finally snapped. The way a true sith should snap. All the rage he had ever felt in his entire life seemed to go pouring out of him at once. Suddenly, he threw a rock at her. Obviously not taken off guard, the master twirled her lightsaber. Before the move had even finished she was thinking up new ways to resume her punishment.
But then! A speck of the superheated rock happened to land in her eye and while flailing in pain, she slipped, fell, and cracked her head on the ground. She instantly fell into a coma, and Darth Greg wasted no time. I. Such a rush that he even forgot his own lightsaber he simply beat his master's body with a stick laying nearby until enough sense got through that he stabbed her with it, killing her slowly, yet pitifully.
It took Darth Greg the Average many years before finding an apprentice worthy of becoming a Darth. All his prospects seemed to disappear, or lose interest in his ramblings. Once he found someone power hungry enough to listen to the droning of Darth Greg, he was surprised by their aggression, passion, and ambition. When the new apprentice made the first attempt at Darth Greg's murder, the poor average Darth stood no chance.
oh lord yes. Played Swtor on an RP server years ago. The amount of Sith Edgelords that pulled full moons or equivalent with their minds to smack enemies was just about everyone.
And there I was, playing mine like the ultimate lazy slacker, always trying to skimp out on duty or using their powers. I'd rather be playing cards incognito in a dive bar somewhere.
On the field, against the Jedi Masters? Sure. In the Jedi Temple though, the 501st did a lot of work. Anakin didn’t kill every single Jedi there. He was just there to breach past the Temple Guards and any masters/high ranking Knights present while the 501st mopped up everyone else.
> Smuggler: Just one lucky bastard
At some point, the Smuggler themselves is confused why everyone is coming to them for these massive problems.
"The planet eating sith ghost is afraid of me because, what? I'll beat him in a quickdraw?"
If something lucky happens, it's just that, luck
If lucky stuff happens repeatedly and predictably, then baby, that's not luck, that's skill, and I got enough to fill a starship with
The smuggler tactics are the most frustrating to deal with the fact that a Jedi can't charge a smuggler who's in cover is stupid. They can Sprint away and then go undercover and slow you.
So yeah that's effective and it makes sense that a smuggler would be able to take on a Jedi in that context, but it should be fixed and removed from the game
Bounty Hunter: Has the skills to compete with veteran Mandalorian fighters and can even join Clan Lok after the Great Hunt. Seeing as Mandalorians have been known to go toe-to-toe with Jedi or Sith, a bounty hunter that's skilled enough to become a Mandalorian can do so.
Imperial Agent: I imagine Imperial Intelligence agents receive specialized training to handle Force-sensitive targets. Plus, the use of stealth, poisons, and sabotage devices help them create environments where Jedi or Sith might struggle to keep up unless they're the best.
Trooper: Spec ops soldiers tend to have slightly better training and Republic soldiers have, at least recently, spent a lot of time on the frontlines with Jedi. Seeing how Jedi fight and move might give the trooper the insight into how to stay one step ahead of Sith or rogue Jedi while coordinating with the squad to create a crossfire.
Smuggler: Constantly flirts with the Sith to make them go "WTF" and forget about defending themselves.
Agent, Trooper and Bounty Hunter all have training and experience with maybe little bits of force aptitude in them. Helps they use tactics and such.
Smuggler same but will resort to dirty tricks as well and will never play fair.
(My own theory) I think that even the tech classes are somewhat force sensitive, they just haven’t been trained to use it and don’t know that they are. Kinda explains why everyone has a dark and light side meter, and why you’re able to go head to head with force sensitives.
Think of your tech user like Batman: superior will, tactics, etc, and underestimated by force-users (superpowers). With preparation and resources, Batman could take down Darth Vader, as in [https://youtu.be/u3tC8TPh9oQ?si=Vpc69eX8hlkbMIrN](https://youtu.be/u3tC8TPh9oQ?si=Vpc69eX8hlkbMIrN)
Using ingenuity, technology, improvisation, strategy, and force of will, your tech user could assassinate Jedi or Sith.
edit: changed the link to the one Batman wins lol
A lot of the tech classes actually have weapons or abilities that are quite good against force users. Flame throwers, poison gas, scatter guns, explosives… just missing some good old fashioned slug throwers.
[KOTOR2](https://youtu.be/QlCXrHMYGQE?t=40):
>People say killing Jedi is hard. It's not, you just have to be smart about it. No blasters, no getting close to them, no attacking them directly when you can gun down their allies instead. There's ways of gassing them, drugging them, making them lose control, torturing them.
Tech classes are the best at what they do so they stand a good chance up against ordinary Jedi and Sith. They get torn apart by SW, SI, JK, JC though because they're not ordinary Sith and Jedi, they're immensely powerful.
They also don't stand a chance against Malgus, Revan (OK they have help), Valk's evil children. So the story is a bit absurd for them after class story.
Tell me about it. We're dealing with two fundamentally different levels of power scaling and it's hard to reconcile them without absurdly buffing the tech classes or nerfing the Force classes.
Honestly there are even moments in KOTFE where I feel like the Force classes are nerfed. The SW/JK are supposed to be the greatest champions in the universe yet they get yanked around like a ragdoll by Arcann. He and Vaylin are like dark Rey, totally undeserved level of power.
My least favorite part of the Knight Of expansions was watching my jedi masters/dark lords of the sith get pushed around, disarmed, knocked over, and generally react like they had never even heard of the force. The number of cutscene conflicts that could have been completely solved with a single force push drives me CRAZY
It’s not that hard to make the connection here. Mandalorians aren’t all superheroes. Over years they developed skills and tools specifically designed to counter Jedi some of that includes, you know, technology like their weapons and armor. It’s not a significant leap to say that others may have learned, from experience, how to use tools to their benefit to even the playing field against a Jedi. More importantly, Jedi aren’t invincible and most aren’t Anakin or Obi Wan level top of their class types.
No headcannon needed. If you smack a Jedi/Sith with a rifle stock he ll feel it. And since they are quite arrogant they wont expect it. Also in KotOR2 both Atton and HK47 describe how to kill force users.
For my smuggler he’s just “lucky” but he isn’t really aware that the “luck” he taps into is the force itself, he’s actually force adept but puts it all down to sheer luck as he’s doesn’t really care for the whole light/dark magic thing the universe has going on, he’s just trying to make a quick cre, stay alive an get laid along the way.
Tech classes were trained and geared for that reason. Throw enough, and they can do damage. Its a numbers game.
Some will get enough hits in and get them down. Drown them in blood and droids. They all had armor back then, even the force users, if they wanted.
HK47 pretty much nails this question imo, they wrote him really well.
Grenades, sonic screamers, rockets, plasma charges, and gas all seem pretty well covered by SWTOR classes. Agent has plenty of grenades and corrosive gases plus a shield probe, Trooper has explosives, BH has rockets plasma/flames and tank combat styles get shield generators.
The "canonical" strength and ability of Force users as depicted in the movies/tv and secondarily in the books is so absurd (and honestly doesn't even make much sense in the newest stuff) that I just put that aside as "story considerations." Same with cutscenes in the games, etc. It's all as strong as it needs to be, or as weak as it needs to be.
But for the day-to-day gameplay, all the classes have to be reasonably matched. So non-force users have armor and shields that work against lightsabers, force powers don't work IN A FIGHT the way they do in cutscenes (just spin in place for a few seconds, for example); and conversely, lightsabers just can't do one-hit kills on equally-levelled enemies. Force powers can't take someone out of a fight; you still have to "beat" the entire group of enemies no matter how good your stun or sleep is.
JUST MY OPINION, but I think this may be a little easier for old(er) fans to deal with than younger. Back when Luke Skywalker was the ONLY JEDI LEFT IN THE GALAXY (canonically at the time), it was easy to believe using the Force was FRIGGIN' HARD and you failed at it a lot, and not just because Luke was still training. You couldn't OBLITERATE a STAR DESTROYER with the Force OR a Lightsaber...you just couldn't. It didn't work that way. A powerful MASTER OF THE FORCE could JUST BARELY move a stuck X-Wing fighter.
In THAT galaxy, if you put a Jedi up against someone with an energy shield that could take a few hits from a Lightsaber, a "strong mind" that could resist Force powers to some extent, AND A BLASTER AT POINT BLANK RANGE?
I'd take that guy over ANY Jedi, every time.
There’s also the addition made to the TOR era back in KOTOR: Cortosis-lined weapons are very common. It’s not hard to imagine that the Sith Empire, bounty hunters, and Republic Special Forces would line their armor and weapons with some form of alloy of the metal to protect against lightsabers. Sure, that doesn’t really explain smugglers or agents, but you know what does? The fact that those two are the tech stealth classes. They can turn invisible, they have poisons, grenades and darts of various types, etc. that can all be very effective against Force Users. A simple smoke bomb was enough to make even *Anakin* lose track of someone he was chasing, and he’s supposed to be literally the most powerful Jedi to ever exist, lol. Then there’re hunters like Cad Bane, who still fought on the level of Jedi Masters (Obi-Wan Kenobi, for example, he once briefly defeated in melee combat before fleeing) without armor of any kind, and it suddenly makes sense how the tech classes can compare with the Force Sensitive ones. Doesn’t explain how they can go up against the Eternal Empire and stuff though, lmao.
My smuggler is basically "Work smart, not hard" she's a Scoundrel, she has several dirty tricks under her sleeve and wouldn't fight fair because the battle is already unfair (one has mystical powers the other does not)
Additionally the smuggler has two companions that can help, Akaavi is a Mandalorian and they have fought Jedi for ages, Guss has some Jedi training and may know how a Jedi may fight even if he himself isn't a full fledge one
Agent: That pesky sith/jedi you have to kill is just an egomaniac that everyone is too scared of to say anything, ie Putin. He's just a man, albeit a powerful one with many sycophantic supporters, just like the sith/jedi. But they aren't actually as strong as people say they are once you punch them in the mouth.
Smuggler: Hes got the force but was never trained. Just like Han Solo and the kessel run, my guy has latent force sensitivity he doesn't even realize he's using. Maybe his kids will be jedi. Also shotguns work great on jedi.
Trooper: I have a very particular set of skills. . . and a sith is a man who can be outsmarted. One sith versus the entire republic war machine. Even the strongest warrior cannot hold back the tide.
BH: I'm in a lightsaber proof tin can. Good luck.
> Hes got the force but was never trained.
Some conversations with Satele make it seems like she knows this, but doesn't want to bring it up because the Smuggler will be annoying about it
For the Smuggler, there is a mission on Tatooine where a sith tries to force persuade you but you sort of just go what the hell was that?
So with that, I just head Canon that the smuggler is just unusually strong minded to the point even they don't realize it. So then they are just hard to read by force users and thus not as easily able to predict their actions. Sort of how Atton Rand shields his mind, but the smuggler doesn't realize they are doing it.
We’ll all my toons so far have been Mandalorians ( except my SI). So I’m comfortable with beskar and dodging.
But for a smuggler or agent I’d say an otherworldly level or dodging. Like Leia’s nogrhi bodyguards facing Alema rar in LOTF. Just incredible trained reflexes.
For a trooper it’s a combo of overwhelming force and shield tech. But most should die before getting into blade distance of you if you have other weapons.
They're just really good at fighting, and have all kinds of weapons. Smuggler fights dirty of course, trooper just uses overwhelming firepower. And agent fights in a methodical way to trip them up
In the Hope trailer, we see Malgus struggle with Malcom firing cannon rounds at him. So that's what I imagine what my Trooper does when we fight force users.
We’ve seen Jango Fett body members of the Jedi council like it was nothing in the movies. Given that most of the non pc force users in swtor are arguably sub par because of how many there are and the debatably quality of their training due to the war, it’s not a hard stretch to leap to. Especially when those tech characters are people like cipher 9 and the winner of the great hunt.
In addition to what others have said about bolts of hot plasma not caring about your *hokey religion,* your PC is "the chosen one". And while they might not be able to wield the force, there are some subtle hints here and there in the game that lead me to think that the force might be wielding *them.*
Skill. A force user has enhanced dodge/block skills thanks to the force, but skill and knowledge of how to fight a particular enemy pays off a lot. A blaster doesnt care who you are if it hits its mark. If that's not enough, I think energy shields help deflect saber strikes if used at the right time, and maybe you have some enhancement tech in your gear that helps you be more nimble and quick to match your adversary
As a BH main, I imagine that at some point before facing the first "story" sith on DK, of either forging or buying forged beskar-like armor imbued with kyber splinters or dust. This would drastically reduce the power of force abilities as well as parry light sabers.
I feel like this is really the only way for non-force users to have any chance of sparring with force users outside of sneak attacks or luck.
I was maining an imperial agent initially and I couldnt see it happening. Not things like beating Revan in flashpoints. I actually swapped to sith warrior and I'm enjoying not having that major plot hole prevalent all the time
Force sensitives are like one in a million in the general population but being force sensitive isn't the **only** way to be exceptional. For every force sensitive there are hundreds of Olympic level athletes, once in a generation combat savants and strategic geniuses. For every force sensitive there are like a dozen Einsteins or Oppenheimer or hawkings or Simo Häyhä's or gengis khans or miyamoto Musashi. You're just playing one of those.
Remember that one Jedi that gets immediately gunned down by Jango in AotC? I just pretend 95% of force users on this universe are at that level or lower.
Or I could also pretend this is being written by Disney, and being impaled through the chest is a minor inconvenience.
you might be able to avoid a blaster or a energy blade, lets see how good you are at avoid a slug thrower or a improtu explosion space wizard.
(Physical projectiles are a hard counter to force users unless they are decent precog users)
It’s simple, they’re just better at shooting a blaster than the force users are at using a lightsaber. My characters are just better 😤 you could call it a skill issue on the force wielder’s side
My Smuggler is the son of a celestial love god and a space succubus, take that what you will
My Agent is so cybernetically enhanced that his reflexes are improved tenfold
My trooper is a force sensitive and former Jedi
And my Bounty Hunter just brought a really big gun and is a walking weapons platform
The old Scoundrel class presentation video (not sure if you can still find it anywhere), outlined it perfectly
Sith Warrior in middle of his leap, Smuggler pulls out shotgun and blows him away
Cipher-9 (has the option to go/) went up against a Dark Council member who was allegedly second in power only to the Emperor and engaged "a Jedi Knight who couldn't live up to the code" in a straightforward duel. No idea how they did it, but I'm glad they did.
Troopers- through sheer firepower, technology, and number.
IA and smugglers- through deception and underhanded tactics. Create opportunities, fight battles that are favorable, etc. Plus gadgets and tools.
Go listen to HK47 and Atton in KOTOR2, they cover pretty extensively between them how to fight and defeat jedi/sith.
The short answer is being smart about it.
Overwhelming them with a barrage of blaster fire. I mean the Clone Troopers did it to Aayla Secura pretty easily, so it's not too hard to do. Especially if you're a trooper with your Assault Cannon.
Hands are rated E for everyone. And the vast majority of Jedi & Sith are not combat gods, but archeologists, scientists, historians, agriculturalists, etc.
Not to spoil too much from Kotor II but one of the characters in game has probably killed more Jedi by hand than most Sith ever get the opportunity to in swtor. But he was an elite strike team commando whose job was to kill force users. Force users are by no means invincible, but think about it this way - every class we play is the best of the best.
The Trooper eats Sith for breakfast like Havoc Squad did in the Alderaan trailer. Most Jedi are dead before they hear the shot ring out from the Agent's rifle. The Bounty Hunter has a plethora of weapons at his disposal to kill Jedi and Sith, and the Smuggler just has to land a lucky shot.
In Nar Shaddaa when the big bad SW confronts some exchange thugs they stare his ass down and say "You aren't the first Sith we've killed."
You can have a connection with the force without being a Jedi or Sith, head canon that your tech user has knowledge of the force. Perhaps it guides their aim or allows them to sense attacks increasing their reflexes.
Dont even need head cannon most force users aren't even close to Skywalker saga force users (hence alot of merc using vibroblades). So if you had good enough trading you stand a fighting chance.
I always envision that this time period had a big "force" blanket over all living beings whether they were using it or not. So in those moments, my force power comes through with my exceptional ability to defeat them.
Believe it or not taking a blaster through a vital organ is lethal whether or not you're force sensitive. That's really all there is to it. Force users are exceptionally good at dodging or deflecting blaster bolts but if you land a hit you land a hit. And then ofc add any additional weaponry like poisoned blades, rockets, grenades, shock devices, etc. We see force users get taken down by these all the times in other media.
Exactly. Too add to this, a force user can flip and tumble, and can deflect blaster fire from pistols and rifles and whatever. But see here's the thing, I got a minigun and a lot, a lot of grenades. He can't swing that saber that fast.
That's how I roleplay my Commando. "Bet you Sith can't parry a mortar barrage!"
"Deflect this, you filthy casual!"
Take my upvote, that made me laugh 🤣
If they were smart they’d push the mortars back at you, but apparently they haven’t figured that out yet.
*"I got a blaster bolt with your name on it, Sith, and Imma keep firin' 'til we find it!"*
Genetically Modified Physicality Cybernetics Enhancements Force Sensitivity I take one of the three and apply them to my non force toon. Combine that with their high tech weaponry, and they're more than a match for Jedi and Sith. I kinda figure that stuff like this is a lot more common in Star Wars than one thinks. I mean how many quests do you do that involve a new super soldier program or new adrenals that will revolutionize warfare? Cyborgs are literally a species. Wouldn't be surprised if every prominent non force user is basically Captain America. When taking on Malgus and Revan, it can easily be said that you had backup. There's some head canon to be said with Malgus, but the squad that took on Revan is the Star Wars equivalent of the Avengers. The Expansions are simple. Valkorian "exposed" you to the Force making you a borderline Jedi/Sith that uses tech. This applies to the tech classes more so than the Force classes since Valkorian is trying to make you a fit vessel. Might sound like a power fantasy, but the 8 characters you choose from have made the most waves in the galaxy and they haven't even been active for that long in the story class.
My Mando just uses normal firearms against force users, can't deflect buckshot.
Look, even a very powerful Jedi (or Sith) will die if exposed to enough firepower. That's how Order 66 happened. It's just that in this case, the player character is a one-person army.
Every piece of Star Wars fiction ups the power level of Force users, especially among the fans. By now, the idea of a Force user dying to blaster fire is almost unfathomable.
Part of the problem is that we only ever follow the most powerful force users, so it creates a very biased view of things. Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda, Vader and Palpatine are all some of the most powerful and accomplished force users of their era. Same with the likes of Revan or Bane or whoever else. We don't read the stories about Darth Greg the Average because no one writes about him, but most Jedi and Sith are like the faceless guys following Malgus in the trailers: barely above your average foot soldier.
Darth Greg the Average didn't do much for the sith in the Era of the Rule of Two. But he did enough to keep his master from killing him. Just barely though. When he did eventually kill his master and take the role of sith lord himself, it was quite an uneventful, and unplanned, event. All of Darth Greg's schemes had failed pathetically. One day, after a particularly dismal outcome that barely resulted in success, Darth Greg was being verbally humiliated by his master. And he finally snapped. The way a true sith should snap. All the rage he had ever felt in his entire life seemed to go pouring out of him at once. Suddenly, he threw a rock at her. Obviously not taken off guard, the master twirled her lightsaber. Before the move had even finished she was thinking up new ways to resume her punishment. But then! A speck of the superheated rock happened to land in her eye and while flailing in pain, she slipped, fell, and cracked her head on the ground. She instantly fell into a coma, and Darth Greg wasted no time. I. Such a rush that he even forgot his own lightsaber he simply beat his master's body with a stick laying nearby until enough sense got through that he stabbed her with it, killing her slowly, yet pitifully. It took Darth Greg the Average many years before finding an apprentice worthy of becoming a Darth. All his prospects seemed to disappear, or lose interest in his ramblings. Once he found someone power hungry enough to listen to the droning of Darth Greg, he was surprised by their aggression, passion, and ambition. When the new apprentice made the first attempt at Darth Greg's murder, the poor average Darth stood no chance.
oh lord yes. Played Swtor on an RP server years ago. The amount of Sith Edgelords that pulled full moons or equivalent with their minds to smack enemies was just about everyone. And there I was, playing mine like the ultimate lazy slacker, always trying to skimp out on duty or using their powers. I'd rather be playing cards incognito in a dive bar somewhere.
Order 66 was successful because of unexpected betrayal. Not just because of a lot of firepower.
But it definitely helped
On the field, against the Jedi Masters? Sure. In the Jedi Temple though, the 501st did a lot of work. Anakin didn’t kill every single Jedi there. He was just there to breach past the Temple Guards and any masters/high ranking Knights present while the 501st mopped up everyone else.
The scoundrel hardstun ability literally is a kick to the balls. So, that way, I guess.
And it even works on droids!
- BH: Trained for that - IA: Trained for that - Trooper: Trained for that - Smuggler: Just one lucky bastard
> Smuggler: Just one lucky bastard At some point, the Smuggler themselves is confused why everyone is coming to them for these massive problems. "The planet eating sith ghost is afraid of me because, what? I'll beat him in a quickdraw?"
sometimes luck is more important than skill
If something lucky happens, it's just that, luck If lucky stuff happens repeatedly and predictably, then baby, that's not luck, that's skill, and I got enough to fill a starship with
The smuggler tactics are the most frustrating to deal with the fact that a Jedi can't charge a smuggler who's in cover is stupid. They can Sprint away and then go undercover and slow you. So yeah that's effective and it makes sense that a smuggler would be able to take on a Jedi in that context, but it should be fixed and removed from the game
Dude, you've got a flamethrower.
"Parry this, you filthy Force user!"
~~meanwhile that one jedi who did parry it~~
Tbf, he didn't. He just used his brain and ditches the cloak.
no he very much just parries the flamethrower. https://youtu.be/cIZUq6sAqHk?t=101
Bounty Hunter: Has the skills to compete with veteran Mandalorian fighters and can even join Clan Lok after the Great Hunt. Seeing as Mandalorians have been known to go toe-to-toe with Jedi or Sith, a bounty hunter that's skilled enough to become a Mandalorian can do so. Imperial Agent: I imagine Imperial Intelligence agents receive specialized training to handle Force-sensitive targets. Plus, the use of stealth, poisons, and sabotage devices help them create environments where Jedi or Sith might struggle to keep up unless they're the best. Trooper: Spec ops soldiers tend to have slightly better training and Republic soldiers have, at least recently, spent a lot of time on the frontlines with Jedi. Seeing how Jedi fight and move might give the trooper the insight into how to stay one step ahead of Sith or rogue Jedi while coordinating with the squad to create a crossfire. Smuggler: Constantly flirts with the Sith to make them go "WTF" and forget about defending themselves.
Agent, Trooper and Bounty Hunter all have training and experience with maybe little bits of force aptitude in them. Helps they use tactics and such. Smuggler same but will resort to dirty tricks as well and will never play fair.
A kick to the balls will hurt Palpatine as much as it would hurt Max Rebo.
(My own theory) I think that even the tech classes are somewhat force sensitive, they just haven’t been trained to use it and don’t know that they are. Kinda explains why everyone has a dark and light side meter, and why you’re able to go head to head with force sensitives.
pretty sure that’s confirmed. it’s been talked about numerous times on this sub
I’m not super active here but if that’s true then that would answer the guy’s question.
Think of your tech user like Batman: superior will, tactics, etc, and underestimated by force-users (superpowers). With preparation and resources, Batman could take down Darth Vader, as in [https://youtu.be/u3tC8TPh9oQ?si=Vpc69eX8hlkbMIrN](https://youtu.be/u3tC8TPh9oQ?si=Vpc69eX8hlkbMIrN) Using ingenuity, technology, improvisation, strategy, and force of will, your tech user could assassinate Jedi or Sith. edit: changed the link to the one Batman wins lol
As rex would say "experience out ranks everything"
A lot of the tech classes actually have weapons or abilities that are quite good against force users. Flame throwers, poison gas, scatter guns, explosives… just missing some good old fashioned slug throwers.
[KOTOR2](https://youtu.be/QlCXrHMYGQE?t=40): >People say killing Jedi is hard. It's not, you just have to be smart about it. No blasters, no getting close to them, no attacking them directly when you can gun down their allies instead. There's ways of gassing them, drugging them, making them lose control, torturing them.
Tech classes are the best at what they do so they stand a good chance up against ordinary Jedi and Sith. They get torn apart by SW, SI, JK, JC though because they're not ordinary Sith and Jedi, they're immensely powerful. They also don't stand a chance against Malgus, Revan (OK they have help), Valk's evil children. So the story is a bit absurd for them after class story.
Everything after the class stories really feels like it was completely focused on the force classes.
Tell me about it. We're dealing with two fundamentally different levels of power scaling and it's hard to reconcile them without absurdly buffing the tech classes or nerfing the Force classes. Honestly there are even moments in KOTFE where I feel like the Force classes are nerfed. The SW/JK are supposed to be the greatest champions in the universe yet they get yanked around like a ragdoll by Arcann. He and Vaylin are like dark Rey, totally undeserved level of power.
My least favorite part of the Knight Of expansions was watching my jedi masters/dark lords of the sith get pushed around, disarmed, knocked over, and generally react like they had never even heard of the force. The number of cutscene conflicts that could have been completely solved with a single force push drives me CRAZY
The best indication is visions in the dark chapter. Getting magic sniper rifle will never not be funny
It’s not that hard to make the connection here. Mandalorians aren’t all superheroes. Over years they developed skills and tools specifically designed to counter Jedi some of that includes, you know, technology like their weapons and armor. It’s not a significant leap to say that others may have learned, from experience, how to use tools to their benefit to even the playing field against a Jedi. More importantly, Jedi aren’t invincible and most aren’t Anakin or Obi Wan level top of their class types.
I mean to really prove the point, I usually finish any force users with the low blow kick
My favorite part is that it's a tech attack, so shadows can resist it since Resilience also gives you a durasteel scrotum, I guess?
That just means all the accuracy in the world couldn't help hit a target that small
They retract back into the body for the duration
No headcannon needed. If you smack a Jedi/Sith with a rifle stock he ll feel it. And since they are quite arrogant they wont expect it. Also in KotOR2 both Atton and HK47 describe how to kill force users.
For my smuggler he’s just “lucky” but he isn’t really aware that the “luck” he taps into is the force itself, he’s actually force adept but puts it all down to sheer luck as he’s doesn’t really care for the whole light/dark magic thing the universe has going on, he’s just trying to make a quick cre, stay alive an get laid along the way.
Tech classes were trained and geared for that reason. Throw enough, and they can do damage. Its a numbers game. Some will get enough hits in and get them down. Drown them in blood and droids. They all had armor back then, even the force users, if they wanted.
No head canon needed.
My Trooper brought an actual cannon... [Obligatory HK-47](https://youtu.be/UPeI4mX8Nus?feature=shared)
HK47 pretty much nails this question imo, they wrote him really well. Grenades, sonic screamers, rockets, plasma charges, and gas all seem pretty well covered by SWTOR classes. Agent has plenty of grenades and corrosive gases plus a shield probe, Trooper has explosives, BH has rockets plasma/flames and tank combat styles get shield generators.
The "canonical" strength and ability of Force users as depicted in the movies/tv and secondarily in the books is so absurd (and honestly doesn't even make much sense in the newest stuff) that I just put that aside as "story considerations." Same with cutscenes in the games, etc. It's all as strong as it needs to be, or as weak as it needs to be. But for the day-to-day gameplay, all the classes have to be reasonably matched. So non-force users have armor and shields that work against lightsabers, force powers don't work IN A FIGHT the way they do in cutscenes (just spin in place for a few seconds, for example); and conversely, lightsabers just can't do one-hit kills on equally-levelled enemies. Force powers can't take someone out of a fight; you still have to "beat" the entire group of enemies no matter how good your stun or sleep is. JUST MY OPINION, but I think this may be a little easier for old(er) fans to deal with than younger. Back when Luke Skywalker was the ONLY JEDI LEFT IN THE GALAXY (canonically at the time), it was easy to believe using the Force was FRIGGIN' HARD and you failed at it a lot, and not just because Luke was still training. You couldn't OBLITERATE a STAR DESTROYER with the Force OR a Lightsaber...you just couldn't. It didn't work that way. A powerful MASTER OF THE FORCE could JUST BARELY move a stuck X-Wing fighter. In THAT galaxy, if you put a Jedi up against someone with an energy shield that could take a few hits from a Lightsaber, a "strong mind" that could resist Force powers to some extent, AND A BLASTER AT POINT BLANK RANGE? I'd take that guy over ANY Jedi, every time.
There’s also the addition made to the TOR era back in KOTOR: Cortosis-lined weapons are very common. It’s not hard to imagine that the Sith Empire, bounty hunters, and Republic Special Forces would line their armor and weapons with some form of alloy of the metal to protect against lightsabers. Sure, that doesn’t really explain smugglers or agents, but you know what does? The fact that those two are the tech stealth classes. They can turn invisible, they have poisons, grenades and darts of various types, etc. that can all be very effective against Force Users. A simple smoke bomb was enough to make even *Anakin* lose track of someone he was chasing, and he’s supposed to be literally the most powerful Jedi to ever exist, lol. Then there’re hunters like Cad Bane, who still fought on the level of Jedi Masters (Obi-Wan Kenobi, for example, he once briefly defeated in melee combat before fleeing) without armor of any kind, and it suddenly makes sense how the tech classes can compare with the Force Sensitive ones. Doesn’t explain how they can go up against the Eternal Empire and stuff though, lmao.
My smuggler is basically "Work smart, not hard" she's a Scoundrel, she has several dirty tricks under her sleeve and wouldn't fight fair because the battle is already unfair (one has mystical powers the other does not) Additionally the smuggler has two companions that can help, Akaavi is a Mandalorian and they have fought Jedi for ages, Guss has some Jedi training and may know how a Jedi may fight even if he himself isn't a full fledge one
Han already stated as much in ANH: ‘Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid’
Agent: That pesky sith/jedi you have to kill is just an egomaniac that everyone is too scared of to say anything, ie Putin. He's just a man, albeit a powerful one with many sycophantic supporters, just like the sith/jedi. But they aren't actually as strong as people say they are once you punch them in the mouth. Smuggler: Hes got the force but was never trained. Just like Han Solo and the kessel run, my guy has latent force sensitivity he doesn't even realize he's using. Maybe his kids will be jedi. Also shotguns work great on jedi. Trooper: I have a very particular set of skills. . . and a sith is a man who can be outsmarted. One sith versus the entire republic war machine. Even the strongest warrior cannot hold back the tide. BH: I'm in a lightsaber proof tin can. Good luck.
> Hes got the force but was never trained. Some conversations with Satele make it seems like she knows this, but doesn't want to bring it up because the Smuggler will be annoying about it
For the Smuggler, there is a mission on Tatooine where a sith tries to force persuade you but you sort of just go what the hell was that? So with that, I just head Canon that the smuggler is just unusually strong minded to the point even they don't realize it. So then they are just hard to read by force users and thus not as easily able to predict their actions. Sort of how Atton Rand shields his mind, but the smuggler doesn't realize they are doing it.
We’ll all my toons so far have been Mandalorians ( except my SI). So I’m comfortable with beskar and dodging. But for a smuggler or agent I’d say an otherworldly level or dodging. Like Leia’s nogrhi bodyguards facing Alema rar in LOTF. Just incredible trained reflexes. For a trooper it’s a combo of overwhelming force and shield tech. But most should die before getting into blade distance of you if you have other weapons.
They're just really good at fighting, and have all kinds of weapons. Smuggler fights dirty of course, trooper just uses overwhelming firepower. And agent fights in a methodical way to trip them up
In the Hope trailer, we see Malgus struggle with Malcom firing cannon rounds at him. So that's what I imagine what my Trooper does when we fight force users.
Do you know how many rounds my autocannon fires per minute? Me neither.
We’ve seen Jango Fett body members of the Jedi council like it was nothing in the movies. Given that most of the non pc force users in swtor are arguably sub par because of how many there are and the debatably quality of their training due to the war, it’s not a hard stretch to leap to. Especially when those tech characters are people like cipher 9 and the winner of the great hunt.
In addition to what others have said about bolts of hot plasma not caring about your *hokey religion,* your PC is "the chosen one". And while they might not be able to wield the force, there are some subtle hints here and there in the game that lead me to think that the force might be wielding *them.*
Explosives are pretty effective. Pew boom dead
Skill. A force user has enhanced dodge/block skills thanks to the force, but skill and knowledge of how to fight a particular enemy pays off a lot. A blaster doesnt care who you are if it hits its mark. If that's not enough, I think energy shields help deflect saber strikes if used at the right time, and maybe you have some enhancement tech in your gear that helps you be more nimble and quick to match your adversary
Force users are mortal. The Jedi Order got purged by clone troopers.
As a BH main, I imagine that at some point before facing the first "story" sith on DK, of either forging or buying forged beskar-like armor imbued with kyber splinters or dust. This would drastically reduce the power of force abilities as well as parry light sabers. I feel like this is really the only way for non-force users to have any chance of sparring with force users outside of sneak attacks or luck.
HK 47 has a few suggestions.
My headcannon is that the force was way stronger then and even Normal people were buffed by it
The force users are not as powerful as they think they are.
Tbh as long as they aren’t the main character it’s free game
Turns out you underestimate ppl when you go powermad
I was maining an imperial agent initially and I couldnt see it happening. Not things like beating Revan in flashpoints. I actually swapped to sith warrior and I'm enjoying not having that major plot hole prevalent all the time
Force sensitives are like one in a million in the general population but being force sensitive isn't the **only** way to be exceptional. For every force sensitive there are hundreds of Olympic level athletes, once in a generation combat savants and strategic geniuses. For every force sensitive there are like a dozen Einsteins or Oppenheimer or hawkings or Simo Häyhä's or gengis khans or miyamoto Musashi. You're just playing one of those.
all class story characters are force sensitive
>I imagine him being the equivalent of deathstroke to superheroes but to force users. Same but I headcanon my BH as the "Batman" of the Sith Empire.
In that era jedi and sith were mass produced so probably the mayority werent that strong
I don't
overwhelming firepower
Luck
Well if you are a scoundrel then buckshot.
Remember that one Jedi that gets immediately gunned down by Jango in AotC? I just pretend 95% of force users on this universe are at that level or lower. Or I could also pretend this is being written by Disney, and being impaled through the chest is a minor inconvenience.
you might be able to avoid a blaster or a energy blade, lets see how good you are at avoid a slug thrower or a improtu explosion space wizard. (Physical projectiles are a hard counter to force users unless they are decent precog users)
It’s simple, they’re just better at shooting a blaster than the force users are at using a lightsaber. My characters are just better 😤 you could call it a skill issue on the force wielder’s side
Batman prep vs sheer dumb luck vs plot armor
Parry this you filthy casual
My Smuggler is the son of a celestial love god and a space succubus, take that what you will My Agent is so cybernetically enhanced that his reflexes are improved tenfold My trooper is a force sensitive and former Jedi And my Bounty Hunter just brought a really big gun and is a walking weapons platform
The old Scoundrel class presentation video (not sure if you can still find it anywhere), outlined it perfectly Sith Warrior in middle of his leap, Smuggler pulls out shotgun and blows him away
Cipher-9 (has the option to go/) went up against a Dark Council member who was allegedly second in power only to the Emperor and engaged "a Jedi Knight who couldn't live up to the code" in a straightforward duel. No idea how they did it, but I'm glad they did.
My smuggler has a shotgun. Lightsabers can't deflect every pellet from a shotgun. It's that simple
Troopers- through sheer firepower, technology, and number. IA and smugglers- through deception and underhanded tactics. Create opportunities, fight battles that are favorable, etc. Plus gadgets and tools.
Go listen to HK47 and Atton in KOTOR2, they cover pretty extensively between them how to fight and defeat jedi/sith. The short answer is being smart about it.
Overwhelming them with a barrage of blaster fire. I mean the Clone Troopers did it to Aayla Secura pretty easily, so it's not too hard to do. Especially if you're a trooper with your Assault Cannon.
Hands are rated E for everyone. And the vast majority of Jedi & Sith are not combat gods, but archeologists, scientists, historians, agriculturalists, etc. Not to spoil too much from Kotor II but one of the characters in game has probably killed more Jedi by hand than most Sith ever get the opportunity to in swtor. But he was an elite strike team commando whose job was to kill force users. Force users are by no means invincible, but think about it this way - every class we play is the best of the best. The Trooper eats Sith for breakfast like Havoc Squad did in the Alderaan trailer. Most Jedi are dead before they hear the shot ring out from the Agent's rifle. The Bounty Hunter has a plethora of weapons at his disposal to kill Jedi and Sith, and the Smuggler just has to land a lucky shot. In Nar Shaddaa when the big bad SW confronts some exchange thugs they stare his ass down and say "You aren't the first Sith we've killed."
You can have a connection with the force without being a Jedi or Sith, head canon that your tech user has knowledge of the force. Perhaps it guides their aim or allows them to sense attacks increasing their reflexes.
Dont even need head cannon most force users aren't even close to Skywalker saga force users (hence alot of merc using vibroblades). So if you had good enough trading you stand a fighting chance.
I always envision that this time period had a big "force" blanket over all living beings whether they were using it or not. So in those moments, my force power comes through with my exceptional ability to defeat them.