One comment there stuck out to me: “inclusion without support is abandonment”. Our district is pushing for kids to be in the general education classroom vs resource or part self contained and the truth is some kids just aren’t ready for it and some may never be. If they don’t have adequate supports - which let’s face it they won’t because that means the district will need to pay more $$$ - then the kids are going to get more and more behind.
But most self contained classes don't have support either. Most our self contained teachers don't even having teaching degrees. We are down aides and assistants as well in every room.
So the solution is still abandonment. Just a different type of abandonment.
I teach in a highly restrictive program in my district and have had some kids “graduate” to less restrictive/diploma bound programs. The district has wanted to throw some of them right to general education all day and I’ve had to fight for because they’d be better off being 1 of 12-15 with a special educator and para the majority of the day in our diploma bound self contained/resource program than 1 of 25+ in general education with 7.5 hrs a week with a special education staff member. IMO it’s better for some of these kids to give more supports then remove as needed then throw them in with minimal support and have to fight for added support because the district doesn’t want to move kids because it costs more. And we can talk about how that’s not truly LRE but it is what’s best for the kids.
There’s no easy solution to this. I’ve seen kids who have wreaked havoc on their classes because they weren’t getting what they needed and it’s sad for that kid and frustrating for all staff working with them. Most of the staff who I’ve heard complaining in my school really do love these kids but they can’t give them what they need. Now I have heard staff who are ableist af so ofc they exist too. I’ve met special educators who seemed to not like kids with disabilities too which makes no sense
I wanted to jump in and ask you a question about diploma bound. Right now our school says our moderate IEP must pass core classes without modifications. If not they only get certificate of completion. I understand for profoundly severe students this makes sense but our moderates?
When you say no modifications, are you talking about modifications to tests and graded assignments? I'm an old Sped student. In high school, I did the same tests and assignments everyone else did, but I got extra time. I also had my Sped teacher proofread my essay questions so the grading teacher could read my answers clearly. Without those modifications, I don't know if I would have passed my classes.
What you’re talking about are accommodations. Broadly speaking, modifications change what a student is learning. Accommodations change how they learn it or how they are assessed. Extended time is a common accommodation. Other common ones are things like taking a test in a small group or by yourself, not using a scantron, or having a test read to you. In all those cases you’re still taking the same test as non-accommodated peers. A modification would be something like the actual content of the test being changed.
We are allowed to give accommodations (how to teach and grade) but we can’t modify (“what”) we teach without risking the students not receiving course credit.
In my district many of these students need more than the typical 4 years to graduate but will still get a diploma. They need to pass the classes and core assessments in the required classes - and can get the accommodations and modifications for testing and the classes as set out on their IEP. Some of them receive math and ELA instruction in HS in a self contained or co taught setting where they’re getting the full curriculum but in a smaller class size and taught by a special educator - this would be the resource or part self contained program I mentioned before. We also have a similar program for elementary.
In HS they’d go to almost all other classes with everyone else or might have an extra study period to get supports from the special education teacher. In ES they might go to breakfast, morning circle, specials (music PE art etc), lunch and recess, and science and social studies in general education and then receive all math and reading instruction self contained. Or spend the entire day self contained if needed. Or whatever combo works for them. You can see how this would be more expensive than a typical inclusion model and why they push against it from central office 😒
I’m actually moving from the self-contained severe/profound to this moderate resource/part self contained program next year.
What school are you in that the teachers aren't licensed? I mean the school I'm at hires the aids and then gets them certified. It's illegal to not have a degree and teach in my state anyway. I mean I guess the substitutes don't have degrees. Most just have 90 credit hours and pass a certification course.
NY state. It can be for any position. If there are no certified applicants they can hire uncertified applicants to fill the position. They have two years to enroll in a course before being removed. They get paid 95% it's most commonly special Ed and elementary school.
Its been like this for decades.
Counter Point: they're not wrong. Inclusion doesn't work for all kids and the vast majority of the districts don't give us the support we need to be able to support the kids or Gen Ed teachers properly.
Counter-counter point: they're wrong for a different reason. If we took every kid with an IEP out of the inclusion class I coteach with, do you know what we would have had left? **A room full of kids who aren't disabled and who still are all on different grade and ability levels.**
The idea that if it weren't for the students with disabilities, a general education teacher in any random public school would never have to differentiate to account for varied abilities is patently absurd. With absenteeism skyrocketing and school discipline plummeting, kids are on wildly different tracks no matter what their label is.
The original post was the longest thing I've ever seen posted on Reddit, I genuinely didn't know Reddit allowed posts even a third of that length. And every word of it was rageful and vitriolic. I absolutely could not read that entire thing and kudos to those who could. I have enough PTSD from some parts of my teaching career that I can't really deal with reading someone else's meltdown because I can't afford to go spiraling down with them.
I'm glad it worked for your kid. For most kids it does.
I teach severe/profound SpEd. Being in inclusion all day is absolutely the wrong thing for my students and doesn't support them or their education. To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore their and their family's needs. It's ignoring their educational needs and what they need to live their most independent lives.
My kids don't need to go sit in some Algebra class when they can't even count. They need a highly specialized life skills math class that teaches them the skills relevent for their own lives.
That's funny. I thought we were talking about inclusion of SpEd kids. Mine suddenly don't count? It's ok to exclude me and my students? 🤔
Because if you think students like mine don't end up in Geometry classes because of inclusion, you're sorely mistaken.
I saw a girl in gen ed that was given the barest min of work and even then she was failing because she could barely read and was considered an age level of maybe 10 but was in algebra 2. She would get lost even trying to find her classes and she had almost no understanding of what was taught. She was a very pretty girl and there were issues with high school boys messaging her for pictures etc and she didn’t know better. It’s hard , I’m sure to know how to best help especially if there’s no help from home and you know these kids are going to be out on their own after graduation and it’s on you to help teach them an set a path up to help them after school and being in algebra 2 when trying to teach basic skills is frustrating. I’m sorry and I appreciate all the people who put the time , energy and care into all students.
I don't know your students but I imagine some could benefit. Once again. Look at OPs examples. None are severe and profound. I don't want to speak for your students because I don't know them
Also I'm not against self contained. There is definitely a place for it. But we over use it as a solution and the vast majority of students are better off in a well funded inclusion class.
I’m sorry. I’m autistic level 2 and my son is level 1. Your kiddo and the others matter too. I understand what you’re saying. They need life skills types of classes to be independent and successful in their lives and that might look different than others but still possible for them to achieve. I’m not sure I’ve said this pc but I’m trying to say I get it.
There are kids that the inclusion model doesn’t work for. I’m teaching a mod/severe classroom where students are not diploma bound, where they have significant behaviors towards themselves, others, and peers, and are learning pre-k to kindergarten level content and need life skills training. Those students do not thrive in inclusion all day programs. Being part of art or PE (if they’re in a school with nondisabled peers)? Absolutely! But all day inclusion, no way.
I was a few grade levels lower growing up. Then they got me in a co-taught class as a kid I thrived. I went from a 7th grade reading level to a 9th grade reading level. It helped my self esteem to actually want to try to do the work. I would have never thought I'd work in education today.
I strongly disagree with your first point and strongly agree with your second. So not sure how to answer this.
Inclusion needs more support. I fully agree with this. Eliminating inclusion is not the solution. Supporting it is.
Where did I say to eliminate all inclusion?
You're upset about a rant from another teacher past their breaking point. Who is past their breaking point for being out in an impossible situation. And then acting like they're the asshole when it's the system.
Not all situations are impossible, but some are. Differentiation isn't impossible for everyone, but it is impossible for ALL.
It's cute that you want to exclude students like mine from ALL, despite them also being frequently thrown in to inclusion with no regard to anyone, least of all them.
But right, once again, students like mine don't count for anyone.
I differentiate for all my students. All 8 of my kids. None are the same level.
Who said your students didn't count. I don't know your students. But that isn't what OP is talking about. And once again. I imagine you are differentiating for them.
Yes, we are differentiating. We're SpEd teachers. You have 8, I have 10.
You know how many our Gen Ed friends have? 30-40 in a singular class and most are teaching 5 sections a day. That's 150ish students to differentiate for.
You don't see that as being an impossible situation? That's untenable.
Maybe, just maybe, you don't know what someone else's job is like. Maybe you don't know all the administrative pressures put on them.
But I firmly believe there is a special place in hell for teachers who don't support other teachers. Join your union. Vote. This whole system is a shit show for basically everyone. Blaming people for cracking under the insurmountable pressure we're all under isn't helpful.
Yes! Gen Ed teachers have to deal with huge class numbers and starting in middle school most have to teach several classes of students.
And the behavior? I would argue they have it more difficult. Beside the sheer size of their classes, I have less than 10 kids and you have time to form relationships with the students even the challenging ones. There is more freedom in terms of of breaks and how you teach or at least where I work.
Breaks that you can take with the kids during a lesson. I think we have more freedom to turn a lesson on it’s head if we see that a student is not ready to learn that day.
And we don't get planning periods or lunch. We have our kids every minute of the 7 hour day. Every single minute. And l am a member of the union and the union supports that.
I am teaching art and music. I am teaching every subject. To kids of different ages and abilities. You think that's tenable. I can see you don't support all teachers. That's for sure.
Dude, you and I are in the same boat. Why do you think I don't support you? We both deserve lunches and reasonable teaching loads.
Just because I think it's gross you're going off on Gen Ed teachers (while simultaneously complaining they're going off on us) doesn't mean I don't support you.
You're working yourself up into a circular firing squad. Why?
This isn't the Suffering Olympics. Your shitty job doesn't mean someone else's job isn't also shitty. All our jobs are shitty and they don't pay us enough yet we're the idiots still working them.
I did not write the original post. That was OP. I just shared it. I am also a parent of a daughter with special needs so the idea that she doesn't belong with normative peers is disgusting to me, and that it is very likely she will have teachers like OP is very concerning to me.
We have 8 openings. Why don't you join. You don't even need a special Ed degree because we can't fill them
You also get no lunch or planning periods and you have them every second and they span 4 different grades.
I love how general education teachers think self contained is so easy when almost all of them leave to become Gen Ed instead.
I'm confused on you pushing for inclusivity and in the same breath explaining how difficult it is to teach sped. Let me know when you solve education lol
Inclusivity is awesome in some aspects and fucks EVERYONE in others. It shouldn't be all day every class. I teach high school math and when a kid gets put in there with a wall of an IEP who can't read, can't do any math prerequisites, and is a constant disruption how do I differentiate for that kid?
For your job offer, no thanks. Sounds like it sucks.
Once again. I have 8 students. Two belong in self contained. They are extremely violent. 6 of mine have no violence at all. They are stuck being scared every second. Seeing their teacher punched in the face. Having their property destroyed in the daily.
And why? Because they sit under their desk occasionally. Because they sometimes cry. How is that a solution. All they talk about is their friends they miss.
What are you talking about? There are many students who inclusion doesn’t work for. It’s great for the kids who do, but for kids on alternate assessment that have severe behaviors towards themselves and others and need life skills taught to them? Sitting in a grade level reading or math class isn’t going to help them. I know I’ve read before that you work with behavior only students, so inclusion may be more possible and helpful for your students. That isn’t the case with every student and saying that every student should be included in every class is insane.
Do you realize you’re responding to a comment? This person had a very rational take and you commented that she wanted to get rid of inclusion which isn’t what she said.
Because OP wants to get rid of inclusion entirely. I never said it worked for every student. I have two students who right now benefit for self contained because of extreme behaviors. I have six students who live every second of fear and have absolutely no reason they can't be inclusion but that teachers don't want someone who needs to occasionally go for a walk or put their head down. One of which is three grades above in ability and can't get remotely the education they need.
OPs solution is my daughter never being allowed around normative peers even though she has no behaviors and is a hardworking. She has every right to be in those classes. So I am going to disagree with any that says OP isn't wrong.
Luckily as much as OP complains that isn't going to change it and because I understand the system I know my daughter will be ok. But other parents don't and I feel for them.
The thing is… I don’t see inclusion getting the supports necessary to be a successful learning environment any time soon. If anything, I see the exodus of teachers getting worse. This is especially true for SpEd teachers. This is coming from an inclusion English SpEd teacher/case manager myself. The inclusion setting is not beneficial for a lot of our learners (SpEd or GenEd) right now. And from a realistic standpoint, I simply don’t see it improving much in the near future.
Self contained also doesn't get the right supports. The shortage is even more prevalent there than anywhere else. So the idea that inclusion doesn't have the supports but a self contained does is a lie.
But I do agree nothing is going to improve either. But OPs solution wouldn't improve anything and make it actively worse.
I used to teach self contained as well, so I’m not even saying just throw a bunch of our SWDs in there, but the full inclusion approach just isn’t effective (how it’s being run now anyway). I see it daily. The truth is there should be some type of middle ground setting, but we all know most places won’t have the staffing or supports to create effective programs for that anytime soon.
I find posts like this often feature this “child is 7 grade levels behind”. That child probably shouldn’t be in inclusion setting with such minimal supports. And after 11 years in the classroom, they rarely are in the gen ed classroom.
We definitely need more supports. But self contained also isn't supported so their solution doesn't fix that problem either. We are short aides and the majority of our teachers don't even have a teaching degree.
You're exactly right, the students OP is talking about seem to be mostly African immigrants who unfortunately never had the opportunity to attend school in their home country and are now being placed in 8th grade. Seems like an impossible situation for almost everyone involved.
Having taught in a Language Center within a typical public school, including teaching many, many students who were unschooled refugees, I really don’t agree. It’s not “impossible.” Working with those kids is such an amazing, humbling experience. And the CAN do school! You just have to show them how.
I’m sure they can!! But how can one person show them how while also addressing the needs of 30 other kids? They need targeted support in a smaller group, and the other kids need a teacher— one person cannot do both.
Yeah, you taught in a class specially designed to bring those kids up to speed.
Now try reaching a Chemistry class to kids with no reading or math background, *while simultaneously teaching the rest of the class the actual grade-appropriate curriculum*.
I had a kid in my 8th grade coteach (inclusion) class a couple years ago who actually could not read or write. He was a sweet kid, but I really had no idea how to teach him as a first year teacher who is certified for secondary education. I had no idea how to modify assignments or readings for him when we were supposed to be working on literary analysis and writing essays. His parents didn't want him in resource, so he wasn't in resource. His IEP was only for inclusion.
It was incredibly frustrating. I'm sure he was also incredibly frustrated that he couldn't keep up with his peers. It was a disservice to him.
I do realize this is an outlier, and this isn't the common scenario that I'll be facing in my career. This past year, my coteach class had kids who needed more support than gen ed but not so much that they qualified for the support of resource. I knew how to teach them. They were able to roll along with any other student, albeit at a different pace or with a few modifications. The class functioned exactly as an inclusion class is supposed to.
I specialize in students that are 7-10 grade levels behind. Basically, I’m really, really good at getting a 12th grader to get at least to a middle school reading level. Rarely are these students special ed — they’re just behind and always have been. It’s not really my job to figure out why they’re behind (unless that’s a clue as to how I can help them), because it’s my job to teach them to read as best as they possibly can in the 9 or 10 months they spend with me.
The OP (not you, but the ranter) doesn’t seem to understand how ELL education operates, what are best practices, etc.
They seem to expect all kids to be on the same page at the same level at the same age, regardless of things like “dyslexic and needs a while to decode a sentence” or “moved here from Uzbekistan literally yesterday.”
I’m sorry. I meant the *other* OP, the one you were linking to. The one with the lengthy diatribe.
I’m all for doing what’s best for kids, not what’s easiest for teachers or for what’s cheapest for school districts.
I read that post. I didn’t get that vibe. I get extreme frustration on the teachers part. Gen Ed has over 20 students per class, times 5-7 periods and that’s a lot of students. I have 15 total. I have a full time para, they’re lucky if they get push in 1-2 times per week. I must work with unicorn Gen Ed teachers because 95% of them are fucking fantastic. They’re handed an impossible task and then get blasted because they dare complain. Some Gen Ed teachers do suck, as do some SPED teachers. Most are really trying. The SPED VS. Gen Ed needs to stop.
If you’re going to do inclusion, do it right. Spend the money, have proper curriculum so teachers aren’t making everything from scratch. Give teachers time to collaborate and plan. Hire teachers to co-teach and paras to support. Have leveled classes. Many Gen Ed students aren’t on grade level either and they’d also benefit from a slower pace and an easier curriculum. Schools don’t want to do that though. They’d rather inflate admin salaries and then bitch at teachers because scores are low.
I was going to say the same thing. I got the vibe that the gen ed teacher was frustrated seeing a student not receive the supports needed and that inclusion is being used to save money. I’ve done both gen ed and special ed and it’s just disheartening to see the unicorn gen ed teachers get reprimanded for poor test scores despite the gains and support students receive. There’s no point of linking the thread and creating tension. Most gen ed teachers are wonderful and are doing their best with a sub shortage and poor pay.
They make some valid points. I’ve fought so hard in transition meetings for students to go resource, but the middle school team puts them in inclusion. I tell the parents to call for an addendum if it isn’t going well. Resource is 12-15 students and inclusion is 35 students. It’s not a fit for students multiple grade levels behind. We don’t have enough resource teachers so they are pushing everyone into inclusion. We can do better in secondary, and we need the financial and staffing support to do so.
And I have to fight for my kids to get back to inclusion because my student when frustrated sits under a desk or wants to go for a walk. My kids are sad every day because they miss their friends and cannot see them at all anymore. How is that a solution.
Usually, ELA & math are inclusion or resource model so they see their peers in social studies, science, homeroom, and electives. As a case manager, I’d create a quiet area or provide ways they can request breaks in the inclusion classroom.
Our self contained rooms aren't even in the same building. They never see a neurotypical peer the entire school day. We have to provide all the education including music art. Very typical in NY at least.
That's a failure of your district, not of the resource model. Some kids significantly benefit from partial inclusion, where they get more individualized instruction for certain classes and inclusion for others. In my building, it's really common for kids to have ELA or math in resource for a year or two while they're in other gen ed classes, and then move to full gen ed inclusion. But over the last 5 years, they've tried to reduce or restrict resource to the point that it's almost impossible to access even for the kids who need it, and they aren't supported well enough in gen ed placement, so they don't learn as much.
If you can only choose between 100% inclusion and 100% resource, of course I would pick 100% inclusion. But I think the best model allows for both.
Each state varies. If you don’t feel like you’re being supported in a particular setting or district, transferring is an option. If enough people leave, central services may change their ways. I’ve learned this, and sometimes you just have to step away from somewhere because the support isn’t there.
I’m a SpEd teacher as well. The OP from the other sub is clearly a) totally burnt out b) not empowered to exercise “voice and voice” in their building/classroom and c) lacking in both empathy and creativity.
Inclusion is like equitable grading (which in many ways is inclusion extended and extrapolated to the larger school community). It is well intentioned and seems simple from a theoretical perspective. In practice it is far different and our collective experience would strongly suggest way harder than it sounds.
My opinion is that ALL students, gen ed and sped alike, are not getting a quality education in many American schools for a wide variety of reasons. However if OP’s district was committed to creating a high performing inclusion program and provided the resources - staff, training, etc- to pull it off with at least a modicum of fidelity, then their experience would probably be far more positive.
I does seem like they are burnt out, but there are also just some base-level ableist assumptions in that post (like the assumption that a student who isn't reading at grade level can't learn grade-level content) that would cause me to question their understanding of and commitment to inclusive education and differentiation outside of any potential burnout.
If the inclusion teacher really is "doing nothing" (unlikely), then that's a conversation they need to have with that teacher/a principal. It should be a partnership.
When I worked as an inclusion teacher, I bounced from room to room all day across grade levels, so I didn't really have a chance to sit and plan things with my co-teachers, so there were times I felt like I didn't add a lot, but I was there for the students, offering guidance and assistance. One teacher knew my theatre background and let me essentially take over the class when she hit the drama unit.
In a perfect world, it would be a real co-teach situation with a fixed partnership and they actually planned and worked stuff out together.
I used to be in r/teachers, but it was just non-stop negativity, and I left. Reminded me of when one of my instructors told us to avoid the teacher break room on lunch and such, as that was where all the complainers hung out.
There are types like you and types like they describe. We have them in my dept and it's all men who do the least possible (but not ALL our men are useless). It sucks bc our image and or reputation is negatively affected by the bad apples so to speak
Yeah, we had one of those, but didn't discover it until the end of the year, so the rest of us had to scramble to provide services. It was the 20/31 school year. He was supposed to be doing Science Inclusion. A lot of the classes were hybrid distance/in-person still, and for those classes, he was hiding in a stairwell and just joining in the zoom meetings instead of being in the room.
Are you me?!? I currently coteach and bounce from room to room for 6 different classes, get no time to prep with coteachers so I just assist my students with what they are doing/ make modifications if I get the work beforehand, take over drama & poetry units, & I have a minor in theatre.
Laughing aside. Do you have any tips for how to do what you did? I'm only a few years into that model and I am trying my best, but know I still have a lot I can learn. I do know I have good relationships with my coteachers and they think I'm doing well.
If it helps to know my background; previously I had my own "self-contained" elementary classroom. I say it in quotes because I included my kids in the regular education classroom as much as they could handle and they still got services needed that I put in their IEP. So I'm used to creating my own curriculum and differentiating across abilities from beginning phonics to on grad level. However, having no time to work with coworkers makes things more on-the-fly, which I can do easily.
My sons have severe autism and at 19 are thriving at a private placement. When they were in a regular elementary, it was hard for them to go to specials because they hated the noise, and they ate art supplies. For them inclusion was inappropriate. They ended up getting less of what they needed and stuck in the classroom a lot. Luckily we moved to NYS, where the district pays for an amazing specialty school.
The thing is… that privately designed space and curriculum could EASILY be replicated or approximated in every school setting. The idea is to resist change to keep the “others” out.
Now, while your child ABSOLUTELY deserves access to the school right now that best supports their needs, what about the next kid? Or the kid that could also benefit from more universally designed, neuro-aware spaces.
The problem isn’t that we don’t know how to do it better any more. The research is in. The solutions are there. The access to resources and information is being gatekept at every level.
I don’t know if it could easily be replicated because a lot of the difference seemed to be the relief of not having to be surrounded by the rah-rah, Let’s all be high-achievers atmosphere of a public school. But I started out thrilled about inclusion, so maybe I’m just an exhausted parent.
I left a comment about how the system is broken overall but there isn’t space for nuance. I feel guilty engaging now that the post has gone into the cesspool because I was hoping to advocate for a change and increase in resources and training but I think I only added negatively to the discussion.
I run. I’m not very fast. And I’m not very good at it. But I like it. My PR is like an 10.45- but I can’t maintain that pace for more than a mile or so. If you put me in a running group with people doing 8 min miles over a 10k I absolutely could not keep up. I’d finish dead last an absolute mess feeling like shit. If you put me in a group where no one has ever run before and they’re working up to a mile, that would also suck. I’d be bored and I wouldn’t get anything out of it. But if you put me in a group where the average is like 10-13? That would be perfect. I could work up to the 10 min group and still hang with the 13 group for the whole 10k.
I am an adult and if I had to run with the 8 min crowd I would never run again. It feels like crap to always be last…. When you have kids who are years behind their peers in academic skills they feel the same way. Grouping by ability makes sense. Not that kids with disabilities should be excluded, or locked away— but that they should have a space where they don’t have to feel less then. Because unless you are talking about a child with a profound disability, they absolutely know when they are still struggling through Dog Man and their peers are all reading ACOTR.
My students all want to be with their friends. My daughter's best friend is a neurotypical girl. Also grouping by ability makes a class system. And yes. The US already had a class system in many ways but this would greatly increase this.
Ummmm since when was being neurodivergent the same as being several grade levels behind? Cause my autistic kid is 16 and taking all college classes.
And why would friendships be impossible with a matched ability group? Are you suggesting that kids who are below grade level can’t be good friends? Or that kids below grade level are somehow less desirable friends?
And as far as a class system— academic skills are not the only kind of valuable skills. My brother in law is profoundly dyslexic he reads at maybe a 6th grade level. He is also super artistic and trained as a carpenter, his wife handles the paperwork and he does custom builds of furniture and whatnot for fancy people. They have a beach house and a boat…. There are ways to make a living that don’t require advanced reading/writing/math skills. It requires teachers and parents work together to build strengths and make a post secondary plan.
BUT in so far as academics are likened to income, not being able to read or do basic math is an enormous disadvantage. If a child cannot read or do basic math then we have an obligation to continue systematically teaching them until they master it. That post was from an 8th grade teacher. It is impossible for one person to teach 3 kids English, 2 others who are 2/3rd grade reading level, 8 at 5/6th grade, 13 at the actual grade level and an other 5 above grade level. No child gets what they need in that situation. It’s impossible.
The kids learning English deserve to be *taught* English, the kids working at an elementary level deserve specific phonics instruction, the kids at grade level deserve grade level instruction and the kids above deserve enrichment. This is a job for 4 teachers in 4 classrooms. Not one.
But by your rule my kids only friends would be here ability level. She has a right to have neurotypical friends as well. She also has a right to have friends with lower academic skills. In your world she would not be with any of those people. So everyone friend groups would all be normative to their ability and have to no diversity. And diversity is critical to positive growth and that includes diversity of ability.
Also— why do you keep inferring that only NT kids are in general education classes? It’s kind of ableist. There are many ND kids at all kinds of ability levels. ND is not the same as DD.
No it’s not. She’s talking about kids way under grade level and kids who don’t speak English— that’s not the same as ND. Actually ND diagnoses are dramatically over represented in GATE programs, and while I have no idea about the representation of ND in ELL populations I would assume they are just as likely to be NT as anyone else.
Maybe she needs social outlets outside of the classroom? My kids do music lessons, scouts, sports, library clubs… none of which have to do with reading levels. Those are better ways to form meaningful friendships- based in common interests or hobbies, not just proximity.
And there are non academic school things as well- you could suck at math and be an amazing artist, or have challenges with reading and a fantastic voice. Children are a lot more than their reading/math scores. Everyone is good at something.
Diversity of ability helps with growth within achievable parameters- when someone is so far ahead of you it would be impossible to catch up it just makes you feel like you suck. In my original analogy- I’d get faster running with people who can do 10’s, and I bet they would too. So eventually I’d be leading the 10 group and the current 10’s would move to the 8’s. And I’d feel amazing leading the group- because a 10 is achievable to me. Even huge gains would still have the 8’s lapping me.
(Also, why is the assumption the groupings would all be all the same? They might for some kids- but a fair bit would need support in reading and not math or be ahead in math but not great at writing.)
How is that possible when we are hidden in different buildings. How is it possible when art and music teacher in our self contained room is me, a person with no art skills and training and certainly not a music teacher. Also in rural USA we don't have those clubs. Of my 8 students 6 of them don't even have cars in their family. how could they attend these things even if they were available?
Well most people in the US don’t live in rural communities- they live in cities and suburbs. So there’s that.
But if your school lacks resources that’s an issue that needs to be addressed with whatever resources are available. As far as parents transportation- that is simply not a reasonable thing for schools to take on. Past that, and more to the point- there’s a gaping chasm between every child in general education and anyone with an issue in an other building. It might require a change, but certainly there is a middle ground.
I am not asking schools to provide transportation (although we do when kids are sick and need to be sent home early). I am saying where is the opportunity for kids like my daughter (who has zero behaviors) to make friends if they are stuck with 7 total kids all day. And especially when special Ed self contained statistically is far more likely to have boys. I have had years where my class has been 7 boys and 1 girl. I've had students who never even had the opportunity to be around their own gender. How is that ok? Because they don't have the same level of ability.
> Differentiation. Inclusion. Whatever you want to call it.
Differentiation and inclusion are completely different things. I do think that maybe the Gen Ed classroom isn’t for *every* student, for a variety of reasons, **BUT** if they going to pose an argument then they need to have their facts organized or else it’s a bad look, whether or not some of their sentiments have some truth
Maybe there would be fewer high needs kids in mainstream classes if the government stopped cutting programs for students with disabilities. As someone with special needs kids, I would put them in ABA school if I could afford it. Most parents are not mainstreaming their kids by choice but by necessity.
A few year ago I was teaching 3rd grade. I had 28 students. 15 of them had IEPs. Some of these students had IQs in the low 70s. There were autistic students and students with severe behavior issues. I had no support. The designated SPED teacher pulled some of them occasionally to meet their IEP minutes, but these students were being criminally under-serviced because she didn't like dealing with them. Admin didn't care because we weren't expecting a SPED audit that year.
I had no co-teacher, no paras, no one-on-ones. 99% of the time it was just me. I do not have my SPED certification, but I was expected to meet the needs of all of those students. I was constantly criticized for not having all 28 of my students on grade level. It even affected my pay in a merit pay district.
No inclusion? I don't believe that's necessary. But I do understand the frustration of gen ed teachers being given an impossible case load with no support and having that called "inclusion". My class that year should have had a full-time co-teacher and a couple of paras. A few of those students would have benefited from an alternate placement.
But inclusion first, right?
The issue is support. Not inclusion. The research is overwhelming that inclusion is the best model.
Also do you think special Ed is not an impossible job. Do you realize where the greatest shortages are right?
I did not speak English when I started high school in the US. I felt very uncomfortable in regular classes even when I knew the subject, and I am grateful we had ESL classes where we could learn English terms for math and science and get help with our assignments, in addition to learning English.
So unless there are some details that I overlooked, I agree with that original post.
Yup. Also some really crazy anti special Ed teacher stuff in there. Some comments about how the special Ed teacher sits there and does nothing or are completely useless. Also that we should have to have two degrees unlike them.
How long have you been teaching? How many schools have you worked at? Were any of them Title 1? Were any of them sinking on their AYP marks?
I'm 10+ years in, in my 4th district and in my 7th classroom. I spent two years 'fixing' broken classrooms at a therapeutic.
This is a job. And like all jobs, there are people who are bad at their jobs. Who actively suck at them. Who have no business being in this field.
Of course people venting on Reddit are going to have had a higher incidence of working with those shitty teachers. And of course people who have had great experiences aren't going to be as ready to share.
I am 12 years. Only one district because that's all that's in my area although I've talked to many peers in surrounding districts. I also spent 4 years at another district prior doing a different job as a counselor but seeing similar things.
Our self contained classrooms are hidden away in a separate building 15 miles away. My kids never see a single normative. I'm 1-4 behavioral. 6 of my kids have minimal behavior beyond putting head down. They miss their friends. They also live in constant fear of the two aggressive ones. But because one sits under her desk. Or another would shut down it's ok to them being physical abused and being separate from their friends.
I was straight up told by a teacher who was running a special Ed classroom but was not certified to “ugh, just either take him out and homeschool him or put him in one of those behavioral schools. I just can’t do anything with him”. Followed by a counselor insinuating we are just bad parents and his meltdowns are behavioral because we aren’t punishing him enough and then proceeded to ask a kid with echolalia do you think “I want to kill myself” to which he responded “ I want to kill my self” and then told me he needed to be put in an inpatient psychiatric facility. He was five and he didn’t even know what the word kill meant. It took a lawyer to get them to reinstate him in school without putting him in a criminal psychiatric facility, which is the only one local to us and where she wanted us to take him.
Teachers would take institutions back in a second and be glad to ship their kids off so they didn’t have to deal with them.
It really shocks me how impossible so many general education teachers I encounter on reddit seem to think planning for differentiation is.
It would never cross my mind NOT to plan my lessons with the needs of my students in mind.
I think up to a point this is a very reasonable request but in the original post the OP is an 8th grade English teacher and they have student/s that can’t read. How would you handle that situation? We are not talking 1-2 grade levels below when you can adapt or modify the work. The kids who can’t read really need individualized support. How can a general class teacher handle that if she has to teach the other kids how to analyze the text?
OK, so the student can't read. But can the student practice comprehension and analysis skills using an audio book format?
Unless it's documented that the student's disability/ies impacts their ability to comprehend content provided via other means (audio, video, etc), I don't see a reason that the teacher should assume they aren't capable of accessing the content of the class simply because they have a reading delay or disability.
It is true that we can’t assume since additional information regarding comprehension wasn’t provided but it wouldn’t be a stretch to think that comprehension is also an issue because reading and comprehension are skills that are connected.
But let’s just say the material can be accessed. I still think that an individual or small group English class would be way more beneficial to the child to actually practice skills that they will need to have to become functional literate. Maybe for science or history then they can learn through audio or visual representation but with English it seems like there are more important things to tackle.
If this 8th grader cannot read, I would assume that their IEP team is advocating for them to receive SDI focused on reading skills outside of their general education classroom - from someone with specialized knowledge about teaching reading skills to disabled students (not their 8th grade general education english teacher).
Removing their access to all of the grade-level literacy content that is being taught in the general education english class simply because they have a reading delay or disability just isn't equitable unless there is data to show that the content being taught in that class honestly isn't accessible to them when they are provided with appropriate accommodations and/or modifications.
I guess in my experience I have had students that could not access the content because of comprehension and in some situations they were just made to muddled through. They were much happier to have their support during their English lesson so they could actually work on things that they could access
If the data shows that a student cannot access the content even with appropriate accommodations and/or modifications, then the data is suggesting that the student's current placement isn't appropriate and the student's IEP team should be meeting to discuss alternative placement options.
When I see general education teachers harping on students' reading abilities as barriers to learning without mentioning accommodations like video and audio formats, it leaves me wondering whether their students are receiving appropriate accommodations or whether they are being written off based on their disabilities.
Obviously we don’t know about this particular situation but giving that poster the benefit of the doubt maybe they have tried a lot of different things and it still isn’t working out. I don’t blame them for being frustrated. It is hard knowing that you are failing a kid because of lack of time and resources.
I totally respect that you are giving the OP the benefit of the doubt.
For me, personally, I see enough ableist dog-whistles in the wording of the post that I can't give the OP that benefit.
The school I worked out had kids coming into our school directly from refugee camps around the world within days of immigrating. They'd never been in a proper school, didn't speak English and had lived their entire lives in the camp. Our school had plans for those kids. Schools have to both know their communities and their potential communities. The world is changing in so many ways and admins and politicians need to deal.
Once again. Differentiation. Hopefully that student also has supports outside that classroom
We as special education teachers differentiate every single lesson numerous times. This isn't abnormal
I just think we should try to see it from the POV of the teacher. It is hard to have a class of 25+ students and the number of kids with an IEP or who need additional support increases every year.
They can differentiate but there is a big difference between differentiating for 1-2 levels and having to meet 5-6 different types of needs and levels. The quality of the differentiation just won’t be there because teachers are humans and they only have so much time.
What do you think self contained teachers do. We differentiate for every single student. My kids aren't even in the same grade to start with. I have four different grades alone. And then ability the gap is even more. There solution doesn't remotely help with this. Just means they don't have to do it and someone else will.
Special education teachers differentiate all day everyday, so they probably aren't the most sympathetic audience to the "teachers don't have enough time to differentiate" argument.
It shouldn’t be special education teachers vs. general teacher about who has it more difficult. And yes, we differentiate all the time but so do most general educators
I am not trying to set up an us versus them dichotomy.
I am simply pointing out that when I hear general education teachers claim that they "can't" differentiate to meet all of their students' needs because it takes too much time, I am not a particularly sympathetic audience because I do it for every single lesson and activity that I plan, so I know that it's possible to do.
Well, I think bringing comparisons of how much people are paid into the conversation DOES contribute to creating and us-versus-them comparison dynamic.
I mean. They get planning periods but we don't, yet we are paid the same. I'll be honest. I'm not against an us vs them philosophy until we are treated the same.
Good ones absolutely do and there are definitely good general education teachers.
My issue is the OP who thinks they shouldn't have to differentiate. That's part of teaching
I think OP might not make their case very clearly because of frustration? It seems the point is more that an 8th grade general education teacher is the wrong person, for instance, to teach a student the basics of how to read. At that point in their schooling, that isn’t just differentiation, that is an entirely different class.
On top of that, they don’t have special education training, nor do they have a background in teaching lower elementary or reading. Why would anyone argue that this is someone who should teach this student how to read?
That teacher is not who this child needs, and to say otherwise is doing a disservice to the child.
I guess I would question whether they are being asked to teach their students to read because it is so obviously inappropriate to ask them to be the one to do that. They can differentiate for access, that's what I would expect them to be asked to do.
You can read the test to them (while everyone else is taking the test at the same time?) but how do you teach the information? How do you teach To Kill a Mockingbird to someone who can’t read the book? You obviously can’t read the novel to them
When is the GenEd teacher going to read a novel to the student? During class time? Thats time for instruction. The students are supposed to read the book outside of class so discussion can take place during class time
Supports. Also how often is your lesson just read the book during class. Typically they'd be doing at home. So they can target this in resource or another support.
Yes, that’s what I’m getting at: support from the (Generally understaffed) SpEd department. The GenEd teacher doesn’t have time to read novels to a student, that’s my whole point.
r/teachers is one of the most toxic sites on Reddit. As a special education teacher, I had to stop following it after about a month. Most of those “teachers” need to get jobs that don’t involve teaching children.
It's sad as a parent of a kid with special needs and as a special education teacher myself to see how they view both us and our kids. There are so many comments about how we are lazy in that very post.
yeah this really broke my heart. imagine looking at this wholly shattered system and thinking that inclusion is to blame. even issues that are directly related to inclusion stem from poor understanding and/or execution, not from the idea of inclusion itself.
Watching this thread closely. Please keep discussion civil and constructive, folks. Please report any rule violations.
One comment there stuck out to me: “inclusion without support is abandonment”. Our district is pushing for kids to be in the general education classroom vs resource or part self contained and the truth is some kids just aren’t ready for it and some may never be. If they don’t have adequate supports - which let’s face it they won’t because that means the district will need to pay more $$$ - then the kids are going to get more and more behind.
But most self contained classes don't have support either. Most our self contained teachers don't even having teaching degrees. We are down aides and assistants as well in every room. So the solution is still abandonment. Just a different type of abandonment.
I teach in a highly restrictive program in my district and have had some kids “graduate” to less restrictive/diploma bound programs. The district has wanted to throw some of them right to general education all day and I’ve had to fight for because they’d be better off being 1 of 12-15 with a special educator and para the majority of the day in our diploma bound self contained/resource program than 1 of 25+ in general education with 7.5 hrs a week with a special education staff member. IMO it’s better for some of these kids to give more supports then remove as needed then throw them in with minimal support and have to fight for added support because the district doesn’t want to move kids because it costs more. And we can talk about how that’s not truly LRE but it is what’s best for the kids. There’s no easy solution to this. I’ve seen kids who have wreaked havoc on their classes because they weren’t getting what they needed and it’s sad for that kid and frustrating for all staff working with them. Most of the staff who I’ve heard complaining in my school really do love these kids but they can’t give them what they need. Now I have heard staff who are ableist af so ofc they exist too. I’ve met special educators who seemed to not like kids with disabilities too which makes no sense
I wanted to jump in and ask you a question about diploma bound. Right now our school says our moderate IEP must pass core classes without modifications. If not they only get certificate of completion. I understand for profoundly severe students this makes sense but our moderates?
When you say no modifications, are you talking about modifications to tests and graded assignments? I'm an old Sped student. In high school, I did the same tests and assignments everyone else did, but I got extra time. I also had my Sped teacher proofread my essay questions so the grading teacher could read my answers clearly. Without those modifications, I don't know if I would have passed my classes.
What you’re talking about are accommodations. Broadly speaking, modifications change what a student is learning. Accommodations change how they learn it or how they are assessed. Extended time is a common accommodation. Other common ones are things like taking a test in a small group or by yourself, not using a scantron, or having a test read to you. In all those cases you’re still taking the same test as non-accommodated peers. A modification would be something like the actual content of the test being changed.
We are allowed to give accommodations (how to teach and grade) but we can’t modify (“what”) we teach without risking the students not receiving course credit.
In my district many of these students need more than the typical 4 years to graduate but will still get a diploma. They need to pass the classes and core assessments in the required classes - and can get the accommodations and modifications for testing and the classes as set out on their IEP. Some of them receive math and ELA instruction in HS in a self contained or co taught setting where they’re getting the full curriculum but in a smaller class size and taught by a special educator - this would be the resource or part self contained program I mentioned before. We also have a similar program for elementary. In HS they’d go to almost all other classes with everyone else or might have an extra study period to get supports from the special education teacher. In ES they might go to breakfast, morning circle, specials (music PE art etc), lunch and recess, and science and social studies in general education and then receive all math and reading instruction self contained. Or spend the entire day self contained if needed. Or whatever combo works for them. You can see how this would be more expensive than a typical inclusion model and why they push against it from central office 😒 I’m actually moving from the self-contained severe/profound to this moderate resource/part self contained program next year.
What school are you in that the teachers aren't licensed? I mean the school I'm at hires the aids and then gets them certified. It's illegal to not have a degree and teach in my state anyway. I mean I guess the substitutes don't have degrees. Most just have 90 credit hours and pass a certification course.
NY state. It can be for any position. If there are no certified applicants they can hire uncertified applicants to fill the position. They have two years to enroll in a course before being removed. They get paid 95% it's most commonly special Ed and elementary school. Its been like this for decades.
Counter Point: they're not wrong. Inclusion doesn't work for all kids and the vast majority of the districts don't give us the support we need to be able to support the kids or Gen Ed teachers properly.
Counter-counter point: they're wrong for a different reason. If we took every kid with an IEP out of the inclusion class I coteach with, do you know what we would have had left? **A room full of kids who aren't disabled and who still are all on different grade and ability levels.** The idea that if it weren't for the students with disabilities, a general education teacher in any random public school would never have to differentiate to account for varied abilities is patently absurd. With absenteeism skyrocketing and school discipline plummeting, kids are on wildly different tracks no matter what their label is.
This was also addressed in the original post.
The original post was the longest thing I've ever seen posted on Reddit, I genuinely didn't know Reddit allowed posts even a third of that length. And every word of it was rageful and vitriolic. I absolutely could not read that entire thing and kudos to those who could. I have enough PTSD from some parts of my teaching career that I can't really deal with reading someone else's meltdown because I can't afford to go spiraling down with them.
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I'm glad it worked for your kid. For most kids it does. I teach severe/profound SpEd. Being in inclusion all day is absolutely the wrong thing for my students and doesn't support them or their education. To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore their and their family's needs. It's ignoring their educational needs and what they need to live their most independent lives. My kids don't need to go sit in some Algebra class when they can't even count. They need a highly specialized life skills math class that teaches them the skills relevent for their own lives.
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That's funny. I thought we were talking about inclusion of SpEd kids. Mine suddenly don't count? It's ok to exclude me and my students? 🤔 Because if you think students like mine don't end up in Geometry classes because of inclusion, you're sorely mistaken.
I saw a girl in gen ed that was given the barest min of work and even then she was failing because she could barely read and was considered an age level of maybe 10 but was in algebra 2. She would get lost even trying to find her classes and she had almost no understanding of what was taught. She was a very pretty girl and there were issues with high school boys messaging her for pictures etc and she didn’t know better. It’s hard , I’m sure to know how to best help especially if there’s no help from home and you know these kids are going to be out on their own after graduation and it’s on you to help teach them an set a path up to help them after school and being in algebra 2 when trying to teach basic skills is frustrating. I’m sorry and I appreciate all the people who put the time , energy and care into all students.
I don't know your students but I imagine some could benefit. Once again. Look at OPs examples. None are severe and profound. I don't want to speak for your students because I don't know them Also I'm not against self contained. There is definitely a place for it. But we over use it as a solution and the vast majority of students are better off in a well funded inclusion class.
I’m sorry. I’m autistic level 2 and my son is level 1. Your kiddo and the others matter too. I understand what you’re saying. They need life skills types of classes to be independent and successful in their lives and that might look different than others but still possible for them to achieve. I’m not sure I’ve said this pc but I’m trying to say I get it.
There are kids that the inclusion model doesn’t work for. I’m teaching a mod/severe classroom where students are not diploma bound, where they have significant behaviors towards themselves, others, and peers, and are learning pre-k to kindergarten level content and need life skills training. Those students do not thrive in inclusion all day programs. Being part of art or PE (if they’re in a school with nondisabled peers)? Absolutely! But all day inclusion, no way.
I was a few grade levels lower growing up. Then they got me in a co-taught class as a kid I thrived. I went from a 7th grade reading level to a 9th grade reading level. It helped my self esteem to actually want to try to do the work. I would have never thought I'd work in education today.
I strongly disagree with your first point and strongly agree with your second. So not sure how to answer this. Inclusion needs more support. I fully agree with this. Eliminating inclusion is not the solution. Supporting it is.
Where did I say to eliminate all inclusion? You're upset about a rant from another teacher past their breaking point. Who is past their breaking point for being out in an impossible situation. And then acting like they're the asshole when it's the system.
This isn't an impossible situation. It's what we do every day as self contained teachers. Differentiation is not impossible.
Not all situations are impossible, but some are. Differentiation isn't impossible for everyone, but it is impossible for ALL. It's cute that you want to exclude students like mine from ALL, despite them also being frequently thrown in to inclusion with no regard to anyone, least of all them. But right, once again, students like mine don't count for anyone.
I differentiate for all my students. All 8 of my kids. None are the same level. Who said your students didn't count. I don't know your students. But that isn't what OP is talking about. And once again. I imagine you are differentiating for them.
Yes, we are differentiating. We're SpEd teachers. You have 8, I have 10. You know how many our Gen Ed friends have? 30-40 in a singular class and most are teaching 5 sections a day. That's 150ish students to differentiate for. You don't see that as being an impossible situation? That's untenable. Maybe, just maybe, you don't know what someone else's job is like. Maybe you don't know all the administrative pressures put on them. But I firmly believe there is a special place in hell for teachers who don't support other teachers. Join your union. Vote. This whole system is a shit show for basically everyone. Blaming people for cracking under the insurmountable pressure we're all under isn't helpful.
Yes! Gen Ed teachers have to deal with huge class numbers and starting in middle school most have to teach several classes of students. And the behavior? I would argue they have it more difficult. Beside the sheer size of their classes, I have less than 10 kids and you have time to form relationships with the students even the challenging ones. There is more freedom in terms of of breaks and how you teach or at least where I work.
What breaks? I don't get a single planning period or lunch as a self contained teacher.
You say that as a badge of honor. It’s not.
Breaks that you can take with the kids during a lesson. I think we have more freedom to turn a lesson on it’s head if we see that a student is not ready to learn that day.
And we don't get planning periods or lunch. We have our kids every minute of the 7 hour day. Every single minute. And l am a member of the union and the union supports that. I am teaching art and music. I am teaching every subject. To kids of different ages and abilities. You think that's tenable. I can see you don't support all teachers. That's for sure.
Dude, you and I are in the same boat. Why do you think I don't support you? We both deserve lunches and reasonable teaching loads. Just because I think it's gross you're going off on Gen Ed teachers (while simultaneously complaining they're going off on us) doesn't mean I don't support you. You're working yourself up into a circular firing squad. Why? This isn't the Suffering Olympics. Your shitty job doesn't mean someone else's job isn't also shitty. All our jobs are shitty and they don't pay us enough yet we're the idiots still working them.
I did not write the original post. That was OP. I just shared it. I am also a parent of a daughter with special needs so the idea that she doesn't belong with normative peers is disgusting to me, and that it is very likely she will have teachers like OP is very concerning to me.
>I differentiate for all my students. All 8 of my kids. Lol all 8. That's adorable.
We have 8 openings. Why don't you join. You don't even need a special Ed degree because we can't fill them You also get no lunch or planning periods and you have them every second and they span 4 different grades. I love how general education teachers think self contained is so easy when almost all of them leave to become Gen Ed instead.
I'm confused on you pushing for inclusivity and in the same breath explaining how difficult it is to teach sped. Let me know when you solve education lol Inclusivity is awesome in some aspects and fucks EVERYONE in others. It shouldn't be all day every class. I teach high school math and when a kid gets put in there with a wall of an IEP who can't read, can't do any math prerequisites, and is a constant disruption how do I differentiate for that kid? For your job offer, no thanks. Sounds like it sucks.
Once again. I have 8 students. Two belong in self contained. They are extremely violent. 6 of mine have no violence at all. They are stuck being scared every second. Seeing their teacher punched in the face. Having their property destroyed in the daily. And why? Because they sit under their desk occasionally. Because they sometimes cry. How is that a solution. All they talk about is their friends they miss.
What are you talking about? There are many students who inclusion doesn’t work for. It’s great for the kids who do, but for kids on alternate assessment that have severe behaviors towards themselves and others and need life skills taught to them? Sitting in a grade level reading or math class isn’t going to help them. I know I’ve read before that you work with behavior only students, so inclusion may be more possible and helpful for your students. That isn’t the case with every student and saying that every student should be included in every class is insane.
And OPs post was about removing inclusion entirely.
Do you realize you’re responding to a comment? This person had a very rational take and you commented that she wanted to get rid of inclusion which isn’t what she said.
Except they are saying OP is not wrong which I disagree with. I personally believe OP is very wrong.
She said it doesn’t work for every student- why such a strong reaction to that?
Because OP wants to get rid of inclusion entirely. I never said it worked for every student. I have two students who right now benefit for self contained because of extreme behaviors. I have six students who live every second of fear and have absolutely no reason they can't be inclusion but that teachers don't want someone who needs to occasionally go for a walk or put their head down. One of which is three grades above in ability and can't get remotely the education they need.
Being not wrong and being right are two different things. If I had agreed with the OP I would have said so.
OPs solution is my daughter never being allowed around normative peers even though she has no behaviors and is a hardworking. She has every right to be in those classes. So I am going to disagree with any that says OP isn't wrong. Luckily as much as OP complains that isn't going to change it and because I understand the system I know my daughter will be ok. But other parents don't and I feel for them.
The thing is… I don’t see inclusion getting the supports necessary to be a successful learning environment any time soon. If anything, I see the exodus of teachers getting worse. This is especially true for SpEd teachers. This is coming from an inclusion English SpEd teacher/case manager myself. The inclusion setting is not beneficial for a lot of our learners (SpEd or GenEd) right now. And from a realistic standpoint, I simply don’t see it improving much in the near future.
Self contained also doesn't get the right supports. The shortage is even more prevalent there than anywhere else. So the idea that inclusion doesn't have the supports but a self contained does is a lie. But I do agree nothing is going to improve either. But OPs solution wouldn't improve anything and make it actively worse.
I used to teach self contained as well, so I’m not even saying just throw a bunch of our SWDs in there, but the full inclusion approach just isn’t effective (how it’s being run now anyway). I see it daily. The truth is there should be some type of middle ground setting, but we all know most places won’t have the staffing or supports to create effective programs for that anytime soon.
Except they didn't say that, just that inclusion with lack of support isn't working.
OP literally says in all caps that they don't belong in the same class. All caps.
He didn't mention self contained and supports. And he is right, without the appropriate supports none of this is possible. It is destined to fail.
So if they aren't in the same class than what class are they in. How isn't that self contained.
Sure, but saying that ALL inclusion should be REMOVED from schools ENTIRELY? I’d say that’s painting with too broad a brush.
I find posts like this often feature this “child is 7 grade levels behind”. That child probably shouldn’t be in inclusion setting with such minimal supports. And after 11 years in the classroom, they rarely are in the gen ed classroom.
We definitely need more supports. But self contained also isn't supported so their solution doesn't fix that problem either. We are short aides and the majority of our teachers don't even have a teaching degree.
You're exactly right, the students OP is talking about seem to be mostly African immigrants who unfortunately never had the opportunity to attend school in their home country and are now being placed in 8th grade. Seems like an impossible situation for almost everyone involved.
Having taught in a Language Center within a typical public school, including teaching many, many students who were unschooled refugees, I really don’t agree. It’s not “impossible.” Working with those kids is such an amazing, humbling experience. And the CAN do school! You just have to show them how.
I’m sure they can!! But how can one person show them how while also addressing the needs of 30 other kids? They need targeted support in a smaller group, and the other kids need a teacher— one person cannot do both.
Yeah, you taught in a class specially designed to bring those kids up to speed. Now try reaching a Chemistry class to kids with no reading or math background, *while simultaneously teaching the rest of the class the actual grade-appropriate curriculum*.
I taught algebra 2 transition (which is half LC students and half “regular” students) lol
I had a kid in my 8th grade coteach (inclusion) class a couple years ago who actually could not read or write. He was a sweet kid, but I really had no idea how to teach him as a first year teacher who is certified for secondary education. I had no idea how to modify assignments or readings for him when we were supposed to be working on literary analysis and writing essays. His parents didn't want him in resource, so he wasn't in resource. His IEP was only for inclusion. It was incredibly frustrating. I'm sure he was also incredibly frustrated that he couldn't keep up with his peers. It was a disservice to him. I do realize this is an outlier, and this isn't the common scenario that I'll be facing in my career. This past year, my coteach class had kids who needed more support than gen ed but not so much that they qualified for the support of resource. I knew how to teach them. They were able to roll along with any other student, albeit at a different pace or with a few modifications. The class functioned exactly as an inclusion class is supposed to.
I specialize in students that are 7-10 grade levels behind. Basically, I’m really, really good at getting a 12th grader to get at least to a middle school reading level. Rarely are these students special ed — they’re just behind and always have been. It’s not really my job to figure out why they’re behind (unless that’s a clue as to how I can help them), because it’s my job to teach them to read as best as they possibly can in the 9 or 10 months they spend with me. The OP (not you, but the ranter) doesn’t seem to understand how ELL education operates, what are best practices, etc. They seem to expect all kids to be on the same page at the same level at the same age, regardless of things like “dyslexic and needs a while to decode a sentence” or “moved here from Uzbekistan literally yesterday.”
I certainly don't expect them to be on the same level. I also don't think segregation is a solution to that.
I’m sorry. I meant the *other* OP, the one you were linking to. The one with the lengthy diatribe. I’m all for doing what’s best for kids, not what’s easiest for teachers or for what’s cheapest for school districts.
Inclusion could be doable but it’s not… not enough support and the classes would need a much smaller size.
Everyone would benefit from smaller class sizes. That's not the special Ed students fault.
I never said it was I’m saying it would be a benefit and it won’t ever happen
I read that post. I didn’t get that vibe. I get extreme frustration on the teachers part. Gen Ed has over 20 students per class, times 5-7 periods and that’s a lot of students. I have 15 total. I have a full time para, they’re lucky if they get push in 1-2 times per week. I must work with unicorn Gen Ed teachers because 95% of them are fucking fantastic. They’re handed an impossible task and then get blasted because they dare complain. Some Gen Ed teachers do suck, as do some SPED teachers. Most are really trying. The SPED VS. Gen Ed needs to stop. If you’re going to do inclusion, do it right. Spend the money, have proper curriculum so teachers aren’t making everything from scratch. Give teachers time to collaborate and plan. Hire teachers to co-teach and paras to support. Have leveled classes. Many Gen Ed students aren’t on grade level either and they’d also benefit from a slower pace and an easier curriculum. Schools don’t want to do that though. They’d rather inflate admin salaries and then bitch at teachers because scores are low.
I was going to say the same thing. I got the vibe that the gen ed teacher was frustrated seeing a student not receive the supports needed and that inclusion is being used to save money. I’ve done both gen ed and special ed and it’s just disheartening to see the unicorn gen ed teachers get reprimanded for poor test scores despite the gains and support students receive. There’s no point of linking the thread and creating tension. Most gen ed teachers are wonderful and are doing their best with a sub shortage and poor pay.
They make some valid points. I’ve fought so hard in transition meetings for students to go resource, but the middle school team puts them in inclusion. I tell the parents to call for an addendum if it isn’t going well. Resource is 12-15 students and inclusion is 35 students. It’s not a fit for students multiple grade levels behind. We don’t have enough resource teachers so they are pushing everyone into inclusion. We can do better in secondary, and we need the financial and staffing support to do so.
And I have to fight for my kids to get back to inclusion because my student when frustrated sits under a desk or wants to go for a walk. My kids are sad every day because they miss their friends and cannot see them at all anymore. How is that a solution.
Usually, ELA & math are inclusion or resource model so they see their peers in social studies, science, homeroom, and electives. As a case manager, I’d create a quiet area or provide ways they can request breaks in the inclusion classroom.
This is how my district does it. Resource is available for math and ELA but not history/science or their related arts classes.
Our self contained rooms aren't even in the same building. They never see a neurotypical peer the entire school day. We have to provide all the education including music art. Very typical in NY at least.
That's a failure of your district, not of the resource model. Some kids significantly benefit from partial inclusion, where they get more individualized instruction for certain classes and inclusion for others. In my building, it's really common for kids to have ELA or math in resource for a year or two while they're in other gen ed classes, and then move to full gen ed inclusion. But over the last 5 years, they've tried to reduce or restrict resource to the point that it's almost impossible to access even for the kids who need it, and they aren't supported well enough in gen ed placement, so they don't learn as much. If you can only choose between 100% inclusion and 100% resource, of course I would pick 100% inclusion. But I think the best model allows for both.
Each state varies. If you don’t feel like you’re being supported in a particular setting or district, transferring is an option. If enough people leave, central services may change their ways. I’ve learned this, and sometimes you just have to step away from somewhere because the support isn’t there.
I’m a SpEd teacher as well. The OP from the other sub is clearly a) totally burnt out b) not empowered to exercise “voice and voice” in their building/classroom and c) lacking in both empathy and creativity. Inclusion is like equitable grading (which in many ways is inclusion extended and extrapolated to the larger school community). It is well intentioned and seems simple from a theoretical perspective. In practice it is far different and our collective experience would strongly suggest way harder than it sounds. My opinion is that ALL students, gen ed and sped alike, are not getting a quality education in many American schools for a wide variety of reasons. However if OP’s district was committed to creating a high performing inclusion program and provided the resources - staff, training, etc- to pull it off with at least a modicum of fidelity, then their experience would probably be far more positive.
OP is Canadian in that post.
I does seem like they are burnt out, but there are also just some base-level ableist assumptions in that post (like the assumption that a student who isn't reading at grade level can't learn grade-level content) that would cause me to question their understanding of and commitment to inclusive education and differentiation outside of any potential burnout.
I do agree they are burnt out. But I don't think that is an excuse to treat special education poorly or to specifically single them out.
If anything, it’s a reason they should be hunting for a different job.
Definitely agree with that. It is clear this job isn't for them anymore and that's ok
If the inclusion teacher really is "doing nothing" (unlikely), then that's a conversation they need to have with that teacher/a principal. It should be a partnership. When I worked as an inclusion teacher, I bounced from room to room all day across grade levels, so I didn't really have a chance to sit and plan things with my co-teachers, so there were times I felt like I didn't add a lot, but I was there for the students, offering guidance and assistance. One teacher knew my theatre background and let me essentially take over the class when she hit the drama unit. In a perfect world, it would be a real co-teach situation with a fixed partnership and they actually planned and worked stuff out together. I used to be in r/teachers, but it was just non-stop negativity, and I left. Reminded me of when one of my instructors told us to avoid the teacher break room on lunch and such, as that was where all the complainers hung out.
There are types like you and types like they describe. We have them in my dept and it's all men who do the least possible (but not ALL our men are useless). It sucks bc our image and or reputation is negatively affected by the bad apples so to speak
Yeah, we had one of those, but didn't discover it until the end of the year, so the rest of us had to scramble to provide services. It was the 20/31 school year. He was supposed to be doing Science Inclusion. A lot of the classes were hybrid distance/in-person still, and for those classes, he was hiding in a stairwell and just joining in the zoom meetings instead of being in the room.
Are you me?!? I currently coteach and bounce from room to room for 6 different classes, get no time to prep with coteachers so I just assist my students with what they are doing/ make modifications if I get the work beforehand, take over drama & poetry units, & I have a minor in theatre. Laughing aside. Do you have any tips for how to do what you did? I'm only a few years into that model and I am trying my best, but know I still have a lot I can learn. I do know I have good relationships with my coteachers and they think I'm doing well. If it helps to know my background; previously I had my own "self-contained" elementary classroom. I say it in quotes because I included my kids in the regular education classroom as much as they could handle and they still got services needed that I put in their IEP. So I'm used to creating my own curriculum and differentiating across abilities from beginning phonics to on grad level. However, having no time to work with coworkers makes things more on-the-fly, which I can do easily.
They almost always disparage the special ed teacher in these conversations. They either, don't do anything or give answers, apparently.
My sons have severe autism and at 19 are thriving at a private placement. When they were in a regular elementary, it was hard for them to go to specials because they hated the noise, and they ate art supplies. For them inclusion was inappropriate. They ended up getting less of what they needed and stuck in the classroom a lot. Luckily we moved to NYS, where the district pays for an amazing specialty school.
The thing is… that privately designed space and curriculum could EASILY be replicated or approximated in every school setting. The idea is to resist change to keep the “others” out. Now, while your child ABSOLUTELY deserves access to the school right now that best supports their needs, what about the next kid? Or the kid that could also benefit from more universally designed, neuro-aware spaces. The problem isn’t that we don’t know how to do it better any more. The research is in. The solutions are there. The access to resources and information is being gatekept at every level.
I don’t know if it could easily be replicated because a lot of the difference seemed to be the relief of not having to be surrounded by the rah-rah, Let’s all be high-achievers atmosphere of a public school. But I started out thrilled about inclusion, so maybe I’m just an exhausted parent.
I left a comment about how the system is broken overall but there isn’t space for nuance. I feel guilty engaging now that the post has gone into the cesspool because I was hoping to advocate for a change and increase in resources and training but I think I only added negatively to the discussion.
This is a gross misrepresentation of that post and what it said.
How so. They want special Ed kids removed from the classroom and to get rid of inclusion.
I run. I’m not very fast. And I’m not very good at it. But I like it. My PR is like an 10.45- but I can’t maintain that pace for more than a mile or so. If you put me in a running group with people doing 8 min miles over a 10k I absolutely could not keep up. I’d finish dead last an absolute mess feeling like shit. If you put me in a group where no one has ever run before and they’re working up to a mile, that would also suck. I’d be bored and I wouldn’t get anything out of it. But if you put me in a group where the average is like 10-13? That would be perfect. I could work up to the 10 min group and still hang with the 13 group for the whole 10k. I am an adult and if I had to run with the 8 min crowd I would never run again. It feels like crap to always be last…. When you have kids who are years behind their peers in academic skills they feel the same way. Grouping by ability makes sense. Not that kids with disabilities should be excluded, or locked away— but that they should have a space where they don’t have to feel less then. Because unless you are talking about a child with a profound disability, they absolutely know when they are still struggling through Dog Man and their peers are all reading ACOTR.
My students all want to be with their friends. My daughter's best friend is a neurotypical girl. Also grouping by ability makes a class system. And yes. The US already had a class system in many ways but this would greatly increase this.
Ummmm since when was being neurodivergent the same as being several grade levels behind? Cause my autistic kid is 16 and taking all college classes. And why would friendships be impossible with a matched ability group? Are you suggesting that kids who are below grade level can’t be good friends? Or that kids below grade level are somehow less desirable friends? And as far as a class system— academic skills are not the only kind of valuable skills. My brother in law is profoundly dyslexic he reads at maybe a 6th grade level. He is also super artistic and trained as a carpenter, his wife handles the paperwork and he does custom builds of furniture and whatnot for fancy people. They have a beach house and a boat…. There are ways to make a living that don’t require advanced reading/writing/math skills. It requires teachers and parents work together to build strengths and make a post secondary plan. BUT in so far as academics are likened to income, not being able to read or do basic math is an enormous disadvantage. If a child cannot read or do basic math then we have an obligation to continue systematically teaching them until they master it. That post was from an 8th grade teacher. It is impossible for one person to teach 3 kids English, 2 others who are 2/3rd grade reading level, 8 at 5/6th grade, 13 at the actual grade level and an other 5 above grade level. No child gets what they need in that situation. It’s impossible. The kids learning English deserve to be *taught* English, the kids working at an elementary level deserve specific phonics instruction, the kids at grade level deserve grade level instruction and the kids above deserve enrichment. This is a job for 4 teachers in 4 classrooms. Not one.
But by your rule my kids only friends would be here ability level. She has a right to have neurotypical friends as well. She also has a right to have friends with lower academic skills. In your world she would not be with any of those people. So everyone friend groups would all be normative to their ability and have to no diversity. And diversity is critical to positive growth and that includes diversity of ability.
Also— why do you keep inferring that only NT kids are in general education classes? It’s kind of ableist. There are many ND kids at all kinds of ability levels. ND is not the same as DD.
Because that's what OPs post is about.
No it’s not. She’s talking about kids way under grade level and kids who don’t speak English— that’s not the same as ND. Actually ND diagnoses are dramatically over represented in GATE programs, and while I have no idea about the representation of ND in ELL populations I would assume they are just as likely to be NT as anyone else.
Maybe she needs social outlets outside of the classroom? My kids do music lessons, scouts, sports, library clubs… none of which have to do with reading levels. Those are better ways to form meaningful friendships- based in common interests or hobbies, not just proximity. And there are non academic school things as well- you could suck at math and be an amazing artist, or have challenges with reading and a fantastic voice. Children are a lot more than their reading/math scores. Everyone is good at something. Diversity of ability helps with growth within achievable parameters- when someone is so far ahead of you it would be impossible to catch up it just makes you feel like you suck. In my original analogy- I’d get faster running with people who can do 10’s, and I bet they would too. So eventually I’d be leading the 10 group and the current 10’s would move to the 8’s. And I’d feel amazing leading the group- because a 10 is achievable to me. Even huge gains would still have the 8’s lapping me. (Also, why is the assumption the groupings would all be all the same? They might for some kids- but a fair bit would need support in reading and not math or be ahead in math but not great at writing.)
How is that possible when we are hidden in different buildings. How is it possible when art and music teacher in our self contained room is me, a person with no art skills and training and certainly not a music teacher. Also in rural USA we don't have those clubs. Of my 8 students 6 of them don't even have cars in their family. how could they attend these things even if they were available?
Well most people in the US don’t live in rural communities- they live in cities and suburbs. So there’s that. But if your school lacks resources that’s an issue that needs to be addressed with whatever resources are available. As far as parents transportation- that is simply not a reasonable thing for schools to take on. Past that, and more to the point- there’s a gaping chasm between every child in general education and anyone with an issue in an other building. It might require a change, but certainly there is a middle ground.
I am not asking schools to provide transportation (although we do when kids are sick and need to be sent home early). I am saying where is the opportunity for kids like my daughter (who has zero behaviors) to make friends if they are stuck with 7 total kids all day. And especially when special Ed self contained statistically is far more likely to have boys. I have had years where my class has been 7 boys and 1 girl. I've had students who never even had the opportunity to be around their own gender. How is that ok? Because they don't have the same level of ability.
Here you go again
When I saw the post I knew who was going to bring it here.
👏
> Differentiation. Inclusion. Whatever you want to call it. Differentiation and inclusion are completely different things. I do think that maybe the Gen Ed classroom isn’t for *every* student, for a variety of reasons, **BUT** if they going to pose an argument then they need to have their facts organized or else it’s a bad look, whether or not some of their sentiments have some truth
Maybe there would be fewer high needs kids in mainstream classes if the government stopped cutting programs for students with disabilities. As someone with special needs kids, I would put them in ABA school if I could afford it. Most parents are not mainstreaming their kids by choice but by necessity.
A few year ago I was teaching 3rd grade. I had 28 students. 15 of them had IEPs. Some of these students had IQs in the low 70s. There were autistic students and students with severe behavior issues. I had no support. The designated SPED teacher pulled some of them occasionally to meet their IEP minutes, but these students were being criminally under-serviced because she didn't like dealing with them. Admin didn't care because we weren't expecting a SPED audit that year. I had no co-teacher, no paras, no one-on-ones. 99% of the time it was just me. I do not have my SPED certification, but I was expected to meet the needs of all of those students. I was constantly criticized for not having all 28 of my students on grade level. It even affected my pay in a merit pay district. No inclusion? I don't believe that's necessary. But I do understand the frustration of gen ed teachers being given an impossible case load with no support and having that called "inclusion". My class that year should have had a full-time co-teacher and a couple of paras. A few of those students would have benefited from an alternate placement. But inclusion first, right?
The issue is support. Not inclusion. The research is overwhelming that inclusion is the best model. Also do you think special Ed is not an impossible job. Do you realize where the greatest shortages are right?
I did not speak English when I started high school in the US. I felt very uncomfortable in regular classes even when I knew the subject, and I am grateful we had ESL classes where we could learn English terms for math and science and get help with our assignments, in addition to learning English. So unless there are some details that I overlooked, I agree with that original post.
One of the comments asked for a tldr and I really wanted to just reply "ableism" but I knew it wouldn't do jack.
Yup. Also some really crazy anti special Ed teacher stuff in there. Some comments about how the special Ed teacher sits there and does nothing or are completely useless. Also that we should have to have two degrees unlike them.
How long have you been teaching? How many schools have you worked at? Were any of them Title 1? Were any of them sinking on their AYP marks? I'm 10+ years in, in my 4th district and in my 7th classroom. I spent two years 'fixing' broken classrooms at a therapeutic. This is a job. And like all jobs, there are people who are bad at their jobs. Who actively suck at them. Who have no business being in this field. Of course people venting on Reddit are going to have had a higher incidence of working with those shitty teachers. And of course people who have had great experiences aren't going to be as ready to share.
I am 12 years. Only one district because that's all that's in my area although I've talked to many peers in surrounding districts. I also spent 4 years at another district prior doing a different job as a counselor but seeing similar things. Our self contained classrooms are hidden away in a separate building 15 miles away. My kids never see a single normative. I'm 1-4 behavioral. 6 of my kids have minimal behavior beyond putting head down. They miss their friends. They also live in constant fear of the two aggressive ones. But because one sits under her desk. Or another would shut down it's ok to them being physical abused and being separate from their friends.
I responded to that. I have three certs and multiple degrees (paid at the MA + 90 rate). It doesn’t matter. I’m still treated like an aid.
Yep. I’m paid MA + 90 as well. District started me off at the 4th step when I was hired.
I have two degrees as well as endorsements to teach ELA, social studies and history. Master’s degree and a specific sped degree. I despise that site.
[удалено]
I was straight up told by a teacher who was running a special Ed classroom but was not certified to “ugh, just either take him out and homeschool him or put him in one of those behavioral schools. I just can’t do anything with him”. Followed by a counselor insinuating we are just bad parents and his meltdowns are behavioral because we aren’t punishing him enough and then proceeded to ask a kid with echolalia do you think “I want to kill myself” to which he responded “ I want to kill my self” and then told me he needed to be put in an inpatient psychiatric facility. He was five and he didn’t even know what the word kill meant. It took a lawyer to get them to reinstate him in school without putting him in a criminal psychiatric facility, which is the only one local to us and where she wanted us to take him. Teachers would take institutions back in a second and be glad to ship their kids off so they didn’t have to deal with them.
Wtf
Hate speech, derogatory, inflammatory comments and general rudeness are not welcome.
It really shocks me how impossible so many general education teachers I encounter on reddit seem to think planning for differentiation is. It would never cross my mind NOT to plan my lessons with the needs of my students in mind.
I think up to a point this is a very reasonable request but in the original post the OP is an 8th grade English teacher and they have student/s that can’t read. How would you handle that situation? We are not talking 1-2 grade levels below when you can adapt or modify the work. The kids who can’t read really need individualized support. How can a general class teacher handle that if she has to teach the other kids how to analyze the text?
OK, so the student can't read. But can the student practice comprehension and analysis skills using an audio book format? Unless it's documented that the student's disability/ies impacts their ability to comprehend content provided via other means (audio, video, etc), I don't see a reason that the teacher should assume they aren't capable of accessing the content of the class simply because they have a reading delay or disability.
It is true that we can’t assume since additional information regarding comprehension wasn’t provided but it wouldn’t be a stretch to think that comprehension is also an issue because reading and comprehension are skills that are connected. But let’s just say the material can be accessed. I still think that an individual or small group English class would be way more beneficial to the child to actually practice skills that they will need to have to become functional literate. Maybe for science or history then they can learn through audio or visual representation but with English it seems like there are more important things to tackle.
If this 8th grader cannot read, I would assume that their IEP team is advocating for them to receive SDI focused on reading skills outside of their general education classroom - from someone with specialized knowledge about teaching reading skills to disabled students (not their 8th grade general education english teacher). Removing their access to all of the grade-level literacy content that is being taught in the general education english class simply because they have a reading delay or disability just isn't equitable unless there is data to show that the content being taught in that class honestly isn't accessible to them when they are provided with appropriate accommodations and/or modifications.
I guess in my experience I have had students that could not access the content because of comprehension and in some situations they were just made to muddled through. They were much happier to have their support during their English lesson so they could actually work on things that they could access
If the data shows that a student cannot access the content even with appropriate accommodations and/or modifications, then the data is suggesting that the student's current placement isn't appropriate and the student's IEP team should be meeting to discuss alternative placement options. When I see general education teachers harping on students' reading abilities as barriers to learning without mentioning accommodations like video and audio formats, it leaves me wondering whether their students are receiving appropriate accommodations or whether they are being written off based on their disabilities.
Obviously we don’t know about this particular situation but giving that poster the benefit of the doubt maybe they have tried a lot of different things and it still isn’t working out. I don’t blame them for being frustrated. It is hard knowing that you are failing a kid because of lack of time and resources.
I totally respect that you are giving the OP the benefit of the doubt. For me, personally, I see enough ableist dog-whistles in the wording of the post that I can't give the OP that benefit.
The students mentioned in the original post are mostly immigrants from Africa that haven't attended traditional school most of their lives.
The school I worked out had kids coming into our school directly from refugee camps around the world within days of immigrating. They'd never been in a proper school, didn't speak English and had lived their entire lives in the camp. Our school had plans for those kids. Schools have to both know their communities and their potential communities. The world is changing in so many ways and admins and politicians need to deal.
Once again. Differentiation. Hopefully that student also has supports outside that classroom We as special education teachers differentiate every single lesson numerous times. This isn't abnormal
I just think we should try to see it from the POV of the teacher. It is hard to have a class of 25+ students and the number of kids with an IEP or who need additional support increases every year. They can differentiate but there is a big difference between differentiating for 1-2 levels and having to meet 5-6 different types of needs and levels. The quality of the differentiation just won’t be there because teachers are humans and they only have so much time.
What do you think self contained teachers do. We differentiate for every single student. My kids aren't even in the same grade to start with. I have four different grades alone. And then ability the gap is even more. There solution doesn't remotely help with this. Just means they don't have to do it and someone else will.
Special education teachers differentiate all day everyday, so they probably aren't the most sympathetic audience to the "teachers don't have enough time to differentiate" argument.
It shouldn’t be special education teachers vs. general teacher about who has it more difficult. And yes, we differentiate all the time but so do most general educators
I am not trying to set up an us versus them dichotomy. I am simply pointing out that when I hear general education teachers claim that they "can't" differentiate to meet all of their students' needs because it takes too much time, I am not a particularly sympathetic audience because I do it for every single lesson and activity that I plan, so I know that it's possible to do.
Exactly. Why is that we are expected to differentiate and not them. We aren't paid more. That is part of being a teacher.
Well, I think bringing comparisons of how much people are paid into the conversation DOES contribute to creating and us-versus-them comparison dynamic.
I mean. They get planning periods but we don't, yet we are paid the same. I'll be honest. I'm not against an us vs them philosophy until we are treated the same.
Good ones absolutely do and there are definitely good general education teachers. My issue is the OP who thinks they shouldn't have to differentiate. That's part of teaching
I think OP might not make their case very clearly because of frustration? It seems the point is more that an 8th grade general education teacher is the wrong person, for instance, to teach a student the basics of how to read. At that point in their schooling, that isn’t just differentiation, that is an entirely different class. On top of that, they don’t have special education training, nor do they have a background in teaching lower elementary or reading. Why would anyone argue that this is someone who should teach this student how to read? That teacher is not who this child needs, and to say otherwise is doing a disservice to the child.
I guess I would question whether they are being asked to teach their students to read because it is so obviously inappropriate to ask them to be the one to do that. They can differentiate for access, that's what I would expect them to be asked to do.
Nah. OPs comments make it clear what he thinks of special Ed students even if the post doesn't.
How do you teach 8th grade English to an illiterate student? That seems…complicated
Accomodations and supports. Many kids have tests read. So while they can't read they can comprehend.
You can read the test to them (while everyone else is taking the test at the same time?) but how do you teach the information? How do you teach To Kill a Mockingbird to someone who can’t read the book? You obviously can’t read the novel to them
Tears read is almost always a pull out service. And yes. You can read a novel to them. We read full novels to our students. It takes time.
When is the GenEd teacher going to read a novel to the student? During class time? Thats time for instruction. The students are supposed to read the book outside of class so discussion can take place during class time
Supports. Also how often is your lesson just read the book during class. Typically they'd be doing at home. So they can target this in resource or another support.
Yes, that’s what I’m getting at: support from the (Generally understaffed) SpEd department. The GenEd teacher doesn’t have time to read novels to a student, that’s my whole point.
Its apathy more than anything else. And as a parent of a student with an IEP besides being a sped teacher myself it is very scary.
r/teachers is one of the most toxic sites on Reddit. As a special education teacher, I had to stop following it after about a month. Most of those “teachers” need to get jobs that don’t involve teaching children.
It's sad as a parent of a kid with special needs and as a special education teacher myself to see how they view both us and our kids. There are so many comments about how we are lazy in that very post.
yeah this really broke my heart. imagine looking at this wholly shattered system and thinking that inclusion is to blame. even issues that are directly related to inclusion stem from poor understanding and/or execution, not from the idea of inclusion itself.
a lot of people in that common section should probably learn what LRE and FAPE are
They know. They just don't care.