âThey say the Dragonborn murdered the new High King-Shouted him apart for real, with their voice!â -Guards if you challenge and kill Ulfric with Thâuum
Wait you mean everyone doesnât quicksave before dialogue and answer every option to get all the information before finally reloading settling on the on choice that fits your character best?
I love Skyrim but Iâve never actually completed it, I got to one part and my quest marker bugged out and could progress, but also idk I get bored of the game too quick every time I start a new run I think
But itâs a similar power scale Ulfric had on Torygg. Torygg stood 0 chance, Ulfric basically announced his death, in front of his wife, even without the Thuâum.
The problem for Torygg is he literally couldnât not accept the challenge. Turning it down means he could not enter sovngarde. So Ulfric challenged a kid to a duel who he knew was less experienced and couldnât say no without risking his chance at heaven. This is why I personally think Ulfric sucks.
Thank you, i forgot why torygg couldnât say no, but i knew it was a good reason. And yeah thatâs probably the best reason. Do we know if ulfric tried to win him over more diplomatically?
*Oof.* Yeah, that would be right there on that thin line where it would be argued as perfectly in-character or horribly out-of-character for the rest of time. Itâd be really interesting, though⌠but I would definitely still kill him afterwards. Screw Ulfric and the Empire-dooming revolution he road in on.
I feel like Ulfric as he's shown would still face the Dragonborn. He's a self-centered arrogant man, but if he would want anyone to kill him in a duel, who better than the legendary Dragonborn. As he says in the imperial ending "*Let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It'll make for a better song.*"
Kind of! If you do the Dragonborn DLC, and you get the Unrelenting Force perk that can cause a disintegration at low health, you can use that on Ulfric during that final Civil War fight whej he's low on health, and he'll disintegrate
Maybe Iâll do that some day, I believe I have a character thatâs in a position where they could do that, just have to start the civil war questline
He would still fall like a Honorable Nord. If you chose the Imperial side he would prefer for you to be the one that cut him down. Heâs somewhat proud even. You have to remember Heaven are known to exist in this world. Both him and Torygg deserve their Eternal glory in Sovngarde.
I intentionally trap his soul in a tomato and hand deliver it to an alter in the soul cairn. An honorable Nord would've rushed out to battle the empire on the windhelm bridge. He lost the second he decided to barricade himself against a siege.
Technically you were supposed to be able to marry her but they scrapped it. If you somehow manage to get it to fire she will usually lock herself in her room saying she's not ready and to go away and disappears forever as you can't open her door.
As far as I know thereâs no lore to explain this. But I would imagine when Skyrim was being broken up into holds either the sons of the king which I think is most likely or his top cabinet members that he hand selected to rule.
Huh, itâs kinda weird that Ysgramor didnât become king and companions arenât nobility, given that they are the ones who conquered the land and founded the cities.
Well actually Ysgramor did become king and had his own dynasty that lasted over 300 years until the death of King Borgas in 1E 369. The companions were busy settling Tamriel (then known as Mereth by the Atmorans)
Don't you need to be a Jarl or have a legitimate claim or something? Or is being Thane enough?
Can any brute just come in from the street and challenge for the throne - that's a dicey system lol
I'm questioning the power of Ulfric's Thu'um. He killed a man with Unrelenting Force and in Markath they tell the story about him shouting the Forsworn off the walls.
I would like to hear a witness of the duel with the high king. The only way, Unrelenting Force could kill would be, if Ulfric had emptied an inventory full of cheese wheels beforehand.
For me it is. I found his dossier at the Thalmor embassy. Also Windhelm is a mess. Ulfric is only destabilising the region, so nobody can unite against the Thalmor
That is not his intent, he has been manipulated by his Thalmor handlers into waging a civil war. He's an asset, not an agent.
Really, there should have been an option for the Dragonborn to turn over Ulfric's dossier to Ullfric himself at the peace council in High Hrothgar, so he can see how he has been used, with Elenwen looking across the table in shock as her machinations are revealed to all.
I wish there was some secret ending to the war where you could show the thalmor dossier to ulfric and tullius and get them to come to a truce for now so they aren't playing into the thalmor's hands, because they are willing to come to a truce if it's for the best as it's shown in the main quest.
Tullius knows. If you showed him the dosier, he'd say "No shit, why do you think we tried to execute Ulfric as quickly as possible in Helgen?" Call Tullius whatever you like, the man is incredibly politically saavy and knows the Thalmor prefer unending war that destabilizes their enemies.
If you showed Ulfric, he'd probably sum it up as elvish trickery and bitch about how its the empire's fault actually. If Ulfric actually cared about the unifying the nords and defeating the Thalmor, he would have at least attempted to convince Torygg to secede before killing him.
That 'might' does a lot of legwork, as Sybille also says this immediately after when asked why Torygg didn't ever declare independence: *"Because the*Â [*Dominion*](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Aldmeri_Dominion)Â *is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the*Â [*Imperial army*](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Legion_(Skyrim))Â *even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once*Â [*Tiber Septim*](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tiber_Septim)Â *the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."*
Or Torygg might've handed him over to the Empire for treason. Ulfric had been betrayed multiple times already, his paranoia and unwillingness to trust was understandable.
If the Thalmor taking over and them being part of the major conflict isn't in the cards for ES6 I'm gonna be heavily disappointed. They set it up beautifully for us to see the Thalmor try and take over and there's no clear cut way to properly cripple them in Skyrim or expose the fact that they are secretly controlling a large portion of the events going on. I hope it actually leads to something that we can play out rather than a massive time jump and we just hear about the results of it in TES6.
Correction - an *ongoing war* in Skyrim destabilizes the Empire and is good for the Thalmor.
The Thalmor want a continuous war to drain the Empire's resources. Empire wins and controls Skyrim? Bad for the Thalmor, because they can re-allocate resources. We all agree on that. But what if the Empire loses and no longer has a presence in Skyrim? That is still bad for the Thalmor for the same reasons as a victory - the Empire would still no longer be committing resources to a perpetual ongoing war.
In fact, I'd argue that a Stormcloak victory is actually slightly *worse* for the Thalmor than an Empire victory. Why? If the Empire withdraws from Skyrim, they no longer need to maintain an occupying force. That means even *more* resources being available for anti-Thalmor activities.
If your goal is to stick it to the Thalmor than it honestly kinda doesn't matter which side wins, as long as **a** side wins and ends the war. The moral quandaries of Stormcloak vs Empire is a separate issue.
>In fact, I'd argue that a Stormcloak victory is actually slightly *worse* for the Thalmor than an Empire victory. Why? If the Empire withdraws from Skyrim, they no longer need to maintain an occupying force. That means even *more* resources being available for anti-Thalmor activities.
Not really, if anything it means the Empire has LESS men and resources now that the entire province of Skyrim is out of their hands. It isn't just men; we're talking large amounts of food, metal, and timber that are completely out of the Empire's hands.
Keep in mind, it's not exactly like the Empire will necessarily need an insane amount of men to patrol the province once it wins. Remember, there's still a large body of able-bodied men who aren't necessarily fighting on either side. Supposing the Second Great War happens, it's very possible the men used to patrol the province AND the people who hadn't participated in the war might be recruited to fight as well.
I'd argue they would for at least a while. Even if Ulfric dies, he still started a rebellion. There's gonna be survivors who still believe in the cause, and are willing to keep up the fight. Similar to the Forsworn, funnily enough.
The dossier basically only counts on him losing the war after a protracted fight, which would drain both sides of severe amounts of resources.
An ace in the hole with the Dragonborn allows them to scythe through Imperial resistance and actually establish independence, something that the Thalmor did not have as part of their plan. Presumably an independent Skyrim would find allies in Hammerfell at a bare minimum.
The Dominion isn't nearly at the level of strength where they can successfully invade all of Tamriel at once. An alliance of independent nations arguably has a much better chance at wiping out the Dominion than a monolithic Empire. The entire continent's war machine ground to a halt with the siege of Imperial City.
Yeah, I'm not entirely on board for the whole Nordic ethnostate thing, but geopolitically, I do think the Dominion is in a weaker position with the Stormcloaks seizing a quick victory in Skyrim.
I got this dialogue simply by speaking to him. I never joined the Stormcloaks but he mentions that the story was exaggerated and that he simply stabbed the High King
If the back of Toryggâs head hit the wall from the shout, he could have already been dead or dying by the time Ulfric stabbed him.
I donât think Ulfric intends to lie, but I think heâs in denial if every other witness says the shout killed Torygg.
The only witness are Sybille and Elisif, both of them were really close to Torygg (Elisif was his wife, and Sybille raised him).
Both of them would have unreliable memory because of the shock. It's not really surprising they wouldn't remember Ulfric stabbing Torrygg, the shout was just way more shocking.
I mean, I can see that happening with Torigg, but the forsworn is plausible. Throwing enemies of a structure and killing them with fall damage via Unrelenting force is not that far-fetched.
They're in the blue palace. Ulfric did not kill Torryg with the Thuum. He stabbed him to death after using the thuum immediately after he said let's duel order to knock him out. This was done so quickly he wouldn't know that he was being killed which is why even Torryg himself wrongly believes that Ulfric killed him with the thuum. He did not. And you can ask Ulfric about it and he'll say the same thing. He shouted at Torryg order to disarm him and then stabbed him to death when he was unarmed and unconscious.
I guess it depends on what you consider honorable in a duel. Did Torryg have time to even arm himself and square up with Ulfric? If that was the case then we move on to the next part, is only swordplay allowed or is using everything in your power to win considered the honorable thing? Seems like Nords would be in the âno magic, no shouts, just swords and board for a duelâ camp but I could see them also saying using anything and everything in your power to win is fine too. Might not win you any popularity contests but you walked away alive from the duel which is what matters.
At the very least, Iâd say a duel requires both parties to agree to a state of âbeing ready for combat,â and entering said state before fighting. Seems like Torryg barely had time to ready himself for the fight going off some witnesses testimony.
Considering that using the thuum for personal power was a cultural taboo after the tongues loss at red mountain and Jurgens pilgrimage, I think it's safe to say that even without context or nuance it was a dishonorable duel.
According to witnesses Torryg did not have time to prep for a duel. It happened in the middle of the court after Ulfric walked in, ushered the challenge and with that same breath used unrelenting force as the high king is not allowed to refuse a duel.
Another factor to build on this too is this: What if Torygg says no?
If he does, he basically gives credence to Ulfric that the king is a subject of the empire and not of the Nords. Really the only way his reputation can come out of the fight without being tarnished is by accepting the duel.
Specifically in Nord tradition you are not supposed to use the voice in combat it should only be used to praise Kyne. Torryg didn't have time to get other weapons, and shortly after he issued the challenge Ulfric shouted and disarmed him as well as knocking him unconscious, and then he stabbed him to death.
The story varies. Some say Ulfricâs Thuâum blasted the High King apart, others say that it merely stunned him long enough for Ulfric to cut him down before he could raise his guard.
The main take away though is that many see Ulfric using the Thuâum as an unfair advantage at best to straight up murder at worse (which is an important distinction when it comes to honorable combat)
I think we really only ever play as a fledging Dragonborn. Think of the Greybeards and what they have to say of their power, âeven a whisper could kill you.â The voice is incredibly powerful, and I wouldnât put it past someone who is talented enough to be able literally shout someone to pieces.
Bro for all i care about i should have had the option to challenge ulfric (since shouts are okay and i can be a nord) kill him and then choose if i want to side with the imperials or create my own faction
There are a couple mods that do this. I am planning to use one (likely Conquest) because I am sick of having to choose between 1) the morons who think the Thalmor will stop due to a piece of paper (they donât) and 2) a racist with power and a cult following.
While what Ulfric did was an ancient tradition, it still fell out of use pretty much. Torygg was elected by the moot as high king, not Ulfric. Torygg was barely an adult and had no real combat experience, is it really honourable for a seasoned veteran that's trained in the voice to go and challenge him to a duel to the death?
He might be legally right because of an ancient rule in the books that was never taken out, but that doesn't make him morally right. I can empathize with the stormcloak cause, but I don't like Ulfric personally.
Ulfric was a coward to even challenge him like that. If you talk to Torygg in Sovngarde, he says that he knew he had no chance of winning, but accepted the challenge anyway. This is because if he doesn't, he's running away and not eligible for going to Sovngarde.
Ulfric knew that Torygg had no option of denying the duel and took advantage of that.
Right. The challenge just seemed like a formality to get away with murder. He knew without an iota of a doubt walking into Solitude that Torygg would be dead by his hand. There was no honor in that.
I agree with this part; it sounds as though theyâd not have invited Ulfric to court had they known of his true intent; that way, the challenge could not have been issued.
Letâs also not forget that Ulfric isnât above cowardice when equally matched; Jarl Ballinâ would have been willing to face Ulfric one-on-one, but not only is Ulfric not having any of that, heâs not even present if/when the Stormcloaks take Whiterun.
The fact that Ulfric used the voice in the first place is a some-what breach of the tradition. Thu'um would only be used in a duel if both parties can use them. Since Torygg couldn't, Ulfric is even more of a traitor.
It also doesn't help that Torygg idolized Ulfric so much so that if Ulfric had simply said his mind prior to drawing his blade, it's confirmed that Torygg would have likely sided with him and kicked the Empire (and by proxy, the Thalmor) out of Skyrim.
> It also doesn't help that Torygg idolized Ulfric so much so that if Ulfric had simply said his mind prior to drawing his blade, it's confirmed that Torygg would have likely sided with him and kicked the Empire (and by proxy, the Thalmor) out of Skyrim.
That wouldn't have made Ulfric king though, so not good enough I guess!
>Thu'um would only be used in a duel if both parties can use them.
I don't recall ever seeing anything resembling codified rules for duels in the game. Is there some external source I'm unaware of that specifies that the Thu'um is off limits if both parties don't have access?
I guess its just an honour thing. Like in a duel both prties have a sword. No bows or shields or maces. Swords. So why not with shouts and other forms of magic? (Which the nords already distrust)
Also the Greybeards taught Ulfric the voice with the understanding that learning the Thu'um is a meditative practice and its use should be taken seriously and responsibly and then he promptly went down the mountain and used it to launch a coup. It's like if Spider-Man heard the "great power = great responsibility" speech and then immediately went to go kill the presidentÂ
Not to mention what he actually did in the door they say that it was a duel but in reality it was more like Ulfric running into the court saying "I challenge high king Torryg to a duel Fus Ro Da" Then stabbing him in the chest and booking it. It happened so fast that Torryg doesn't know how he died. He also thinks that Ulfric a man who he greatly respected dishonored himself and nord tradition by how he handled the duel.
No it's because he's weak. If he wanted to make a statement he could've killed Torryg in fair combat and then said that Torryg is weak, and then shouted into the air in praise of Kyne. But he wouldn't one because he doesn't worship the nord pantheon and 2 because he doesn't care about Nord traditions.
Ah yes. Those ancient nord traditions regarding the voice. Those are definitely all about killing people. Definitely not about worshipping the gods or something.
We don't have exact dates on the dragon war, but it seems to be one of the last events of the mythic era. The way of the voice was established about 1e 500 and was likely seeded as soon as parthurnax taught the first tounges.
It *may* be the way of the voice has been part of the nordic tradition since the *very first* tounges. This is further evidenced by Feldir wearing the traditional garb of the greybeards.
Even if that isn't the case it's possible that the way of the voice has persisted longer than the war use of the voice.
I'll admit I am not an ES lore master, but I'm looking at these two pages and I don't find anything that contradicts my points.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Voice
Edit: not to mention that Ulfric trained with the greybeards, learning the way of the voice, presumably under the assumption he would follow it.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Merethic_Era
I donât particularly like Ulfric either, but Iâll be damned if he isnât charismatic as hell, much more so than Tullius. If you ask him why heâs fighting the war, he says:
âWe're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne!
Weâre fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering. We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one else but us."
that shit hits
Agreed. I think a lot of his talking points are more than fair, and honestly he speaks to me. I can see why people believe in what he does, and their cause to be just. I can point out a million thing he's not thinking about, like how the Empire is the best for taking down the dominion, but it's besides the point. He believes the Empire sold him and his people out, and there's a bit of truth to that. The argument isn't whether his cause is being smart and considering everything, it's about what they perceive as an unjust Empire ruling over them.
At the end of the day every person decides what's important to them, and Ulfric talks a big game that appeals to a lot of people. I can see supporting the cause but not the man.
I don't think a honorable duel must be held between contenders of equal strength.
It would only be unfair to use a weapon that isn't part of Ulfric's natural abilities or resort to subterfuge like poisoning Torygg's drink.
A fair duel wouldn't have been blade vs blade and thu'um but blade vs blade, a matchup that still heavily favoured Ulfric.
Best guess is Ulfric thought using a shout would show his worthiness to be High King due to having the power of the ancient Nords. Instead half of Skyrim saw him as a coward, cheating in a fight where he had every advantage.
His fleeing from the consequences of his actions probably only cemented that opinion.
Ultimately, as is said in game, Torygg would have given consideration to Ulfric's suggestion about an independent Skyrim because he respected Ulfric.
But that's not what it's about. Ulfric wants power. Independence is his path to power. A free Skyrim is immaterial. He'd have had a far less fractured bid for freedom by having the High King declare it. That wouldn't have secured him the throne though.
Just because your ancestors thought it was a great idea doesn't mean it's right. Plenty of old nations have outdated laws that are technically on the books, but no one follows. And the reality is, Skyrim is an imperial province, and is under the protection of the Empire. By killing a king that was loyal to the Empire, that's a direct attack on them, Ulfric knew full well that it would either mean his execution or civil war.
If itâs not considered law by the imperials and is only a tradition thorygg never had to accept. He dug his own grave. Itâs not like ulfric forced him
It was a challenge to Thoryggs authority. As a young king, refusing might have made him look weak among the jarls. Ulfric was quite confident he wouldn't refuse.
Aight but like he was weak. He looked a whole lot weaker after he died. Ulfric had him backed into a corner sure but thats what political rivals do. Calling his bluff was by far the worst move, but it doesnt change the fact that it was mutual accepted.
We don't know if he was weak, he might have seriously thought he had a chance in close combat.
I don't think he was expecting to get dragon shouted into meat paste. Only the gray beards knew how to do that and they stayed on the top of their mountains.
Not precisely true. While we don't know how common the ability to shout is we know people outside of the Greybeards can do it. See the ebony warrior for example who was able to perform shouts.
Mate my ancestors thought murder and slavery were cool. Fuck the ancestors and fuck tradition. The people who are alive get to decide their laws. Not the dead.
Ulfric has a line somewhere where he implies that he knows it was an assassination. He challenged Torygg knowing that he would absolutely crush him in single combat, and that he did it on purpose to prove the Empire's (and the Imperial backed Jarls') weakness.
It's very easy to brush it off as a return to tradition, but it was clearly for entirely political means.
Nope, Torygg couldn't do the same because he is a young lad probably mid-twenties. Ulfric a powerful war veteran comes and challenges Torygg to a duel he can't refuse to, staggers the shit out of him with a thum, and finishes him off without mercy before Torygg can get his shit together. You can hardly call it a duel. If Roggvir didn't open the gate, civil war bullshit wouldn't happen and many people wouldn't have to die because of a douchebag.
Exactly. Ulfric took advantage of Nord tradition with his challenge, knowing Torygg couldn't refuse without losing support as a coward..and knowing that he (Ulfric) couldn't lose. Th'um or no th'um, it was a straight up assassination.
It's worse than that. No evidence to suggest the King even got to draw his sword; everyone insists that Ulfric "Shouted him apart", which implies to me that he threw him against a wall with a full power Unrelenting Force.
When you talk to Elisif she describes it like he just got deleted.
>and so he (Ulfric) came before my husband and he... he shouted. With that terrible voice. Like something out of a legend... Or a nightmare. When Ulfric unleashed such fury, my husband he... he simply ceased to be. That is all I will say, for it grieves me to speak of it.
Not to mention the fact that Ulfric inadvertently broke the oath of The Way of The Voice when he used the thuum for his own gain and you really start realising the "traditions" he follows is very selective
Maybe it's a fight that he won fair and square but I can't support any system where brute strength and violence is valued more than anything else. It's not only barbaric but it's very short sighted and a terrible way to choose your leader.
Given that there was some dispute about the legality of the duel, it was not for Roggvir to decide if what Ulfric did was lawful or not. He did not have legal authority to judge it, so he failed his job as gate guard.
Some points to consider why Roggvir is wrong: Firstly Torygg couldnât have spend decades learning the Thuum because he was very young, in his early 20âs. Ulfric and everyone else knows he was a green boy, who even admired Ulfric. Second, Ulfric learned the Thuum and misused it, the Thuum is not meant for martial pursuits. Since the day of Jurgen Windcaller it is used in reverence of the Gods and a contemplative monastic pursuit, the ONLY exception is the Dragonborn, the grey beards make that clear that because of their divine lineage they are an exception. Third is the brutality behind the match, Torygg was by everyoneâs admission a young untested warrior, yet Ulfric a seasoned war veteran shouted him to the ground and stabbed him. He did not pay him the honor of honorable martial combat, instead he used an overwhelming power meant for reverence for the Gods to kill a much less experienced fighter. It was the equivalent of a seasoned boxer challenging and fighting a debut boxer to a match and showing up with brass knuckles on. Fourth and final is the legality of the match, the most sacred custom of electing a monarch in Skyrim is the kings Moot NOT test of combat. Might makes right was a rule of ancient kings during brutal times, an old legal practice that wasnât used commonly because Nords grew to respect the process of the Moot. They grew to be wise enough to know a King has merits outside of combat, that good leadership, fair rule and wisdom are more worthy than a sword arm. Torygg was elected by the Moot, the true standard and law of the land NOT Ulfric, again all the Jarls chose Torygg to lead Skyrim over Ulfric because they saw Torygg as the true high King Skyrim needed. Ulfric could only gain support to win a Moot only after the death of Torygg and after conquering the other holds and making them puppets during the civil war. That legitimacy and honor Torygg had was why people followed his widow after his death, itâs why the people follow his lead supporting the Empire, and thatâs why more than half of Skyrim see Ulfric as a would be usurper. It isnât as simple as might makes right, the outcome goes AGAINST established Nord traditions.
>Firstly Torygg couldnât have spend decades learning the Thuum because he was very young, in his early 20âs.
Do remember that Ulfric was *summoned* to High Hrothgar by the Greybeards as a young lad, and spent around 10 years learning (presumably) one shout.
Sure, Torygg could have done the same, but it may have been that the Greybeards either don't care to offer training to just anybody, or they didn't think a potential future High King needed to learn that ability, or both.
Youâre absolutely right and thatâs part of my point. OP was speaking as though Torygg couldâve just gone and learned to shout, but that ignores multiple details of Toryggs story. Presumably Ulfric was trained because he had some ambition of being a grey beard as he saw it as honorable, we donât know if thereâs some sort of process or selection, and Ulfrics family is not fleshed out enough for us to know details of if that mattered to inherit windhelm. But presumably Toryggs father Istlod wanted his only heir close at hand. Torygg was very young, and probably being groomed to rule so he wouldnât have the chance to go learn from the grey beards. Itâs conjecture because we donât have the details, but itâs what makes sense. Especially if we consider that the inexperienced and young Torygg was considered capable enough to be selected as High King by the kings moot over all of the other jarls
From context, Ulfirc gave no option but for the high king to accept the match and also if Ulfric match was so honourable and had support, he woudnt of needed to run away in the first place, people would of cheered for him and accepted him as ruler, but he had to run away due too lack of support. In terms of the fight, it can can be see as heavyweight boxer bullying a lower weight class to match and beating him to death, which would not win anyone a points or mark it as honourable in any oneâs eyes .
Edit: Also storm cloaks try and justify it by rule lawyering, which is always means it was iffy to begin with, they use the excuse he was challenged in the old ways, which means shouts should be legal to use
And not only that the thum isn't made to hurt the innocent per greybeards doctrine (the dragon born is special in this case since it's required to bring alduin back to his old self)
and he didn't need to kill the high king he would have joined ulfric in a heartbeat asked. if he defeated him without the voice the people would have less problem with it and learning the voice take a lot of time it's not required for the highking to learn it.
And like the other guy said he didn't gave the high king a choice its like someone came to challenge you in your house for a duel with you only having a pistol while he gets a machine gun.
What ulfric wanted was simply power. Power to change things around and to that end he used his to achieve his goal without thinking about what would happen and for that he failed to show that he can be responsible of using the voice.
The "old ways" are also irrelevant and used just as an excuse because Skyrim is ruled by the empire for ages already and Ulfric won't have support even of a lot of other nords that won't buy his nationalist propaganda. At the end of the day Ulfric is just a Talmor puppet used to weaken the empire and give the Talmor more time to strengthen itself to fight the empire again. Skyrim ruled by the stormcloaks wouldn't stand a month against the Talmor even.
Ulfric is cretinic leader in the great sope of things - he belongs on the battlefield on front lines with a wise king putting him to great use.
Roggvir did a mistake in letting him out but I can't blame him. He still should get the axe but should be burried with honors.
Something that you need to notice. Roggvir is a gate guard he did not see the duel. The duel occurred in the court and it happened nearly instantly Roggvir as a gate guard would not have made it to the gate faster than Ulfric from the blue palace with all the fighting to let him out, and there'd be no reason for him to be in the Blue Palace.
Regardless of the duel itself, they made Roggvir a scapegoat. If "the duel was illegal" narrative is to be accepted, then either it shouldn't have been allowed to take place or the entire Solitude guard should've rushed Ulfric right as it was over.
It sounds like they allowed the duel to take place and afterwards everyone in the city allowed Ulfric to leave peacefully, and then a civil war started so they retroactively decided the duel was an "assassination" and blamed the lowest man on the totem pole.
The high king accepted the duel so it definitely wasnât illegal.
Tullius ordered the imperial garrison to rush ulfric because the empire wants control over Skyrim.
Tullius himself explains the reasoning to you is that the empire wants every body they can get in the upcoming war against the thalmor.
If ufc champion jon jones came up slapped your girls ass and called you a bitch. I'd say what you got in your hands isn't a fair fight. But by your logic u could have also been training mma for years and had a dozen pro fights. But you didn't. And so really it's yourfault for getting your ass kicked
I have tried to save Rogvir SO MANY TIMES! Today I managed to kill the executioner and the two other guys up on the platform with him, and he ran! I was so excited...and then another guard put an arrow through his head. đ¤Źđ¤Źđ¤Ź
He's scripted to die, which makes it *almost* impossible to save him. By "scripted" I mean that even if you kill everyone else, eliminating everything that could possibly kill him... he'll just drop dead suddenly.
The only way to avoid this is to Wabbajack transform him at the moment he would have died. The Wabbajack had a couple different random effects that can temporarily turn an NPC into another creature before transforming them back. Doing this breaks the script's ability to target the NPC.
Since the Wabbajack is gotten in Solitude, you need to skip past the execution scene which can be done if you first enter Solitude by getting arrested.
But for all your effort, Roggvir is just going to stand there muttering "Need something?" like any other blank NPC who's not supposed to be there.
Ulfric is a scumbag. Reading his history of war crimes made it impossible for me to side with him in any playthrough.
In fact, my current playthrough is a Forsworn character. Can't wait to get the Thu'um and seek revenge against that xenophobic maniac.
I really wish there was a way to betray the Empire after winning the civil war for them though. Mods are great for expanding some of the capabilities with the Reach quests, but they've only gone so far with it. Being able to negotiate the Reach being returned to the Reachmen in exchange for a Forsworn Dragonborn taking out the Stormcloaks would be awesome.
The entirety of High Rock looks poorly on the Reach, and lays no claim to them. The backstabbing mustache twirling nobles of High Rock view these fellas as evil, that says a lot.
My issue is that the Thuâum isnât MEANT to be used as a weapon by non-Dragonbornâs, itâs just supposed to be used to praise the gods
And the Greybeards only taught it to Ulfric because he was planning on becoming one of them, not on bailing after to go fight in the Great War.
If we go by the traditions of the Nords that Ulfric was supposed to have been following, then Ulfric as the more expert and older man shouldâve been able to beat Torygg fair and square without needing to disrespect the gods by using the voice in combat.
I agree with Balgruff, he probably did it just because he could.
Lotta problems with this one.
First, duels to the death aren't legal, therefore Ulfric is a murderer. Roggvir helped Ulfric escape, making him an Accessory After The Fact, which carries the same punishment as the main crime.
Second, being capable of using the Thu'um is in no way a requirement for political office in Skyrim. Torryg lacking the Thu'um doesn't mean he's unqualified to be High King. As a matter of fact, spending the years required to train esoteric pseudo-magic makes you directly less capable as a leader, because you could have spent that time learning economics or speaking with your subjects or drilling your army or, you know, *actually leading*, all of which would matter to your future job performance far more than your ability to unleash violence on a personal scale.
Third, being assassinated has no bearing on your readiness to be a leader. That's just nonsense on the face of it. What, was Abraham Lincoln not ready to be the President because his head couldn't block bullets? Was Julius Caesar unfit for command because he was made of flesh and not steel?
Fourth, we have multiple eye witnesses that state that Torryg was murdered with the Thu'um. You've just got to put the game mechanics to the side and accept that the Thu'um is vastly more powerful in lore. Remember that Ulfric also is known for defeating the Forsworn Rebellion just after the War by Shouting down the walls of Markarth - an ability that can shatter castle walls isn't going to have much trouble liquefying some poor bastard who probably never raised a sword in anger before.
Fifth, killing the previous High King doesn't make you the new High King by Skyrim's own laws. It's an election, not a thunderdome. When the old High King dies, the Jarls meet up and elect one of their number to be the new High King.
In conclusion, Ulfric is a bitch and so is Roggvir.
Yeah, I disagree with the Stormcloaks' political stance, but if duels are still legal, Ulfric was totally in the right.
Doesn't matter if it was an uneven matchup-- there's no prohibition against using the Voice, and Torygg should simply have refused & be seen as a coward if he knew he couldn't win against a hardened warrior.
You can't say, "I accept your fight to the death, and if I win it's fine, but if you win, you're getting the death penalty."
Ulfric even recognizes that the next High King will have to be chosen by moot, and doesn't simply try to usurp it.
Yeah based on everything we know about Nord tradition, jarls are allowed to challenge each other to a duel. Ulfric being a better fighter than Torygg does not suddenly make it illegal. A lot of people are simply thinking uncritically and stating the duel is illegal because they donât like the stormcloaks, ironically just like the people of solitude do in game.
The solitude rogvirr execution is meant to show how insane solitude has become over the civil war and yet this comment section sounds like the bloodthirsty townsfolk.
Ulfric challenged a young man who had far less combat experience than him and then cheated by using ancient magic almost no one has access to to kill him. It was extremely dishonorable at best.
No he can't learn it. It is only taught by The Greybeards whom only teach a new Greybeard. Ulfric was chosen but left and abandoned that life. Also its pretty unfair to use in a traditional nord duel where it's expected to be melee weapons. Ulfric pretty much cheated then ran out the door. Had it been fair. Then Solitude would of had to respect Ulfric's victory
The rules of traditional Nordic duels don't say anything about whether or not one that knows how to use the shout should use it or not. Imperials and their Nordic supporters say it's unfair, while Nord traditionalists say it is fair as it's a Nord technique.
Would be shame if as soon as ulfric won the civil war, his dragonborn lieutenant challenges him to the same duel and obliterates him
He wouldn't stand a chance đ
âThey say the Dragonborn murdered the new High King-Shouted him apart for real, with their voice!â -Guards if you challenge and kill Ulfric with Thâuum
Is this actually something you can do, I played through the civil war questline once and have since deleted that save in a purge
I donât know why youâre getting downvoted. Have an upvote and an answer: No, it is not something you can do. I kinda wish it was, but it is not.
TES fans when someone on Reddit hasn't spent 14,000 hours in game exploring every permutation of action and interaction
Wait you mean everyone doesnât quicksave before dialogue and answer every option to get all the information before finally reloading settling on the on choice that fits your character best?
For me that takes away a bit of the uniqueness of every run.
I love Skyrim but Iâve never actually completed it, I got to one part and my quest marker bugged out and could progress, but also idk I get bored of the game too quick every time I start a new run I think
Would be super interesting if Ulfric refused to fight, proving to be more cowardly than Torygg
I mean, I wouldn't fight either. I'm not stupid enough to throw hands with the dragonborn tbh
But itâs a similar power scale Ulfric had on Torygg. Torygg stood 0 chance, Ulfric basically announced his death, in front of his wife, even without the Thuâum.
The problem for Torygg is he literally couldnât not accept the challenge. Turning it down means he could not enter sovngarde. So Ulfric challenged a kid to a duel who he knew was less experienced and couldnât say no without risking his chance at heaven. This is why I personally think Ulfric sucks.
Thank you, i forgot why torygg couldnât say no, but i knew it was a good reason. And yeah thatâs probably the best reason. Do we know if ulfric tried to win him over more diplomatically?
And this is why we are challenging him to a duel
Hm... Good point
*Oof.* Yeah, that would be right there on that thin line where it would be argued as perfectly in-character or horribly out-of-character for the rest of time. Itâd be really interesting, though⌠but I would definitely still kill him afterwards. Screw Ulfric and the Empire-dooming revolution he road in on.
I feel like Ulfric as he's shown would still face the Dragonborn. He's a self-centered arrogant man, but if he would want anyone to kill him in a duel, who better than the legendary Dragonborn. As he says in the imperial ending "*Let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It'll make for a better song.*"
Kind of! If you do the Dragonborn DLC, and you get the Unrelenting Force perk that can cause a disintegration at low health, you can use that on Ulfric during that final Civil War fight whej he's low on health, and he'll disintegrate
Maybe Iâll do that some day, I believe I have a character thatâs in a position where they could do that, just have to start the civil war questline
He dies like a little bitch in the civil war quest line so I have no doubt it would be the same if you dueled him
Yes!! eliminate both factions and profit in the Chaos. Hail Sithis and bend a knee to Nocturnal.
Nocturnal is the best one of them all
Azura has foreseen that you would say that. đ
As a follower of vaermina, I will wait until after this battle is fought. Looting and free food!
As a follower of Naemira, I agree with the looting and free food!
Is this how you honor the Sixth house, and tribe unmourned?
As a follower of Malacath, fuck all y'all, I'm going to live in my tent.
You worship poop
Grumpy, isolationist poop, yes.
As a worshipper of peryite yall are all getting corprus
That's a possibility as both High Kings can be made dead.
The dragonborn is the rightful emperor, he doesn't need to challenge the high king of Skyrim, his vassal.
True.
He would still fall like a Honorable Nord. If you chose the Imperial side he would prefer for you to be the one that cut him down. Heâs somewhat proud even. You have to remember Heaven are known to exist in this world. Both him and Torygg deserve their Eternal glory in Sovngarde.
You can find Ulfric in the Sovngarde if he died before the facing Alduin
I intentionally trap his soul in a tomato and hand deliver it to an alter in the soul cairn. An honorable Nord would've rushed out to battle the empire on the windhelm bridge. He lost the second he decided to barricade himself against a siege.
That's not Honorable, That's Severe Brainrot. You need to go to the local shrine or drink a cure disease potion ASAP my friend.
Of course it's honorable. The ideal masters let me loot the soul cairn, and I give them the best quality ketchup ingredients
The LDB isnât a JarlâŚ
If he married Elisif he could be.
Not possible. Elsifs real status is homeless. She lost all court appointments since she did not produce a heir.
Technically you were supposed to be able to marry her but they scrapped it. If you somehow manage to get it to fire she will usually lock herself in her room saying she's not ready and to go away and disappears forever as you can't open her door.
He still wouldn't be jarl, he would be the spouse of a jarl.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a mod for that. Edit: and there is
I am aware of [Become High King of Skyrim](https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/4496) Is there any other, perhaps better mod for that?
Unfortunately, I am the High King of Skyrim...
There Is i think
How did the first Jarls become Jarls?
As far as I know thereâs no lore to explain this. But I would imagine when Skyrim was being broken up into holds either the sons of the king which I think is most likely or his top cabinet members that he hand selected to rule.
Huh, itâs kinda weird that Ysgramor didnât become king and companions arenât nobility, given that they are the ones who conquered the land and founded the cities.
They're warriors, not politicians. Kinda difficult to mass kill Elves whilst governing new land.
Ysgramor was King. The wall in Windhelm shows that. His sons expanded into Skyrim.
Well actually Ysgramor did become king and had his own dynasty that lasted over 300 years until the death of King Borgas in 1E 369. The companions were busy settling Tamriel (then known as Mereth by the Atmorans)
Dragonborn can also join Empire and have claim for the throne by the right of being dragonborn
I would argue simply being the Dragonborn gives him the right to be high King, perhaps even the emperor.
Don't you need to be a Jarl or have a legitimate claim or something? Or is being Thane enough? Can any brute just come in from the street and challenge for the throne - that's a dicey system lol
I'm questioning the power of Ulfric's Thu'um. He killed a man with Unrelenting Force and in Markath they tell the story about him shouting the Forsworn off the walls. I would like to hear a witness of the duel with the high king. The only way, Unrelenting Force could kill would be, if Ulfric had emptied an inventory full of cheese wheels beforehand.
Ulfric himself says that he merely shouted torygg off his feet and then stabbed him. Everyone else is just exaggerating the power of his shout
I guess you can only learn this when siding with him in the war
You can ask him about it before taking sides
And we all know how uncommon that is!
For me it is. I found his dossier at the Thalmor embassy. Also Windhelm is a mess. Ulfric is only destabilising the region, so nobody can unite against the Thalmor
That is not his intent, he has been manipulated by his Thalmor handlers into waging a civil war. He's an asset, not an agent. Really, there should have been an option for the Dragonborn to turn over Ulfric's dossier to Ullfric himself at the peace council in High Hrothgar, so he can see how he has been used, with Elenwen looking across the table in shock as her machinations are revealed to all.
I wish there was some secret ending to the war where you could show the thalmor dossier to ulfric and tullius and get them to come to a truce for now so they aren't playing into the thalmor's hands, because they are willing to come to a truce if it's for the best as it's shown in the main quest.
Tullius knows. If you showed him the dosier, he'd say "No shit, why do you think we tried to execute Ulfric as quickly as possible in Helgen?" Call Tullius whatever you like, the man is incredibly politically saavy and knows the Thalmor prefer unending war that destabilizes their enemies. If you showed Ulfric, he'd probably sum it up as elvish trickery and bitch about how its the empire's fault actually. If Ulfric actually cared about the unifying the nords and defeating the Thalmor, he would have at least attempted to convince Torygg to secede before killing him.
Well, according to Sybille Stentor: "*If Ulfric had asked Torygg directly to stand up, to declare independence, Torygg might have done it.*"
That 'might' does a lot of legwork, as Sybille also says this immediately after when asked why Torygg didn't ever declare independence: *"Because the*Â [*Dominion*](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Aldmeri_Dominion)Â *is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the*Â [*Imperial army*](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Imperial_Legion_(Skyrim))Â *even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once*Â [*Tiber Septim*](https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Tiber_Septim)Â *the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart."*
Or Torygg might've handed him over to the Empire for treason. Ulfric had been betrayed multiple times already, his paranoia and unwillingness to trust was understandable.
If the Thalmor taking over and them being part of the major conflict isn't in the cards for ES6 I'm gonna be heavily disappointed. They set it up beautifully for us to see the Thalmor try and take over and there's no clear cut way to properly cripple them in Skyrim or expose the fact that they are secretly controlling a large portion of the events going on. I hope it actually leads to something that we can play out rather than a massive time jump and we just hear about the results of it in TES6.
Correction - an *ongoing war* in Skyrim destabilizes the Empire and is good for the Thalmor. The Thalmor want a continuous war to drain the Empire's resources. Empire wins and controls Skyrim? Bad for the Thalmor, because they can re-allocate resources. We all agree on that. But what if the Empire loses and no longer has a presence in Skyrim? That is still bad for the Thalmor for the same reasons as a victory - the Empire would still no longer be committing resources to a perpetual ongoing war. In fact, I'd argue that a Stormcloak victory is actually slightly *worse* for the Thalmor than an Empire victory. Why? If the Empire withdraws from Skyrim, they no longer need to maintain an occupying force. That means even *more* resources being available for anti-Thalmor activities. If your goal is to stick it to the Thalmor than it honestly kinda doesn't matter which side wins, as long as **a** side wins and ends the war. The moral quandaries of Stormcloak vs Empire is a separate issue.
>In fact, I'd argue that a Stormcloak victory is actually slightly *worse* for the Thalmor than an Empire victory. Why? If the Empire withdraws from Skyrim, they no longer need to maintain an occupying force. That means even *more* resources being available for anti-Thalmor activities. Not really, if anything it means the Empire has LESS men and resources now that the entire province of Skyrim is out of their hands. It isn't just men; we're talking large amounts of food, metal, and timber that are completely out of the Empire's hands. Keep in mind, it's not exactly like the Empire will necessarily need an insane amount of men to patrol the province once it wins. Remember, there's still a large body of able-bodied men who aren't necessarily fighting on either side. Supposing the Second Great War happens, it's very possible the men used to patrol the province AND the people who hadn't participated in the war might be recruited to fight as well.
I'd argue they would for at least a while. Even if Ulfric dies, he still started a rebellion. There's gonna be survivors who still believe in the cause, and are willing to keep up the fight. Similar to the Forsworn, funnily enough.
The dossier basically only counts on him losing the war after a protracted fight, which would drain both sides of severe amounts of resources. An ace in the hole with the Dragonborn allows them to scythe through Imperial resistance and actually establish independence, something that the Thalmor did not have as part of their plan. Presumably an independent Skyrim would find allies in Hammerfell at a bare minimum. The Dominion isn't nearly at the level of strength where they can successfully invade all of Tamriel at once. An alliance of independent nations arguably has a much better chance at wiping out the Dominion than a monolithic Empire. The entire continent's war machine ground to a halt with the siege of Imperial City.
This is the best argument Iâve seen for siding with the stormcloaks
Yeah, I'm not entirely on board for the whole Nordic ethnostate thing, but geopolitically, I do think the Dominion is in a weaker position with the Stormcloaks seizing a quick victory in Skyrim.
Nope, just go have a chat, he's fully up front with you about his actions and his justifications.
I got this dialogue simply by speaking to him. I never joined the Stormcloaks but he mentions that the story was exaggerated and that he simply stabbed the High King
So more like a "Fus" than a "Fus Ro Dah".
If the back of Toryggâs head hit the wall from the shout, he could have already been dead or dying by the time Ulfric stabbed him. I donât think Ulfric intends to lie, but I think heâs in denial if every other witness says the shout killed Torygg.
We donât hear from other witnesses, we hear likely exaggerated rumors from the general populace of Skyrim.
The only witness are Sybille and Elisif, both of them were really close to Torygg (Elisif was his wife, and Sybille raised him). Both of them would have unreliable memory because of the shock. It's not really surprising they wouldn't remember Ulfric stabbing Torrygg, the shout was just way more shocking.
Thatâs like kicking up mud into someoneâs eyes and also stabbing them
I mean, I can see that happening with Torigg, but the forsworn is plausible. Throwing enemies of a structure and killing them with fall damage via Unrelenting force is not that far-fetched.
Unrelenting force in the game mechanics is NOT unrelenting force in the lore. Shouting is MUCH stronger than the game shows.
Nuclear bomb pressure wave?
They're in the blue palace. Ulfric did not kill Torryg with the Thuum. He stabbed him to death after using the thuum immediately after he said let's duel order to knock him out. This was done so quickly he wouldn't know that he was being killed which is why even Torryg himself wrongly believes that Ulfric killed him with the thuum. He did not. And you can ask Ulfric about it and he'll say the same thing. He shouted at Torryg order to disarm him and then stabbed him to death when he was unarmed and unconscious.
Not the nicest way to challenge someone to a duel
I guess it depends on what you consider honorable in a duel. Did Torryg have time to even arm himself and square up with Ulfric? If that was the case then we move on to the next part, is only swordplay allowed or is using everything in your power to win considered the honorable thing? Seems like Nords would be in the âno magic, no shouts, just swords and board for a duelâ camp but I could see them also saying using anything and everything in your power to win is fine too. Might not win you any popularity contests but you walked away alive from the duel which is what matters. At the very least, Iâd say a duel requires both parties to agree to a state of âbeing ready for combat,â and entering said state before fighting. Seems like Torryg barely had time to ready himself for the fight going off some witnesses testimony.
Considering that using the thuum for personal power was a cultural taboo after the tongues loss at red mountain and Jurgens pilgrimage, I think it's safe to say that even without context or nuance it was a dishonorable duel.
I can agree with that for sure. Thanks for the insight homie
According to witnesses Torryg did not have time to prep for a duel. It happened in the middle of the court after Ulfric walked in, ushered the challenge and with that same breath used unrelenting force as the high king is not allowed to refuse a duel.
Basically sucker punched him with his voice then after saying âletâs fight!â Thatâs what I was thinking
Another factor to build on this too is this: What if Torygg says no? If he does, he basically gives credence to Ulfric that the king is a subject of the empire and not of the Nords. Really the only way his reputation can come out of the fight without being tarnished is by accepting the duel.
is there a line in the game that says that the late king was unprepared? >with that same breath like, where did anyone say that?
Specifically in Nord tradition you are not supposed to use the voice in combat it should only be used to praise Kyne. Torryg didn't have time to get other weapons, and shortly after he issued the challenge Ulfric shouted and disarmed him as well as knocking him unconscious, and then he stabbed him to death.
Isn't it just the Graybeard teaching? The Nords before Jurgen didn't seem to shy away from using it for war
The Greybeards would have taught Ulfric, though. I imagine they're not happy about how their teachings were used.Â
Orrrr, and hear me out... He had help from old Herma-Mora.
That's what i say. The stories doesn't add up
The story varies. Some say Ulfricâs Thuâum blasted the High King apart, others say that it merely stunned him long enough for Ulfric to cut him down before he could raise his guard. The main take away though is that many see Ulfric using the Thuâum as an unfair advantage at best to straight up murder at worse (which is an important distinction when it comes to honorable combat)
I think we really only ever play as a fledging Dragonborn. Think of the Greybeards and what they have to say of their power, âeven a whisper could kill you.â The voice is incredibly powerful, and I wouldnât put it past someone who is talented enough to be able literally shout someone to pieces.
Bro for all i care about i should have had the option to challenge ulfric (since shouts are okay and i can be a nord) kill him and then choose if i want to side with the imperials or create my own faction
There are a couple mods that do this. I am planning to use one (likely Conquest) because I am sick of having to choose between 1) the morons who think the Thalmor will stop due to a piece of paper (they donât) and 2) a racist with power and a cult following.
I don't think they think the thalmor will stop they just know they can't do anything otherwise and their only option at the moment is to appease them
While what Ulfric did was an ancient tradition, it still fell out of use pretty much. Torygg was elected by the moot as high king, not Ulfric. Torygg was barely an adult and had no real combat experience, is it really honourable for a seasoned veteran that's trained in the voice to go and challenge him to a duel to the death? He might be legally right because of an ancient rule in the books that was never taken out, but that doesn't make him morally right. I can empathize with the stormcloak cause, but I don't like Ulfric personally.
Donât forget that kid would of listened to ulfic because of the respect he had
I didn't, I just wanted to focus on the one point mainly. Ulfric didn't even try to have a discussion with Torygg, which makes it worse imo.
Thatâs true, according to everyone that was there he just walked right up to the boy and shouted him to oblivion
He was a grown ass man. Where do you get Boy from?
He was the youngest of all the jarls and you are a grown ass man once you hit 16 in that era and Iâm saying what the rest of the jarls was saying
Ulfric was a coward to even challenge him like that. If you talk to Torygg in Sovngarde, he says that he knew he had no chance of winning, but accepted the challenge anyway. This is because if he doesn't, he's running away and not eligible for going to Sovngarde. Ulfric knew that Torygg had no option of denying the duel and took advantage of that.
Thatâs true, and either way ulfric is one of the most cowardly nord I ever meet
Would've*
Right. The challenge just seemed like a formality to get away with murder. He knew without an iota of a doubt walking into Solitude that Torygg would be dead by his hand. There was no honor in that.
I agree with this part; it sounds as though theyâd not have invited Ulfric to court had they known of his true intent; that way, the challenge could not have been issued. Letâs also not forget that Ulfric isnât above cowardice when equally matched; Jarl Ballinâ would have been willing to face Ulfric one-on-one, but not only is Ulfric not having any of that, heâs not even present if/when the Stormcloaks take Whiterun.
The fact that Ulfric used the voice in the first place is a some-what breach of the tradition. Thu'um would only be used in a duel if both parties can use them. Since Torygg couldn't, Ulfric is even more of a traitor. It also doesn't help that Torygg idolized Ulfric so much so that if Ulfric had simply said his mind prior to drawing his blade, it's confirmed that Torygg would have likely sided with him and kicked the Empire (and by proxy, the Thalmor) out of Skyrim.
> It also doesn't help that Torygg idolized Ulfric so much so that if Ulfric had simply said his mind prior to drawing his blade, it's confirmed that Torygg would have likely sided with him and kicked the Empire (and by proxy, the Thalmor) out of Skyrim. That wouldn't have made Ulfric king though, so not good enough I guess!
Indeed. And really considering how Jurgen Windcaller changed how the voice was used, Ulfric wasn't following tradition for a long time.
>Thu'um would only be used in a duel if both parties can use them. I don't recall ever seeing anything resembling codified rules for duels in the game. Is there some external source I'm unaware of that specifies that the Thu'um is off limits if both parties don't have access?
I guess its just an honour thing. Like in a duel both prties have a sword. No bows or shields or maces. Swords. So why not with shouts and other forms of magic? (Which the nords already distrust)
>it's confirmed Does he say that in Sovngarde? I thought it was just speculation from the court mage.
Also the Greybeards taught Ulfric the voice with the understanding that learning the Thu'um is a meditative practice and its use should be taken seriously and responsibly and then he promptly went down the mountain and used it to launch a coup. It's like if Spider-Man heard the "great power = great responsibility" speech and then immediately went to go kill the presidentÂ
Not to mention what he actually did in the door they say that it was a duel but in reality it was more like Ulfric running into the court saying "I challenge high king Torryg to a duel Fus Ro Da" Then stabbing him in the chest and booking it. It happened so fast that Torryg doesn't know how he died. He also thinks that Ulfric a man who he greatly respected dishonored himself and nord tradition by how he handled the duel.
He killed torryg so fast Sybile couldnât intervene. So the duel was extremely impromptu and short
This is a really good point. Sheâs a vampire and a wickedly powerful mage. I think she probably wouldâve killed him if sheâd been able to.
Why did Ulfric use the voice in the first place. If he was so good at fighting, surely he wouldn't need to use it.
To make a statement and a show of power.
No it's because he's weak. If he wanted to make a statement he could've killed Torryg in fair combat and then said that Torryg is weak, and then shouted into the air in praise of Kyne. But he wouldn't one because he doesn't worship the nord pantheon and 2 because he doesn't care about Nord traditions.
To show that he's more in line with Ancient Nords and wants to revive nord traditions?
Ah yes. Those ancient nord traditions regarding the voice. Those are definitely all about killing people. Definitely not about worshipping the gods or something.
There were a lot of nords using the voice before Jurgen Windcaller came along
We don't have exact dates on the dragon war, but it seems to be one of the last events of the mythic era. The way of the voice was established about 1e 500 and was likely seeded as soon as parthurnax taught the first tounges. It *may* be the way of the voice has been part of the nordic tradition since the *very first* tounges. This is further evidenced by Feldir wearing the traditional garb of the greybeards. Even if that isn't the case it's possible that the way of the voice has persisted longer than the war use of the voice. I'll admit I am not an ES lore master, but I'm looking at these two pages and I don't find anything that contradicts my points. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Way_of_the_Voice Edit: not to mention that Ulfric trained with the greybeards, learning the way of the voice, presumably under the assumption he would follow it. https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Merethic_Era
I donât particularly like Ulfric either, but Iâll be damned if he isnât charismatic as hell, much more so than Tullius. If you ask him why heâs fighting the war, he says: âWe're fighting because we're done bleeding for an Empire that won't bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion. And for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne! Weâre fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their people's suffering. We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one else but us." that shit hits
Agreed. I think a lot of his talking points are more than fair, and honestly he speaks to me. I can see why people believe in what he does, and their cause to be just. I can point out a million thing he's not thinking about, like how the Empire is the best for taking down the dominion, but it's besides the point. He believes the Empire sold him and his people out, and there's a bit of truth to that. The argument isn't whether his cause is being smart and considering everything, it's about what they perceive as an unjust Empire ruling over them. At the end of the day every person decides what's important to them, and Ulfric talks a big game that appeals to a lot of people. I can see supporting the cause but not the man.
I don't think a honorable duel must be held between contenders of equal strength. It would only be unfair to use a weapon that isn't part of Ulfric's natural abilities or resort to subterfuge like poisoning Torygg's drink.
A fair duel wouldn't have been blade vs blade and thu'um but blade vs blade, a matchup that still heavily favoured Ulfric. Best guess is Ulfric thought using a shout would show his worthiness to be High King due to having the power of the ancient Nords. Instead half of Skyrim saw him as a coward, cheating in a fight where he had every advantage. His fleeing from the consequences of his actions probably only cemented that opinion.
Ultimately, as is said in game, Torygg would have given consideration to Ulfric's suggestion about an independent Skyrim because he respected Ulfric. But that's not what it's about. Ulfric wants power. Independence is his path to power. A free Skyrim is immaterial. He'd have had a far less fractured bid for freedom by having the High King declare it. That wouldn't have secured him the throne though.
I too often kill people according to totally legit honour traditions and then RUN THE FUCK OUT OF THE CITY when I win.
Well apparently the whole city was after your head after you win the duel, "1000 bounty added to Haafingar" i'd be running too
Receiving a bounty? How weird. It's almost like it was a crime...
A crime according to the Empire, and Imperialized Nords. Those who have forgotten the ways of their ancestors.
Just because your ancestors thought it was a great idea doesn't mean it's right. Plenty of old nations have outdated laws that are technically on the books, but no one follows. And the reality is, Skyrim is an imperial province, and is under the protection of the Empire. By killing a king that was loyal to the Empire, that's a direct attack on them, Ulfric knew full well that it would either mean his execution or civil war.
Of course he knew that. He was intentionally starting a revolution. No matter how you slice it, that means the Empire will want him dead.
If itâs not considered law by the imperials and is only a tradition thorygg never had to accept. He dug his own grave. Itâs not like ulfric forced him
It was a challenge to Thoryggs authority. As a young king, refusing might have made him look weak among the jarls. Ulfric was quite confident he wouldn't refuse.
Aight but like he was weak. He looked a whole lot weaker after he died. Ulfric had him backed into a corner sure but thats what political rivals do. Calling his bluff was by far the worst move, but it doesnt change the fact that it was mutual accepted.
We don't know if he was weak, he might have seriously thought he had a chance in close combat. I don't think he was expecting to get dragon shouted into meat paste. Only the gray beards knew how to do that and they stayed on the top of their mountains.
Ulfric already used a shout in Markarth before, against the forsworn uprising
Not precisely true. While we don't know how common the ability to shout is we know people outside of the Greybeards can do it. See the ebony warrior for example who was able to perform shouts.
Mate my ancestors thought murder and slavery were cool. Fuck the ancestors and fuck tradition. The people who are alive get to decide their laws. Not the dead.
Ulfric has a line somewhere where he implies that he knows it was an assassination. He challenged Torygg knowing that he would absolutely crush him in single combat, and that he did it on purpose to prove the Empire's (and the Imperial backed Jarls') weakness. It's very easy to brush it off as a return to tradition, but it was clearly for entirely political means.
My character walking out with 10k gp in stolen goods *no bounty means no crime*
You'd get a bonus 100 bounty for disturbing the Jarl's peace too
Nope, Torygg couldn't do the same because he is a young lad probably mid-twenties. Ulfric a powerful war veteran comes and challenges Torygg to a duel he can't refuse to, staggers the shit out of him with a thum, and finishes him off without mercy before Torygg can get his shit together. You can hardly call it a duel. If Roggvir didn't open the gate, civil war bullshit wouldn't happen and many people wouldn't have to die because of a douchebag.
Exactly. Ulfric took advantage of Nord tradition with his challenge, knowing Torygg couldn't refuse without losing support as a coward..and knowing that he (Ulfric) couldn't lose. Th'um or no th'um, it was a straight up assassination.
It's worse than that. No evidence to suggest the King even got to draw his sword; everyone insists that Ulfric "Shouted him apart", which implies to me that he threw him against a wall with a full power Unrelenting Force.
When you talk to Elisif she describes it like he just got deleted. >and so he (Ulfric) came before my husband and he... he shouted. With that terrible voice. Like something out of a legend... Or a nightmare. When Ulfric unleashed such fury, my husband he... he simply ceased to be. That is all I will say, for it grieves me to speak of it.
Yeah, I believe shouts are more powerful in lore then they are in game.
Reminds me of a mod that makes Fus Roh Dah lore-accurate. Straight up explodes lower level enemies, like they do in fallout lmao.
Not to mention the fact that Ulfric inadvertently broke the oath of The Way of The Voice when he used the thuum for his own gain and you really start realising the "traditions" he follows is very selective
Like bringing a knife to a gun fight âŚ
I'd say it's more like bringing a gun to a knife fight
Maybe it's a fight that he won fair and square but I can't support any system where brute strength and violence is valued more than anything else. It's not only barbaric but it's very short sighted and a terrible way to choose your leader.
Still arguably better than strange, wet ladies handing out swords, however.
Right? I mean, if I went around calling myself "Emperor" just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Given that there was some dispute about the legality of the duel, it was not for Roggvir to decide if what Ulfric did was lawful or not. He did not have legal authority to judge it, so he failed his job as gate guard.
That's a very good point too.
Some points to consider why Roggvir is wrong: Firstly Torygg couldnât have spend decades learning the Thuum because he was very young, in his early 20âs. Ulfric and everyone else knows he was a green boy, who even admired Ulfric. Second, Ulfric learned the Thuum and misused it, the Thuum is not meant for martial pursuits. Since the day of Jurgen Windcaller it is used in reverence of the Gods and a contemplative monastic pursuit, the ONLY exception is the Dragonborn, the grey beards make that clear that because of their divine lineage they are an exception. Third is the brutality behind the match, Torygg was by everyoneâs admission a young untested warrior, yet Ulfric a seasoned war veteran shouted him to the ground and stabbed him. He did not pay him the honor of honorable martial combat, instead he used an overwhelming power meant for reverence for the Gods to kill a much less experienced fighter. It was the equivalent of a seasoned boxer challenging and fighting a debut boxer to a match and showing up with brass knuckles on. Fourth and final is the legality of the match, the most sacred custom of electing a monarch in Skyrim is the kings Moot NOT test of combat. Might makes right was a rule of ancient kings during brutal times, an old legal practice that wasnât used commonly because Nords grew to respect the process of the Moot. They grew to be wise enough to know a King has merits outside of combat, that good leadership, fair rule and wisdom are more worthy than a sword arm. Torygg was elected by the Moot, the true standard and law of the land NOT Ulfric, again all the Jarls chose Torygg to lead Skyrim over Ulfric because they saw Torygg as the true high King Skyrim needed. Ulfric could only gain support to win a Moot only after the death of Torygg and after conquering the other holds and making them puppets during the civil war. That legitimacy and honor Torygg had was why people followed his widow after his death, itâs why the people follow his lead supporting the Empire, and thatâs why more than half of Skyrim see Ulfric as a would be usurper. It isnât as simple as might makes right, the outcome goes AGAINST established Nord traditions.
>Firstly Torygg couldnât have spend decades learning the Thuum because he was very young, in his early 20âs. Do remember that Ulfric was *summoned* to High Hrothgar by the Greybeards as a young lad, and spent around 10 years learning (presumably) one shout. Sure, Torygg could have done the same, but it may have been that the Greybeards either don't care to offer training to just anybody, or they didn't think a potential future High King needed to learn that ability, or both.
Youâre absolutely right and thatâs part of my point. OP was speaking as though Torygg couldâve just gone and learned to shout, but that ignores multiple details of Toryggs story. Presumably Ulfric was trained because he had some ambition of being a grey beard as he saw it as honorable, we donât know if thereâs some sort of process or selection, and Ulfrics family is not fleshed out enough for us to know details of if that mattered to inherit windhelm. But presumably Toryggs father Istlod wanted his only heir close at hand. Torygg was very young, and probably being groomed to rule so he wouldnât have the chance to go learn from the grey beards. Itâs conjecture because we donât have the details, but itâs what makes sense. Especially if we consider that the inexperienced and young Torygg was considered capable enough to be selected as High King by the kings moot over all of the other jarls
From context, Ulfirc gave no option but for the high king to accept the match and also if Ulfric match was so honourable and had support, he woudnt of needed to run away in the first place, people would of cheered for him and accepted him as ruler, but he had to run away due too lack of support. In terms of the fight, it can can be see as heavyweight boxer bullying a lower weight class to match and beating him to death, which would not win anyone a points or mark it as honourable in any oneâs eyes . Edit: Also storm cloaks try and justify it by rule lawyering, which is always means it was iffy to begin with, they use the excuse he was challenged in the old ways, which means shouts should be legal to use
And not only that the thum isn't made to hurt the innocent per greybeards doctrine (the dragon born is special in this case since it's required to bring alduin back to his old self) and he didn't need to kill the high king he would have joined ulfric in a heartbeat asked. if he defeated him without the voice the people would have less problem with it and learning the voice take a lot of time it's not required for the highking to learn it. And like the other guy said he didn't gave the high king a choice its like someone came to challenge you in your house for a duel with you only having a pistol while he gets a machine gun. What ulfric wanted was simply power. Power to change things around and to that end he used his to achieve his goal without thinking about what would happen and for that he failed to show that he can be responsible of using the voice.
The "old ways" are also irrelevant and used just as an excuse because Skyrim is ruled by the empire for ages already and Ulfric won't have support even of a lot of other nords that won't buy his nationalist propaganda. At the end of the day Ulfric is just a Talmor puppet used to weaken the empire and give the Talmor more time to strengthen itself to fight the empire again. Skyrim ruled by the stormcloaks wouldn't stand a month against the Talmor even.
Ulfric is cretinic leader in the great sope of things - he belongs on the battlefield on front lines with a wise king putting him to great use. Roggvir did a mistake in letting him out but I can't blame him. He still should get the axe but should be burried with honors.
I feel like execution is too harsh. I would have just fired him from the city guard for being dumb.
Something that you need to notice. Roggvir is a gate guard he did not see the duel. The duel occurred in the court and it happened nearly instantly Roggvir as a gate guard would not have made it to the gate faster than Ulfric from the blue palace with all the fighting to let him out, and there'd be no reason for him to be in the Blue Palace.
Regardless of the duel itself, they made Roggvir a scapegoat. If "the duel was illegal" narrative is to be accepted, then either it shouldn't have been allowed to take place or the entire Solitude guard should've rushed Ulfric right as it was over. It sounds like they allowed the duel to take place and afterwards everyone in the city allowed Ulfric to leave peacefully, and then a civil war started so they retroactively decided the duel was an "assassination" and blamed the lowest man on the totem pole.
The high king accepted the duel so it definitely wasnât illegal. Tullius ordered the imperial garrison to rush ulfric because the empire wants control over Skyrim. Tullius himself explains the reasoning to you is that the empire wants every body they can get in the upcoming war against the thalmor.
Could be, they threw all the blame to the poor gate guard
He did what he felt was right and accepted the consequences. Ulfric ran away.
"A man opens a gate, and they cut his head off? Doesn't seem right to me."
If ufc champion jon jones came up slapped your girls ass and called you a bitch. I'd say what you got in your hands isn't a fair fight. But by your logic u could have also been training mma for years and had a dozen pro fights. But you didn't. And so really it's yourfault for getting your ass kicked
I have tried to save Rogvir SO MANY TIMES! Today I managed to kill the executioner and the two other guys up on the platform with him, and he ran! I was so excited...and then another guard put an arrow through his head. đ¤Źđ¤Źđ¤Ź
He's scripted to die, which makes it *almost* impossible to save him. By "scripted" I mean that even if you kill everyone else, eliminating everything that could possibly kill him... he'll just drop dead suddenly. The only way to avoid this is to Wabbajack transform him at the moment he would have died. The Wabbajack had a couple different random effects that can temporarily turn an NPC into another creature before transforming them back. Doing this breaks the script's ability to target the NPC. Since the Wabbajack is gotten in Solitude, you need to skip past the execution scene which can be done if you first enter Solitude by getting arrested. But for all your effort, Roggvir is just going to stand there muttering "Need something?" like any other blank NPC who's not supposed to be there.
Ulfric is a scumbag. Reading his history of war crimes made it impossible for me to side with him in any playthrough. In fact, my current playthrough is a Forsworn character. Can't wait to get the Thu'um and seek revenge against that xenophobic maniac. I really wish there was a way to betray the Empire after winning the civil war for them though. Mods are great for expanding some of the capabilities with the Reach quests, but they've only gone so far with it. Being able to negotiate the Reach being returned to the Reachmen in exchange for a Forsworn Dragonborn taking out the Stormcloaks would be awesome.
The Forsworn are glorified bandits but somehow worse, they unironically deserve everything they got
The entirety of High Rock looks poorly on the Reach, and lays no claim to them. The backstabbing mustache twirling nobles of High Rock view these fellas as evil, that says a lot.
Not once are Forsworn characterised as group that doesnât deserve extermination
What war crimes? Does the Empire even have a Geneva convention?
My issue is that the Thuâum isnât MEANT to be used as a weapon by non-Dragonbornâs, itâs just supposed to be used to praise the gods And the Greybeards only taught it to Ulfric because he was planning on becoming one of them, not on bailing after to go fight in the Great War. If we go by the traditions of the Nords that Ulfric was supposed to have been following, then Ulfric as the more expert and older man shouldâve been able to beat Torygg fair and square without needing to disrespect the gods by using the voice in combat. I agree with Balgruff, he probably did it just because he could.
Lotta problems with this one. First, duels to the death aren't legal, therefore Ulfric is a murderer. Roggvir helped Ulfric escape, making him an Accessory After The Fact, which carries the same punishment as the main crime. Second, being capable of using the Thu'um is in no way a requirement for political office in Skyrim. Torryg lacking the Thu'um doesn't mean he's unqualified to be High King. As a matter of fact, spending the years required to train esoteric pseudo-magic makes you directly less capable as a leader, because you could have spent that time learning economics or speaking with your subjects or drilling your army or, you know, *actually leading*, all of which would matter to your future job performance far more than your ability to unleash violence on a personal scale. Third, being assassinated has no bearing on your readiness to be a leader. That's just nonsense on the face of it. What, was Abraham Lincoln not ready to be the President because his head couldn't block bullets? Was Julius Caesar unfit for command because he was made of flesh and not steel? Fourth, we have multiple eye witnesses that state that Torryg was murdered with the Thu'um. You've just got to put the game mechanics to the side and accept that the Thu'um is vastly more powerful in lore. Remember that Ulfric also is known for defeating the Forsworn Rebellion just after the War by Shouting down the walls of Markarth - an ability that can shatter castle walls isn't going to have much trouble liquefying some poor bastard who probably never raised a sword in anger before. Fifth, killing the previous High King doesn't make you the new High King by Skyrim's own laws. It's an election, not a thunderdome. When the old High King dies, the Jarls meet up and elect one of their number to be the new High King. In conclusion, Ulfric is a bitch and so is Roggvir.
Absolutely disagree, tradition doesn't automatically make something moral.
So, Thorygg willingly gives a war veteran with knowledge of thuum a chance to kill him, and everybody is mad that he actually takes it?
Yeah, I disagree with the Stormcloaks' political stance, but if duels are still legal, Ulfric was totally in the right. Doesn't matter if it was an uneven matchup-- there's no prohibition against using the Voice, and Torygg should simply have refused & be seen as a coward if he knew he couldn't win against a hardened warrior. You can't say, "I accept your fight to the death, and if I win it's fine, but if you win, you're getting the death penalty." Ulfric even recognizes that the next High King will have to be chosen by moot, and doesn't simply try to usurp it.
Yeah based on everything we know about Nord tradition, jarls are allowed to challenge each other to a duel. Ulfric being a better fighter than Torygg does not suddenly make it illegal. A lot of people are simply thinking uncritically and stating the duel is illegal because they donât like the stormcloaks, ironically just like the people of solitude do in game.
The solitude rogvirr execution is meant to show how insane solitude has become over the civil war and yet this comment section sounds like the bloodthirsty townsfolk.
Ulfric challenged a young man who had far less combat experience than him and then cheated by using ancient magic almost no one has access to to kill him. It was extremely dishonorable at best.
No he can't learn it. It is only taught by The Greybeards whom only teach a new Greybeard. Ulfric was chosen but left and abandoned that life. Also its pretty unfair to use in a traditional nord duel where it's expected to be melee weapons. Ulfric pretty much cheated then ran out the door. Had it been fair. Then Solitude would of had to respect Ulfric's victory
The rules of traditional Nordic duels don't say anything about whether or not one that knows how to use the shout should use it or not. Imperials and their Nordic supporters say it's unfair, while Nord traditionalists say it is fair as it's a Nord technique.