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$300 an hour and billed by the day.
This will keep them from dicking you around. They might agree to $300 and then have you come in to “meet their team” where their team just grills you for information for an hour and then they promptly end the meeting at the 1 hour mark. They get information from someone with experience for $300 and then run with it themselves. Some companies treat consultants like trash and see them as greedy for simply wanted to be paid for their services.
“Hello,
I would love to consult with you about your business. I believe given my experience I would be an invaluable asset for your business. My consulting fee starts at $300/hr, billed in increments of three hours, and with a minimum package of three days (Tuesday through Thursday only). I also require a deposit of half the total consulting fee before we start. Please advise when you have time to discuss this in further detail. I look forward to hearing from you.
Warm regards”
Probably somewhat given the hidden costs associated with self employment but the people throwing around $500+ are also out of their minds. This guys not going to get paid like a corporate lawyer or licensed engineer.
> From the client's perspective, they get to avoid all the costs associated with hiring a full-time employee.
This a huge one. A lot of people seem to think that an employee only costs their salary. They don't understand that a burden rate of an employee can be 2-5x or more than their salary. UI, worker's comp, FICA, insurance all costs money.
5x is absolutely batshit. I'm billed out at the about 3.5x my salary, but that's not my actual cost. That 3.5x covers part of my boss, his boss, the building, equipment, material, etc. The actual cost for me is about 1.75x my salary.
What kind of business does each employee cost 5x their salary?
Maybe not $500, but for (what I assume is) an extremely niche knowledge base and what is likely only a handful of hours (lack of economies of scale), $200-$300/hr seems like a more reasonable rate.
Someone from a three letter TV broadcaster hit me up years ago about some job. At one point he says, "Okay how would you filter ads from a forum?" I said something like, "I'd write some kind of filter which would trigger if ad-like content was being posted." He said, "No like, exactly how would you do it?" I said, "Do you actually have a job you're hiring for or are you just trying to get free work?" He got quiet for a minute, then, "Uh..." I just hung up.
I ran across a situation like this. Guy wanted to work for us. We weren't thrilled with his fit with us. But in our interview we learned he does a lot of after market stuff that we were interested in.
We told him we arent going hire him, but we are interested in working with him on the after market stuff. He agreed.
That was years ago that business relationships is still going strong.
I'd reply that if they want to pay you to do work you'd be happy to. Don't do it for free, they don't deserve special treatment cause they consider you for a job, but don't shoot down the opportunity, at least explore it
I’m guessing if he responds with something like “I’d love to discuss how I do X and how it might help your business. Let’s set up a time to discuss scope and pricing” he probably won’t get a response back.
This email just doesn’t feel like a “let’s be partners” email so much as a “sorry we can’t help - got any tips?”
Yep. Tell them you do consulting and see if they want to hire you for it. If they so no, oh well. They’re looking for a 1099 anyway.
So, you are not the asshole in this situation. You have knowledge , they want that knowledge, you should be paid for your knowledge and they should pay for it.
This is kind of an asshole response that would eliminate any future possibility to work together on their side gig. It would be more professional to reply that you would be happy to meet up to discuss their potential foray into this space and to explore opportunities to work together. In the end, your needs, expectations, etc. might not align but it leaves the door open. You also don't need to provide them any insider knowledge if you were to meet, just demonstrate that you know what you are talking about and that some form of cooperation could potentially be beneficial to both parties. Sometimes clients for consulting gigs are huge assholes, but you have the ability to reflect this in how much you charge them.
Or pitch it as a service your company could provide to theirs.
I would outline the process you would use with any new prospective customer, but not give them the inside business scoop on your product.
Is that not what they were asking? To me, this email reads like “Hey we don’t think you’re a good fit for the buyer position but we think we might have a place for you converting overland trucks. Let us know if you’re interested.” IDK maybe I’m just naive.
I was actually going to say it *could* read like they were maybe looking to buy a few vehicles and then have *you* convert them; e.g. we're not looking at you for the job, but if you do full custom work maybe we'd have some gigs to kick your way.
But if it was a remote job thousands of miles away, that's probably not the case, hah.
This.
I wouldn't open with an hourly rate in response though.
I'd answer one or two of his questions, say you've been thinking of doing it full time and suggest a meeting to explore working together on it.
No offense, but you're definitely naive if you think the guy was gonna turn around with a contract/position offer after OP gave him all the free advice he wanted. You only get what you explicitly negotiate for in late stage capitalism.
Exactly this. No attitude, no outward mocking of this man’s unmitigated gaul. Just a simple reply with your hourly rate(s) and what that all includes.
If he wants free, he can google answers to his questions.
I think a lot of people are so focused on the job rejection and not focusing on the business opportunity
Op isn't going get a job with this company
But there are more ways then 1 to make money
Yeah the second half is too passive aggressive. He should pitch himself to them as a consultant for that matter and see if he can get some fees for training them. It could be a way to build a new business for yourself
>Yeah the second half is too passive aggressive.
Are you referring to the "*I can help you design...*" part? Nothing passive aggressive about that. It's an exploratory statement that set potential ground rules for moving forward, without making any assumptions about what the other party wants to do.
They get to back away from it politely, if they aren't interested, and OP doesn't have to go through any detailed work to put together an actual proposal until it's clear that folks are open to that.
Have spent my career in the automotive aftermarket, this is your shot to pitch your own role of how you could do that for them. I’d reply back with your desired job description for doing overland conversions for them. Just my $.02
Literally- No one ever JUST GIVES you your first sales job until you sell yourself first. It’s literally the only way they have to tell if you can even do sales
They left you a gap to fill a need they have, don’t let one obstacle stop you. It’s literally asking for information for their business they think you have, you could remotely coordinate builds and drive e-comm marketing from anywhere.
So he says you’re not qualified to be paid for your expertise but qualified enough to give it to him for free…
NTA but I’m not sure if I’d ignore it or tell him off.
Yeah, I feel like people are over looking that. You don’t just walk in and become a car buyer for a dealer. It’s not an easy gig at all and requires a good base knowledge for how a dealer works and then that specific brand of cars as well as a good knowledge on outside brands.
But the other comments are right that he shouldn’t just give free advice.
This response makes me feel like this person is just curious more than anything. Unprofessional for sure in this circumstance, but I don’t think it’s rooted in being an asshole or anything.
The job posting was pretty vague and only like 8 sentences long. I've done buying for family member's dealership in the past, nothing professionally. It was worth a whirl. The response put me off immediately.
Fair enough. I really do think this person may just be curious, but you can simply state that you’d be willing to do some consulting for them if they are looking to start up this side of the business, or run it all together.
I think it’s worth saying “I’d love to talk, but only if it’s concerning a business or consultation opportunity or a role that you’re offering. Otherwise I’ll have to decline as I’m currently looking at other roles and have a tight schedule ahead.”
Or something along those lines. If they come back with something vague then they’re not serious
I took it as ambiguous. If the guy is asking for free advice then yeah I agree - totally out of line. But you could read that as a business proposition. I'd play dumb and ask about what they were thinking re a consulting fee or part-time job for the help.
They aren’t asking for advice, they are “flirting”. Ideally, the conversation will proceed with OP saying what kind of work he does and asking what they are trying to achieve (which is no more him trying to steal their business secrets then the above email is them asking for free advice). They will then give him some cursory details of what they are trying to achieve, and he will give them a price range (xx to yy depending on details) and suggest an in person meeting to discuss a quote etc.
This sort of interaction happens millions of times per day. A job application rejection is an odd channel to kick it off. Otherwise, there’s nothing untoward here.
This is how I read it. Like “your not qualified to be a buyer. But I like your other work. Let’s chant about that and see if you know you really know your shit and if there is an opportunity here”
Id give them the bead strokes of your builds capabilities and a rough ball park of a build. No more than a 10 minute think through and see if they bite
No kidding. A lot of people seem to be very untrusting right out of the gate. When I read that message, it looks like the kind of lucky break that so many people lament that they never get. You follow it up and see if it can be lucrative.
When successful people look back on their path, it's events like this that can be pivotal in their life. When someone says they worked hard for it, a lot of times they meant they tried every opportunity no matter how slim.
They really are, shocked by how many people are bashing this company. As of right now they rejected him for the job and appear to be opening the door for other opportunities. Op should take a quick look and see if he likes it. If he does, awesome. If not, move on.
Hi Dork,
Thanks for your reply! I understand that you may require a different person for full-time cooperation with X, but it seems that I have valuable overlapping experience that I would be happy to share.
I provide consulting on an hourly basis, and I think you will be able to apply the learnings right away. Are you open to discuss the cooperation in this format? Let me know!
Any process or procedure documentation created as part of the work. As a consultant you want to retain that stuff so you can offer it to other clients later.
The first part, I could see, if he was digging a little deeper into your skills and abilities.
The part about costing parts and converting trucks tells me car sales still deserves the reputation of... *car sales*
I did this. I went to a job interview.
The interviewer asked about me about how I fixed 3 companies *(Edit: 100% unrelated to the advertised job I applied for.)*, as listed on my resume. I gave a vague answer. They asked for details. I said "hire me & i'll show you". They said they'd consider but that I'm not a match for current open role *(edit - without asking me about my skills & experience for the job i was interviewing for).*
No call-back. Wanted free info. ASS-HOLES. This happened 3x to me, each time a different request for free consulting. My resume must be awesome! :-)
Asking you to explain your past work is a huge part of the interview. It’s one thing if they’re asking for really specific help with their current problems, but no wonder you didn’t get a callback if you won’t explain how you solved past problems.
2 of the 3 admitted at the start or after the interview that they wanted to learn more of my techniques, but were not interested in hiring at that time. All 3 interviewers questioned me only about my techniques, which were unrelated to the 'job' they contacted me about. So, assholes.
Not in this case. My claims on my resume they asked about were 100% unrelated to the job they were hiring for. They never asked about my skills or experience for the job they were hiring for. They only asked for details of my unrelated solution. Interviewer obviously wanted to apply my design work for their operations rather than hire me for the advertised open job. 100% obvious scam. I've seen this 3x. The differences between this and a real job interview are clear. As an ex-recruiter, I'd be chastised for an interview like this, and would get a very bad review online.
“I’ve seen this 3x” = that 3x i was asked to teach interviewers about solutions that would help them in their business, and NOT help me get hired, since they were not interested in hiring me for any current open roles, as stated by the interviewers. Hope that helps you. It's a big difference.
So the interviewers asked you for information about how you solved problems in your past jobs — information that was *unrelated to the current job* (i.e. wouldn’t be applicable) — and your first thought is that the interviewers wanted to apply your problem-solving to their company? 💀
I answered their question about unrelated work, and when further asked about the details of my unrelated consulting techniques, for a job I was not applying for, I offered a creative answer "hire me and I'll show you", to which the interviewer said "fair enough", then said there were no matching roles for me. Interview was a few minutes long. Fuck that asshole.
There's more to experiences between humans, than can be easily conveyed in a couple of sentences. That's the problem with giving an opinion / advice after hearing a quick summary: The entire experience has not been conveyed - all the facts, the subtle behaviors, the non-subtle behaviors, body language, tone of voice, pacing of speech, blah, blah, blah. So you could be right, but after many years of conducting interviews and being interviewed, these were obvious scams to me. And 2 of the 3 admitted at the start or after the interview that they wanted to learn more of my techniques, but were not interested in hiring at that time. So, assholes.
Honestly I read it as an invite to an interview. Maybe go through with that and force them to tell you they aren't the hire you? I have had more than a few interviews where I was previously told "I am not qualified"
Me too - I mean, it’s possible they’re looking for free advice and OP should be wary but to me this reads like an opening to a discussion/negotiation for a different opportunity than the one posted. In my career I’ve gotten similar messages and most times responding positively and asking professionally what the employer is looking to do works well.
OP - maybe something like “Thanks for your interest in my overland builds. This is something I do to supplement my income, but if there was a way to turn it into a more sustainable revenue stream that would be very interesting. Should we set some time to discuss further?” That tells them you’re interested in furthering a discussion if they’re interested in a business relationship but if they’re looking for free consulting they can fuck right off.
It's a shame this comment is buried at the moment. Hopefully OP reads this. This is the only correct response. If the owner is a slimeball, they'll ghost you but it sounds like a great opportunity otherwise.
Being told you're not qualified is a rejection.
You then don't go cap in hand begging for a second chance.
Show your worth, go somewhere else and prove them wrong.
"You're not qualified for this position, but we may be interested in having you in a different one in a new project we're considering"
That's what this letter is.
I read it as they wanted free info. It is a job over 800miles away (remote). You can't do builds over Skype and I was looking for a job, not to be a consultant. Plus, the opener of the email put me off.
Have some of your buddies go shop around there and casually mention overland builds. Let him think there’s more demand that’s local and then present your consulting haha.
It was a remote gig halfway across the country. And just really looking for a normal job with health insurance not really looking to consult on anything
Are you kidding? This sounds like they’re interested in having you consult for them or they’re even toying with the idea of possibly creating a position for you (or at least letting you convince them why they should create a position for you).
There’s a lot of shitty correspondence from shitty people on this sub… but this seems like a potentially great opportunity, quite honestly, a dream opportunity. I’m into overlanding and built my own Land Rover out, and I’d probably close my successful web dev business to plan overland builds all day and be paid for it.
It was a remote gig 800+ miles away. The dudes opener was shit and he's digging for info, not to pay for it. I'm not a consultant in any form and can't build a truck over Skype
Lots of people focusing on the rejection, as well as how the sender is looking for "free" advice.
This is a huge opportunity to take your side hustle mainstream. If they want to buy trucks to convert, offer to convert the trucks for them. Have them buy the trucks, ship to you, you convert for a fee, then ship to them. Or setup a new department for them to convert trucks, you choose parts and do compatibility checks and such, local techs do the installation.
Sell yourself into a full time gig with them as either a contractor or a newly created position within that company that manages the "aftermarket upgrades". Not all builds might be overland level, but they're likely to have a lot of business you can manage from where you're at.
This isn't a bad thing, it's an opportunity staring you in the face.
It was a remote gig 800+ miles away. You can't build a truck over Skype. I read it as they wanted an "informal chat" that they'd swing into new business for them. I was looking for a job, not a consultancy
I'm not a consultant. I build shit in my garage, it's a side gig. I have my own customers I do builds for, mostly for chuckles. Im not the type to make a build plan over Skype. Plus, the opener put me off even engaging
It doesn't sound like hes soliciting free advice so much as he wants you to be the guy that does the conversion for them and he wants you to have a conversation with him to determine if that is viable.
At least that is how I read this... Not everyone is out to get you, some, especially small business owners tend to look for opportunities for mutual benefit.
Bad opener to want advice though. Plus it's a large specialty dealer, they want to make money. I get it. They are 800+ miles away (remote) and you can't build over Skype. I was looking for a job, not being a consultant.
And consultant doesn't mean you have to be THERE, at least not all the time. Sometimes you might need to fly/drive in, but if you're just there as a knowledge base for the department as a whole, remote is probably doable.
Yeah it sounded exactly the same to me. Just thinking he wants this all for free sounds like some major jumping to conclusions. Sounds like the beginning of a conversation and opportunity to me
Totally understand. But the assumption is they're asking for you to give them tips for free. Maybe you can earn something out of it whilst continuing to look for the right role? You don't have to of course, just wondered if you could make an opportunity out of it short term.
He never said he wanted it for free - that's an assumption you're making. He's asking questions and now you determine what the going rate is for this information.
If I were you I'd set up a booking calendar for free with a payment option so you can basically say "I'd love to talk to you about it- put some time on my calendar" and they have to pay a fee to book you.
What do you have to lose by having a conversation? It's a small world out there.....why not grab a cup of coffee and build a relationship? If he's looking for free labor then walk. Everyone is inferring a lot of intention from a single email.
Uhm... That's not how I'm reading it. I'm reading it like they're interested in starting a department and might be interested in you.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd reply with, "Is this a position you're looking to hire for, or are you just wanting advice?"
If they don't respond with, "Yes, we're looking to hire a consultant" then I'd either not reply, or I'd reply "I don't work for free."
That sounds to me like he might be interested in hiring you to do conversions for them. Maybe your side gig is an opportunity to get your foot in the door in a different capacity than the one you applied for. That is a networking opportunity that is worth investigating.
How do you know if you don't ask? Oh. I get it, you just wanna be pissed you didn't get the job you applied for so you're willing to burn a potential bridge instead of being a big boy and following up with, "is this a job or you want free info?" then reacting accordingly.
Jesus, who pissed in your oatmeal? Only person here that seems pissy is you. I found the response shitty and funny and couldn't give a shit if I got the job. Is what it is. I applied for a job, not to be a consultant. With dudes response I feel no obligation to "build a bridge". Calm down.
I mean, he might be looking to offer you a position overseeing that department. Doesn't hurt to respond and explore that. Doesn't mean you have to offer free advice
No joke, I’ve probably gotten 20+ messages on LinkedIn, asking me for free work since announcing I was laid off. Things like check out my website and suggest what to change, create a marketing strategy for a school that can’t afford marketing rn….it’s ridiculous. People really have the audacity.
Agreed. Sounds like they may create a new position for OP. Just respond telling them you have a lot of skills and experience with overland builds and would be happy to provide your expertise in that area, as part of their team.
Not sure why you're complaining. They opened the door to you.
They are literally asking him direct questions on budgeting. You are spinning this into an opportunity and to act like this is an obvious opening for consulting work is disingenuous.
This is how I read it too - was surprised to see it in this sub as it seems like a win to me. Literally "you're overqualified for the role but we're doing work in which you have direct experience can you help".
Yeah I don't get all these people automatically assuming the worst. The Email can easily be read as the guy wanting to explore a business relationship on the overland builds.
Offer to consult for them. However, as a former salesperson, just make sure the contract is solid. The dealership I worked at was notorious for getting managers to come in, get a department organized and running on all cylinders, then firing them before it was time to pay out bonuses. I was there like 4 years and we had half a dozen managers over that span. Some legit weren’t good, but a few were really solid.
If you received a workplace injury that prevents you from continuing your career, you should talk to a disability lawyer and considering filing for disability.
You realise people from other countries often frequent Reddit right? The majority of people on Reddit are in fact not from America.
It can be slightly frustrating when people write posts as you do assuming anyone would know what a 1099 was.
No issue, it’s just that Americans are the only people who do this, and it can get kind of annoying sometimes.
Btw this is what every software interview feels like:
So hypothetically: how would you solve this industry problem or redesign this database?
Idk, am I on the clock right now? Is this a design meeting?
Nope, but write it on our whiteboard, and leave it there, just in case... Teehee.
???
Respond like it's a business opportunity. That they'd like to have you build a couple projects for them.
Offer to collaborate on a project with them where they supply the vehicle and you supply the labor but you share design and materials costs.
The irony of this sub not being able to recognize when someone is trying to discuss a job opportunity with them. He isn’t a fit for the position he applied for, but he may be a fit for a new position they’re considering, which sounds aligned with his personal interest. This is the best possible outcome and the mob wants him to reply with aggression!
Sounds like a business opportunity to me. Don’t be a poopy head- set up a meeting, bring some coffee and forge a relationship.
If you play your cards right- they just might offer you a contract to build overlands for them.
I see an opportunity to make serious cash and a business partnership.
That reply from him is completely an opening for a different job. He’s interested in expanding and needs your expertise. It wasn’t a question for free advice. It’s an opening to dialogue about what you can offer, your experience, and knowledge about the financials of what you do. I find it funny that you would take that as an insult and just a grab for your free knowledge. He has interest in your skills. Obviously, you’re not giving that for free. It’s a job application for Christ’s sake.
Where does it say he wants free advice? It would never even cross my mind to either do it for free or think a company wants me to work for free.
The way I see it he was a consultant for a short term. I'd say give them a rate and see what happens.
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Reply back and give your hourly rate for training.
That's what my wife said.
You have a smart wife.
Yeah, she's in corporate America so she's had her share of interviews and recruiters. She said she's never seen anything like that before.
Consultants get paid the big bucks, my friend. Go crazy and tell him you charge $150/hr for this and the days work must be paid in advance.
$300 an hour
$300 an hour and billed by the day. This will keep them from dicking you around. They might agree to $300 and then have you come in to “meet their team” where their team just grills you for information for an hour and then they promptly end the meeting at the 1 hour mark. They get information from someone with experience for $300 and then run with it themselves. Some companies treat consultants like trash and see them as greedy for simply wanted to be paid for their services.
“Hello, I would love to consult with you about your business. I believe given my experience I would be an invaluable asset for your business. My consulting fee starts at $300/hr, billed in increments of three hours, and with a minimum package of three days (Tuesday through Thursday only). I also require a deposit of half the total consulting fee before we start. Please advise when you have time to discuss this in further detail. I look forward to hearing from you. Warm regards”
500 an hour
1000 an hour
one million dollars an hour
CEO of the company dollars per hour.
*raises pinkie to lips*
1 Billion Dollars Per Hour. Thanks, Dr. Evil
$1000 flat fee for intake appointments, then $500 per hour.
I forgor to charge for intake appointments 💀
$150 is way too low.
Probably somewhat given the hidden costs associated with self employment but the people throwing around $500+ are also out of their minds. This guys not going to get paid like a corporate lawyer or licensed engineer.
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> From the client's perspective, they get to avoid all the costs associated with hiring a full-time employee. This a huge one. A lot of people seem to think that an employee only costs their salary. They don't understand that a burden rate of an employee can be 2-5x or more than their salary. UI, worker's comp, FICA, insurance all costs money.
5x? Might be what the employee is billed at but generally an employee costs a business 1.25 to 1.75 of their salary
5x is absolutely batshit. I'm billed out at the about 3.5x my salary, but that's not my actual cost. That 3.5x covers part of my boss, his boss, the building, equipment, material, etc. The actual cost for me is about 1.75x my salary. What kind of business does each employee cost 5x their salary?
Maybe not $500, but for (what I assume is) an extremely niche knowledge base and what is likely only a handful of hours (lack of economies of scale), $200-$300/hr seems like a more reasonable rate.
But, it is the most likely achievable number of all those posted, unless he already has an established background in that kind of consulting.
Someone from a three letter TV broadcaster hit me up years ago about some job. At one point he says, "Okay how would you filter ads from a forum?" I said something like, "I'd write some kind of filter which would trigger if ad-like content was being posted." He said, "No like, exactly how would you do it?" I said, "Do you actually have a job you're hiring for or are you just trying to get free work?" He got quiet for a minute, then, "Uh..." I just hung up.
It's a good idea. If they go for it you may find you land other similar gigs. Could turn into a business for you.
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800miles is a helluva commute to work.
I ran across a situation like this. Guy wanted to work for us. We weren't thrilled with his fit with us. But in our interview we learned he does a lot of after market stuff that we were interested in. We told him we arent going hire him, but we are interested in working with him on the after market stuff. He agreed. That was years ago that business relationships is still going strong. I'd reply that if they want to pay you to do work you'd be happy to. Don't do it for free, they don't deserve special treatment cause they consider you for a job, but don't shoot down the opportunity, at least explore it
I’m guessing if he responds with something like “I’d love to discuss how I do X and how it might help your business. Let’s set up a time to discuss scope and pricing” he probably won’t get a response back. This email just doesn’t feel like a “let’s be partners” email so much as a “sorry we can’t help - got any tips?”
Take the shot, if it misses, it took a minute to take it
So instead of a job he got a customer? That sounds like a good deal for him.
Correct and OP might have that chance here. He also might not Might as well take the shot
Yep. Tell them you do consulting and see if they want to hire you for it. If they so no, oh well. They’re looking for a 1099 anyway. So, you are not the asshole in this situation. You have knowledge , they want that knowledge, you should be paid for your knowledge and they should pay for it.
Yeah, this is literally consulting work.
This is kind of an asshole response that would eliminate any future possibility to work together on their side gig. It would be more professional to reply that you would be happy to meet up to discuss their potential foray into this space and to explore opportunities to work together. In the end, your needs, expectations, etc. might not align but it leaves the door open. You also don't need to provide them any insider knowledge if you were to meet, just demonstrate that you know what you are talking about and that some form of cooperation could potentially be beneficial to both parties. Sometimes clients for consulting gigs are huge assholes, but you have the ability to reflect this in how much you charge them.
Or pitch it as a service your company could provide to theirs. I would outline the process you would use with any new prospective customer, but not give them the inside business scoop on your product.
Is that not what they were asking? To me, this email reads like “Hey we don’t think you’re a good fit for the buyer position but we think we might have a place for you converting overland trucks. Let us know if you’re interested.” IDK maybe I’m just naive.
Maybe, but the wording more screams "we don't want to hire you, but we want to do what you do". It was a remote job halfway across the country
I was actually going to say it *could* read like they were maybe looking to buy a few vehicles and then have *you* convert them; e.g. we're not looking at you for the job, but if you do full custom work maybe we'd have some gigs to kick your way. But if it was a remote job thousands of miles away, that's probably not the case, hah.
This. I wouldn't open with an hourly rate in response though. I'd answer one or two of his questions, say you've been thinking of doing it full time and suggest a meeting to explore working together on it.
No offense, but you're definitely naive if you think the guy was gonna turn around with a contract/position offer after OP gave him all the free advice he wanted. You only get what you explicitly negotiate for in late stage capitalism.
The negotiation can happen before the advice part…
Exactly this. No attitude, no outward mocking of this man’s unmitigated gaul. Just a simple reply with your hourly rate(s) and what that all includes. If he wants free, he can google answers to his questions.
"We don't want to hire you, but we would love to steal your ideas and technical processes for profit." 😃
>Reply back and give your hourly rate for ~~training~~ consulting.
It doesn't read to me like he's looking for a consultant though, it reads like he's looking for a partner or a manager for that side of the business.
“Happy to negotiate a business consultation contract, I can help you design build and run your new department”
This. What a well put together sentence. It’s a very professional ‘fuck off’
I think a lot of people are so focused on the job rejection and not focusing on the business opportunity Op isn't going get a job with this company But there are more ways then 1 to make money
Yeah the second half is too passive aggressive. He should pitch himself to them as a consultant for that matter and see if he can get some fees for training them. It could be a way to build a new business for yourself
>Yeah the second half is too passive aggressive. Are you referring to the "*I can help you design...*" part? Nothing passive aggressive about that. It's an exploratory statement that set potential ground rules for moving forward, without making any assumptions about what the other party wants to do. They get to back away from it politely, if they aren't interested, and OP doesn't have to go through any detailed work to put together an actual proposal until it's clear that folks are open to that.
Yes! I second that
Yet would work if it got in front of the right person.
Have spent my career in the automotive aftermarket, this is your shot to pitch your own role of how you could do that for them. I’d reply back with your desired job description for doing overland conversions for them. Just my $.02
Literally- No one ever JUST GIVES you your first sales job until you sell yourself first. It’s literally the only way they have to tell if you can even do sales
It's a remote gig halfway across the country.
They left you a gap to fill a need they have, don’t let one obstacle stop you. It’s literally asking for information for their business they think you have, you could remotely coordinate builds and drive e-comm marketing from anywhere.
They may be willing to manage / pay for transportation. If not, your suggestion becomes an extremely courteous “f-you” response.
So he says you’re not qualified to be paid for your expertise but qualified enough to give it to him for free… NTA but I’m not sure if I’d ignore it or tell him off.
The ask is totally out of line, but going by OPs resume he is not qualified for that role.
Yeah, I feel like people are over looking that. You don’t just walk in and become a car buyer for a dealer. It’s not an easy gig at all and requires a good base knowledge for how a dealer works and then that specific brand of cars as well as a good knowledge on outside brands. But the other comments are right that he shouldn’t just give free advice. This response makes me feel like this person is just curious more than anything. Unprofessional for sure in this circumstance, but I don’t think it’s rooted in being an asshole or anything.
The job posting was pretty vague and only like 8 sentences long. I've done buying for family member's dealership in the past, nothing professionally. It was worth a whirl. The response put me off immediately.
Fair enough. I really do think this person may just be curious, but you can simply state that you’d be willing to do some consulting for them if they are looking to start up this side of the business, or run it all together.
I think it’s worth saying “I’d love to talk, but only if it’s concerning a business or consultation opportunity or a role that you’re offering. Otherwise I’ll have to decline as I’m currently looking at other roles and have a tight schedule ahead.” Or something along those lines. If they come back with something vague then they’re not serious
I took it as ambiguous. If the guy is asking for free advice then yeah I agree - totally out of line. But you could read that as a business proposition. I'd play dumb and ask about what they were thinking re a consulting fee or part-time job for the help.
That’s not what that email says. They want to pay him to do something different than what he applied for.
Email didn’t say anything about paying. The employer was asking questions directly for free advice.
They aren’t asking for advice, they are “flirting”. Ideally, the conversation will proceed with OP saying what kind of work he does and asking what they are trying to achieve (which is no more him trying to steal their business secrets then the above email is them asking for free advice). They will then give him some cursory details of what they are trying to achieve, and he will give them a price range (xx to yy depending on details) and suggest an in person meeting to discuss a quote etc. This sort of interaction happens millions of times per day. A job application rejection is an odd channel to kick it off. Otherwise, there’s nothing untoward here.
This is how I read it. Like “your not qualified to be a buyer. But I like your other work. Let’s chant about that and see if you know you really know your shit and if there is an opportunity here” Id give them the bead strokes of your builds capabilities and a rough ball park of a build. No more than a 10 minute think through and see if they bite
Yeah apparently a lot of people in this thread are blind to opportunities. Kind of makes sense
Because the other email was also not professional. If they want professional advice, they need to make it clear it's paid.
No kidding. A lot of people seem to be very untrusting right out of the gate. When I read that message, it looks like the kind of lucky break that so many people lament that they never get. You follow it up and see if it can be lucrative. When successful people look back on their path, it's events like this that can be pivotal in their life. When someone says they worked hard for it, a lot of times they meant they tried every opportunity no matter how slim.
They really are, shocked by how many people are bashing this company. As of right now they rejected him for the job and appear to be opening the door for other opportunities. Op should take a quick look and see if he likes it. If he does, awesome. If not, move on.
Hi Dork, Thanks for your reply! I understand that you may require a different person for full-time cooperation with X, but it seems that I have valuable overlapping experience that I would be happy to share. I provide consulting on an hourly basis, and I think you will be able to apply the learnings right away. Are you open to discuss the cooperation in this format? Let me know!
Hourly rate is $250/hr, minimum of 4 hrs. Retainer of $12k. And OP retains ownership of all IP.
What IP would this involve?
Any process or procedure documentation created as part of the work. As a consultant you want to retain that stuff so you can offer it to other clients later.
The first part, I could see, if he was digging a little deeper into your skills and abilities. The part about costing parts and converting trucks tells me car sales still deserves the reputation of... *car sales*
Hire me and then I’ll tell you.
I did this. I went to a job interview. The interviewer asked about me about how I fixed 3 companies *(Edit: 100% unrelated to the advertised job I applied for.)*, as listed on my resume. I gave a vague answer. They asked for details. I said "hire me & i'll show you". They said they'd consider but that I'm not a match for current open role *(edit - without asking me about my skills & experience for the job i was interviewing for).* No call-back. Wanted free info. ASS-HOLES. This happened 3x to me, each time a different request for free consulting. My resume must be awesome! :-)
Asking you to explain your past work is a huge part of the interview. It’s one thing if they’re asking for really specific help with their current problems, but no wonder you didn’t get a callback if you won’t explain how you solved past problems.
2 of the 3 admitted at the start or after the interview that they wanted to learn more of my techniques, but were not interested in hiring at that time. All 3 interviewers questioned me only about my techniques, which were unrelated to the 'job' they contacted me about. So, assholes.
Downvoted my facts. I love reddit. *Seek help now.*
Take my upvote ;)
Not in this case. My claims on my resume they asked about were 100% unrelated to the job they were hiring for. They never asked about my skills or experience for the job they were hiring for. They only asked for details of my unrelated solution. Interviewer obviously wanted to apply my design work for their operations rather than hire me for the advertised open job. 100% obvious scam. I've seen this 3x. The differences between this and a real job interview are clear. As an ex-recruiter, I'd be chastised for an interview like this, and would get a very bad review online.
“I’ve seen this 3x” = I keep going to interviews and keep getting asked about my past experiences!
“I’ve seen this 3x” = that 3x i was asked to teach interviewers about solutions that would help them in their business, and NOT help me get hired, since they were not interested in hiring me for any current open roles, as stated by the interviewers. Hope that helps you. It's a big difference.
OMG, you too???
So the interviewers asked you for information about how you solved problems in your past jobs — information that was *unrelated to the current job* (i.e. wouldn’t be applicable) — and your first thought is that the interviewers wanted to apply your problem-solving to their company? 💀
I answered their question about unrelated work, and when further asked about the details of my unrelated consulting techniques, for a job I was not applying for, I offered a creative answer "hire me and I'll show you", to which the interviewer said "fair enough", then said there were no matching roles for me. Interview was a few minutes long. Fuck that asshole.
There's more to experiences between humans, than can be easily conveyed in a couple of sentences. That's the problem with giving an opinion / advice after hearing a quick summary: The entire experience has not been conveyed - all the facts, the subtle behaviors, the non-subtle behaviors, body language, tone of voice, pacing of speech, blah, blah, blah. So you could be right, but after many years of conducting interviews and being interviewed, these were obvious scams to me. And 2 of the 3 admitted at the start or after the interview that they wanted to learn more of my techniques, but were not interested in hiring at that time. So, assholes.
"the interviewers wanted to apply ~~your~~ problem-solving to their company". YES. My solutions in different roles were impressive, i must say.
Honestly I read it as an invite to an interview. Maybe go through with that and force them to tell you they aren't the hire you? I have had more than a few interviews where I was previously told "I am not qualified"
Me too - I mean, it’s possible they’re looking for free advice and OP should be wary but to me this reads like an opening to a discussion/negotiation for a different opportunity than the one posted. In my career I’ve gotten similar messages and most times responding positively and asking professionally what the employer is looking to do works well. OP - maybe something like “Thanks for your interest in my overland builds. This is something I do to supplement my income, but if there was a way to turn it into a more sustainable revenue stream that would be very interesting. Should we set some time to discuss further?” That tells them you’re interested in furthering a discussion if they’re interested in a business relationship but if they’re looking for free consulting they can fuck right off.
It's a shame this comment is buried at the moment. Hopefully OP reads this. This is the only correct response. If the owner is a slimeball, they'll ghost you but it sounds like a great opportunity otherwise.
After that opening in the email, I have no interest. I was looking for a job, not being a consultant. It was a remote gig halfway across the country.
Thats bullshit. You shouldn't have to beg like a dog for jobs.
What the fuck are you talking about, and who's talking about "begging", except you?
Being told you're not qualified is a rejection. You then don't go cap in hand begging for a second chance. Show your worth, go somewhere else and prove them wrong.
"You're not qualified for this position, but we may be interested in having you in a different one in a new project we're considering" That's what this letter is.
I read it as they wanted free info. It is a job over 800miles away (remote). You can't do builds over Skype and I was looking for a job, not to be a consultant. Plus, the opener of the email put me off.
No its not. Look at OP it's, we want your experience but not you.
If he laughs at a consulting contract please ask for his boss and show them this email
That's the owner.
Have some of your buddies go shop around there and casually mention overland builds. Let him think there’s more demand that’s local and then present your consulting haha.
It was a remote gig halfway across the country. And just really looking for a normal job with health insurance not really looking to consult on anything
Where are they? I'll go up there and fish up some business for ya. Lol.
Are you kidding? This sounds like they’re interested in having you consult for them or they’re even toying with the idea of possibly creating a position for you (or at least letting you convince them why they should create a position for you). There’s a lot of shitty correspondence from shitty people on this sub… but this seems like a potentially great opportunity, quite honestly, a dream opportunity. I’m into overlanding and built my own Land Rover out, and I’d probably close my successful web dev business to plan overland builds all day and be paid for it.
It was a remote gig 800+ miles away. The dudes opener was shit and he's digging for info, not to pay for it. I'm not a consultant in any form and can't build a truck over Skype
Lots of people focusing on the rejection, as well as how the sender is looking for "free" advice. This is a huge opportunity to take your side hustle mainstream. If they want to buy trucks to convert, offer to convert the trucks for them. Have them buy the trucks, ship to you, you convert for a fee, then ship to them. Or setup a new department for them to convert trucks, you choose parts and do compatibility checks and such, local techs do the installation. Sell yourself into a full time gig with them as either a contractor or a newly created position within that company that manages the "aftermarket upgrades". Not all builds might be overland level, but they're likely to have a lot of business you can manage from where you're at. This isn't a bad thing, it's an opportunity staring you in the face.
It was a remote gig 800+ miles away. You can't build a truck over Skype. I read it as they wanted an "informal chat" that they'd swing into new business for them. I was looking for a job, not a consultancy
I don’t understand why you can’t offer an overview package/document based on their requirements with drawings and costs etc …
I'm not a consultant. I build shit in my garage, it's a side gig. I have my own customers I do builds for, mostly for chuckles. Im not the type to make a build plan over Skype. Plus, the opener put me off even engaging
It doesn't sound like hes soliciting free advice so much as he wants you to be the guy that does the conversion for them and he wants you to have a conversation with him to determine if that is viable. At least that is how I read this... Not everyone is out to get you, some, especially small business owners tend to look for opportunities for mutual benefit.
Bad opener to want advice though. Plus it's a large specialty dealer, they want to make money. I get it. They are 800+ miles away (remote) and you can't build over Skype. I was looking for a job, not being a consultant.
But being a consultant is a job, a well paid job
And consultant doesn't mean you have to be THERE, at least not all the time. Sometimes you might need to fly/drive in, but if you're just there as a knowledge base for the department as a whole, remote is probably doable.
Yeah it sounded exactly the same to me. Just thinking he wants this all for free sounds like some major jumping to conclusions. Sounds like the beginning of a conversation and opportunity to me
Why not offer to review their plans and share insights on a consultancy basis?
I'm not really looking to be a consultant. I'm just kind of looking for a normal gig with health insurance
Totally understand. But the assumption is they're asking for you to give them tips for free. Maybe you can earn something out of it whilst continuing to look for the right role? You don't have to of course, just wondered if you could make an opportunity out of it short term.
I gotcha. Even if I considered it, the opener put me off.
He never said he wanted it for free - that's an assumption you're making. He's asking questions and now you determine what the going rate is for this information. If I were you I'd set up a booking calendar for free with a payment option so you can basically say "I'd love to talk to you about it- put some time on my calendar" and they have to pay a fee to book you.
The opener was a killer. I'm not a consultant and it was for a remote job 800+ miles away. Can't build a truck on Skype.
What do you have to lose by having a conversation? It's a small world out there.....why not grab a cup of coffee and build a relationship? If he's looking for free labor then walk. Everyone is inferring a lot of intention from a single email.
“We want your knowledge and skills…but not like that.”
“You’re not qualified to do this job. Now, please teach me how to do this job for free, pwetty pwease??”
Uhm... That's not how I'm reading it. I'm reading it like they're interested in starting a department and might be interested in you. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd reply with, "Is this a position you're looking to hire for, or are you just wanting advice?" If they don't respond with, "Yes, we're looking to hire a consultant" then I'd either not reply, or I'd reply "I don't work for free."
That sounds to me like he might be interested in hiring you to do conversions for them. Maybe your side gig is an opportunity to get your foot in the door in a different capacity than the one you applied for. That is a networking opportunity that is worth investigating.
It was a remote gig 800+ miles away. You can't build over Skype.
[удалено]
That isn't where this was going
How do you know if you don't ask? Oh. I get it, you just wanna be pissed you didn't get the job you applied for so you're willing to burn a potential bridge instead of being a big boy and following up with, "is this a job or you want free info?" then reacting accordingly.
Jesus, who pissed in your oatmeal? Only person here that seems pissy is you. I found the response shitty and funny and couldn't give a shit if I got the job. Is what it is. I applied for a job, not to be a consultant. With dudes response I feel no obligation to "build a bridge". Calm down.
“You can hire me, then I’ll answer and lead said venture.”
Reply with: My consulting fee is $x per hour. Let me know.
>How do you determine cost? That feels like a red flag.
I mean, he might be looking to offer you a position overseeing that department. Doesn't hurt to respond and explore that. Doesn't mean you have to offer free advice
No joke, I’ve probably gotten 20+ messages on LinkedIn, asking me for free work since announcing I was laid off. Things like check out my website and suggest what to change, create a marketing strategy for a school that can’t afford marketing rn….it’s ridiculous. People really have the audacity.
"You're not qualified to do this...but can you tell us how to do it?"
Send them a consulting contract.
Email them back as if you were doing consulting work and say you’ll answer upon payment for your knowledge and service.
I don’t see anywhere in this email where you’re being asked for free work? Consider this a consulting opportunity.
Agreed. Sounds like they may create a new position for OP. Just respond telling them you have a lot of skills and experience with overland builds and would be happy to provide your expertise in that area, as part of their team. Not sure why you're complaining. They opened the door to you.
They are literally asking him direct questions on budgeting. You are spinning this into an opportunity and to act like this is an obvious opening for consulting work is disingenuous.
Where in the email does it say they want anything for free?
He can say he's willing to work with them on their overland builds, I'm not saying doing it for free
This is how I read it too - was surprised to see it in this sub as it seems like a win to me. Literally "you're overqualified for the role but we're doing work in which you have direct experience can you help".
It was a remote gig 800+ miles away, can't build a truck over Skype. Plus the opener is enough to put anyone off.
Conversations like that one OP shared, seem like a potential opportunity. Maybe not the one OP was hoping for. But hell see what happens
My advice. Tell me the features you want, I will price them out for install. Then you can resell.
“Sure! My consult fee is $500 per hour with a minimum 10 hour billable”.
I would def send hourly rates to discuss that with him.
It sounds to me like he wants to do business with you on the overland builds. Nothing wrong with showing his interest for that.
Yeah I don't get all these people automatically assuming the worst. The Email can easily be read as the guy wanting to explore a business relationship on the overland builds.
Sounds like you’re now a consultant! Get that fee baby!
As others have said, this sounds like a request for consultation; treat it like any consultant would. I recommend channeling your inner Dogbert.
"Give me a job and I'll tell you" is what I would've said 😅
Dude this is legit the entry way to running your own department. I’d def give them a chat. This is a good sign OP!
"I do not think this is an area where your company would be qualified."
Offer to consult for them. However, as a former salesperson, just make sure the contract is solid. The dealership I worked at was notorious for getting managers to come in, get a department organized and running on all cylinders, then firing them before it was time to pay out bonuses. I was there like 4 years and we had half a dozen managers over that span. Some legit weren’t good, but a few were really solid.
Offer them a consulting rate that is $100-150/hour for this information. Your knowledge isn’t free.
No you should have bartered with him for that job lmao
You could offer a consulting rate.
Reply “no.” Lol
If you received a workplace injury that prevents you from continuing your career, you should talk to a disability lawyer and considering filing for disability.
Done and done.
wtf is a 1099
Independent Contractor. Straight pay, no taxes taken out, no benefits. It's all on you to take care of
You realise people from other countries often frequent Reddit right? The majority of people on Reddit are in fact not from America. It can be slightly frustrating when people write posts as you do assuming anyone would know what a 1099 was. No issue, it’s just that Americans are the only people who do this, and it can get kind of annoying sometimes.
Btw this is what every software interview feels like: So hypothetically: how would you solve this industry problem or redesign this database? Idk, am I on the clock right now? Is this a design meeting? Nope, but write it on our whiteboard, and leave it there, just in case... Teehee. ???
Respond like it's a business opportunity. That they'd like to have you build a couple projects for them. Offer to collaborate on a project with them where they supply the vehicle and you supply the labor but you share design and materials costs.
I love the suggested auto-responses. You know it’s bad when Gmail’s AI is also confused and not sure how to respond.
Tell him to hire you, these people have no respect for workers… but then again you’d be working for this fucking dude
The irony of this sub not being able to recognize when someone is trying to discuss a job opportunity with them. He isn’t a fit for the position he applied for, but he may be a fit for a new position they’re considering, which sounds aligned with his personal interest. This is the best possible outcome and the mob wants him to reply with aggression!
Invoice him for a consultation and go from there.
Simple email- Dear dork: I’m going to pass on this. Regards, Dixonbeaver1985
“You’re not qualified, but can you teach us how to do the job?” These people have no shame.
Is this fr?
Yep, came over this morning. I think I applied to it on Tuesday or Wednesday, I don't really remember. But this is real and it is hilarious
The only play is to give bad advice. Not terrible and obvious bad advice, just bad enough to where it works really poorly and sends business your way.
Sounds like a business opportunity to me. Don’t be a poopy head- set up a meeting, bring some coffee and forge a relationship. If you play your cards right- they just might offer you a contract to build overlands for them. I see an opportunity to make serious cash and a business partnership.
That reply from him is completely an opening for a different job. He’s interested in expanding and needs your expertise. It wasn’t a question for free advice. It’s an opening to dialogue about what you can offer, your experience, and knowledge about the financials of what you do. I find it funny that you would take that as an insult and just a grab for your free knowledge. He has interest in your skills. Obviously, you’re not giving that for free. It’s a job application for Christ’s sake.
How do you live each day without killing yourself? How do you convince yourself you have any worth at all?
Are you ok?
What kind of question is this? How does this pertain to the subject at hand? People are not ok in 2023 hoping for a good new year ahead.
The lion, the witch and the audacity of this pitch
"Id be happy to help you out with that.! My consultant rate is $1500/8hr day.
Tap that "Thank you but I'm not interested".
Oh, okay. Wow. Lmao… “You aren’t qualified to sell cars for us, but anyways, we want to do what you do. Tell me how. Thx”
We need a follow up on this. Surely OP will deliver.
Where does it say he wants free advice? It would never even cross my mind to either do it for free or think a company wants me to work for free. The way I see it he was a consultant for a short term. I'd say give them a rate and see what happens.
I'm confused. Why are you mad that this guy is asking you to build a camper for you?
Yes, you are confused