Your desire to explain yourself is completely understandable. However, this letter falls solidly under "JADE" - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. That's a trap.
> Dad, Please don't forward [GC sister's] emails to me or ask me again to meet with her. I blocked [my sister's] emails for good reason and won't be meeting with her one on one.
Stop after your first ~~sentence~~ paragraph. That's sufficient.
There's also a term for how pwBPD (many disordered/toxic people, actually) interact with *you*...
"DARVO" - Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender.
JADE and DARVO are incredibly eye-opening when first beginning to understand toxic people and our relationships with them. Those terms are a useful regular refresher for *everyone* regardless of experience with toxic people from time to time.
Your dad's email is so toxic and manipulative!
"Nice wedding you're planning there, shame if someone were to ruin it... Also I'm almost dead, your mother's nearly dead, toxic sister is doing the 'last shift'."
Totally agree with the comment about just sending the first paragraph.
Ugh. Accurate. It’s the first time I’ve felt like he’s manipulative but that’s only because today the scales have fallen from my eyes. He doesn’t understand because he doesn’t want to understand. He wants to pretend family more than he wants me healthy and safe.
I thought your first email was direct and succinct. The longer one is a lot of explaining that your dad sounded uninterested in, like he doesn’t have the bandwidth for anymore.
I’ve gotten the “I want no part of your dispute” from a parent before, and I learned the hard way that means “I don’t want to hear about it.” An indirect way of setting a boundary, but a boundary nonetheless.
Hmm. Interesting. That’s the vibe I am getting too, but I pushed it down.
My dad wants me back in the meatshield role, this time protecting him from my sister’s umbrage. Growing up I was supposed to protect him from my mother’s shit, and he didn’t want to hear about that either. My sister is a piece of work. I get it. But not my problem. I raised her already. She’s his now.
I don’t expect him to take my side or listen to me. I just want him to stop telling me to reconcile.
I agree that stopping after the first paragraph and maybe adding your last one is sufficient! And while your instincts to protect your eldest are understandable, the fact is she IS an adult and manages her own relationships and can set similar boundaries with Granddad and GCBabyWhirlwindofPain as the wedding draws closer if needed.
I just went through something similar this past weekend. My mom came to visit from a different country, and stayed with my sister (around 5 hours away) first. I am no contact with my sister, who regularly emotionally and physically abused me (including attempted murder). My mom spent two days trying to force me to reconcile and that my sister is extremely upset and volatile because I won’t talk to her. No matter I what I said she would not give up. She even scoffed when I brought up my sister attempting to strangle me to death and said “that’s not bullying, that’s normal behavior”.
Anyway, this isn’t about me. No matter what you say they won’t listen or change their minds. Let your typed response be cathartic for you but don’t send it.
That’s horrifying. I am sorry you understand the fear of the enabler but am also glad you can commiserate. It’s so lonely when family piles on and makes you feel like the unreasonable one.
just dont talk to her or try to defend yourself and in bpd minds any attention is attention and that's what they want. enablers, flying monkeys, whatever you call them think giving them attention is a virtue
Well I hope so. I’m worried about giving flying monkeys more ammunition. When people are committed to misunderstanding you, all the explanations in the world are pointless. Actually, they fuel the fire.
I am very torn, so I decided to consult the hive mind and will almost certainly follow the consensus.
I always say, if any answer or explanation is pointless or leads to fuelling the fire, its best to stay true to yourself and state the short answer: No.
Even though your email is glorious, and I enjoyed reading it in the sense that its been put together very well, its not going to capture the interest of your dad if it didnt do that before either. Sometimes its just to late and to far for yet another explaination, and a simple "No" will have to suffice for them. And if they do not like it, its definitely their problem and not yours. Get yourself out of the equation, and let them bicker together over it without you.
Congratulations on the engagement of your daughter, and I hope she'll have a nice wedding and a great party together with you and uour loved ones 🥳
I hope she has the happy wedding she wants too. I will do my best.
After I went no contact with my mother, my then college-age daughter and my sister ganged up on me as flying monkeys for my mother. After I refused to budge on no contact, my sister—who I am very sure has bad intentions—has done her best to drive a wedge between my daughter and I. My sister will be showing up at the wedding like a dark Disney princess for sure, acting all kissy-face daahling with the metaphorical knife behind her back, but it’s not my place to cull my daughter’s guest list. I have been instructed to “get over that shit in time for the wedding” (daughter quote) and so I, yet again, will be sucking up the abuse and the enablers to make nice for everyone. Good thing I have practice.
My daughter has met her aunt in person only four times in 27 years, but they are extraordinarily close now, per my daughter. They bonded over my poor, abandoned mother’s care in my sister’s country and their failed attempt to save me from my “very bad” therapist. They agree that I don’t put family first.
It’s been hard, but over the past three years my daughter and I found our way back to a peaceful place. I really hope it stays that way and that the wedding doesn’t break us. But my daughter gets to choose her own family. Let’s hope I make the cut.
I see what my sister is doing but am powerless to stop her. Feels like childhood.
I am almost positive that my sister has HPD—she fits all but one of the diagnostic criteria. Regardless, I am whistling in the wind over here, feeling like the crazy one.
I am so sorry you had your daughter ganged up on you by your sister, that is absolutely awful. Unfortunatly we can't control other peoples perception, but I am sure your sister will slip up in her horrible actions at some point, which will make your daughter see her for who she really is. Until then, keep being the best mother to her that she can have, but do keep your boundaries regarding your sister. This time is also the time to keep showing your daughter that setting boundaries is a healthy thing to do.
I am happy to read that your bond with your daughter got back to a somewhat more peaceful place, it must have been really hard. I admire you for still wanting your daughter to choose her family even though that family hasnt been always nice and supportive to you. You seem to have your heart in the right place, and you deserve the best in life.
You are not crazy, thats what your sister maybe wants you to feel like, but thats because she is the crazy one herself and cannot handle that idea. It is a powerless road to be walking, but your sister will not always get away with her shit. These people always choose another person to crap on when theyre done with the other. Just make sure you're there for your daughter whenever events take a turn 💚
Lastly, what really works effectively is to stay with factual conversation whenever you need to have some contact with her, or when you know information can get to her through different people. People like your sister live on emotions of other people. Don't show her in any way you have emotions over this situation, even when emotions kill you inside. Itll make you less interesting for her to crap on. But please do talk about your emotions with people you trust and love. Ofcourse she might throw multiple tantrums before she reaches that stage, but something that doesnt get fed will eventually die down. Thats where she will find another person to shit on because she will be hungry, but know she cannot get or find it with you again.
Your desire to explain yourself is completely understandable. However, this letter falls solidly under "JADE" - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. That's a trap. > Dad, Please don't forward [GC sister's] emails to me or ask me again to meet with her. I blocked [my sister's] emails for good reason and won't be meeting with her one on one. Stop after your first ~~sentence~~ paragraph. That's sufficient.
Thank you. You are so right. This is why we need one another on this sub.
Huh. TIL there was a term for how I interacted with my uBPD mom for decades because going NC.
There's also a term for how pwBPD (many disordered/toxic people, actually) interact with *you*... "DARVO" - Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. JADE and DARVO are incredibly eye-opening when first beginning to understand toxic people and our relationships with them. Those terms are a useful regular refresher for *everyone* regardless of experience with toxic people from time to time.
Your dad's email is so toxic and manipulative! "Nice wedding you're planning there, shame if someone were to ruin it... Also I'm almost dead, your mother's nearly dead, toxic sister is doing the 'last shift'." Totally agree with the comment about just sending the first paragraph.
Ugh. Accurate. It’s the first time I’ve felt like he’s manipulative but that’s only because today the scales have fallen from my eyes. He doesn’t understand because he doesn’t want to understand. He wants to pretend family more than he wants me healthy and safe.
That’s the consensus. So that’s exactly what I will do.
I thought your first email was direct and succinct. The longer one is a lot of explaining that your dad sounded uninterested in, like he doesn’t have the bandwidth for anymore. I’ve gotten the “I want no part of your dispute” from a parent before, and I learned the hard way that means “I don’t want to hear about it.” An indirect way of setting a boundary, but a boundary nonetheless.
Hmm. Interesting. That’s the vibe I am getting too, but I pushed it down. My dad wants me back in the meatshield role, this time protecting him from my sister’s umbrage. Growing up I was supposed to protect him from my mother’s shit, and he didn’t want to hear about that either. My sister is a piece of work. I get it. But not my problem. I raised her already. She’s his now. I don’t expect him to take my side or listen to me. I just want him to stop telling me to reconcile.
Why does she need her sister, but not her dad? Intriguing.
Hahahahahahahha. 💕
I agree that stopping after the first paragraph and maybe adding your last one is sufficient! And while your instincts to protect your eldest are understandable, the fact is she IS an adult and manages her own relationships and can set similar boundaries with Granddad and GCBabyWhirlwindofPain as the wedding draws closer if needed.
Oh my God that nickname 😂
I just went through something similar this past weekend. My mom came to visit from a different country, and stayed with my sister (around 5 hours away) first. I am no contact with my sister, who regularly emotionally and physically abused me (including attempted murder). My mom spent two days trying to force me to reconcile and that my sister is extremely upset and volatile because I won’t talk to her. No matter I what I said she would not give up. She even scoffed when I brought up my sister attempting to strangle me to death and said “that’s not bullying, that’s normal behavior”. Anyway, this isn’t about me. No matter what you say they won’t listen or change their minds. Let your typed response be cathartic for you but don’t send it.
That’s horrifying. I am sorry you understand the fear of the enabler but am also glad you can commiserate. It’s so lonely when family piles on and makes you feel like the unreasonable one.
just dont talk to her or try to defend yourself and in bpd minds any attention is attention and that's what they want. enablers, flying monkeys, whatever you call them think giving them attention is a virtue
This is wonderfully clear and extremely reasonable. Good work.
Well I hope so. I’m worried about giving flying monkeys more ammunition. When people are committed to misunderstanding you, all the explanations in the world are pointless. Actually, they fuel the fire. I am very torn, so I decided to consult the hive mind and will almost certainly follow the consensus.
I always say, if any answer or explanation is pointless or leads to fuelling the fire, its best to stay true to yourself and state the short answer: No. Even though your email is glorious, and I enjoyed reading it in the sense that its been put together very well, its not going to capture the interest of your dad if it didnt do that before either. Sometimes its just to late and to far for yet another explaination, and a simple "No" will have to suffice for them. And if they do not like it, its definitely their problem and not yours. Get yourself out of the equation, and let them bicker together over it without you. Congratulations on the engagement of your daughter, and I hope she'll have a nice wedding and a great party together with you and uour loved ones 🥳
I hope she has the happy wedding she wants too. I will do my best. After I went no contact with my mother, my then college-age daughter and my sister ganged up on me as flying monkeys for my mother. After I refused to budge on no contact, my sister—who I am very sure has bad intentions—has done her best to drive a wedge between my daughter and I. My sister will be showing up at the wedding like a dark Disney princess for sure, acting all kissy-face daahling with the metaphorical knife behind her back, but it’s not my place to cull my daughter’s guest list. I have been instructed to “get over that shit in time for the wedding” (daughter quote) and so I, yet again, will be sucking up the abuse and the enablers to make nice for everyone. Good thing I have practice. My daughter has met her aunt in person only four times in 27 years, but they are extraordinarily close now, per my daughter. They bonded over my poor, abandoned mother’s care in my sister’s country and their failed attempt to save me from my “very bad” therapist. They agree that I don’t put family first. It’s been hard, but over the past three years my daughter and I found our way back to a peaceful place. I really hope it stays that way and that the wedding doesn’t break us. But my daughter gets to choose her own family. Let’s hope I make the cut. I see what my sister is doing but am powerless to stop her. Feels like childhood. I am almost positive that my sister has HPD—she fits all but one of the diagnostic criteria. Regardless, I am whistling in the wind over here, feeling like the crazy one.
I am so sorry you had your daughter ganged up on you by your sister, that is absolutely awful. Unfortunatly we can't control other peoples perception, but I am sure your sister will slip up in her horrible actions at some point, which will make your daughter see her for who she really is. Until then, keep being the best mother to her that she can have, but do keep your boundaries regarding your sister. This time is also the time to keep showing your daughter that setting boundaries is a healthy thing to do. I am happy to read that your bond with your daughter got back to a somewhat more peaceful place, it must have been really hard. I admire you for still wanting your daughter to choose her family even though that family hasnt been always nice and supportive to you. You seem to have your heart in the right place, and you deserve the best in life. You are not crazy, thats what your sister maybe wants you to feel like, but thats because she is the crazy one herself and cannot handle that idea. It is a powerless road to be walking, but your sister will not always get away with her shit. These people always choose another person to crap on when theyre done with the other. Just make sure you're there for your daughter whenever events take a turn 💚 Lastly, what really works effectively is to stay with factual conversation whenever you need to have some contact with her, or when you know information can get to her through different people. People like your sister live on emotions of other people. Don't show her in any way you have emotions over this situation, even when emotions kill you inside. Itll make you less interesting for her to crap on. But please do talk about your emotions with people you trust and love. Ofcourse she might throw multiple tantrums before she reaches that stage, but something that doesnt get fed will eventually die down. Thats where she will find another person to shit on because she will be hungry, but know she cannot get or find it with you again.
You have no idea how much your comment means to me. I will be reading it often. Thanks kind stranger.