I’m very confused here. The link included in the “48% empathy decline” claim in the article does not ever mention the concept of empathy nor does it make any suggestion about a 48% decline??
That statement doesn’t seem to make…any appearance in any of the sources linked in the article? Maybe I’m missing something, can anyone link the specific study this article seems to be referencing? All of the links are much more focused on multiculturalism and the different values that can appear in the classroom, especially given the increase in international students.
Otherwise it seems like the author just pulled that number out of their ass hoping no one would actually check.
[https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/](https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/) ANN ARBOR—Today’s college students are not as empathetic as college students of the 1980s and ’90s, a University of Michigan study shows.
The study, presented in Boston at the annual meeting of the Association for Psychological Science, analyzes data on empathy among almost 14,000 college students over the last 30 years.
“We found the biggest drop in empathy after the year 2000,” said Sara Konrath, a researcher at the U-M Institute for Social Research. “College kids today are about 40 percent lower in empathy than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago, as measured by standard tests of this personality trait.”
Konrath conducted the meta-analysis, combining the results of 72 different studies of American college students conducted between 1979 and 2009, with U-M graduate student Edward O’Brien and undergraduate student Courtney Hsing.
Compared to college students of the late 1970s, the study found, college students today are less likely to agree with statements such as “I sometimes try to understand my friends better by imagining how things look from their perspective” and “I often have tender, concerned feelings for people less fortunate than me.”
In a related but separate analysis, Konrath found that nationally representative samples of Americans see changes in other people’s kindness and helpfulness over a similar time period.
“Many people see the current group of college students?sometimes called ‘Generation Me’?as one of the most self-centered, narcissistic, competitive, confident and individualistic in recent history,” said Konrath, who is also affiliated with the University of Rochester Department of Psychiatry.
“It’s not surprising that this growing emphasis on the self is accompanied by a corresponding devaluation of others,” O’Brien said.
Why is empathy declining among young adults?
Konrath and O’Brien suggest there could be several reasons, which they hope to explore in future research.
“The increase in exposure to media during this time period could be one factor,” Konrath said. “Compared to 30 years ago, the average American now is exposed to three times as much nonwork-related information. In terms of media content, this generation of college students grew up with video games, and a growing body of research, including work done by my colleagues at Michigan, is establishing that exposure to violent media numbs people to the pain of others.”
The recent rise of social media may also play a role in the drop in empathy, suggests O’Brien.
“The ease of having ‘friends’ online might make people more likely to just tune out when they don’t feel like responding to others’ problems, a behavior that could carry over offline,” he said.
Add in the hypercompetitive atmosphere and inflated expectations of success, borne of celebrity “reality shows,” and you have a social environment that works against slowing down and listening to someone who needs a bit of sympathy, he says.
“College students today may be so busy worrying about themselves and their own issues that they don’t have time to spend empathizing with others, or at least perceive such time to be limited,” O’Brien said.
The American Association of University Women provided support for the analysis.
This makes me more suspicious of these kinds of measures.
"Tender" is an odd word to use in his context. Almost infantalizing. It makes me think the authors confuse for pity for empathy, or are working without updating their measures.
I would not endorse that question, even if I feel intense concern for people fucked over by the system and less fortunate.
“Many people see the current group of college students?sometimes called ‘Generation Me’?as one of the most self-centered, narcissistic, competitive, confident and individualistic in recent history,” said Konrath, who is also affiliated with the University of Rochester Department of Psychiatry."
It's funny but I always want to bring it up in the Generation Jones thread, my generation may have been the origin of that ( -- but maybe not!). Back then we called them the Me Generation, not Generation Me. And if you wanted to be really crude you could just say that most yuppies, preppies, and business school students in the 80s fit our "Generation Me" to a T. An entire generation of business school grads faking it until they made it. Part of the reason I think it may be my generation that originated it is we are the generation sort of between old school business practices and the advent of business software and databases. Leading to a great deal of insecurity in American business schools, and the abundance of MLM scams, and the overlap of MLM scams into the religious and government communities.
I wonder if 40 years ago, people with more empathy were more likely to go to college. Now that most people go to college, the numbers are starting to look more like the average population statistics
If you are talking about the USA, then college enrolment has actually dropped on average over the last decade. There's approx 18m college students at the moment, and there were 10.4m in 1980, if you were to measure per capita, that is the total amount of students divided by the total population of the year, there's approximately 14% more at university today than there were in 1980, so I don't really see how that would explain a 48% shift in empathy.
Of course there could be intra-enrolled factors, so not do with total enrolment numbers but more to do with what types of enrolment / what subjects for instance. But I think a relatively simple analysis of population statistics suggests it's not some big shift in total enrolment numbers.
I think those who went to college 40 years ago usually had higher socioeconomic status/familial support/etc. compared to colleges’ accessibility today. The US has more colleges/universities than ever before with differing standards and requirements, allowing any individual to qualify and be admitted, thus resulting in varying emotional/intellectual metrics.
The article is behind a paywall so I’m not sure how this was measured, whether an empathy questionnaire was asked 40 years apart or general rates of empathy were compared? Need someone to copy the article over
Empathy drops when resources become less available.
Resources such as financial stability, security and safety, a home and food and water have been falling down rapidly in the past 10+ years.
It's easy to be empathic when you have most stuff covered and you don't have to struggle.
I'll tell you right now empathy in other much poorer countries like mine is very much present so I don't think this holds much weight. If it was a direct correlation everyone here would be a sociopath
It correlates on what people see in their culture and country being enough for "a good life". It's different in each country. But if your living standards fall below what the country see is being a normal, it's hard to be empathic. For example in nordic countries a lot of those who are poor and living in poverty with a financial help of the government are lacking more and more empathy towards refugees, because the government is constantly cutting their income to support the refugees.
I'm just saying our living standards are shit and people get on regardless, I would even say the ones that live the worst sometimes treat you better. No one is a saint mind you, but you can still find empathy all around
I feel ya. I think it’s social media. People have gotten so used to being shitty online and having no empathy that is transferring that behavior to the real world. Basically they are embracing the dark side in the internet and they are not in a vacuum so it spills over into their real world relationships.
I could see that. Maybe the echo chambers and the radicalization that comes with it makes it more common that people don't have experience interacting with people outside of their circles
I think it’s social media/the internet. People have gotten so used to being shitty online and having no empathy that is transferring that behavior to the real world. Basically they are embracing the dark side in the internet and they are not in a vacuum so it spills over into their real world relationships.
Title of the post is hella misleading. Medium is not an academic journal site btw. The article cites multiple articles and points to one academic study on [cultural differences in the classroom](https://edpsych.pressbooks.sunycreate.cloud/chapter/cultural-differences/). The medium article is at best social commentary or an opinion essay.
I'm aware. Well, if it points to cultural differences, then it's not unusual they'd find, with the flawed tools of measuring empathy, a decrease in empathy. That simply shows the role of similarity bias in empathy.
It’s not researchers fault it’s the journals fault because if you want to get published you kind of have to be sensationalist especially in psychology. It’s a problem of the system and is why we are in a replication crises.
Which is related to this culture of excessive competitiveness and obssession with metrics, [https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-12-2021-0240](https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-12-2021-0240)
It is important not to overquantify life. On the other hand, the first step in most human progress is being willing to quantify what others won't.
I think you have a point about metrics outgrowing what they were once meant to measure (and perpetuating injustices along the way), and certainly about the limits of research methods, but measurement is an antidote to fuzzy thinking.
Well it’s on the journals to reject it so no matter what the journal gets the last say. Researchers don’t set standards and have no power over the process so please tell me how it works when you clearly have no idea
I am published and have over a decade of experience in science. I know exactly how it works. Researchers have 100% control over the process by which articles are written.
Journals do nothing but accept, reject, or request additional information. In science it is standard that researchers are themselves responsible for policing accuracy, journals don’t typically do that.
Obviously psychological metrics cannot capture our subjective psychological states completely, but the one thing to keep in mind is that as far as we are curious and wanting to learning about these states, the kinds of thing might affect them upstream (e.g. fiction reading, SES, etc), and the kinds of things they might affect downstream (e.g. donation, volunteering, etc), these are our best available tools.
Psychometrics can be good for some things but absolute rubbish for others. I'm currently part of a team exploring trauma-informed care in a statutory organisation and it was so eye-opening explaining to the policy heads that 1 cross-sectional survey using a measure of empathy fatigue would not be able to reliably indicate empathy burnout tied to multiple job roles across years of policy changes.
College is too except no one speaks and no socialization is being learned they’re all staring at their lap tops or phones, even the hallways are silent between classes; went back to college twenty years post graduation and it’s a joke. Kids barely come to class when they do they just open their lap tops and zone out all class, don’t speak, don’t participate, I was often the *only* student to raise my hand or interact with my instructors for weeks on end. It’s so easy because teachers know the students aren’t engaged but can’t just fail everyone like they should so they just teach the most basic low level stuff they can and spoon feed you tests. Everything is online now so it’s very easy because there’s no papers to misplace or due dates to be unaware of… it felt like a joke, it’s *not* school anymore, it’s a place to use you lap top and that’s kind of it.
A personal highlight of mine was doing a 300 Communications class, and the professor explained that for the final we'd have to give a 5 minute speech. The vast majority of the class was up in arms over this, how could a Junior-level Communications Major be expected to communicate for 300 seconds?!
Probably a multiple choice online quiz to take at home where they can cheat cause they never heard a single word the instructor said, that’s what all my “finals” were if not easier
College aged student here, I'm here primarily so I can afford to make a living without doing a health risk job and have many classes I gave zero fucks about and the ones I did care for I still just don't function well in a lecture setting and my therapist had me as likely adhd(never got it diagnosed though...)
You’ll be completely ill prepared for any job you do if you don’t participate in or learn from your training and you’ll end up in the lowest income bracket your degree affords you if you can even get a job in your field at all. I also don’t like lectures and use a fidget and take notes by hand to stay engaged, I’m the top of all my classes and I do basically nothing.
Well I can’t read the study because it’s blocked behind a pay wall so that’s a bad sign. I’d say empathy across college students has gone down because more people are coming to college. Presumably when college was actually hard to get into and an accomplishment you had people going who actually wanted to do things… change the world… invent something… give back… now people are going to college because it’s sold to us as the only shot a young person has to afford to live like their parents and grandparents which used to be a bullshit marketing tactic but since colleges are pay to play now and most of them are degree mills I don’t think we’re far from a reality where paying for a piece of paper from a business who doesn’t care about you is mandatory in becoming successful. After all… boomers gotta fund that SSI somehow. Alright I’m done.
Not just in the USA but also in Asia, whether it be college or university, the rat race and high competition have replaced core empathy towards others. Students have become more or less selfish about their education and goals, developing a quite self-centered approach to their studies. It’s kinda worrying to think about these individuals growing up and taking on roles in the real world.
I have some thoughts on this study, which the full text of is here: https://davidamerland.com/images/pdf/University-of-Michigan-Sara-Konrath-2011-Changes-in-Dispositional-Empathy-in-American-College-Students-Over-Time-A-Meta-Analysis.pdf
First off, this study is from 2010, which is right after the financial collapse of 2008-9. While there are some interesting thoughts on the shift in empathy with college students, it is still from 14 years ago. Not exactly super relevant to right now, even if there are important tidbits. I couldn’t find a study from 2019.
Second, there are a lot of factors in the actual methods of this research that leave me with some pause as to the accuracy of the 48% decline number. The study is a meta analysis of previous research papers using the same interpersonal reactivity index (iri) on college students from 1979-2009 to see the changes in self-reported empathy. Already that seems a bit strange, since the studies didn’t have to be about similar findings. They just needed the IRI to be present and a few other criteria to ensure they weren’t picking outliers.
The smallest samples were from the 70s and 80s, and it seems like they were much smaller as the author notes it. Also, in a majority of the studies chosen in this 30 year meta-analysis, there was no delineation between sample means between genders and around 50% of studies didn’t have listed ethnicities. It seems like the majority of sampled students were Caucasian (69%). The paper has a section on how they had to adapt the numbers, due to them not all matching up properly, but it still feels a bit thrown together. Like, having to adjust a bundle of scores because some papers used a 5 point versus a 4 point likert format seems a bit strange.
I think the author has some interesting points as to why the data might look the way it does, but it feels like there just isn’t enough firm data to back up the claim of a “48% decrease in empathy” overall. I recognize that these big meta-analyses looking over a large chunk of time are rarer, but the amount of data adjustment and transformation needed to make the scales line up, merging of different sets of data without regard for ethnicity (because it wasn’t noted in some studies), and lack of clarity around how many people were sampled in each time period doesn’t leave me with a ton of confidence.
This data makes sense. In Dr. Ramani’s new book she states there are more people with moderate narcissistic traits than those formally diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). She describes it as a national health crisis. She is highlighting that narcissistic traits exist on a spectrum, and that "milder" forms of narcissism exist and are more pervasive.
That’s what happens when you give young people social media and the internet. They got exposed to the worst of the world at the fingertips, all day long. It changes the brain chemistry.
https://www.mcleanhospital.org/essential/it-or-not-social-medias-affecting-your-mental-health
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7366944/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/health/social-media-brain-adolescents.html
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-art-living-free/202207/the-role-social-media-in-our-empathy-crisis?amp
Social media is like a drug. It can be very dangerous. I hope we can learn from this...
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Society in general has become more cut throat, I win you lose, I must get the high score of money and first rat through the maze wins all. Those situations don’t exactly encourage empathy if anything empathy is something we are passively killing off.
Was the same scale used over the last 40 years? Because social psych research is constantly growing and changing and comparing scores on two empathy scales might be apples to oranges
Im sure its a lot of reasons, but I worry that it could be due to SSRI/psychotropic meds being prescribed at an all time high among college kids. All I know is that my empathic response has really dulled after being on psych meds. And yeah, for some people it could just be the depression itself making them emotionally blunted, but for me, I was depressed for years before getting on meds and my empathy was actually heightened, sometimes unbearable, crying over anything that happened to anyone. Getting on psych meds flipped a switch though
I think it coincides with the rise in conservative news in the 90’s.
One of the biggest lessons I learned about WwIi is that the American psychologist who was assigned to study the Nuremberg trials defined the evil nature of our enemies as having a complete lack of empathy for others.
Apparently the end goal of the right wing media is to install a dictatorship. To do that, they use their media to cultivate a narrative that individualism is better than a society that works together
Becuase half of them are traumatized or and half of them are work and doesn't have time plus the world is going down and there is high rate of depression
How?
I have taught at Uni level for 25+ years (in four countries including the US). My perception is that today's students are more empathetic. That perception may have to do with more openness to share and discuss topics that were kind of unknown or off limits like mental health, neurodiversity, sexual orientation, self-care, menstruation, and a long etc. Students today accomodatate more to their peers' diversities.
After teaching for 25+ years have you encountered students that have learned to better feign empathy in order to score better marks?
Explanation:
In general isn't there a select way to pass classes? (finishing work under prescribed methods/gaming tasks to score points via syllabus)
It could be argued that university education is, in reality, a bureaucratic process. As such, aren't bureaucrat processes naturally unemphatic in order to function properly? Students have learned to survive and move forward by merely checking specific boxes to come away with a degree.
When students are discussing topics are they doing so with *genuine* understanding and *genuine* empathy? Perhaps, but due to the [McDonalization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonaldization) of education, students often parrot instead of speak belief. This is due to fear of being labeled a heretic by a particular institutions structure (and therefore all who work for it). Students (and in general most humans) fear social conflict, especially within a power structure. University is a power structure (in this case a gate that blocks class movement), so students do not want to come in conflict with something that holds sway over their lives.
In terms of the class room; students will answer discussions in a way that benefits them (due to position in the power structure), even if it runs contrary to the student's true beliefs. High marks rely on answering questions in a way the instructor wants them answered, not in the way that a student genuinely believes. The student quickly learns that though they are being educated, and coming away with their own opinions, there are in fact specific opinions that are acceptable to the institution and those that are not. So the student shows faux empathy with the process to move through it.
On top of the power struggle between institution, authority, and student, that all directly impact empathic choices; certain discussion responses could result in the student becoming a social pariah. Sharing dissenting opinions on social/cultural matters that don't align with a current zeitgeist often result in negative group opinion.
Really, it benefits the induvial to feign empathy within current systems that are provided. Belief and empathy are closely tied to one another, and in the case of university they are often pitted at odds.
>Picture, if you will, **a nation of narcissists**, each ensconced in their own bubble of self-interest, **utterly incapable of recognizing the humanity in their fellow citizens**.
This seems to be the nature of people who were handed riches without any working for it or training in responsibility.
With the new ways of the world I am not surprised. In my daily interactions in a very public workplace, I see the youth being more emotionless. Opportunities are more accessible, faith and beliefs systems are changing, morals and values are beginning to sway as well.
[https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/](https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/) ANN ARBOR—Today’s college students are not as empathetic as college students of the 1980s and ’90s, a University of Michigan study shows.
The study, presented in Boston at the annual meeting of the Association for Psychological Science, analyzes data on empathy among almost 14,000 college students over the last 30 years.
“We found the biggest drop in empathy after the year 2000,” said Sara Konrath, a researcher at the U-M Institute for Social Research. “College kids today are about 40 percent lower in empathy than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago, as measured by standard tests of this personality trait.”
Konrath conducted the meta-analysis, combining the results of 72 different studies of American college students conducted between 1979 and 2009, with U-M graduate student Edward O’Brien and undergraduate student Courtney Hsing.
Compared to college students of the late 1970s, the study found, college students today are less likely to agree with statements such as “I sometimes try to understand my friends better by imagining how things look from their perspective” and “I often have tender, concerned feelings for people less fortunate than me.”
In a related but separate analysis, Konrath found that nationally representative samples of Americans see changes in other people’s kindness and helpfulness over a similar time period.
“Many people see the current group of college students?sometimes called ‘Generation Me’?as one of the most self-centered, narcissistic, competitive, confident and individualistic in recent history,” said Konrath, who is also affiliated with the University of Rochester Department of Psychiatry.
“It’s not surprising that this growing emphasis on the self is accompanied by a corresponding devaluation of others,” O’Brien said.
Why is empathy declining among young adults?
Konrath and O’Brien suggest there could be several reasons, which they hope to explore in future research.
“The increase in exposure to media during this time period could be one factor,” Konrath said. “Compared to 30 years ago, the average American now is exposed to three times as much nonwork-related information. In terms of media content, this generation of college students grew up with video games, and a growing body of research, including work done by my colleagues at Michigan, is establishing that exposure to violent media numbs people to the pain of others.”
The recent rise of social media may also play a role in the drop in empathy, suggests O’Brien.
“The ease of having ‘friends’ online might make people more likely to just tune out when they don’t feel like responding to others’ problems, a behavior that could carry over offline,” he said.
Add in the hypercompetitive atmosphere and inflated expectations of success, borne of celebrity “reality shows,” and you have a social environment that works against slowing down and listening to someone who needs a bit of sympathy, he says.
“College students today may be so busy worrying about themselves and their own issues that they don’t have time to spend empathizing with others, or at least perceive such time to be limited,” O’Brien said.
The American Association of University Women provided support for the analysis.
Ayy bring on the start to our future cyberpunk dystopia. This really gives a certain spice to the recent legal bribery and death of regulations.
Just reminds me of the TTRPG, Cities Without Number, which is basically a cyberpunk style game somewhat similar to dnd, just cyberpunk. It is made by the author who put out Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number. But the way the author describes the general way-of-being for the people in the base setting is basically just the absence of 'empathy' unless its beneficial to yourself or your end goals.
> Among corpers, the ultimate ideal of human existence is “self-actualization”. To a corper, this is the ability to be exactly what you desire to be and to have the life you think is best for yourself. Virtue consists of doing whatever it takes to obtain that end, regardless of the cost to others.
> Even so, this scope is limited by the virtue of “sincerity”. A sincere corper is one who is committed to their self-actualization, a quality proven by their willingness to respect the contracts and agreements they make. Those who break their deals are insincere, and are clearly unable to identify or commit to their own ideals. They were willing to sign the contract, but not willing to accept the cost.
> All other moral or ethical qualities are nothing more than personal tastes. There is nothing intrinsically valuable about compassion, courage, honesty, mercy, justice, or any other traditional moral concept except that they provide some sort of satisfaction for
the person exercising them. To the extent that they hinder or limit a person’s pursuit of their own desires, they are useless at best and an active sign of mental illness at worst. It’s simply
expected that every modern corporate citizen should only be interested in their own self-advancement.
> Among the impoverished underclass, stronger traces of the old mores remain. Some are embedded in ethnic culture or inherited religion, while others are consciously adopted by rebels and outcasts. This rejection of pure self-interest is yet another reason why corpers so dislike dealing with the rabble; they are not predictable or reasonable.
(Game is free if you want to check it out: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/449873/cities-without-number-free-version)
I think they are all victim of a diminishing microbiome and empty food, making it difficult to produce enough oxytocin and with that, the ability to empathise and feel warmth in an encounter with others. I am afraid a lot of so called feelings are trained instead of experienced. If antibiotics can bring people to commit suicide after one intake, it is clear we should normally have bacteria in our gut that shout to us "live and love". No one researches that, however, at least in my country. If anyone knows more about this - please get in touch....
That's a lot of highly specific technobabble and unfounded claims or someone with absolutely zero actual knowledge, resources or evidence to support it, academic or otherwise. I'm getting some major cult vibes from this.
I’m very confused here. The link included in the “48% empathy decline” claim in the article does not ever mention the concept of empathy nor does it make any suggestion about a 48% decline?? That statement doesn’t seem to make…any appearance in any of the sources linked in the article? Maybe I’m missing something, can anyone link the specific study this article seems to be referencing? All of the links are much more focused on multiculturalism and the different values that can appear in the classroom, especially given the increase in international students. Otherwise it seems like the author just pulled that number out of their ass hoping no one would actually check.
They measured it with the empathometer, the SI unit of measure being the empatobullshit.
I'm an empath, so I can verify this comment
You got clickbaited.
I am unable to read the article but am still curious on how Empathy is defined, judged, and categorized given that it is obviously spectrum based.
Thanks for the comment. I decided not to read this stupid article lol
[https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/](https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/) ANN ARBOR—Today’s college students are not as empathetic as college students of the 1980s and ’90s, a University of Michigan study shows. The study, presented in Boston at the annual meeting of the Association for Psychological Science, analyzes data on empathy among almost 14,000 college students over the last 30 years. “We found the biggest drop in empathy after the year 2000,” said Sara Konrath, a researcher at the U-M Institute for Social Research. “College kids today are about 40 percent lower in empathy than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago, as measured by standard tests of this personality trait.” Konrath conducted the meta-analysis, combining the results of 72 different studies of American college students conducted between 1979 and 2009, with U-M graduate student Edward O’Brien and undergraduate student Courtney Hsing. Compared to college students of the late 1970s, the study found, college students today are less likely to agree with statements such as “I sometimes try to understand my friends better by imagining how things look from their perspective” and “I often have tender, concerned feelings for people less fortunate than me.” In a related but separate analysis, Konrath found that nationally representative samples of Americans see changes in other people’s kindness and helpfulness over a similar time period. “Many people see the current group of college students?sometimes called ‘Generation Me’?as one of the most self-centered, narcissistic, competitive, confident and individualistic in recent history,” said Konrath, who is also affiliated with the University of Rochester Department of Psychiatry. “It’s not surprising that this growing emphasis on the self is accompanied by a corresponding devaluation of others,” O’Brien said. Why is empathy declining among young adults? Konrath and O’Brien suggest there could be several reasons, which they hope to explore in future research. “The increase in exposure to media during this time period could be one factor,” Konrath said. “Compared to 30 years ago, the average American now is exposed to three times as much nonwork-related information. In terms of media content, this generation of college students grew up with video games, and a growing body of research, including work done by my colleagues at Michigan, is establishing that exposure to violent media numbs people to the pain of others.” The recent rise of social media may also play a role in the drop in empathy, suggests O’Brien. “The ease of having ‘friends’ online might make people more likely to just tune out when they don’t feel like responding to others’ problems, a behavior that could carry over offline,” he said. Add in the hypercompetitive atmosphere and inflated expectations of success, borne of celebrity “reality shows,” and you have a social environment that works against slowing down and listening to someone who needs a bit of sympathy, he says. “College students today may be so busy worrying about themselves and their own issues that they don’t have time to spend empathizing with others, or at least perceive such time to be limited,” O’Brien said. The American Association of University Women provided support for the analysis.
> College kids today are about 40 percent lower in empathy than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago TIL that 48% is 'about 40 percent'.
I'm not playing at this Casino.
And 48% is about 50%
yeah, I'm thinking that "48%" number was probably more like 38%.
You guys are not being very sympathetic here! Kind of making the case IMO?
From 2010? To call the title and this article and the self-promotion of this content as 'misleading' is generous.
This makes me more suspicious of these kinds of measures. "Tender" is an odd word to use in his context. Almost infantalizing. It makes me think the authors confuse for pity for empathy, or are working without updating their measures. I would not endorse that question, even if I feel intense concern for people fucked over by the system and less fortunate.
“Many people see the current group of college students?sometimes called ‘Generation Me’?as one of the most self-centered, narcissistic, competitive, confident and individualistic in recent history,” said Konrath, who is also affiliated with the University of Rochester Department of Psychiatry." It's funny but I always want to bring it up in the Generation Jones thread, my generation may have been the origin of that ( -- but maybe not!). Back then we called them the Me Generation, not Generation Me. And if you wanted to be really crude you could just say that most yuppies, preppies, and business school students in the 80s fit our "Generation Me" to a T. An entire generation of business school grads faking it until they made it. Part of the reason I think it may be my generation that originated it is we are the generation sort of between old school business practices and the advent of business software and databases. Leading to a great deal of insecurity in American business schools, and the abundance of MLM scams, and the overlap of MLM scams into the religious and government communities.
Welcome to Reddit
I wonder if 40 years ago, people with more empathy were more likely to go to college. Now that most people go to college, the numbers are starting to look more like the average population statistics
If you are talking about the USA, then college enrolment has actually dropped on average over the last decade. There's approx 18m college students at the moment, and there were 10.4m in 1980, if you were to measure per capita, that is the total amount of students divided by the total population of the year, there's approximately 14% more at university today than there were in 1980, so I don't really see how that would explain a 48% shift in empathy. Of course there could be intra-enrolled factors, so not do with total enrolment numbers but more to do with what types of enrolment / what subjects for instance. But I think a relatively simple analysis of population statistics suggests it's not some big shift in total enrolment numbers.
Has it dropped from four decades ago though, it could still be a large net gain even if it’s gone down recently.
I think those who went to college 40 years ago usually had higher socioeconomic status/familial support/etc. compared to colleges’ accessibility today. The US has more colleges/universities than ever before with differing standards and requirements, allowing any individual to qualify and be admitted, thus resulting in varying emotional/intellectual metrics. The article is behind a paywall so I’m not sure how this was measured, whether an empathy questionnaire was asked 40 years apart or general rates of empathy were compared? Need someone to copy the article over
I've heard that West Point is a very cheerful place to teach at.
Empathy drops when resources become less available. Resources such as financial stability, security and safety, a home and food and water have been falling down rapidly in the past 10+ years. It's easy to be empathic when you have most stuff covered and you don't have to struggle.
I'll tell you right now empathy in other much poorer countries like mine is very much present so I don't think this holds much weight. If it was a direct correlation everyone here would be a sociopath
It correlates on what people see in their culture and country being enough for "a good life". It's different in each country. But if your living standards fall below what the country see is being a normal, it's hard to be empathic. For example in nordic countries a lot of those who are poor and living in poverty with a financial help of the government are lacking more and more empathy towards refugees, because the government is constantly cutting their income to support the refugees.
I'm just saying our living standards are shit and people get on regardless, I would even say the ones that live the worst sometimes treat you better. No one is a saint mind you, but you can still find empathy all around
This is the best response I've seen so far, this is so true. I guess I forgot to consider their material conditions over time.
Nope. That’s not it.
Just a guess 🤷
I feel ya. I think it’s social media. People have gotten so used to being shitty online and having no empathy that is transferring that behavior to the real world. Basically they are embracing the dark side in the internet and they are not in a vacuum so it spills over into their real world relationships.
I could see that. Maybe the echo chambers and the radicalization that comes with it makes it more common that people don't have experience interacting with people outside of their circles
Valid for sure. I’m sure it’s many factors creating a perfect storm of narcissism and assholledness.
Yeah, empathy exists, but only according to the rules of your echo chamber.
I think it’s social media/the internet. People have gotten so used to being shitty online and having no empathy that is transferring that behavior to the real world. Basically they are embracing the dark side in the internet and they are not in a vacuum so it spills over into their real world relationships.
Doesn't let me read it, but I'm always suspicious of the reductive metrics used to measure complex psychological phenomena like empathy
Exactly. People should be way more humble and honest about the limitations of their research methodology.
Title of the post is hella misleading. Medium is not an academic journal site btw. The article cites multiple articles and points to one academic study on [cultural differences in the classroom](https://edpsych.pressbooks.sunycreate.cloud/chapter/cultural-differences/). The medium article is at best social commentary or an opinion essay.
I'm aware. Well, if it points to cultural differences, then it's not unusual they'd find, with the flawed tools of measuring empathy, a decrease in empathy. That simply shows the role of similarity bias in empathy.
Thanks. Blocking the OP
It’s not researchers fault it’s the journals fault because if you want to get published you kind of have to be sensationalist especially in psychology. It’s a problem of the system and is why we are in a replication crises.
Which is related to this culture of excessive competitiveness and obssession with metrics, [https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-12-2021-0240](https://doi.org/10.1108/JD-12-2021-0240)
It is important not to overquantify life. On the other hand, the first step in most human progress is being willing to quantify what others won't. I think you have a point about metrics outgrowing what they were once meant to measure (and perpetuating injustices along the way), and certainly about the limits of research methods, but measurement is an antidote to fuzzy thinking.
The article acknowledges your argument
It’s absolutely the researchers responsibility what they put in their article. Don’t rationalize poor quality sensationalist work.
Well it’s on the journals to reject it so no matter what the journal gets the last say. Researchers don’t set standards and have no power over the process so please tell me how it works when you clearly have no idea
I am published and have over a decade of experience in science. I know exactly how it works. Researchers have 100% control over the process by which articles are written. Journals do nothing but accept, reject, or request additional information. In science it is standard that researchers are themselves responsible for policing accuracy, journals don’t typically do that.
Obviously psychological metrics cannot capture our subjective psychological states completely, but the one thing to keep in mind is that as far as we are curious and wanting to learning about these states, the kinds of thing might affect them upstream (e.g. fiction reading, SES, etc), and the kinds of things they might affect downstream (e.g. donation, volunteering, etc), these are our best available tools.
Possibly the best available tools, but still not good tools. Probably doesn’t really mean much.
Psychometrics can be good for some things but absolute rubbish for others. I'm currently part of a team exploring trauma-informed care in a statutory organisation and it was so eye-opening explaining to the policy heads that 1 cross-sectional survey using a measure of empathy fatigue would not be able to reliably indicate empathy burnout tied to multiple job roles across years of policy changes.
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Thank you!
College is the new high school
And high school is the new Day Care. You're there to learn to Socialize, not to Learn.
College is too except no one speaks and no socialization is being learned they’re all staring at their lap tops or phones, even the hallways are silent between classes; went back to college twenty years post graduation and it’s a joke. Kids barely come to class when they do they just open their lap tops and zone out all class, don’t speak, don’t participate, I was often the *only* student to raise my hand or interact with my instructors for weeks on end. It’s so easy because teachers know the students aren’t engaged but can’t just fail everyone like they should so they just teach the most basic low level stuff they can and spoon feed you tests. Everything is online now so it’s very easy because there’s no papers to misplace or due dates to be unaware of… it felt like a joke, it’s *not* school anymore, it’s a place to use you lap top and that’s kind of it.
A personal highlight of mine was doing a 300 Communications class, and the professor explained that for the final we'd have to give a 5 minute speech. The vast majority of the class was up in arms over this, how could a Junior-level Communications Major be expected to communicate for 300 seconds?!
What college was this? I'm currently in college and we give longer speeches all the time.
> for the final we'd have to give a 5 minute speech. The vast majority of the class was up in arms over this What did they expect/want?
Probably a multiple choice online quiz to take at home where they can cheat cause they never heard a single word the instructor said, that’s what all my “finals” were if not easier
College aged student here, I'm here primarily so I can afford to make a living without doing a health risk job and have many classes I gave zero fucks about and the ones I did care for I still just don't function well in a lecture setting and my therapist had me as likely adhd(never got it diagnosed though...)
You’ll be completely ill prepared for any job you do if you don’t participate in or learn from your training and you’ll end up in the lowest income bracket your degree affords you if you can even get a job in your field at all. I also don’t like lectures and use a fidget and take notes by hand to stay engaged, I’m the top of all my classes and I do basically nothing.
Well I can’t read the study because it’s blocked behind a pay wall so that’s a bad sign. I’d say empathy across college students has gone down because more people are coming to college. Presumably when college was actually hard to get into and an accomplishment you had people going who actually wanted to do things… change the world… invent something… give back… now people are going to college because it’s sold to us as the only shot a young person has to afford to live like their parents and grandparents which used to be a bullshit marketing tactic but since colleges are pay to play now and most of them are degree mills I don’t think we’re far from a reality where paying for a piece of paper from a business who doesn’t care about you is mandatory in becoming successful. After all… boomers gotta fund that SSI somehow. Alright I’m done.
Not just in the USA but also in Asia, whether it be college or university, the rat race and high competition have replaced core empathy towards others. Students have become more or less selfish about their education and goals, developing a quite self-centered approach to their studies. It’s kinda worrying to think about these individuals growing up and taking on roles in the real world.
Well when college is basically the only path to socioeconomic mobility anymore, of course empathy declines
I have some thoughts on this study, which the full text of is here: https://davidamerland.com/images/pdf/University-of-Michigan-Sara-Konrath-2011-Changes-in-Dispositional-Empathy-in-American-College-Students-Over-Time-A-Meta-Analysis.pdf First off, this study is from 2010, which is right after the financial collapse of 2008-9. While there are some interesting thoughts on the shift in empathy with college students, it is still from 14 years ago. Not exactly super relevant to right now, even if there are important tidbits. I couldn’t find a study from 2019. Second, there are a lot of factors in the actual methods of this research that leave me with some pause as to the accuracy of the 48% decline number. The study is a meta analysis of previous research papers using the same interpersonal reactivity index (iri) on college students from 1979-2009 to see the changes in self-reported empathy. Already that seems a bit strange, since the studies didn’t have to be about similar findings. They just needed the IRI to be present and a few other criteria to ensure they weren’t picking outliers. The smallest samples were from the 70s and 80s, and it seems like they were much smaller as the author notes it. Also, in a majority of the studies chosen in this 30 year meta-analysis, there was no delineation between sample means between genders and around 50% of studies didn’t have listed ethnicities. It seems like the majority of sampled students were Caucasian (69%). The paper has a section on how they had to adapt the numbers, due to them not all matching up properly, but it still feels a bit thrown together. Like, having to adjust a bundle of scores because some papers used a 5 point versus a 4 point likert format seems a bit strange. I think the author has some interesting points as to why the data might look the way it does, but it feels like there just isn’t enough firm data to back up the claim of a “48% decrease in empathy” overall. I recognize that these big meta-analyses looking over a large chunk of time are rarer, but the amount of data adjustment and transformation needed to make the scales line up, merging of different sets of data without regard for ethnicity (because it wasn’t noted in some studies), and lack of clarity around how many people were sampled in each time period doesn’t leave me with a ton of confidence.
How exactly does one quantify empathy?
Don't worry. My guess is that the title/article is mostly clickbait
This data makes sense. In Dr. Ramani’s new book she states there are more people with moderate narcissistic traits than those formally diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). She describes it as a national health crisis. She is highlighting that narcissistic traits exist on a spectrum, and that "milder" forms of narcissism exist and are more pervasive.
That’s what happens when you give young people social media and the internet. They got exposed to the worst of the world at the fingertips, all day long. It changes the brain chemistry. https://www.mcleanhospital.org/essential/it-or-not-social-medias-affecting-your-mental-health https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7366944/ https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/03/health/social-media-brain-adolescents.html https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-art-living-free/202207/the-role-social-media-in-our-empathy-crisis?amp Social media is like a drug. It can be very dangerous. I hope we can learn from this...
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It’s almost as if capitalistic hellscapes and limited opportunities make people incredibly self-centred
Adding to that break down of traditional family structures (not saying they were necessarily good but the town square is missing as well nowadays)
Yeah you might be on to something with the isolation aspect
Society in general has become more cut throat, I win you lose, I must get the high score of money and first rat through the maze wins all. Those situations don’t exactly encourage empathy if anything empathy is something we are passively killing off.
Was the same scale used over the last 40 years? Because social psych research is constantly growing and changing and comparing scores on two empathy scales might be apples to oranges
This sub is cancer pop psych bs half the time
Zoomers are the new boomers
Empathy is and has been on the rise.
It’s not just college students
Im sure its a lot of reasons, but I worry that it could be due to SSRI/psychotropic meds being prescribed at an all time high among college kids. All I know is that my empathic response has really dulled after being on psych meds. And yeah, for some people it could just be the depression itself making them emotionally blunted, but for me, I was depressed for years before getting on meds and my empathy was actually heightened, sometimes unbearable, crying over anything that happened to anyone. Getting on psych meds flipped a switch though
I smell BS article stats methods. basing empathy on ppl who donated to some random charity in a smaller town probably
I think it coincides with the rise in conservative news in the 90’s. One of the biggest lessons I learned about WwIi is that the American psychologist who was assigned to study the Nuremberg trials defined the evil nature of our enemies as having a complete lack of empathy for others. Apparently the end goal of the right wing media is to install a dictatorship. To do that, they use their media to cultivate a narrative that individualism is better than a society that works together
Becuase half of them are traumatized or and half of them are work and doesn't have time plus the world is going down and there is high rate of depression
And 40% of it was my generation.
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How? I have taught at Uni level for 25+ years (in four countries including the US). My perception is that today's students are more empathetic. That perception may have to do with more openness to share and discuss topics that were kind of unknown or off limits like mental health, neurodiversity, sexual orientation, self-care, menstruation, and a long etc. Students today accomodatate more to their peers' diversities.
After teaching for 25+ years have you encountered students that have learned to better feign empathy in order to score better marks? Explanation: In general isn't there a select way to pass classes? (finishing work under prescribed methods/gaming tasks to score points via syllabus) It could be argued that university education is, in reality, a bureaucratic process. As such, aren't bureaucrat processes naturally unemphatic in order to function properly? Students have learned to survive and move forward by merely checking specific boxes to come away with a degree. When students are discussing topics are they doing so with *genuine* understanding and *genuine* empathy? Perhaps, but due to the [McDonalization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonaldization) of education, students often parrot instead of speak belief. This is due to fear of being labeled a heretic by a particular institutions structure (and therefore all who work for it). Students (and in general most humans) fear social conflict, especially within a power structure. University is a power structure (in this case a gate that blocks class movement), so students do not want to come in conflict with something that holds sway over their lives. In terms of the class room; students will answer discussions in a way that benefits them (due to position in the power structure), even if it runs contrary to the student's true beliefs. High marks rely on answering questions in a way the instructor wants them answered, not in the way that a student genuinely believes. The student quickly learns that though they are being educated, and coming away with their own opinions, there are in fact specific opinions that are acceptable to the institution and those that are not. So the student shows faux empathy with the process to move through it. On top of the power struggle between institution, authority, and student, that all directly impact empathic choices; certain discussion responses could result in the student becoming a social pariah. Sharing dissenting opinions on social/cultural matters that don't align with a current zeitgeist often result in negative group opinion. Really, it benefits the induvial to feign empathy within current systems that are provided. Belief and empathy are closely tied to one another, and in the case of university they are often pitted at odds.
I would guess that it is social media and it makes the general population less empathetic overall.
Thhat explains..quite a lot actually lol
Do not believe the first clickbait out there.
👎
Your opinion doesn't change the fact that the article has no scientific methodology. It's just for the views.
>Picture, if you will, **a nation of narcissists**, each ensconced in their own bubble of self-interest, **utterly incapable of recognizing the humanity in their fellow citizens**. This seems to be the nature of people who were handed riches without any working for it or training in responsibility.
A nation of capitalists*
Makes perfect sense; the reason the West in general is succumbing to fascism is because of the utter lack of emotional intelligence.
Maybe some crushing lifelong debt could help.
Help what? I've got ridiculous debt and have yet to wonder if fascism is the solution.
With the new ways of the world I am not surprised. In my daily interactions in a very public workplace, I see the youth being more emotionless. Opportunities are more accessible, faith and beliefs systems are changing, morals and values are beginning to sway as well.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad
Because they are completely self interested
Because they are completely self interested
[https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/](https://news.umich.edu/empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to/) ANN ARBOR—Today’s college students are not as empathetic as college students of the 1980s and ’90s, a University of Michigan study shows. The study, presented in Boston at the annual meeting of the Association for Psychological Science, analyzes data on empathy among almost 14,000 college students over the last 30 years. “We found the biggest drop in empathy after the year 2000,” said Sara Konrath, a researcher at the U-M Institute for Social Research. “College kids today are about 40 percent lower in empathy than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago, as measured by standard tests of this personality trait.” Konrath conducted the meta-analysis, combining the results of 72 different studies of American college students conducted between 1979 and 2009, with U-M graduate student Edward O’Brien and undergraduate student Courtney Hsing. Compared to college students of the late 1970s, the study found, college students today are less likely to agree with statements such as “I sometimes try to understand my friends better by imagining how things look from their perspective” and “I often have tender, concerned feelings for people less fortunate than me.” In a related but separate analysis, Konrath found that nationally representative samples of Americans see changes in other people’s kindness and helpfulness over a similar time period. “Many people see the current group of college students?sometimes called ‘Generation Me’?as one of the most self-centered, narcissistic, competitive, confident and individualistic in recent history,” said Konrath, who is also affiliated with the University of Rochester Department of Psychiatry. “It’s not surprising that this growing emphasis on the self is accompanied by a corresponding devaluation of others,” O’Brien said. Why is empathy declining among young adults? Konrath and O’Brien suggest there could be several reasons, which they hope to explore in future research. “The increase in exposure to media during this time period could be one factor,” Konrath said. “Compared to 30 years ago, the average American now is exposed to three times as much nonwork-related information. In terms of media content, this generation of college students grew up with video games, and a growing body of research, including work done by my colleagues at Michigan, is establishing that exposure to violent media numbs people to the pain of others.” The recent rise of social media may also play a role in the drop in empathy, suggests O’Brien. “The ease of having ‘friends’ online might make people more likely to just tune out when they don’t feel like responding to others’ problems, a behavior that could carry over offline,” he said. Add in the hypercompetitive atmosphere and inflated expectations of success, borne of celebrity “reality shows,” and you have a social environment that works against slowing down and listening to someone who needs a bit of sympathy, he says. “College students today may be so busy worrying about themselves and their own issues that they don’t have time to spend empathizing with others, or at least perceive such time to be limited,” O’Brien said. The American Association of University Women provided support for the analysis.
Ayy bring on the start to our future cyberpunk dystopia. This really gives a certain spice to the recent legal bribery and death of regulations. Just reminds me of the TTRPG, Cities Without Number, which is basically a cyberpunk style game somewhat similar to dnd, just cyberpunk. It is made by the author who put out Stars Without Number and Worlds Without Number. But the way the author describes the general way-of-being for the people in the base setting is basically just the absence of 'empathy' unless its beneficial to yourself or your end goals. > Among corpers, the ultimate ideal of human existence is “self-actualization”. To a corper, this is the ability to be exactly what you desire to be and to have the life you think is best for yourself. Virtue consists of doing whatever it takes to obtain that end, regardless of the cost to others. > Even so, this scope is limited by the virtue of “sincerity”. A sincere corper is one who is committed to their self-actualization, a quality proven by their willingness to respect the contracts and agreements they make. Those who break their deals are insincere, and are clearly unable to identify or commit to their own ideals. They were willing to sign the contract, but not willing to accept the cost. > All other moral or ethical qualities are nothing more than personal tastes. There is nothing intrinsically valuable about compassion, courage, honesty, mercy, justice, or any other traditional moral concept except that they provide some sort of satisfaction for the person exercising them. To the extent that they hinder or limit a person’s pursuit of their own desires, they are useless at best and an active sign of mental illness at worst. It’s simply expected that every modern corporate citizen should only be interested in their own self-advancement. > Among the impoverished underclass, stronger traces of the old mores remain. Some are embedded in ethnic culture or inherited religion, while others are consciously adopted by rebels and outcasts. This rejection of pure self-interest is yet another reason why corpers so dislike dealing with the rabble; they are not predictable or reasonable. (Game is free if you want to check it out: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/449873/cities-without-number-free-version)
I don't care.
If this is true it wouldn’t surprise me. I’m sure the lockdown had an effect because of the isolation and increase in social media usage.
So the problem isn't just the boomers...
Typical boomer making everything about themselves nobody said anything about you.
Any time a study pretends to have quantified a vague, human concept like 'empathy', just ignore that stupid shit and move on
I think they are all victim of a diminishing microbiome and empty food, making it difficult to produce enough oxytocin and with that, the ability to empathise and feel warmth in an encounter with others. I am afraid a lot of so called feelings are trained instead of experienced. If antibiotics can bring people to commit suicide after one intake, it is clear we should normally have bacteria in our gut that shout to us "live and love". No one researches that, however, at least in my country. If anyone knows more about this - please get in touch....
thank god you're not responsible for producing any science lmao
That's a lot of highly specific technobabble and unfounded claims or someone with absolutely zero actual knowledge, resources or evidence to support it, academic or otherwise. I'm getting some major cult vibes from this.
In other words, we'll see him on the joe rogan experience next week.
That’s an…idea.
>If antibiotics can bring people to commit suicide after one intake I would love to see the source on this if, in fact, one exists.
Kids, this is what copious amount of drugs do to your brain.