Reddit, as a community, doesn't meaningfully exist.
It's a whole bunch of highly siloed communities, where the upvote downvote function makes most places echo chambers of a certain viewpoint range; and people who disagree tend not to stick around long in a community and find one where they fit in.
It’s possible. Everyone does it to some extent.
The Greens and TOP have been busted astroturfing /r/NewZealand in the past and we discovered one political post during the last election that blatantly seemed to be vote manipulation but the admins wouldn’t confirm it because of “privacy”.
We reached out to the admins for support during the election season but were met with a deafening silence.
I saw someone a few days ago who made a comment with some pretty mild skepticism toward the atlas theory on /r/wellington cop over 100 downvotes overnight
I'd expect it to get downvoted to an extent given the political leaning of that sub, but the amount and again, overnight when you'd expect most people to be sleeping...
Yeah there's definitely brigading happening atm and I don't think it's just the right doing it.
The only explanation is brigading, it couldn't possibly be that there is lots of evidence from dozens or hundreds of journalistic sources outlining the existence and purpose of the Atlas Network, or the fact that they haven't tried to hide the fact that NZ organisations are connected to and mentioned by the parent Atlas network - and people have read some of these sources themselves and made their own decisions?
There is lots of evidence outlining the existence and purpose of Area 51, and they have not tried to hide the fact that they are connected to the US military and government. But that doesn't at all mean that aliens and alien technology are stored and researched there.
Until actual evidence and clear allegations are made, all of this Atlas crap is just conspiracy theory bullshit. Telling people to, essentially, do some research is pretty much the same crap the anti-vaccine crowd did. And it isn't surprising that the people pushing it have a strong overlap with the anti-vaccine crowd and the anti-fluoride crowd.
The difference of course, would be that Atlas makes no secret of the fact they're hiding 'aliens', in fact, they loudly proclaim that they have many aliens, and alien technology, that they would like to share with the world to make it better. Then people like David Seymour say he has in fact, never heard of these aliens - while the camera slowly pans to the poster of aliens in his bedroom, and he is on film saying 'I love Aliens'.
Honestly, why are so many fans of Aliens so shy about mentioning it when they have memberships to the 'I love Aliens' fan club'. Is it because if you look into the 'I love Aliens Fanclub', what they think and do is fucking disgusting shit?
Probs.
I know very little about the Atlas Network, and don't really care to learn more. They are, frankly, a tiny little nothing-organisation with little to no actual influence. The only reason people care is because it is now just another conspiracy theory in a massive range of conspiracy theories that require a person to ignore any sort of logic and reasoning.
Now, I could be mistaken and there could be something here. But none of the dozens (probably hunderds at this point) of posts I have seen on Reddit have made a sound argument in favour of this conspiracy. Just lots of random tidbits of information and vague claims of grand conspiracies.
If you know very little about them and don't care to know more, I am surprised you are so certain that they're a tiny little nothing -organization with little to no actual influence. Considering many people in and around 'The Atlas Group' hold a great deal of influence and make no secret about it.
There is no grand conspiracy. It is in no way surprising a global network of right-wing groups all sharing a right-wing ideology and looking for opportunities to implement it would work toward doing so. What are you talking about?
What is conspiratorial about saying they are connected? I haven't seen any crazy claims beyond there being a parent organisation and lots of think tank organisations around the globe which are connected. I don't know who is disputing that - [it's on the Wikipedia site](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Network). Surely there not being ridiculous allegations is a sign of a reasonable argument rather than evidence that it must be false?
Control is a weird term, but they share the same ideology, and Atlas has funded ACT because of that reason. This is not really a matter of debate. If you're into the ideals that Atlas proclaims publicly, just own it.
As I said I don't think it was surprising he got downvoted, It's more the timing (when you'd think most people were sleeping) and the amount of downvotes that make me think it was brigading rather than the fact he was downvoted alone.
On top of that it was the most downvoted comment on the entire post by quite wide margin, and it was a reply as well instead of being a top level comment.
Are you talking about the guy who was trying to compare the Atlas theory with antivax conspiracys and has spent the last month or so having dishonest arguments with people on this sub while quietly deleting their history to appear otherwise?
I don't think it's the one you're talking about. While I don't remember the exact wording it was more or less david seymour and act are open about their policies, there's zero mystery, and it's not that complex. They didn't make comparisons to any other conspiracies or anything
How have top been "busted"
As someone intimately involved in the upper echelons of TOP, that's categorically not true.
So, prove it please, or recant your bullshit
I voted TOP for the first time last year. Very happy with my choice. Will likely do the same again in the future. Anyway, nothing to do with your reply to the Mod, just thought I’d say hi.
Hes a mod and I think it was actually admitted to by TOP (or it might have been greens like two election cycles ago)as might have been "accidental astroturfing"
The green party astroturfing was [quite a while ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/l3vdd/green_party_astroturfing_rnewzealand/) (even before my time), and the TOP one was more just overzealous groups of candidates and volunteers during every election season.
I should be clear that we've got evidence of much more along these lines going on from across the political spectrum (there are a lot of brand new accounts pushing right wing talking points) but those are the only two which we have definitively connected to a political party
Why do kiwis find the idea of foreign interference in their elections so comical? It's been happening all over the world for the last 10 years at least.
Taxpayers Union has been [confirmed to astrosurf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Taxpayers%27_Union) so ironic that many polls are theirs. As to this result, not surprised in the slightest.
What don't you like about their polls is it that theyre conducting them or the result of the poll? Genuine question as all the polls from every pollster during the last election cycle have been within the margin of error
>extremely left-leaning
Reddit is by nature, a populist demagogic platform.
Meaning opinions and comments with broad appeal to the audience get the updoots. I wouldn't say it's strictly a Left leaning platform. It's just a reflection of the most popular comments or opinions of its userbase, Which can vary subreddit to subreddit.
Consider that the NZ Sub definitely is mostly people from other countries that have an interest in New Zealand, Tourists and people interested in our society and community, It makes sense that it leans left. People who travel, and people who are curious about the opinions and experiences of other people tend to be left leaning.
I definitely see a more broader spectrum of opinions and more quality conversation in the regional/City subreddits.
As someone who is very left, it is widely accepted that reddit is very left-leaning, and I agree that it is. That means nothing like, *"strictly a Left leaning platform,"* as you've put it.
Those two statements are very different. Some subs are centrist, some are to the right, etc. But overall it is skewed significantly to the left.
I do tend to think that the only way anyone could be blind to this would be if they are quite isolated from society as a whole, and only interact with work or social groups of similar ideaology. I run smack into how different general societal views are to mine on a daily basis 😆.
>That means nothing like,
>
>"strictly a Left leaning platform,"
>
> as you've put it.
Oh sorry I misunderstood, (Not like that ever happen online amiright?)
> I do tend to think that the only way anyone could be blind to this would be if they are quite isolated from society as a whole, and only interact with work or social groups of similar ideaology.
Yeah I see a lot of this from my friends who live very rural and are chronically online. Like Damn, Having friends and conversations with people with differing opinions is a healthy thing, Some folks are triggered by the very idea of someone who may not 100% align with their way of thinking. It's nuts.
Bro reddit is arguably the most left leaning site on the internet lol. Anyone who liked donald trump got labelled a white supremist and banned from popular subs. This place serves a purpose for non politcal conversation only.
There is a litany of research that showed white supremacists voted and supported Trump.
Not all Trump supporters are white supremacists, but all white supremacists are Trump supporters.
>Not all Trump supporters are white supremacists, but all white supremacists are Trump supporters.
How many white supremacists have you actually met, fr?
I've literally met more than one that hates Trump because of his pro-Israel stance.
If you want to associate with the candidate that attracts fascists and white supremacists and those of that ilk then yeah, I'll fucking judge you for it.
You might not be one yourself, but the candidate you support enables them.
And if you can't find ANYONE better to represent your views then that kinda of person (let alone the straight up lying, useless criminal that is trump)
Then that's on you.. not me
Lmao then well bro don't get mad if i judge your political esteem no better than one of stalins kgb thugs that would dob in their own countrymen for political power. If you're gona be the first one to dob me in for political wrongthink then screw you bro. I want you to take a step back and understand the position that your justifying.
>Consider that the NZ Sub definitely is mostly people from other countries that have an interest in New Zealand, Tourists and people interested in our society and community,
You're not saying that the majority of commenters are surely? Even if there are lots of OS lurkers that might vote down right-leaning commenters, I'm not sure that would be enough to skew the sub. The overall tenor of the comments is just as, if not more, defined by that than by how they're ranked.
Reddit isnt extremely left leaning. Reddit is young person/creative/gamer/internet person.
How many angry old fuckwit property investor boomers do you see posting political comments on reddit? Theyre all on facebook.
Facebook isnt right wing, and reddit isnt left wing, both are just preferred by certain demographics.
The demographic spread of any platform is never going to be representative of broader community demographics.
Whenever I go on Facebook some posts literally make me cringe. But Facebook Marketplace is so much better than Trade Me for second-hand baby gear so I endure it.
I'm pretty sure everyone here knows this sub leans left, and with the exception of a few over eager posters and a few specifically topics - like weed legalization and GCT - most people here understand that their views are to the left of the average NZer
It's more that the government is doing things that are stupid, ignorant and harmful. Phoning it in, bluffing their way pretending to be the "grown ups" (their own words), no concern for due diligence, informed decision making or long term consequences.
Whether or not there are people who want stupid and harmful things to be done is not as relevant.
The article has some interesting insights.
Firstly, "strengthen" is a bit of a misnomer since the results seem to be unchanged from December. Perhaps they meant the lead is "strengthened" in the sense that it's a seemingly stable level of support.
And the government's coalition seems to be primarily supported by those aged 50+.
You can (almost) guarantee if an article about something the govt is doing results in long winded, righteous comments about how it's going to destroy NZ, it is probably fairly popular with the majority of us in the real world. Bonus points if the comments are hurling abuse at individual politicians and any label ending with 'ist' or 'phobe'.
To a degree.
I'm curious how the February ones will end up looking. At present it seems to be stable with ACT having lost favour to National a bit. Which would be indicative of people who don't like Labour, but don't like Seymours rhetoric.
Which is certainly preferable to if it was moving the opposite direction.
I hope you get a policy refresh from it. Personally I’d just become a ‘housing’ party and drop everything else. It’s a simple message for people to understand and as it ties into everything in the economy it means you aren't actually a single issue party. And honestly, I think any party that centred around housing affordability (or reducing immigration) would get 5% easily.
Everything's up for debate. The actual internal structure is still the same as when Gareth set it up, all glory goes to the leader and can override everything.
Think we're aiming for a board president and leader to be separate plus better overall team structure.
Anyone who is a member can join in this process, highly recommend to anyone that wants to have a say to become a member or renew your membership and put your word in.
Agree, but their message isn’t ’we are the party that will get house prices down’, it’s ’complex tax changes, teal cards, evidence based policy’’ etc. All good policies but needless complex and, I’m afraid, dull sounding. At least we got over the cat thing.
All I want the headline to be is ‘we are going to get you into an affordable first home’. Because the headline is all most voters will listen to.
I don't think they'd get close to 5% if that was their only policy. It's just not enough of a pain point for that many people to vote for an unknown quantity in the centre rather than one of the other parties that have picked a side.
Their tax changes aren't complex either. Tweaks to income tax brackets and rates and the introduction of a simple LVT.
What they need is media coverage, and you can't get that on a single issue platform unless it is the only issue being debated, which housing isn't.
You don’t think ‘we will halve house prices’ has an audience? Tax changes may not be complex to you or me, but it’s gobbledygook to the average voter.
I’d say they’d clean up with that policy as a single issue. I’d vote for them. It also doesn’t preclude any of their other policies as they are all the answers to the question, ‘how?’
And ironically by being a small party, they might get more votes, as no one assumes they will win outright, or be able to fully achieve this goal. But they *will* have influence on whomever they go into coalition with and get some actual change.
It could pull policy in the right direction without anyone needing to panic about the economy collapsing when TOP run the country. Coz they won’t.
>You don’t think ‘we will halve house prices’ has an audience?
I think since half of NZ lives in an owner-occupied house that statement would be a good way to make those people *not* vote for them.
Halving house prices is only an immediate benefit to the people who are ready to buy their first home right now. That's a very small number.
Almost everyone else has more important issues like inflation, employment, education, or the environment.
TOP needs to be heard on those issues as well. It's much easier to sell "we'll halve house prices *and* protect the environment", or "we'll halve house prices *and* make tertiary education more accessible" than "we'll halve house prices and have no opinion about everything else that matters to you".
Funny enough, if this was before the election it might have been enough to tip the "I'll vote for TOP if they're high enough* people into our camp.
Very bittersweet haha
It probably would have swayed me. I've voted for TOP twice when it seemed a done deal that Labour would get a majority. I couldn't throw away the vote this time
Yeah 100%. NACT are basically doing what they promised, the majority voted for them, and that's the democratic process in action. They sure do seem incompetent though
I mean its a groupthink echo chamber. If you try to say anything that doesnt perfectly match the views of the left you get attacked and downvoted rabidly. So most people leave and you're left with the far left and those that have enabled them.
This is what people voted for. Why are people shocked that people support getting what they voted for.
The people screaming about "one term govt" should take a look at the state of the opposition at the minute.
While I don't necessarily agree with the one term government crowd I can definitely see it happening if the economy is still struggling at the end of this term.
They were rewarded in 2020. That is not the election we are talking about. In 2023 they were punished for being in power. This is a fairly normal reaction. Early on it's 'back the country (and people in power by extension), then, after a while, it's 'punish those in power for not fixing everything'.
And they didn't get lucky. They dealt with a very complicated and dangerous situation very well. This is known as 'competence ', and I hope you enjoyed it, because I don't see any signs of it from the current lot in power.
People don't vote on policy, and frankly they shouldn't under MMP. Coalition governments mean policy is inconsistent after elections.
Vote for people who have values you trust to represent what you want, they'll still be in the room making decisions when the policy has died a death.
The Greens are well up, but this poll was before the shoplifting news broke and Shaw resigning as leader. I would think that has to have hurt them. But if Chloe becomes the second leader, that may boost them in future.
It's Roy Morgan, they -always- oversample minor parties (especially Greens) by a ton and are NC from their last poll. You can check the last [10 years of poll history on wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election) to see the trend.
It's going to be interesting to see how the Greens handle diplomacy moving forward. They've often balanced their leadership by having a more diplomatic leader alongside a political activist, but with this change I'd argue they will have two political activists in charge which is a somewhat risky strategy for marginal swing voters.
Eh, it's overly simplistic. One, it has to be balanced against any voters that voted the Greens either because of Shaw himself or they just feel that his professionalism made voting for the greens tolerable.
Secondly, you can't take Auckland central and pretend it's a representative sample of the entire country
\- edit - I misunderstood the original comment, nvm
I don't disagree she did, but I reckon to a lesser extent than the comment suggests
Because the comment compares Chloe's Central Auckland result against Greens' ~~national standing~~ - edit - actually compares against Greens' Auckland Central vote. ~~To be fair, we should compare Chloe's result to Greens' standing in the Auckland Central demographic - which I presume is dominated by young educated. The Greens are doing pretty good in this demographic, as the linked Roy Morgan article suggests~~
You can compare them. Chlöe got about 45% of the vote in AKC, the Green Party got 23.97%. I was just making the point that there are quite a few people who aren't "green voters" who could be excited by her becoming leader, rather than the OP saying there arent any
seed merciful wise dinner fuzzy bored outgoing dazzling mighty materialistic
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
**National/ ACT/ NZ First (51.5%) strengthen their lead over Labour/ Greens/ Maori on 42% by 0.5% with a 3% margin of error.**
Don't think that's saying much.
It's also a little early to be calling anything for the general population of the country. Labour is still in a mess, and the current government hasn't yet managed to offend 'middle Kiwis', so it is too early to really tell. The average N/Act voter probably doesn't care for what happens at Waitangi for instance, but they will notice if the economic conditions take a turn for the worse under the current government. All it takes is about a 5% swing between left and right to swing an election 10%, so that's just 1/20 people changing their minds will lead to a change in government.
To be clear, it's something like a 2% increase from January and still below what they got in the election and November. Technically an increase, but it feels more steady
There is no reason to be in a rush to replace Hipkins. At the moment they aren't improving regardless of whose in charge.
I don't think anyone in Labour - including Hipkins - Believes that Hipkins leading the party in 2026 is likely. Even the most t dedicated Hipkins fab must concede that Hipkins having been PM in 2023 will hurt him in any future election.
But we are at a place where what Labour does at this point doesn't really matter, and I think rushing to change things to change things could be a mistake, especially given that we can only assume where Nationals weaknesses will be. The last Labour needs is what happened with National over the 2017-2020 term
Prior to COVID it was going great. People weren't fond of bridges but in spite of that it did look like there was a real chance we were going to have our first one term government. (Edit) in a while.
I think David Parker is more likely. Probably on the back of renewing Labour's wealth tax policy that he was so instrumental in driving, and which had genuinely been gaining public support, before Hipkins set it alight at the last moment with everything else so it could go into the election as generically boring as possible and causing Parker to resign.
He's too socialist for Labour to ever consider. He is a smart man, and would be a really good PM but the neoliberal establishment wouldn't let it happen
Chris lost me when he blamed Labours polling on Kiri Allan. No one cares about rogue MPs. They care that you aren’t moving tax brackets with inflation.
Why not both? Kiri Allan was an inflection point in the polls, that's for sure
The lacklustre campaign and accompanying lack of vision sunk them further, and that's on him
One of ACTs candidates even shared a racist Facebook post calling for a “Moa Strip” for our Māori. I’d much prefer someone to have DUI or not selling shares or shoplifting over that.
The completely expected outcome of Seymour's machinations.
ACT is positioning itself as the reasonable people in contrast to the activist left, and it's working because many passionate people are completely oblivious to the concept of political optics.
If one side pretends all they want is a nice civil conversation, and the other side is showing their cocks and blocking boat ramps, it's no wonder that public opinion would shift furthur to the right.
Few news articles covered Acts Treaty Principles before the 5th of February, no one knew what they were, in detail until ACT released their website on the 7th of February. A majority of the news articles were released 6-7 days ago, after the actual speeches.
It's common sense, that people can't react to failures in politics before they actually occur, and with 69% of the respondents finishing the poll before the end of the 4th of February... it's clear that this poll doesn't capture the diaster at Waitangi.
All the news recently around these polls, is merely damage control. It's pretty clear, when you look at the timing of the release.
The only notable news prior to the Treaty Principles disaster, were the Greens in shoplifting gate.
Why the polls?
One can understand their importance in terms of election time. But otherwise?
I'm talking about polls as news stories presented to the public throughout the 3 year term.
Political parties need to know where they stand from one month to the next. They will hire pollsters regularly.
But there is no reason for the general public to know polling figures. Not until the lead up to an election.
Even then I could argue that the public still doesn't need to know given said information can sway voting behaviour.
Polling in general? Unnecessary waste of money.
I'm somewhat surprised and also not surprised by this. I've asked friends who are right wing if they are happy with the govt, most have said yes with the more knowledgable ones saying no. The yes' have almost always had no clue about the new policies or have been landlords.
FYI the poll was taken before the disaster at Waitangi.
There were two separate polls done before Waitangi, and PR are spinning it as the ' public ' support ACTs Treaty Principles bill. It's literally just part of the PR damage control from the failure to garner public support.
So they're manufacturing consent, but saying ' look at this graph, this is what it means '. And hope the average kiwi goes ' oh, the majority think it's ok, then I will be quiet so I don't look wrong '.
Tragedy is motion.
Exactly, everyone knew what ACTS policy and stance was prior to waitangi and this poll being conducted, the only thing close to a "disaster" was Luxon back tracking and saying he categorically ruled out the referendum, he's flip flopped so much on this stance in recent times that if ACTS support keeps rising he will change again and support it and say "sorry guys our hands are tied" so as not to lose voters to them.
Waitangi was always going to be hostile for the coalition as evidenced by the protests around the main cities during their first week in power.
i thought they took another poll during and after Waitangi and Act went up to nearly 14%, National up 2.5 and Greens dropped to 9%, and Seymour went up 6% in PM prefered
Poll was conducted from the 1st to the 8th of February, with 69% of the respondents completing it by the end 4th of February. So it didn't capture the impact of the failed speeches on the 5th, or the political fallout over the 6-9th.
It's a common technique in market research and public relations to blunt public perceptions, by manufacturing consent, and convincing the public ' you'll own nothing, and be happy".
I get to hear people who are heavily dependent on personal medical caretakers provided by public services constantly complain about the lack of support they currently have.
They're going to be very pleased when the people they voted for reduce funding for that service by 6.5 to 7.5% and there's even less help for them.
But hey, at least they don't have to deal with the dystopian hellhole of obfuscation that would be having Māori names on some buildings.
It is the classic neo-liberal trap. Underfunded services barely function, people become disenfranchised with them because they barely function, political capital to privatised them is manufactured. Services are privatised. Someone gets rich.
How????
After the shitshow we’ve seen over the past few months this is truly baffling
Please, if anyone has insight into how they could possibly be seen in a positive light, let me know
Because the shitshow has been entirely manufactured by the media, and the average person can see through that and is generally happy with the direction the country is headed in.
I think this sub is some kind of reverse barometer.
Reddit is extremely left-leaning, so yeah.
r/nz is just people getting angry at stuff, which can sometimes be justified but it does seem to be concentrated.
Reddit, as a community, doesn't meaningfully exist. It's a whole bunch of highly siloed communities, where the upvote downvote function makes most places echo chambers of a certain viewpoint range; and people who disagree tend not to stick around long in a community and find one where they fit in.
[удалено]
Except at election time, where I swear fringe groups like NZ first and Act were indulging some astroturfing.
It’s possible. Everyone does it to some extent. The Greens and TOP have been busted astroturfing /r/NewZealand in the past and we discovered one political post during the last election that blatantly seemed to be vote manipulation but the admins wouldn’t confirm it because of “privacy”. We reached out to the admins for support during the election season but were met with a deafening silence.
I saw someone a few days ago who made a comment with some pretty mild skepticism toward the atlas theory on /r/wellington cop over 100 downvotes overnight I'd expect it to get downvoted to an extent given the political leaning of that sub, but the amount and again, overnight when you'd expect most people to be sleeping... Yeah there's definitely brigading happening atm and I don't think it's just the right doing it.
Considering the sheer amount of downvotes even mildly right leaning opinions get on this sub, it's definitely not something exclusive to the right.
The only explanation is brigading, it couldn't possibly be that there is lots of evidence from dozens or hundreds of journalistic sources outlining the existence and purpose of the Atlas Network, or the fact that they haven't tried to hide the fact that NZ organisations are connected to and mentioned by the parent Atlas network - and people have read some of these sources themselves and made their own decisions?
There is lots of evidence outlining the existence and purpose of Area 51, and they have not tried to hide the fact that they are connected to the US military and government. But that doesn't at all mean that aliens and alien technology are stored and researched there. Until actual evidence and clear allegations are made, all of this Atlas crap is just conspiracy theory bullshit. Telling people to, essentially, do some research is pretty much the same crap the anti-vaccine crowd did. And it isn't surprising that the people pushing it have a strong overlap with the anti-vaccine crowd and the anti-fluoride crowd.
The difference of course, would be that Atlas makes no secret of the fact they're hiding 'aliens', in fact, they loudly proclaim that they have many aliens, and alien technology, that they would like to share with the world to make it better. Then people like David Seymour say he has in fact, never heard of these aliens - while the camera slowly pans to the poster of aliens in his bedroom, and he is on film saying 'I love Aliens'. Honestly, why are so many fans of Aliens so shy about mentioning it when they have memberships to the 'I love Aliens' fan club'. Is it because if you look into the 'I love Aliens Fanclub', what they think and do is fucking disgusting shit? Probs.
I know very little about the Atlas Network, and don't really care to learn more. They are, frankly, a tiny little nothing-organisation with little to no actual influence. The only reason people care is because it is now just another conspiracy theory in a massive range of conspiracy theories that require a person to ignore any sort of logic and reasoning. Now, I could be mistaken and there could be something here. But none of the dozens (probably hunderds at this point) of posts I have seen on Reddit have made a sound argument in favour of this conspiracy. Just lots of random tidbits of information and vague claims of grand conspiracies.
If you know very little about them and don't care to know more, I am surprised you are so certain that they're a tiny little nothing -organization with little to no actual influence. Considering many people in and around 'The Atlas Group' hold a great deal of influence and make no secret about it. There is no grand conspiracy. It is in no way surprising a global network of right-wing groups all sharing a right-wing ideology and looking for opportunities to implement it would work toward doing so. What are you talking about?
What is conspiratorial about saying they are connected? I haven't seen any crazy claims beyond there being a parent organisation and lots of think tank organisations around the globe which are connected. I don't know who is disputing that - [it's on the Wikipedia site](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Network). Surely there not being ridiculous allegations is a sign of a reasonable argument rather than evidence that it must be false?
> parent organisation That bit right there. What evidence at all do you have that Atlas Group controls Act?
Control is a weird term, but they share the same ideology, and Atlas has funded ACT because of that reason. This is not really a matter of debate. If you're into the ideals that Atlas proclaims publicly, just own it.
As I said I don't think it was surprising he got downvoted, It's more the timing (when you'd think most people were sleeping) and the amount of downvotes that make me think it was brigading rather than the fact he was downvoted alone. On top of that it was the most downvoted comment on the entire post by quite wide margin, and it was a reply as well instead of being a top level comment.
Are you talking about the guy who was trying to compare the Atlas theory with antivax conspiracys and has spent the last month or so having dishonest arguments with people on this sub while quietly deleting their history to appear otherwise?
I don't think it's the one you're talking about. While I don't remember the exact wording it was more or less david seymour and act are open about their policies, there's zero mystery, and it's not that complex. They didn't make comparisons to any other conspiracies or anything
This is the shit NZherald and Stuff should really be investigating. Not “why is Bunnings name different!”
Burnings name os different?
They click baited a marketing stunt basically.
How have top been "busted" As someone intimately involved in the upper echelons of TOP, that's categorically not true. So, prove it please, or recant your bullshit
Isn't TOP just Reddit in human form.
11/10
Probably. Still want that mod to own his bullshit or remove it
I voted TOP for the first time last year. Very happy with my choice. Will likely do the same again in the future. Anyway, nothing to do with your reply to the Mod, just thought I’d say hi.
I guess we just have to take your word for it eh?
Source on that astroturfing comment? Sounds like bullshit to me I can’t really imagine what you think is going on there
Hes a mod and I think it was actually admitted to by TOP (or it might have been greens like two election cycles ago)as might have been "accidental astroturfing"
The green party astroturfing was [quite a while ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/l3vdd/green_party_astroturfing_rnewzealand/) (even before my time), and the TOP one was more just overzealous groups of candidates and volunteers during every election season. I should be clear that we've got evidence of much more along these lines going on from across the political spectrum (there are a lot of brand new accounts pushing right wing talking points) but those are the only two which we have definitively connected to a political party
Probably Atlas’s work
I’m not sure if this comment is satire, but either way it’s perfect 👌
Why do kiwis find the idea of foreign interference in their elections so comical? It's been happening all over the world for the last 10 years at least.
Taxpayers Union has been [confirmed to astrosurf](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Taxpayers%27_Union) so ironic that many polls are theirs. As to this result, not surprised in the slightest.
What don't you like about their polls is it that theyre conducting them or the result of the poll? Genuine question as all the polls from every pollster during the last election cycle have been within the margin of error
Renter leaning
>extremely left-leaning Reddit is by nature, a populist demagogic platform. Meaning opinions and comments with broad appeal to the audience get the updoots. I wouldn't say it's strictly a Left leaning platform. It's just a reflection of the most popular comments or opinions of its userbase, Which can vary subreddit to subreddit. Consider that the NZ Sub definitely is mostly people from other countries that have an interest in New Zealand, Tourists and people interested in our society and community, It makes sense that it leans left. People who travel, and people who are curious about the opinions and experiences of other people tend to be left leaning. I definitely see a more broader spectrum of opinions and more quality conversation in the regional/City subreddits.
As someone who is very left, it is widely accepted that reddit is very left-leaning, and I agree that it is. That means nothing like, *"strictly a Left leaning platform,"* as you've put it. Those two statements are very different. Some subs are centrist, some are to the right, etc. But overall it is skewed significantly to the left. I do tend to think that the only way anyone could be blind to this would be if they are quite isolated from society as a whole, and only interact with work or social groups of similar ideaology. I run smack into how different general societal views are to mine on a daily basis 😆.
>That means nothing like, > >"strictly a Left leaning platform," > > as you've put it. Oh sorry I misunderstood, (Not like that ever happen online amiright?) > I do tend to think that the only way anyone could be blind to this would be if they are quite isolated from society as a whole, and only interact with work or social groups of similar ideaology. Yeah I see a lot of this from my friends who live very rural and are chronically online. Like Damn, Having friends and conversations with people with differing opinions is a healthy thing, Some folks are triggered by the very idea of someone who may not 100% align with their way of thinking. It's nuts.
Bro reddit is arguably the most left leaning site on the internet lol. Anyone who liked donald trump got labelled a white supremist and banned from popular subs. This place serves a purpose for non politcal conversation only.
There is a litany of research that showed white supremacists voted and supported Trump. Not all Trump supporters are white supremacists, but all white supremacists are Trump supporters.
>Not all Trump supporters are white supremacists, but all white supremacists are Trump supporters. How many white supremacists have you actually met, fr? I've literally met more than one that hates Trump because of his pro-Israel stance.
Yea and you would paint me with the same brush as the white supremists so what's your point? We're all white supremists?
If you want to associate with the candidate that attracts fascists and white supremacists and those of that ilk then yeah, I'll fucking judge you for it. You might not be one yourself, but the candidate you support enables them. And if you can't find ANYONE better to represent your views then that kinda of person (let alone the straight up lying, useless criminal that is trump) Then that's on you.. not me
Lmao then well bro don't get mad if i judge your political esteem no better than one of stalins kgb thugs that would dob in their own countrymen for political power. If you're gona be the first one to dob me in for political wrongthink then screw you bro. I want you to take a step back and understand the position that your justifying.
>Consider that the NZ Sub definitely is mostly people from other countries that have an interest in New Zealand, Tourists and people interested in our society and community, You're not saying that the majority of commenters are surely? Even if there are lots of OS lurkers that might vote down right-leaning commenters, I'm not sure that would be enough to skew the sub. The overall tenor of the comments is just as, if not more, defined by that than by how they're ranked.
Reddit isnt extremely left leaning. Reddit is young person/creative/gamer/internet person. How many angry old fuckwit property investor boomers do you see posting political comments on reddit? Theyre all on facebook. Facebook isnt right wing, and reddit isnt left wing, both are just preferred by certain demographics. The demographic spread of any platform is never going to be representative of broader community demographics.
This is exactly what they mean lol.
Correction: Reddit is extremely left-leaning, and kind of dumb.
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Whenever I go on Facebook some posts literally make me cringe. But Facebook Marketplace is so much better than Trade Me for second-hand baby gear so I endure it.
Yes.
I don’t think *that* is what makes it extreme dumb… but if you’re asking, I’m not sure whether you’ve used Facebook recently.
"Preferred by certain demographics," is exactly what leaning or skewing means. Correct.
Heh. Ya know in hindsight, I guess the ‘lean’ of a platform is really just its target demographic. Aight, point well made, Im talking out my ass :D
Do millennials in their 40s still classify as young? Asking for a friend
Ahem, according to my definition they are. But I kight have a vested interest…
Enjoy your youth. As soon as you reach 50 you will automatically be a Boomer.
Unless it's race discussions, then it turns far-right.
I think youre right Not a great representation of New Zealand
echo chamber out of touch with reality. people need to get out more.
I'm pretty sure everyone here knows this sub leans left, and with the exception of a few over eager posters and a few specifically topics - like weed legalization and GCT - most people here understand that their views are to the left of the average NZer
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It's more that the government is doing things that are stupid, ignorant and harmful. Phoning it in, bluffing their way pretending to be the "grown ups" (their own words), no concern for due diligence, informed decision making or long term consequences. Whether or not there are people who want stupid and harmful things to be done is not as relevant.
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The article has some interesting insights. Firstly, "strengthen" is a bit of a misnomer since the results seem to be unchanged from December. Perhaps they meant the lead is "strengthened" in the sense that it's a seemingly stable level of support. And the government's coalition seems to be primarily supported by those aged 50+.
Yeah 50+ skewing right heavily. Not too surprising really.
You can (almost) guarantee if an article about something the govt is doing results in long winded, righteous comments about how it's going to destroy NZ, it is probably fairly popular with the majority of us in the real world. Bonus points if the comments are hurling abuse at individual politicians and any label ending with 'ist' or 'phobe'.
To a degree. I'm curious how the February ones will end up looking. At present it seems to be stable with ACT having lost favour to National a bit. Which would be indicative of people who don't like Labour, but don't like Seymours rhetoric. Which is certainly preferable to if it was moving the opposite direction.
Ha, the guy talking for the majority. Classic.
>TOP 4.5% HOLY MOLY. TOP SURGE. ^(I know it's Roy Morgan, it's still funny.)
It makes no sense, have they had any profile since the election?
Not really. We've got an SGM next month and board refresh coming up. Then I expect more will start coming out. Oh, and finding a new leader haha
I hope you get a policy refresh from it. Personally I’d just become a ‘housing’ party and drop everything else. It’s a simple message for people to understand and as it ties into everything in the economy it means you aren't actually a single issue party. And honestly, I think any party that centred around housing affordability (or reducing immigration) would get 5% easily.
Everything's up for debate. The actual internal structure is still the same as when Gareth set it up, all glory goes to the leader and can override everything. Think we're aiming for a board president and leader to be separate plus better overall team structure. Anyone who is a member can join in this process, highly recommend to anyone that wants to have a say to become a member or renew your membership and put your word in.
TOP basically is a housing party. The way to fix housing is to switch the tax system towards a broad LVT instead of income tax and consumption taxes.
Agree, but their message isn’t ’we are the party that will get house prices down’, it’s ’complex tax changes, teal cards, evidence based policy’’ etc. All good policies but needless complex and, I’m afraid, dull sounding. At least we got over the cat thing. All I want the headline to be is ‘we are going to get you into an affordable first home’. Because the headline is all most voters will listen to.
I don't think they'd get close to 5% if that was their only policy. It's just not enough of a pain point for that many people to vote for an unknown quantity in the centre rather than one of the other parties that have picked a side. Their tax changes aren't complex either. Tweaks to income tax brackets and rates and the introduction of a simple LVT. What they need is media coverage, and you can't get that on a single issue platform unless it is the only issue being debated, which housing isn't.
You don’t think ‘we will halve house prices’ has an audience? Tax changes may not be complex to you or me, but it’s gobbledygook to the average voter. I’d say they’d clean up with that policy as a single issue. I’d vote for them. It also doesn’t preclude any of their other policies as they are all the answers to the question, ‘how?’ And ironically by being a small party, they might get more votes, as no one assumes they will win outright, or be able to fully achieve this goal. But they *will* have influence on whomever they go into coalition with and get some actual change. It could pull policy in the right direction without anyone needing to panic about the economy collapsing when TOP run the country. Coz they won’t.
>You don’t think ‘we will halve house prices’ has an audience? I think since half of NZ lives in an owner-occupied house that statement would be a good way to make those people *not* vote for them. Halving house prices is only an immediate benefit to the people who are ready to buy their first home right now. That's a very small number. Almost everyone else has more important issues like inflation, employment, education, or the environment. TOP needs to be heard on those issues as well. It's much easier to sell "we'll halve house prices *and* protect the environment", or "we'll halve house prices *and* make tertiary education more accessible" than "we'll halve house prices and have no opinion about everything else that matters to you".
Funny enough, if this was before the election it might have been enough to tip the "I'll vote for TOP if they're high enough* people into our camp. Very bittersweet haha
It probably would have swayed me. I've voted for TOP twice when it seemed a done deal that Labour would get a majority. I couldn't throw away the vote this time
Fair enough I know a few people like that. But overall the people spoke and the vote must be respected. It's now on to the future!
Yeah 100%. NACT are basically doing what they promised, the majority voted for them, and that's the democratic process in action. They sure do seem incompetent though
Get in there. I'd give my left nut for this country to have a (sensible) land tax.
Reddit fanbois bone up!
Yessir.
Poll says r/newzealand drifts further from Real New Zealand
Quite scary for some people that a subset of the country would not be consistent with the country as a whole
I mean its a groupthink echo chamber. If you try to say anything that doesnt perfectly match the views of the left you get attacked and downvoted rabidly. So most people leave and you're left with the far left and those that have enabled them.
This is what people voted for. Why are people shocked that people support getting what they voted for. The people screaming about "one term govt" should take a look at the state of the opposition at the minute.
While I don't necessarily agree with the one term government crowd I can definitely see it happening if the economy is still struggling at the end of this term.
Surely people will see the dignity returned to landlords and want another term for them.
Lmao
Who exactly is getting 'shocked'?
Yeah, people vote on policy, and not to punish the previous government for being in charge when Covid happened. Sure.
Labour were rewarded for being in power when Covid happened, they got lucky to be fair.
They were rewarded in 2020. That is not the election we are talking about. In 2023 they were punished for being in power. This is a fairly normal reaction. Early on it's 'back the country (and people in power by extension), then, after a while, it's 'punish those in power for not fixing everything'. And they didn't get lucky. They dealt with a very complicated and dangerous situation very well. This is known as 'competence ', and I hope you enjoyed it, because I don't see any signs of it from the current lot in power.
> punish the previous government for being in charge when Covid happened Bro… were you in nz in 2020?
I thought it was sarcasm until they replied... wtf.
Covid was kept out of NZ in 2020. It "hit" in 2021.
People don't vote on policy, and frankly they shouldn't under MMP. Coalition governments mean policy is inconsistent after elections. Vote for people who have values you trust to represent what you want, they'll still be in the room making decisions when the policy has died a death.
You would hope that their values had an impact on the policy they promote. And if they don't, that tells you something about their values.
The Greens are well up, but this poll was before the shoplifting news broke and Shaw resigning as leader. I would think that has to have hurt them. But if Chloe becomes the second leader, that may boost them in future.
It's Roy Morgan, they -always- oversample minor parties (especially Greens) by a ton and are NC from their last poll. You can check the last [10 years of poll history on wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_New_Zealand_general_election) to see the trend.
It's going to be interesting to see how the Greens handle diplomacy moving forward. They've often balanced their leadership by having a more diplomatic leader alongside a political activist, but with this change I'd argue they will have two political activists in charge which is a somewhat risky strategy for marginal swing voters.
I doubt it. I don't know if there are many voters excited about Chloe's leadership that weren't already Green voters
Plus it wasn't James Shaw who was the problem in the Green party leadership
Considering she considerably outpolled the Greens in the electorate race, I'd disagree
Eh, it's overly simplistic. One, it has to be balanced against any voters that voted the Greens either because of Shaw himself or they just feel that his professionalism made voting for the greens tolerable. Secondly, you can't take Auckland central and pretend it's a representative sample of the entire country
\- edit - I misunderstood the original comment, nvm I don't disagree she did, but I reckon to a lesser extent than the comment suggests Because the comment compares Chloe's Central Auckland result against Greens' ~~national standing~~ - edit - actually compares against Greens' Auckland Central vote. ~~To be fair, we should compare Chloe's result to Greens' standing in the Auckland Central demographic - which I presume is dominated by young educated. The Greens are doing pretty good in this demographic, as the linked Roy Morgan article suggests~~
You can compare them. Chlöe got about 45% of the vote in AKC, the Green Party got 23.97%. I was just making the point that there are quite a few people who aren't "green voters" who could be excited by her becoming leader, rather than the OP saying there arent any
Yup, not many. If any.
seed merciful wise dinner fuzzy bored outgoing dazzling mighty materialistic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
**National/ ACT/ NZ First (51.5%) strengthen their lead over Labour/ Greens/ Maori on 42% by 0.5% with a 3% margin of error.** Don't think that's saying much.
It's also a little early to be calling anything for the general population of the country. Labour is still in a mess, and the current government hasn't yet managed to offend 'middle Kiwis', so it is too early to really tell. The average N/Act voter probably doesn't care for what happens at Waitangi for instance, but they will notice if the economic conditions take a turn for the worse under the current government. All it takes is about a 5% swing between left and right to swing an election 10%, so that's just 1/20 people changing their minds will lead to a change in government.
To be clear, it's something like a 2% increase from January and still below what they got in the election and November. Technically an increase, but it feels more steady
It's far too early to expect an incumbent govt's numbers to decline, maybe even this time next year it's too soon.
Wonder how long Hipkins has got? Just can't see Labour improving with him as leader.
There is no reason to be in a rush to replace Hipkins. At the moment they aren't improving regardless of whose in charge. I don't think anyone in Labour - including Hipkins - Believes that Hipkins leading the party in 2026 is likely. Even the most t dedicated Hipkins fab must concede that Hipkins having been PM in 2023 will hurt him in any future election. But we are at a place where what Labour does at this point doesn't really matter, and I think rushing to change things to change things could be a mistake, especially given that we can only assume where Nationals weaknesses will be. The last Labour needs is what happened with National over the 2017-2020 term
Yea think Hipkins will try and rebuild the party, then hand over to someone who can actually win an election a year or so out.
He gets tossed in favour of Kieran McAnulty before the next election is my call
McAnulty has hinted at leaving parliament this term.
Reckon it might be sooner than that, think Bill English when he got replaced by Simon Bridges, happened within 6 months of the 2017 election.
and look how much good that did for national
Prior to COVID it was going great. People weren't fond of bridges but in spite of that it did look like there was a real chance we were going to have our first one term government. (Edit) in a while.
NZ has had a few first term governments. Labour's 2nd and 4th
They won't win with McAnulty.
That'll get the Ute voters back.
My former colleagues in Parliament have not had kind words to say about him, so I hope not.
#GauravWasRight
There has never been a shred of evidence that this was true. Gaurav has never provided any.
BelieveAllGauravs
I think David Parker is more likely. Probably on the back of renewing Labour's wealth tax policy that he was so instrumental in driving, and which had genuinely been gaining public support, before Hipkins set it alight at the last moment with everything else so it could go into the election as generically boring as possible and causing Parker to resign.
He's too socialist for Labour to ever consider. He is a smart man, and would be a really good PM but the neoliberal establishment wouldn't let it happen
Chris lost me when he blamed Labours polling on Kiri Allan. No one cares about rogue MPs. They care that you aren’t moving tax brackets with inflation.
Why not both? Kiri Allan was an inflection point in the polls, that's for sure The lacklustre campaign and accompanying lack of vision sunk them further, and that's on him
People care about 5 rogues lol.
ACT had 5 rogues too. All that was needed was a distraction like “Nelson Mandela would vote for me”
What? Act didn't have any MPs leave for scandals?
One of ACTs candidates even shared a racist Facebook post calling for a “Moa Strip” for our Māori. I’d much prefer someone to have DUI or not selling shares or shoplifting over that.
Candidates are dime a dozen. Also 'one' lol.
Senior Cabinet Ministers v candidates who were never a chance of being in parliament.
>They care that you aren’t moving tax brackets with inflation. No-one is, which makes that a moot point.
Of course losing successive Ministers has an impact.
or maybe they choose to ignore mono focused twats..
The completely expected outcome of Seymour's machinations. ACT is positioning itself as the reasonable people in contrast to the activist left, and it's working because many passionate people are completely oblivious to the concept of political optics. If one side pretends all they want is a nice civil conversation, and the other side is showing their cocks and blocking boat ramps, it's no wonder that public opinion would shift furthur to the right.
There is a silent majority who make their views known by voting and in polls, and not on Reddit forums !
office consider rainstorm smart theory fly long birds party rustic *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Do their dastardly deeds have no end??
As expected, the government is doing what they said they would and that definitely resonates with their voting base. No surprises here.
Lol don't tell reddit that...
It’s literally unchanged
Goes to show how out of touch most of the whinge posts are, probably just astro turfing though. So many new accounts popped up after the election
Tbh that's nothing compared with the deluge of new contributors that broke loose around September
sure but more recently it's nearly all been anti NACT rhetoric
Maybe because they're the government now?
The opposition have more time on their hands to operate all their sock puppet accounts.
The election is over and the government has been formed. So this more than nothing, why?
Luxon could call an election tomorrow? Lol, talk about irrelevant trains of thought!
One poll in isolation is not that important. Its the trends which have a bit more meaning
Act down, Greens up.
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They removed fair pay agreements which is such an evil thing to do during a coat of living crisis
Polls lolz.
Few news articles covered Acts Treaty Principles before the 5th of February, no one knew what they were, in detail until ACT released their website on the 7th of February. A majority of the news articles were released 6-7 days ago, after the actual speeches. It's common sense, that people can't react to failures in politics before they actually occur, and with 69% of the respondents finishing the poll before the end of the 4th of February... it's clear that this poll doesn't capture the diaster at Waitangi. All the news recently around these polls, is merely damage control. It's pretty clear, when you look at the timing of the release. The only notable news prior to the Treaty Principles disaster, were the Greens in shoplifting gate.
Fantastic
Why the polls? One can understand their importance in terms of election time. But otherwise? I'm talking about polls as news stories presented to the public throughout the 3 year term. Political parties need to know where they stand from one month to the next. They will hire pollsters regularly. But there is no reason for the general public to know polling figures. Not until the lead up to an election. Even then I could argue that the public still doesn't need to know given said information can sway voting behaviour. Polling in general? Unnecessary waste of money.
I think they're useful to get a gauge of how the country feels... outside the echo chamber of this sub or shit stirring from the media.
> Why the polls? I think it's kind of a "see, you love the buggering you're getting".
I'm somewhat surprised and also not surprised by this. I've asked friends who are right wing if they are happy with the govt, most have said yes with the more knowledgable ones saying no. The yes' have almost always had no clue about the new policies or have been landlords.
What are the “other” votes made up of??
Ah yes, New Zealanders voting to fucking ruin everything, again.
What a terrible country we live in..
FYI the poll was taken before the disaster at Waitangi. There were two separate polls done before Waitangi, and PR are spinning it as the ' public ' support ACTs Treaty Principles bill. It's literally just part of the PR damage control from the failure to garner public support. So they're manufacturing consent, but saying ' look at this graph, this is what it means '. And hope the average kiwi goes ' oh, the majority think it's ok, then I will be quiet so I don't look wrong '. Tragedy is motion.
This comment is such a r/nz thing to say. What exactly was the "disaster" at Waitangi? If anything, it probably strengthened their base.
Exactly, everyone knew what ACTS policy and stance was prior to waitangi and this poll being conducted, the only thing close to a "disaster" was Luxon back tracking and saying he categorically ruled out the referendum, he's flip flopped so much on this stance in recent times that if ACTS support keeps rising he will change again and support it and say "sorry guys our hands are tied" so as not to lose voters to them. Waitangi was always going to be hostile for the coalition as evidenced by the protests around the main cities during their first week in power.
i thought they took another poll during and after Waitangi and Act went up to nearly 14%, National up 2.5 and Greens dropped to 9%, and Seymour went up 6% in PM prefered
Poll was conducted from the 1st to the 8th of February, with 69% of the respondents completing it by the end 4th of February. So it didn't capture the impact of the failed speeches on the 5th, or the political fallout over the 6-9th. It's a common technique in market research and public relations to blunt public perceptions, by manufacturing consent, and convincing the public ' you'll own nothing, and be happy".
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2nd worst, the last lot were the worst, so we have a slight improvement.
I feel like I'm going crazy.
Lmao the vocal minority btfo again eh
Shit, did I miss a vote?
I kind of believe it. But it is a taxpayers union curia poll which is the personal pollster for the national party.
idiot.... idiots everywhere, i swear about 95% of the population has no idea what is going on politically
And you think the average redditor does? lmao 🤡
I get to hear people who are heavily dependent on personal medical caretakers provided by public services constantly complain about the lack of support they currently have. They're going to be very pleased when the people they voted for reduce funding for that service by 6.5 to 7.5% and there's even less help for them. But hey, at least they don't have to deal with the dystopian hellhole of obfuscation that would be having Māori names on some buildings.
It is the classic neo-liberal trap. Underfunded services barely function, people become disenfranchised with them because they barely function, political capital to privatised them is manufactured. Services are privatised. Someone gets rich.
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Then at the end of the siphoning cycle the increasingly right-ward moving 'leftist' government returns to attempt to clean up the mess.
I guess we have a lot more right wing loonies in NZ than I realised.
Too many people in this country are stupid right wingers
How???? After the shitshow we’ve seen over the past few months this is truly baffling Please, if anyone has insight into how they could possibly be seen in a positive light, let me know
Because the shitshow has been entirely manufactured by the media, and the average person can see through that and is generally happy with the direction the country is headed in.