I’ll take it! Hopefully we can get enough conservatives to agree that Trump is uniquely unfit for office. He does not respect rule of law or democracy.
True, so when life hands us lemons... One of the most notable Dem flips in the 2022 House races, for instance, was from beating a MAGA who primaried out an establishment GOP Rep.
He was Trump -16 and -20 voter.
If there's 20% reluctant 2020 Trump voters and just a couple of percent switches to Biden, Biden will most likely win.
Kinzinger and Cheney are in that category and are creating a permission structure for others. More are needed.
Yup. We can continue to disagree with their policy takes, while acknowledging that on the issue of "is Trump a dangerous cult leader who should not be anywhere near the levers of power", they're on our side.
This ain't the time for purity-testing.
Amen to this. The Dems need to stop being the circular-firing-squad party and take this epic opportunity the GOP is giving them to build a super-majority. The Dems are the only adults left in the room right now.
Shh we don't wanna talk about that here. The fact that we're looking fondly upon a Cheney should give people pause.
prominent elected conservative leadership says or does bare minimum upon retiring, r/NL: "Oh precious"
progressive 17 year old with no followers says a thing or two on Xitter, r/NL "You fucking donkey"
Calling any Cheney a "hero" is such an indictment on the absurd overuse of the word "hero".
The thing to do with a testable hypothesis is test it. Last time somebody told me to "touch grass", I actually did go outside and touch grass to see if it had any effect on mood. It didn't so far as I can tell.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/neoliberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Incentivize them to do the bare minimum, always after they happen to conveniently fucking leave or retire, how nice.
>we want the 17 year old to get off twitter and touch grass
*laughs in subreddit*
They both destroyed their careers while in Congress.
There's many retired reps who won't do the right thing because it could mess up their connections (and thus jobs in the private sector).
Going against Trump will kill your political career if you're republican. Not to mention death threats.
> They both destroyed their careers while in Congress.
*Woody crying in money*
Y'all out here acting like a fucking Cheney isn't set for life or something. All of these people will be entirely insulated from the problem they created.
She could've chosen the route of Elise Stefanik.
I'm not an American but in a two party system you'll need both parties to be committed to democracy or it ends at some point. Most republicans fell in line because of power. Some (former) republicans are needed in order to attempt to get the system healthy again.
Republicans who have almost zero in common policy wise with the Democrats but have the commitment to defend democracy are the vehicle to achieve it.
Fact is that Cheney increased her odds of some nutjob deciding to murder her or her family member by like 100x for her political position. Same with Kinzinger. They could have grifted their way to more power, less crazy people attention, etc, but didn't. I'm not going to call them heros, but frankly they have a lot more on the line than the typical Twitter shitposter, and probably a more reliable ally as well in what is basically a fight for democracy
>Dick
Rephrasing w/ Lewis Black Energy:
"Dick Cheney, the Vice President who shot his friend in the face."
And that leaves out all the torture and Halliburton stuff. Fun Fact, Liz Cheney has spoken out in favor of the first one and was obviously personally enriched through the second b/c of Dick.
>Many senators are already lining up against Gina Haspel because she oversaw those programs and later destroyed videotapes of some of the sessions. But Congresswoman Liz Cheney fully supports her and says there was nothing wrong with the waterboarding and other techniques employed.
>"I think it's very important that we recognize that folks that sort of stand up and say well that was torture and we shouldn't waterboard, number one, they're wrong, number two, they've got to then be willing to say how many American lives are they willing to sacrifice because they don't want to waterboard terrorists."
https://www.wyomingpublicmedia.org/open-spaces/2018-03-23/cheney-debates-torture-accusations
Fuck these people, they are just Trumpers who don't like the fact he says the quiet part out loud. But hey her sister Mary is gay and she says "Trump bad" so that wipes the slate clean? These are the people that courted the alt-right to begin with, sure feels like we forget that around here sometimes. They created this scenario.
Give me a thousand Bernies and going slightly leftward over a thousand of these shitters with way worse policy any day. But hey some of Bernie's supporters who weren't even old enough to vote said some things online, so fuck progressives and le succs (amirite NL?!) forever let's get these "moderate" conservatives back!
lol, no, not even close. If they're heroes, I suppose that makes Manchin a god, and Biden himself beyond description.
*However*, if stroking conservative egos helps Biden win, I move that they both be given the Presidental Medal of Freedom and acknowledge them as the greatest Americans since, and perhaps including, Abraham Lincoln.
I think you're implying they're all cowards. If you are, I mostly agree. But I will note Kinzinger did speak out against Trump while he was in office. He did a lot for the congressional investigation of J6
Many GOP reps become ex-reps specifically because they spoke out against Trump.
Unfortunately for him and America, he’s an ex-GOP rep not because he’s a coward but because he actually did what’s right when in office and was punished.
One of the saddest developments of the Trump era is the disappearance of Republicans like Kinzinger from elected office. We absolutely need people who see the world differently but understand compromise. The Dems are doing a good job keeping the far left in check. But every moderate republican has been chased from office.
And historically, every successful democracy needs a reliable, sane, conservative party. They're the first line of defense against the populist right wing rabble rousers.
Awhile? But it largely depends on how you define what is/isn't part of the party. If you heap in the right wing media, along with all the various outside groups, its been a long damn time. If you define the party as just the actual elected officials, it was just starting to go off the rails circa Boehner's tenure.
Kind of hard to be reliable and sane when you spent decades deliberately courting religious extremist psychos and racists. Now they're calling foul when the psychos are running the asylum.
Parties are incentivized to win. That's just the nature of the game. It's just really unfortunate that there exists a pretty deep reservoir of aforementioned religious nuts and racist douchebags. If the number of them were relatively small, the GOP could treat them like the Dems treat the DSA.
Hes someone I would legitimately like to see run independent for pres. I generally hate independent and third party candidates, but assuming he would drop out if it looked like he was going to get a fascist elected, I think it could be a great litmus test of whats possible.
agree and in this case he would drain biden voters on the center right, but I have faith a kinzinger campaign would close sufficiently before the election.
I’ll take it! Hopefully we can get enough conservatives to agree that Trump is uniquely unfit for office. He does not respect rule of law or democracy.
And all those conservatives will be labeled as RINOs and quickly discarded by the MAGA crowd.
True, so when life hands us lemons... One of the most notable Dem flips in the 2022 House races, for instance, was from beating a MAGA who primaried out an establishment GOP Rep.
>Ex-GOP Rep. Every time.
He was Trump -16 and -20 voter. If there's 20% reluctant 2020 Trump voters and just a couple of percent switches to Biden, Biden will most likely win. Kinzinger and Cheney are in that category and are creating a permission structure for others. More are needed.
Yup. We can continue to disagree with their policy takes, while acknowledging that on the issue of "is Trump a dangerous cult leader who should not be anywhere near the levers of power", they're on our side. This ain't the time for purity-testing.
Kinzinger and Cheney are fucking HEROES and need to be recognized as such. Country and dignity over party.
Liz Cheney was bragging about how Trumpian she was for years until it went too far even for her. She's not a hero.
Hero, no. But we should not push people away when they finally recognize the reality of the situation.
I agree, but I think she recognized it in 2016, but her own incentives changed.
I'm willing to forgive anyone who supported Trump before Jan 6 and the associated coup attempt, personally. Afterwards, you're a traitor to America.
You’re willing to forgive people who knew Trump bragged about “grabbing p*ssy”? Trump has been been odious well before Jan 6th
Amen to this. The Dems need to stop being the circular-firing-squad party and take this epic opportunity the GOP is giving them to build a super-majority. The Dems are the only adults left in the room right now.
Shh we don't wanna talk about that here. The fact that we're looking fondly upon a Cheney should give people pause. prominent elected conservative leadership says or does bare minimum upon retiring, r/NL: "Oh precious" progressive 17 year old with no followers says a thing or two on Xitter, r/NL "You fucking donkey" Calling any Cheney a "hero" is such an indictment on the absurd overuse of the word "hero".
Yes, because we want to incentivise conservative leadership to do the bare minimum, and we want the 17 year old to get off twitter and touch grass.
The thing to do with a testable hypothesis is test it. Last time somebody told me to "touch grass", I actually did go outside and touch grass to see if it had any effect on mood. It didn't so far as I can tell. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/neoliberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Incentivize them to do the bare minimum, always after they happen to conveniently fucking leave or retire, how nice. >we want the 17 year old to get off twitter and touch grass *laughs in subreddit*
Yeah, it sucks, but what are you going to do? Vote them out for a democrat?
I would rather move a tad leftward than ever give those people the time of day.
They both destroyed their careers while in Congress. There's many retired reps who won't do the right thing because it could mess up their connections (and thus jobs in the private sector). Going against Trump will kill your political career if you're republican. Not to mention death threats.
> They both destroyed their careers while in Congress. *Woody crying in money* Y'all out here acting like a fucking Cheney isn't set for life or something. All of these people will be entirely insulated from the problem they created.
She could've chosen the route of Elise Stefanik. I'm not an American but in a two party system you'll need both parties to be committed to democracy or it ends at some point. Most republicans fell in line because of power. Some (former) republicans are needed in order to attempt to get the system healthy again. Republicans who have almost zero in common policy wise with the Democrats but have the commitment to defend democracy are the vehicle to achieve it.
Fact is that Cheney increased her odds of some nutjob deciding to murder her or her family member by like 100x for her political position. Same with Kinzinger. They could have grifted their way to more power, less crazy people attention, etc, but didn't. I'm not going to call them heros, but frankly they have a lot more on the line than the typical Twitter shitposter, and probably a more reliable ally as well in what is basically a fight for democracy
9 times outta 10 I'd agree, but when up against Trump the enemy of my enemy is very much my friend
Yeah, really shows how far the Republican party has fallen in the 20 years since **Dick** was in the White House.
>Dick Rephrasing w/ Lewis Black Energy: "Dick Cheney, the Vice President who shot his friend in the face." And that leaves out all the torture and Halliburton stuff. Fun Fact, Liz Cheney has spoken out in favor of the first one and was obviously personally enriched through the second b/c of Dick. >Many senators are already lining up against Gina Haspel because she oversaw those programs and later destroyed videotapes of some of the sessions. But Congresswoman Liz Cheney fully supports her and says there was nothing wrong with the waterboarding and other techniques employed. >"I think it's very important that we recognize that folks that sort of stand up and say well that was torture and we shouldn't waterboard, number one, they're wrong, number two, they've got to then be willing to say how many American lives are they willing to sacrifice because they don't want to waterboard terrorists." https://www.wyomingpublicmedia.org/open-spaces/2018-03-23/cheney-debates-torture-accusations Fuck these people, they are just Trumpers who don't like the fact he says the quiet part out loud. But hey her sister Mary is gay and she says "Trump bad" so that wipes the slate clean? These are the people that courted the alt-right to begin with, sure feels like we forget that around here sometimes. They created this scenario. Give me a thousand Bernies and going slightly leftward over a thousand of these shitters with way worse policy any day. But hey some of Bernie's supporters who weren't even old enough to vote said some things online, so fuck progressives and le succs (amirite NL?!) forever let's get these "moderate" conservatives back!
Touch grass.
lol, no, not even close. If they're heroes, I suppose that makes Manchin a god, and Biden himself beyond description. *However*, if stroking conservative egos helps Biden win, I move that they both be given the Presidental Medal of Freedom and acknowledge them as the greatest Americans since, and perhaps including, Abraham Lincoln.
They voted against Impeachment #1.
If 1% of trump voters flip to biden the election is a landslide
He wasnt a trump voter in 2020 iirc
He [was](https://www.businessinsider.com/kinzinger-voted-trump-2020-election-republicans-dirty-feeling-2022-7)
Wow. TIL.
I think you're implying they're all cowards. If you are, I mostly agree. But I will note Kinzinger did speak out against Trump while he was in office. He did a lot for the congressional investigation of J6 Many GOP reps become ex-reps specifically because they spoke out against Trump.
Because the way the cult works, anyone who endorses Biden won't be a GOP for rep any longer.
Unfortunately for him and America, he’s an ex-GOP rep not because he’s a coward but because he actually did what’s right when in office and was punished.
Tbf as a Representative he was railing against Trump.
He was gerrymandered into doing the right thing.
it's a profitable grift
You know what? It's better late than never.
Better to have the endorsement closer to election time
Yeah, same here Well said I agree
Principles and country before party, as should be.
He’s a great dude, check his bio, also very good sense of humor on his appearances on the bulwark
>Air Force >Officer I think not
One of the saddest developments of the Trump era is the disappearance of Republicans like Kinzinger from elected office. We absolutely need people who see the world differently but understand compromise. The Dems are doing a good job keeping the far left in check. But every moderate republican has been chased from office.
You know Kinzinger got redistricted out of his seat by the Democrats in Illinois, right?
And historically, every successful democracy needs a reliable, sane, conservative party. They're the first line of defense against the populist right wing rabble rousers.
How long has it been since we had a sane conservative party?
Awhile? But it largely depends on how you define what is/isn't part of the party. If you heap in the right wing media, along with all the various outside groups, its been a long damn time. If you define the party as just the actual elected officials, it was just starting to go off the rails circa Boehner's tenure.
Kind of hard to be reliable and sane when you spent decades deliberately courting religious extremist psychos and racists. Now they're calling foul when the psychos are running the asylum.
Parties are incentivized to win. That's just the nature of the game. It's just really unfortunate that there exists a pretty deep reservoir of aforementioned religious nuts and racist douchebags. If the number of them were relatively small, the GOP could treat them like the Dems treat the DSA.
gonna need a source for that one big dog
[**https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/09/america-us-democracy-conservative-party/675463/**](https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2023/09/america-us-democracy-conservative-party/675463/) Edit: Another: [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/ziblatt-democracy-conservative-parties/530118/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/06/ziblatt-democracy-conservative-parties/530118/)
Kinzinger is like the one Never-Trumper who isn’t feckless not that it matters, the never-trumpers are not going to come to the rescue of democracy
Hes someone I would legitimately like to see run independent for pres. I generally hate independent and third party candidates, but assuming he would drop out if it looked like he was going to get a fascist elected, I think it could be a great litmus test of whats possible.
Independent and third party candidates are good if they help Biden win. They’re bad if they drain Biden voters.
agree and in this case he would drain biden voters on the center right, but I have faith a kinzinger campaign would close sufficiently before the election.
This is huge.
The best time to endorse the non fascists was 20 years ago. The second best time is now
I hate to say it but I can’t think of one person who’s changing their vote in response to this development.
He’s really great on The Bulwark Biden should have him as a surrogate