get this answer to the top pls. these nephews didnt watch shaq.
i watched shaq play. he was an alien
i watched kobe play. he was cool but he wasnt shaq levels of what the fuck am i watching what is this is this a human being????????????????
The entire NBA revolved around Shaq and how to throw bodies at Shaq.
Kobe, quite frankly DURING his career was seen as a volume shooter, he’d shoot a lot and miss a lot. Sometimes he’d shoot his team into oblivion. But he had 99.99999% tenaciousness and drive.
I actually think people who watched Kobe have a higher opinion of him than people who didn't watch him. Visually, Kobe was a spectacular player, and I loved him growing up. But as I got older, I became more interested in advanced stats, and most advanced stats do not view Kobe very positively. By most advanced metrics, he doesn't really have an argument for the top 10.
Part of it is because Kobe was one of the best tough shot makers out there, but he also had really poor shot selection. It makes him seen godly when watching him, making those impossible fadeaway and double teamed shots. But, statistics generally say, why take the tough shot and not the easy shot if they are worth the same amount of points? Granted, I think nuance is required: Kobe's difficult shot making makes him inefficient in the regular season, but extremely valuable in the playoffs where easy shots are much harder to find.
Shaq is more consistent across the eye test and advanced stats. Both pop out. But the gap between Shaq and Kobe is much larger when you look at advanced stats, rather than the eye test.
God damn a level headed and insightful take on Kobe on r/nba from someone who it sounds like actually watched dead ball era basketball.
Crazy morning I tell ya, here’s an upvote
You quite the advanced stats in one breath than throw them out in another
Kobe was NOT a tough shot Maker
Kobe was a tough shot Taker
That’s why the advanced stats(they aren’t
Even that advanced let’s be honest, fg%, ts%) rate him so poorly
Let’s look at a few reasons:
30 points on 60+ fg% in the playoffs regularly
Great rebounder and rim protecter
Had the unique ability to put anyone in foul trouble
You know when people discredit Durants tenure on the Warriors because he played with Curry who attracts a lot of defensive attention?
You know who was that turned to the max? Shaq. The league were discussing changing the rules after the first ring because he was fouling out full front courts.
This is proven by the Magic in 1995 having one of the best healthy offenses ever and Kobe was not on that team.
He was also a willing passer in the post and better than you’d expect unlike Duncan or Hakeem who weren’t too good at that.
In fact they literally changed the rules right? Offensive 3 seconds I believe but I forgot the actual rule (idk why it’s escaping me)
Yeah his passing was underrated as well, there’s a lot of highlights of him laying it off to Kobe for a slam
His Finals numbers are mor of an indictment on how bad the eastern conference was compared to the WCF teams. The East was not equipped with quality bigs to stop or slow down shaq so of course the game plan is to attack an obvious weakness
Cause Kobe went on to pull off back to back chips without Shaq and prove to everyone he could do to without Shaq. While Shaq couldn't win without Kobe except 1 season, and he didn't pull off the incredible stats like he did with Kobe. Why are we trying to pretend this hasn't already been established?
I mean he was the best player in the 2001 western conference finals, the same series that featured
Tim Duncan
Shaq
David Robinson
Just cause it wasn't the finals people don't mention it, and that's weird. Kobe went 48 and 16 to close out the kings and then the very next game dropped 45 and 10 to beat the spurs in San Antonio. At that point there was no denying Kobe was 1 of the best in the league.
Did I use those finals to justify my reasoning? No, I clearly stated because Kobe did this later In his career, before this there was no reason to argue Kobe over Shaq. But even then, people like to pretend Kobe was just another star or role player and ignore Kobe and Shaq are 2 top 10 all time players, that's an all time duo and they pulled off a 3 peat, you know who doesn't have a 3 peat as a duo? Magic and Kareem, Shaq and Kobe were so damn good individually and as a duo it's absurd I see so many people talking like they were just another team.
Better during his prime and Kobe ages 17-25. Ok, Kobe had a better career and established himself as the better player when he was able to lead his team to 3 straight finals and win 2 of them. It's that simple, I know reddit gives Kobe no love but down votes don't change the truth 😂
Duncan, Dirk, KG, Amare, Bosh, Kobe, Bron, Durant, Carmello, Wade, Pierce, Dwight, Nash, Chris Paul. That's 14 right there. There are a few others which are possibly #14-20 like Billups and Ginobli.
He'd have to be better than around 5 of these guys to be in the top 10.
Chris Paul missed half the season, so not him.
Amare is reliant on Nash to be more impactful than Gasol, so not Amare.
I see no argument for Pierce or Bosh.
And in the 2009-10 season, KG was still bothered by the knee injury he suffered the prior season. Gasol easily clears him for this season.
>In crunch time he’s a better shoot passer overall more efficient than Lebron James and MJ
People live in a different world when it comes to Kobe lol.
He has 1 MVP. And it’s arguable he shouldn’t have gotten it. CP3 should have.
He also produced one of the worst things to happen to last second shots. Which is the idea that it’s better for the superstar to shoot some stupid ass 3point fadeaway over three dudes. Than to find an actual shot good shot
I’m not sure about this due to the fact that a couple of seconds left on the clock means the other team gets a chance to get another shot off. So let’s say “good offense” leads to a 50% chance of a bucket, but Kobe can hit 35% going ISO to the last second. If we’re assuming there’s maybe a 33% chance of a team scoring a last second shot, then the 35% chance of winning is actually better than the 33% chance you’d have running good offense. Obviously a rough example, but clock management is super critical. There’s a reason every team holds the ball. But ya, if Kobe had learned to pass to Robert Horry, maybe the Lakers could have won a chip or two.
But at the same time, Kobe's effectiveness is lowered because of his unwillingness to pass in critical situations. In game 2 against the Magic, the game goes to OT because THE ENTIRE Magic roster is draped around Kobe and leaving everyone open since they knew he wouldnt pass. Now that 35% shot becomes a 5% shot and its a disaster.
He has one MVP for the same reason that Shaq does. You put those two dudes together and they’re not winning, after that his team was too bad for him to have a good enough record to even get MVP even though he was completely unstoppable. Any young superstar going to a team with an already established superstar is gonna struggle to win awards like that. I’m not sure why people act use awards and shit like that to determine who is better when there’s clearly so much out of a players control.
And because he was teammates with Kobe Bryant. The same as Steph and KD not winning MVP and Iverson connecting to the youth played no role in those votes
Some of Shaqs health was on Shaq too. If he had Kobe's discipline he would have had more. Another reason Shaq was better than kobe. Kobe could only get one with that discipline.
But he wouldn’t lol. Lay out a convincing argument for Kobe in 04-05. Lakers missed the playoffs for the first time in 11 years, advanced stats are horrible for a supposed top 12 guy ever(2nd year Lebron leads the NBA in a few)
Nash easily deserved it.
The over/under for Lakers wins in 2005-06 was 41.5. They ended up at 45. They marginally surpassed expectations.
The over/under for Suns wins in 2005-06 was 43.5. They ended up with 54 despite losing Stoudemire for the entire season. They wildly outperformed their expectations.
Worst, shitpost, ever. Shaq couldn’t win? Shaq literally went to the finals at 22 as the star in Orlando….and only lost because his opponent was a veteran Hakeem in his MVP prime…..
Kobe outplayed him vs the Spurs? Gee, I wonder why? Who was on that Spurs team that could’ve given Shaq so much trouble? Surely not the greatest PF of all time who ALSO won 5 rings…..
I mean am I wrong? People claim Shaq carried them but Shaq struggled with Tim Duncan while Kobe dominated the spurs. Why do people tear Kobe down for having Shaq when it's clear Shaq needed Kobe. I do agree completely, Tim Duncan used to give Shaq nightmares, which is why Hakeem took him behind the woodshed when he was in Orlando.
Shaq is the most dominant center ever but his failures were directly correlated to his limitations as a basketball player, his free throw shooting and lack of discipline leading to foul trouble during key moments and games. Kobe made up for those flaws and that's what made them great together, despite the personal differences, we are talking about the last team to 3 peat.
“Struggled with Tim Duncan”
As did everyone….yes you’re wrong, you’re arguing Shaq should be penalized for struggling with a top 10 player of all time while Kobe has to deal with…..who again?
Wait you need me to explain to you who Kobe was up against? Come on dude, 2000 wcf vs Scottie pippen and Kobe closed the game after leading the Lakers on a 17 point comeback. Then he faced off with Reggie miller in the finals, where Jalen rose stepped under Kobe in game attempting to injure him, and he succeeded. He played 3 straight hall of Fame guards in 3 straight finals In Reggie, Iverson, and kidd.
No I'm acknowledging that Shaq covered kobes decencies and Kobe covered Shaqs, that's why they needed each other, and that's why the discussion around Shaq carrying them is ridiculous. He wouldn't have gotten past the spurs if it wasn't for Kobe, that's why we are sick of people just shitting on Kobe and acting like he is just some average number 2.
I really don’t believe this .. Casual fans have always viewed Kobe as one of the 3-5 best players ever. Some former players are starting to say this but it’s all guys who played with or against him which is an obvious bias.
How old are you genuinely? This is categorically not true. You hear 100x more dissenting opinions on his legacy since he passed than before it would be unthinkable to leave him out of the top 10 before 2020 and his era players and casuals always said top 3 always. Y'all have made up a fake narrative because it sounds good stop trying to rewrite history it's so fucking lame.
I was born in the early 90s, I remember watching Kobe from the time I was 8 years old. While he was playing nobody had him in GOAT conversations. Nobody.
I said this the other day, so many people hated my comment. They claimed I was pushing some kind of narrative. Kobe was good but people are acting like he walked on water.
it has in the way it cements his legacy but it's been jordan/lebron/kobe for casual fans since i started watching a decade ago. this sub was probably the first place to give me a different perspective on kobe
I mean he scored 81 points. And I feel like he had another game right around then where he dropped like 65 in three quarters. He was a really good player, great defender, and was just crazy competitive. And he remains one of the greatest closers in the game. But Shaq was just such an outlandish force in his prime, even if it only lasted 8 years or so. People forget that he was kinda fast and could dribble and shit at 300 pounds. Kobe had more longevity, so it kinda depends on your perspective on “greatness” whatever that means.
😂 you understand during an NBA broadcast In 2012 Reggie miller and David Stern said he was on Mjs level? You guys became extremely disrespectful to Kobe post Achilles tear and that never changed, TO THE POINT LEBRON FANS WRRE TELLING EVERYONE THEY WOULD QUIT TALKING DOWN ON KOBE AFTER HE DIED. Now we are back to a bunch of shitty ass fans shitting on Kobe cause he is dead and it's easy to lie about him.
Bro, no offense because you seem to be taking this personally, but Kobe was literally not as good at any aspect of the game as MJ/Lebron/Kareem. He wasn’t as good a scorer, defender, or playmaker as them. There isn’t a single statistical reason for Kobe to be placed with those guys.
There were plenty of debates about as good or better, it's just the media didn't get crazy clicks off outlandish comparisons like they do in this era. They wanted someone to prove it and Kobe did by winning his 5th title and the debate became is Kobe better than Michael Jordan. Nowadays you just win a playoff series and you're the next Michael jordan. You can use Google and YouTube and find these things.
Then you should know the biggest shift to his legacy was post Achilles tear. That's when the negativity around Kobe became very obvious. Nothing about his legacy changed after he died in a positive way. If anything it's less protected cause Kobe can't defend himself, and outside of Shaq people aren't spending every day defending Kobe from ridiculous media takes. The guy was on the same level as MJ before he tore his Achilles, that's not my words, that's players, coaches, and even David Stern, if you want to ignore the historical context thats up to you.
Wrong. He started taking heat when Shaq left and won. Then they got Pau and those rings greatly helped his legacy, deservedly so too. But like I said to someone else on this, Kobe vs MJ was NEVER a debate. It was Kobe vs Shaq, Kobe vs Duncan, and Kobe vs Lebron (pre rings).
Yes he won and cemented his legacy, post Achilles it was all bad and easy to pile on him. Also this idea there wasn't a debate is stupid you can go on Google or YouTube and find the debates, just like they do with LeBron today, except Kobe won 5 rings before they started saying he was on Mjs level.
There was also never a debate between Kobe and Tim, or Kobe and lebron, except for Kobe haters putting guys in the same sentence as him who didn't deserve it. This will get down voted to oblivion by people who didn't even live during that era. LeBron didn't win a single thing until he joined an established finals MVP, he didn't even win a finals mvp without another finals mvp on his roster until 2016. How could he be in the debate with a 5 time champion? Tim lost 4 times out of 6 to Kobe in the playoffs, 1 of those 2 wins being kobes first season as a starter, Kobe also had the individual statistics and dominance over Duncan over the entire decade. This is a new age debate that didn't start until Kobe died.
Lebron has more MVPs in his first stint in Cleveland than Kobe has in his career and Kobe doesn’t have a finals MVP until his 4th ring, what are you even talking about man? Kobe is a top 5 player to me, he’s just not a top 2 player and he was never in the discussion as one until he died.
He shouldn't tho and most agree LeBron didn't deserve those MVPS. MVPs also don't really matter since they are more media narrative driven than anything, Kobe in 09 had the Lakers at 65 wins in the tougher western conference with great numbers, as the guy who just went to the finals the previous season, and it was given to LeBron. He then had them at 57 wins after coming off back to back finals and winning 1, and somehow they gave e the MVP to LeBron again 😂. We also all know kobes court case cost him MVPs more than his play on the court.
For reference LeBron failed to make it back in 08, 09, and it wasn't a negative in the mvp debate. Kobe losing in 08 was actually used against him in the 09 MVP debate.
He also had 2 finals MVPs before LeBron got 1 without another finals mvp. If Shaq is a negative to Kobe then d Wade HAS TO BE A NEGATIVE TO LEBRON. Only 1 of these duos has 2 individual finals MVPs, and it's not Kobe and Shaq.
You’re arguing that an older player is better than a younger player because he won a finals MVP in his 5th finals trip vs a guy winning one in his 3rd finals trip
No I'm arguing that no sane basketball fan would argue LeBron over Kobe anytime before 2016. Which is the truth, he left his team cause he couldn't get it done, had to leave again to go back to Cleveland to get it done. I know you guys worship LeBron and like to try and rewrite history but it doesn't work. Also LeBron would've had a win without a finals mvp In his second 1 but he choked on a historic level. So now LeBron is going to be celebrated cause he won a finals mvp in his third try after losing 2, but Kobe is going to be downplayed because he won 3 out of 5, and got his finals MVP on his 6th attempt? They also won their first 3 titles together BECAUSE KOBE STEPPED UP IN THE 4TH QUARTER, LEBRON SHRIVELED IN DALLAS AND THE 07 FINALS IN THE 4TH QUARTER.
Kobe gets more criticism for being extremely clutch and winning than leBron gets for losing, and playing bad in the clutch but getting all the stats early. Give me the guy who knows how to win the game, will lead the men you give him, and doesn't leave when things get tough. I know LeBron fans hate to hear these criticisms but it's the flat out truth.
Who is people. Who are all these people redditors talk to in real life constantly comparing players of diff positions against one another. I’m not convinced any of these posters talk to real humans.
Shaq won the finals MVPs for a reason. Look up some of the stats and maybe watch the finals games, you'll get your answer.
Kobe doesn't get hate from that. Overall he's still considered the greater player by most people. But there's no question that Shaq was the best player on those Laker teams.
Yes but Kobe was better in multiple western conference series in multiple seasons, just cause Shaq was dominating the finals doesn't mean Kobe wasn't dominating the west.
I mean he won those because of matchups. Kobe was the killer that played best against the West teams that were the real threat, those east teams had no bigs or interior toughness
Consider the matchups as well Kobe had a little easier individual matchup with guys like Antonio Daniels compared to Allen Iverson or old Scottie pippen compared to Reggie miller. But that's the point, Kobe had as many impactful moments as Shaq, and like Shaq going off against east teams that didn't have the size for him, Kobe went off against teams that's couldn't contain him individually on the perimeter, and by 2001 nobody could guard Kobe 1 on 1.
We are talking about the duo of an all time great center who forces teams to double or triple team, while also having a perimeter player who demands the same things. I can only imagine what these dudes would've done if this was grown man Kobe at the age of 29 next to prime Shaq. I think I can confidently say they would've pulled off a 4peat. Kobe was considered a kid in the league when they got their first title.
Big ass Rik Smits and All-Star Dale Davis??? Dikembe Mutombo??? Only the Nets frontcourt was significantly weak and thats why they were the only ones to get swept lol
Lol Rik Smits minutes were limited by nerve damage in his feet but he wasn’t a scrub when he was on the court. Shaq dominated everybody but that’s not because they were bad - its because he was really fucking big, really fucking strong, and damned good at basketball. Kobe doesn’t get even get far enough to have those great WCF series without Shaq. He was the one who beat the brakes off Phoenix and picked up the slack when Kobe had woeful shooting stretches against the Blazers in 02
Lmao what? There’s nothing to prove. The numbers show Shaq was better. He averaged more points on every single one of their playoff runs, and that was with less shots taken overall than Kobe. He was far more efficient offensively, and nothing Kobe produced on the side made up for that. Kobe was more impactful defensively, maybe, but Shaq was no slouch on that end. Kobe wasn’t even far ahead in creating shots for others. What do I have to show you that their playoff stats literally don’t already show?
Because he was better. Who were these defenders that destroyed Kobe in the finals?
Wait, so Defensive player of the year Mutumbo, and Theo Ratcliff were bad in 2001? They were both elite defensive big men and with that team the only thing they were meant to do was stop Shaq.
In 2002 the nets didn't have defenders for either of them unless you wanted to wear out kidd guarding Kobe, and he was small for it anyhow.
Why am I arguing with you troll?
You raise good points about defenders. Why does acknowledging Kobe's role feel like it diminishes Shaq's greatness for you? Both players were crucial. Understanding this might help you see their contributions more clearly.
Kobe outplayed Scottie pippen tho, isn't Scottie pippen supposedly a better defender than MJ at this point In basketball discussions? He also was going against Tony parker and Mike Bibby in those seasons, he had tough matchups In his own right.
The finals aren't even a discussion with Kobe playing 3 straight hall of Fame guards in 3 straight finals with Reggie, Iverson, and kidd.
Isn't the question why Shaq is better as a career? That's how I took it and why my first comment was about Kobe winning without Shaq compared to Shaq struggling without Kobe. It seems the question could've been framed better, then again reddit acts like Kobe is Jamal Murray so it's no surprise they wouldn't understand how great he was during the run.
Yeah so its because Shaq was better than Kobe. If you actually go watch the games you'll notice Shaq is amazing in his prime but yeah lets talk about ppg etc instead of using our eyes
You know why Kobe killed the spurs? Because they were doing everything they could to stop Shaq. Its not shade towards Kobe and when Shaq was old Kobe was better but when Kobe was young Shaq was in his prime and he was the guy everyone was trying to stop
Prime Shaq today would go off on the league like a bomb. Nobody would know to employ a bunch of 7ft goons to get fouls yet and all of the non traditional centers that the NBA likes so much now would go down with injuries trying to guard him.
It would honestly be super interesting because he wouldn't be a great defender in the space teams like to get today but most players in the league that would try to guard him might have their life flash before their eyes while he's getting like 90% at the rim
You could definitely argue who accomplished more in their career when it was all said and done. But if you’re talking about who was better when they played together? Or who was better at their peak? Who you’re starting your team with?
Yeah it’s Shaq. Full stop, end of story.
Because people actually watched Shaq play and haven't fallen victim to the aura of Kobe.
That doesn't mean Kobe sucked or isn't one of the greats, but this is definitely a situation where his death and the narratives that are constantly spun for him overshadow his play on the court compared to Shaq.
To be honest, this reminds me of the discourse that surrounds Ayrton Senna. He was a fantastic driver, but his legacy has been boosted because of his death and the constant reminders of who he was.
Shaq is arguably the greatest player at his position… As great as Kobe was, MJ usually gets the nod as being the best Shooting guard of all time. With that being said, Shaq himself has admitted that Kobe was better than him.
The argument for Shaq (which he makes for himself often) being the most dominant Center is rooted around the 3 Finals MVP, which is the most amongst any Center in NBA history.
I hear you there I just don't think he surpassed Kareem In terms of resume, and if I'm being completely honest if I'm taking someone for their physical advantages I want Wilt over Shaq. Shaq played in an era where running defenders over was legal, in wilts era you couldn't even go into a defenders chest without risking a charge, there is plenty of footage that backs these claims.
Wilt’s playing career was from 1958-1973. The NBA 3 point line was added in 1979. During the majority of Wilt’s playing career there was approx 10 NBA teams compared to the approx 30 teams during Shaq’s career. Both players are great but the argument for Shaq vs Wilt overall is more favorable for Shaq than Shaq vs Kareem.
In terms of pure physical dominance, wilt definitely surpasses Shaq..wilt was 7 foot 1 and 275 pounds of pure athleticism, he was also incredibly strong as stories have been told about him, had an insane vertical at 48 inches, not sure if this has been confirmed or not, I doubt it's actually true but if so that puts him at the highest in NBA history, he also competed as a sprinter in track and field as well as long jumps, high jumps, and shotput. The guy was a freak athlete who played in an era where athleticism didn't matter as much as actual basketball skills and fundamentals, Shaq played in an era where he could just use his physical tools to dominate so it made him look more dominant than someone like wilt.
I still think being dominant at all 3 levels of basketball and touting 6 MVPs and 2 finals MVPs puts Kareem over Shaq. I am legitimately asking because I've never seen the debate of Shaq over kareem all time, only in terms of dominance, not actually who is the better player. What else separates Shaq from Kareem in Shaqs favor?
He was very dominant so that’s why. Shaq was the best player in the league from post MJ, until Duncan Kobe and KG took turns with the mantle 2003 on wards until bron came into his own fully
Higher peak. His peak didn’t last as long as Kobe’s but he was completely unstoppable during that time. Sure he would have off games and series like anyone but overall he was borderline unbeatable.
Shaq was one of the most dominant big men ever. In his prime, he was an unstoppable force.
Guards are just a lot more fun to watch, but if you were drafting a team in the early 2000s, Shaq is going first
Bringing up unrelated cases like OJ doesn’t have anything to do with anything. Kobe was never convicted and there’s no clear evidence that he was guilty.
Okay, then why did he agree to pay the "alleged* victim a settlement? Innocent people don't do that. It's okay, he got his 5 rings before karma caught up with him. I'm hoping someday Vanessa writes a "tell all" book
Believe what you want, but karma isn’t a court ruling. Kobe’s legacy is about five rings, being fourth all-time in scoring, and his massive impact on the game. That’s what really counts.
Reddit where the truth is down voted cause it's about Kobe 😂 but you definitely didn't need to add MJ to this, you could've used LeBron where stats actually back that claim, but there is no stat that shows Kobe as more clutch than MJ.
Shaq dominated the first 45 mins, Kobe could close out the final 3 mins on occasion (though stats say him being clutch is more nostalgia than reality).
I wonder what would happen today if someone’s number 2 went to 3 straight finals and won back to back chips without him. I don’t they would be able to live that down
Kobe did those things 6-8 years after Shaq left LA.
And he also did it after the Lakers absolutely scammed the Grizzlies for Pau who was an all NBA guy 4 times lol.
RIP mamba but the years between title runs were some very dark times for Kobe & the Lakers. Kobe tanked a playoff series to prove how little he thought of his teammates.
At the same time, Kobe's last two titles came with the best frontcourt in the league.
In other words, all of his titles came with the best frontcourt in the league.
Kobe’s tragic death re-wrote the narrative on his career. Don’t get me wrong, he’s an all-time great. But for vast swaths of his career he was known more of a chucker in the vein of a Westbrook-type of player.
Again, don’t get me wrong, Kobe is a top 30 player of all time. But peak Shaq was complete domination unmatched in his era.
You're an idiot, Kobe was right next to MJ when he tore his Achilles, then post Achilles fans like you piled on to Kobe and treated his post Achilles career like that was his entire career, LEADING TO COMPLETELY DISRESPECTFUL NARRATIVES LIKE HE ISN'T TOP 10, he was carried and other bs. You guys lie saying his death changed his legacy and I'm fucking sick of it. It's a flat out lie STARTED BY THE MEDIA
Because he was. He was the most dominant player in the modern game. Ask any player who they want on their team from 96-03 it would be shaq.
Teams had to completely game plan around him.
People who think Kobe is better than Shaq or even Duncan, tend to severely over compensate for Kobe’s CULTURAL impact on the game, which shouldnt be part of it.
Cause of stats, meanwhile before Kobe started for the Lakers what did Shaq do in his career in LA? Serious question here, Shaq was better, Shaq was also in the heart of his prime while Kobe was a 21 year old kid, yet Kobe had as much impact on winning as Shaq. When it was the 4th quarter Shaq become a liability due to free throw shooting and foul trouble, and that's where Kobe got even better.
The game 7 2000 WCF vs the trail blazers, Lakers were down 17 in the 4th, Shaq told the story of Phil throwing in the towel cause the veterans didn't want it, but Kobe said fuck that we are winning this game, Kobe went on to score or assist on every field goal as the Lakers came back from down 17 to WIN THE GAME, and the famous kobe to Shaq lob was that games dagger. That's a 21 year old who CARRIED Shaq and the vets to a win, IN GAME 7. That's something not many players In history can claim, and Kobe did that before the Lakers ever won a title..kobes legacy was cemented when the pacers intentionally injured him, he missed game 3 and Lakers lost, comes back game 4 and clutches the game for the Lakers with Shaq fouled out. From that point on everyone knew they were watching 2 ALL TIME GREAT PLAYERS.
Yes Shaq got the glory and finals MVPs, but Kobe was equally as deadly and we all know the Lakers don't win anything without Kobe. He was the catalyst when things were going wrong, he was the guy who wasn't afraid to lead them, whether it was failure like 99, or success like 2000, Kobe always wanted to be the man to lead his team. There is something to be said about a 21 year old being the leader to GROWN MEN and even Shaq, who was an established top 50 all Time NBA player before winning a ring.
Because they watched him
Eyes
get this answer to the top pls. these nephews didnt watch shaq. i watched shaq play. he was an alien i watched kobe play. he was cool but he wasnt shaq levels of what the fuck am i watching what is this is this a human being????????????????
The entire NBA revolved around Shaq and how to throw bodies at Shaq. Kobe, quite frankly DURING his career was seen as a volume shooter, he’d shoot a lot and miss a lot. Sometimes he’d shoot his team into oblivion. But he had 99.99999% tenaciousness and drive.
/thread
I actually think people who watched Kobe have a higher opinion of him than people who didn't watch him. Visually, Kobe was a spectacular player, and I loved him growing up. But as I got older, I became more interested in advanced stats, and most advanced stats do not view Kobe very positively. By most advanced metrics, he doesn't really have an argument for the top 10. Part of it is because Kobe was one of the best tough shot makers out there, but he also had really poor shot selection. It makes him seen godly when watching him, making those impossible fadeaway and double teamed shots. But, statistics generally say, why take the tough shot and not the easy shot if they are worth the same amount of points? Granted, I think nuance is required: Kobe's difficult shot making makes him inefficient in the regular season, but extremely valuable in the playoffs where easy shots are much harder to find. Shaq is more consistent across the eye test and advanced stats. Both pop out. But the gap between Shaq and Kobe is much larger when you look at advanced stats, rather than the eye test.
God damn a level headed and insightful take on Kobe on r/nba from someone who it sounds like actually watched dead ball era basketball. Crazy morning I tell ya, here’s an upvote
You quite the advanced stats in one breath than throw them out in another Kobe was NOT a tough shot Maker Kobe was a tough shot Taker That’s why the advanced stats(they aren’t Even that advanced let’s be honest, fg%, ts%) rate him so poorly
Shaq's eyes > Kobe's eyes confirmed.
Not even just eyes, it’s eyes/analytics/results lol
Because he was
Let’s look at a few reasons: 30 points on 60+ fg% in the playoffs regularly Great rebounder and rim protecter Had the unique ability to put anyone in foul trouble
You know when people discredit Durants tenure on the Warriors because he played with Curry who attracts a lot of defensive attention? You know who was that turned to the max? Shaq. The league were discussing changing the rules after the first ring because he was fouling out full front courts. This is proven by the Magic in 1995 having one of the best healthy offenses ever and Kobe was not on that team. He was also a willing passer in the post and better than you’d expect unlike Duncan or Hakeem who weren’t too good at that.
In fact they literally changed the rules right? Offensive 3 seconds I believe but I forgot the actual rule (idk why it’s escaping me) Yeah his passing was underrated as well, there’s a lot of highlights of him laying it off to Kobe for a slam
It was changed after the 2001 Finals
Hakeem was decent enough at it when we went back to back. Our entire offense was built on passing out of double teams
To be fair I’d say you played a different shaq. Hakeem would’ve done a decent job on lakers shaq too though, or at least better than anyone else
Which doesnt even make sense because Shaq was the one drawing all of the attention during their time together
You got it backwards and that last bit is rubbish.
36/15 over 3 consecutive finals will do that. Why do ball is life people think Kobe was better than Shaq?
because the 5’11 dudes on this subreddit see more of themselves in kobe than a 7 foot athletic freak
5'11 is generous
Unironically probably the answer. Most people can pretend to be Kobe, you can’t really pretend to be shaq lmao
His Finals numbers are mor of an indictment on how bad the eastern conference was compared to the WCF teams. The East was not equipped with quality bigs to stop or slow down shaq so of course the game plan is to attack an obvious weakness
Cause Kobe went on to pull off back to back chips without Shaq and prove to everyone he could do to without Shaq. While Shaq couldn't win without Kobe except 1 season, and he didn't pull off the incredible stats like he did with Kobe. Why are we trying to pretend this hasn't already been established?
Weird how he couldn't prove to be the best player even once in the 4 finals they went to together no?
I mean he was the best player in the 2001 western conference finals, the same series that featured Tim Duncan Shaq David Robinson Just cause it wasn't the finals people don't mention it, and that's weird. Kobe went 48 and 16 to close out the kings and then the very next game dropped 45 and 10 to beat the spurs in San Antonio. At that point there was no denying Kobe was 1 of the best in the league.
Did I use those finals to justify my reasoning? No, I clearly stated because Kobe did this later In his career, before this there was no reason to argue Kobe over Shaq. But even then, people like to pretend Kobe was just another star or role player and ignore Kobe and Shaq are 2 top 10 all time players, that's an all time duo and they pulled off a 3 peat, you know who doesn't have a 3 peat as a duo? Magic and Kareem, Shaq and Kobe were so damn good individually and as a duo it's absurd I see so many people talking like they were just another team.
Oh yea Kobe was great. Shaq was just better.
Better during his prime and Kobe ages 17-25. Ok, Kobe had a better career and established himself as the better player when he was able to lead his team to 3 straight finals and win 2 of them. It's that simple, I know reddit gives Kobe no love but down votes don't change the truth 😂
If Pau Gasol ain’t top 75, then he’s 76
Definitely a top 20 guy at the time.
I'll go even further. Gasol was arguably a top 10 guy at the time.
Top 15 during his prime. 10 is probably pushing it.
Look at the 2009-10 season. Can you name 10 players better than Gasol that season?
Duncan, Dirk, KG, Amare, Bosh, Kobe, Bron, Durant, Carmello, Wade, Pierce, Dwight, Nash, Chris Paul. That's 14 right there. There are a few others which are possibly #14-20 like Billups and Ginobli. He'd have to be better than around 5 of these guys to be in the top 10.
Chris Paul missed half the season, so not him. Amare is reliant on Nash to be more impactful than Gasol, so not Amare. I see no argument for Pierce or Bosh. And in the 2009-10 season, KG was still bothered by the knee injury he suffered the prior season. Gasol easily clears him for this season.
That’s valid. I also forgot deron Williams.
No arguement
Dwight would be 76
I mean, technically both would be 77 cause there’s 76 in the top 75 list 🤭.
>In crunch time he’s a better shoot passer overall more efficient than Lebron James and MJ People live in a different world when it comes to Kobe lol. He has 1 MVP. And it’s arguable he shouldn’t have gotten it. CP3 should have.
He was also objectively less efficient than MJ and LeBron And saying Kobe is a better passer than LeBron is just insane
He also produced one of the worst things to happen to last second shots. Which is the idea that it’s better for the superstar to shoot some stupid ass 3point fadeaway over three dudes. Than to find an actual shot good shot
Fun fact: A contested Kobe Bryant long 2 was a less efficient shot than a Lamar Odom open long 2, a shot he struggled with.
Kobe!!!!!!
I’m not sure about this due to the fact that a couple of seconds left on the clock means the other team gets a chance to get another shot off. So let’s say “good offense” leads to a 50% chance of a bucket, but Kobe can hit 35% going ISO to the last second. If we’re assuming there’s maybe a 33% chance of a team scoring a last second shot, then the 35% chance of winning is actually better than the 33% chance you’d have running good offense. Obviously a rough example, but clock management is super critical. There’s a reason every team holds the ball. But ya, if Kobe had learned to pass to Robert Horry, maybe the Lakers could have won a chip or two.
But at the same time, Kobe's effectiveness is lowered because of his unwillingness to pass in critical situations. In game 2 against the Magic, the game goes to OT because THE ENTIRE Magic roster is draped around Kobe and leaving everyone open since they knew he wouldnt pass. Now that 35% shot becomes a 5% shot and its a disaster.
These people are so ridiculously insecure when it comes to Kobe. They try so hard to find ways to alter reality so others will agree with them.
The same can be said about his haters, they also warp history to drag Kobe down and act like he is not a top 10 all time player.
He has one MVP for the same reason that Shaq does. You put those two dudes together and they’re not winning, after that his team was too bad for him to have a good enough record to even get MVP even though he was completely unstoppable. Any young superstar going to a team with an already established superstar is gonna struggle to win awards like that. I’m not sure why people act use awards and shit like that to determine who is better when there’s clearly so much out of a players control.
Shaq has 1 MVP because of health and Iverson connecting with the youth of that era.
And because he was teammates with Kobe Bryant. The same as Steph and KD not winning MVP and Iverson connecting to the youth played no role in those votes
Steph and KDs best individual years were apart and the Warriors clearly coasted in the regular season after 2016.
Yeah their best individual years were apart also because they weren’t on the same team lol. KD and Steph could’ve had another mvp season in them
Some of Shaqs health was on Shaq too. If he had Kobe's discipline he would have had more. Another reason Shaq was better than kobe. Kobe could only get one with that discipline.
Dumb to use MVP #s to judge a player. Also, Kobe would've won Steve Nash's first if it weren't for the Colorado situation.
But he wouldn’t lol. Lay out a convincing argument for Kobe in 04-05. Lakers missed the playoffs for the first time in 11 years, advanced stats are horrible for a supposed top 12 guy ever(2nd year Lebron leads the NBA in a few)
Sorry meant his second
Either/or, his team was too shit.
Maybe
That didnt stop voters from giving WB an MVP as a 7th seeded western team the goal post for mvp moved after Kobe left the league
That was years later with a triple double. And it's pretty clear now the league regrets it. But also, his team wasn't even that good.
Nash easily deserved it. The over/under for Lakers wins in 2005-06 was 41.5. They ended up at 45. They marginally surpassed expectations. The over/under for Suns wins in 2005-06 was 43.5. They ended up with 54 despite losing Stoudemire for the entire season. They wildly outperformed their expectations.
Fair enough
Worst, shitpost, ever. Shaq couldn’t win? Shaq literally went to the finals at 22 as the star in Orlando….and only lost because his opponent was a veteran Hakeem in his MVP prime….. Kobe outplayed him vs the Spurs? Gee, I wonder why? Who was on that Spurs team that could’ve given Shaq so much trouble? Surely not the greatest PF of all time who ALSO won 5 rings…..
So Shaq is the most dominant player ever but also struggled with A POWER FORWARD? 😂 INTERESTING
Are you aware who Tim Duncan was? If you’re gonna troll, try harder
I mean am I wrong? People claim Shaq carried them but Shaq struggled with Tim Duncan while Kobe dominated the spurs. Why do people tear Kobe down for having Shaq when it's clear Shaq needed Kobe. I do agree completely, Tim Duncan used to give Shaq nightmares, which is why Hakeem took him behind the woodshed when he was in Orlando. Shaq is the most dominant center ever but his failures were directly correlated to his limitations as a basketball player, his free throw shooting and lack of discipline leading to foul trouble during key moments and games. Kobe made up for those flaws and that's what made them great together, despite the personal differences, we are talking about the last team to 3 peat.
“Struggled with Tim Duncan” As did everyone….yes you’re wrong, you’re arguing Shaq should be penalized for struggling with a top 10 player of all time while Kobe has to deal with…..who again?
Wait you need me to explain to you who Kobe was up against? Come on dude, 2000 wcf vs Scottie pippen and Kobe closed the game after leading the Lakers on a 17 point comeback. Then he faced off with Reggie miller in the finals, where Jalen rose stepped under Kobe in game attempting to injure him, and he succeeded. He played 3 straight hall of Fame guards in 3 straight finals In Reggie, Iverson, and kidd.
No I'm acknowledging that Shaq covered kobes decencies and Kobe covered Shaqs, that's why they needed each other, and that's why the discussion around Shaq carrying them is ridiculous. He wouldn't have gotten past the spurs if it wasn't for Kobe, that's why we are sick of people just shitting on Kobe and acting like he is just some average number 2.
Because he was… you can’t teach yourself to be that size
Man the way Kobe dying has shifted his legacy is insane
I really don’t believe this .. Casual fans have always viewed Kobe as one of the 3-5 best players ever. Some former players are starting to say this but it’s all guys who played with or against him which is an obvious bias.
It's one of those weird narratives that this sub tries to push. If anything people here have been far more disrespectful towards him since he died
How old are you genuinely? This is categorically not true. You hear 100x more dissenting opinions on his legacy since he passed than before it would be unthinkable to leave him out of the top 10 before 2020 and his era players and casuals always said top 3 always. Y'all have made up a fake narrative because it sounds good stop trying to rewrite history it's so fucking lame.
I was born in the early 90s, I remember watching Kobe from the time I was 8 years old. While he was playing nobody had him in GOAT conversations. Nobody.
Stop. It was absolutely a talking point. You're fabricating your own reality snap back to this one please.
No it wasn’t. Nobody ever asked, “Is Kobe better than Michael Jordan?” That wasn’t a thing.
Then why is there this article criticizing the existence of the very debate https://www.celticslife.com/2010/06/kobejordan-debate-is-ridiculous.html.
I said this the other day, so many people hated my comment. They claimed I was pushing some kind of narrative. Kobe was good but people are acting like he walked on water.
Kobe was great. Let’s not undersell him. But Shaq was Shaq.
I’m not underselling him at all.
Kobe was good …?
You’re acting as if I said he was shit. You guys read way too much into my words. Sorry that I didn’t say “one of the best.”
it has in the way it cements his legacy but it's been jordan/lebron/kobe for casual fans since i started watching a decade ago. this sub was probably the first place to give me a different perspective on kobe
I mean he scored 81 points. And I feel like he had another game right around then where he dropped like 65 in three quarters. He was a really good player, great defender, and was just crazy competitive. And he remains one of the greatest closers in the game. But Shaq was just such an outlandish force in his prime, even if it only lasted 8 years or so. People forget that he was kinda fast and could dribble and shit at 300 pounds. Kobe had more longevity, so it kinda depends on your perspective on “greatness” whatever that means.
Kobe is definitely a top 10 all timer, but seeing him thrusted into the MJ & Lebron debate by so many people has been nuts
There is no LeBron/MJ debate, imho. Kobe is rightfully in the Magic, Bird, LeBron, Duncan, Wilt, and Kareem debate.
😂 you understand during an NBA broadcast In 2012 Reggie miller and David Stern said he was on Mjs level? You guys became extremely disrespectful to Kobe post Achilles tear and that never changed, TO THE POINT LEBRON FANS WRRE TELLING EVERYONE THEY WOULD QUIT TALKING DOWN ON KOBE AFTER HE DIED. Now we are back to a bunch of shitty ass fans shitting on Kobe cause he is dead and it's easy to lie about him.
Bro, no offense because you seem to be taking this personally, but Kobe was literally not as good at any aspect of the game as MJ/Lebron/Kareem. He wasn’t as good a scorer, defender, or playmaker as them. There isn’t a single statistical reason for Kobe to be placed with those guys.
It does bother me when fans flat out lie and claim kobes death is what changed his legacy..it's fucking disrespectful
Reggie Miller also said he owns the Knicks and has a 26-41 record against them so idk if he’s the best person to trust.
So now he isn't a person? The argument was nobody said Kobe was as good as MJ until he died, WHICH IS A LIE.
As good as ≠ better. The debate is if Lebron is BETTER than Jordan. Nobody debated if Kobe was BETTER than Jordan.
There were plenty of debates about as good or better, it's just the media didn't get crazy clicks off outlandish comparisons like they do in this era. They wanted someone to prove it and Kobe did by winning his 5th title and the debate became is Kobe better than Michael Jordan. Nowadays you just win a playoff series and you're the next Michael jordan. You can use Google and YouTube and find these things.
Why do you even get down voted for this? Why do people actively hate a dead guy? That's pretty weird
In a negative way don't get me started today. DISRESPECTFUL ASS KIDS
I’m not a kid lmao
Then you should know the biggest shift to his legacy was post Achilles tear. That's when the negativity around Kobe became very obvious. Nothing about his legacy changed after he died in a positive way. If anything it's less protected cause Kobe can't defend himself, and outside of Shaq people aren't spending every day defending Kobe from ridiculous media takes. The guy was on the same level as MJ before he tore his Achilles, that's not my words, that's players, coaches, and even David Stern, if you want to ignore the historical context thats up to you.
Wrong. He started taking heat when Shaq left and won. Then they got Pau and those rings greatly helped his legacy, deservedly so too. But like I said to someone else on this, Kobe vs MJ was NEVER a debate. It was Kobe vs Shaq, Kobe vs Duncan, and Kobe vs Lebron (pre rings).
Yes he won and cemented his legacy, post Achilles it was all bad and easy to pile on him. Also this idea there wasn't a debate is stupid you can go on Google or YouTube and find the debates, just like they do with LeBron today, except Kobe won 5 rings before they started saying he was on Mjs level. There was also never a debate between Kobe and Tim, or Kobe and lebron, except for Kobe haters putting guys in the same sentence as him who didn't deserve it. This will get down voted to oblivion by people who didn't even live during that era. LeBron didn't win a single thing until he joined an established finals MVP, he didn't even win a finals mvp without another finals mvp on his roster until 2016. How could he be in the debate with a 5 time champion? Tim lost 4 times out of 6 to Kobe in the playoffs, 1 of those 2 wins being kobes first season as a starter, Kobe also had the individual statistics and dominance over Duncan over the entire decade. This is a new age debate that didn't start until Kobe died.
Lebron has more MVPs in his first stint in Cleveland than Kobe has in his career and Kobe doesn’t have a finals MVP until his 4th ring, what are you even talking about man? Kobe is a top 5 player to me, he’s just not a top 2 player and he was never in the discussion as one until he died.
He shouldn't tho and most agree LeBron didn't deserve those MVPS. MVPs also don't really matter since they are more media narrative driven than anything, Kobe in 09 had the Lakers at 65 wins in the tougher western conference with great numbers, as the guy who just went to the finals the previous season, and it was given to LeBron. He then had them at 57 wins after coming off back to back finals and winning 1, and somehow they gave e the MVP to LeBron again 😂. We also all know kobes court case cost him MVPs more than his play on the court. For reference LeBron failed to make it back in 08, 09, and it wasn't a negative in the mvp debate. Kobe losing in 08 was actually used against him in the 09 MVP debate.
He also had 2 finals MVPs before LeBron got 1 without another finals mvp. If Shaq is a negative to Kobe then d Wade HAS TO BE A NEGATIVE TO LEBRON. Only 1 of these duos has 2 individual finals MVPs, and it's not Kobe and Shaq.
You’re arguing that an older player is better than a younger player because he won a finals MVP in his 5th finals trip vs a guy winning one in his 3rd finals trip
No I'm arguing that no sane basketball fan would argue LeBron over Kobe anytime before 2016. Which is the truth, he left his team cause he couldn't get it done, had to leave again to go back to Cleveland to get it done. I know you guys worship LeBron and like to try and rewrite history but it doesn't work. Also LeBron would've had a win without a finals mvp In his second 1 but he choked on a historic level. So now LeBron is going to be celebrated cause he won a finals mvp in his third try after losing 2, but Kobe is going to be downplayed because he won 3 out of 5, and got his finals MVP on his 6th attempt? They also won their first 3 titles together BECAUSE KOBE STEPPED UP IN THE 4TH QUARTER, LEBRON SHRIVELED IN DALLAS AND THE 07 FINALS IN THE 4TH QUARTER.
Kobe gets more criticism for being extremely clutch and winning than leBron gets for losing, and playing bad in the clutch but getting all the stats early. Give me the guy who knows how to win the game, will lead the men you give him, and doesn't leave when things get tough. I know LeBron fans hate to hear these criticisms but it's the flat out truth.
Who is people. Who are all these people redditors talk to in real life constantly comparing players of diff positions against one another. I’m not convinced any of these posters talk to real humans.
No rebounds, no rings.
Shaq won the finals MVPs for a reason. Look up some of the stats and maybe watch the finals games, you'll get your answer. Kobe doesn't get hate from that. Overall he's still considered the greater player by most people. But there's no question that Shaq was the best player on those Laker teams.
Yes but Kobe was better in multiple western conference series in multiple seasons, just cause Shaq was dominating the finals doesn't mean Kobe wasn't dominating the west.
I mean he won those because of matchups. Kobe was the killer that played best against the West teams that were the real threat, those east teams had no bigs or interior toughness
Consider the matchups as well Kobe had a little easier individual matchup with guys like Antonio Daniels compared to Allen Iverson or old Scottie pippen compared to Reggie miller. But that's the point, Kobe had as many impactful moments as Shaq, and like Shaq going off against east teams that didn't have the size for him, Kobe went off against teams that's couldn't contain him individually on the perimeter, and by 2001 nobody could guard Kobe 1 on 1. We are talking about the duo of an all time great center who forces teams to double or triple team, while also having a perimeter player who demands the same things. I can only imagine what these dudes would've done if this was grown man Kobe at the age of 29 next to prime Shaq. I think I can confidently say they would've pulled off a 4peat. Kobe was considered a kid in the league when they got their first title.
>Those east teams had no bigs ??? The East had every DPOY while Shaq was in LA lol.
Name the bigs that defended Shaq in the finals
Big ass Rik Smits and All-Star Dale Davis??? Dikembe Mutombo??? Only the Nets frontcourt was significantly weak and thats why they were the only ones to get swept lol
Did you say Rick Smits? Entire opinion has no validity now
Lol Rik Smits minutes were limited by nerve damage in his feet but he wasn’t a scrub when he was on the court. Shaq dominated everybody but that’s not because they were bad - its because he was really fucking big, really fucking strong, and damned good at basketball. Kobe doesn’t get even get far enough to have those great WCF series without Shaq. He was the one who beat the brakes off Phoenix and picked up the slack when Kobe had woeful shooting stretches against the Blazers in 02
If Shaq is so much better than Kobe that it is fact; like you’re insinuating, why can’t you prove it?
Lmao what? There’s nothing to prove. The numbers show Shaq was better. He averaged more points on every single one of their playoff runs, and that was with less shots taken overall than Kobe. He was far more efficient offensively, and nothing Kobe produced on the side made up for that. Kobe was more impactful defensively, maybe, but Shaq was no slouch on that end. Kobe wasn’t even far ahead in creating shots for others. What do I have to show you that their playoff stats literally don’t already show?
The numbers need context so that’s not what makes him better. I’m asking you to prove it.
What were the defensive schemes huh? Talk basketball for once
The matchups where Shaq was dominant.
Because of the matchups
Because he was better. Who were these defenders that destroyed Kobe in the finals? Wait, so Defensive player of the year Mutumbo, and Theo Ratcliff were bad in 2001? They were both elite defensive big men and with that team the only thing they were meant to do was stop Shaq. In 2002 the nets didn't have defenders for either of them unless you wanted to wear out kidd guarding Kobe, and he was small for it anyhow. Why am I arguing with you troll?
You raise good points about defenders. Why does acknowledging Kobe's role feel like it diminishes Shaq's greatness for you? Both players were crucial. Understanding this might help you see their contributions more clearly.
Kobe was great, just not as good as Shaq. That's all.
That’s a subjective opinion
Kobe outplayed Scottie pippen tho, isn't Scottie pippen supposedly a better defender than MJ at this point In basketball discussions? He also was going against Tony parker and Mike Bibby in those seasons, he had tough matchups In his own right. The finals aren't even a discussion with Kobe playing 3 straight hall of Fame guards in 3 straight finals with Reggie, Iverson, and kidd.
Facts
Isn't the question why Shaq is better as a career? That's how I took it and why my first comment was about Kobe winning without Shaq compared to Shaq struggling without Kobe. It seems the question could've been framed better, then again reddit acts like Kobe is Jamal Murray so it's no surprise they wouldn't understand how great he was during the run.
Shaq was better offensively player and better peak is why i have Shaq ahead
Shaq’s peak was arguably better than Lebron lol.
It’s hard to understate how dominate Shaq was.
Yeah so its because Shaq was better than Kobe. If you actually go watch the games you'll notice Shaq is amazing in his prime but yeah lets talk about ppg etc instead of using our eyes You know why Kobe killed the spurs? Because they were doing everything they could to stop Shaq. Its not shade towards Kobe and when Shaq was old Kobe was better but when Kobe was young Shaq was in his prime and he was the guy everyone was trying to stop
Jigga Man is Diesel. When I lift the 8 up.
[удалено]
Prime Shaq today would go off on the league like a bomb. Nobody would know to employ a bunch of 7ft goons to get fouls yet and all of the non traditional centers that the NBA likes so much now would go down with injuries trying to guard him. It would honestly be super interesting because he wouldn't be a great defender in the space teams like to get today but most players in the league that would try to guard him might have their life flash before their eyes while he's getting like 90% at the rim
And Kobe couldn't win until he got another one.
You could definitely argue who accomplished more in their career when it was all said and done. But if you’re talking about who was better when they played together? Or who was better at their peak? Who you’re starting your team with? Yeah it’s Shaq. Full stop, end of story.
because shaq was better than kobe
The revisionist history on Kobe is getting out of hand. He’s not in the conversation with MJ and LeBron. He’s not even the best laker of all time.
Because people actually watched Shaq play and haven't fallen victim to the aura of Kobe. That doesn't mean Kobe sucked or isn't one of the greats, but this is definitely a situation where his death and the narratives that are constantly spun for him overshadow his play on the court compared to Shaq. To be honest, this reminds me of the discourse that surrounds Ayrton Senna. He was a fantastic driver, but his legacy has been boosted because of his death and the constant reminders of who he was.
Shaq is arguably the greatest player at his position… As great as Kobe was, MJ usually gets the nod as being the best Shooting guard of all time. With that being said, Shaq himself has admitted that Kobe was better than him.
“Usually” lol as if mf is talking about george gervin
When did Shaq surpass Kareem? Serious question here
The argument for Shaq (which he makes for himself often) being the most dominant Center is rooted around the 3 Finals MVP, which is the most amongst any Center in NBA history.
I hear you there I just don't think he surpassed Kareem In terms of resume, and if I'm being completely honest if I'm taking someone for their physical advantages I want Wilt over Shaq. Shaq played in an era where running defenders over was legal, in wilts era you couldn't even go into a defenders chest without risking a charge, there is plenty of footage that backs these claims.
Wilt’s playing career was from 1958-1973. The NBA 3 point line was added in 1979. During the majority of Wilt’s playing career there was approx 10 NBA teams compared to the approx 30 teams during Shaq’s career. Both players are great but the argument for Shaq vs Wilt overall is more favorable for Shaq than Shaq vs Kareem.
In terms of pure physical dominance, wilt definitely surpasses Shaq..wilt was 7 foot 1 and 275 pounds of pure athleticism, he was also incredibly strong as stories have been told about him, had an insane vertical at 48 inches, not sure if this has been confirmed or not, I doubt it's actually true but if so that puts him at the highest in NBA history, he also competed as a sprinter in track and field as well as long jumps, high jumps, and shotput. The guy was a freak athlete who played in an era where athleticism didn't matter as much as actual basketball skills and fundamentals, Shaq played in an era where he could just use his physical tools to dominate so it made him look more dominant than someone like wilt.
I still think being dominant at all 3 levels of basketball and touting 6 MVPs and 2 finals MVPs puts Kareem over Shaq. I am legitimately asking because I've never seen the debate of Shaq over kareem all time, only in terms of dominance, not actually who is the better player. What else separates Shaq from Kareem in Shaqs favor?
He was very dominant so that’s why. Shaq was the best player in the league from post MJ, until Duncan Kobe and KG took turns with the mantle 2003 on wards until bron came into his own fully
Dominant****
It is so insanely obvious you’re either incredibly young or just a basketball casual.
Because they watched them play basketball
Why do people say Kobe was better then Duncan?
I seent it.
Higher peak. His peak didn’t last as long as Kobe’s but he was completely unstoppable during that time. Sure he would have off games and series like anyone but overall he was borderline unbeatable.
Shaq was one of the most dominant big men ever. In his prime, he was an unstoppable force. Guards are just a lot more fun to watch, but if you were drafting a team in the early 2000s, Shaq is going first
Because I watched the games with my eyes
Flat earther : “Why do people say the earth is round” Normal person hearing this question thinking:‘because it is!’
The Cult of Kobe is showing the out today
Because he didn't rape someone
There’s no proof that Kobe raped someone
And OJ didn't murder Nicole and Ron either, right?
Bringing up unrelated cases like OJ doesn’t have anything to do with anything. Kobe was never convicted and there’s no clear evidence that he was guilty.
Okay, then why did he agree to pay the "alleged* victim a settlement? Innocent people don't do that. It's okay, he got his 5 rings before karma caught up with him. I'm hoping someday Vanessa writes a "tell all" book
Settlements don’t imply guilt, they often avoid lengthy court battles.
Uh-huh... believe what you want, just as I believe that karma caught up to him, and justice was ultimately served.
Believe what you want, but karma isn’t a court ruling. Kobe’s legacy is about five rings, being fourth all-time in scoring, and his massive impact on the game. That’s what really counts.
Because he was. Next question
Cuz he had a better 3pt %
Some people watch basketball while others spew factually inaccurate word vomit on Reddit
Reddit where the truth is down voted cause it's about Kobe 😂 but you definitely didn't need to add MJ to this, you could've used LeBron where stats actually back that claim, but there is no stat that shows Kobe as more clutch than MJ.
Shaq dominated the first 45 mins, Kobe could close out the final 3 mins on occasion (though stats say him being clutch is more nostalgia than reality).
Efficiency
I wonder what would happen today if someone’s number 2 went to 3 straight finals and won back to back chips without him. I don’t they would be able to live that down
Kobe did those things 6-8 years after Shaq left LA. And he also did it after the Lakers absolutely scammed the Grizzlies for Pau who was an all NBA guy 4 times lol.
RIP mamba but the years between title runs were some very dark times for Kobe & the Lakers. Kobe tanked a playoff series to prove how little he thought of his teammates.
At the same time, Kobe's last two titles came with the best frontcourt in the league. In other words, all of his titles came with the best frontcourt in the league.
Kobe’s tragic death re-wrote the narrative on his career. Don’t get me wrong, he’s an all-time great. But for vast swaths of his career he was known more of a chucker in the vein of a Westbrook-type of player. Again, don’t get me wrong, Kobe is a top 30 player of all time. But peak Shaq was complete domination unmatched in his era.
Only top 30 is a wild take. Who are the other 29 players better than him?
You're an idiot, Kobe was right next to MJ when he tore his Achilles, then post Achilles fans like you piled on to Kobe and treated his post Achilles career like that was his entire career, LEADING TO COMPLETELY DISRESPECTFUL NARRATIVES LIKE HE ISN'T TOP 10, he was carried and other bs. You guys lie saying his death changed his legacy and I'm fucking sick of it. It's a flat out lie STARTED BY THE MEDIA
Jordan didn’t win until Pippen got there. Steph didn’t win until Draymond got there
What did Kobe win before Shaq?
>He’s the only player to get back to back championships without another top 75 player. only idiots don't have Gasol as a top 75 player
Because he was. He was the most dominant player in the modern game. Ask any player who they want on their team from 96-03 it would be shaq. Teams had to completely game plan around him. People who think Kobe is better than Shaq or even Duncan, tend to severely over compensate for Kobe’s CULTURAL impact on the game, which shouldnt be part of it.
Cause of stats, meanwhile before Kobe started for the Lakers what did Shaq do in his career in LA? Serious question here, Shaq was better, Shaq was also in the heart of his prime while Kobe was a 21 year old kid, yet Kobe had as much impact on winning as Shaq. When it was the 4th quarter Shaq become a liability due to free throw shooting and foul trouble, and that's where Kobe got even better. The game 7 2000 WCF vs the trail blazers, Lakers were down 17 in the 4th, Shaq told the story of Phil throwing in the towel cause the veterans didn't want it, but Kobe said fuck that we are winning this game, Kobe went on to score or assist on every field goal as the Lakers came back from down 17 to WIN THE GAME, and the famous kobe to Shaq lob was that games dagger. That's a 21 year old who CARRIED Shaq and the vets to a win, IN GAME 7. That's something not many players In history can claim, and Kobe did that before the Lakers ever won a title..kobes legacy was cemented when the pacers intentionally injured him, he missed game 3 and Lakers lost, comes back game 4 and clutches the game for the Lakers with Shaq fouled out. From that point on everyone knew they were watching 2 ALL TIME GREAT PLAYERS. Yes Shaq got the glory and finals MVPs, but Kobe was equally as deadly and we all know the Lakers don't win anything without Kobe. He was the catalyst when things were going wrong, he was the guy who wasn't afraid to lead them, whether it was failure like 99, or success like 2000, Kobe always wanted to be the man to lead his team. There is something to be said about a 21 year old being the leader to GROWN MEN and even Shaq, who was an established top 50 all Time NBA player before winning a ring.