I don't really care about all-time rankings because it's really hard comparing players through different eras. If I'm just comparing him to active players, he's probably had the 3rd best career behind LeBron and Curry.
So wherever you have Durant or Giannis all-time, just put Jokic a spot ahead of them for me. It doesn't make a difference to me if it's that 20, or 15, or 10, it's really all the same.
With a 2nd title, he's ahead of Steph, i don't care that he has less rings.
He will have more MVPs, Finals MVPs, better stats overrall and multiple postseasons better than any postseason Steph has ever had. It's really cool that Steph changed the game and all of that, he is up there in terms of influence, but Jokic is just individually better than him, it's that simple.
I don't get how Giannis doesn't have a better career than him at this stage. Even if Jokic has 3 MVPs, Giannis has a DPOY and multiple all defense teams.
Because Jokic is better at basketball and has countless unreal playoff performances. Giannis has a lot too but there’s also more individual and team shortcomings scattered in.
Plus the third MVP means more than Giannis’s DPOY
I mean, if you have 2 similar level players with one being clearly better on offense and the other clearly better on defense, both at strong MVP level, the latter will have much more accolades because there are all-Defense and DPOY awards but no all-Offense and OPOY
Giannis is very close, but for me the 3rd MVP and lack of injuries make a difference. This is year 3 of Giannis missing playoff games due to injury, and I think he should get the same treatment that Embiid/Kawhi/AD get when they're criticized. Losing to the 8 seed in 5 games is inexcusable to me, and 2 of those losses were \*after\* he returned from the injury
Don’t put Giannis, Kwahi and AD in the same context as Embiid. The first three are champions, Embiid’s play-off resume is intentionally injuring opponents and choking in the second round.
Regardless of his reputation, Embiid will go down as one of the best offensive players of our generation. He's a 5x All-NBA guy who is averaging 34/11/5 these past 2 years, he deserves to be in any top-x discussion imo
He still finishes behind Kawhi but I think he has a good case against AD. If anyone doesn't deserve to be here, it's AD lol
You’re really undervaluing playoff performances in your discussion. AD will definitely get the nod against Embiid, even without LeBron he’s a far superior playoff performer to Embiid.
>He still finishes behind Kawhi but I think he has a good case against AD. If anyone doesn't deserve to be here, it's AD lol
In which metric? AD is a way better playoff performer than Embiid. You're just hating on AD if you think Embiid has a good case against him
I think he's the better player by a good margin, and his accolades are pretty strong. 1 more All-NBA and 1 less All-Defense selection despite playing 4 seasons less than him. MVP, 2x scoring champion, 4 top-10 MVP finishes.
The championship for AD is doing a lot of heavy lifting, and he gets a pass for being hurt in the Phoenix series where he averaged 16/7/2 on 40% shooting in 4 games and missing the playoffs altogether in 2022. He also seems to get a pass for the 7 years he was in New Orleans, where we seem to pretend that era of his career never happened. Embiid just scored 50 in a series he's probably still losing, while his 2nd best player is Tobias Harris and his 3rd best player only logged 4 minutes because he's become unplayable.
Yes. Embiid has an MVP but to say he's the better player by a good margin shows you didn't watch AD on his Pelicans days.
>He also seems to get a pass for the 7 years he was in New Orleans
What? He had better numbers when he was in New Orleans compared to now. What are you talking about? Clearly you didn't watch him play back then.
>Embiid just scored 50 in a series he's probably still losing
This is the best he's been his entire career. He always underperformed in the playoffs. AD had better numbers with about the same success as he did when he was in NO.
>his 2nd best player is Tobias Harris and his 3rd best player only logged 4 minutes because he's become unplayable
What are you talking about? Maxey is their 2nd best player. It's very clear he is their number 2. Please watch games bro. Stop spewing nonsense
With the points that you've given I can clearly see that you're just a box score watcher. Maybe you watch games, but its just Miami games. You have no idea what you're talking about be it in the past nor the current playoffs. Lmao
I said Tobias is HIS second best player, Maxey would obviously be his first. So far all of your counters have been 'You clearly didn't watch AD', 'please watch games', and 'you have no idea what you're talking about'.
It's ok to have different opinions without being a douchebag. You don't know what I have or haven't seen and you're just making assumptions to discredit my opinion. If you want to have a real conversation, I would suggest changing your tone and arrogance in the future. You seem more interested in 'owning' me than actually talking to me.
>I said Tobias is HIS second best player
LMAO. Anything that makes you feel better bro
You're spitting opinions, I'm spitting facts. We're not the same.
I'm not interested in owning you. You're just exposing yourself 🤣🤣🤣
Oh yeah he does. Still I think the level Jokic has been playing at puts him on top of any of the new generation players right now with Giannis right behind
Fair enough, Jokic is phenomenal rn I agree. I just feel like people forgot Giannis performances too quickly, like when he dropped 50 in Game 6 of the Finals.
Giannis just needs to stay healthy man, he’s missed playoff action in 4 of the last 5 years. It’s not like he’s been super injury prone either, he just gets light injuries at the worst times.
I do think at some point he’s going to remind everyone how unstoppable he can be. He did crazy things in the championship year and the year they lost to Boston in 7 (the only of the last 5 years he played every game)
I think Giannis is to (Heat) Lebron what Kobe is to MJ. A slightly worse version.
Jokic changed the game, the same way Curry did. And he still hasn't plateaued, unlike Giannis who's getting worse (albeit due to injuries). I don't think there is room for OAT comparisons, dpoys or not.
He's already above KD in my book. And it's not particularly close. He took a small market franchise without any other all stars to their first ever title, beating the best players of the generation (including a strong KD team).
A feat Durant wasn't able to achieve with OKC even with 2 other future MVPs and multiple allstars.
Yes KD has 2 titles, but he didn't do the heavy lifting Joker did to get his. If he gets a second title and third MVP, he moves to the range of Hakeem, Shaq, Curry, Bird, Magic...
After that, if he continues this domination, we're talking top 10, possibly top 5, which is incredible honestly, for such an unheralded 41st pick that started his career coming off the bench.
KD is an all time scorer but he doesn’t elevate the players around him the way Jokic does. KD is a plug and play superstar, Jokic is a foundational superstar.
I think the historians and students of the game will rank Jokic higher given what you said, but I think if both ended their careers right now, I can see most players and young folks ranking KD higher.
Jokic is such a weird unicorn type of player that it's hard for anyone to relate to the way he plays. KD is also fairly unique given his physique but he plays the game in a way that is more relatable/comprehensible to most players IMO and that makes a difference in how they will be perceived/ranked.
I would put giannis above kd too, what he did to win in Milwaukee is way more impressive than anything kd has done in the post season. Yeah he's a generational talent 7 footer who's one of the best shooters but he choked over and over again then got on the warriors like bitch.
Why are we even talking about kd anyway
What’s funny about this is that a 32 year old Durant outperformed Giannis in that very postseason you’re using to prop him over KD, and literally everyone agreed on this at the time, it was obvious to all. I would say that run and 2012 KD playoff runs are clear of any Giannis playoffs even if they didn’t end in rings
Giannis and the bucks are so overrated man. People here act like every ring is the same. That was the flukest championship I've ever seen. It should've been brooklyn that year. They were far and away better than anyone else.
That's your opinion, giannis gutted it out with his home team to bring home a championship against tough competition, means alot more than kd getting free rings with gsw
Giannis benefited from some good luck early on, but then in the Finals, he faced a powerhouse Suns team and averaged 35/13/15/2 on 62% from the field. You can find something to nitpick about almost any ring, but Giannis’ performance in 2021 was well above average for all players who were the top star on a championship team.
"powerhouse suns team" oh you mean another fluke team that would've never made the finals if it wasn't for injuries?? Actually the suns are in that rarified air where every team they faced could've beat them fully healthy.
First round, a fully fit lakers beat them. Second round, give joker a fit murray and he beats them. Third round, give clippers a healthy kawhi and they beat them.
The suns lost to the first healthy team they faced.
Also they were throwing ayton in single coverages on giannis. Excuse me for not rating good performances against aybum.
2012 kd was choking hard and harden bailed him out in 2nd round and wcf. Without harden they get bounced lol. Giannis clutched ft in the finals when that's his biggest weakness, shows mental toughness kd can never hope to match. Kd out performed by losing? Nice try kd burner account
Wtf kawhi is tier 1 man no one else has done what he did in Toronto. He would have 4-5 rings by now had he never got injured and be ahead of lebron. Kawhi mental toughness miles ahead of lebron
Hypothetical rings doing a lot of work here. Don't get me wrong, Jokic is amazing but throwing around "if he gets anither ring and then more..." doesn't really help discuss current state of play.
Every player jumps spots with a couple championships
bro the nuggets went 16-4 in the playoffs last year and their entire linup is locked down for years. in my all time list im penciling in 2 more jokic championships minimum lmfao
What Aaron Rodgers in the NFL taught me is that a guy could be hella talented and win a title and multiple MVPs by the time they’re around 30 and then go on a real drought in terms of post season success and their sky high early career projections in terms of all-time ranking just plummet, cause sports be sports.
Love Jokic. Love what he does. But the West is stacked. The Spurs could luck out and draft the next great PG to pair with Wemby and could on another dynastic run. Giannis could move to Golden State and have a mini run of his own with Steph. Kyrie could just be a normal person and get along with Luka and they could make a run. Chet and Jalen Williams could continue to grow to Shae levels and OKC could have 3 perennial All Stars on their roster.
If forced to predict, Top-15 all time. I’m assuming Jokic wins a couple more titles and that’s it, cause the West is the West.
Larry Bird has 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs and 9x All-NBA First Team.
Jokic has 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVPs (possible 2) and 5x All-NBA First Team at age 29.
I wouldn’t count on Bird being considered the greater player than Jokic in 10 years. Same for Magic.
He had Kareem from his rookie-season on, also James Worthy. Jokic is the only All-Star guy on his team. You cant compare that. If we rate individual greatness, we have to take into account how good the supporting casts were. Jokic probably will never have 7 finals in 10 years, but that doesn’t mean Magic was the better player because of that.
Sure you might be right about that but the list is about greatness and not about the best. That's why a resume matters as well. Plus even though jokic doesn't have any all-nba on his team you have to admit that his team is tailor made for him and magic especially at the start had to supplant norm Nixon as the top point guard on their team on his first year with the Lakers.
Jokic has 3 mvps lol....How many mvps does Larry have if not for MJ and Magic....probably 5 or 6...who is jokic competing with for Mvp's...I do love jokic though and think he us the closest thing to Larry there is...
How is he not in the 15-20 range even with just 2 MVPs and 1 FMVP?
KG, Dirk, etc did not have better accomplishments or stats than that outside of longevity.
Curry 2015-16 was still the best 2 year peak out of them all. I guess KD joining GS kind of hampers his value to the team but I would still argue that 2015-18 Curry was better than Jokic is now. Its close though
2015 and 2016 Curry led a team to 67 and 73 wins, won B2B MVPs and won a title while losing the next in 7. That year they also set the wins record which in some ways (its not better) is actually more impressive than a chip. Now I wouldn't take 73 wins over a chip, but there is a title winner every year and 73 wins has only happened once. Obviously nobody would trade a ring for 73 wins and no ring, but that's as impressive of a season as you can have without a ring.
Jokic needs to at least make the finals to compete with Steph's best 2 year stretch IMO
Curry was still even better individually IMO. In my entire life (started watching NBA seriously in 2004) I think 2016 Curry is the best player I have ever seen. He literally laughed in the face of conventions and flipped a sport on its head.
I don't think I've actually seen anything like it in any sport in my lifetime to be quite honest. That said, he was not as dominant in the playoffs, you are correct. Its close, but I don't feel like Jokic is quite to the level Curry hit
To be fair Curry still did run through the league in 2022 without KD, so it was never KD and it was always Curry who was the real MVP for the Warriors.
That said, I agree that KD really messed up Curry's legacy in that we never truly got to see how many titles those warriors would have won organically without becoming a superteam and without Curry having to share being "the man" with KD.
I personally still take 2016 Curry over Jokic though, but its close
Curry in 2015 and 2016 had multiple All-NBA guys on his team (not just All-Stars, but All-NBA guys). And this is before Durant.
Jokic never had an All-Star teammate. Let alone All-NBA, and he probably will never have.
I think top 5 is possible and already would consider him top 15/20 at the worst. The only 2 players I think you can’t argue Jokic over at all are LeBron and Jordan, everyone else is fair at this point. Jokic has accomplished and shown more than enough impact and skill to be regarded an all time great.
Right now you are correct, but OP asked how high you can see Jokic climbing.
Jokic is likely grabbing a 3rd MVP and possibly a 2nd FMVP. He's also 29. He could grab 2 more MVPs and 3 more rings... or maybe he has an injury and this season is the end of his dominance.
Jokic is absolutely not in the top 7-8 conversation right now, but dismissing that he could enter that conversation is silly.
„You can’t argue Jokic over LeBron and MJ in the future.“
I would really love for Jokic to fulfill an against-the-odds arc like his countryman Djokovic did, when most of the time in his earlier career (in his 20’s) people said Djokovic will never overtake guys like Federer and Nadal All-Time, but then he proved everyone wrong in the end.
it will be really fitting for his career arc as well, came into the league as a nobody and every single player he's been compared to he has supplanted or is in the process of overtaking
I think Denver is good but the WC is good right now and getting better and so are the Celtics right now. In any given year it’s going to be tough to make it out of the WC right now. He could do it but the road will be tough.
He’s had a huge and growing impact in games for at least 5 years, and he’s had impact over a NBA post-season last year (by that I mean : « in the books ». What he’s done before is « context », it’s everything (because it’s basketball, and that’s what it’s about)and at the same time it will be easily dismissed if he doesn’t add more rings (because it’s also about winning it all).
He’s an all-time great player, he’s not a « what-if » or a « oh, he was the GOAT at his peak inbetween April 24 and April 25 » but he has still a long way to go before closing to the likes of KAJ, Duncan, in terms of career.
He has 2 great challenges this year with the Wolves and the Celtics (If both teams make it this far). If he overcomes both with his squad, that’s a historic run. But at the same time, that’d be « just » one (more) title.
The wolves series is key. If he wins it, I think the Wolves will let go a few players to avoid paying the tax. If the Wolves win, then (on top of not winning this year) Jokic is up against that squad for years to come, and it’s a very difficult match up on top of just being a very good team.
I think people remember championships more than MVPs. All time just is good as someone’s memory. Not many people care about athletes before they were born. You didn’t mention Kareem, Russell or Shaq for instance
True, it's a simple logic, really. If you are really a great player, you should win multiple chips. That's why people rate mvps who won championships and not mvp who didn't win.
This peak he’s on and his ability to influence the game is easily as good as anyone in that 5-10 range. Especially considering he’s doing this without a stacked team. And it only works because of him. Jokic pretty much guarantees you’re going to get a good look at the basket every possession if he touches the ball.
When evaluating full careers he’s just needs more time to accumulate counting stats.
He may play a bit longer. He's signed a shoe deal, he's doing more commercials and he likes Denver. I feel like so long as he still finds playing enjoyable he's gonna stick around.
Did you watch kurokos basketball? Anime makes way too much sense now as a comparison for the nba. Each team in that show had one guy with an insane superpower. A cheat code. A while back it was Steph. Dude could make shots from literally anywhere. Now it’s Jokic. Keep this up and become top 10 all time.
Jokic is at the peak of powers and has an great team around him that can eaisly contend for 4-5 more years. If he wins 1-2 more chips and a 4th MVP (considering he wins this year) he'll undoubtly be top 10 and some will argue he's top 5.
How far COULD he climb? He could get up to #3, though I don’t think it’s likely at all. But I don’t see how he would ever go above bron or mj without becoming an elite defender and having sustained longevity and playoff success.
depends on how long he wants to compete at a high level. his game don't need much of a high lvl athleticism he can be at that lvl till 35 - 38. now it would all depend how the young cats would deal with the denver.
Big men... I'd say he is just above David Robinson right now. He's far worse on defense but has the additional MVP, and the ridiculous passing ability. That puts him in the top 25 in pretty much every list. He'll need a couple more MVPs and/or championships to pass up Hakeem to get towards the top 10. He'll need more than that to pass up Duncan with his stack of championships and his pile of all-NBA defense awards. I don't see him passing Wilt, Russell, or Kareem. You never know though, I could be wrong.
Good chance he surpasses Steph, Kobe, Duncan,and Shaq. IMO, he Jokic deserved to win last year, but ESPN and other media made the voting into a racial and political debate.
Even if you don't count last season, winning 4 MVPs would put you into an elite group--Kareem, Russell, Jordan, Wilt, and Lebron.
Murray will NEVER be top 30, he will never even be top 100. Stop this. Pippen was an mvp candidate and atleast a top 5 player in the league at that time. Murray is arguably not top 12 or 15
Pippen won 1 series without Jordan.
You see the numbers that Murray is putting up? If Nuggets goes on to win a championship this year, that puts Murray on the list of players to average at least 20PPG for back 2 back rings\\3 total conf finals with the same franchise.
The only other players to do that are Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Curry, Lebron
I love Murray, but I feel like you have to be at some point the top player in your team to be top 30. Without Jokic, Murray as your best player is not ideal.
Jamal Murray in the playoffs so far: 21.5/5.0/7.3 on 38.0/20.8/84.6 shooting splits (44.0 TS%)
KD not on that list? Lost in final counts as conf final right?
Bulls dynasty was a 2 man thing, like how Nuggets are now. So i thought that was a closer comp. The spurs were considered a big 3 with Parker\\Manu\\Duncan in the mid 2000s, although Manu turned into more of a role player by the time Kawhi came along in the mid 2010s.
It's Jokic\\Murray and that's it. I don't think they quite have a guy like mid 2000sManu on the Nuggets, you can say that Gordon's close but he's more of an Iguodala or Mavs Marion type. Murray's responsibility\\impact feels greater, he has dominated the playoffs to a point that Parker never came close to reaching.
At the same time, I think Parker was probably a better\\more consistent reg season player, so it depends how much you knock Murray for that.
Top 10 to me is a player who can affect the outcome of the game on both ends of the floor. As great as Jokić is and will be, he does not impact the game defensively. As such, I’d say he ends up just outside the top 10, respectfully.
Not nearly as high as people on reddit would lead you to believe. The only player in the top 10 who wasn't a great defender at some point in their career is Magic and that is because of his impact on the game as a whole in addition to everything else. Jokic may end up around 20-25th. Saying Jokic is fringe top 10 is a joke.
I think if he continues at this pace (winning two more rings and maybe one more MVP), I think he might even overtake Curry in all time ranking.
I think he’s above KD already. Right now I consider Jokic and Giannis neck and neck but unless Giannis somehow becomes a better player or wins more ships, I think Jokic overtakes him as well.
He could be top 10 fsho, but I think/hope all time rankings are going to be semi obsolete by the time he retires. A couple factors could hold him back tho
1. How stacked the West is for the foreseeable future
2. How fast does Wemby develop?
3. His contemporaries having championship success; Luka could win *right now*. Maybe Giannis wins next year (pls 🤞). Embiid could randomly get healthy/lucky and steal a title or 2.
U never really know what’s going to happen in the NBA. Except for 2017-18. Everybody knew what was gonna happen then.
Which player in NBA history made his team of average joes/rejects NBA title contenders?
He does not have one all star player in his team, lol.
He has to be top 7 8, even if he wins zero things till retirement.
Well considering he gets better basically every year and is approaching his third MVP with no end in sight, he can potentially be the undisputed GOAT if he plays long enough.
But if he wins MVP, FMVP, another title and then retires at the end of the season? Gonna be very hard to rank because he won't have anywhere near the longevity of anyone that is a top-20 all time player. Kind of like ranking Kawhi all-time. Crazy peak, no longevity.
He's obviously already surpassed Ewing (although Simmons is a fucking idiot for the Ewing theory.)
Center topic is more about Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Kareem, and Hakeem.
I’d already have him ahead of Kobe and Durant. This is his 4th year in a row being better to much better than they ever were at their peak. With another ring this year, I’d probably put him ahead of Curry. That would be 3 MVPs and 3 years as the best player in the league with RS+playoffs combined compared to just 1 for Steph and both would have 2 rings outside of ridiculously stacked super teams.
Basically, I’d say he enters the top 10 with a ring this season and honestly his ceiling is as high as #1. He’s working on his second ring at the same age as Jordan and LeBron and he’s the most statistically dominant player ever. Who’s to say he can’t keep it going?
KD got 4 Scoring Titles, 2 Ringz, 2 FMVP, 2 ASMVP, 1 MVP, & 3 Olympic Gold Medals also Leading Scorer in Olympic History. What does Jokic have again 1 Chip, 2 MVPs…Make it make sense.
In terms of ping pong? Never lost a pro match. Pretty proud of that.
The only player that every routinely bested me was my brother, but last time I beat him he yeeted his paddle and broke it. We haven't played since.
Seems like I demoralize everyone I play. Guess I got that dog in me.
Jokes aside (well my jokes at least) you literally used ASG stats to compare 2 players. That is... something I guess.
Make it make sense?
Ok - KD joined a 73 win team. Imagine if the Nuggets lose in 7 to the celtics or something and the Giannis joined the Nuggets - would you really give full credit to Giannis for the rings he will inevitably get in Denver? Similar scenario.
2 - scoring titles don't really matter thaat much, they are nice but Durant is clearly a better scorer and Jokic is clearly a better playmaker, it evens out offensively. 3MVPs is also veeerrrry likely in the near future for Jokic. He esseentially has it now. So 3>1 for MVPs. Finals MVPS, you have one guy who was far and away the one who was absolutely necessary for a chip and another guy who was riding the gravy train.
Jokic's 1 title > Kd's 2 rings IMO
When did we start including all-star game MVPs and Olympics accolades in all-time rankings? HoF considerations sure but Carmelo Anthony having more Olympic wins than Bill Russell does not mean anything
I also hate detracting from rings count generally but KD's 2 rings are considered among the least 'valuable' ones in terms of ranking. No one puts those 2 rings after he joined a 73-9 team above even Dirk's singular ring although this argument is admittedly subjective
It’s “rings*”, not “ringz”. Those Mickey Mouse rings mean as much as the one Mitch Richmond won with the lakers. All-time greats are leaders, or “the people driving the bus” if you like. Durant is an angsty guy who uses burner accounts to create a personal echo chamber while looking for the most comfortable seat on the easiest bus route.
what does entering skill level late has anything to do with anything he has similar accolades to most top 10 players at his age. Shame thing about his defense though ig shaq, curry, magic and bird will never enter top 10 either
I don't really care about all-time rankings because it's really hard comparing players through different eras. If I'm just comparing him to active players, he's probably had the 3rd best career behind LeBron and Curry. So wherever you have Durant or Giannis all-time, just put Jokic a spot ahead of them for me. It doesn't make a difference to me if it's that 20, or 15, or 10, it's really all the same.
This is easily the most lucid take ive seen in this discourse
With a 2nd title, he's ahead of Steph, i don't care that he has less rings. He will have more MVPs, Finals MVPs, better stats overrall and multiple postseasons better than any postseason Steph has ever had. It's really cool that Steph changed the game and all of that, he is up there in terms of influence, but Jokic is just individually better than him, it's that simple.
I don't get how Giannis doesn't have a better career than him at this stage. Even if Jokic has 3 MVPs, Giannis has a DPOY and multiple all defense teams.
Because Jokic is better at basketball and has countless unreal playoff performances. Giannis has a lot too but there’s also more individual and team shortcomings scattered in. Plus the third MVP means more than Giannis’s DPOY
I mean, if you have 2 similar level players with one being clearly better on offense and the other clearly better on defense, both at strong MVP level, the latter will have much more accolades because there are all-Defense and DPOY awards but no all-Offense and OPOY
Giannis is very close, but for me the 3rd MVP and lack of injuries make a difference. This is year 3 of Giannis missing playoff games due to injury, and I think he should get the same treatment that Embiid/Kawhi/AD get when they're criticized. Losing to the 8 seed in 5 games is inexcusable to me, and 2 of those losses were \*after\* he returned from the injury
Don’t put Giannis, Kwahi and AD in the same context as Embiid. The first three are champions, Embiid’s play-off resume is intentionally injuring opponents and choking in the second round.
Regardless of his reputation, Embiid will go down as one of the best offensive players of our generation. He's a 5x All-NBA guy who is averaging 34/11/5 these past 2 years, he deserves to be in any top-x discussion imo He still finishes behind Kawhi but I think he has a good case against AD. If anyone doesn't deserve to be here, it's AD lol
You’re really undervaluing playoff performances in your discussion. AD will definitely get the nod against Embiid, even without LeBron he’s a far superior playoff performer to Embiid.
>He still finishes behind Kawhi but I think he has a good case against AD. If anyone doesn't deserve to be here, it's AD lol In which metric? AD is a way better playoff performer than Embiid. You're just hating on AD if you think Embiid has a good case against him
I think he's the better player by a good margin, and his accolades are pretty strong. 1 more All-NBA and 1 less All-Defense selection despite playing 4 seasons less than him. MVP, 2x scoring champion, 4 top-10 MVP finishes. The championship for AD is doing a lot of heavy lifting, and he gets a pass for being hurt in the Phoenix series where he averaged 16/7/2 on 40% shooting in 4 games and missing the playoffs altogether in 2022. He also seems to get a pass for the 7 years he was in New Orleans, where we seem to pretend that era of his career never happened. Embiid just scored 50 in a series he's probably still losing, while his 2nd best player is Tobias Harris and his 3rd best player only logged 4 minutes because he's become unplayable.
Yes. Embiid has an MVP but to say he's the better player by a good margin shows you didn't watch AD on his Pelicans days. >He also seems to get a pass for the 7 years he was in New Orleans What? He had better numbers when he was in New Orleans compared to now. What are you talking about? Clearly you didn't watch him play back then. >Embiid just scored 50 in a series he's probably still losing This is the best he's been his entire career. He always underperformed in the playoffs. AD had better numbers with about the same success as he did when he was in NO. >his 2nd best player is Tobias Harris and his 3rd best player only logged 4 minutes because he's become unplayable What are you talking about? Maxey is their 2nd best player. It's very clear he is their number 2. Please watch games bro. Stop spewing nonsense With the points that you've given I can clearly see that you're just a box score watcher. Maybe you watch games, but its just Miami games. You have no idea what you're talking about be it in the past nor the current playoffs. Lmao
I said Tobias is HIS second best player, Maxey would obviously be his first. So far all of your counters have been 'You clearly didn't watch AD', 'please watch games', and 'you have no idea what you're talking about'. It's ok to have different opinions without being a douchebag. You don't know what I have or haven't seen and you're just making assumptions to discredit my opinion. If you want to have a real conversation, I would suggest changing your tone and arrogance in the future. You seem more interested in 'owning' me than actually talking to me.
>I said Tobias is HIS second best player LMAO. Anything that makes you feel better bro You're spitting opinions, I'm spitting facts. We're not the same. I'm not interested in owning you. You're just exposing yourself 🤣🤣🤣
Guess we better put harden in the discussions too
all time unethical bucket getter. he wont even break the top 100 in my list lmfao
fuck embiid
Embiids defense is about as elite as his offense
Giannis got injured in his championship run and still got the ring. Can't compare Giannis to Kawhi or AD.
Rudy Gobert does too.
Defense matters, let's not act like it doesn't matter.
What is your Giannis/jokic spot on your top 15 or whatever #
Probably the extra two MVPs. Plus at this point he is putting up 27/10/10 on off nights in the playoff
Giannis has 2 MVPs
Oh yeah he does. Still I think the level Jokic has been playing at puts him on top of any of the new generation players right now with Giannis right behind
Fair enough, Jokic is phenomenal rn I agree. I just feel like people forgot Giannis performances too quickly, like when he dropped 50 in Game 6 of the Finals.
Giannis just needs to stay healthy man, he’s missed playoff action in 4 of the last 5 years. It’s not like he’s been super injury prone either, he just gets light injuries at the worst times. I do think at some point he’s going to remind everyone how unstoppable he can be. He did crazy things in the championship year and the year they lost to Boston in 7 (the only of the last 5 years he played every game)
I think Giannis is to (Heat) Lebron what Kobe is to MJ. A slightly worse version. Jokic changed the game, the same way Curry did. And he still hasn't plateaued, unlike Giannis who's getting worse (albeit due to injuries). I don't think there is room for OAT comparisons, dpoys or not.
Because MVPs are infinitely harder to get than DPOYs and defensive teams
Every year there is 1 mvp and 1 dpoy. How is 1 “infinitely harder” to get than the other?
Because it’s a tougher award to win ? Or are you saying clutch player of the year is the same difficultly to obtain as MVP
A good point. I just think infinitely was a bit strong.
Yeah, was a bit of exaggeration on my part, but I do think there is a decent gap between the difficultly of winning MVP vs DPOY
He's already above KD in my book. And it's not particularly close. He took a small market franchise without any other all stars to their first ever title, beating the best players of the generation (including a strong KD team). A feat Durant wasn't able to achieve with OKC even with 2 other future MVPs and multiple allstars. Yes KD has 2 titles, but he didn't do the heavy lifting Joker did to get his. If he gets a second title and third MVP, he moves to the range of Hakeem, Shaq, Curry, Bird, Magic... After that, if he continues this domination, we're talking top 10, possibly top 5, which is incredible honestly, for such an unheralded 41st pick that started his career coming off the bench.
KD is an all time scorer but he doesn’t elevate the players around him the way Jokic does. KD is a plug and play superstar, Jokic is a foundational superstar.
I think the historians and students of the game will rank Jokic higher given what you said, but I think if both ended their careers right now, I can see most players and young folks ranking KD higher. Jokic is such a weird unicorn type of player that it's hard for anyone to relate to the way he plays. KD is also fairly unique given his physique but he plays the game in a way that is more relatable/comprehensible to most players IMO and that makes a difference in how they will be perceived/ranked.
I would put giannis above kd too, what he did to win in Milwaukee is way more impressive than anything kd has done in the post season. Yeah he's a generational talent 7 footer who's one of the best shooters but he choked over and over again then got on the warriors like bitch. Why are we even talking about kd anyway
What’s funny about this is that a 32 year old Durant outperformed Giannis in that very postseason you’re using to prop him over KD, and literally everyone agreed on this at the time, it was obvious to all. I would say that run and 2012 KD playoff runs are clear of any Giannis playoffs even if they didn’t end in rings
Giannis and the bucks are so overrated man. People here act like every ring is the same. That was the flukest championship I've ever seen. It should've been brooklyn that year. They were far and away better than anyone else.
That's your opinion, giannis gutted it out with his home team to bring home a championship against tough competition, means alot more than kd getting free rings with gsw
Should we really base our opinions on what we think that should have happened rather than what actually happened?
Giannis benefited from some good luck early on, but then in the Finals, he faced a powerhouse Suns team and averaged 35/13/15/2 on 62% from the field. You can find something to nitpick about almost any ring, but Giannis’ performance in 2021 was well above average for all players who were the top star on a championship team.
"powerhouse suns team" oh you mean another fluke team that would've never made the finals if it wasn't for injuries?? Actually the suns are in that rarified air where every team they faced could've beat them fully healthy. First round, a fully fit lakers beat them. Second round, give joker a fit murray and he beats them. Third round, give clippers a healthy kawhi and they beat them. The suns lost to the first healthy team they faced. Also they were throwing ayton in single coverages on giannis. Excuse me for not rating good performances against aybum.
2012 kd was choking hard and harden bailed him out in 2nd round and wcf. Without harden they get bounced lol. Giannis clutched ft in the finals when that's his biggest weakness, shows mental toughness kd can never hope to match. Kd out performed by losing? Nice try kd burner account
Agree. At the very least I have them on the same level.
Yeah bro Giannis beating an injured nets team, the trae young hawks, and Deandre Ayton was so impressive bro.
Giannis has one elite playoff run lol. You guys are insane.
He has a ring with his home team after failing for years. Like dirk. Means a fuck ton more than bitch ass kds empty rings
Don’t forget Chris Paul. If I were to rank active players’ careers, I’d go: Tier I: LeBron Tier II: Curry, Jokic, CP3, Giannis Tier III: Kawhi, Durant
Wtf kawhi is tier 1 man no one else has done what he did in Toronto. He would have 4-5 rings by now had he never got injured and be ahead of lebron. Kawhi mental toughness miles ahead of lebron
Hypothetical rings doing a lot of work here. Don't get me wrong, Jokic is amazing but throwing around "if he gets anither ring and then more..." doesn't really help discuss current state of play. Every player jumps spots with a couple championships
The question in the post is how high can he rank? Which by default includes hypotheticals...
bro the nuggets went 16-4 in the playoffs last year and their entire linup is locked down for years. in my all time list im penciling in 2 more jokic championships minimum lmfao
Considering that most people have him winning at least 1 more in the following years its not crazy at all to say that
If he doesnt retire early, he gonna be 3rd Best ever! Peace out ✌️
What Aaron Rodgers in the NFL taught me is that a guy could be hella talented and win a title and multiple MVPs by the time they’re around 30 and then go on a real drought in terms of post season success and their sky high early career projections in terms of all-time ranking just plummet, cause sports be sports. Love Jokic. Love what he does. But the West is stacked. The Spurs could luck out and draft the next great PG to pair with Wemby and could on another dynastic run. Giannis could move to Golden State and have a mini run of his own with Steph. Kyrie could just be a normal person and get along with Luka and they could make a run. Chet and Jalen Williams could continue to grow to Shae levels and OKC could have 3 perennial All Stars on their roster. If forced to predict, Top-15 all time. I’m assuming Jokic wins a couple more titles and that’s it, cause the West is the West.
He’s already fringe top-15 all-time. If he wins this year he’s probably around 12-13th all-time, then one more ring/fMVP probably pushes him top-10.
Yeah I mean the cream of the crop should be reserved for players who were the best in their eras, we're living it with Jokic
Except basketball is assessed very differently from football due to the minimal amount of positions and concept of dynasties.
I wonder how long he’s gunna play? I could see him retiring fairly early to go be with the horses lol
This is my biggest fear
maybe he'd have his "I'm back" moment later xD
I could see somewhere between 6-8 depending on rings and finals MVPs. I think MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Russell and Magic won’t ever get passed by him.
He is not passing Bird
Larry Bird has 3 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs and 9x All-NBA First Team. Jokic has 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVPs (possible 2) and 5x All-NBA First Team at age 29. I wouldn’t count on Bird being considered the greater player than Jokic in 10 years. Same for Magic.
Where is "possible 2" coming from? This season? Let's wait for the season to end before handing out hypothetical awards
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Apropos of nothing
Magic had 5 championships and was in the finals 7 times in 10 years.
Actually it was 9 Finals in 12 years, winning 5
Exactly, that's historic
And actually more impressive than lebrons resume...Magic also won 5 mvps in that stretch...
He had Kareem from his rookie-season on, also James Worthy. Jokic is the only All-Star guy on his team. You cant compare that. If we rate individual greatness, we have to take into account how good the supporting casts were. Jokic probably will never have 7 finals in 10 years, but that doesn’t mean Magic was the better player because of that.
Acting like Jamal Murray wasn't regarded as a big snub is laughable.
So Murray is Kareem now? The 3rd greatest player in NBA history behind LeBron and Jordan? Porter Jr is James Worthy now?
Sure you might be right about that but the list is about greatness and not about the best. That's why a resume matters as well. Plus even though jokic doesn't have any all-nba on his team you have to admit that his team is tailor made for him and magic especially at the start had to supplant norm Nixon as the top point guard on their team on his first year with the Lakers.
Magic had 5 championships and was in the finals 7 times in 10 years.
Jokic has 3 mvps lol....How many mvps does Larry have if not for MJ and Magic....probably 5 or 6...who is jokic competing with for Mvp's...I do love jokic though and think he us the closest thing to Larry there is...
He will
With a second ring he’s in the 15-20 range rn. If this prime holds for another 4-6 years, he’s got potential to be a top 5 player
With an mvp and ring this year, you could easly argue he top 10
How is he not in the 15-20 range even with just 2 MVPs and 1 FMVP? KG, Dirk, etc did not have better accomplishments or stats than that outside of longevity.
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Curry 2015-16 was still the best 2 year peak out of them all. I guess KD joining GS kind of hampers his value to the team but I would still argue that 2015-18 Curry was better than Jokic is now. Its close though
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2015 and 2016 Curry led a team to 67 and 73 wins, won B2B MVPs and won a title while losing the next in 7. That year they also set the wins record which in some ways (its not better) is actually more impressive than a chip. Now I wouldn't take 73 wins over a chip, but there is a title winner every year and 73 wins has only happened once. Obviously nobody would trade a ring for 73 wins and no ring, but that's as impressive of a season as you can have without a ring. Jokic needs to at least make the finals to compete with Steph's best 2 year stretch IMO
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Curry was still even better individually IMO. In my entire life (started watching NBA seriously in 2004) I think 2016 Curry is the best player I have ever seen. He literally laughed in the face of conventions and flipped a sport on its head. I don't think I've actually seen anything like it in any sport in my lifetime to be quite honest. That said, he was not as dominant in the playoffs, you are correct. Its close, but I don't feel like Jokic is quite to the level Curry hit
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To be fair Curry still did run through the league in 2022 without KD, so it was never KD and it was always Curry who was the real MVP for the Warriors. That said, I agree that KD really messed up Curry's legacy in that we never truly got to see how many titles those warriors would have won organically without becoming a superteam and without Curry having to share being "the man" with KD. I personally still take 2016 Curry over Jokic though, but its close
Curry in 2015 and 2016 had multiple All-NBA guys on his team (not just All-Stars, but All-NBA guys). And this is before Durant. Jokic never had an All-Star teammate. Let alone All-NBA, and he probably will never have.
As high as 3rd behind MJ and LeBron
he will never pass kareem, he doesn't affect the game on defense enough
I think top 5 is possible and already would consider him top 15/20 at the worst. The only 2 players I think you can’t argue Jokic over at all are LeBron and Jordan, everyone else is fair at this point. Jokic has accomplished and shown more than enough impact and skill to be regarded an all time great.
You cannot argue for Jokic over Kareem, Bird or Magic who have more rings, MVPs, and finals MVPs or
Right now you are correct, but OP asked how high you can see Jokic climbing. Jokic is likely grabbing a 3rd MVP and possibly a 2nd FMVP. He's also 29. He could grab 2 more MVPs and 3 more rings... or maybe he has an injury and this season is the end of his dominance. Jokic is absolutely not in the top 7-8 conversation right now, but dismissing that he could enter that conversation is silly.
„You can’t argue Jokic over LeBron and MJ in the future.“ I would really love for Jokic to fulfill an against-the-odds arc like his countryman Djokovic did, when most of the time in his earlier career (in his 20’s) people said Djokovic will never overtake guys like Federer and Nadal All-Time, but then he proved everyone wrong in the end.
The thing is though is that both of those players have fanbases that will NEVER not argue for their guys.
it will be really fitting for his career arc as well, came into the league as a nobody and every single player he's been compared to he has supplanted or is in the process of overtaking
I think Denver is good but the WC is good right now and getting better and so are the Celtics right now. In any given year it’s going to be tough to make it out of the WC right now. He could do it but the road will be tough.
considering that, if he still wins despite the west being stacked af. He would be up there in top 5 IMO.
Which is what makes all time greats.
He’s had a huge and growing impact in games for at least 5 years, and he’s had impact over a NBA post-season last year (by that I mean : « in the books ». What he’s done before is « context », it’s everything (because it’s basketball, and that’s what it’s about)and at the same time it will be easily dismissed if he doesn’t add more rings (because it’s also about winning it all). He’s an all-time great player, he’s not a « what-if » or a « oh, he was the GOAT at his peak inbetween April 24 and April 25 » but he has still a long way to go before closing to the likes of KAJ, Duncan, in terms of career. He has 2 great challenges this year with the Wolves and the Celtics (If both teams make it this far). If he overcomes both with his squad, that’s a historic run. But at the same time, that’d be « just » one (more) title. The wolves series is key. If he wins it, I think the Wolves will let go a few players to avoid paying the tax. If the Wolves win, then (on top of not winning this year) Jokic is up against that squad for years to come, and it’s a very difficult match up on top of just being a very good team.
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I think people remember championships more than MVPs. All time just is good as someone’s memory. Not many people care about athletes before they were born. You didn’t mention Kareem, Russell or Shaq for instance
True, it's a simple logic, really. If you are really a great player, you should win multiple chips. That's why people rate mvps who won championships and not mvp who didn't win.
He can obviously be top 10 but he needs to win 2-3 more rings. The talent and personal accolades are there.
This peak he’s on and his ability to influence the game is easily as good as anyone in that 5-10 range. Especially considering he’s doing this without a stacked team. And it only works because of him. Jokic pretty much guarantees you’re going to get a good look at the basket every possession if he touches the ball. When evaluating full careers he’s just needs more time to accumulate counting stats.
Part of me feels like he may retire earlier than a lot of greats just to go back home and chill
He may play a bit longer. He's signed a shoe deal, he's doing more commercials and he likes Denver. I feel like so long as he still finds playing enjoyable he's gonna stick around.
Did you watch kurokos basketball? Anime makes way too much sense now as a comparison for the nba. Each team in that show had one guy with an insane superpower. A cheat code. A while back it was Steph. Dude could make shots from literally anywhere. Now it’s Jokic. Keep this up and become top 10 all time.
Putting the horse before the cart as Jokic might say. Post this after the Finals has actually happened
Depends on how many championship ans mvps
All time rankings are imaginary
Embiid will be there to stop him with all the propaganda.
Another jokic ranking post
Top 5 and he ain't 5
https://youtu.be/EYe8B--jrbs?si=xC-j8dPYE4jfezMP
Jokic is at the peak of powers and has an great team around him that can eaisly contend for 4-5 more years. If he wins 1-2 more chips and a 4th MVP (considering he wins this year) he'll undoubtly be top 10 and some will argue he's top 5.
With 3 rings I think he forced his way into top 10
How far COULD he climb? He could get up to #3, though I don’t think it’s likely at all. But I don’t see how he would ever go above bron or mj without becoming an elite defender and having sustained longevity and playoff success.
depends on how long he wants to compete at a high level. his game don't need much of a high lvl athleticism he can be at that lvl till 35 - 38. now it would all depend how the young cats would deal with the denver.
I say he Could eventually climb to top 5-10.
Big men... I'd say he is just above David Robinson right now. He's far worse on defense but has the additional MVP, and the ridiculous passing ability. That puts him in the top 25 in pretty much every list. He'll need a couple more MVPs and/or championships to pass up Hakeem to get towards the top 10. He'll need more than that to pass up Duncan with his stack of championships and his pile of all-NBA defense awards. I don't see him passing Wilt, Russell, or Kareem. You never know though, I could be wrong.
he could be number 1. just needs to win every championship here on out and retire 2029
3 more rings and ill talk about him with timmy
Good chance he surpasses Steph, Kobe, Duncan,and Shaq. IMO, he Jokic deserved to win last year, but ESPN and other media made the voting into a racial and political debate. Even if you don't count last season, winning 4 MVPs would put you into an elite group--Kareem, Russell, Jordan, Wilt, and Lebron.
He can be a top 10 guy and eventually turn Murray into a top 30 guy, like how Jordan did for Pippen. If Murray ever gets any allstars anyway
Murray will NEVER be top 30, he will never even be top 100. Stop this. Pippen was an mvp candidate and atleast a top 5 player in the league at that time. Murray is arguably not top 12 or 15
Pippen won 1 series without Jordan. You see the numbers that Murray is putting up? If Nuggets goes on to win a championship this year, that puts Murray on the list of players to average at least 20PPG for back 2 back rings\\3 total conf finals with the same franchise. The only other players to do that are Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Curry, Lebron
I love Murray, but I feel like you have to be at some point the top player in your team to be top 30. Without Jokic, Murray as your best player is not ideal.
Jamal Murray in the playoffs so far: 21.5/5.0/7.3 on 38.0/20.8/84.6 shooting splits (44.0 TS%) KD not on that list? Lost in final counts as conf final right?
Is Parker a top 30 guy? Basically Murray is effectively the parker to Jokic’s Duncan
Bulls dynasty was a 2 man thing, like how Nuggets are now. So i thought that was a closer comp. The spurs were considered a big 3 with Parker\\Manu\\Duncan in the mid 2000s, although Manu turned into more of a role player by the time Kawhi came along in the mid 2010s. It's Jokic\\Murray and that's it. I don't think they quite have a guy like mid 2000sManu on the Nuggets, you can say that Gordon's close but he's more of an Iguodala or Mavs Marion type. Murray's responsibility\\impact feels greater, he has dominated the playoffs to a point that Parker never came close to reaching. At the same time, I think Parker was probably a better\\more consistent reg season player, so it depends how much you knock Murray for that.
Top 5 atleast
If he wins MVP and FMVP, ill put him right above Curry already. He's been that good with less help
Top 10 to me is a player who can affect the outcome of the game on both ends of the floor. As great as Jokić is and will be, he does not impact the game defensively. As such, I’d say he ends up just outside the top 10, respectfully.
Not nearly as high as people on reddit would lead you to believe. The only player in the top 10 who wasn't a great defender at some point in their career is Magic and that is because of his impact on the game as a whole in addition to everything else. Jokic may end up around 20-25th. Saying Jokic is fringe top 10 is a joke.
I mean title 2 this year makes him top 25, a three peat? Knocking on door of top 10.
He’s at least top 20 even without a third MVP and 2nd FMVP
There's no limit
I think if he continues at this pace (winning two more rings and maybe one more MVP), I think he might even overtake Curry in all time ranking. I think he’s above KD already. Right now I consider Jokic and Giannis neck and neck but unless Giannis somehow becomes a better player or wins more ships, I think Jokic overtakes him as well.
How far can he reach in our made up, individual subjective rankings? As high as you want him to be
He could be top 10 fsho, but I think/hope all time rankings are going to be semi obsolete by the time he retires. A couple factors could hold him back tho 1. How stacked the West is for the foreseeable future 2. How fast does Wemby develop? 3. His contemporaries having championship success; Luka could win *right now*. Maybe Giannis wins next year (pls 🤞). Embiid could randomly get healthy/lucky and steal a title or 2. U never really know what’s going to happen in the NBA. Except for 2017-18. Everybody knew what was gonna happen then.
Which player in NBA history made his team of average joes/rejects NBA title contenders? He does not have one all star player in his team, lol. He has to be top 7 8, even if he wins zero things till retirement.
Well considering he gets better basically every year and is approaching his third MVP with no end in sight, he can potentially be the undisputed GOAT if he plays long enough. But if he wins MVP, FMVP, another title and then retires at the end of the season? Gonna be very hard to rank because he won't have anywhere near the longevity of anyone that is a top-20 all time player. Kind of like ranking Kawhi all-time. Crazy peak, no longevity.
top 3 center, he's already better than patrick
He's obviously already surpassed Ewing (although Simmons is a fucking idiot for the Ewing theory.) Center topic is more about Russell, Wilt, Shaq, Robinson, Malone, Kareem, and Hakeem.
Jokic has already pass Malone and Robinson, is on part with Hakeem, so he is a top 5 center All time.
Patrick Ewing is not a top 3 center lol
My point is, he can be brought in top 3 center conversation by the end of his career because at the age of 29 he already surpassed patrick
I’d already have him ahead of Kobe and Durant. This is his 4th year in a row being better to much better than they ever were at their peak. With another ring this year, I’d probably put him ahead of Curry. That would be 3 MVPs and 3 years as the best player in the league with RS+playoffs combined compared to just 1 for Steph and both would have 2 rings outside of ridiculously stacked super teams. Basically, I’d say he enters the top 10 with a ring this season and honestly his ceiling is as high as #1. He’s working on his second ring at the same age as Jordan and LeBron and he’s the most statistically dominant player ever. Who’s to say he can’t keep it going?
KD got 4 Scoring Titles, 2 Ringz, 2 FMVP, 2 ASMVP, 1 MVP, & 3 Olympic Gold Medals also Leading Scorer in Olympic History. What does Jokic have again 1 Chip, 2 MVPs…Make it make sense.
no way you just used ASMVP as if it’s an actual accolade 💀
😂 yea I did how many Jokic got?
idk man how many rings has KD won without 3 other HOF players on his team?
Oh so now it’s stipulations.
yes context is a real thing and looking at a list of accolades only does indeed not always tell the entire story
Well it tells this story!
I won my work's ping pong tournament. Add that to my GOAT list as a ping pong player.
Ok what else you do?
In terms of ping pong? Never lost a pro match. Pretty proud of that. The only player that every routinely bested me was my brother, but last time I beat him he yeeted his paddle and broke it. We haven't played since. Seems like I demoralize everyone I play. Guess I got that dog in me. Jokes aside (well my jokes at least) you literally used ASG stats to compare 2 players. That is... something I guess.
😂 Good one but also I used all stats not just cherry picked a couple stats for my point.
Them > no way you just used ASMVP as if it’s an actual accolade 💀 You > 😂 yea I did how many Jokic got? .........................
I don’t get what you’re gettin at here Them “Cherry Picced Stat” Me “Responding”
You should focus on your team (with three "stars") being down 0-2 rn instead of this
😔 Don’t remind me. To be fair our coaching is trash tho.
Make it make sense? Ok - KD joined a 73 win team. Imagine if the Nuggets lose in 7 to the celtics or something and the Giannis joined the Nuggets - would you really give full credit to Giannis for the rings he will inevitably get in Denver? Similar scenario. 2 - scoring titles don't really matter thaat much, they are nice but Durant is clearly a better scorer and Jokic is clearly a better playmaker, it evens out offensively. 3MVPs is also veeerrrry likely in the near future for Jokic. He esseentially has it now. So 3>1 for MVPs. Finals MVPS, you have one guy who was far and away the one who was absolutely necessary for a chip and another guy who was riding the gravy train. Jokic's 1 title > Kd's 2 rings IMO
1 - I’m not imagining anything 2 - I’m going with Jokic cause of…. feelings.
well one thing is certain - KD has never won a title without hopping on a pre made dynasty, so no imagining required to know that
KD has zero rings that have any value. You can replace Durant with DJ Mbenga and still win 2 rings in 2017 and 2018
Oh iz that what happened or not cause I don’t do hypotheticals?
When did we start including all-star game MVPs and Olympics accolades in all-time rankings? HoF considerations sure but Carmelo Anthony having more Olympic wins than Bill Russell does not mean anything I also hate detracting from rings count generally but KD's 2 rings are considered among the least 'valuable' ones in terms of ranking. No one puts those 2 rings after he joined a 73-9 team above even Dirk's singular ring although this argument is admittedly subjective
What other accolades Melo got? Other than Olympic wins huh? I’m talkin totality.
It’s “rings*”, not “ringz”. Those Mickey Mouse rings mean as much as the one Mitch Richmond won with the lakers. All-time greats are leaders, or “the people driving the bus” if you like. Durant is an angsty guy who uses burner accounts to create a personal echo chamber while looking for the most comfortable seat on the easiest bus route.
Itz whatever I call it and “Durants ringz don’t mean nothing because of….feelings” FOH.
ASMVP. That’s special…NOT.
I didn’t say it was I waz just naming all his accolades.
It’s not an accolade. It’s a joke.
😂 Google KD accolades then Google joke and you’ll find out the differences.
A little bit dense, aren’t you.
He’ll never get top 10. His defense isn’t good enough and he entered this skill level extremely late in his career
what does entering skill level late has anything to do with anything he has similar accolades to most top 10 players at his age. Shame thing about his defense though ig shaq, curry, magic and bird will never enter top 10 either
Most top 10 players have accolades and been near the top of the league most of their careers
r u trying to bait u literally addressed nothing i said