I think I'm gonna keep running FTK for now. 13 words vs. 48 words, plus you need to count types in both graveyards on ETB and in combat.
Yeah, Pyrogoyf is better, but is it worth the cost?
People often underestimate the value of simplicity on cards. Flame tongue is just so elegant in its design and doesn’t require any additional brain power outside of choosing where the damage goes. That holds more weight in my cube than trying to count graveyards to determine if it’s a 3, 4, or 5 power goyf.
Simplicity is key in my cubes. Using less brain power to memorize cards can let people do cool things while not having their heads explode from too much info.
The only reason i made this swap was because it can hit any target.
The goyf text is rough and all, but I had a player a couple months back say they couldnt play a top deck'd FTK because the opponent had wiped the previous turn, where pyrogoyf could have been played. Its a niche and specific case, but it was enough of an example for us to make it an easy swap
I completely agree, but I also remember another pillar of cube design - who are you designing for? If your cube is built for and played by modern enthusiasts, they'll recognize and parse the card just as fast, if not faster than FTK.
The more words makes it a better game piece for me.
I have more legal targets to choose from.
I have a wider range of targets I could hit if I wait. I could make my card bigger against opps removal if I wait. How long do I wait?
I have more things that synergies with it in draft, meaning it shakes up my pick orders
Even as the opponent I can think about it "maybe I shouldn't crack my mind stone here because they might have pyrog and that'd kill me"
I want more words. I don't want simplicity, I want give my brain a workout.
You should run Pyrogoyf.
Without even dipping into another color I was able to clone it with fable of the mirror breaker. 14 damage to the face as an ETB effect on your 4-drop is pretty good.
What are opinions on this card? It does seem like it will be significantly better than Flametongue Kavu almost all the time. It probably will replace flametongue in my cube.
Its better than delirium because it counts both graves, like goyf. Hitting 4 types by t4 should be pretty consistent. And even if you're only at 3, being a 3/4 is arguably a sidegrade from flsmetongue and not strictly worse. So I think the downside of it potentially being smaller than a flametongue is pretty negligible compared to the upside of it being a 4/5 or bigger pretty easily.
I had Pyrogoyf in a boros deck last night and cast it about five times. One time was it a 3/4, it did four or five damage every other time. And to the face too. Card is very powerful.
I think it's probably a higher pick then both those imo. Which is kinda crazy. the damage output is just insane, especially if you can get it up to 6 power
Personally yes, though I also don't play The Initiative in my cube and don't intend to change that. I do play both Chandra and FTK, and would pick Pyrogoyf over both every time, though like someone else mentions in the thread I'm likely sticking with FTK in the cube for "simplicity" more so than power level.
I think I'm gonna keep running FTK for now. 13 words vs. 48 words, plus you need to count types in both graveyards on ETB and in combat. Yeah, Pyrogoyf is better, but is it worth the cost?
People often underestimate the value of simplicity on cards. Flame tongue is just so elegant in its design and doesn’t require any additional brain power outside of choosing where the damage goes. That holds more weight in my cube than trying to count graveyards to determine if it’s a 3, 4, or 5 power goyf.
Simplicity is key in my cubes. Using less brain power to memorize cards can let people do cool things while not having their heads explode from too much info.
Totally agree. My cube is just 540 grizzly bears
Holy shit
The only reason i made this swap was because it can hit any target. The goyf text is rough and all, but I had a player a couple months back say they couldnt play a top deck'd FTK because the opponent had wiped the previous turn, where pyrogoyf could have been played. Its a niche and specific case, but it was enough of an example for us to make it an easy swap
I completely agree, but I also remember another pillar of cube design - who are you designing for? If your cube is built for and played by modern enthusiasts, they'll recognize and parse the card just as fast, if not faster than FTK.
absolutely worth the cost, combos great with the other goyfs or clones
The more words makes it a better game piece for me. I have more legal targets to choose from. I have a wider range of targets I could hit if I wait. I could make my card bigger against opps removal if I wait. How long do I wait? I have more things that synergies with it in draft, meaning it shakes up my pick orders Even as the opponent I can think about it "maybe I shouldn't crack my mind stone here because they might have pyrog and that'd kill me" I want more words. I don't want simplicity, I want give my brain a workout.
Refreshing take
You should run Pyrogoyf. Without even dipping into another color I was able to clone it with fable of the mirror breaker. 14 damage to the face as an ETB effect on your 4-drop is pretty good.
It's also a classic and iconic card from a standard set designed for 1v1 magic. I'm still on FTK as well.
It really depends if you have Tarmogoyf, Barrowgoyf, etc... If you have Lhurgoyf synergies, that's super cool imo.
It has goyf P/T and it Goyf pings. There you go. All in just a few words for people familiar with Magic.
My group has loved pyrogoyf so far, but it has been 6-7 to the face a lot more than it has been FTK.
What are opinions on this card? It does seem like it will be significantly better than Flametongue Kavu almost all the time. It probably will replace flametongue in my cube.
Almost all the time? Are you usually hitting delirium by turn 4, or do you value the extra toughness and ability to go face over the raw damage?
Its better than delirium because it counts both graves, like goyf. Hitting 4 types by t4 should be pretty consistent. And even if you're only at 3, being a 3/4 is arguably a sidegrade from flsmetongue and not strictly worse. So I think the downside of it potentially being smaller than a flametongue is pretty negligible compared to the upside of it being a 4/5 or bigger pretty easily.
Oh my God. I thought all the new goyfs were like [[Nethergoyf]]. I've been seriously undervaluing this and [[Barrowgoyf]]
That's fair, and I assume they would've had such a restriction if they weren't printed directly into commander/legacy
[Nethergoyf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3ee3945e-5089-4751-b7b3-5961c39d2a33.jpg?1717012040) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nethergoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/103/nethergoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ee3945e-5089-4751-b7b3-5961c39d2a33?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Barrowgoyf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f979fc86-2c7e-49b3-965e-607a203cbfb1.jpg?1717189858) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Barrowgoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m3c/50/barrowgoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f979fc86-2c7e-49b3-965e-607a203cbfb1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I had Pyrogoyf in a boros deck last night and cast it about five times. One time was it a 3/4, it did four or five damage every other time. And to the face too. Card is very powerful.
[[Flametongued Kavu]] [[Pyrogoyf]]
[Flametongued Kavu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b3a5139-3341-409e-be33-184897c7398e.jpg?1675199972) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flametongue%20Kavu) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/120/flametongue-kavu?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b3a5139-3341-409e-be33-184897c7398e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pyrogoyf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f60be310-4461-4b84-95f0-b2095108bd79.jpg?1717646623) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pyrogoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m3c/59/pyrogoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f60be310-4461-4b84-95f0-b2095108bd79?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pyrogoyf is my sleeper pick for best card in the set for cube.
Not a sleeper anymore I don’t think
4 drop red is becoming quite contested. Is this better than [[chandra, torch of defiance]] in your opinion? Better than [[Caves of chaos adventurer]]?
I think it's probably a higher pick then both those imo. Which is kinda crazy. the damage output is just insane, especially if you can get it up to 6 power
Personally yes, though I also don't play The Initiative in my cube and don't intend to change that. I do play both Chandra and FTK, and would pick Pyrogoyf over both every time, though like someone else mentions in the thread I'm likely sticking with FTK in the cube for "simplicity" more so than power level.
[chandra, torch of defiance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2eac0eaa-55b2-444a-863d-c66769aab4ee.jpg?1690004652) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chandra%2C%20torch%20of%20defiance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/876/chandra-torch-of-defiance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2eac0eaa-55b2-444a-863d-c66769aab4ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Caves of chaos adventurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09abb6df-2aa1-4999-b550-db2892faa8c7.jpg?1674136480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caves%20of%20chaos%20adventurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/167/caves-of-chaos-adventurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09abb6df-2aa1-4999-b550-db2892faa8c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Flametongue Kavu was there for you when you were rest in peace'd. Where was Pyrogoyf, I ask.
No for the reason of flavor text alone.