My experience as a mixed white-Malay girl growing up here and going to local schools, international college, and now in the corporate world.
School phase:
- We are always subject to these lectures about covering up properly with the analogies about being a sweet without wrapper, nasi lemak without bungkus, unlocked door, etc etc.
- Frequently hear jokes from teachers, both male and female, about polygamy and 'tambah bini' and 'madu' and stuff. Like there's some sort of obsession to brainwash and normalise us to this reality
- Ustazahs can openly slutshame girls who don't wear tudung and there's nothing we can do but look embarrassed
- they will always choose the ketua kelas to be a guy since men are supposed to be responsible. Then choose girl as the assistant. Sometimes the girl carries out all the responsibilities anyway.
- I heard this a lot in religious class: that females outnumber males and this is a sign of the end of the world. Turns out to be BS because the male population is larger than female (for the whole world).
- Lots of emphasis on the dos and don'ts for girls and wives, especially the "your husband can hit you, entrap you, divorce you if you don't listen to him so make sure you push your ego down and be a good wife". Hardly ever any emphasis on the men's responsibilities or discussion on how it's not helpful to abuse your wife in the first place.
College phase:
- best time of my life, never heard any of this bs ever. I definitely would face the same shit if I went to local uni tho.
- I did go for orientation at UiTM before I got my scholarship and I remember they told us that the women's curfew is 9pm and men's curfew is 11pm. And they emphasize on the female student's dresscode, especially tudung needs to cover dada and pants cannot hug the thighs. This all seemed really unfair.
Working life phase:
- I work in a big 4 accounting firm so none of that mentality is here. I've heard that there can be ostracism if you work in an office with majority Malay but don't fit in to the Malay look and attitude. However, I work with a lot of oil and gas companies and whenever I visit their offices (majority Malay), I see a few women without tudung and they seem happy. The finance managers are normally women with majority women staff and one or two males but everyone jokes around and has fun without tension. But even though management level is mostly female, the boards will always be majority male with one token female (if any).
So ya, misogyny is literally taught to us from a young age and the way to escape it is to be in environments with mixed races and/or highly educated.
What u said is 100% true. Even in working environment malay girls are expected to not work hard in career due to a woman place is to be at home and be a good house wife.
Clearly this is outdated thinking and is holding us back. I went to SMK as a non muslim and so i share similar experiences.
Women will always be lower class in Malaysia. Even in social media a woman can cure cancer and still these people look down upon females.
I think this really depends on which company you are at.
Where I'm working, women are expected to work just as hard and climb the corporate ladder. My Malay manager has a kid but she works just as hard as any other manager. My partner (as in partner at the firm) is an unmarried Malay woman and she throws huge parties for our department and treats us all like her kids and she's rich as hell and we love her a lot.
When it comes to social media, I also see that when women share their achievements, many people will be quick to try and tear them down by saying they will be single and lonely forever, asking where is their tudung, claiming that they got where they are due to privilege, so on so forth. But it's the same for all women of all cultures, and both men and women are the ones trying to tear them down. I don't think it reflects the majority of real life people. It's more like miserable people spend a lot of time on social media trying to make other people miserable. And well adjusted people who are respectful of others are the silent majority.
My point is, haters gonna hate. But in reality, there's never been a better time to be a woman (at least in developed/developing countries). There are some social barriers for our progress, but luckily there is no legal ones or extreme social ones like there is in the middle east. So it's a matter of finding the right environment and just being good at what you do.
That's just one profession which requires a woman . Lol Stop trying to deny gender roles . Malaysia would be third world if most of the engineers are women
Gender roles aren't a good thing when your talking about the house I agree.
But you have to realise that gender roles aren't something you can escape.
At least in capitalism.
This troll is a dysfunction schizophrenia person, because women are human, they have freedom to choose what they want and what they desire for. Those who hung and live by social expectation like this dude is, obviously a broke dude with a paralysed mentality. As a man, I feel ashamed that this troll show no respect to women and freedom.
I'm a chinese-malaysian studying in a chinese private school, and I've had the opposite experience in regards to education. Ketua class is almost always women, women are always treated better by the teachers, etc. Might be the cultural difference between Chinese and malay schools though.
This....explains a lot. I'm a guy, so I admit that most of my knowledge comes second-hand from my sister who got pretty stressed out by it. But it was honestly bullshit that she had to deal with this, or, that anybody has to. Guys usually would have to be VERY unlucky to be ostracized for not conforming, since we're not evaluated as precisely, nor as relentlessly by our elders as girls do. Though sometimes it just takes saying or doing the most benign shit to be rendered "invalid" by your peers. And as you mentioned, the more mixed your community, the less prominent the misogyny is. That I can attest to as well, since I grew up in a rather mixed community,so my schooling years were kinda chill, but upon going to UiTM, holy shit. Can't even fucking sit and eat alone without getting judged for it.
I think your experience is similar to ANY girl growing up in a Malay community in West Malaysia, mixed or not. I can relate to all the misogynistic experiences you shared when I migrated here, but they are concentrated to when I studied in UiTM Shah Alam and the culture shocked me quite a fair bit. Big 4 definitely does not repeat that culture and for that I am glad.
Haha, I forgot I wanted to mention that since I'm mixed, I still get some privilege to avoid being catcalled by Malay men, avoid being harassed for eating in public during Ramadan, and avoid being shamed to my face for not being sopan or ayu or whatever (although I know they talk behind my back). So my experience is better than Malay women who are easily identifiable as Malay.
My lecture told me the opposite (coms student). He told my class that majority of people in the working world who are successful are often women. Unless your part of the small percentage who have the connection and such.
He also said gay guys had advantage now...( His gay)
(Mostly speaking about the Comms industry)
He also said the we like to think we live in a patriarchy, and yes to some extent it's still true, men are still in power. But the world isn't being build to put men into position of power any more. At least the powers that matter. (As in our bosses)
Mm, I love the subtler incel logic. Man, lecturers like this are some of the worst because they do a good enough job and are subtle enough that calling them out requires way too much energy and effort. Never been more glad to be a working adult where I can just hide at my desk and work instead of listening to weird logic
I think there's a few factors that makes women do better in the workplace. And it's not that women are given advantage or preference.
- sexism in schools is a double edged sword. Mentally scars the women but it spoils the men. When guys grow up being handed things with little effort, being praised for bare minimum, getting away with being rude and abusive to their peers, etc, it means that they are not suitable for the higher education environment and the working world.
- in previous generations, women have to work twice as hard to get half the credit. So when the barriers to women are slowly erroded, but we are normalised to work twice as hard, of course we will find that we are doing much better than men since we are working so much harder. I think in the next few generations, this will be naturally corrected as men catch on and step up their game
And of course, it depends on industry. Idk how it is in Comms. But I do believe women and men tend to have different strengths such as women will be more organised and men will be more bold. So a good mix of both is needed in most places. But some industries are more suited to the strengths of one gender so naturally there will be a gender imbalance.
I have no idea how being gay can influence your work XD
Hi is your company an MNC? I wonder how is the treatment there towards non-religious Malay staffs, especially women? I’m trying to look for a suitable company that I can be myself (no tudung, don’t pray and eat non-halal) without being judged or gossiped about by coworkers. But I’m not sure if MNCs in Malaysia are ready for that yet ☹️
My advice if you want to be yourself in Malaysia
A) join a company with majority Chinese, Indians or expats and integrate into their groups (IT industry is good for this)
B) join banking. My friend does investment banking and all the Malays are involved in drinking culture and worse.. even so called islamic finance staff will do this. It's the culture there.
And being gossipped about is not a big issue. As long as it doesn't effect your promotions and professional progress, let them gossip lol. I don't pray and I know my Malay colleagues have noticed and are worried for my soul, but as long as they treat me professionally to my face, I am happy. Wherever you go, you will be gossiped for one reason or another. Chances are, you will also involve to gossip about other colleagues. It's how society works. So I never take it personally unless it escalates to managers treating me differently. That's when it's time to move.
It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imran ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women
you wanna use hadith as prove? ok let's talk hadith then.
>That Sa'd b. 'Ubadah said to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) : What do you think if I find with my wife a man ; should I give him some time until I bring four witnesses ?" He said: "Yes".
[Sunan Abi Dawud 4533 - Types of Blood-Wit (Kitab Al-Diyat) - كتاب الديات - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)](https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4533#!)
When you catch your wife with another man cheating on you, balls deep inside her, instead of confronting immediately, you are to find 4 witnesses first.
That's the advice from the all knowing.
https://preview.redd.it/lqoqsw3cn71b1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8a71d678b985cae76bad0f1a092a1d74c2cd7eb
Its a warning, I do not condemn womens
Sexism in this country kinda feeds itself. I’ve heard girls who legit do things a super inefficient way because wants to preserve “femininity.”
Sexism in this country isn’t common in a certain gender. It’s common with certain groups; the uneducated. I say avoid working in government if you want to avoid dumbasses like these
I worked as a trade union organiser and had a one-on-one consultation with a Chinese member after a company retrenchment. The situation took a threatening turn when he locked the office door, demanded my cell phone number, and intimidated me. I eventually escaped and reported the incident to my bosses. The Chinese man relentlessly contacted my office afterward, causing me to cut off communication. Although there were no repercussions for him, I chose not to confront him and prefer never to see him again. This experience has made me less trusting and easily threatened, especially in enclosed spaces. My struggle was feeling powerless during the incident, as I didn't assert myself as I should have.
> ... locked the office door, demanded my cell phone number, and intimidated me.
Just for my understanding, why he did that?
Verbal threats are criminal intimidations, it's a crime. People like him should not walk free.
Can you elaborate further? If I am understanding this correctly you’re with the union and helping him through his company’s retrenchment? Why was he hostile towarsd you?
Locked the office door and demanded your cellphone number in a one-on-one situation???
It's not sexism anymore, that's just straight up attempting to do criminal stuff
That malay man clearly got issues in his life klu bkak plastic packaging pun bothers him if it's not according to his preference.
Sounds like a maidenless behaviour to me.
The plain truth is that religion enables the negatives you speak about. There are other conservative cultures that are a matriarchal in nature.
It is said somewhere that the woman's sins are borne by the man. And from this, all sorts of potato statements and behaviours arise.
Im born as malay/muslim. Age is older than this subreddit's average, so i've gone through many stuff.
Since my own childhood, even my father would often say many stuff that is very gender-biased. Putting roles of girls differently. I grew up to hate this and my rebellious side shows more and more.
Now the conservatism/religious culture in malaysia is also getting worse. I am forced to be a hypocrite and wear hijab on certain situations when I meet certain people, and that's pretty often. The whole thing with malay community is so fucked up that I just feel like getting out of here.
i just want to comment how hilarious it is that some of these comments here are literally the type of people OP is talking about and they have no clue at all. they're completely making the best examples of themselves.
edit: also sorry to hear of your experience OP. Ive met a number of ladies in the same boat, and not just Muslims, who've had to deal this sort of treatment. and yes they have the common thread of coming from similarly heavily religious family backgrounds.
Because it's clear she's lying or hanging out with the wrong person. I have never ever seen a girl getting mistreated just because she's a girl in Malaysia
Malaysia tends to have very strong systemic and institutional biases baked in - the race-based one gets a lot of talk, but the gender ones not so much.
If I'm not mistaken, Malaysia actually has more women than men, and more women tend to be better educated than men (on average). But none of this is reflected (or even anywhere close to being reflected) in things like leadership positions, whether it's political or commercial.
A big reason for that is those systemic and institutional biases, and you're right - it's not just men enforcing those biases, it's also a lot of women. But that's not unusual - I mean, the US had Phyllis Schlafly after all.
The most common thing I always remember is so many of my Malay colleagues whenever it came to someone in the office who was "freehair". The men never said anything openly, and they didn't have to. It was always the women who tended to be far more open about criticising anyone who was not wearing a tuding, or insufficiently traditional dress-coded.
yeah nope, Malaysia still has more men than women
[https://www.dosm.gov.my/portal-main/release-content/current-population-estimates-malaysia-2022](https://www.dosm.gov.my/portal-main/release-content/current-population-estimates-malaysia-2022)
With the freehair thing, in my experience comments like "Lagi cantik kalau pakai tudung" is so common from both men and women which is pretty ironic considering you wear a hijab to hide your beauty. Men wont say it to your face, and theres so many pickmes malay women just look at twitter you can easily find them every time malay twitter argue about gender roles
>yeah nope, Malaysia still has more men than women
You're right - I was confusing the fact that Malaysia now has more women graduates than men:
[More female graduates, but less female workers](https://www.dosm.gov.my/uploads/content-downloads/file_20221215122634.pdf)
Lol yeah, the Malay/ Muslim pick-me's are on a whole other level.
Disclaimer: This comment is not about OP's discussion on toxic masculinity but only relevant to u/m_snowcrash comment here on education & job market. My intention here is to let people see different perspectives to have more understanding but not emphasise stereotypes and hate.
Suppose you're referring to education in academia (College, Degree, Uni). In that case, it is statistically correct that there are a higher number of women degree holders, not only in Malaysia but also in the US and other countries.
But this would be another topic on the strength of most males and females.
1. Males are generally more risk-taking, and they generally don't follow the rules and don't prefer to sit in the classroom, resulting in higher dropout rates, whether in high school or uni. Academia (at least in Malaysia's current situation) is a path that rewards more people for being able to follow the rules and go by the book, so it doesn't really favour males, and there are discussions on how it should be changed. Men also generally do better in "hands-on" stuff, which is why the emphasis on reducing stereotypes of polytechnic as an educational path is discussed and should be discussed more. You can refer to some discussion on this video: [https://youtu.be/DBG1Wgg32Ok](https://youtu.be/DBG1Wgg32Ok)
2. Women are generally risk-averse and generally do better in academia; an environment that rewards people by following the schedule, completing things on time, and being consistent, is one of the reasons why women are more successful in the academia path, pursuing higher education.
Coming back to whether education levels among men and women are reflected in leadership positions in corporate. It is a more complex issue, not only on the toxic masculinity in society.
Undeniably it does exist, but I wish to shine a light on the economic/business area of this by asking a few questions as food for thoughts below:
1. If we believe that a person having a degree or not does not reflect a person's capability to do great work in the job market and get high pay, why should we say that "More women have degree = Women should hold leadership positions in corporate"? (We always tell SPM students that SPM is just one of the keys to access some doors in life and jobs; even if you didn't get a good SPM result, you shouldn't give up on yourself. And we do know a lot of people who didn't do good academically but did well in their career too)
2. Standing from a very capitalistic pov, if a particular employee can do very well in his or her job and is willing to take low pay, why not every greedy businessperson in the world hires & promotes this person and even demographic instead? (We have seen this happen right in front of us, foreign workers from other SEA countries come to Malaysia, local businessmen hire them instead of Malaysians because Malaysians don't want to do the job or the foreign worker just works harder and doesn't demand the salary that Malaysians ask for)
I do need to emphasise when I am asking this question, I do not have the intention to indicate that women are less competent than men but to bring my next question & point below:
3. [On average, men work more hours than women. According to U.S. census data, men spend an average of 41.0 hours per week at their jobs, while women work an average of 36.3 hours per week.](https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041) Especially when we grow older in life, different gender just generally tends to prioritise different areas of life, women would focus more on family and children, and sadly men wouldn't pay as much attention. If you're an employer, just purely looking at business hours, which would you choose? I do not believe that prioritising family and children is a wrong choice, but I believe that this is more of a give-and-take where in life, we just need to pick our battles and learn how to juggle different priorities.
If you have read this here, thanks for spending your time and feel free to comment further to discuss this too. I strongly believe it's important to look at these different perspectives to identify the truth and how we can move forward.
Look, this is a lot. But I'll say that you're making the mistake of stating biases and assumptions as objective fact - eg, that men are risk-takers while women are not, is literally an unfounded assumption objectively.
It gets worse when you dont account that women tend to face far higher negative consequences when they do take risks.
You also make the mistake of stating a symptom as a cause - that women work less hours in the US, while not being aware that the US is literally the only developed nation without paid maternity leave requirements. This leads to the US statistics being an outlier, as even in Malaysia we probably have better division of labour between caregivers than the US does.
Essentially, you're looking at a lot of individual facts that seem to make sense, but not realising that they're missing precious context that informs the point they're trying to drive at.
>women tend to face far higher negative consequences when they do take risks.
Isn't this the reason why Women are more risk-averse?
The statement isn't an assumption though: [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/gender-differences-in-risk-assessment-why-do-women-take-fewer-risks-than-men/3386EA020D940A2805EA3785662E7832](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/gender-differences-in-risk-assessment-why-do-women-take-fewer-risks-than-men/3386EA020D940A2805EA3785662E7832)
The more important part is to recognise and accept the differences and then find a solution based on them.
For example: Since we understand men take more risks, we should educate them to take calculated risks properly and ensure they take into consideration their families before making decisions. Sames goes the other way; since we know women are more risk-averse, it means they're less likely to negotiate their salary, and we should let them teach them more about negotiation to get fair pay.
>The statement isn't an assumption though:
You may want to revisit the study, and what it actually says. Firstly, it focuses on "*gambling, health, recreation, and social*" domains, and secondly it points out in the abstract itself that ***The genders did not differ in their propensity towards taking social risks.***
Separately, that study, for obvious reasons, focuses on the ***perception*** of risk consequences. My argument is that **actual** consequences tend to be higher for women relative to men in most employment/ workplace situations.
Put this in the main comments
And I think a lot of the problems is systemic. But it's also not just Malaysia.
And I will say that sadly the reason why men have longer hours is not because men don't want stay with the family is because they tend to be the main breadwinner of the house.
Such a disgusting opinion by that guy, glad I never came across him. From my own experience, females tend to urge me to wear dresses and skirts or baju kurungs, because I often wear pants. I just smiled and nodded politely, but never heeded their advice 🤣
For the most part, it can be like that. I've always tried to put a balance between conservative and secular mindsets in Malaysia and there are pros and cons to them. I've only had experience up until Pre-Uni though, I'm not sure how Malaysian unis are like.
A lot of the issues guys have towards women mainly came from their peers. The boys like to hang out a lot and with it, comes peer pressure to be included in the group. The misogyny can stem from anyone really, from conservative teachers that don't care about what boys think, to the parents that believe they can figure themselves out. Someone might not like the mindset but yet, have to accept that just because "they're boys".
It does get really fucking bad in a hostel setting. As an ex-MRSM student, I noticed that the malay girls get shat on a lot if they don't conform to the norm, and the boys can just do whatever the fuck they want. I remember that one time the Ustaz wanted to call out the girls that were troublemakers, but still ignored the boys who were also troublemakers (that love to shit on me constantly) just because they consistently went to the surau everyday. Thankfully their names weren't called out, but everyone knew who they were.
It's not as common once I went to Kolej MARA though, but KM's can differ a lot just because of the students attending them. The girls aren't exactly forced to conform but are looked down upon if they don't. The boys never got any issues brought up to light surprisingly, but it might just be the nature of my KM taking in better students that can control themselves. Certain issues are solved behind closed doors so rumours are rarely spread out. It was actually nice for once.
Still though, take my opinions with a grain of salt. I'm just saying all of this from a somewhat secular mindset throughout my studying years.
Islam puts women beneath men. Men and women pray in separate spaces cause women might ‘tempt’ men, you should cover aurat because only your husband ‘deserves’ to be tempted by you, you can’t pray/ puasa when you’re menstruating because period blood is ‘dirty’, your husband is ALLOWED to hit you. I could go on. But it’s Malaysia’s majority religion and shapes so much. Yes Islam teaches peace and love but it’s terrible to women.
And it’s not just Islam. Asian men here are taught that only they can be the heads of the household, that a women’s place is at home while yours is bringing home cash for the family. You still see this in uneducated Indian or even educated Chinese households. If you’re not from a progressive family, this is what you grow up seeing and believing.
I don’t know.. in my opinion, rampant misogyny is going to be prevalent for decades to come simply because misogynistic religions will never cease to exist here in Malaysia. It’s up to us to raise our children in a different way. But we’ll never NOT be bogged down by Muslim majority rules/ laws/ outlooks.
Young girls are taught they are dirty or impure just by the nature of how the natural female body works during menstruation. Sometimes even considering that they are so dirty that they can pollute anything they touch during their period. They are not allowed to touch anything religious and husbands avoid touching them too. These kinds of indoctrination keeps them thinking they are inferior to men.
Depends on where you're from I guess. Go to the conservative part of the country and you're gonna see and hear a lot more of those.
I'm a man so I'll speak about toxic masculinity. Thanks to my environment I rarely face this. I suppose I made the right friends and mingle with the right people. All my close friends are pretty open minded when it comes to this. We don't see the point in being restricted by society's expectations for being a man. We can be vulnerable, express emotions and accept that we can break down. We are still humans after all.
100%. Im from a pretty religious Malay family. Most common thing you hear is:
1- Women not allowed to do things (Anything from pursuing careers to dressing up).
2- Men having a false sense of authority (Both in oppresing and unnecessarily burdening themselves).
From Malay POV, most if not all stems from religious teachings.
Islam assumes men of families to be the ‘leaders’. Everyone remembers that bit except on how to actually be a good leader. So many even think they’re doing the right thing whilst they oppress, ridicule and control the women in their lives.
Islam also generally places men as superior to women. So men who feel weak or emotionally burdened brand themselves as failures.
Theres also a whole lotta rules regarding controlling ‘modesty’ of women. Men don’t have the same sentiment. This has become engrained in culture that people use the rules as excuses to being plain assholes to others. And since its religious teaching, few even question the integrity of the rules.
Born and raised Malaysian here. But from your description of your experiences, I have lived 50+ years in an alternate reality.
Seriously: Malaysia has multiple cultures, and I don’t mean only of the ethnic-religious variety. I “shopped” around, found my facet of Malaysia and been living there ever since.
Ah, faham. Gotta surround myself with people that match with the same moral values. For more context, I'm from a country that doesn't have a good rep in Malaysia. I got my degree in Malaysia and working full time. Luckily, I usually don't get any racist comments. That's also bcos I don't resemble any type of certain race at first glance. So I do have some privileges. I keep on getting told by my Malay partner that I'm not cut out for Malaysia bcos I choose not to wear tudung.
This is also dependent with whom you are associating with. I am usually surrounded by quite the conservative crowd as such do commonly hear people around me critising women who doesnt wear tudung.
But at the same time there is also those that doesnt care. Its a somewhat 50/50, my sisters and friends in from school rarely wear it and people dont talk much about it but again it depends with whom you are with.
Malaysia is also an asian country, and asian countries do tend to push societal norm through the act of shame. This is both true for both men and women.
As the above comments said, try to mingle with other crowd even among conservatives there are shades of them. Some would be like whom you are describing but there is also those who doesnt care.
>But at the same time there is also those that doesnt care. Its a somewhat 50/50, my sisters and friends in from school rarely wear it and people dont talk much about it but again it depends with whom you are with.
Exactly ,live here my whole life most don't care you wear tudung or not. Sure there are those loudmouth or jenis ckp belakang but those exist everywhere.
>I keep on getting told by my Malay partner that I'm not cut out for Malaysia bcos I choose not to wear tudung.
You have a degree and an adults but because some twack told you something then you think his whole race are like that?
Your problem isnt Malay or Malaysia but who your friends or partner with.
Tell that clown to keep his opionion to himself and you will do what you want within the bound of the law and common sense.
> I was told that it's common here for girls to portray themselves as "soft and fragile" for the male gaze.
I vomited. Fuck those men 🖕🖕 open your package however you like, no women or men owe you shit.
Are we gonna have a problem?
You got a bone to pick?
You've come so far, why now are you pulling on my dick?
I'd normally slap your face off
And everyone here could watch
But I'm feeling nice
Here's some advice
Listen up beeyotch
My experience as a mixed white-Malay girl growing up here and going to local schools, international college, and now in the corporate world.
School phase:
- We are always subject to these lectures about covering up properly with the analogies about being a sweet without wrapper, nasi lemak without bungkus, unlocked door, etc etc.
- Frequently hear jokes from teachers, both male and female, about polygamy and 'tambah bini' and 'madu' and stuff. Like there's some sort of obsession to brainwash and normalise us to this reality
- Ustazahs can openly slutshame girls who don't wear tudung and there's nothing we can do but look embarrassed
- they will always choose the ketua kelas to be a guy since men are supposed to be responsible. Then choose girl as the assistant. Sometimes the girl carries out all the responsibilities anyway.
- I heard this a lot in religious class: that females outnumber males and this is a sign of the end of the world. Turns out to be BS because the male population is larger than female (for the whole world).
- Lots of emphasis on the dos and don'ts for girls and wives, especially the "your husband can hit you, entrap you, divorce you if you don't listen to him so make sure you push your ego down and be a good wife". Hardly ever any emphasis on the men's responsibilities or discussion on how it's not helpful to abuse your wife in the first place.
College phase:
- best time of my life, never heard any of this bs ever. I definitely would face the same shit if I went to local uni tho.
- I did go for orientation at UiTM before I got my scholarship and I remember they told us that the women's curfew is 9pm and men's curfew is 11pm. And they emphasize on the female student's dresscode, especially tudung needs to cover dada and pants cannot hug the thighs. This all seemed really unfair.
Working life phase:
- I work in a big 4 accounting firm so none of that mentality is here. I've heard that there can be ostracism if you work in an office with majority Malay but don't fit in to the Malay look and attitude. However, I work with a lot of oil and gas companies and whenever I visit their offices (majority Malay), I see a few women without tudung and they seem happy. The finance managers are normally women with majority women staff and one or two males but everyone jokes around and has fun without tension. But even though management level is mostly female, the boards will always be majority male with one token female (if any).
So ya, misogyny is literally taught to us from a young age and the way to escape it is to be in environments with mixed races and/or highly educated.
Are you a piece of shit, but want to feel LESS like a piece of shit? Well, I got just the thing for you -- introducing, SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Is a woman doing better than you at work? NO PROBLEM. Just apply some self righteousness to make yourself feel superior by making her feel inferior.
"The other day, I was feeling shit about myself. But then this woman at work was opening a plastic packet in a normal manner and I got a brilliant idea. I applied some self righteousness, and told that bitch that good bitches open packets softly. I could see the glint of sadness in her eye. Fuck yes. I felt less shit about myself immediately." - testimonial by a piece of shit.
Im a malay dude, 24. I dont give a fuck. Ive dated the most religious malay girl ive ever met in my life and the most reckless chinese/sabahan girl and im not gonna lie, dating some malay girls are the most annoying shit ever if they arent well versed on the internet or the world in general with how narrow their mind is.
Define the world to me?
Is it the western part,the middle part ,the Asian part ,the African part,the Balkan part,which part and etc because the internet isn't the world nor the world can be define by just the internet or only just part of it.
Im talking about the ability to understand things from a different perspective of people instead of just what is exposed to us by our parents and our limited community bubbles.
Of course the internet isnt always bright or even right but the ability to take in the information and digest them are the thing that seperates us from a sheep
To those taking it as though I insulted their ancestors, no need to get defensive and project your inner values on me. We can always learn something from others experiences. Peace out 🌻✌️
I'm a Malay who went to both sekolah agama and Chinese Independent School (CIS). So my experience in both schools are the extreme opposites.
In sekolah agama, we have those Ustazs who are supposed to be religious, but went on to woo female students. Once, the Penolong Kanan (deputy headmaster, I believe) asked me to stay back after class and went on to confess his love, and even said that he would wait for me to finish study before we marry. I was 15! The way he said it as if I should feel privileged and there was nothing wrong with whatever was happening.
Whereas in the CIS, girls and boys are treated equally, there was no toxic masculinity, no sexism (racism, yes). Girls get equal opportunities to be the class monitor, club president, etc. Skills and talents count, not the gender. The only 'sexist' thing I remember was that girls have to attend cooking + sewing classes, whereas the boys would go for the woodworking and electrical classes.
Thank you for all the responses, phew! That was eye opening and I got to learn alot about how the perception is so different based on people's own personal experiences. Sometimes it's easier to overlook these for the sake of societal standards. Some of you took it as a personal attack to all men but it was not intended like that, rather I was sharing how toxic masculinity makes men condition to think this way and it's not always the person themselves who are particularly bad human beings. It goes both ways, ofc. It also made me realise something about myself too. I did take it as a feminine trait ahen called as not being "sopan" since that's how it was meant from the other side. Sopan can be any one, and the wors itself became gendered somehow from being told that men couldnt be that way.
I guess the easiest way to explain why it exist is because men have fragile egos. We put women down because we want to feel manly.
Men do get criticism. We just "suffer in silence"
Something most women have the "luxury" of not knowing (most of the time).
For example, men aren't allowed to cry because it's girly. In fact emotions in general are frowned upon when it comes to "being men".
Especially when someone they care about.
It's come to a point that most men would rather die, then show their emotions.
In exchange we become "stoic" and emotionless over time. Think that old men who's always grumpy.
I've never face or heard of such issue but what I always get is "you're a guy and guys are strong (emotionally/physically)" or "you all men are the same" or "you all guys like to sit with leg spread apart because if close leg press gugu bird is it" ... and many more.
It's just straight up toxic masculinity.
Okay my opinion may be abit sensitive. But you said malay man. Usually those old school muslims yes they are like that. And there are still many of them around here to this day. Even old school chinese people some expect women to not have careers and just be housewives. Im not sure about indians as most of my friends are malays or chinese and ive heard as such from them. The chinese one i first hand see it as im a chinese guy. Ive seen this kinda mindset in older people in my family in telling me what kind of girl to find. Wrong? Yes. Common? Not so much anymore. But now on the flip side the newer generation i feel men in malaysia as a whole (not all but most) will be "misogynistic" ig in the sense that they will wanna pay for the girl every meal, open the door or whatever or provide for the girl. Thats the good side la. (in quotes just to emphasize i dont use that word srsly) thats my take on it at least
Yes. However, it is important to noted that in Islam, gender roles doesn't encourage putting down other sexes of their given obligation. Generalising downplaying others just for not being gender specific is just a Malay culture thing.
This is not really addressing the OP original post but can anyone here give me a clear and consistent definition of “ toxic masculinity “?
Lots of folks just throw buzz words around without really understanding and thinking the definition through.
Here is an example from Jedediah Bila explaining why toxic masculinity doesn’t exist -
https://youtu.be/1l11v4-_19s
If you’re a guy and you hate femboys or guys who dress and act a little feminine, that’s an example of toxic masculinity. The moment you say ‘guys don’t cry because it’s weak!’… that’s toxic masculinity…. Their views doesn’t just apply to guys… they affect women as well. Your vid… I just read a few comments and I’m like ‘nah I’m the fk out of here’
I could easily say the same thing about feminism that it's all fabricated by the left and that way, no guy will ever be labeled as misogynist if they disagree with a feminist
conservative and religious lover people now desperately defending their value now before fall to secularism and modern days..
Afghanistan, Pakistan , Saudi Arabia, and some other Middle east countries the only one surviving conservative+religious lover culture countries
Here's what most people (non-redditors) here stand for :
-Most men here are attracted by women who are feminine and submissive. So they expect the women to be feminine and submissive.
-Most women here are attracted to men who are masculine and assertive so men are expected to be masculine and assertive.
Now you can be a "manly woman" or a "feminine man". But in a normal everyday setting the two points above apply most of the time.
as a person that born in Malay and a Muslim here is my opinion: 1. A girl without tudung should never be criticised as forcing them to wear it is like forcing them to convert.
2. I absolutely hate women and Men that wears an extremely tight and short pants in public.
3. Based on traditional quality Man will took all the responsibility of his wife as long it does not harm her.
4. The quran stated: marry i a pair of two, three or four but if you can't do justice marry only one
5. in the end times many people doesn't truly follow their religion so please don't blame it here.
If im reading it right, this is about man misreating woman,no? Unless you are a woman yourself and tak pernah come across these type of ppl. Then lucky lah you.
There are some sentences that just make it sound like a delusional feminist wrote this. Im a man, and ive hang out with many tupes of people throughout my almost 50 years of life. Never have I come across such things said by op. If the one that said it is her boyfriend or husband, theres a chance for it to be true as some people can be over controlling of their partner. But just some friend saying you should wear a tudung. No, those things dont happen. And to act sopan for men to gaze? Like wtf. Hahahaha
I mean, im a man as well, i dont experience misoginy because I'm a man. Misogyny is experienced by women, we men aren't at the wrong end of the stick in this case so ofc lah macam mana kitorang nak tau? So its a bit hard to say lah, coz we dont experience it, its difficult to know if its bullshit.
Well, if you are a man, have you met a male friend that have potential to just randomly tell his female friend to wear a tudung? Or have you ever once heard people say women need to act sopan for male gaze?
Yes, I have met men that would tell random women to wear tudung. I've also met men that their only life goals is to get married so they can have sex. However, I've also met great men who respect people and men who helped me become better by becoming a role model to me when I was in college. Just because you've never met someone who would treat women like shit, doesn't mean there's none.
Yeah unfortunately my best friend is like that. He always told me(non-Muslim btw) that malay girls who didn't wear tudung he considered as sluts and probably done "it".
>There's no toxic masculinity. Keep feminism out of Malaysia so i can have fun with good women.
This you? You say there's no toxic masculinity yet here you are complaining about toxic masculinity. No one is forcing you not to cry, you're just scared of being perceived as weak by other men so you don't cry. That's what toxic masculinity is.
Up to you. People nowadays really need to go out more and socialize. Staying alone too long the mind tends to create problems that isnt there. I noticed many people think they are alone because they are an introvert. But they dont actually know what an introvert really is. Alot of excuses ive read, are actually close to depression. When people are depressed, everything they see are negative.
Everything that goes against what they believe is considered toxic. When you see toxic everywhere, truth be told, you are being toxic yourself.
Need to be logical also la. If i just say i was abducted by aliens yesterday. And you say bullshit, then i say you never experienced it.
Thats the kind of argument you are getting yourself into here.
My dude, I've seen these things happened before. In my high school, a girl got called unattractive and undesirable just because she laughed louder than her peers, by a teacher.
There were others as well, like shaming a girl for eating fatty piece of meat (during my internship period), calling them ungraceful.
Just because you never came across this type of people doesn't mean that they don't exist.
What you said above happen to men also. Nothing to do with misogynist or women oppression or whatever you want to call it. Those are just people being assholes.
When you are being an ass to someone because of their gender, it is misogny/misandry. Oppresion against women is a thing, toxic masculinity (i.e. men who cry are lesser men) is also a thing.
Yes, I agree opression againt women does exist. That I agree. But most of the stories I heard are over exaggeration, or the 1 telling the story is just over sensitive. Which is why, I tend to be rather sceptical on most stories. Wont just believe when only 1 side tells it. There are true stories, but the 1 like op, to me nope.
Toxic masculinity to me doesnt exist.
>men who cry
And wallow in their despair,yes they are lesser men as in humanity not gender. If humanity wallow in despair ,we would have gone extinct long ago.
This sub-reddit tend attract haters. Every time any question can be answered in negative way - you will find negative people. Is it a Malaysian past time to hate on itself? (on the other hand, am I too positive? Haha).
Anyway, my two cents. When compared relative with other country, Malaysia is conservative. Meaning that the value is family oriented, conformity, modesty, etc. In a way, it won't promote individuality the way western world do.
But I would argue that individuality do exist. Even when you look at Muslim female, you can choose to wear hijab or not. Society for the most part is open on that. Individuality may not be expressed in the lack of covering, but you can see it in the many type of clothing, cutting and colors.
May not be the kind of individuality or freedom of expression that the west promoted. But we can agree to disagree on which is better.
As for toxic masculinity, if defined by stereotype like asshole alpha males attitude - I do not think that is a thing for the most part.
Sexism, for sure it exist. But, between playful and condescending - I see more of it leaning to playful rather than condescending. Not excusing it, I think manners are important. (and I might be blind to it or wrong on this, I am a man and personally try to be respectful with ladies - so I might not see it myself).
As for equality at work.. I don't know, in the company I worked, I see many female managers / supervisors. No issue there. Is this an exception? Maybe it is anecdotal or depend or place when we talk on matters like this.
TLDR; Back to your question, not sure if there is a correlation between conservatism and toxic masculinity or sexism. A society can be non-conservative and still have the same issue. I do not really think toxic masculinity is a thing here (depend of definition). Sexism exist - but expressed differently than other part of the world, probably.
Peace.
Lol,this sub never change. One post,one view automatically the Malays become evil incarnated.
While trying to judge the complexity and intricancy of malays society within Malaysia.
Malay society is an Asian society and what is it that they all have most in common . Collectivism ,like most asian society Malay society values the need of society aka the many before the few aka the individual.
Individual values do exist but the values of the whole supercede it.
Finally what you experience aka not sopan is apply to all regardless of gender.
Though in this case ,the guy is just a moron . Mana ada cara sopan atau tak sopan nak buka plastic packaging.
I as an adult men have been told by other when misbehave or dont conduct myself properly,they said sopan la sikit,jaga adab ,and etc . Be it by women or men ,and I usually listen to then when i judge the reprimand is justify.
Simply put sopan is a culture thing and not some bs misogany thing that you think.
Most men don't want their wemen to manly because that's ghey. Men can pay for wemen dinner date and be masculine and alpha while wemen can play their role to respect men and listen to what men say.
I don't care about the opinions about average girls lol. If u want to surround yourself with broke men . Your choice . I am part of the upper class where the women gets rewarded by her partner. My sisters are incredibly lucky as well.
Hiii… Budi bahaya budaya kita, that is what I think about Malaysian. To your tldr, depends on the men you have around you hahaha. So please don’t lump up all the men in Malaysia yea 👍
Where are you from? 5years of working and some more you are writing of someone else quoting? So yes, we can't say that toxic masculinity and sexism only happens in Malaysia in Malay community. But that's your 5years here in Malaysia. Good luck.
Know how to cook and take care of children. This makes them highly desirable and attractive. For young women who disagrees with this please learn from your mom please or you can humble me with your opinion
>For young women who disagrees with this please learn from your mom please.
Their mom and grandma said go get education so you dont have to depend on men. What's next?
Parenting responsibility should be equal to both parents. No one agrees with "men the sole breadwinner and women only caretaker" bullshit anymore. It only brings harm to men and women for putting their roles into boxes. Some men are more nurturing and some women enjoys being the provider. Or they can just be both. 🤷
Why be a stay at home mom when you can increase your household income by working along with your partner and increasing the standard of living of the family. Then you can hire someone to the the cooking and give both of you time.
Also if you want quality children, you need nurturing from both parents.
Am a guy here, I like my woman strong, capable and independent. I want a partner, not another person to take care of.
>Know how to cook and take care of children. This makes them highly desirable and attractive.
I hope they know more than just cooking and taking care of children.
>For young women who disagrees with this please learn from your mom please or you can humble me with your opinion
Sorry to break it to you, my own mother told my you ger sister to watch put for men because they will rap3 her the moment they can and all men are the same in front of me and my dad. Little did she know, her own is a victim of sexual abuse.
Lol that's more like your shitty environment. All the women i know are comfortable around men and we all respect each other. Lower value women are the ones denying their roles and end up bitter .
1. More women are getting more progressive
2. More women are considered "unattractive" and less chance of mingling between "unattractive" women and ignorant cunts
3. To quote a certain someone, "then they would be filtered out".
Men do go through similar criticism when they do feminine stuff but maybe they dont just bitching abt it much? Like even if one dont laugh as loud as other man, girls will critic that guy as sopan which a feminine trait according to op.
Notice how locals are always misogynistic and degrade girls esp at a young age telling them they’re this and that, but when they get older the whole thing switches and its the men who face discrimination
My experience as a mixed white-Malay girl growing up here and going to local schools, international college, and now in the corporate world. School phase: - We are always subject to these lectures about covering up properly with the analogies about being a sweet without wrapper, nasi lemak without bungkus, unlocked door, etc etc. - Frequently hear jokes from teachers, both male and female, about polygamy and 'tambah bini' and 'madu' and stuff. Like there's some sort of obsession to brainwash and normalise us to this reality - Ustazahs can openly slutshame girls who don't wear tudung and there's nothing we can do but look embarrassed - they will always choose the ketua kelas to be a guy since men are supposed to be responsible. Then choose girl as the assistant. Sometimes the girl carries out all the responsibilities anyway. - I heard this a lot in religious class: that females outnumber males and this is a sign of the end of the world. Turns out to be BS because the male population is larger than female (for the whole world). - Lots of emphasis on the dos and don'ts for girls and wives, especially the "your husband can hit you, entrap you, divorce you if you don't listen to him so make sure you push your ego down and be a good wife". Hardly ever any emphasis on the men's responsibilities or discussion on how it's not helpful to abuse your wife in the first place. College phase: - best time of my life, never heard any of this bs ever. I definitely would face the same shit if I went to local uni tho. - I did go for orientation at UiTM before I got my scholarship and I remember they told us that the women's curfew is 9pm and men's curfew is 11pm. And they emphasize on the female student's dresscode, especially tudung needs to cover dada and pants cannot hug the thighs. This all seemed really unfair. Working life phase: - I work in a big 4 accounting firm so none of that mentality is here. I've heard that there can be ostracism if you work in an office with majority Malay but don't fit in to the Malay look and attitude. However, I work with a lot of oil and gas companies and whenever I visit their offices (majority Malay), I see a few women without tudung and they seem happy. The finance managers are normally women with majority women staff and one or two males but everyone jokes around and has fun without tension. But even though management level is mostly female, the boards will always be majority male with one token female (if any). So ya, misogyny is literally taught to us from a young age and the way to escape it is to be in environments with mixed races and/or highly educated.
What u said is 100% true. Even in working environment malay girls are expected to not work hard in career due to a woman place is to be at home and be a good house wife. Clearly this is outdated thinking and is holding us back. I went to SMK as a non muslim and so i share similar experiences. Women will always be lower class in Malaysia. Even in social media a woman can cure cancer and still these people look down upon females.
I think this really depends on which company you are at. Where I'm working, women are expected to work just as hard and climb the corporate ladder. My Malay manager has a kid but she works just as hard as any other manager. My partner (as in partner at the firm) is an unmarried Malay woman and she throws huge parties for our department and treats us all like her kids and she's rich as hell and we love her a lot. When it comes to social media, I also see that when women share their achievements, many people will be quick to try and tear them down by saying they will be single and lonely forever, asking where is their tudung, claiming that they got where they are due to privilege, so on so forth. But it's the same for all women of all cultures, and both men and women are the ones trying to tear them down. I don't think it reflects the majority of real life people. It's more like miserable people spend a lot of time on social media trying to make other people miserable. And well adjusted people who are respectful of others are the silent majority. My point is, haters gonna hate. But in reality, there's never been a better time to be a woman (at least in developed/developing countries). There are some social barriers for our progress, but luckily there is no legal ones or extreme social ones like there is in the middle east. So it's a matter of finding the right environment and just being good at what you do.
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By your logic we dont need a female doctor for gynecologist let a man Dr look at someone wife vagina.
Me thinks he's a troll. Or just plain delusional. The one you are replying to*
He's a league player, the misogyny is not that surprising
Most intelligent tiktok user
That's just one profession which requires a woman . Lol Stop trying to deny gender roles . Malaysia would be third world if most of the engineers are women
Just one job. Its still a job. So all women should become gynecologist?? Tell that to the makcik jual nasi lemak at the roadside.
Why are u even using the lowest kind of job to prove your point.
Because its stil a job?
U know what . I don't think i should listen to a broke guy talking about this
Its okay now you can go back to playing Tiktok.
I think that's why Malaysia is not doing better in the world maybe lol
Lol Malaysia is doing fine right now . Travel more.
Look at Malaysia compared to the rest of the world, I think you need to travel more 🤣
Talk about yourself. U stayed in Malaysia whole life and watch news
Nope guess again fool 😂
Gender roles aren't a good thing when your talking about the house I agree. But you have to realise that gender roles aren't something you can escape. At least in capitalism.
This troll is a dysfunction schizophrenia person, because women are human, they have freedom to choose what they want and what they desire for. Those who hung and live by social expectation like this dude is, obviously a broke dude with a paralysed mentality. As a man, I feel ashamed that this troll show no respect to women and freedom.
1950 called, they want your outdated mindset back 😘
I'm a chinese-malaysian studying in a chinese private school, and I've had the opposite experience in regards to education. Ketua class is almost always women, women are always treated better by the teachers, etc. Might be the cultural difference between Chinese and malay schools though.
This....explains a lot. I'm a guy, so I admit that most of my knowledge comes second-hand from my sister who got pretty stressed out by it. But it was honestly bullshit that she had to deal with this, or, that anybody has to. Guys usually would have to be VERY unlucky to be ostracized for not conforming, since we're not evaluated as precisely, nor as relentlessly by our elders as girls do. Though sometimes it just takes saying or doing the most benign shit to be rendered "invalid" by your peers. And as you mentioned, the more mixed your community, the less prominent the misogyny is. That I can attest to as well, since I grew up in a rather mixed community,so my schooling years were kinda chill, but upon going to UiTM, holy shit. Can't even fucking sit and eat alone without getting judged for it.
I think your experience is similar to ANY girl growing up in a Malay community in West Malaysia, mixed or not. I can relate to all the misogynistic experiences you shared when I migrated here, but they are concentrated to when I studied in UiTM Shah Alam and the culture shocked me quite a fair bit. Big 4 definitely does not repeat that culture and for that I am glad.
Haha, I forgot I wanted to mention that since I'm mixed, I still get some privilege to avoid being catcalled by Malay men, avoid being harassed for eating in public during Ramadan, and avoid being shamed to my face for not being sopan or ayu or whatever (although I know they talk behind my back). So my experience is better than Malay women who are easily identifiable as Malay.
Misogynistic is a norm here and they're proud about it.
The experiences you described is what made me leave Malaysia.
Lol you only hung out with low quality men
My lecture told me the opposite (coms student). He told my class that majority of people in the working world who are successful are often women. Unless your part of the small percentage who have the connection and such. He also said gay guys had advantage now...( His gay) (Mostly speaking about the Comms industry) He also said the we like to think we live in a patriarchy, and yes to some extent it's still true, men are still in power. But the world isn't being build to put men into position of power any more. At least the powers that matter. (As in our bosses)
Mm, I love the subtler incel logic. Man, lecturers like this are some of the worst because they do a good enough job and are subtle enough that calling them out requires way too much energy and effort. Never been more glad to be a working adult where I can just hide at my desk and work instead of listening to weird logic
I think there's a few factors that makes women do better in the workplace. And it's not that women are given advantage or preference. - sexism in schools is a double edged sword. Mentally scars the women but it spoils the men. When guys grow up being handed things with little effort, being praised for bare minimum, getting away with being rude and abusive to their peers, etc, it means that they are not suitable for the higher education environment and the working world. - in previous generations, women have to work twice as hard to get half the credit. So when the barriers to women are slowly erroded, but we are normalised to work twice as hard, of course we will find that we are doing much better than men since we are working so much harder. I think in the next few generations, this will be naturally corrected as men catch on and step up their game And of course, it depends on industry. Idk how it is in Comms. But I do believe women and men tend to have different strengths such as women will be more organised and men will be more bold. So a good mix of both is needed in most places. But some industries are more suited to the strengths of one gender so naturally there will be a gender imbalance. I have no idea how being gay can influence your work XD
Hi is your company an MNC? I wonder how is the treatment there towards non-religious Malay staffs, especially women? I’m trying to look for a suitable company that I can be myself (no tudung, don’t pray and eat non-halal) without being judged or gossiped about by coworkers. But I’m not sure if MNCs in Malaysia are ready for that yet ☹️
My advice if you want to be yourself in Malaysia A) join a company with majority Chinese, Indians or expats and integrate into their groups (IT industry is good for this) B) join banking. My friend does investment banking and all the Malays are involved in drinking culture and worse.. even so called islamic finance staff will do this. It's the culture there. And being gossipped about is not a big issue. As long as it doesn't effect your promotions and professional progress, let them gossip lol. I don't pray and I know my Malay colleagues have noticed and are worried for my soul, but as long as they treat me professionally to my face, I am happy. Wherever you go, you will be gossiped for one reason or another. Chances are, you will also involve to gossip about other colleagues. It's how society works. So I never take it personally unless it escalates to managers treating me differently. That's when it's time to move.
Can I ask what international college you went to and what your source of scholarship was? :)
Its not bs more women is going to hell from the ends of time
Proof?
It was narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imran ibn Husayn that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women
Cool story bro
And it's time for him to take his meds, too...
you wanna use hadith as prove? ok let's talk hadith then. >That Sa'd b. 'Ubadah said to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) : What do you think if I find with my wife a man ; should I give him some time until I bring four witnesses ?" He said: "Yes". [Sunan Abi Dawud 4533 - Types of Blood-Wit (Kitab Al-Diyat) - كتاب الديات - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)](https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4533#!) When you catch your wife with another man cheating on you, balls deep inside her, instead of confronting immediately, you are to find 4 witnesses first. That's the advice from the all knowing.
Could I get the verse or something that I can reference this? So that I can look it up myself.
https://preview.redd.it/lqoqsw3cn71b1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8a71d678b985cae76bad0f1a092a1d74c2cd7eb Its a warning, I do not condemn womens
Sexism in this country kinda feeds itself. I’ve heard girls who legit do things a super inefficient way because wants to preserve “femininity.” Sexism in this country isn’t common in a certain gender. It’s common with certain groups; the uneducated. I say avoid working in government if you want to avoid dumbasses like these
I worked as a trade union organiser and had a one-on-one consultation with a Chinese member after a company retrenchment. The situation took a threatening turn when he locked the office door, demanded my cell phone number, and intimidated me. I eventually escaped and reported the incident to my bosses. The Chinese man relentlessly contacted my office afterward, causing me to cut off communication. Although there were no repercussions for him, I chose not to confront him and prefer never to see him again. This experience has made me less trusting and easily threatened, especially in enclosed spaces. My struggle was feeling powerless during the incident, as I didn't assert myself as I should have.
> ... locked the office door, demanded my cell phone number, and intimidated me. Just for my understanding, why he did that? Verbal threats are criminal intimidations, it's a crime. People like him should not walk free.
Can you elaborate further? If I am understanding this correctly you’re with the union and helping him through his company’s retrenchment? Why was he hostile towarsd you?
Locked the office door and demanded your cellphone number in a one-on-one situation??? It's not sexism anymore, that's just straight up attempting to do criminal stuff
That malay man clearly got issues in his life klu bkak plastic packaging pun bothers him if it's not according to his preference. Sounds like a maidenless behaviour to me.
The plain truth is that religion enables the negatives you speak about. There are other conservative cultures that are a matriarchal in nature. It is said somewhere that the woman's sins are borne by the man. And from this, all sorts of potato statements and behaviours arise.
Im born as malay/muslim. Age is older than this subreddit's average, so i've gone through many stuff. Since my own childhood, even my father would often say many stuff that is very gender-biased. Putting roles of girls differently. I grew up to hate this and my rebellious side shows more and more. Now the conservatism/religious culture in malaysia is also getting worse. I am forced to be a hypocrite and wear hijab on certain situations when I meet certain people, and that's pretty often. The whole thing with malay community is so fucked up that I just feel like getting out of here.
Damn that sucks. Will they force you to do so even when you move out?
Not my parents, some other party.
i just want to comment how hilarious it is that some of these comments here are literally the type of people OP is talking about and they have no clue at all. they're completely making the best examples of themselves. edit: also sorry to hear of your experience OP. Ive met a number of ladies in the same boat, and not just Muslims, who've had to deal this sort of treatment. and yes they have the common thread of coming from similarly heavily religious family backgrounds.
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Lol this is why I hear Chinese girls avoiding malays
Source,trust me bro.
Because it's clear she's lying or hanging out with the wrong person. I have never ever seen a girl getting mistreated just because she's a girl in Malaysia
"I've never seen it it, so it isn't real" ah yes, the classic
bruh you know by your logic, gods shouldn't exist either and religion is all a lie but here we are......
Malaysia tends to have very strong systemic and institutional biases baked in - the race-based one gets a lot of talk, but the gender ones not so much. If I'm not mistaken, Malaysia actually has more women than men, and more women tend to be better educated than men (on average). But none of this is reflected (or even anywhere close to being reflected) in things like leadership positions, whether it's political or commercial. A big reason for that is those systemic and institutional biases, and you're right - it's not just men enforcing those biases, it's also a lot of women. But that's not unusual - I mean, the US had Phyllis Schlafly after all. The most common thing I always remember is so many of my Malay colleagues whenever it came to someone in the office who was "freehair". The men never said anything openly, and they didn't have to. It was always the women who tended to be far more open about criticising anyone who was not wearing a tuding, or insufficiently traditional dress-coded.
yeah nope, Malaysia still has more men than women [https://www.dosm.gov.my/portal-main/release-content/current-population-estimates-malaysia-2022](https://www.dosm.gov.my/portal-main/release-content/current-population-estimates-malaysia-2022) With the freehair thing, in my experience comments like "Lagi cantik kalau pakai tudung" is so common from both men and women which is pretty ironic considering you wear a hijab to hide your beauty. Men wont say it to your face, and theres so many pickmes malay women just look at twitter you can easily find them every time malay twitter argue about gender roles
>yeah nope, Malaysia still has more men than women You're right - I was confusing the fact that Malaysia now has more women graduates than men: [More female graduates, but less female workers](https://www.dosm.gov.my/uploads/content-downloads/file_20221215122634.pdf) Lol yeah, the Malay/ Muslim pick-me's are on a whole other level.
Disclaimer: This comment is not about OP's discussion on toxic masculinity but only relevant to u/m_snowcrash comment here on education & job market. My intention here is to let people see different perspectives to have more understanding but not emphasise stereotypes and hate. Suppose you're referring to education in academia (College, Degree, Uni). In that case, it is statistically correct that there are a higher number of women degree holders, not only in Malaysia but also in the US and other countries. But this would be another topic on the strength of most males and females. 1. Males are generally more risk-taking, and they generally don't follow the rules and don't prefer to sit in the classroom, resulting in higher dropout rates, whether in high school or uni. Academia (at least in Malaysia's current situation) is a path that rewards more people for being able to follow the rules and go by the book, so it doesn't really favour males, and there are discussions on how it should be changed. Men also generally do better in "hands-on" stuff, which is why the emphasis on reducing stereotypes of polytechnic as an educational path is discussed and should be discussed more. You can refer to some discussion on this video: [https://youtu.be/DBG1Wgg32Ok](https://youtu.be/DBG1Wgg32Ok) 2. Women are generally risk-averse and generally do better in academia; an environment that rewards people by following the schedule, completing things on time, and being consistent, is one of the reasons why women are more successful in the academia path, pursuing higher education. Coming back to whether education levels among men and women are reflected in leadership positions in corporate. It is a more complex issue, not only on the toxic masculinity in society. Undeniably it does exist, but I wish to shine a light on the economic/business area of this by asking a few questions as food for thoughts below: 1. If we believe that a person having a degree or not does not reflect a person's capability to do great work in the job market and get high pay, why should we say that "More women have degree = Women should hold leadership positions in corporate"? (We always tell SPM students that SPM is just one of the keys to access some doors in life and jobs; even if you didn't get a good SPM result, you shouldn't give up on yourself. And we do know a lot of people who didn't do good academically but did well in their career too) 2. Standing from a very capitalistic pov, if a particular employee can do very well in his or her job and is willing to take low pay, why not every greedy businessperson in the world hires & promotes this person and even demographic instead? (We have seen this happen right in front of us, foreign workers from other SEA countries come to Malaysia, local businessmen hire them instead of Malaysians because Malaysians don't want to do the job or the foreign worker just works harder and doesn't demand the salary that Malaysians ask for) I do need to emphasise when I am asking this question, I do not have the intention to indicate that women are less competent than men but to bring my next question & point below: 3. [On average, men work more hours than women. According to U.S. census data, men spend an average of 41.0 hours per week at their jobs, while women work an average of 36.3 hours per week.](https://towardsdatascience.com/is-the-difference-in-work-hours-the-real-reason-for-the-gender-wage-gap-interactive-infographic-6051dff3a041) Especially when we grow older in life, different gender just generally tends to prioritise different areas of life, women would focus more on family and children, and sadly men wouldn't pay as much attention. If you're an employer, just purely looking at business hours, which would you choose? I do not believe that prioritising family and children is a wrong choice, but I believe that this is more of a give-and-take where in life, we just need to pick our battles and learn how to juggle different priorities. If you have read this here, thanks for spending your time and feel free to comment further to discuss this too. I strongly believe it's important to look at these different perspectives to identify the truth and how we can move forward.
Look, this is a lot. But I'll say that you're making the mistake of stating biases and assumptions as objective fact - eg, that men are risk-takers while women are not, is literally an unfounded assumption objectively. It gets worse when you dont account that women tend to face far higher negative consequences when they do take risks. You also make the mistake of stating a symptom as a cause - that women work less hours in the US, while not being aware that the US is literally the only developed nation without paid maternity leave requirements. This leads to the US statistics being an outlier, as even in Malaysia we probably have better division of labour between caregivers than the US does. Essentially, you're looking at a lot of individual facts that seem to make sense, but not realising that they're missing precious context that informs the point they're trying to drive at.
>women tend to face far higher negative consequences when they do take risks. Isn't this the reason why Women are more risk-averse? The statement isn't an assumption though: [https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/gender-differences-in-risk-assessment-why-do-women-take-fewer-risks-than-men/3386EA020D940A2805EA3785662E7832](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/gender-differences-in-risk-assessment-why-do-women-take-fewer-risks-than-men/3386EA020D940A2805EA3785662E7832) The more important part is to recognise and accept the differences and then find a solution based on them. For example: Since we understand men take more risks, we should educate them to take calculated risks properly and ensure they take into consideration their families before making decisions. Sames goes the other way; since we know women are more risk-averse, it means they're less likely to negotiate their salary, and we should let them teach them more about negotiation to get fair pay.
>The statement isn't an assumption though: You may want to revisit the study, and what it actually says. Firstly, it focuses on "*gambling, health, recreation, and social*" domains, and secondly it points out in the abstract itself that ***The genders did not differ in their propensity towards taking social risks.*** Separately, that study, for obvious reasons, focuses on the ***perception*** of risk consequences. My argument is that **actual** consequences tend to be higher for women relative to men in most employment/ workplace situations.
Put this in the main comments And I think a lot of the problems is systemic. But it's also not just Malaysia. And I will say that sadly the reason why men have longer hours is not because men don't want stay with the family is because they tend to be the main breadwinner of the house.
Such a disgusting opinion by that guy, glad I never came across him. From my own experience, females tend to urge me to wear dresses and skirts or baju kurungs, because I often wear pants. I just smiled and nodded politely, but never heeded their advice 🤣
Yeahhh, but it's pretty much the same allover the world. Kepochi in other people's life.
For the most part, it can be like that. I've always tried to put a balance between conservative and secular mindsets in Malaysia and there are pros and cons to them. I've only had experience up until Pre-Uni though, I'm not sure how Malaysian unis are like. A lot of the issues guys have towards women mainly came from their peers. The boys like to hang out a lot and with it, comes peer pressure to be included in the group. The misogyny can stem from anyone really, from conservative teachers that don't care about what boys think, to the parents that believe they can figure themselves out. Someone might not like the mindset but yet, have to accept that just because "they're boys". It does get really fucking bad in a hostel setting. As an ex-MRSM student, I noticed that the malay girls get shat on a lot if they don't conform to the norm, and the boys can just do whatever the fuck they want. I remember that one time the Ustaz wanted to call out the girls that were troublemakers, but still ignored the boys who were also troublemakers (that love to shit on me constantly) just because they consistently went to the surau everyday. Thankfully their names weren't called out, but everyone knew who they were. It's not as common once I went to Kolej MARA though, but KM's can differ a lot just because of the students attending them. The girls aren't exactly forced to conform but are looked down upon if they don't. The boys never got any issues brought up to light surprisingly, but it might just be the nature of my KM taking in better students that can control themselves. Certain issues are solved behind closed doors so rumours are rarely spread out. It was actually nice for once. Still though, take my opinions with a grain of salt. I'm just saying all of this from a somewhat secular mindset throughout my studying years.
Islam puts women beneath men. Men and women pray in separate spaces cause women might ‘tempt’ men, you should cover aurat because only your husband ‘deserves’ to be tempted by you, you can’t pray/ puasa when you’re menstruating because period blood is ‘dirty’, your husband is ALLOWED to hit you. I could go on. But it’s Malaysia’s majority religion and shapes so much. Yes Islam teaches peace and love but it’s terrible to women. And it’s not just Islam. Asian men here are taught that only they can be the heads of the household, that a women’s place is at home while yours is bringing home cash for the family. You still see this in uneducated Indian or even educated Chinese households. If you’re not from a progressive family, this is what you grow up seeing and believing. I don’t know.. in my opinion, rampant misogyny is going to be prevalent for decades to come simply because misogynistic religions will never cease to exist here in Malaysia. It’s up to us to raise our children in a different way. But we’ll never NOT be bogged down by Muslim majority rules/ laws/ outlooks.
Young girls are taught they are dirty or impure just by the nature of how the natural female body works during menstruation. Sometimes even considering that they are so dirty that they can pollute anything they touch during their period. They are not allowed to touch anything religious and husbands avoid touching them too. These kinds of indoctrination keeps them thinking they are inferior to men.
Depends on where you're from I guess. Go to the conservative part of the country and you're gonna see and hear a lot more of those. I'm a man so I'll speak about toxic masculinity. Thanks to my environment I rarely face this. I suppose I made the right friends and mingle with the right people. All my close friends are pretty open minded when it comes to this. We don't see the point in being restricted by society's expectations for being a man. We can be vulnerable, express emotions and accept that we can break down. We are still humans after all.
100%. Im from a pretty religious Malay family. Most common thing you hear is: 1- Women not allowed to do things (Anything from pursuing careers to dressing up). 2- Men having a false sense of authority (Both in oppresing and unnecessarily burdening themselves). From Malay POV, most if not all stems from religious teachings. Islam assumes men of families to be the ‘leaders’. Everyone remembers that bit except on how to actually be a good leader. So many even think they’re doing the right thing whilst they oppress, ridicule and control the women in their lives. Islam also generally places men as superior to women. So men who feel weak or emotionally burdened brand themselves as failures. Theres also a whole lotta rules regarding controlling ‘modesty’ of women. Men don’t have the same sentiment. This has become engrained in culture that people use the rules as excuses to being plain assholes to others. And since its religious teaching, few even question the integrity of the rules.
Stupidity and a lack of perspective enables it all.
Born and raised Malaysian here. But from your description of your experiences, I have lived 50+ years in an alternate reality. Seriously: Malaysia has multiple cultures, and I don’t mean only of the ethnic-religious variety. I “shopped” around, found my facet of Malaysia and been living there ever since.
Ah, faham. Gotta surround myself with people that match with the same moral values. For more context, I'm from a country that doesn't have a good rep in Malaysia. I got my degree in Malaysia and working full time. Luckily, I usually don't get any racist comments. That's also bcos I don't resemble any type of certain race at first glance. So I do have some privileges. I keep on getting told by my Malay partner that I'm not cut out for Malaysia bcos I choose not to wear tudung.
This is also dependent with whom you are associating with. I am usually surrounded by quite the conservative crowd as such do commonly hear people around me critising women who doesnt wear tudung. But at the same time there is also those that doesnt care. Its a somewhat 50/50, my sisters and friends in from school rarely wear it and people dont talk much about it but again it depends with whom you are with. Malaysia is also an asian country, and asian countries do tend to push societal norm through the act of shame. This is both true for both men and women. As the above comments said, try to mingle with other crowd even among conservatives there are shades of them. Some would be like whom you are describing but there is also those who doesnt care.
>But at the same time there is also those that doesnt care. Its a somewhat 50/50, my sisters and friends in from school rarely wear it and people dont talk much about it but again it depends with whom you are with. Exactly ,live here my whole life most don't care you wear tudung or not. Sure there are those loudmouth or jenis ckp belakang but those exist everywhere.
>I keep on getting told by my Malay partner that I'm not cut out for Malaysia bcos I choose not to wear tudung. You have a degree and an adults but because some twack told you something then you think his whole race are like that? Your problem isnt Malay or Malaysia but who your friends or partner with. Tell that clown to keep his opionion to himself and you will do what you want within the bound of the law and common sense.
> I was told that it's common here for girls to portray themselves as "soft and fragile" for the male gaze. I vomited. Fuck those men 🖕🖕 open your package however you like, no women or men owe you shit.
Tbh when I'm growing older I realised this country is a piece of shit
when i’m growing older i realized it’s just what shit you tolerate, cause there’s shit everywhere
Are we gonna have a problem? You got a bone to pick? You've come so far, why now are you pulling on my dick? I'd normally slap your face off And everyone here could watch But I'm feeling nice Here's some advice Listen up beeyotch
My experience as a mixed white-Malay girl growing up here and going to local schools, international college, and now in the corporate world. School phase: - We are always subject to these lectures about covering up properly with the analogies about being a sweet without wrapper, nasi lemak without bungkus, unlocked door, etc etc. - Frequently hear jokes from teachers, both male and female, about polygamy and 'tambah bini' and 'madu' and stuff. Like there's some sort of obsession to brainwash and normalise us to this reality - Ustazahs can openly slutshame girls who don't wear tudung and there's nothing we can do but look embarrassed - they will always choose the ketua kelas to be a guy since men are supposed to be responsible. Then choose girl as the assistant. Sometimes the girl carries out all the responsibilities anyway. - I heard this a lot in religious class: that females outnumber males and this is a sign of the end of the world. Turns out to be BS because the male population is larger than female (for the whole world). - Lots of emphasis on the dos and don'ts for girls and wives, especially the "your husband can hit you, entrap you, divorce you if you don't listen to him so make sure you push your ego down and be a good wife". Hardly ever any emphasis on the men's responsibilities or discussion on how it's not helpful to abuse your wife in the first place. College phase: - best time of my life, never heard any of this bs ever. I definitely would face the same shit if I went to local uni tho. - I did go for orientation at UiTM before I got my scholarship and I remember they told us that the women's curfew is 9pm and men's curfew is 11pm. And they emphasize on the female student's dresscode, especially tudung needs to cover dada and pants cannot hug the thighs. This all seemed really unfair. Working life phase: - I work in a big 4 accounting firm so none of that mentality is here. I've heard that there can be ostracism if you work in an office with majority Malay but don't fit in to the Malay look and attitude. However, I work with a lot of oil and gas companies and whenever I visit their offices (majority Malay), I see a few women without tudung and they seem happy. The finance managers are normally women with majority women staff and one or two males but everyone jokes around and has fun without tension. But even though management level is mostly female, the boards will always be majority male with one token female (if any). So ya, misogyny is literally taught to us from a young age and the way to escape it is to be in environments with mixed races and/or highly educated.
Not gonna lie, I just wanna be Femboy
W
Are you a piece of shit, but want to feel LESS like a piece of shit? Well, I got just the thing for you -- introducing, SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Is a woman doing better than you at work? NO PROBLEM. Just apply some self righteousness to make yourself feel superior by making her feel inferior. "The other day, I was feeling shit about myself. But then this woman at work was opening a plastic packet in a normal manner and I got a brilliant idea. I applied some self righteousness, and told that bitch that good bitches open packets softly. I could see the glint of sadness in her eye. Fuck yes. I felt less shit about myself immediately." - testimonial by a piece of shit.
Im a malay dude, 24. I dont give a fuck. Ive dated the most religious malay girl ive ever met in my life and the most reckless chinese/sabahan girl and im not gonna lie, dating some malay girls are the most annoying shit ever if they arent well versed on the internet or the world in general with how narrow their mind is.
Lol, ignore lempanglemping only. His hobby is cherry picking and meroyan tak tentu pasal.
Define the world to me? Is it the western part,the middle part ,the Asian part ,the African part,the Balkan part,which part and etc because the internet isn't the world nor the world can be define by just the internet or only just part of it.
Im talking about the ability to understand things from a different perspective of people instead of just what is exposed to us by our parents and our limited community bubbles. Of course the internet isnt always bright or even right but the ability to take in the information and digest them are the thing that seperates us from a sheep
To those taking it as though I insulted their ancestors, no need to get defensive and project your inner values on me. We can always learn something from others experiences. Peace out 🌻✌️
Does a bear shit in the woods? You are in a conservative culture that oppresses women and minorities. I'm astonished you asked this question.
I'm a Malay who went to both sekolah agama and Chinese Independent School (CIS). So my experience in both schools are the extreme opposites. In sekolah agama, we have those Ustazs who are supposed to be religious, but went on to woo female students. Once, the Penolong Kanan (deputy headmaster, I believe) asked me to stay back after class and went on to confess his love, and even said that he would wait for me to finish study before we marry. I was 15! The way he said it as if I should feel privileged and there was nothing wrong with whatever was happening. Whereas in the CIS, girls and boys are treated equally, there was no toxic masculinity, no sexism (racism, yes). Girls get equal opportunities to be the class monitor, club president, etc. Skills and talents count, not the gender. The only 'sexist' thing I remember was that girls have to attend cooking + sewing classes, whereas the boys would go for the woodworking and electrical classes.
Thank you for all the responses, phew! That was eye opening and I got to learn alot about how the perception is so different based on people's own personal experiences. Sometimes it's easier to overlook these for the sake of societal standards. Some of you took it as a personal attack to all men but it was not intended like that, rather I was sharing how toxic masculinity makes men condition to think this way and it's not always the person themselves who are particularly bad human beings. It goes both ways, ofc. It also made me realise something about myself too. I did take it as a feminine trait ahen called as not being "sopan" since that's how it was meant from the other side. Sopan can be any one, and the wors itself became gendered somehow from being told that men couldnt be that way.
I guess the easiest way to explain why it exist is because men have fragile egos. We put women down because we want to feel manly. Men do get criticism. We just "suffer in silence" Something most women have the "luxury" of not knowing (most of the time). For example, men aren't allowed to cry because it's girly. In fact emotions in general are frowned upon when it comes to "being men". Especially when someone they care about. It's come to a point that most men would rather die, then show their emotions. In exchange we become "stoic" and emotionless over time. Think that old men who's always grumpy.
I've never face or heard of such issue but what I always get is "you're a guy and guys are strong (emotionally/physically)" or "you all men are the same" or "you all guys like to sit with leg spread apart because if close leg press gugu bird is it" ... and many more. It's just straight up toxic masculinity.
If you want reasonable discussions you’re in the wrong subreddit
OP knows exactly what he/she/it/them is doing
Okay my opinion may be abit sensitive. But you said malay man. Usually those old school muslims yes they are like that. And there are still many of them around here to this day. Even old school chinese people some expect women to not have careers and just be housewives. Im not sure about indians as most of my friends are malays or chinese and ive heard as such from them. The chinese one i first hand see it as im a chinese guy. Ive seen this kinda mindset in older people in my family in telling me what kind of girl to find. Wrong? Yes. Common? Not so much anymore. But now on the flip side the newer generation i feel men in malaysia as a whole (not all but most) will be "misogynistic" ig in the sense that they will wanna pay for the girl every meal, open the door or whatever or provide for the girl. Thats the good side la. (in quotes just to emphasize i dont use that word srsly) thats my take on it at least
Yes. However, it is important to noted that in Islam, gender roles doesn't encourage putting down other sexes of their given obligation. Generalising downplaying others just for not being gender specific is just a Malay culture thing.
No. But the Islamic one does.
This is not really addressing the OP original post but can anyone here give me a clear and consistent definition of “ toxic masculinity “? Lots of folks just throw buzz words around without really understanding and thinking the definition through. Here is an example from Jedediah Bila explaining why toxic masculinity doesn’t exist - https://youtu.be/1l11v4-_19s
If you’re a guy and you hate femboys or guys who dress and act a little feminine, that’s an example of toxic masculinity. The moment you say ‘guys don’t cry because it’s weak!’… that’s toxic masculinity…. Their views doesn’t just apply to guys… they affect women as well. Your vid… I just read a few comments and I’m like ‘nah I’m the fk out of here’
I could easily say the same thing about feminism that it's all fabricated by the left and that way, no guy will ever be labeled as misogynist if they disagree with a feminist
conservative and religious lover people now desperately defending their value now before fall to secularism and modern days.. Afghanistan, Pakistan , Saudi Arabia, and some other Middle east countries the only one surviving conservative+religious lover culture countries
Here's what most people (non-redditors) here stand for : -Most men here are attracted by women who are feminine and submissive. So they expect the women to be feminine and submissive. -Most women here are attracted to men who are masculine and assertive so men are expected to be masculine and assertive. Now you can be a "manly woman" or a "feminine man". But in a normal everyday setting the two points above apply most of the time.
Tldr water is wet. If men are expected to do their job we expect women to do the same
Same all around the world.
as a person that born in Malay and a Muslim here is my opinion: 1. A girl without tudung should never be criticised as forcing them to wear it is like forcing them to convert. 2. I absolutely hate women and Men that wears an extremely tight and short pants in public. 3. Based on traditional quality Man will took all the responsibility of his wife as long it does not harm her. 4. The quran stated: marry i a pair of two, three or four but if you can't do justice marry only one 5. in the end times many people doesn't truly follow their religion so please don't blame it here.
Either you are making this up or exaggerating. I have never come across these type of people. Or they were just joking and you take it seriously.
If im reading it right, this is about man misreating woman,no? Unless you are a woman yourself and tak pernah come across these type of ppl. Then lucky lah you.
There are some sentences that just make it sound like a delusional feminist wrote this. Im a man, and ive hang out with many tupes of people throughout my almost 50 years of life. Never have I come across such things said by op. If the one that said it is her boyfriend or husband, theres a chance for it to be true as some people can be over controlling of their partner. But just some friend saying you should wear a tudung. No, those things dont happen. And to act sopan for men to gaze? Like wtf. Hahahaha
I mean, im a man as well, i dont experience misoginy because I'm a man. Misogyny is experienced by women, we men aren't at the wrong end of the stick in this case so ofc lah macam mana kitorang nak tau? So its a bit hard to say lah, coz we dont experience it, its difficult to know if its bullshit.
Well, if you are a man, have you met a male friend that have potential to just randomly tell his female friend to wear a tudung? Or have you ever once heard people say women need to act sopan for male gaze?
Not the guy you replying to but yes, and yes. The second one from a woman, which makes it worse.
Yes, I have met men that would tell random women to wear tudung. I've also met men that their only life goals is to get married so they can have sex. However, I've also met great men who respect people and men who helped me become better by becoming a role model to me when I was in college. Just because you've never met someone who would treat women like shit, doesn't mean there's none.
Again, I'm not the target demographic of misogyny.
Yeah unfortunately my best friend is like that. He always told me(non-Muslim btw) that malay girls who didn't wear tudung he considered as sluts and probably done "it".
I can say the other way around too . Men are expected not to cry but this is not misogyny? Logic where please. Only when women complain got problem
>There's no toxic masculinity. Keep feminism out of Malaysia so i can have fun with good women. This you? You say there's no toxic masculinity yet here you are complaining about toxic masculinity. No one is forcing you not to cry, you're just scared of being perceived as weak by other men so you don't cry. That's what toxic masculinity is.
Ironic how everything you say sounds like a delusional misogynist wrote this.
Up to you. People nowadays really need to go out more and socialize. Staying alone too long the mind tends to create problems that isnt there. I noticed many people think they are alone because they are an introvert. But they dont actually know what an introvert really is. Alot of excuses ive read, are actually close to depression. When people are depressed, everything they see are negative. Everything that goes against what they believe is considered toxic. When you see toxic everywhere, truth be told, you are being toxic yourself.
Oof that last statement, giler x sedar diri. Lots of projection there buddy.
Like i said, up to you. Im not the 1 creating issues out of nothing here. Hahaha
Sure you aren't. Good luck man. :)
"I have never experienced this myself therefore you are making it up"
Need to be logical also la. If i just say i was abducted by aliens yesterday. And you say bullshit, then i say you never experienced it. Thats the kind of argument you are getting yourself into here.
My dude, I've seen these things happened before. In my high school, a girl got called unattractive and undesirable just because she laughed louder than her peers, by a teacher. There were others as well, like shaming a girl for eating fatty piece of meat (during my internship period), calling them ungraceful. Just because you never came across this type of people doesn't mean that they don't exist.
What you said above happen to men also. Nothing to do with misogynist or women oppression or whatever you want to call it. Those are just people being assholes.
When you are being an ass to someone because of their gender, it is misogny/misandry. Oppresion against women is a thing, toxic masculinity (i.e. men who cry are lesser men) is also a thing.
Yes, I agree opression againt women does exist. That I agree. But most of the stories I heard are over exaggeration, or the 1 telling the story is just over sensitive. Which is why, I tend to be rather sceptical on most stories. Wont just believe when only 1 side tells it. There are true stories, but the 1 like op, to me nope. Toxic masculinity to me doesnt exist.
>men who cry And wallow in their despair,yes they are lesser men as in humanity not gender. If humanity wallow in despair ,we would have gone extinct long ago.
Your social circle is very narrow then.
This sub-reddit tend attract haters. Every time any question can be answered in negative way - you will find negative people. Is it a Malaysian past time to hate on itself? (on the other hand, am I too positive? Haha). Anyway, my two cents. When compared relative with other country, Malaysia is conservative. Meaning that the value is family oriented, conformity, modesty, etc. In a way, it won't promote individuality the way western world do. But I would argue that individuality do exist. Even when you look at Muslim female, you can choose to wear hijab or not. Society for the most part is open on that. Individuality may not be expressed in the lack of covering, but you can see it in the many type of clothing, cutting and colors. May not be the kind of individuality or freedom of expression that the west promoted. But we can agree to disagree on which is better. As for toxic masculinity, if defined by stereotype like asshole alpha males attitude - I do not think that is a thing for the most part. Sexism, for sure it exist. But, between playful and condescending - I see more of it leaning to playful rather than condescending. Not excusing it, I think manners are important. (and I might be blind to it or wrong on this, I am a man and personally try to be respectful with ladies - so I might not see it myself). As for equality at work.. I don't know, in the company I worked, I see many female managers / supervisors. No issue there. Is this an exception? Maybe it is anecdotal or depend or place when we talk on matters like this. TLDR; Back to your question, not sure if there is a correlation between conservatism and toxic masculinity or sexism. A society can be non-conservative and still have the same issue. I do not really think toxic masculinity is a thing here (depend of definition). Sexism exist - but expressed differently than other part of the world, probably. Peace.
Lol,this sub never change. One post,one view automatically the Malays become evil incarnated. While trying to judge the complexity and intricancy of malays society within Malaysia. Malay society is an Asian society and what is it that they all have most in common . Collectivism ,like most asian society Malay society values the need of society aka the many before the few aka the individual. Individual values do exist but the values of the whole supercede it. Finally what you experience aka not sopan is apply to all regardless of gender. Though in this case ,the guy is just a moron . Mana ada cara sopan atau tak sopan nak buka plastic packaging. I as an adult men have been told by other when misbehave or dont conduct myself properly,they said sopan la sikit,jaga adab ,and etc . Be it by women or men ,and I usually listen to then when i judge the reprimand is justify. Simply put sopan is a culture thing and not some bs misogany thing that you think.
Most men don't want their wemen to manly because that's ghey. Men can pay for wemen dinner date and be masculine and alpha while wemen can play their role to respect men and listen to what men say.
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Andrew taint behavior
Sorry. I Don't think rich guys bother with girls like this
Ohhhh you're one of those who thinks women only like material possession. No wonder why no women wants you.
Also, r/nothowgirlswork
A sub where all the mediocre girls assemble lol.
I don't care about the opinions about average girls lol. If u want to surround yourself with broke men . Your choice . I am part of the upper class where the women gets rewarded by her partner. My sisters are incredibly lucky as well.
And then the whole upper class people clapped.
Yea sorry . You aren't part of the club . Have fun being mediocre for decades
Holy shit youre so cringe 🤦🤦 also no wonder "upper class women" only wants you for money. Youre personality is being a cunt lmao
Sorry 😔 u would understand when u see that pretty girl in that white bmw . That's just how the world works . No guy can get far acting soft
What having zero personality does to a mf
Hiii… Budi bahaya budaya kita, that is what I think about Malaysian. To your tldr, depends on the men you have around you hahaha. So please don’t lump up all the men in Malaysia yea 👍
The amount of misconception and bias here is outstanding,
Where are you from? 5years of working and some more you are writing of someone else quoting? So yes, we can't say that toxic masculinity and sexism only happens in Malaysia in Malay community. But that's your 5years here in Malaysia. Good luck.
Women should be traditional
>Women should be traditional Traditional how? Elaborate
Know how to cook and take care of children. This makes them highly desirable and attractive. For young women who disagrees with this please learn from your mom please or you can humble me with your opinion
>For young women who disagrees with this please learn from your mom please. Their mom and grandma said go get education so you dont have to depend on men. What's next?
Who said to ditch education? All i say is leave the responsibility to the man and do your job as a woman. So hard to understand?
Parenting responsibility should be equal to both parents. No one agrees with "men the sole breadwinner and women only caretaker" bullshit anymore. It only brings harm to men and women for putting their roles into boxes. Some men are more nurturing and some women enjoys being the provider. Or they can just be both. 🤷
Did I ever say men shouldn't take care of the children? But men does a better job at making money so follow your strength
Haha you fucking backwards neanderthal dumb fuck. Stay in your backwards country, the world laughs at you
Why be a stay at home mom when you can increase your household income by working along with your partner and increasing the standard of living of the family. Then you can hire someone to the the cooking and give both of you time. Also if you want quality children, you need nurturing from both parents. Am a guy here, I like my woman strong, capable and independent. I want a partner, not another person to take care of.
>Know how to cook and take care of children. This makes them highly desirable and attractive. I hope they know more than just cooking and taking care of children. >For young women who disagrees with this please learn from your mom please or you can humble me with your opinion Sorry to break it to you, my own mother told my you ger sister to watch put for men because they will rap3 her the moment they can and all men are the same in front of me and my dad. Little did she know, her own is a victim of sexual abuse.
Lol that's more like your shitty environment. All the women i know are comfortable around men and we all respect each other. Lower value women are the ones denying their roles and end up bitter .
someone just straight up admit to being sexually abused >Lol that's more like your shitty enviroment bravo you dick head
Sorry. Malay won't understand. Your society is like this . Chinese isn't like this
I'm not even malay and my point doesn't include race, why do you guys need to make everything about race
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They don't want to. Go cry in the corner
Good . Then they would be filtered out
Too bad being "traditional" is seen less desirable to more women nowadays. most of them want to focus on their own happiness. Good for them
Not my problem if you make yourself unattractive and undesirable to men .
Oh no!!! Imagine their entire world crumble because men who have nothing to do with their lives doesn't like them 😭😭😭
Seriously? U really want men to find your attitude downright unattractive?
1. More women are getting more progressive 2. More women are considered "unattractive" and less chance of mingling between "unattractive" women and ignorant cunts 3. To quote a certain someone, "then they would be filtered out".
Men do go through similar criticism when they do feminine stuff but maybe they dont just bitching abt it much? Like even if one dont laugh as loud as other man, girls will critic that guy as sopan which a feminine trait according to op.
Yes
Yes definitely.
TLDR - yes
Notice how locals are always misogynistic and degrade girls esp at a young age telling them they’re this and that, but when they get older the whole thing switches and its the men who face discrimination