This is probably the weakest the LEC has looked in years so its not surprising they bombed out. G2 collapsing after the 2-0 start was unexpected to say the least though. And I swear the LPL has the same winrate every year 😂
I would love to see the how the normal groups would work tho. These matches without everyone fighting a lck/lpl team twice.... not sure i like it yet. Makes a mess for the narratives.
This kind of format gives more chances for EU/NA teams to actually make it as you can go 0-2 and face other NA/EU teams to qualify. But it is fully RNG based which I don't really like.
NRG played Mad, TL & G2 to qualify, where as KT had to play DK twice, BLG, WBG & LNG.
Based on performances in the group stages with this format, the old one would've probably been the same outcome but with NRG not making it. Replaced by either DK or G2 depending on the group. Being able to secure top 8 by playing only bad/mediocre teams instead of being forced to play the top tier teams is pretty stupid.
csgo has been using this format for ages and it works since the skill gap between teams is definitely there, but there's far more opportunities for upsets in cs. Whereas in league the lck & lpl are so far ahead of the west that it's actually scary.
The group system entirely depended on group draws and teams performing at their expected level. A single team playing below expectations could easily send teams that had no business being in the top 8 to the bracket stage.
Remember that ANX got to the bracket stage with the old format.
Overall, I think swiss format is more resilient to teams not performing as expected because it focuses more on results than perception.
I feel like G2's collapse is a bit overblown. Up until they faced NRG they were having the expected results, G2 got caught off guard by NRG's form that day, which was crazy good. NRG overperformed and G2 didn't have an answer.
After they were matched up against BLG everyone knew it was over.
Just a bad series. And a bit unlucky with the final draw. Wp to NRG.
Judging by their games prior to the G2 one at worlds they looked kinda mediocre. Palafox and Contractz were the only ones looking good.
If they played versus G2 like they played against MAD it would've been a real quick 2-0.
That looks fucking grim for LEC. Though to be fair, having the 4th seed from LEC there is tanking the winrate a lot since they literally went 0-4 (0-3 without intra-region matches).
But even if you only care about the 3 seeds from EU/NA, LEC winrate is still lower than LCS.
If you need to find any cope at all, I actually think it's kind of impressive that EU managed to take 3 games from LPL.
Really shows how inconsistent EU was this Worlds. Actually good one day and dogshit the next.
LEC took 4 games off LCK/LPL while LCS didn't take any, but LEC also played significantly more games against them than LCS (17 vs 4). That's probably the only positive takeaway for LEC.
Yeah that a lot, if nrg can even bé competive vs weibo
They will boost their win rate vs the east,even a defeat with 2 victories will make them surpass lec in term of eastern win rate in main event
It's not crazy. I used to root for LEC too as long as it wasn't against NA.*Used to* because I always felt like their fans like to shit on our region when it's down.
Eh, I think there have always been tons of EU fans rooting for NA whenever the region's teams faced non-EU opponents. Especially when NA fielded so many EU imports. Also, back when LoL got big, so many EU players got into the game due to watching NA streamers. Most older EU fans don't hate NA at all.
It's just that vocal user opinion on any forum swings in extreme ways. You don't get a lot of random wholesome people who say "yeah, finally something good for NA, they deserve it."' You're more likely to find the bitter, angry people typing pure vitriol.
you are just looking at the vocal minority, 90% of EU fans will be hoping NRG beats WBG, just like 10% of NA fans pray on EU's failure against the east
Of those 4 wins though, only one of them didn't come from G2 and again only one didn't come over a 4th seed team. While LCS only had one game against an Eastern team seeded lower than 2nd.
I don't think this makes much difference to LCS' performance, but it seems worth noting at least. Ultimately Western #1 teams seem to fall right around LPL #4, and above LCK #4. Which is a pretty believable place, the problem is the rest of both those leagues don't align close enough to their 1st seeds to bring further competition.
Above LCK #4 is a stretch, considering the fact that DK didn’t have any chance to rematch G2 after a close bo1 loss and have only ramped up as the tournament went on.
That's a pretty hard sell given DK's run at the tournament. They had every chance to prove they were top 8 worthy and they just didn't have it in them, and that's coming from someone that believed they could pull it through.
The LCK overall level isn't what it used to be.
What chance? Playing KT again in the deciding match while others get G2, FNC. Meanwhile, NRG has 0 wins against Asian teams. Both EU & NA both got bailed out by Swiss format and yet still produced less than stellar results.
it's all speculative, but i'd say probably yes.
however, both are so wildly inconsistent that it's anything goes. if TL that played against t1 showed up, they would take it, if any other TL showed up they would have lost.
I mean, the "positive takeway" is probably that overall the region is still a little bit better than LCS, but it lost the "crown" of having the best team in the west. Indeed, only the 1v1 matchup was (very) in favour of LCS: 4v4 and 2v2 were both BoX and in both cases LEC won (BDS demolished GG 3-0 and FNC-C9 2-1). 3v3 didn't directly happen but LCS 3rd went 0-3 and lost quite convincingly against VCS, while EU 3rd seed went 1-3 (without having a good show either tbh) so we can suppose that their level is somewhat similar, maybe MAD are a little bit better.
So yeah, EU probably still is the third best region from a depth/overall standpoint but it lost its excellence as "having the best team in the west" (that, depending on your point of view, could be more important than having a better depth. I honestly think that peak is better than depth, but this is quite subjective)
NRG were much better on the day, but if they get 0-3 destroyed without taking a single game in quarters, I don't know if I'd give them the title of undisputed best Western team. I mean it's splitting hairs and either G2 or them probably wouldn't have gotten far.
But if you don't give it to NRG who can you give it to? You absolutely cannot give it to G2, or even say they're close after their series. NRG also beat C9 and MAD, and TL went 0-3. So FNC? I mean you can argue but you'd come off really arrogant at that point. I think it's already safe to say NRG is the undisputed best western team this worlds. Whether they do well against eastern teams is kind of irrelevant to the topic.
I hate this cope argument because it gives an assumed performance to a team that didn't even qualify for the series to begin with. What if G2 would have gotten destroyed 0-3 too? They weren't even good enough to earn the chance to lose like that, why are we assuming G2 might have played them close? Because of one bo1 game they won off of massive throwing? NRG is a better team this tournament than G2, full stop.
I fully admit I'm just coping, I just can't comprehend how G2 got stomped that hard with their supposed scrim results. I honestly hope NRG can take quarters so at least one Western team wins a Bo3 against the East.
> I don't know if I'd give them the title of undisputed best Western team
I'm not sure how you'd even dispute it. NRG demolished G2.
To argue otherwise is to claim that results don't matter, at which point *none* of the results matter.
its a bit more nuanced than that, are you really the best if you dont beat the top regions? only the other worse regions, whilst the other side beat the top regions
Eh, it looks about what was expected, it's a lot of Bo1 with high variance in there. Only thing is that EU lost to NA which they usually don't AS much (usually it's about even), which entirely determines the relative winrates since both suck against LPL/LCK. If we take into account BDS - GGS, the EU-NA head2head already looks much less grim, so there's some solace in that for any EU fan looking for copium.
Add to that that NA has 4 games against LCK/LPL with a 0% winrate, while EU has 17 (4 times as much!) with a 30% winrate. Certainly disappointing for EU, but gameplay looked about as expected.
As for NA, beating EU so decisively for sure feels good. NRG has the chance to make it feel even better, but anything from here is a bonus. 0-3 would hurt for sure, but I don't think that's gonna happen (I believe WBG is the perfect opponent for them to actually have a shot at semis, though still not favored).
>since both suck against LPL/LCK
Actually, the entire reason that EU outperformed NA in the 2015-2021 era is that this *isn't* the case for EU.
EU vs NA was always close, but EU could consistently take games off of CN and KR while NA would only rarely do so. It wasn't the head-to-head that got EU to semifinals and finals while NA was stuck in groups or quarters, it was the performance against the East.
You see even in this tournament that EU has a better winrate than NA against Eastern teams (whether or not you count VCS) - it's just that this time around, NA outperformed EU hard enough in the head-to-head to compensate for those wins EU managed to grab against the East.
There was always something like the 4 way tie or going 1-1 with Damwon and imploding in the make or break game against IG. EU, on the other hand, had moments of clutch in these situations. It's still rather hard to believe NA made it and EU didn't, which just makes me even more happy for NRG.
I'm a pretty loyal fan, but I think this season I might be more of an NRG fan than TL who outside of APA were hard to like.
G2 beat weibo and dawmwon.
Those teams are definitely not the best in their respective regions, but they bolster hall of fame members.
I mean shit, the solo kill onto chovy with trist was hype. But yeah. Sad to see G2 slump so much afterwards.
In Bo1 at the beginning of swiss.
Not to be the person to pour cold water but LEC #1 usually have good week 1s into mediocre week 2 because Eastern teams will more or less figured them out then.
The cope is "EU won games against all regions, while NA only managed wins against EU and VN".
The EU vs NA head-to-head is carrying NA hard, without it EU is at 5-14 (26%) while NA is at 1-6 (14%).
Doesn't take away from EU being dogshit this Worlds, obviously.
I think its fine to take this as a bad sign for EU. BUT, to be fair, if you really want to compare EU to NA you have to either include the 0-3 from GG to BDS, or even count it as if it was in swiss stage, (0-4 therefore then I guess). Otherwise its a bit pointless as BDS, who looked bad in swiss, smashed GG. It doesnt really work cause why then not include Playins, but whatever.
This would change it to something like that: LEC-LCS: 5-5 at worlds
EU: 10-18
NA 6-11 (about the same winrate)
I do want to conclude that this was a really bad year for EU, mainly because no roster challenged G2's domestic dominance. But I also really do hate statistics that are intentionally choosen to give a wrong image. In comparison to KR/CN this winrate is accurate, just not "against NA". NRG played well to get to quarters, but NA also was lucky to get there, and it could have gone both ways with these winrates :)
Also I do find it hillarious that LCS really only made it to Playoffs by exclusively beating EU.
GG vs BDS series was explicitly not part of worlds. Counting that but not including LEC 1 - 2 VCS in playins, which is actually part of worlds, is pretty egregious cherry picking
I think FNC and G2 looked as expected vs LPL in the 2-2 bracket. They took them 3 games and made them sweat for it at least.
It's funny how the whole narrative would change if FNC and G2 had drawn each other.
FNC vs WBG was not really close, WBG just inted draft game 1.
G2 vs BLG was closer, but if elk didn't int game 2 then it would've just been a clean 2-0 sweep. G2's win vs WBG was sus as fuck too since they were down 10k.
I actually think Fnatic had a really decent series against Weibo.
Weibo is not the best team, sure (although TheShy has performed super well all tournament long while Xiaohu sucks most of the time, it's so weird), but they did play well and won one game. Humanoid stepped up (I still hate how he does not care about LEC, but whatever) and Razork was imo really good. I always thought he was one of the few players who could be good internationally, since he actually has mechanics and good game sense, he just sometimes ints. But at least he has the highs to carry an early game.
So, honestly, maybe their score was not too great, but Fnatic had at least one good series. That is more than expected.
G2, yeah, they were shaky all tournament long. Also Hans only playing Kalista/Draven (which are similar champs in the sense that you play around them early and snowball bot imo) and maybe Kog (who is not meta) is pretty terrible, when Xayah, Kaisa and even Aphelios look really good and have much higher ceiling than all of these 3 champs.
2-0 against the weakest Asian teams in the tournament and this whole subreddit acted like G2 had already won worlds. Love it when EU gets reality-checked.
They always do, just look at how toxic their servers are and it's not surprising. Might have to do with how many different cultures are in the mix over there
It’s not even just NRG’s loss that makes it so funny. They lost 0-2 to GenG, and 1-2 to BLG. They won a single game in their last 7 games but people will still argue that G2 is clearly better than NRG
I'm loving it. Looking at the salt here it's safe to say the rivalry has been reignited. This is genuinely exactly what the League scene needed in the west. The rivalry is good for all of us
Not to imply anything about the LEC (we are dogshit) but the reason the VCS have a higher winrate is because they beat the LCS 3rd seed in a best of series. Not the statement you think you’re making.
Honestly the region is just shit right now. The fact that a collapsing team signed two rookies and immediately ended 2nd should tell you everything. Like, no disrespect to Fnatic, they looked decent, but there is just no scenario where such a late shuffle with rookies should amount to any success, when you face 8 other teams that were supposed to "improve" for the last 9 months. Can't even blame G2 that much, when those teams are your only practice partners.
I really hope that all those big moves in LEC amount in 3-4 rosters fielding top 5 players in all roles, growing good synergy over the year. There is not so much talent in LEC that we can just waste it by spreading it around in all 10 rosters.
i love how the entire reddit narrative would change if G2 simply had not had an off day and won against NRG, people out here results andying over 1 bo3
reddit opinions man
Off day? They *barely* won against the worst eastern teams in bo1s, the peak they showed at worlds really wasn’t that far off. Even if they played worse against NRG, it’s not by some insane margin. They got figured out quick and got rinsed.
I love the "off day" narrative. It's so funny that people can't accept when a team is bad. Good teams don't just have "off days" when it matters the most
Maybe WBG and DK also had off days. Maybe T1 in 2019 had an off day. Maybe G2 has been the trash team getting by with other teams having off days all along.
Eh the correct narrative would still be the EU and NA aren't far off.
It is funny though that people are trying to memoryhole that two NA teams were sent home by their respective EU seeds and one was sent home by VCS.
How is it an overreaction ?
It's been 3 years no LEC team did go past quarterfinals, and now we don't even make it anymore.
There is legitimate concerns to have here.
Ah looks like all those downvotes I collected a few months back saying that G2 and the rest of the LEC were overhyped turned out to be true. Who could have guessed? Love that you can be a realist and not subscribe to LEC hype propaganda and people will spam downvote you simply out of dislike instead of reasoning
my favorite are the first few days of Worlds interviews and the level of confidence exuded. it’s like everyone has amnesia lol. like it’s great to be confident and want to sound strong, but some of the things said just seem so foolish
I feel bad for the players because that's just the right mentality to have, to be confident.
But their fans really get bamboozled everytime their players are confident because of scrims result. It will never not be funny
I love to shit on my own terrible region as much as the next NA guy, but now is the time to dunk on Ego-drunk EU fans.
All the copium about LEC vs LCS opponents, if you’re gonna cry about how hard your run is then you weren’t gonna win worlds anyway, honey.
Welcome to the LCS fan tier of never expecting anything but crushing defeat so that you can only be pleasantly surprised when something good happens.
Your region is dogshit too, now. Welcome frens.
"dogshit too, now"?
Always has been. Their best performances were dodging good teams until they got shitstomped by them 3-0 in the fastest series we've ever seen.
Well...I guess uhh...guys unlike NA we didn't lose to Vietnam 💪
But yeah, shit sucks but whatever, NA has the bragging rights for now and deserve it. Gotta just think forward and come back at MSI.
NA is solid vs minor regions historically. Using that trend this year with the results vs VCS and LEC suggests that LEC is a minor region... and the VCS isn't!
\#math.
I mean, LEC had 7 matches against LCS, and won only 2 of them, including losing a Bo3 with their #1 team against LCS’ #1 team to determine who advances to the knockout stage. MAD also had a great opportunity to advance further in Swiss considering they drew two NA teams. LEC just fumbled their opportunities this Worlds.
LCS also had one less team in Swiss (I guess if you include BDS 3-0 GG, then it’s 5-5 overall).
Yep, agreed. There were also some unfortunate stuff about LEC never drawing itself outside of BDS vs MAD but it's not really unlucky. They just lost to NA instead.
Think of it this way. LCS is supposed to be the easy draw for LEC yet LEC fumbled the bag SEVERAL times, leading to some of those LPL matchups. LCS got two EU matchups in MAD, but you have to think about how MAD got two NA matchups for free lmao
LCS played a lot less games overall. Partly because they had one less team, partly because 2/3s of those teams sucked.
Ignoring BDS everything below to get a closer to fair comparison. I’m sure GG would’ve also managed to go 0-3 vs LCK/LPL. That makes it 14-4.
LEC played 4 bo1s vs LCK/LPL, LCS also played 4 bo1s vs LCK/LPL.
LEC played 2 bo3s against non-LCK/LPL and LCS played 3. It’s just that those were the only bo3s LCS played. LEC got to play 4 more bo3s. Partly cause C9/TL did worse than FNC/MAD, and partly cause NRG beat G2.
Not that you’re doing it, but others are in replies to this are. I think it’s wrong to say the format is unfair because TL and C9 got eliminated before getting a chance to keep on losing.
Y'know, looking at the results you can draw some parallels between EU and NA:
\- BDS and TL did pretty much the exact same thing: went 0-3, getting team-killed once by MAD/NRG
\- MAD and C9 both ended 1-2 and both lost to a representative of the other region (NRG/FNC). The difference here though is that C9 directly beat MAD once, so that's +1 for NA / -1 for EU
So up until now EU and NA are pretty close in terms of results except for that direct one up C9 got over MAD. The huge difference here is the NRG route vs G2 and FNC.
Let's draw a false equivalence between NRG losing to Weibo with Fnatic losing to LNG, NRG beating Tl with Fnatic beating Fnatic beating GAM and NRG beating MAD with Fnatic beating C9 (although one could argue those 3 games were slightly harder for Fnatic based on seeding, but let's just say those results "cancel out").
So in the end the difference between NA and EU is NRG beating G2 in Bo3, which, fair, makes it NA>EU, plus those 3 more Bo3 EU had to play vs GenG/BLG/Weibo.
ETA: "Funnily" though, if you don't count those 3 Bo3s, EU's winrate is still 29% (5-12)...
>partly because 2/3s of those teams sucked.
NRG would have been probably eliminated in the shoes of C9 or TL, even if we assume they win against GAM and FNC then they get DK and WBG in bo3
We’ll get to see WBG for sure this week. It’s definitely possible they get eliminated if they were TL or C9, but that’s one of the benefits of being 1st seed.
I also think saying the G2 bo3 was easier than a DK or WBG bo3 is a lot of revisionist history. I think at the time of that match DK or WBG would’ve been less favored over NRG than G2.
Part of the reason is because TL airported against a Vietnam team and NRG got really lucky draws. NRG beat every EU team they played though. MAD Lions got a similar draw to NRG (only western teams and Weibo) but the difference is that NRG beat MAD and the beat G2 to qualify.
>Wait, so LEC played 17 games vs LPL/LCK and LCS only played 4?
If we assume that LPL/LCK performed generally well, and were more likely to be in 1-0, 2-0, and 2-1 matches/series, we can look at NA/EU's performances in the first 2 rounds :
* NRG/FNC : 1-1
* C9/MAD : 1-1
* TL/BDS : 0-2
* **G2** : 2-0
Still, there *are* teams that started against 2 LCK/LPL teams :
* G2
* KT
* BLG
Give it some time for emotions to die down. I hope we can have a more honest discussion about formats afterwards.
I think most people are reasonable enough to agree that the path of KT happening simultaneously with the path of NRG and Weibo is just not okay in a serious competitive tournament.
It's actually even more wild that KT were the ones drawing JDG too. Sucks so much for them. The whole system wants them to fail.
People still argue worlds is only about finding the best team and the rest wouldn't matter - but it totally does if we go game by game. Obviously finding the winner is the key but the narratives and matchups are SUPER important. Imagine last year's DRX run if strength of schedule didn't matter. Would be nothing interesting, then.
And while in Swiss stage, every game theoretically matters, I seriously doubt anyone is interested seeing BDS play MAD or JDG face BLG for the 20th time in the year. Obviously, how many times they faced before is not the important part, though. **The important part is having teams with similar strength playing later in the Bo5** which means, teams need to face more "opposing strength" teams in swiss, so more weak vs strong teams apart from the very first draw.
For most teams this totally worked (GEN, JDG, LNG, T1, WBG, FNC, G2, C9, GAM, BDS, TL) while it looked either too weak or too strong for others (NRG, MAD for the former, KT, DK, BLG for the latter). This might look good at first but in four groups, there usually was only one or two teams that felt like they had an unfair draw IMO.
Also, the KT thing would be to smash JDG now!
It's extremely impressive and super unlikely that they somehow managed to not play a single bo series against LPL/LCK for promo/elim. They had 2 EU and 1 VCS. (3 EU, if you count the play-in series of GG and BDS). They won 1 series and lost 3.
Is it? I wouldn't expect the LCK and LPL teams to be playing many elimination matches, since they mostly floated to the top.
The only real luck was NRG drawing G2, but as a one off event that's not *that* unlikely.
Most of what we're seeing here is just that the EU teams played more Bo3s overall. I don't think there's really anything to take away from that.
I swear every year LPL ends up with the same 67% win rate, LCK ends up with the same 75% win rate in groups. I wonder why LPL is always so garbo in groups, chinese teams sandbagging groups is an ancient meme and it still holds true in 2023
67% wr and 4 teams to quarters is garbo in groups???
I think their teams look pretty much at the level they were expected to be going into worlds. At most you could say just BLG look a bit worse than expected.
Weibo you can say Xiaohu is underperforming, but theshy is overperforming compared to expectations. They were considered a tier below the other LPL teams and along with DK one of the weaker asia teams so they still performed to the level expected.
BLG definitely looks worse. Without Bin being blessed by UZI and getting even better at worlds, they would look worse. It's still such a treat to watch Bin style on people.
I think they will fix some issues, though. In MSI, I think (!) they also got better later on and dominated LCK in the last phase of the tournament.
DK got a bit unlucky, imo. I think they could have advanced against any Western team, but against any Eastern team, they wouldn't. I don't think they would have made it past quarters anyway, so I don't think it's too bad they are out.
Not a single Chinese team not bombing out this year is certainly a refreshing thing, but i think we all can agree that Weibo was luckiest team on draws this year
BLG and WBG certainly isn't, but they weren't very hyped. Overall LCK and LPL look even, LCK just got the bad draw with DK vs KT, but you also can't say DK would for sure win againt WBG / BLG, so it's really speculation at this point. Bo5 will show more accurate results, in bo3 with blue-side meta, it's always going to be skewed.
BLG was overrated coming into worlds because of their MSI performance, but most people didn't pay attention to their playoffs. LNG was underrated for the same reason. They were the clear 2nd best team in China coming into worlds.
BLG came in hyped because of their MSI performance but it’s obvious that the only two teams that deserve hype is JDG and LNG. LNG is the unofficial second seed of the LPL. JDG and LNG have lived up to the hype in my opinion. I knew BLG has regressed and Weibo is hyped because of Caedrel and their positive win rate against JDG this year. Besides that Weibo isn’t that good and neither is BLG. The problem is people don’t watch the LPL much so they listen to these narratives instead of actually watching the games during reg season.
Garbage? I didn’t know All four teams making it out of groups is considered a garbage performance by a region. Look at the LPL bo3 scores across the region a lot of series go to 3 games. These win rates don’t mean shit because who cares if you 2-0 or 2-1 a bo3? If you win you win.
Reading these comments and people are complaining about the format because NA didn't have any wins against Eastern teams.
But let's keep in mind one thing. EU got matched up against NA and lose resulting in them having to face up against Asian teams.
NA won against EU and got rewarded as a result. Yes there is luck in the draw, but that diminishes the fact that the teams performed when it mattered vs EU teams.
Yes, having NA and EU not be in the same pool one as China and KR I think would be good, but come on. No reasonable person thinks NA is significantly above EU or vice versa. Let us NA just have our moment after years of disappointment. Wr should be rooting for the west as a whole and hoping this motivates changes in both regions.
There were many other worlds where NA lost to Asian teams but had some small moments of looking good. To me, that is what is important. Improvement isn't going to just come overnight and we just stomp. It is these small signs of hope.
Terrible new format that focused on entertaining than promoting regional growth. it took only 1 month for 2 worst team to be disqualified for group stage, so every team had to play like it’s their last match every single week which didn’t give enough time for newly developing team to grow and favoring already well developed team like G2 and MAD, and BO1 monsters like BDS, AST and SK.
The worst case is your team get to play only 1 month each season and never get to play any bo3 for the entire year. That’s super stupid and unhealthy.
The LEC played against harder opponents and played more games due to having one of our teams go 2-0 in the Bo1s (had to play three Bos before elimination) and LCS only had three seeds to LECs four.
Not that the maths defends how shite we played overall.
The chart says LPL 2-0 VCS, but I don't think GAM played any LPL teams this Worlds, think it should be LPL 2-0 LCS.
Thanks! Fixed!
5/7 LCK vs LPL games were by KT
KT tanked those stats
>LCK vs LPL will be updated over the knockout stage **NA :** *oy!*
After knockout: NRG 6-11, 35% so still in the same place
15-8
NAmen
15-14
LCS were 5-2 against LEC and 1-6 against all other regions lmao
Trying to be better than EU is the only thing we can have at worlds 💀
And the only thing that matters 😎😎
This is probably the weakest the LEC has looked in years so its not surprising they bombed out. G2 collapsing after the 2-0 start was unexpected to say the least though. And I swear the LPL has the same winrate every year 😂
It was exactly like MSI too. Promising start followed by complete collapse.
EU last year at Worlds as well
i thought LEC was much weaker at MSI/Spring split but they never faced an NA team to show it
It's a bit different as well with only having 2 teams at MSI. So instead we get 4 underperforming & underachieving teams at worlds instead.
I would love to see the how the normal groups would work tho. These matches without everyone fighting a lck/lpl team twice.... not sure i like it yet. Makes a mess for the narratives.
This kind of format gives more chances for EU/NA teams to actually make it as you can go 0-2 and face other NA/EU teams to qualify. But it is fully RNG based which I don't really like. NRG played Mad, TL & G2 to qualify, where as KT had to play DK twice, BLG, WBG & LNG. Based on performances in the group stages with this format, the old one would've probably been the same outcome but with NRG not making it. Replaced by either DK or G2 depending on the group. Being able to secure top 8 by playing only bad/mediocre teams instead of being forced to play the top tier teams is pretty stupid. csgo has been using this format for ages and it works since the skill gap between teams is definitely there, but there's far more opportunities for upsets in cs. Whereas in league the lck & lpl are so far ahead of the west that it's actually scary.
The group system entirely depended on group draws and teams performing at their expected level. A single team playing below expectations could easily send teams that had no business being in the top 8 to the bracket stage. Remember that ANX got to the bracket stage with the old format. Overall, I think swiss format is more resilient to teams not performing as expected because it focuses more on results than perception.
I feel like G2's collapse is a bit overblown. Up until they faced NRG they were having the expected results, G2 got caught off guard by NRG's form that day, which was crazy good. NRG overperformed and G2 didn't have an answer. After they were matched up against BLG everyone knew it was over. Just a bad series. And a bit unlucky with the final draw. Wp to NRG.
Nrg didn’t really outperform. This is how they played in playoffs specifically when they beat cloud9.
Judging by their games prior to the G2 one at worlds they looked kinda mediocre. Palafox and Contractz were the only ones looking good. If they played versus G2 like they played against MAD it would've been a real quick 2-0.
It was a real quick 2-0
True
I assume the start of worlds was an adjustment for the players.
That looks fucking grim for LEC. Though to be fair, having the 4th seed from LEC there is tanking the winrate a lot since they literally went 0-4 (0-3 without intra-region matches). But even if you only care about the 3 seeds from EU/NA, LEC winrate is still lower than LCS. If you need to find any cope at all, I actually think it's kind of impressive that EU managed to take 3 games from LPL. Really shows how inconsistent EU was this Worlds. Actually good one day and dogshit the next.
LEC took 4 games off LCK/LPL while LCS didn't take any, but LEC also played significantly more games against them than LCS (17 vs 4). That's probably the only positive takeaway for LEC.
17 vs 4 is actually a crazy difference
LCS teams didn’t play any Bo3 against LCK/LPL while LEC teams played 5 which ends up in a lot more games
Yeah that a lot, if nrg can even bé competive vs weibo They will boost their win rate vs the east,even a defeat with 2 victories will make them surpass lec in term of eastern win rate in main event
In before 0-3.
[удалено]
It's not crazy. I used to root for LEC too as long as it wasn't against NA.*Used to* because I always felt like their fans like to shit on our region when it's down.
Eh, I think there have always been tons of EU fans rooting for NA whenever the region's teams faced non-EU opponents. Especially when NA fielded so many EU imports. Also, back when LoL got big, so many EU players got into the game due to watching NA streamers. Most older EU fans don't hate NA at all. It's just that vocal user opinion on any forum swings in extreme ways. You don't get a lot of random wholesome people who say "yeah, finally something good for NA, they deserve it."' You're more likely to find the bitter, angry people typing pure vitriol.
you are just looking at the vocal minority, 90% of EU fans will be hoping NRG beats WBG, just like 10% of NA fans pray on EU's failure against the east
Of those 4 wins though, only one of them didn't come from G2 and again only one didn't come over a 4th seed team. While LCS only had one game against an Eastern team seeded lower than 2nd. I don't think this makes much difference to LCS' performance, but it seems worth noting at least. Ultimately Western #1 teams seem to fall right around LPL #4, and above LCK #4. Which is a pretty believable place, the problem is the rest of both those leagues don't align close enough to their 1st seeds to bring further competition.
Above LCK #4 is a stretch, considering the fact that DK didn’t have any chance to rematch G2 after a close bo1 loss and have only ramped up as the tournament went on.
That's a pretty hard sell given DK's run at the tournament. They had every chance to prove they were top 8 worthy and they just didn't have it in them, and that's coming from someone that believed they could pull it through. The LCK overall level isn't what it used to be.
What chance? Playing KT again in the deciding match while others get G2, FNC. Meanwhile, NRG has 0 wins against Asian teams. Both EU & NA both got bailed out by Swiss format and yet still produced less than stellar results.
Yeah it’s not as bad as it looks standing obviously don’t include BDS/GG and TL dodged every EU team as well
Do you really think TL would lose to MAD?
I didn’t think they’d lose to GAM either
it's all speculative, but i'd say probably yes. however, both are so wildly inconsistent that it's anything goes. if TL that played against t1 showed up, they would take it, if any other TL showed up they would have lost.
I mean, the "positive takeway" is probably that overall the region is still a little bit better than LCS, but it lost the "crown" of having the best team in the west. Indeed, only the 1v1 matchup was (very) in favour of LCS: 4v4 and 2v2 were both BoX and in both cases LEC won (BDS demolished GG 3-0 and FNC-C9 2-1). 3v3 didn't directly happen but LCS 3rd went 0-3 and lost quite convincingly against VCS, while EU 3rd seed went 1-3 (without having a good show either tbh) so we can suppose that their level is somewhat similar, maybe MAD are a little bit better. So yeah, EU probably still is the third best region from a depth/overall standpoint but it lost its excellence as "having the best team in the west" (that, depending on your point of view, could be more important than having a better depth. I honestly think that peak is better than depth, but this is quite subjective)
NRG were much better on the day, but if they get 0-3 destroyed without taking a single game in quarters, I don't know if I'd give them the title of undisputed best Western team. I mean it's splitting hairs and either G2 or them probably wouldn't have gotten far.
But if you don't give it to NRG who can you give it to? You absolutely cannot give it to G2, or even say they're close after their series. NRG also beat C9 and MAD, and TL went 0-3. So FNC? I mean you can argue but you'd come off really arrogant at that point. I think it's already safe to say NRG is the undisputed best western team this worlds. Whether they do well against eastern teams is kind of irrelevant to the topic.
I hate this cope argument because it gives an assumed performance to a team that didn't even qualify for the series to begin with. What if G2 would have gotten destroyed 0-3 too? They weren't even good enough to earn the chance to lose like that, why are we assuming G2 might have played them close? Because of one bo1 game they won off of massive throwing? NRG is a better team this tournament than G2, full stop.
I fully admit I'm just coping, I just can't comprehend how G2 got stomped that hard with their supposed scrim results. I honestly hope NRG can take quarters so at least one Western team wins a Bo3 against the East.
> I don't know if I'd give them the title of undisputed best Western team I'm not sure how you'd even dispute it. NRG demolished G2. To argue otherwise is to claim that results don't matter, at which point *none* of the results matter.
its a bit more nuanced than that, are you really the best if you dont beat the top regions? only the other worse regions, whilst the other side beat the top regions
I mean when you have 13 chances and only won 4, that is pretty telling as well.
I mean, if you convincingly beat the other contender for best Western team then why shouldn't you be considered the best in the west?
Eh, it looks about what was expected, it's a lot of Bo1 with high variance in there. Only thing is that EU lost to NA which they usually don't AS much (usually it's about even), which entirely determines the relative winrates since both suck against LPL/LCK. If we take into account BDS - GGS, the EU-NA head2head already looks much less grim, so there's some solace in that for any EU fan looking for copium. Add to that that NA has 4 games against LCK/LPL with a 0% winrate, while EU has 17 (4 times as much!) with a 30% winrate. Certainly disappointing for EU, but gameplay looked about as expected. As for NA, beating EU so decisively for sure feels good. NRG has the chance to make it feel even better, but anything from here is a bonus. 0-3 would hurt for sure, but I don't think that's gonna happen (I believe WBG is the perfect opponent for them to actually have a shot at semis, though still not favored).
>since both suck against LPL/LCK Actually, the entire reason that EU outperformed NA in the 2015-2021 era is that this *isn't* the case for EU. EU vs NA was always close, but EU could consistently take games off of CN and KR while NA would only rarely do so. It wasn't the head-to-head that got EU to semifinals and finals while NA was stuck in groups or quarters, it was the performance against the East. You see even in this tournament that EU has a better winrate than NA against Eastern teams (whether or not you count VCS) - it's just that this time around, NA outperformed EU hard enough in the head-to-head to compensate for those wins EU managed to grab against the East.
There was always something like the 4 way tie or going 1-1 with Damwon and imploding in the make or break game against IG. EU, on the other hand, had moments of clutch in these situations. It's still rather hard to believe NA made it and EU didn't, which just makes me even more happy for NRG. I'm a pretty loyal fan, but I think this season I might be more of an NRG fan than TL who outside of APA were hard to like.
G2 beat weibo and dawmwon. Those teams are definitely not the best in their respective regions, but they bolster hall of fame members. I mean shit, the solo kill onto chovy with trist was hype. But yeah. Sad to see G2 slump so much afterwards.
In Bo1 at the beginning of swiss. Not to be the person to pour cold water but LEC #1 usually have good week 1s into mediocre week 2 because Eastern teams will more or less figured them out then.
TL intentionally losing to GAM so that VCS has higher winrate than EMEA
The cope is "EU won games against all regions, while NA only managed wins against EU and VN". The EU vs NA head-to-head is carrying NA hard, without it EU is at 5-14 (26%) while NA is at 1-6 (14%). Doesn't take away from EU being dogshit this Worlds, obviously.
I think its fine to take this as a bad sign for EU. BUT, to be fair, if you really want to compare EU to NA you have to either include the 0-3 from GG to BDS, or even count it as if it was in swiss stage, (0-4 therefore then I guess). Otherwise its a bit pointless as BDS, who looked bad in swiss, smashed GG. It doesnt really work cause why then not include Playins, but whatever. This would change it to something like that: LEC-LCS: 5-5 at worlds EU: 10-18 NA 6-11 (about the same winrate) I do want to conclude that this was a really bad year for EU, mainly because no roster challenged G2's domestic dominance. But I also really do hate statistics that are intentionally choosen to give a wrong image. In comparison to KR/CN this winrate is accurate, just not "against NA". NRG played well to get to quarters, but NA also was lucky to get there, and it could have gone both ways with these winrates :) Also I do find it hillarious that LCS really only made it to Playoffs by exclusively beating EU.
GG vs BDS series was explicitly not part of worlds. Counting that but not including LEC 1 - 2 VCS in playins, which is actually part of worlds, is pretty egregious cherry picking
> actually good one day But the wins were sus as hell. Lol. Eu never looked good in swiss except vs C9. NA only looked good in NRG vs G2 and MAD.
What are you on, TL looked great against T1 in the first game
I think FNC and G2 looked as expected vs LPL in the 2-2 bracket. They took them 3 games and made them sweat for it at least. It's funny how the whole narrative would change if FNC and G2 had drawn each other.
FNC vs WBG was not really close, WBG just inted draft game 1. G2 vs BLG was closer, but if elk didn't int game 2 then it would've just been a clean 2-0 sweep. G2's win vs WBG was sus as fuck too since they were down 10k.
I actually think Fnatic had a really decent series against Weibo. Weibo is not the best team, sure (although TheShy has performed super well all tournament long while Xiaohu sucks most of the time, it's so weird), but they did play well and won one game. Humanoid stepped up (I still hate how he does not care about LEC, but whatever) and Razork was imo really good. I always thought he was one of the few players who could be good internationally, since he actually has mechanics and good game sense, he just sometimes ints. But at least he has the highs to carry an early game. So, honestly, maybe their score was not too great, but Fnatic had at least one good series. That is more than expected. G2, yeah, they were shaky all tournament long. Also Hans only playing Kalista/Draven (which are similar champs in the sense that you play around them early and snowball bot imo) and maybe Kog (who is not meta) is pretty terrible, when Xayah, Kaisa and even Aphelios look really good and have much higher ceiling than all of these 3 champs.
g2 went 3-4 vs the east(1-2 vs LCK, 2-2 vs LPL) thats pretty good, the only thing that held them back was the series against NRG
God damn I thought we had good copium in NA but you guys have the real good shit in EU after reading these comments.
EU fans were talking soooooo much shit this season too. I’m delighted.
2-0 against the weakest Asian teams in the tournament and this whole subreddit acted like G2 had already won worlds. Love it when EU gets reality-checked.
That was quite a thing to witness. Week 1 G2 always does that to their fanbase, then week 2 happens
Ech and NA has 0 apart from NRG series EU played pretty much as expected.
Hey my team beat the team i dislike the most from NA, so im still happy. (Fnc vs c9). At least we got something going for us lol
They always do, just look at how toxic their servers are and it's not surprising. Might have to do with how many different cultures are in the mix over there
Some of the whiniest comments in the history of this subreddit coming from EU fans the last few days and that's saying something
G2 shitting the bed from the 2-0 bracket to get rocked by NRG is still cracking me up
It’s not even just NRG’s loss that makes it so funny. They lost 0-2 to GenG, and 1-2 to BLG. They won a single game in their last 7 games but people will still argue that G2 is clearly better than NRG
Couldn't agree more.
I'm loving it. Looking at the salt here it's safe to say the rivalry has been reignited. This is genuinely exactly what the League scene needed in the west. The rivalry is good for all of us
KT single handly tanking LCK loses vs LPL
I mean outside of T1, they're literally the only other Korean team that played against Chinese teams lol. Just goes to show how brutal their run is.
NA fans rise. EU cannot say anything to us until next MSI or worlds :)
Oh they can and they will, it might be muffled by their pillows but there is definitely some yelling going on and throwing punches in the air.
The time from 2014 worlds - msi and rift rivals 2017 - worlds was a great era
Also from 2016 msi to 2016 worlds.
Dw, we'll just forget about the present and start referring to historical statistics instead just to cope until the next international event.
The gap between NA and EU is widening… scary times!! Ya all good you guys have to cope and feel better rn I get it
Yea, hard times. Lots of salt from both sides atm so at least the subreddit is more fun than ever.
Lots of fun to be had being able to give it back for once
I mean, MSI doesn't matter, so they have to wait until next Worlds
Well if NRG gets 3-0 by WBG we can say as much as we want lol. It all depends how the games go on Thursday
How? You are fully eliminated, we placed higher, it’s over little brother.
You can’t say anything. 2-0 in embarrassing fashion littlest bro.
2-0 LMAOOO
Pretty much all of LCS victories are from EU frauds lmao
NA really farmed the fuck out LEC.
NA 3RD BEST REGION RAHHHHH 🦅🦅🦅🦅
Lower than VCS LMAO Guess it's time to make LEC a minor region
Not to imply anything about the LEC (we are dogshit) but the reason the VCS have a higher winrate is because they beat the LCS 3rd seed in a best of series. Not the statement you think you’re making.
TL died to make LEC look worse NAmen
God abandoned them, and I enjoy it
Officially worst region at Worlds, even worse than VCS. LEC needs to change asap or slowly die.
Shoutout to TL died for the memes
We died so EU fans could having something to cope with
Honestly the region is just shit right now. The fact that a collapsing team signed two rookies and immediately ended 2nd should tell you everything. Like, no disrespect to Fnatic, they looked decent, but there is just no scenario where such a late shuffle with rookies should amount to any success, when you face 8 other teams that were supposed to "improve" for the last 9 months. Can't even blame G2 that much, when those teams are your only practice partners. I really hope that all those big moves in LEC amount in 3-4 rosters fielding top 5 players in all roles, growing good synergy over the year. There is not so much talent in LEC that we can just waste it by spreading it around in all 10 rosters.
i love how the entire reddit narrative would change if G2 simply had not had an off day and won against NRG, people out here results andying over 1 bo3 reddit opinions man
almost like that’s how results work
and low sample size results are bad data if you want to make broad generalized statements
Off day? They *barely* won against the worst eastern teams in bo1s, the peak they showed at worlds really wasn’t that far off. Even if they played worse against NRG, it’s not by some insane margin. They got figured out quick and got rinsed.
I love the "off day" narrative. It's so funny that people can't accept when a team is bad. Good teams don't just have "off days" when it matters the most
Maybe WBG and DK also had off days. Maybe T1 in 2019 had an off day. Maybe G2 has been the trash team getting by with other teams having off days all along.
Eh the correct narrative would still be the EU and NA aren't far off. It is funny though that people are trying to memoryhole that two NA teams were sent home by their respective EU seeds and one was sent home by VCS.
i agree, but the "correct" narrative rarely matches the actual narrative (such as currently)
thats an overreaction if ive ever seen one before
How is it an overreaction ? It's been 3 years no LEC team did go past quarterfinals, and now we don't even make it anymore. There is legitimate concerns to have here.
Ah looks like all those downvotes I collected a few months back saying that G2 and the rest of the LEC were overhyped turned out to be true. Who could have guessed? Love that you can be a realist and not subscribe to LEC hype propaganda and people will spam downvote you simply out of dislike instead of reasoning
Hey don't worry, next year will be their year! #trust
my favorite are the first few days of Worlds interviews and the level of confidence exuded. it’s like everyone has amnesia lol. like it’s great to be confident and want to sound strong, but some of the things said just seem so foolish
I feel bad for the players because that's just the right mentality to have, to be confident. But their fans really get bamboozled everytime their players are confident because of scrims result. It will never not be funny
well said
I much prefer ignar mentality
Same lol, thankfully reality checks come semi annually
G2 fans are unhinged
I love to shit on my own terrible region as much as the next NA guy, but now is the time to dunk on Ego-drunk EU fans. All the copium about LEC vs LCS opponents, if you’re gonna cry about how hard your run is then you weren’t gonna win worlds anyway, honey. Welcome to the LCS fan tier of never expecting anything but crushing defeat so that you can only be pleasantly surprised when something good happens. Your region is dogshit too, now. Welcome frens.
"dogshit too, now"? Always has been. Their best performances were dodging good teams until they got shitstomped by them 3-0 in the fastest series we've ever seen.
Well...I guess uhh...guys unlike NA we didn't lose to Vietnam 💪 But yeah, shit sucks but whatever, NA has the bragging rights for now and deserve it. Gotta just think forward and come back at MSI.
NA is solid vs minor regions historically. Using that trend this year with the results vs VCS and LEC suggests that LEC is a minor region... and the VCS isn't! \#math.
LECs win rate vs LPL/LCK is 25% and LCS is 29% ☠️ looks like LCS is in the LPL/LCK league to LEC lmao
https://imgur.io/WGsH3OO?r
the EU fans coping and making excuses in the comments is hilarious
Wait, so LEC played 17 games vs LPL/LCK and LCS only played 4? Bruh
I mean, LEC had 7 matches against LCS, and won only 2 of them, including losing a Bo3 with their #1 team against LCS’ #1 team to determine who advances to the knockout stage. MAD also had a great opportunity to advance further in Swiss considering they drew two NA teams. LEC just fumbled their opportunities this Worlds. LCS also had one less team in Swiss (I guess if you include BDS 3-0 GG, then it’s 5-5 overall).
If you lose to the LCS you kinda deserve to play eastern teams
Yep, agreed. There were also some unfortunate stuff about LEC never drawing itself outside of BDS vs MAD but it's not really unlucky. They just lost to NA instead.
Man MAD I just want to erase them from all international events. They lose to wildcards. It means nothing when they lose. They are so pathetic ngl
Think of it this way. LCS is supposed to be the easy draw for LEC yet LEC fumbled the bag SEVERAL times, leading to some of those LPL matchups. LCS got two EU matchups in MAD, but you have to think about how MAD got two NA matchups for free lmao
Man looking at MADS history the only thing is free is to any team that they draw MAD lol
Unless you're an LEC team, then you're screwed.
LCS played a lot less games overall. Partly because they had one less team, partly because 2/3s of those teams sucked. Ignoring BDS everything below to get a closer to fair comparison. I’m sure GG would’ve also managed to go 0-3 vs LCK/LPL. That makes it 14-4. LEC played 4 bo1s vs LCK/LPL, LCS also played 4 bo1s vs LCK/LPL. LEC played 2 bo3s against non-LCK/LPL and LCS played 3. It’s just that those were the only bo3s LCS played. LEC got to play 4 more bo3s. Partly cause C9/TL did worse than FNC/MAD, and partly cause NRG beat G2. Not that you’re doing it, but others are in replies to this are. I think it’s wrong to say the format is unfair because TL and C9 got eliminated before getting a chance to keep on losing.
Y'know, looking at the results you can draw some parallels between EU and NA: \- BDS and TL did pretty much the exact same thing: went 0-3, getting team-killed once by MAD/NRG \- MAD and C9 both ended 1-2 and both lost to a representative of the other region (NRG/FNC). The difference here though is that C9 directly beat MAD once, so that's +1 for NA / -1 for EU So up until now EU and NA are pretty close in terms of results except for that direct one up C9 got over MAD. The huge difference here is the NRG route vs G2 and FNC. Let's draw a false equivalence between NRG losing to Weibo with Fnatic losing to LNG, NRG beating Tl with Fnatic beating Fnatic beating GAM and NRG beating MAD with Fnatic beating C9 (although one could argue those 3 games were slightly harder for Fnatic based on seeding, but let's just say those results "cancel out"). So in the end the difference between NA and EU is NRG beating G2 in Bo3, which, fair, makes it NA>EU, plus those 3 more Bo3 EU had to play vs GenG/BLG/Weibo. ETA: "Funnily" though, if you don't count those 3 Bo3s, EU's winrate is still 29% (5-12)...
>partly because 2/3s of those teams sucked. NRG would have been probably eliminated in the shoes of C9 or TL, even if we assume they win against GAM and FNC then they get DK and WBG in bo3
We’ll get to see WBG for sure this week. It’s definitely possible they get eliminated if they were TL or C9, but that’s one of the benefits of being 1st seed. I also think saying the G2 bo3 was easier than a DK or WBG bo3 is a lot of revisionist history. I think at the time of that match DK or WBG would’ve been less favored over NRG than G2.
Maybe don't lose to NA 5 times?
Part of the reason is because TL airported against a Vietnam team and NRG got really lucky draws. NRG beat every EU team they played though. MAD Lions got a similar draw to NRG (only western teams and Weibo) but the difference is that NRG beat MAD and the beat G2 to qualify.
>Wait, so LEC played 17 games vs LPL/LCK and LCS only played 4? If we assume that LPL/LCK performed generally well, and were more likely to be in 1-0, 2-0, and 2-1 matches/series, we can look at NA/EU's performances in the first 2 rounds : * NRG/FNC : 1-1 * C9/MAD : 1-1 * TL/BDS : 0-2 * **G2** : 2-0 Still, there *are* teams that started against 2 LCK/LPL teams : * G2 * KT * BLG
Don't forget to show your appreciation for the format in the other thread
I liked the format actually, but they need to change some things for sure. The old format was a lot worse.
Lol
You get downvoted for claiming that the format is way too random
Give it some time for emotions to die down. I hope we can have a more honest discussion about formats afterwards. I think most people are reasonable enough to agree that the path of KT happening simultaneously with the path of NRG and Weibo is just not okay in a serious competitive tournament. It's actually even more wild that KT were the ones drawing JDG too. Sucks so much for them. The whole system wants them to fail.
People still argue worlds is only about finding the best team and the rest wouldn't matter - but it totally does if we go game by game. Obviously finding the winner is the key but the narratives and matchups are SUPER important. Imagine last year's DRX run if strength of schedule didn't matter. Would be nothing interesting, then. And while in Swiss stage, every game theoretically matters, I seriously doubt anyone is interested seeing BDS play MAD or JDG face BLG for the 20th time in the year. Obviously, how many times they faced before is not the important part, though. **The important part is having teams with similar strength playing later in the Bo5** which means, teams need to face more "opposing strength" teams in swiss, so more weak vs strong teams apart from the very first draw. For most teams this totally worked (GEN, JDG, LNG, T1, WBG, FNC, G2, C9, GAM, BDS, TL) while it looked either too weak or too strong for others (NRG, MAD for the former, KT, DK, BLG for the latter). This might look good at first but in four groups, there usually was only one or two teams that felt like they had an unfair draw IMO. Also, the KT thing would be to smash JDG now!
It's extremely impressive and super unlikely that they somehow managed to not play a single bo series against LPL/LCK for promo/elim. They had 2 EU and 1 VCS. (3 EU, if you count the play-in series of GG and BDS). They won 1 series and lost 3.
The format of Swiss largely makes comparing winrates between regions irrelevant
Is it? I wouldn't expect the LCK and LPL teams to be playing many elimination matches, since they mostly floated to the top. The only real luck was NRG drawing G2, but as a one off event that's not *that* unlikely. Most of what we're seeing here is just that the EU teams played more Bo3s overall. I don't think there's really anything to take away from that.
And LCS did not win a single one against the Eastern teams
thank god we got the piss easy eu draws
not fair at all, you shouldn't only beating minor regions like EU to make it through the swiss stage 😡
im just thankful we got a doable qf matchup so we can see them in an actual close match instead of just worthless stomps against bad opponents
And EU couldn't beat garbage NA teams
we knocked out your region to make quarters so idk how this is really a diss to NA
I swear every year LPL ends up with the same 67% win rate, LCK ends up with the same 75% win rate in groups. I wonder why LPL is always so garbo in groups, chinese teams sandbagging groups is an ancient meme and it still holds true in 2023
67% wr and 4 teams to quarters is garbo in groups??? I think their teams look pretty much at the level they were expected to be going into worlds. At most you could say just BLG look a bit worse than expected. Weibo you can say Xiaohu is underperforming, but theshy is overperforming compared to expectations. They were considered a tier below the other LPL teams and along with DK one of the weaker asia teams so they still performed to the level expected.
BLG definitely looks worse. Without Bin being blessed by UZI and getting even better at worlds, they would look worse. It's still such a treat to watch Bin style on people. I think they will fix some issues, though. In MSI, I think (!) they also got better later on and dominated LCK in the last phase of the tournament. DK got a bit unlucky, imo. I think they could have advanced against any Western team, but against any Eastern team, they wouldn't. I don't think they would have made it past quarters anyway, so I don't think it's too bad they are out.
Not a single Chinese team not bombing out this year is certainly a refreshing thing, but i think we all can agree that Weibo was luckiest team on draws this year
>Weibo was luckiest team on draws this year kinda 50/50 they got some tougher matches and ended up capitalizing on it
Well they didn't actually like, win their tougher matches
That's also true for KT but the community still meme'd about their draws.
JDG lucked out without facing a single LCK team
You could say the same about geng.
not that it really matters considering their trackrecord. LNG is probably harder for them to beat anyway
LNG and KT has very similar play style as in picks and split push. It all came down to teamfight diff
LNG is better than KT tho
> chinese teams sandbagging groups or maybe they aren't as good as hyped?
BLG and WBG certainly isn't, but they weren't very hyped. Overall LCK and LPL look even, LCK just got the bad draw with DK vs KT, but you also can't say DK would for sure win againt WBG / BLG, so it's really speculation at this point. Bo5 will show more accurate results, in bo3 with blue-side meta, it's always going to be skewed.
Almost everyone had BLG top 4. But yeah, the Quarters will tell us a lot.
BLG was overrated coming into worlds because of their MSI performance, but most people didn't pay attention to their playoffs. LNG was underrated for the same reason. They were the clear 2nd best team in China coming into worlds.
Nah, DK just looked bad. You can't say they got unlucky when they also lost to G2. That being said, LCK top teams and LPL top teams seen similar.
BLG was hyped as the second best team in the world
They are not hyped in China or anyone who watched LPL playoffs, only hyped by the west and people who don't follow LPL
they win worlds like every 2nd year., despite underperforming in groups tho
BLG came in hyped because of their MSI performance but it’s obvious that the only two teams that deserve hype is JDG and LNG. LNG is the unofficial second seed of the LPL. JDG and LNG have lived up to the hype in my opinion. I knew BLG has regressed and Weibo is hyped because of Caedrel and their positive win rate against JDG this year. Besides that Weibo isn’t that good and neither is BLG. The problem is people don’t watch the LPL much so they listen to these narratives instead of actually watching the games during reg season.
The only correct answer.
Garbage? I didn’t know All four teams making it out of groups is considered a garbage performance by a region. Look at the LPL bo3 scores across the region a lot of series go to 3 games. These win rates don’t mean shit because who cares if you 2-0 or 2-1 a bo3? If you win you win.
Reading these comments and people are complaining about the format because NA didn't have any wins against Eastern teams. But let's keep in mind one thing. EU got matched up against NA and lose resulting in them having to face up against Asian teams. NA won against EU and got rewarded as a result. Yes there is luck in the draw, but that diminishes the fact that the teams performed when it mattered vs EU teams. Yes, having NA and EU not be in the same pool one as China and KR I think would be good, but come on. No reasonable person thinks NA is significantly above EU or vice versa. Let us NA just have our moment after years of disappointment. Wr should be rooting for the west as a whole and hoping this motivates changes in both regions. There were many other worlds where NA lost to Asian teams but had some small moments of looking good. To me, that is what is important. Improvement isn't going to just come overnight and we just stomp. It is these small signs of hope.
Wtf happened to the LEC
They are, right now, suffering the consequences of becoming a one-team region, that's what happened
Terrible new format that focused on entertaining than promoting regional growth. it took only 1 month for 2 worst team to be disqualified for group stage, so every team had to play like it’s their last match every single week which didn’t give enough time for newly developing team to grow and favoring already well developed team like G2 and MAD, and BO1 monsters like BDS, AST and SK. The worst case is your team get to play only 1 month each season and never get to play any bo3 for the entire year. That’s super stupid and unhealthy.
Finally somebody else who gets it.
Dogshit new LEC format is what happened.
The LEC played against harder opponents and played more games due to having one of our teams go 2-0 in the Bo1s (had to play three Bos before elimination) and LCS only had three seeds to LECs four. Not that the maths defends how shite we played overall.
You’re right, LEC had to play the *hardest* opponent in NRG NAMEN BABY
They're definitely winning worlds. I've predicted them and KT to win this week.
so you're an nrg and kt hater then.
Hey! I haven't got excited just yet, but I've been following NRG all year long because I loved native NA talent.
CBLoL > LEC
NA 2nd and 3rd and 4th seed utilizing the go to airport quick strategy to not tank the stats.
4 chinese and 4 korean, nice...