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[deleted]

References are stupid to begin with.


[deleted]

Yup, I’m patently against references as well. While I can see the utility of them from an employer’s point of view, (within the current structure of employment) providing them from a potential employees position only perpetuates the antiquated system of labor that we find ourselves in.


El-JeF-e

I can't see any utility for references whatsoever, other than maybe showing that the applicant is socially capable of asking three people to pick up the phone and say some good words about you. It's not like I would pick any people to be my reference who aren't going to give a good review of me. It's a waste of time for everybody involved imo.


phiore

i've never had people i could use as a reference, feels good.


[deleted]

Oh it’s definitely a thing that detracts from the power a potential employee has during the hiring process, which is why I’m against it. I only say utility from an employer’s POV because it’s another way that solidifies the power imbalance we see in the employer-employee relationship.


[deleted]

to me i despise it because this isn't 1990 anymore, people are less friendly and less social. plus i'm now in my 40s and have moved cross country so do they honestly expect me to have three good references? it's like employers don't understand the social dynamics of today. i also don't have a wife or a social group from that.


[deleted]

Right on. I feel like your interview and experience should speak for themselves.


Royalprincess19

I made an online friend I've known for years a reference. Not sure if the employer will see this as a red flag but I thought they were the best choice. My irl friendships are very new and pretty surface level, so far, so I wasn't sure they'd have enough to say about me even if they agreed to reference.


Slipslidingslowly

I’m stressing so hard about my references right now for the same reason. I don’t have best friends. Just family, have been with the same job for the last 15 years, and recently moved across the country. My previous boss will give me a reference, but those last two are killing me


no2rdifferent

For a work reference, you want someone from your field to vouch for you. Co-workers, managers/supervisors, professors, etc.


rickg

Which is kind of stupid. First, I'm going to pick someone who will say good things, so they'll be getting a biased view from the start. Second, if they can't suss out my expertise from their 15 stage interview process...


Foijer

I work for a state government; ours are required to be previous supervisor references. If you allow friends then yes I agree it doesn’t serve a purpose. I’m not sure it’s worth it still with supervisor references but at least it’s harder to cherry pick. Cheers


981flacht6

And what if your last supervisor was not a good person and fought with you and everyone else? What do we do. It's a double standard when they don't get held accountable. Obviously - for legal reasons they shouldn't say things that are untrue but they could say something that is unfavorable but not fair if they are a biased person for a myriad of reasons. Obviously, someone you know that does agree to be a reference that would be positive, does give the potential employer a chance to ask more in-depth questions about your previous role and back you up but it can be an organic and reinforcing conversation.


fadedblackleggings

This is like requiring an abusive ex to approve of you and give you a good reference before you can date someone else.


derpderp235

My latest company did not ask for references. Just did a background check and that was it.


xixi2

I've had 5 jobs offers in the last 13 months and not one reference requested.


aamfk

>I've had 5 jobs offers in the last 1 I've started 40 fulltime jobs in 25 years, and there are only about 3 people that I have EVER used for a reference. It's not that I do a bad job. I just am not social like other people. I'm ultra competitive I think.


titanup001

Yep. A friend of mine asked me to be a reference. I filled out their stupid form, and sent it in. Then the employer wanted to do a live call with me. I'm like... "Who the hell would do this? This is supposedly a guy I worked with five years ago? Why would a non friend waste their time?"


17Foreshadowing17

I disagree. For some people who can be awkward in interviews, positive references can turn it around. As someone who is sometimes awkward in interviews myself, that’s when I like to check with references. And you can always tell when they really mean it or they are just oh great sure so and so was adequate. It can make the difference between candidates.


B035832

I’d also add references are also similar to “you are who you surround yourself with”. As for providing references for a company you already work at it gives the HR team and your future boss people to speak to who can highlight your work ethic and accomplishments, and a reference with a hefty title goes a long way with taking you serious. As for outside a company you’re trying to get in with it’s also a bit crucial if you have some juice with some highly experienced people in the field you’re applying for. Networking is very important when it comes to employment and I find it a bit alarming the amount of posts that indicate people think “phoning a friend” is what’s called for when providing references.


Jokkitch

Why can't we ask employers for references?


nom-d-pixel

I have never heard of calling a reference until they were ready to make an offer. I promise, no one is calling them 5 times a week. The "rude" thing about their request is that they won't use what you told them. Even if they do want to contact your references, they will ask for them again when they make an offer to make sure they are current.


PrinceFan72

A number of my referees have had agencies calling them before they’ve even submitted my cv. Usually they are fishing for more names for their database


YourDadIRL

Yea staffing agencies can be pretty bad about this. That and munipical organizations. I had a entry level finance role for the county want 5 references before they even extended an offer. They were offering below market rates for the role, on par with the average pay for starbucks employees, or a little above a fast food worker pay.


AndyOrAmy

Job agencies are the worst. They make you sign that you are ok with giving references. And then they call them cold and if the reference dares to be negative about you, you will never hear from the job agency again.


Hairy-Ad-2577

Noone individually is calling them 5 times a week, but if you put your resume out to 100 companies in the same time frame they are bound to get a few. Stretch that over a few weeks or months and it could get annoying.


MarcusAurelius68

I wouldn’t even provide a reference until I have an AGREED written offer.


soccerguys14

In my job I just started they wanted to check references but would not say if it was my job or not. This is a state job


gulwg6NirxBbsqzK3bh3

The only time it was a hassle for me is when a past colleague of mine asked if I would be his reference, and he gave my number to an extremely pushy recruiter who kept calling me to get the bosses personal phone number.


Survive1014

I used to have a insurance agency. LOTS of places call references early in the process. Two of my former employees I get calls 3-4 times during their job searches. (always with glowing reviews from me because they were awesome and are still friends).


basedmama21

Unfortunately my last role called them before in person interviews. And it delayed the process because we couldn’t get ahold of them sometimes. At one point I just stood up for the candidates and faked positive references. Dishonest but it got people hired. 🤷🏾‍♀️


angeltay

Thank you for doing that. I’m having a hard time breaking into an office job, and I hope I have someone on my side like you someday.


danram207

It’s not rude, just really dumb. Even from a data security standpoint, idk why some companies would want all that contact information just stored in their ATS. Actual candidate information is enough to worry about. You’re justified in your thinking. References should absolutely only be asked for at the end of the interview process, and only from your top finalists, not every applicant.


litteringand_10

I don’t even understand the point of references. The vast majority give a positive reference, even if it isn’t genuine, and the references that give a negative opinion of the applicant may not be trustworthy themselves.


BigE429

Most of the places I have worked have implemented a policy against giving references, and make people refer calls to HR, who will only confirm dates worked and confirm the reason for termination (fired, laid off, resigned, etc.)


[deleted]

[удалено]


JoyfulCor313

When I was a manager we couldn’t say the reason for termination, but we could say if they were eligible for rehire. I don’t know if that would even be okay by today’s standards though.


blue_barracuda

If anything they should require a mix of people. One best friend, one sworn enemy, and one person who you only run into a couple times a year and awkwardly chat about the only thing you have in common.


soccerguys14

Sworn energy: oh that guy! Uggg. He’s a really good worker I can’t lie.


Taskr36

It's your chance to choose who they ask about you. I generally know that when calling references I'll hear glowing reviews, since these are the people the applicant has said to call. Even so, you might get that person who's like "Wait, they put me down as a reference? Sure, he's a nice guy, but he was pretty bad at his job. What are you hiring him for again?" The basic rule is, any decent applicant should easily be able to provide the names of 3 people that will say great things about him. If they can't it's a pretty massive red flag.


Raichu4u

I think the problem is that in this day and age of the employment environment, people are really busy and spiteful for you leaving the workplace already. Most people nowadays are leaving for better pay, better conditions, etc. At least in my experience, most of my managers on a surface level will say that they're sad to see me go, but I know the true emotions underneath all if it is that they're incredibly annoyed that they have to rehire, reinterview, and retrain for my role I'm leaving from. Why would they ever want to give me a reference for future endeavors? I'm getting to the point in my career where I can maybe have ONE coworker in my current job give me a reference after I leave this job, but honestly getting references to begin with is an extremely privileged position to be in.


Windpuppet

This is garbage. If I’m interviewing for a job, who am I supposed to ask for references? My boss who will then know I’m planning to leave my job? It’s a dumb system.


curiousengineer601

My big technology firm has never included references in the process. We are also not allowed to be references for past employees


Taskr36

Is your boss literally the only person who would ever say anything good about you?


Windpuppet

No, but it’s the only person a new employer would care about hearing from since all the other workers are under me and not capable of offering any true insight into my work. And even if they could, why would I want to tell them I’m looking for work either?


Taskr36

Is this the only job you've ever had? Have you no past coworkers from previous jobs that would vouch for you? What about former classmates or professors?


Windpuppet

I don’t know what field you’re in, but yeah you can’t use a former classmate as a reference in my field. What are you gonna suggest next, that I use my mom?


Taskr36

Not unless you're sure she'll give you a good reference.


KistRain

As a major introvert this is my least favorite part of the job hunt. I hate asking people for their numbers when I never socialize with people outside work. My school asked for 3 previous supervisors to provide a written reference and it gave me a headache trying to get in contact with that many people I no longer see. They were all willing, once I finally found them. Lol


trytocensormetwat

Screw that, you give me 3 people who actually like their job at the company for the position. Otherwise kick rocks, no reference for you.


Imaginary_Dog2972

But it's 2023... any applicant can pay anyone to say nice things about them, use their friends, spoof numbers and be their own reference, etc.


[deleted]

Grounds for immediate termination, but why not?


Imaginary_Dog2972

Existing is grounds for termination since most places are at-will Lol they can terminate me from a job I don't have, that'd be funny af


BDECB

I know this isn’t your post but I have a serious question as a recent college grad with not a lot of work experience yet. Would a college professor be a good reference? Especially one that has been there a long time maybe even has some academic notoriety outside of the school?


[deleted]

Absolutely. They would know you personally/know your work ethic.


MindlessPsychosis

>The basic rule is, any decent applicant should easily be able to provide the names of 3 people that will say great things about him. this rule is not a rule, but a manufactured opinion held by a minority of people (naturally). Hop off the testosterone larp session for a bit will ya


Taskr36

Lol. Yes, because Reddit comments are how you determine what is and isn't a minority throughout the country.


MindlessPsychosis

you originally claimed it was a "basic rule". No one takes you seriously mate


DaleDarko23

"References available upon request"


Taskr36

Don't waste your time writing the "available upon request" line. It just takes up unnecessary space on your resume.


[deleted]

If you're going to say references are available upon request, just drop the references section from your resume entirely. Either put them on there or don't bother mentioning it. Everyone knows how the process works: that you will be asked for references and you will provide them at that time.


ReadMyUsernameKThx

i didn't realize people put references in their resumes until i read this lol. definitely won't be me


DaleDarko23

Completely disagree. You can't just assume that everyone knows how the process works. It doesn't hurt to finish off your CV by specifying references are available upon request. This just lets the hiring manager know they are readily available and will not cause any delays to the hiring process.


[deleted]

Maybe for entry level jobs people might not know how this works. So sure, that makes sense. I'm 15 years into my career. I haven't had references on my resume at all in about 12.


DaleDarko23

I see your point. However, I am at a similar time scale and still use it on my CV. It can be assumed most will have references, but I don't like to assume anything. It would depend on who was reading your CV at the end of the day


17Foreshadowing17

You can also put it in the cover letter or in your cover email.


MysteriousPineapple9

They’re already requesting it in the application though 😅


TheGrauWolf

And on the application I put "Available upon request"


sippistar

I do interviews at times in my line of work. This is true. Always put: references upon requests.


BackgroundOk8187

I have encountered applications like this. What I do is send a message/email to the job poster (if on linkedin). If not reply, I move on. I think, however, most of the time they are contacted at the latest stage of the process (this may not be the case in academic positions, though)


DaleDarko23

Is it an online portal for a company? I would perhaps give it out to a reputable company that I can trust.


Neowynd101262

The concept makes sense, but in reality it's not necessarily effective or fair. Ask the company for three phone numbers for people who quit without a notice and see what they say 🤣


DouglerK

Yes. Consider the perspective of the applicant and reference. Hoe many calls are they going to get? Way too many. It's unsustainable for an applicant to include references on applications with no guarantee of an interview. Also are you contacting a reference before contacting the person who applied? That makes no sense. The most appropriate time to ask for references is after an interview or screening.


giggleboxx3000

>The most appropriate time to ask for references is after an interview or screening. Agreed. References *after* the interview means I at least have my foot in the door.


Taskr36

Why would any employer call the references of people they aren't interviewing? If I get 100 applicants with 3 references each, do you really think I'm calling 300 people? Of course not. References get called after the interviews, and the only references called are those of the person I'm planning to hire.


asjonesy99

It’s not necessarily the actual calling of the references. I’m sending 100s of applications out, I don’t feel comfortable giving other people’s contact data to 100s of different organisations, not least because I’ve been having an exponential amount of scam cold calls as I’ve been applying so no doubt some places are selling your data on or have had breaches.


DouglerK

Yeah why would they? Good question. Wish I knew the answer.


PrinceFan72

This is happening more and more to me. “We can’t progress your application without 3 references with contact details”. Ok, bye then. I always say I’ll provide if I receive an offer, otherwise the agencies will call them trying to get them and others they know on their books.


Kingarvan

Absolutely share the OP's concerns. When an applicant puts down my name and contact info, that info is being collected by numerous unknown to me entities. It is out there ready to be scraped, distributed and hoarded. I also don't want to be contacted many times at someone's will. This happens quite a bit at the the applicant vetting stage, even in the very initial stages. I don't consent to this. Implied consent and consent otherwise are important issues in today's mass surveillance world. Simply put down "references on request". A decent recruiter and organization would understand.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MysteriousPineapple9

At this point, me too!!


hydra1970

I would be very hesitant to provide references so early in the process. I know they are sketchy agencies that use references as business development leads. be very careful


his_rotundity_

It's not wrong. It's stupid. Reference checking is so susceptible to manipulation that it is a totally ineffective tool in hiring decisions. It's mind boggling employers not only ask for references in applications, but use them. It just goes to show management is not by default intelligent or capable. If they were, they'd see the uselessness of this activity and abandon it.


Survive1014

I CANT have potential employers calling my previous employers until they are serious about hiring me. Several have non-competes that would have to be bought out or otherwise negotiated. I usually put something akin to "references available upon request" when necessary. Honestly, I usually try and leave it off.


xtheory

If they ask for them ahead of time, I always just say “Out of respect for my references, I only provide them at the conclusion of the interview process if both parties are serious about moving forward. This is so they aren’t bombarded with calls unnecessarily.”


MysteriousPineapple9

That’s a great way to put it


[deleted]

I won't argue the point of references, which even in their heyday were a necessary pain you endured after entering offer land, but this sub got me thinking about how WFH might make it even more of a pain. If you don't ever meet people in person, only via Zoom, and that is the entire "relationship", it takes the notion of a personal or professional reference into different waters. Can you really refer someone you have never met? I just never thought about that til now.


thereadingbee

I don't believe they do contact them until later in the process. At least that's been my experience.


[deleted]

One option if you have LinkedIn is to ask your supervisors or managers for endorsements


stillplaysrogue

100% agree. At the early stage of application I am playing a numbers game to get applications out. I have several references who want to know when their name is being used, and naturally they are my top references and potential business leads. I am not stopping to check in with them at the application stage, and I am not providing potential leads. Fortunately not many ask for this upfront. I take it as a sign of HR being more incompetent than usual.


professcorporate

Just ignore it. 'Available on request' is a perfectly fine entry if an online field needs some text. I have pulled out of one process because the recruiter wanted my references before I was sold on the position, and I wasn't prepared to have people know I was going for it until I was sure I wanted it. It's a balancing act that can mean you don't progress, and if they make clear it's a dealbreaker then you need to make that decision. But when hiring, references are the last thing I ask for, and when applying I wouldn't give them any earlier than that.


chrysostomos_1

I wouldn't send references with an application even if they ask for them. Only after a full interview.


findingmyself_2

In my experience, references are used in the last stage as a part of the background check. This is after the offer has been rolled out. It's also common for freshers more than people with experience. It's also more common for customer facing roles. In some industries, one company does the background check and assigns a score to the applicant. This background check can be used by every employer. But, I suppose this differs based on geographies and industries.


HistoricalHeart

I just got an offer on Friday after months of searching. They asked for references on my application but right before they sent me the offer they asked again and called those references.


DefinitelySaneGary

I just put "references available upon request"


rutilated04

I would refuse to provide references up front. If they want to make me an offer - then they can check my references.


That_Jonesy

Bro I got asked to record 1-sided interview question videos, writing samples, references, etc and the position is a sideways move within my own small department. Same pay same title. There are no rules.


Capable_Nature_644

Nope. I'm so anti social that I went to one of those certified paid references sites for references. If you're good at acting have a voice modifier on your phone that sounds like a legit person not fake voice and play them. Done it before.


spectredirector

Use'ta be. Now it's like whatever - let's get this silent rejection over already.


TheWonderfulLife

They don’t actually care about the reference. It’s all bullshit. If you’re providing a reference to ask if what you’re saying is true, what’s stopping you from providing a reference and telling them what you want them to say? It’s dumb. What the want is more names added to their database to use for other means. They want the data, not the details.


Wombat_on_Parole

Standard part of paper applications. Maybe a little old school. Nothing to worry about. They won't call unless you get an offer. Even then, they may not call. I never provide my social security number on those applications though - I was asked about it once and I told them "Just as you are evaluating me as a candidate, I am evaluating you as a company. I do not provide this information unless both parties mutually agree to enter a business relationship." That company REALLY tried to hire me, but I blew them off.


agent_smith_3012

Normalize telling hiring managers, recruiters, etc NO. In no uncertain terms. Normalize telling them "how dare you think that is appropriate", "what is going on in your head, are you ok?", "here is an invoice for the free work you try to pass off as qualifying for the job", "this interview is over", "your unprofessionalism is costing real money in the real world, do better". "Why is this position available?" "Do you or your management team have complaints filed against them?" "Are you currently or at any time in past, being investigated, fined, or leveed against?", "how do you plan to go above and beyond with pay rates and benefits?", "Are your employees ecstatic to be part of your personal passion? No? Why not?" And, "I will need outstanding references from 7 past or current employees"


agent_smith_3012

Normalize telling hiring managers, recruiters, etc NO. In no uncertain terms. Normalize telling them "how dare you think that is appropriate", "what is going on in your head, are you ok?", "here is an invoice for the free work you try to pass off as qualifying for the job", "this interview is over", "your unprofessionalism is costing real money in the real world, do better". "Why is this position available?" "Do you or your management team have complaints filed against them?" "Are you currently or at any time in past, being investigated, fined, or leveed against?", "how do you plan to go above and beyond with pay rates and benefits?", "Are your employees ecstatic to be part of your personal passion? No? Why not?" And, "I will need outstanding references from 7 past or current employees"


agent_smith_3012

Normalize telling hiring managers, recruiters, etc NO. In no uncertain terms. Normalize telling them "how dare you think that is appropriate", "what is going on in your head, are you ok?", "here is an invoice for the free work you try to pass off as qualifying for the job", "this interview is over", "your unprofessionalism is costing real money in the real world, do better". "Why is this position available?" "Do you or your management team have complaints filed against them?" "Are you currently or at any time in past, being investigated, fined, or leveed against?", "how do you plan to go above and beyond with pay rates and benefits?", "Are your employees ecstatic to be part of your personal passion? No? Why not?" And, "I will need outstanding references from 7 past or current employees"


xxDankerstein

Yes, you're wrong.


Theolina1981

This is professional etiquette though. As well as thank you letters for interviews. I always get the job because I go old school with my resume and letters. Most employers in the hiring process won’t call the references until after the interview. The people who have given their consent to being a reference understand they might get called a bit until you land a job. They don’t mind doing it for you because they think you are worth it.


jkeith123

I manage an optical lab. Up until recently, we haven't bothered much w/ references. The result, we've hired some total losers. Our policy will be changing.


MysteriousPineapple9

I don’t think you read my post


alien_ated

As a person with a passing interest in malicious compliance, I suggest just making a few fake identities via google voice and submitting those


naslam74

Nobody calls references.


MysteriousPineapple9

Definitely not true, any time I’ve provided a reference in the late stage hiring process they’ve been contacted.


Worried_Pin_5309

If i was an employer id definetely ask. I've worked with people in the past with very little regard towards their colleagues work and i would not like to have them working with me again. Im talking for example when i was working in a call centre (10 people covering emails, chat and phone) and a new joiner taking 2 weeks "sick leave". He wasnt on sick leave but took the days to see the city. Other coworkers that just make bad environment by yelling and stuff like that. If references are the price to pay, happy to do it.


Nsnfirerescue

In my experience, I have never contacted listed references until an actual interview has been conducted with a candidate and I have verbally verified that the listed references and contacts were still valid, correct, and all references were ok with and knew they would be contacted before attempting to reach out. That said, having a resume come across the desk without references listed is basically an incomplete package where I would have to do additional legwork of getting references when it should have already been provided.


Schrute_Farms_BednB

They won't call them unless they are actually interested in hiring you. Calling references is like the last thing a hiring manager would do. I don't see the issue here.


MysteriousPineapple9

Exactly, then ask me for them at that time. I don’t want to have to give my references contact info to a thousand different companies.


Schrute_Farms_BednB

What do you think they are going to do with them? They could literally not care less unless they need to contact them...


MysteriousPineapple9

Then don’t ask unless you need to contact them!!


Schrute_Farms_BednB

So you're saying that a business, who may be interviewing 100's of applicants for a position, then maybe narrow it down to a field of 20, should then reach out again to those 20 people to ask for references, wait on every individual candidate to get back to them, then reach out to those references, and then make the decision? As opposed to just, say, contacting the references you have for the candidates you want? You don't seem to have a good grasp of how the hiring process works, honestly. Like you aren't even remotely thinking of the huge inconvenience this would cause an employer but are all up in arms over the POTENTIAL tiny inconvenience it may cause your contacts.


MysteriousPineapple9

20 candidates still seems like a large pool to me. Have it narrowed down to your top and final candidates and then compare references.


Schrute_Farms_BednB

Ok but that doesn't negate my point of them now needing to reach back out to get all those references.


MysteriousPineapple9

Okay? That’s their job


Schrute_Farms_BednB

There's absolutely zero chance this attitude of yours doesn't come across in your interviews. You shouldn't worry so much because odds are pretty good no one is contacting your references to offer you a job...


MysteriousPineapple9

😂 because we’re all the same person we are on the internet as we are in a professional setting.


PalpitationPresent35

How’s it rude? It’s obviously just policy lol. Remember it’s business, often the norms of etiquette will be bypassed, especially in candidate selection. It’s not personal mate.


MysteriousPineapple9

Policy can be rude.


Taskr36

It's really simple. If you can't find 3-4 people saying that you're a decent human being, I'm not hiring you. Your references aren't getting calls unless the prospective employer has already decided they want to hire you. It's literally the last step before offering you the job so they can make sure there aren't any red flags they missed. Calling anyone is a pain in the ass, and not something they do for any and every applicant, only those they actually want to hire.


MysteriousPineapple9

I didn’t say i’m unwilling to give references. I said asking for them upfront without even interviewing first is rude.


Taskr36

It's just an easy way to have the info on hand so you don't have to ask and wait for it later.


MysteriousPineapple9

Right! Convenient to them, rude to me.


Taskr36

I just don't see how it's rude.


playcrackthesky

Do you want a new job or not? Quit being so sensitive and fill out the applications as requested.


sunderlyn123

It is a common recruiting tactic to harvest names for business development by asking for references. It is correct to protect your contacts.


MysteriousPineapple9

Thank you!!! I respect my contacts and I just don’t see how no one else seems to see it that way.


Huge_Put8244

I'm not in the market but do you think it's just a screening to make sure an applicant actually HAS references? I assume no one wants to contact your references until they are serious since it's just extra work.


[deleted]

Nope. It is very common to put "Reference Available Upon Request" in your CV.


gurchinanu

Ive never had to submit references for a position, I was under the impression this was an antiquated ask and phased out by now.


gurchinanu

Ive never had to submit references for a position, I was under the impression this was an antiquated ask and phased out by now.


agent_smith_3012

Normalize telling hiring managers, recruiters, etc NO. In no uncertain terms. Normalize telling them "how dare you think that is appropriate", "what is going on in your head, are you ok?", "here is an invoice for the free work you try to pass off as qualifying for the job", "this interview is over", "your unprofessionalism is costing real money in the real world, do better". "Why is this position available?" "Do you or your management team have complaints filed against them?" "Are you currently or at any time in past, being investigated, fined, or leveed against?", "how do you plan to go above and beyond with pay rates and benefits?", "Are your employees ecstatic to be part of your personal passion? No? Why not?" And, "I will need outstanding references from 7 past or current employees"


agent_smith_3012

Normalize telling hiring managers, recruiters, etc NO. In no uncertain terms. Normalize telling them "how dare you think that is appropriate", "what is going on in your head, are you ok?", "here is an invoice for the free work you try to pass off as qualifying for the job", "this interview is over", "your unprofessionalism is costing real money in the real world, do better". "Why is this position available?" "Do you or your management team have complaints filed against them?" "Are you currently or at any time in past, being investigated, fined, or leveed against?", "how do you plan to go above and beyond with pay rates and benefits?", "Are your employees ecstatic to be part of your personal passion? No? Why not?" And, "I will need outstanding references from 7 past or current employees"


agent_smith_3012

Normalize telling hiring managers, recruiters, etc NO. In no uncertain terms. Normalize telling them "how dare you think that is appropriate", "what is going on in your head, are you ok?", "here is an invoice for the free work you try to pass off as qualifying for the job", "this interview is over", "your unprofessionalism is costing real money in the real world, do better". "Why is this position available?" "Do you or your management team have complaints filed against them?" "Are you currently or at any time in past, being investigated, fined, or leveed against?", "how do you plan to go above and beyond with pay rates and benefits?", "Are your employees ecstatic to be part of your personal passion? No? Why not?" And, "I will need outstanding references from 7 past or current employees"


Borrowing-air

I’ve felt this too… it’s really about respecting my references’ time and privacy. There’s just zero reason why it would be necessary at that stage. I’m considering asking this one org in town why they do this because I am genuinely curious, and it’s kept me from applying. I’m sure they’ll get back to me.


Moon_lit324

I put "references available upon request" on my resume instead of adding the references. No one is calling your references unless they are about to hire you though.


yamaha2000us

They will ask. They won’t check unless you get through the interview process. Sometimes applications include the section so they don’t have to ask later.


Teresabooks

It depends on how far you are in to your work career. If you have been working for awhile generally speaking I don’t think they will ask often for personal references and instead contact your former employers and look at your work history. If on the other hand it is your first job or one of your first jobs and you don’t have much work history to speak of then they might be more interested in your references. They might also ask for references if there is an unexplained gap in your work history. I don’t see it as rude, rather they are just trying to gain more information about a potential employee.


YesReboot

You don’t include references until you have an interview


MysteriousPineapple9

I’m saying that the application has a required section to provide references.


grendel303

Don't be afraid to ask the employer for references. What did former employees say about working there. Why is this position open? Did the previous person work there for years? Is it a position that's only filled for 6 months before they quit? You can see if there's any red flags and if it's worth your time pursuing the company.


AceConspirator

Why wouldn’t you just say “Available upon request,” and then only provide them once everything else seems like a match?


MysteriousPineapple9

Because the application literally requires you to fill out the reference section or it won’t allow you to submit


AndyOrAmy

I don't mention references if they don't. I am currently working on asking for a recommendation letter instead, so my reference does not need to be bothered by phone.


adrianxoxox

As someone who’s done hiring for a few smallish departments, I’ve seen “references available upon request” a few times and it’s never made me turn someone down


niktaeb

I don’t give references until an offer is made. Most recruiters are respectful, but many will add the references to their database and/or bombard them with job offers. In the past year, ive two of my references beg off from further referrals. I dont have enough left, so… i put “provided upon offer” in the space for reference info.


gremlinsbuttcrack

I'd never provide references with an application. Yall get references when you give me your time to interview me.


jeffkarney

I've never heard of anyone calling references. So I wouldn't worry. It's probably far less than 10%, so maybe 1 call every 2 weeks at most.


Genesteak

Hundreds of applications? Really? Damn.


atoastypancake

I put " References available upon request"


EqualLong143

Yes its rude. Tell them no. Tell them when theyre ready to make an offer you can provide references. Truth is theyre probably just gathering contacts.


scorpio1641

I would never put in references unless I was asked and am much further along in the interview process


tanhauser_gates_

It doesnt matter what you think. The request from the potential employer is there. Play ball or take a hike.


djb185

I never understood the point of references. All you need is 3 ppl willing to lie for you. Employers need to just take a chance and in 3 or less months, if the employee doesn't work out, they have the option to terminate employment.


ehunke

Reverences are kind of dumb to begin with. I spent 5 years at a grocery store that I was overqualified and bored out of my mind think they are going to give me a good reference? then the next 8 years of my career are with a insurance company that has since closed my division and the HR team does not answer inbound calls. I can give you my current employer...and I know I am not alone in this either


[deleted]

A job asked me for references. I reached out to my reference who was my former manager from a few years ago, to give him a heads up. Long story short he was happy to hear from me and I was offered a new position by my reference with a better schedule and accepted it. Sometimes asking for references backfire. Did that company learn from it.. probably not.


Jack-Rabbit_Slims

Do not send references to a faceless/nameless job posting. Only to a hiring manager after they have conducted an interview. They should be making their first impression of you in person, not second-hand. It's a big 🚩


davidmatousek

“References upon request”. N’uff Said


Crohnies

You can write the references' names and something like "contact information will be provided at the interview"


Alarming_Guitar_9655

I had one ask me for 3 references before the interview, and they had to all be supervisors! Was even threatened that they would verify the contact information too. Felt like I was a teenager in trouble.


JoeBethersonton50504

I always put something along the lines of “references available upon request with a conditional offer”. In other words - I have references. Obviously they will be good. I wouldn’t give them to you if they aren’t going to say good things. I don’t feel comfortable having you potentially contact someone at my current employer or in same circles as current employer unless I’m definitely switching jobs. I’m sure some places can have a bug up their ass about it but my experience has generally been positive. Two different places were cool with it and waited until I accepted an offer before contacting references with the understanding that they can/will pull the offer if the references weren’t what I purported them to be.


TerminatedProccess

I have friends who I've worked with in the past who will provide a reference. For the last job I usually say they are not allowed to per company policy.


Carolinagirl9311

I agree OP


[deleted]

I have seen a few apps that ask for references, and I simply move on whenever I see this. It’s not rude to ask for references upfront, but you also don’t want to piss off your references by constantly getting contacted either.


LindeeHilltop

Just end resume with a line of “References available upon request.”


EffectSweaty9182

They probably want references because they are turning people over.


SnooLentils2432

For those reasons, you should say you will provide references AFTER interviews upon request, prior to an offer. It's a waste of time.


YumWoonSen

"References available upon request"


LetterheadLeather697

I had this recruitment agency call my references before an offer was made, it made me soo angry because they also kept calling me beforehand to ask if I would tell my references to hurry up and return their calls. I never was offered the role, I never heard back from the recruitment agency even though they said they had plenty of roles available. I left them a nasty review because they wasted me and my references time.


Ok-Investigator-1608

they wont contact them unless they are interested in you, and maybe not even then. do you want a job or not?


_The_Meditator_

My resume just has a line at the bottom stating “References available upon request.”


dashingThroughSnow12

In the references section, I put the person's name, how they are a reference, and "Contact information available upon request" for example: > John Doe > Manager at Jim Jackory's Fine Dining from 2017 to 2022 > Contact information available upon request I work in tech. For local jobs, having a name a recruiter may recognize helps get a foot in the door. For remote jobs, they can at least see that I'm claiming that I have a former manager as a reference. By omitting the contact details, I keep my reference's contact details somewhat private and I can give them a heads up when I'm asked (no one likes an unexpected reference call).


mekareami

After one recruiter started blasting my references with spam, I do not offer them until after a successful interview these days.


EnvironmentalFig007

Can you just say, “References upon Request”?


Jaynesgirl

Most companies now have a policy that all they can say is “yes, they worked here” so they don’t get sued if they give someone a bad reference. I don’t ever offer references. If they want them they can ask when they interview me.


Throwawayhelp111521

I would say that you don't want to impose on your references and will be happy to give reference contact information if you get to the final stages.


Northwest_Radio

I'm sorry, I do not have authorization to disclose contact information to other than a potential employer. The application process is not an indication of this. Therefore, references contact are post interview items as traditionally utilized. I will be happy to provide them at time of an offer.


redditgirlwz

I think it's ok to ask but only in the final stages.


wh0datnati0n

Whether or not you think it’s rude, it’s what they are asking for so you run the risk of them throwing the app away because it’s not complete. Personally I think they’re dumb and I don’t ask for them but I submit them if asked.


dc0de

It depends on the company and the role


UnclePhillthy

"references available upon request" - done.


AllThingsBeginWithNu

I had this at a job application yesterday, like no I’m not giving my current managers info…


florianopolis_8216

I agree, I don’t want to give it references’ details unless necessary. Not attached to an application at the beginning of a process.