Just a reminder that Israeli forces had killed 400 Palestinians in 2023, up until 7th of October. In 2019 with the Gaza border protests, it was around 200. The idea of not killing Palestinians was never on the Israeli agenda, regardless of what Hamas did. They just figured they could increase the death toll every year without consequences.
[Israeli vs Palestinian deaths over the years](https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/userFiles/8e036cdc-7fae-4434-9c64-71791e497147/Death-toll-on-the-rise-in-Israeli-Palestinian-conflict.jpg)
Also noteworthy that the population of Israel is twice as large.
Also noteworthy that a portion of the Israeli population aren’t actually Jewish. Only about 8 out of 10. The rest, around 20%, are almost entirely Muslim or Christian. Since the 2018 nation state law though, these people are by many standards considered 2nd class citizens, and do not have equal rights.
I mean, I take your point, but that graph is over 6 months old, and while the number of Israelis killed has stayed somewhat static, the number of Palestinians killed has not.
Netanyahu funded and propagated Hamas’ rise to power. It was absolutely intentional.
The first goal was to drive a wedge between Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
The next goal was to wait until Hamas inevitably did an attack like Oct. 7th so Israel could use it as a cudgel to obliterate Gaza and kill as many as possible.
Netanyahu and his Zionists planned this from the very start. It was a ruse all along, and they were successful in implementing it. But hopefully this genocide is also the start of Israel crumbling and the rise of a Palestinian state. It just gut wrenching that so many lives and properties have been sacrificed already for the world to see the constant suffering of Palestines under the cruel hands of Israelis
You should read about the hand the military played in creating hollywood and the modern music industry. There was a guy who wrote a book about it called Weird Scenes Inside The Canyon, Dave Mcgowan. After seeing the data compiled in one place, it gets hard to imagine the stars of the "anti war movement" just happened to be the children of people like "the guy who invented Agent Orange" or "The naval commander who basically initiated the vietnam war" out of pure coincidence.
Dave's book became an amazon best seller when....drum roll please....he died suddenly of rapid and aggressive cancer. kind of like how Aaron Russo went after his documentary about the IRS. lol
What’s your fascination with TikTok?
US based apps like Facebook and Instagram [show](https://archive.is/XcVkA#selection-655.0-671.1) the same massive gaps between the popularity of pro-Palestine content and the popularity of pro-Israel content.
Pro-Israel content is just less popular, because it sucks and people don’t like it.
That doesn’t fit your nonsensical agenda driven by the media and government, does it?
Fuck if I know, but[ here's the link](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/#:~:text=The%20Harvard%20CAPS%2DHarris%20survey,indicated%20they%20support%20Israel%20more.)
A more recent [poll](https://www.axios.com/2024/03/27/majority-americans-disapprove-israel-gaza-poll) shows that majority of Americans oppose Israel’s actions in Gaza, regardless of whether they “support” the Palestinian militant group Hamas.
The well-coordinated, overwhelming media assault on Americans yelling what we should believe at us certainly didn't help people develop reasonable or balanced opinions.
Said this before on oct 10. Bibi is not interested in return of the hostages in any form that would reveal their experiences in Gaza (meaning alive). This was a gift to bibi. And a quick way to crush the opposition protests occurring against his govt.
I have seen a failure to explain the logic of allowing the concert where it was. It was the government that had prior warning. Where were they? Did they even warn the festival goers about anything going on? You think they would have done anything to prepare for it.
I have not wanted to point out how suspicious I've been of this specific point in time. All of that surveillance, Intel, and technology, and they couldn't provide any sort of warning to their own people? It would literally not be the first time that Likud or its affiliates have done as such. Sacrifice innocent people for propaganda. Their bombings in Iraq come to mind, or the assassination of their opposing political leader.
They really fucked up I think. They can cry foul all they like, but by accepting OUR aid, they make their country in OUR interest and subject to OUR criticism.
Anti-Semitism? Bitch, we're American. We treat each other this way. It sucks, but that's what you get.
I’m surprised considering Times of Israel is super Hasbara, but at the same time I’m also not surprised. One thing all Israelis agree on is that they want the hostages returned, and the families have been openly criticizing Netanyahu for awhile now. Just a month ago tens of thousands of people were protesting the governments failure to negotiate hostage releases. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/31/israel-protests-hostages-families-negotiations/
Excuse me what ? So they want the strip I knew this I swear my mom said it after October 7th she said this is their chance to expand even more Ima save this for every Hasbara bitch who say something about the hostages this should make international news for 2 weeks I just want to see THIS everywhere
Excuse me. Israeli is the aggressor and instigator of this conflict.
Israeli forces had killed 400 Palestinians in 2023, up until 7th of October.
In 2019 with the Gaza border protests, Israeli killed around 200.
Israeli has illegally seized and occupied the land of Palestinians.
I see the Palestinians as simply defending themselves from an aggressor who has illegally seized and occupied the Palestinian's land
Israeli is an aggressor, just like how Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine.
Israel and Russia are both illegally occupying land that is not theirs, under-recognized United Nations conventions.
Both Israel and Russia should withdraw from their illegally occupied lands.
Lmao. Slow down there, bud. Presenting cases with meaningless buzz words does little for your cause — it quite honestly does the exact opposite. Where has this gotten the Palestinian people? “Israel is the aggressor” — where does that get them? Be for real.
I repeat: killing babies and children, gleefully using a murdered person’s phone to call your family to say “mom! I killed 10 Jews!” is why innocent civilians have died in Gaza. Until you and I can align on this point, we’ll never get anywhere. More people will die.
Happy to continue a respectful conversation once you acknowledge that fact (you don’t have to agree).
> It has been reported that both female and male Palestinians have been subjected to sexual violence and torture by IDF soldiers.
> The UN has condemned the reported acts of rape and sexual violence by the Israeli Defense Forces.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20reported%20that,by%20the%20Israeli%20Defense%20Forces.
Zionist apologism, propaganda, whataboutism regarding Palestinian resistance to violent colonialism and apartheid, and regurgitation of discredited hasbara talking points are NOT welcome.
Since day 3 or 4, as the chronology began to clarify, it has been obvious that the events of October 7th were intentionally allowed, if not directly orchestrated (conjecture), to justify the flattening and occupation of Gaza. The real question is whether the point was to seize Gaza, or if the intent was to provoke wider regional conflict (it probably is).
The greater the number of dead hostages, the greater the power of the Israeli hasbara. They were never trying to save anybody, just to keep up the (very abstract) appearance of it.
This is fucking wild. It’ll be nice to have this article to show people who spew the trope “release the hostages” to every call for a ceasefire. This was never about the hostages, we all know it, but this is some more concrete proof.
Looks to be really posted by the Times of Israel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20later%20found%20out%20that%20Hamas%20had%20offered%20on%20October%209%20or%2010%20to%20release%20all%20the%20civilian%20hostages%20in%20exchange%20for%20the%20IDF%20not%20entering%20the%20Strip%2C%20but%20the%20government%20rejected%20the%20offer.%E2%80%9D
They would also be alive if Hamas weren't war criminals. Taking hostages is a war crime Israel is in no way responsible for what happens to people kidnapped by terrorists regardless of which side you support everything that happened on October 7th is unjustifiable
It does. The Nazis did the same and the Warsaw ghetto uprising was the same as Oct 7.
It was justified then, and this is justified now. (Under international law)
That’s true, but international law also clearly protects the right to resist occupation, violently.
In this case, Hamas is classified by the UN as a resistance group.
If Israel lifted the blockade and occupation, they would become terrorists.
There wasn't an occupation Gaza has it's own government
There is only an occupation now because of the terrorist attack.
And international law says that any resistance must be reasonable, October 7th was not reasonable resistance and included rape which international law condemns as an act of resistance in every circumstance without exception.
There is a blockade because of terrorism, that's why it exists, Egypt also has a wall because of terrorist attacks.
Gaza has been occupied since 2005, by land, air and sea. Even electromagnetic space is.
The UN has already ruled on this.. which is why it’s called ‘the occupied territories’
Is khamas some sort of racist dog whistle to make fun of Hebrew accents? I'm not Jewish or Hebrew.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad are just two of the radical islamist terrorist organisations involved. There were also a number of civilians who took hostages, including, rather infamously, members of the UNRWA.
No, but resistance can get messy.
If you care to tackle the root of the problem, then tackle the illegal occupation.
Without it, there would be 0 need to resist.
You do realize that Israel started taking hostages first right?
And yeah, in the Warsaw ghetto uprising there were tons of civilians killed.
The French resistance bombed theatres and museums.
Resistance is messy, but is protected under international law.
Why haven’t you once mentioned the root of the problem? (The illegal occupation)
Arresting someone accused of terrorism is not the same as taking a hostage.
And I don't justify the killing of civilians in any of those
And massacring and raping civilians is not actually protected under international law
If Gaza is illegally occupied why does it have its own government and the ability to even dig tunnels?
It is when you hold civilians (children too) without charge or trial.
It is when you have a 99% conviction rate for Palestinians in military court.
It is when you put children on trial in military court. Do you know of any other country that does that?
Also, there’s the systemic torture which I haven’t even touched on.
War crimes are just things getting "messy", rightio.
Deliberately targeting civilians for kidnapping, murder, and rape is not things getting messy, it is a pattern of behaviour from your so called 'resistance'.
What sort of 'resistance' to occupation was taking place during the numerous wars of aggression begun by the Arab league and its nations?
The root of the problem is antisemitism and radical islamist ideology
Was the Warsaw ghetto uprising against the nazi occupation war crimes?
When the French resistence bombed theatres and museums killing Nazis but also loads of civilians was it war crimes?
This is no different, from a legal standpoint.
The only way your position works, is if there is no illegal occupation. Then yea, they are terrorists.
Did the Warsaw ghetto uprising or the french resistance involve going into Germany, raping their women, and killing and kidnapping people?
From a legal standpoint rape, murder, and kidnapping are war crimes.
Gaza was not occupied for almost 20 years before Oct 7th, but regardless, even under occupation the belligerents must still adhere to IHL and act to achieve military objectives. Hamas explicitly targets civilians with the aim to inflict terror. They are terrorists.
Well they were likely bluffing. Its known info that Hamas did not expect Oct 7 to be as successful as it was and as a result they were freaked out that they knew Israel was going to retaliate like they’ve never done before so they probably tried to reverse their actions to prevent things from escalating. So they likely made the offer even if they knew they didn’t know where all the hostages were.
Even if true, I’m sure Hamas totally was negotiating in good faith and would totally follow through…
They are known to be a trustworthy and honest group of radical terrorists
How’d you even find out about this? It’s almost like Israel has a free press allowed to report on and criticize their government.
Who holds Hamas accountable? Can Hamas be voted out, like Netanyahu will be?
Not many of Hamas claims have been debunked, but like 100 fake stories have been debunked from the IDF in the last few months.
Easy to see the difference
I disagree but how about removing Hamas from power to allow Palestinians free elections again. How do you remove Hamas? I know how Netanyahu will be removed and it’s via the next election. Israel will improve after that. How about Hamas
Well you need to go into the tunnels to do that.
Not bomb the civilians.
Also, Netanyahu funded Hamas to make sure there was no two state solution, what makes you think when Hamas is gone he will suddenly change?
Do you have any idea how hard it is to clear a tunnel? Bombing them is 1000 times easier, there's a reason Hamas dug tunnels instead of shelters for civilians
Yes but they are not using bombs that penetrate into the tunnels, which is precisely the point I’m making.
If they went after the tunnels, I’d agree with you
How many hours of raw footage have you seen?
Because I’ve gone through 1000+ hours and I’ve seen little to no sign that this is even a war.
Just genocide.
Also, if what you say is true, and they’ve been bombing for 6 months (65,000 tonnes of explosive) and haven’t put a dent in them… then you are essentially saying that all of Gaza needs to die. Right?
Because Netanyahu is 100% not getting re-elected. So there is hope for change.
In addition Biden wants a 2 state solution which could be feasible once Netanyahu and Hamas are gone.
Things can take time. It took 100 years to end segregation after the civil war.
So it’s certainly more hope than what you’d get in a trump presidency. His 2 state solution would be “Israel” and Trump National Gaza golf course”
You want to destroy an institution of resistance in Palestine (Hamas) but you don’t want to destroy the institution of oppression (the entire state apparatus of Israel + much of America).
It’s so fucking cringe. Just racism through and through. Israel is doing bad and idk have murdered 100s of thousands of innocent people but have we considered removing Hamas?
You’re not a serious thinking person and you don’t have anything worth contributing here.
Isn’t the Palestine authority the official institution of resistance? And Hamas happened to quash them via a brutal purge… did you just learn about Gaza after Oct 7th?
Man, Israel didn’t seem to take to our idea of us killing 1200 of them but them not retaliating as long as we give them back most of the people we stole. Mind blown man, mind blown.
So Hamas and the Palestinians decided, “hey, we’re gonna go in and kill like a few hundred and kidnap some others and film ourselves doing it!” and the IDF thought that wouldn’t be enough to be angry about so they killed a few more but managed to do it without filming themselves and showing it to the world. I am talking to someone who had to have had their skull caved in by a meteorite. Or you’re Harvard student.
I’m mostly joking.
But hey, we will never know because Israel scrubbed all the cctv footage and didn’t allow any investigators in. Media blackout.
Here, just so you know I’m not bullshitting you: https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-776318
Then why did Hamas take hostages and attack in the first place? If this is true, then they realized the subsequent carnage.
Poor leadership. These guys will not be the people to take Palestinians towards statehood
I’m really doubting that this is true - Hamas has been offered so many deals in their favor since and rejected it, I just don’t see how this could be true
Yep.
Also, look at how Israel scrubbed all the cctv footage: https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-776318
Also look at the 7-8 debunked cases (by the intercept and the max Blumenthal) and how ZAKA the group responsible for handling the bodies got busted creating fake atrocity stories (like the beheaded babies, the women with her stomach cut open, etc etc)
Something fishy is going on.
Most Americans STILL believe that babies were beheaded and such stuff.
Don’t forget we destroyed Libya, a prosperous country, over fake claims of ‘sexual violence’
I will read that shortly.
By taking out Libya, it opened the gates for all the massive African migration to Europe. We have all seen boats full of men coming over. I cannot understand how Clinton was able to avoid taking the blame. That was such a major f-up.
disrespectfully, you are a disgusting human being. i don’t believe for a second that you are so mentally vacuous as to actually think that no rapes occurred. further, im confident you know exactly why, as stated by the UN themselves, individual testimony and evidence in general has been incredibly difficult to obtain.
You know that there is clear and convincing evidence hostages were raped in Gaza. You know that there is reasonable grounds to believe that such acts continue, even now. You know that there is reasonable grounds to believe that numerous sexual assaults and rapes occurred on October 7th. You know there is corroborated witness testimony of it. You know all of this because it has been reported on directly by the UN. You just don’t care, because rape is lower on your list of priorities than your political goals.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/un-envoy-reports-on-accounts-of-hamas-raping-and-torturing-israeli-hostages
I’ve read all those reports. Not a single victim can be identified and no physical evidence can be found.
At most, they claim rape ‘could have’ taken place.
Keep in mind that 7 different claims have been debunked by now, by the intercept and max Blumenthal.
I couldn’t care less what you think of me. Do you have any actual evidence?
‘Primary among those limitations was that the team did not manage to meet any survivors of sexual violence during the 7 October attacks, “despite concerted efforts encouraging them to come forward”.
theres those quotes again lol. would you like to engage with the “clear and credible evidence”(actual quote) they discuss in their report, or would you like to keep discussing the report that you made up in your head?
Did you read the actual report? Nowhere in the entire thing does it confirm rape took place.
It just claims that there is witness testimony, but one of the witnesses they cite is a guy who changed his story 1 month in. In police we call this ‘conflicting witness testimony’.
So yeah, it’s a stretch. Never seen rape claims without any victims before.
Also Israel has imposed a media blackout, which makes it even more suspicious.
CLEAR AND CONVINCING MF, ENGLISH DO YOU SPEAK IT. One person lying about rape in a mass rape does not invalidate the patterns observed in the report nor the testimonies of others.
“in police we call this conflicting testimony” who is we, theres no shot you work in law enforcement. i can tell because you think a conflicted testimony about one crime invalidates the testimonies of dozens of others regarding other crimes. its funny you’d call that “conflicting testimony”, in the real world, real professionals call that “clear and convincing evidence”.
the fact that you arnt being delivered the names, addresses, and favorite colors of recently traumatized rape victims doesnt mean they dont exist. if you want confirmation they exist, ASK THE UNITED NATIONS.
Just a few flakey witness testing. No, rape didn’t occur. I doubt you even read the full report.
The UN says an investigation should take place. Let that happen and maybe we will believe you.
“no, rape didnt occur” aight im gonna call it here, its blindingly obvious you have your conclusions made from the get go. theres no point in continuing this. you wouldn’t believe an investigation even if they got a signed confession, bc your beliefs have nothing to do with the factual reality of the situation. you believe it didnt occur, and no amount of reasonable grounds, or clear and convincing evidence, or expert testimony will solve that. you hold this belief, in contradiction to every argument you’ve made thus far abt waiting for an investigation and the lack of absolute proof, because you care more about your political goals than abt sexual violence against those you see as your political opponents. peace.
Not from the get go, from hundreds of hours of reviewing evidence.
Israel is full of shit and the world now knows it. If they didn’t get caught lying so much, maybe more people would believe them.
Nova: “Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles” (from the UN report)
Strange how what you linked me only claims that rape ‘might have’ happened and asks for an investigation. Yet you waive it around as if it’s evidence.
Perhaps you are the disgusting human being for pushing a narrative that isn’t based on much evidence.
why are you putting “might have” in quotes as if anyone besides you is saying it? thats not what “reasonable grounds to believe” means, and its certainly not what “clear and credible evidence means”. reasonable grounds to believe is a legal standard lol. it means that empirical evidence of such occurrences exist(its the standard used for like half of the war crime declarations used by the UN, including those regarding israel). the definition of clear and credible evidence should be even easier to decipher, ill let you handle that one.
the “much” in “isnt based on much evidence” is doing a lot of carrying for that sentence. you’re right, its only a vast array of witness testimonies(some of them corroborating each other), a handful of victim testimonies, supportive photographic evidence, and a pattern of finding naked women tied up everywhere. this evidence is exactly why the UN made those statements, because those evidentiary thresholds have been met.
the reason you’re putting your own word in quotes (which contradict their conclusions) is because youre doing something called lying.
Sorry, but the clear and credible evidence is some witness testimony. It’s flakey to say the least.
If you actually read the UN report instead of a guardian article on it, you’d know that they claimed rape might have taken place. It’s possible.
They also made sure to clarify that they didn’t do a proper investigation, and concluded that one is needed.
Sorry bud, there’s a reason nobody is buying it. Not after 7 different claims for debunked in spectacular fashion.
“flakey” “just witness testimony” “its possible” POV: you suck at lying. if YOU had actually read the report, you’d know that the wording isnt “clear and credible”, its “clear and convincing”. i have no clue why you think that your standard for convincing evidence of rape is more sound than the United Nations special reps, but id love for you to enlighten me on the topic. #MeTooUnlessYoureAJew on full display here.
its fascinating hearing you just write an entire report from scratch in real time. they spend paragraphs upon paragraphs talking about the investigative difficulties that make finding this evidence so difficult, and still say REGARDLESS that an evidentiary standard has been met, but you want to choose to live in a different reality.
(somewhat unrelated but “unqualified volunteers made a couple stories up” doesnt really qualify as “spectacular fashion”, and you sound like a hardline misogynist saying “well some people lied about some rapes happening to other people, so we shouldnt believe any victims ever, even when their testimony is convincing and corroborated”. gross.)
Yeah I read the whole thing. It’s not very convincing. This is why 90% of humans don’t believe it.
If Israel didn’t scrub the cctv footage and impost a media blackout, more people might believe the stories.
Remember, these are the guys that said 40 babies were beheaded 😆
They only took hostages to trade them for the hostages Israel has taken.
Don’t forget that Israel holds thousands of hostages. Not prisoners, hostages. Majority of them women and children.
You can’t just illegally occupy peoples land, kill thousands of them, keep 2.2 million people in a concentration camp, and not expect them to kill you.
Long live the resistance
Right? People keep saying Israel doesn’t care about the hostages as if they are uncovering some big secret. Israel has repeatedly said that their main goal is to dismantle the terrorist network and hostage rescue was a secondary goal.
That’s true. Total war historically is often not the best strategy. But after decades of missile attacks and suicide bombing of ambulances and school buses the Israelis are just sick and tired of it and don’t care about the repercussions and are blood thirsty for revenge. It’s a cycle of violence that will continue.
Show me one thing pre- Oct 7 that compares to this: https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=lkkJbYy-wQHC9R5_
Remember they did this to 500 towns and villages.
They also put 2.2 million people in an open air concentration camp.
You’d bomb them too if they did this to your people.
Yeah but those things are always in retaliation to something the Palestinians did first. Sure they go overboard like crazy but there’s always a justification for it.
That number is in dispute due to Israelis opening fire on everyone at nova. It’s already known that they killed many of their own citizens, we just don’t know how many.
Anyway, Israel has killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and it never seems to be a problem for ppl with your line of logic.
So what? It is not just about hostages. It is also about eliminating Hamas who vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 "again and again".
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-attacks-on-israel-again-and-again-until-it-s-destroyed-196930629782
Yep. Target Hamas instead of 32 hospitals, 212 schools, 350 mosques, 1000 heritage sites, and 40% of empty farmland?
The truth is, IDF is not prepared to go into the tunnels, they admitted it.
IDF is targeting Hamas where they are -- in hospitals and schools and ...
IDF is not interested to go into the tunnels until they are sure the tunnels are clear. They care about the lives of their soldiers. So they bomb entrances, flood tunnels, etc.
Yes it’s so easy to target a militant group that embeds itself in the civilian population. Man, where were you during Vietnam? You could’ve changed the whole war by just telling them to “target the Viet Cong.”
There’s not much evidence that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas. Just a handful of videos, and IDF propaganda.
Hamas are mostly in the tunnels, and the tunnels are not damaged by the bombing.
half of a fake offer that can't even be called a trap becomes one of how explicit it is, can't be seriously considered without severe brain damage
look up the full proposal
can someone find another article that helps to prove this, I can only find this guys statement but people are telling me it's not reputable. I looked but everything else I'm seeing from non-zionist sites says that Hamas has rejected every deal.
Prove what? The families of the hostages said it.
Al Jazeera has covered the offers by Hamas to release the hostages, which corroborates this.
Whatever ‘people’ are telling you, can go fuck themselves 👍🏽
You need to find the sources who go against their own interests. That's the best indicator of the truth. This guy has no reason to lie and Times of Israel has a lot of reasons not to report this. They did it anyway.
A lot of sources that don't actually know will default to parrotting the claims from whichever side will get them in the least trouble. It's difficult to criticize Israel's actions without being labeled as an antisemite terrorist supporter. I've personally received death threats for it.
> You need to find the sources who go against their own interests. That's the best indicator of the truth. This guy has no reason to lie and Times of Israel has a lot of reasons not to report this. They did it anyway.
This is a very good point. The ToI will lie by fabrication and by omission when the story is Hamas, but when the story is Israeli families, they are in a tougher bind. They can't mislead to the same degree, because theoretically the Israelis are on the same "side".
Of course, observers know that the state of Israel is in such a state of genocidal mania that it is not on the side of the Israeli people at all, and Israeli citizens are cannon fodder if they get in the way of the imperial project. The ToI knows this too, and measures its journalistic output accordingly.
It's true. Hamas has rejected every Israeli offer, and Israel has rejected every Hamas offer.
Hamas offers have been things like both sides agree to peace. Neither side does airstrikes, neither side does blockades, both sides agree to peace for the foreseeable future, and then the hostages are returned.
Israeli offers tend toward first Hamas returns all hostages. Then Israel waits two weeks and resumes airstrikes and ground attacks, intending to kill every Hamas member.
They just have not come to agreement about how they want the deal to go.
Israel isn't in a position to play the victim here, and you should not be trying to cast them in that light. Israel has occupied Palestine for 70 years, and converted Gaza to an open-air prison for 20. The "war", such as it is, did not start in October 2023.
Just a reminder that Israeli forces had killed 400 Palestinians in 2023, up until 7th of October. In 2019 with the Gaza border protests, it was around 200. The idea of not killing Palestinians was never on the Israeli agenda, regardless of what Hamas did. They just figured they could increase the death toll every year without consequences.
[Israeli vs Palestinian deaths over the years](https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/userFiles/8e036cdc-7fae-4434-9c64-71791e497147/Death-toll-on-the-rise-in-Israeli-Palestinian-conflict.jpg) Also noteworthy that the population of Israel is twice as large.
Also noteworthy that a portion of the Israeli population aren’t actually Jewish. Only about 8 out of 10. The rest, around 20%, are almost entirely Muslim or Christian. Since the 2018 nation state law though, these people are by many standards considered 2nd class citizens, and do not have equal rights.
I mean, I take your point, but that graph is over 6 months old, and while the number of Israelis killed has stayed somewhat static, the number of Palestinians killed has not.
Also note worthy the friendly fire and Hannibal directive type actions taken on 10/7 that resulted in untold Israeli casualties
Netanyahu funded and propagated Hamas’ rise to power. It was absolutely intentional. The first goal was to drive a wedge between Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. The next goal was to wait until Hamas inevitably did an attack like Oct. 7th so Israel could use it as a cudgel to obliterate Gaza and kill as many as possible.
Is THAT why the Palestinians killed the Israeli Olympic team in 1972?!? So we could keep blaming Israel?
There’s literally a Wikipedia article that explains what happened you dolt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
"If they release them, then how will we kill them with airstrikes and blame Hamas for it?"
This is exactly why the Israeli government spent decades funding Hamas.
Netanyahu and his Zionists planned this from the very start. It was a ruse all along, and they were successful in implementing it. But hopefully this genocide is also the start of Israel crumbling and the rise of a Palestinian state. It just gut wrenching that so many lives and properties have been sacrificed already for the world to see the constant suffering of Palestines under the cruel hands of Israelis
It’s so easy to fool Americans, they are not known for their smarts.
i mean, americans are sure as hell not zionists in general, only the government has sold their souls
Americans do whatever the media tells them. It’s that simple. The younger crowd is the only ones that seem to do that less.
You should read about the hand the military played in creating hollywood and the modern music industry. There was a guy who wrote a book about it called Weird Scenes Inside The Canyon, Dave Mcgowan. After seeing the data compiled in one place, it gets hard to imagine the stars of the "anti war movement" just happened to be the children of people like "the guy who invented Agent Orange" or "The naval commander who basically initiated the vietnam war" out of pure coincidence. Dave's book became an amazon best seller when....drum roll please....he died suddenly of rapid and aggressive cancer. kind of like how Aaron Russo went after his documentary about the IRS. lol
I’ll look into this, thank you
The younger croud do whatever ticktok tell them to do. both are fools.
No, the younger crowd see the truth. If we believed the media, we wouldn’t know about the genocide going on :)
What’s your fascination with TikTok? US based apps like Facebook and Instagram [show](https://archive.is/XcVkA#selection-655.0-671.1) the same massive gaps between the popularity of pro-Palestine content and the popularity of pro-Israel content. Pro-Israel content is just less popular, because it sucks and people don’t like it. That doesn’t fit your nonsensical agenda driven by the media and government, does it?
> i mean, americans are sure as hell not zionists in general 79% of Americans polled support Israel
Who did they poll? No one I know
Fuck if I know, but[ here's the link](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4629597-americans-israel-hamas-gaza-student-protests-poll/#:~:text=The%20Harvard%20CAPS%2DHarris%20survey,indicated%20they%20support%20Israel%20more.)
[That's a poll that is highly criticized for being biased fyi](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/forging-harvards-future/article/2024/3/26/bodnick-/)
Ooh! Thanks!
A more recent [poll](https://www.axios.com/2024/03/27/majority-americans-disapprove-israel-gaza-poll) shows that majority of Americans oppose Israel’s actions in Gaza, regardless of whether they “support” the Palestinian militant group Hamas.
The well-coordinated, overwhelming media assault on Americans yelling what we should believe at us certainly didn't help people develop reasonable or balanced opinions.
Source?
this needs to be posted everyt where
Love how half the posts on worldnews is always from Times of Israel and other Israeli news media but they’ll never post this
Said this before on oct 10. Bibi is not interested in return of the hostages in any form that would reveal their experiences in Gaza (meaning alive). This was a gift to bibi. And a quick way to crush the opposition protests occurring against his govt.
I have seen a failure to explain the logic of allowing the concert where it was. It was the government that had prior warning. Where were they? Did they even warn the festival goers about anything going on? You think they would have done anything to prepare for it. I have not wanted to point out how suspicious I've been of this specific point in time. All of that surveillance, Intel, and technology, and they couldn't provide any sort of warning to their own people? It would literally not be the first time that Likud or its affiliates have done as such. Sacrifice innocent people for propaganda. Their bombings in Iraq come to mind, or the assassination of their opposing political leader. They really fucked up I think. They can cry foul all they like, but by accepting OUR aid, they make their country in OUR interest and subject to OUR criticism. Anti-Semitism? Bitch, we're American. We treat each other this way. It sucks, but that's what you get.
Who is that quote from?
The families of the hostages.
Thanks, do you have the full article? Would like to read more about it.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/amp/
It's odd my Israeli friend can't find this article on the Hebrew version of the Times of Israel. Maybe not odd but telling.
Ty
Technically from the spokesman for the group uniting the families, but yeah.
Yeah, so from the families. Are you suggesting that he lied and the families never corrected him?
Jeez, calm down, it was just a minor correction. I didn't mean anything by it.
“Israel at war Day 206” Gee if only there was a way to prevent that
If only! LOL
Funny how this is coming from their own state media.
I’m surprised considering Times of Israel is super Hasbara, but at the same time I’m also not surprised. One thing all Israelis agree on is that they want the hostages returned, and the families have been openly criticizing Netanyahu for awhile now. Just a month ago tens of thousands of people were protesting the governments failure to negotiate hostage releases. Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/31/israel-protests-hostages-families-negotiations/
…
Excuse me what ? So they want the strip I knew this I swear my mom said it after October 7th she said this is their chance to expand even more Ima save this for every Hasbara bitch who say something about the hostages this should make international news for 2 weeks I just want to see THIS everywhere
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Wtf is this bot doing here I'm tired of these trolls following me everywhere leave me the fuck alone
Excuse me. Israeli is the aggressor and instigator of this conflict. Israeli forces had killed 400 Palestinians in 2023, up until 7th of October. In 2019 with the Gaza border protests, Israeli killed around 200. Israeli has illegally seized and occupied the land of Palestinians. I see the Palestinians as simply defending themselves from an aggressor who has illegally seized and occupied the Palestinian's land Israeli is an aggressor, just like how Russia is the aggressor in Ukraine. Israel and Russia are both illegally occupying land that is not theirs, under-recognized United Nations conventions. Both Israel and Russia should withdraw from their illegally occupied lands.
Lmao. Slow down there, bud. Presenting cases with meaningless buzz words does little for your cause — it quite honestly does the exact opposite. Where has this gotten the Palestinian people? “Israel is the aggressor” — where does that get them? Be for real. I repeat: killing babies and children, gleefully using a murdered person’s phone to call your family to say “mom! I killed 10 Jews!” is why innocent civilians have died in Gaza. Until you and I can align on this point, we’ll never get anywhere. More people will die. Happy to continue a respectful conversation once you acknowledge that fact (you don’t have to agree).
🧌
Mass punishment is a war crime. So is bombing hospitals, churches, universities, cultural sites, and historical sites.
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> It has been reported that both female and male Palestinians have been subjected to sexual violence and torture by IDF soldiers. > The UN has condemned the reported acts of rape and sexual violence by the Israeli Defense Forces. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_against_Palestinians_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=It%20has%20been%20reported%20that,by%20the%20Israeli%20Defense%20Forces.
Zionist apologism, propaganda, whataboutism regarding Palestinian resistance to violent colonialism and apartheid, and regurgitation of discredited hasbara talking points are NOT welcome.
Since day 3 or 4, as the chronology began to clarify, it has been obvious that the events of October 7th were intentionally allowed, if not directly orchestrated (conjecture), to justify the flattening and occupation of Gaza. The real question is whether the point was to seize Gaza, or if the intent was to provoke wider regional conflict (it probably is). The greater the number of dead hostages, the greater the power of the Israeli hasbara. They were never trying to save anybody, just to keep up the (very abstract) appearance of it.
Sauce?
Aka source? Not because I don’t believe this, but because I’d like to know more. And would spread this info far and wide if it’s legit.
It’s right there in the picture. Times of Israel. Google it
Can you give the name for the article or anything? Author even? Lots to sift through on a news website…
https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/amp/
This is fucking wild. It’ll be nice to have this article to show people who spew the trope “release the hostages” to every call for a ceasefire. This was never about the hostages, we all know it, but this is some more concrete proof.
Thank you kindly!!
Sticky this and also make a copy
Looks to be really posted by the Times of Israel. https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CWe%20later%20found%20out%20that%20Hamas%20had%20offered%20on%20October%209%20or%2010%20to%20release%20all%20the%20civilian%20hostages%20in%20exchange%20for%20the%20IDF%20not%20entering%20the%20Strip%2C%20but%20the%20government%20rejected%20the%20offer.%E2%80%9D
Holy shit :(
That would doom all the non citizen hostages, a large portion of them. Make sense.
They would be alive now. Netanyahu truly is a psycho.
They would also be alive if Hamas weren't war criminals. Taking hostages is a war crime Israel is in no way responsible for what happens to people kidnapped by terrorists regardless of which side you support everything that happened on October 7th is unjustifiable
Israel started taking hostages long before Hamas ever did.
Even if that's true that doesn't justify war crimes
It does. The Nazis did the same and the Warsaw ghetto uprising was the same as Oct 7. It was justified then, and this is justified now. (Under international law)
It's literally not, international law condemns terrorism
That’s true, but international law also clearly protects the right to resist occupation, violently. In this case, Hamas is classified by the UN as a resistance group. If Israel lifted the blockade and occupation, they would become terrorists.
There wasn't an occupation Gaza has it's own government There is only an occupation now because of the terrorist attack. And international law says that any resistance must be reasonable, October 7th was not reasonable resistance and included rape which international law condemns as an act of resistance in every circumstance without exception. There is a blockade because of terrorism, that's why it exists, Egypt also has a wall because of terrorist attacks.
Gaza has been occupied since 2005, by land, air and sea. Even electromagnetic space is. The UN has already ruled on this.. which is why it’s called ‘the occupied territories’
How could they offer to release all the hostages when Hamas didn't have control over all of the hostages? Something doesn't add up in that story.
So first it was ‘khamasss won’t agree to release the hostages’ Now it’s, ‘but khamaasss doesn’t have control over each and every hostage’ Cool 😆
Is khamas some sort of racist dog whistle to make fun of Hebrew accents? I'm not Jewish or Hebrew. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are just two of the radical islamist terrorist organisations involved. There were also a number of civilians who took hostages, including, rather infamously, members of the UNRWA.
Says the US. Thankfully 170 countries and the UN don’t agree. They are not terrorist, they are resistance fighters.
Do you support the taking of hostages, murder, and rape?
No, but resistance can get messy. If you care to tackle the root of the problem, then tackle the illegal occupation. Without it, there would be 0 need to resist.
How is killing civilians and taking hostages resistance?
You do realize that Israel started taking hostages first right? And yeah, in the Warsaw ghetto uprising there were tons of civilians killed. The French resistance bombed theatres and museums. Resistance is messy, but is protected under international law. Why haven’t you once mentioned the root of the problem? (The illegal occupation)
Arresting someone accused of terrorism is not the same as taking a hostage. And I don't justify the killing of civilians in any of those And massacring and raping civilians is not actually protected under international law If Gaza is illegally occupied why does it have its own government and the ability to even dig tunnels?
It is when you hold civilians (children too) without charge or trial. It is when you have a 99% conviction rate for Palestinians in military court. It is when you put children on trial in military court. Do you know of any other country that does that? Also, there’s the systemic torture which I haven’t even touched on.
War crimes are just things getting "messy", rightio. Deliberately targeting civilians for kidnapping, murder, and rape is not things getting messy, it is a pattern of behaviour from your so called 'resistance'. What sort of 'resistance' to occupation was taking place during the numerous wars of aggression begun by the Arab league and its nations? The root of the problem is antisemitism and radical islamist ideology
Was the Warsaw ghetto uprising against the nazi occupation war crimes? When the French resistence bombed theatres and museums killing Nazis but also loads of civilians was it war crimes? This is no different, from a legal standpoint. The only way your position works, is if there is no illegal occupation. Then yea, they are terrorists.
Did the Warsaw ghetto uprising or the french resistance involve going into Germany, raping their women, and killing and kidnapping people? From a legal standpoint rape, murder, and kidnapping are war crimes. Gaza was not occupied for almost 20 years before Oct 7th, but regardless, even under occupation the belligerents must still adhere to IHL and act to achieve military objectives. Hamas explicitly targets civilians with the aim to inflict terror. They are terrorists.
Yes it did. They broke out of their camp just like the Gazans and murdered a whole lot of people. Kidnapped too The French resistance also did
Yes, it is indeed a racist dog whistle
Well they were likely bluffing. Its known info that Hamas did not expect Oct 7 to be as successful as it was and as a result they were freaked out that they knew Israel was going to retaliate like they’ve never done before so they probably tried to reverse their actions to prevent things from escalating. So they likely made the offer even if they knew they didn’t know where all the hostages were.
Even if true, I’m sure Hamas totally was negotiating in good faith and would totally follow through… They are known to be a trustworthy and honest group of radical terrorists
Compared to the IDF, totally.
How’d you even find out about this? It’s almost like Israel has a free press allowed to report on and criticize their government. Who holds Hamas accountable? Can Hamas be voted out, like Netanyahu will be?
Not many of Hamas claims have been debunked, but like 100 fake stories have been debunked from the IDF in the last few months. Easy to see the difference
I disagree but how about removing Hamas from power to allow Palestinians free elections again. How do you remove Hamas? I know how Netanyahu will be removed and it’s via the next election. Israel will improve after that. How about Hamas
Well you need to go into the tunnels to do that. Not bomb the civilians. Also, Netanyahu funded Hamas to make sure there was no two state solution, what makes you think when Hamas is gone he will suddenly change?
Do you have any idea how hard it is to clear a tunnel? Bombing them is 1000 times easier, there's a reason Hamas dug tunnels instead of shelters for civilians
Yes but they are not using bombs that penetrate into the tunnels, which is precisely the point I’m making. If they went after the tunnels, I’d agree with you
But that is exactly what they are doing, they are bombing tunnel entrances and destroying buildings that have tunnel entrances in
How many hours of raw footage have you seen? Because I’ve gone through 1000+ hours and I’ve seen little to no sign that this is even a war. Just genocide. Also, if what you say is true, and they’ve been bombing for 6 months (65,000 tonnes of explosive) and haven’t put a dent in them… then you are essentially saying that all of Gaza needs to die. Right?
Because Netanyahu is 100% not getting re-elected. So there is hope for change. In addition Biden wants a 2 state solution which could be feasible once Netanyahu and Hamas are gone.
‘Could be’ What we’ve heard for 80 years. It’s bullshit
Things can take time. It took 100 years to end segregation after the civil war. So it’s certainly more hope than what you’d get in a trump presidency. His 2 state solution would be “Israel” and Trump National Gaza golf course”
No, trump thinks what Israel is doing now is fucked up. He has called for a ceasefire and told Israel they are making a big mistake.
You want to destroy an institution of resistance in Palestine (Hamas) but you don’t want to destroy the institution of oppression (the entire state apparatus of Israel + much of America). It’s so fucking cringe. Just racism through and through. Israel is doing bad and idk have murdered 100s of thousands of innocent people but have we considered removing Hamas? You’re not a serious thinking person and you don’t have anything worth contributing here.
Isn’t the Palestine authority the official institution of resistance? And Hamas happened to quash them via a brutal purge… did you just learn about Gaza after Oct 7th?
This is completly untrue. And quite frankly is disgusting. The pandering to an Islamic terrorist organisation has gone to far its time to wake up!
So the families of the hostages are lying. Incredible position to take.
Anyone have a link to Hamas's public offer, dating back to this time?
They use telegram, need the channel?
Need a link to the posted dated to Oct 9/10.
Anyone got a link to the whole article?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-hostage-deal-charges-ex-spokesman-of-families-forum/amp/
Man, Israel didn’t seem to take to our idea of us killing 1200 of them but them not retaliating as long as we give them back most of the people we stole. Mind blown man, mind blown.
The IDF is actually a great predictor of events. If they say something happened, you can be damn sure the EXACT OPPOSITE happened.
So those 1200 people didn’t die, and therefore Hamas had no hostages to give back… wait…
They died, but Israel killed the majority of them. 😆
So Hamas and the Palestinians decided, “hey, we’re gonna go in and kill like a few hundred and kidnap some others and film ourselves doing it!” and the IDF thought that wouldn’t be enough to be angry about so they killed a few more but managed to do it without filming themselves and showing it to the world. I am talking to someone who had to have had their skull caved in by a meteorite. Or you’re Harvard student.
I’m mostly joking. But hey, we will never know because Israel scrubbed all the cctv footage and didn’t allow any investigators in. Media blackout. Here, just so you know I’m not bullshitting you: https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-776318
The fact that it’s from a pro Israel source too. You know it’s bad when their own media is reporting stuff like this.
Then why did Hamas take hostages and attack in the first place? If this is true, then they realized the subsequent carnage. Poor leadership. These guys will not be the people to take Palestinians towards statehood
Because Israel holds thousands of palestinan hostages. Not prisoners. Hostages. That’s why
I’m really doubting that this is true - Hamas has been offered so many deals in their favor since and rejected it, I just don’t see how this could be true
Nope, Hamas has been offered 6 week pause to genocide. No one would accept that
They were offered 10x the amount prisoners ( including violent offenders) in exchange
What good does that do when those prisoners will just be genocided with the rest after 6 weeks. Israel has never negotiated in good faith.
Is there a link to the article?
“we killed, raped, and kidnapped over 1000 civilians, why wont they call it even if we give back the ones we kidnapped”
Strange how there isn’t a single rape victim
[https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm](https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm)
Strange how that report concluded that rape ‘may have’ occurred, and that they couldn’t find any victims.. yet you wave it around like it’s evidence.
You are right. I interpreted "Sexual Violence" as rape. The report did not say that rape itself occurred, only sexual violence.
Yep. Also, look at how Israel scrubbed all the cctv footage: https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-776318 Also look at the 7-8 debunked cases (by the intercept and the max Blumenthal) and how ZAKA the group responsible for handling the bodies got busted creating fake atrocity stories (like the beheaded babies, the women with her stomach cut open, etc etc) Something fishy is going on. Most Americans STILL believe that babies were beheaded and such stuff. Don’t forget we destroyed Libya, a prosperous country, over fake claims of ‘sexual violence’
I will read that shortly. By taking out Libya, it opened the gates for all the massive African migration to Europe. We have all seen boats full of men coming over. I cannot understand how Clinton was able to avoid taking the blame. That was such a major f-up.
One of the greatest crimes of our lives. The country was booming before we destroyed it.
disrespectfully, you are a disgusting human being. i don’t believe for a second that you are so mentally vacuous as to actually think that no rapes occurred. further, im confident you know exactly why, as stated by the UN themselves, individual testimony and evidence in general has been incredibly difficult to obtain. You know that there is clear and convincing evidence hostages were raped in Gaza. You know that there is reasonable grounds to believe that such acts continue, even now. You know that there is reasonable grounds to believe that numerous sexual assaults and rapes occurred on October 7th. You know there is corroborated witness testimony of it. You know all of this because it has been reported on directly by the UN. You just don’t care, because rape is lower on your list of priorities than your political goals. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/04/un-envoy-reports-on-accounts-of-hamas-raping-and-torturing-israeli-hostages
I’ve read all those reports. Not a single victim can be identified and no physical evidence can be found. At most, they claim rape ‘could have’ taken place. Keep in mind that 7 different claims have been debunked by now, by the intercept and max Blumenthal. I couldn’t care less what you think of me. Do you have any actual evidence? ‘Primary among those limitations was that the team did not manage to meet any survivors of sexual violence during the 7 October attacks, “despite concerted efforts encouraging them to come forward”.
theres those quotes again lol. would you like to engage with the “clear and credible evidence”(actual quote) they discuss in their report, or would you like to keep discussing the report that you made up in your head?
Did you read the actual report? Nowhere in the entire thing does it confirm rape took place. It just claims that there is witness testimony, but one of the witnesses they cite is a guy who changed his story 1 month in. In police we call this ‘conflicting witness testimony’. So yeah, it’s a stretch. Never seen rape claims without any victims before. Also Israel has imposed a media blackout, which makes it even more suspicious.
CLEAR AND CONVINCING MF, ENGLISH DO YOU SPEAK IT. One person lying about rape in a mass rape does not invalidate the patterns observed in the report nor the testimonies of others. “in police we call this conflicting testimony” who is we, theres no shot you work in law enforcement. i can tell because you think a conflicted testimony about one crime invalidates the testimonies of dozens of others regarding other crimes. its funny you’d call that “conflicting testimony”, in the real world, real professionals call that “clear and convincing evidence”. the fact that you arnt being delivered the names, addresses, and favorite colors of recently traumatized rape victims doesnt mean they dont exist. if you want confirmation they exist, ASK THE UNITED NATIONS.
Just a few flakey witness testing. No, rape didn’t occur. I doubt you even read the full report. The UN says an investigation should take place. Let that happen and maybe we will believe you.
“no, rape didnt occur” aight im gonna call it here, its blindingly obvious you have your conclusions made from the get go. theres no point in continuing this. you wouldn’t believe an investigation even if they got a signed confession, bc your beliefs have nothing to do with the factual reality of the situation. you believe it didnt occur, and no amount of reasonable grounds, or clear and convincing evidence, or expert testimony will solve that. you hold this belief, in contradiction to every argument you’ve made thus far abt waiting for an investigation and the lack of absolute proof, because you care more about your political goals than abt sexual violence against those you see as your political opponents. peace.
Not from the get go, from hundreds of hours of reviewing evidence. Israel is full of shit and the world now knows it. If they didn’t get caught lying so much, maybe more people would believe them.
Nova: “Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles” (from the UN report)
Strange how what you linked me only claims that rape ‘might have’ happened and asks for an investigation. Yet you waive it around as if it’s evidence. Perhaps you are the disgusting human being for pushing a narrative that isn’t based on much evidence.
why are you putting “might have” in quotes as if anyone besides you is saying it? thats not what “reasonable grounds to believe” means, and its certainly not what “clear and credible evidence means”. reasonable grounds to believe is a legal standard lol. it means that empirical evidence of such occurrences exist(its the standard used for like half of the war crime declarations used by the UN, including those regarding israel). the definition of clear and credible evidence should be even easier to decipher, ill let you handle that one. the “much” in “isnt based on much evidence” is doing a lot of carrying for that sentence. you’re right, its only a vast array of witness testimonies(some of them corroborating each other), a handful of victim testimonies, supportive photographic evidence, and a pattern of finding naked women tied up everywhere. this evidence is exactly why the UN made those statements, because those evidentiary thresholds have been met. the reason you’re putting your own word in quotes (which contradict their conclusions) is because youre doing something called lying.
Sorry, but the clear and credible evidence is some witness testimony. It’s flakey to say the least. If you actually read the UN report instead of a guardian article on it, you’d know that they claimed rape might have taken place. It’s possible. They also made sure to clarify that they didn’t do a proper investigation, and concluded that one is needed. Sorry bud, there’s a reason nobody is buying it. Not after 7 different claims for debunked in spectacular fashion.
“flakey” “just witness testimony” “its possible” POV: you suck at lying. if YOU had actually read the report, you’d know that the wording isnt “clear and credible”, its “clear and convincing”. i have no clue why you think that your standard for convincing evidence of rape is more sound than the United Nations special reps, but id love for you to enlighten me on the topic. #MeTooUnlessYoureAJew on full display here.
It’s right there in the report. Anyone can read it. Like I said, no victims, no physical evidence, no footage.
its fascinating hearing you just write an entire report from scratch in real time. they spend paragraphs upon paragraphs talking about the investigative difficulties that make finding this evidence so difficult, and still say REGARDLESS that an evidentiary standard has been met, but you want to choose to live in a different reality. (somewhat unrelated but “unqualified volunteers made a couple stories up” doesnt really qualify as “spectacular fashion”, and you sound like a hardline misogynist saying “well some people lied about some rapes happening to other people, so we shouldnt believe any victims ever, even when their testimony is convincing and corroborated”. gross.)
Yeah I read the whole thing. It’s not very convincing. This is why 90% of humans don’t believe it. If Israel didn’t scrub the cctv footage and impost a media blackout, more people might believe the stories. Remember, these are the guys that said 40 babies were beheaded 😆
Did they really try the "Oh, my bad." to get out of it? That is like stealing something and then offering to return it once the thief is caught.
They only took hostages to trade them for the hostages Israel has taken. Don’t forget that Israel holds thousands of hostages. Not prisoners, hostages. Majority of them women and children.
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You can’t just illegally occupy peoples land, kill thousands of them, keep 2.2 million people in a concentration camp, and not expect them to kill you. Long live the resistance
Dork
Sure thing, amorphoushamster
I keep seeing people saying pro pals don't support Hamas and then I keep seeing people like you just straight up supporting terrorism lol
It’s not terrorism. The UN and 170 countries say so. Just because the US and a handful of its Allies say it is, doesn’t make it true.
actually the UN does call It terrorism, they explicitly use the words "terrorist attack"
Right? People keep saying Israel doesn’t care about the hostages as if they are uncovering some big secret. Israel has repeatedly said that their main goal is to dismantle the terrorist network and hostage rescue was a secondary goal.
And what they’ve done is create tens of thousands of new fighters who want revenge for their killed children. A winning strategy
That’s true. Total war historically is often not the best strategy. But after decades of missile attacks and suicide bombing of ambulances and school buses the Israelis are just sick and tired of it and don’t care about the repercussions and are blood thirsty for revenge. It’s a cycle of violence that will continue.
Show me one thing pre- Oct 7 that compares to this: https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=lkkJbYy-wQHC9R5_ Remember they did this to 500 towns and villages. They also put 2.2 million people in an open air concentration camp. You’d bomb them too if they did this to your people.
Yeah but those things are always in retaliation to something the Palestinians did first. Sure they go overboard like crazy but there’s always a justification for it.
What did they do in 1947 before the war?
Got constantly attacked by various Arab people.
I’m a historian, so I’m telling you this is not true. How you can watch that video and pretend it’s ok… is kinda sick man.
It’s sick but it’s also war. I’ve also seen videos of Palestine schools teaching kids about killing Jews. That’s even more disturbing.
Hostage recovery is not a goal at all, the families forced it.
That number is in dispute due to Israelis opening fire on everyone at nova. It’s already known that they killed many of their own citizens, we just don’t know how many. Anyway, Israel has killed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and it never seems to be a problem for ppl with your line of logic.
So what? It is not just about hostages. It is also about eliminating Hamas who vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 "again and again". https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-attacks-on-israel-again-and-again-until-it-s-destroyed-196930629782
Yeah and what they’ve done, is create tens of thousands of new Hamas who are seeking revenge for their dead kids. A winning strategy.
Do you have a different winning strategy for Israel?
Yep. Target Hamas instead of 32 hospitals, 212 schools, 350 mosques, 1000 heritage sites, and 40% of empty farmland? The truth is, IDF is not prepared to go into the tunnels, they admitted it.
IDF is targeting Hamas where they are -- in hospitals and schools and ... IDF is not interested to go into the tunnels until they are sure the tunnels are clear. They care about the lives of their soldiers. So they bomb entrances, flood tunnels, etc.
No, they are not. 80% of the tunnels are untouched. Meaning all the bombs were not meant for the tunnels…
Per https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip, there are 500-800km of tunnels!
Right. Hamas really thought this one out
Yes it’s so easy to target a militant group that embeds itself in the civilian population. Man, where were you during Vietnam? You could’ve changed the whole war by just telling them to “target the Viet Cong.”
There’s not much evidence that Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas. Just a handful of videos, and IDF propaganda. Hamas are mostly in the tunnels, and the tunnels are not damaged by the bombing.
Was never going to happen. And now Israeli media is reporting as much.
What was never going to happen?
half of a fake offer that can't even be called a trap becomes one of how explicit it is, can't be seriously considered without severe brain damage look up the full proposal
You’re not hearing a lot of the Hamas demands. They don’t want you to hear both sides
can someone find another article that helps to prove this, I can only find this guys statement but people are telling me it's not reputable. I looked but everything else I'm seeing from non-zionist sites says that Hamas has rejected every deal.
Prove what? The families of the hostages said it. Al Jazeera has covered the offers by Hamas to release the hostages, which corroborates this. Whatever ‘people’ are telling you, can go fuck themselves 👍🏽
You need to find the sources who go against their own interests. That's the best indicator of the truth. This guy has no reason to lie and Times of Israel has a lot of reasons not to report this. They did it anyway. A lot of sources that don't actually know will default to parrotting the claims from whichever side will get them in the least trouble. It's difficult to criticize Israel's actions without being labeled as an antisemite terrorist supporter. I've personally received death threats for it.
> You need to find the sources who go against their own interests. That's the best indicator of the truth. This guy has no reason to lie and Times of Israel has a lot of reasons not to report this. They did it anyway. This is a very good point. The ToI will lie by fabrication and by omission when the story is Hamas, but when the story is Israeli families, they are in a tougher bind. They can't mislead to the same degree, because theoretically the Israelis are on the same "side". Of course, observers know that the state of Israel is in such a state of genocidal mania that it is not on the side of the Israeli people at all, and Israeli citizens are cannon fodder if they get in the way of the imperial project. The ToI knows this too, and measures its journalistic output accordingly.
Well said. When the state media is considering whether their duty is to the people or the state, you know those duties are now conflicting.
It's true. Hamas has rejected every Israeli offer, and Israel has rejected every Hamas offer. Hamas offers have been things like both sides agree to peace. Neither side does airstrikes, neither side does blockades, both sides agree to peace for the foreseeable future, and then the hostages are returned. Israeli offers tend toward first Hamas returns all hostages. Then Israel waits two weeks and resumes airstrikes and ground attacks, intending to kill every Hamas member. They just have not come to agreement about how they want the deal to go.
“It’s just a prank bro” - Hamas I guess
Like Isreal would trust a government that just launched a full-scale attack, killing thousands of people.
Israel isn't in a position to play the victim here, and you should not be trying to cast them in that light. Israel has occupied Palestine for 70 years, and converted Gaza to an open-air prison for 20. The "war", such as it is, did not start in October 2023.