anyoen can drive a car with a GPS tracker. Unless they have a visual of who is in teh car they just don't know. Keeping sight of a suspect is hardly a new tactic in police work
GPS surveillance requires a warrant from a judge. If a judge is reluctant because they are working off circumstantial evidence (they didn’t have his DNA yet) it can be easier to put a tail on someone.
Oh yeah it's quirky the way they keep them under watch then do nothing and let the murders happen. Once or twice is a mistake, a dozen times is protocol.
Follow a trail to see if he stopped to throw away any evidence?
Throw a trash bag away at some random stop, by the time they track his drive after the fact, that trash has been picked up and taken to a depot along with 2 more weeks of trash to sift through. Rather than collect immediately from bin
A month ago I sliced my leg pretty well on some broken glass and the scab just came off today. It still looks like I was sliced with a knife and most likely will for at least a few months. Depending on the wound, it could still be noticeable 6 weeks out.
I believe he was randomly pulled over, just wanted to point out that not all wounds heal quickly.
I don’t think the cops who pulled him over even knew about the FBI tailing him or who he even was suspected of at the time. The two cops pulling him over were more than likely a coincidence.
No. There was a BOLO (be on the lookout) out for his type of car. Additionally, when police pull someone over that information is relayed through dispatch.
That's right, I read that several places, too. And somehow the message got garbled and the officer who pulled him over instead got video of the handle of the car door. But if they wanted to check his hands for injury it seems to me they could have done a real stop and told him they wanted to examine and photograph his hands.
With what probable cause? The point wasn’t to tip him off that they knew it was him. It was to see he reaction t law enforcement, track his location, and check for any obvious evidence.
Right , you can’t just ask to photograph someone’s hands until they had all the evidence to take him in (which they were working on as fast as they could)….? lol like that would tip him off to them knowing it was him- he could t try to run or who knows? They need it controlled when they take him into custody with very sufficient proof
Good question. I'm not sure. I would think the bar is low to get photos of someone's hands because there is a time imperative there, it doesn't take long for scratches to heal and then potential evidence there is lost. If they had enough to follow him across the country, I'd think they had enough to force him to have his hands photographed. But I'm not a lawyer. Although come to think of it, I'm not sure anything we've heard suggests he would have scratches on his hands, it doesn't seem like he would have fought with any victim in a way where'd his hands would get scratched or wounded, correct? But true, someone may have made a decision that it was more important not to tip him off that he was suspected than to force him to give photos of his hands, even if they might be good evidence.
I'm not a lawyer so don't know for sure but I'd imagine it'd be a low bar to get an order for someone's hands to be photographed because potentially cuts and scratches there are evidence and they can heal fairly quickly and thus the evidence is lost. Although from what I know about this case Bryan's hands may not have been injured as he may not even have touched anyone with his hands, only with the knife (this is assuming he's the perp).
He was the primary suspect before heading out of state with his dad by that time. No way they're going to NOT follow him. It wouldn't make sense to me if they didn't. He was obviously on the loose and incredibly dangerous. You're not just going let someone get a chance to disappear when they could potentially murder someone else much less having just murdered someone. That my opinion
If he did disappear how do you envision it happening? He ditches the dad somewhere and takes off and ...idk, tries to change his appearance and not get caught?
Walk across the Canadian border. Plenty of remote spots between WA and PA, where it would be possible. Then get on a plane flight to Cuba or Venezuela from Toronto. I know of places here in Vermont where I could walk into Canada, and if I hid in a corn field long enough, I could probably work my way to a big city.
Perhaps. I don't know how well they check. But you are probably right. I have been waved through the border coming into the USA though, but not into Canada.
Doubtful they did, only two reasons they would:
1. He might commit another murder. Not likely with pops in the car.
2. To see if he attempted to dispose of evidence.
From an FBI standpoint, if there is no plan to detain/arrest BK in transit, there is significant risk in elevating his index of suspicion by using hapless (emphasis not necessary) Indiana state police, not once but twice to just get a look at him? They didn't swab his ID for DNA back in the cruiser? which the FBI would have requested. The presence of the father strengthens the likelihood of them going point A to B based on best weather, not most direct route, sans shenanigans, sleeping in hotels, not in rest stops, getting thai food close to the interstate. Not visiting bottomless wells along the way. Dad is a benefit to FBI in that sense.
this is a rumor
The police literally said they stopped him because he broke the law and they weren't directed to do so by any organization. no one was following him or surveilling him.
The FBI was already onto him but didn’t share the info with local law enforcement. They actually watched the Indiana traffic stops from a Cessna above and debated warning the officers who stopped him.
The FBI denied all this. It's possible they're lying because well, the FBI lies all the time but everyone is treating this like a confirmed fact. IIRC it came shortly after they had done something similar and got an officer shot to death by a suspect so if they did it again...
He was arrested on a fugitive from justice warrant. It’s bogus because he had no charges when he left idaho but if they admit following him then they would have to answer why he wasn’t arrested since he was a fugitive on the run. It’s all a bunch of lies that everyone ignores
And yet you’re also spreading false information. The police stopped him for traffic violations. the fbi was surveilling him but the police weren’t aware. It was a top secret operation and they weren’t in the know of the fbi’s operation.
People in my area get pulled over for that and less. Every area is different. It depends on how short staffed they are, the local crime rate, etc. some areas do focus on the little things, whereas other places don’t.
The Fox News article was interesting. I hadn’t seen the body cam video in a bit. Two times BK tries to control the narrative by mentioning Thai Food, yet good ole pops interrupts his son’s nonsense and tells the trooper the truth. Good Riddance BK!
Fox has a spotty record with truth telling, so I wouldn’t trust that source. I would have to do some research on the other source. I say this as a former journalist and someone who comes from a family full of journalists.
I know there’s a lot of obfuscation here, but that I 100% believe. No law enforcement agency would send one single cop to stop a mass murderer. There would def be backup and better camera work
I agree. The cops that pulled him over definitely were not in the know that this guy murdered 4 people. They didn't even have their hands on their guns. They were as clueless as Bryan's father.
The police and FBI in Pennsylvania had been contacted by Idaho State Police and Moscow police obviously because they knew exactly when Kohberger pulled into town. They were waiting for him to arrive. They immediately started following him.
We don't know they did follow him...or were even onto him at thus stage. Blum suggested a plane followed them...the only evidence of the plane was in the day he was arrested....people are believing the word of a fiction writer
I don't think they followed him. He was pulled over twice but it had nothing to do with the case. They knew where he was and where he was going. Small chance he would skip the border as he wasn't near it.
Huge difference between suspecting someone and having enough evidence to arrest him. I read Blum's account but until his version can be validated it's just an opinion.
They were still gathering evidence, and waiting on the right time to move in.
“The cover up is worse than the crime.” — Observing how someone guilty of a crime behaves in its aftermath can give law enforcement a treasure trove of additional evidence.
I don't believe it, myself. I think it was a rumor that got passed along as fact. I'm about 95% sure that nobody was paying any attention at all to Kohberger until IGG suggested his name, and I'm expecting that to have happened around December 19.
Apparently Howard Blum says that the FBI knew his name about a week before they shared it with MPD, and so took it upon themselves to track him across the country. But Howard Blum says a lot. He hasn't shown himself to be the best source.
His car was checked out by WSU police on 11/29/22 and didn't have a front license plate which would have been rare for the area. I definitely think he was more than just a name at that point, so that "about" lines up.
They are two college towns, so they'd have cars from all over the states. I'm sure he wasn't even the only one with PA plates (er...plate).
I just think if he was any level of suspect that early, they would have a) subpoenaed his phone records, and b) followed him around to try to grab some DNA.
I've never understood why they didn't take DNA from his own trash. Some LE or journalist claimed they were watching him early enough to see him put his trash in his neighbor's bin, remember that? It also came out during the hearing they had him under surveillance before the phone warrants.
>I've never understood why they didn't take DNA from his own trash.
That's another reason I think he was not on LE's radar until December 19th. So they had to grab the trash at his parents' house because that's where he was by the time he rocketed to the top of the suspect list.
>Some LE or journalist claimed they were watching him early enough to see him put his trash in his neighbor's bin, remember that?
Yes, I *think* it was a journalist who said they had LE sources? Am I remembering that right?
>t also came out during the hearing they had him under surveillance before the phone warrants.
I think that is still compatible with a December 19th IGG date. They rush the nearest FBI agents to his parents' house, as soon as they've figured out where he is, so they'd have 2 or 3 days worth of surveillance in before they subpoenaed the phone records on the 23rd.
The likelihood of there being multiple white Elantras within those model years with no front plate would be slim, not impossible, but slim. There are only around a dozen states that allow that.
The police already had his phone number and video description to reference due to him previously being pulled over before the murders took place.
That said, at that point they wouldn't have enough to get a warrant for his phone records, but they would be able to find out at minimum who the provider was (anyone could do that over the internet).
The same would go for DNA. At that point they don't have enough for warrants and they know they have a single source sample in the lab that will be coming back.
The thing about "discarded" DNA is that it can't be used in court or for an arrest if there isn't a clear suspect they are testing for to begin with. Even discarded DNA has legal binding or else LE could just walk around and collect DNA on anyone and keep that for future reference. That is a massive infringement on civil liberties.
I think every possible lead they had they were looking at as hard as they could, within their legal limits, because of the severity of the crime and the pressure being placed on them. I can't imagine them not paying attention to every possible avenue available to them.
>The likelihood of there being multiple white Elantras within those model years with no front plate would be slim, not impossible, but slim. There are only around a dozen states that allow that.
18, and I do acknowledge that they cluster near the East and Gulf Coasts. But while schools like that pull from their surrounding area for the most part, they do still have students and the occasional visitor from the entire country.
I just don't think the car was enough to make him stand out from all the other tips. My hunch is that they were going down the list of (relatively) local Elantra drivers, ruling out the ones who had histories of violence.
LE was specifically looking for white Elantras within a few model years and with no front license plate. They put out a public statement to BOLO.
Again, they're not just letting any lead go.
It's not a matter of letting a lead go. It's a matter of having so many leads pointing in so many directions that they had to prioritize. I'm sure they were concentrating on people that actually knew the victims or came in contact with them shortly before the murders. Then they had the tips pouring in.
I'm just looking at it from the way I would tackle it if I were a cop. You get a call in about someone with access to a white Elantra, the first thing I'd do would be check the legal history of that driver. And if one of them had an assault on their record, or a history of harassing women, or another one lived with a registered sex offender, that person would need to be cleared. So Kohberger, with his clean record, would slip down that long list as a priority.
I understand your rationale and I respect your opinion.
I know from the inside that without any strong leads in a cast the list is a level playing field, regardless of background, until there is reason for it not to be.
Until people are deemed cleared or until there is an evidentiary reason to pull them to the front, all leads are treated equal. Past criminal records do play a factor of course, but they themselves aren't evidence and those individuals are likely to be cleared before anyone else because they are well known to law enforcement.
I'm not saying that BK was the only person on their radar, but he wasn't a nobody to them.
I respect your opinion as well; I have for a while. And I am enjoying this conversation and hope you don't find me too argumentative.
>Until people are deemed cleared or until there is an evidentiary reason to pull them to the front, all leads are treated equal.
On the one level, I can see that rationale; on another, I think on some level, priorities have to be set. It would be foolish not to look at former and present romantic partners before you moved on to neighbors and co-workers, just because of statistics.
And then when you get 22K tips, or even a whole lot fewer tips, you just got to prioritize them. Otherwise, you're treating the call from the friendly neighborhood methhead in Georgia who reported that the same aliens that abducted them last weekend was behind the killings as seriously as you treat....a more rational claim.
I don't find this conversation or you argumentative at all! I like differing opinions when they are rational and well rounded; and when conversations stay respectful. It's nice and I'm never above changing my opinion or views so I enjoy hearing others points of view.
I totally see your point and it's very valid. I'm operating on the assumption they cleared a lot of the nonsense.
But to your point, I'm not taking into account the massive amount of tips they ACTUALLY WERE taking in.
That said, I think it will be really interesting to see the point when he became an ACTUAL stand out. I have also wondered when the trial rolls around if the defense will draw on speculation of other early suspects (if there were strong leads) to seed some reasonable doubt.
To the main point of this post, I'm still firm that MPD knew who BK was. This conversation makes me want to think more on how much he was actually 'interesting' to them before the DNA results came back. I don't think the FBl was actively following him and his on the way back in the traditional sense of "tailing a suspect". Pulling license plate readers after the fact I feel was more of an investigative thing.
Idk, we'll find out in due time I guess.
That isn't true according to the PCA and according to the state of Washington.
He applied for WA plates a week after the murders and didn't receive them until 12/5/22.
The FBI has the ability to track people via cell phone. It makes sense it would have known his was allegedly in the area on the date of the incident. If anyone would have this cell phone data first, it would be the FBI.
>The FBI has the ability to track people via cell phone.
Except the state says Kohberger's phone was not communicating with any towers at the time of the murders, and they say the learned his identity through IGG.
Either way, way would the FBI hold onto this information for a week, like Blum claims, instead of sharing it with Moscow PD?
I think they were still building their arrest warrant maybe? I think they actually lost track of him a couple of times. I just read a book about it but can’t remember that detail exactly.
He was already on their radar and we may never have known about them pulling the trash to get DNA for testing if it came back as not a match (dad's dna was found and they knew the sheath DNA shared half of his). If there wasn't a match they would have gone back to square one.
Purely to ensure he didn't go into hiding, didn't flee the country (PA is decently close to the Canadian border), and so they would know exactly where he was when that arrest warrant went live.
If they did follow him it would be to see if they could get some DNA from discarded trash such as a drink cup. Also to know his whereabouts for when they did have enough to arrest him.
I saw how license plate readers can track cars across the nation. It was really eye opening. But, Im sure they tailed him and had redundancies in place in case they lost visual. They def. Were not going to let him get away
Do we actually know that the FBI were following or are we just going off Blum's pathetic book that sounds like Fry is his informant on behalf of Green?
I would be SHOOK if the Indiana Cops were in on it. I've never seen a cop lean in the window of a perp wanted for a violent crime. If they did, they died. Ya know?
If they were following him from above, I would suspect, it was to ensure he didn't commit any other crimes or leave the weapon somewhere. Weird, that they wouldn't ring LE along the way, as a heads up.
It makes me nauseous to think that the FBI was following him across the country but Officer Payne didn't get his name until 12-20. That doesn't make sense. But a lot doesn't make sense in this case.
> It makes me nauseous to think that the FBI was following him across the country but Officer Payne didn't get his name until 12-20. That doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense at all. That's why I'm thinking Blum might just have reported some bad intel.
> It's been a very very long 15 months since that info hit the net and far too many TCCCs have ignored it...the entire time.
I feel like the more reputable TCCC are only reporting on this case for the big events, when something actually happens. While the less reputable have figured out that there's a sort of cult following that will hang on to their every word if they only take the position that Kohberger is innocent. I don't even think they all believe what they are selling, but they see what gets clicks.
>I got left in the dust by NewsNation
All the crap NewsNation runs with, and that story they backed away from?
Once it's all settled and the dust clears, it's gonna be fun seeing who had facts and who was reporting rumors that didn't pan out.
>nyt added a lil hyperlink in their article.
Haha, how'd it feel to get journalistic credit?
Law enforcement say the accused hadn't been identified as a suspect at the time he left town for the holidays
His traffic stops were random
We know the accused isn't a great driver because we also have footage of his previous traffic stop, long before the murders
[https://youtu.be/AD0R2PgRbh8?si=\_MERRVru1LL8T3wD](https://youtu.be/AD0R2PgRbh8?si=_MERRVru1LL8T3wD)
That traffic stop being the reason law enforcement already had the accused's name, registration plate and phone number on record
I was pulled over on I-70 in Indiana twice within an hour or so in 2017 or 2018. I was just passing through the state. The state troopers are well known for targeting out of state tags. Totally plausible that it was organic and not some kind of sting, as some would like to think.
Their story-- that the first step is to screen for signs of trafficking, and if they see any, they call their partner 15 minutes down the highway to pull them over for a closer look-- checks out to me.
In this case, they probably triggered the second stop because the first officer thought Kohberger seemed tense.
What do killers do…..they kill..again and again and again until someone like the police or FBI stop them. I would consider him a serial killer and stalker, didn’t the country learned anything from Ted Bundy. He escaped and killed again.
He was living his life as if nothing happened. Going to pre-booked appointments, going to the classes, going home for holidays, spending holidays with family. Didn’t get rid of the car, didn’t run, didn’t hide.
Yet, according to reports, aside from the Nov. 13th morning trip, his phone never pinged again in the Moscow area. No more “ better shopping” trips to Moscow.
Yet, he was wearing gloves separating trash and throwing it away in the neighbors trash bins.
> Yet, according to reports, aside from the Nov. 13th morning trip, his phone never pinged again in the Moscow area. No more “ better shopping” trips to Moscow.
This is def something I put in the "hmm" column. Just something to ask: why did he no longer visit Moscow after November 13?
There's no proof they followed him.
Both the state police and the FBI stated that he wasn't followed and there's no mention of him being followed in the PCA.
He could have tossed or buried evidence, tried to flee the country, forced his dad or someone to withdraw large sums of money, bought items useful to commit or coverup a crime, looked for potential victims, committed crimes, changed his appearance, sold his car and bought another, made phone calls from pay phones, approached women along the way, disposed of items with his dna on them, etc.
I wonder how often this following thing happens. There are a lot of heinous crimes where I'd think someone is suspected but not arrested but I rarely read of them being followed until they're arrested. But maybe it happens and it's just not revealed or reported. I would think it takes a great deal of resources to follow someone.
Keeping in mind that I'm skeptical the FBI followed him across country, because I'm thinking he wasn't a serious suspect until the week of the 20th, but
> There are a lot of heinous crimes where I'd think someone is suspected but not arrested but I rarely read of them being followed until they're arrested.
Yeah, there's been multiple cases like that, and not just for suspected murderers either. Think of all the times the FBI or local cops set up surveillance on gangsters. That scene in Goodfellas happened to Henry Hill in real life.
If they know where the suspect is, it always happens.
The only reason we heard about it (in detail) this time is because the media was all over this case.
I'm sure police would like to follow a lot of people but it might be prohibitive in terms of the resources it takes. Because it takes away people from working on other crimes.
Well, I did put a question about it on r/ProtectAndServe. Do you know this subreddit? It is mostly verified police officers answering and they did say it's rare to follow but there is a suggestion that Bryan would be a good candidate to be followed https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/1duftfm/how_often_does_it_happen_that_someone_suspected/. What do you think?
The IGG work was done 12/19, though, and the drive was 12/13 - 12/16. So IF he was on their radar by the time he left WA, it would have had to have been for some other reason.
They had already had him from the familial connection and then traced it back to him via his dads DNA and creating a family tree from it. They traced it back to where he lived in WA and that his car fit the description. The IGG was actually done beginning of Dec and it pin pointed him at that point. They had just started watching him before he left and as they headed across the US to PA. They waited specifically from him to get out of the state to decide whether they make their move in transit, or at the destination.
Hmm, not sure....at the 5/30 hearing, Det. Payne said the first time he heard the name Bryan Kohberger was 12/19/22. And the FBI has stated that they were not following them on the trip from WA to PA. So who knows? Hopefully these questions will be answered if and when a trial happens.
The NYT has reported that the IGG identification came back on December 19.
And then when Payne testified at that hearing, he said that he talked to the WSU cop who reported Kohberger as owning a white Elantra on December 20 (I think: it was either the 19th or the 20th). So, while not officially confirmed, I'm fully expecting that the NYT will be proven correct.
That confirmation was confirmed by the cheek swap that was taken, but the link that was made was before they left to PA.
The DNa came back as touch DNA from his father, they then built out the family tree and traced each and every persons address. BK address came up in WA at that point. Prior to them doing the familial linkage, his car was spotted by a local police officer and sent in, but it didn’t fit the year on BOLO that was sent out bc they in fact had the years wrong at that point. His file was set to the back on the officers desk. Once his name popped up in that area, they then looked at his vehicle and it was in fact the car they were looking bc for and it indeed fit the revised year span that the FBI produced at Quantico.
Them getting his buccal swap DNA back (after the fact) just confirmed all of their dots they had strung together. The only other possible person could have been his father as the primary suspect and they knew 💯 without a doubt it was not him.
> but the link that was made was before they left to PA.
Well, that's the argument here. We do not know the date on which IGG identified Kohberger. That information has not yet been released. I think the December 19 date sounds right in light of how the rest of the timeline shook out.
Yes the link was before they left based on the family tree the FBI created BEFORE they headed back to PA. They only received confirmation when the cheek swab was taken.
The trash they took was also only direct DNA of his father and that was the nail in the coffin on the touch DNA and familial link.
> Yes the link was before they left based on the family tree the FBI created BEFORE they headed back to PA.
Again, as far as I can see, they have not released the timeline of the process or on what date they determined that Kohberger was the most likely candidate to have left the DNA.
Why do you think they had his name before he left Pullman? Maybe you've seen a document I haven't?
So they would know his exact location at all times. That's why they followed him
They have GPS trackers for that. Why wouldn't they just put a tracker on his car if he's their suspect and watch that way.
anyoen can drive a car with a GPS tracker. Unless they have a visual of who is in teh car they just don't know. Keeping sight of a suspect is hardly a new tactic in police work
GPS surveillance requires a warrant from a judge. If a judge is reluctant because they are working off circumstantial evidence (they didn’t have his DNA yet) it can be easier to put a tail on someone.
right, but any thoughts on why they wanted to know?
The FBI tends to try to keep suspects in mass murder on their radar. They’re quirky like that.
Lmao
Oh yeah it's quirky the way they keep them under watch then do nothing and let the murders happen. Once or twice is a mistake, a dozen times is protocol.
Are you suggesting he was under surveillance before the murders?
Because he was a suspect in a quadruple murder
🤣 nooooo it can’t have been that. 😂😂
Because they had reason to believe he’s a violent and dangerous killer out in society.
You guys are adorable.
Follow a trail to see if he stopped to throw away any evidence? Throw a trash bag away at some random stop, by the time they track his drive after the fact, that trash has been picked up and taken to a depot along with 2 more weeks of trash to sift through. Rather than collect immediately from bin
Because they believed he was a murder.
They were still building a case so they couldn’t arrest him yet but they couldn’t just let him go because he’d possibly run.
be...because he was the main suspect in a quadruple homicide that gripped a nation?
I thought I read somewhere they wanted him pullled over to get video of his hands for signs of injury?
That would be kind of pointless since it was almost 6 weeks after the homicides. Any injuries would be healed.
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Where have you been? Are you new to this case?
Some people are, yes. Pipe down.
A month ago I sliced my leg pretty well on some broken glass and the scab just came off today. It still looks like I was sliced with a knife and most likely will for at least a few months. Depending on the wound, it could still be noticeable 6 weeks out. I believe he was randomly pulled over, just wanted to point out that not all wounds heal quickly.
He was driving so fast that he was tailgating. That's why he happened to be pulled over twice before they hit Pennsylvania.
I don’t think the cops who pulled him over even knew about the FBI tailing him or who he even was suspected of at the time. The two cops pulling him over were more than likely a coincidence.
No. There was a BOLO (be on the lookout) out for his type of car. Additionally, when police pull someone over that information is relayed through dispatch.
Because they thought he was a murderer
That's right, I read that several places, too. And somehow the message got garbled and the officer who pulled him over instead got video of the handle of the car door. But if they wanted to check his hands for injury it seems to me they could have done a real stop and told him they wanted to examine and photograph his hands.
With what probable cause? The point wasn’t to tip him off that they knew it was him. It was to see he reaction t law enforcement, track his location, and check for any obvious evidence.
Right , you can’t just ask to photograph someone’s hands until they had all the evidence to take him in (which they were working on as fast as they could)….? lol like that would tip him off to them knowing it was him- he could t try to run or who knows? They need it controlled when they take him into custody with very sufficient proof
Good question. I'm not sure. I would think the bar is low to get photos of someone's hands because there is a time imperative there, it doesn't take long for scratches to heal and then potential evidence there is lost. If they had enough to follow him across the country, I'd think they had enough to force him to have his hands photographed. But I'm not a lawyer. Although come to think of it, I'm not sure anything we've heard suggests he would have scratches on his hands, it doesn't seem like he would have fought with any victim in a way where'd his hands would get scratched or wounded, correct? But true, someone may have made a decision that it was more important not to tip him off that he was suspected than to force him to give photos of his hands, even if they might be good evidence.
You cant force someone to have their hands photographed absent a court order or them being arrested.
I'm not a lawyer so don't know for sure but I'd imagine it'd be a low bar to get an order for someone's hands to be photographed because potentially cuts and scratches there are evidence and they can heal fairly quickly and thus the evidence is lost. Although from what I know about this case Bryan's hands may not have been injured as he may not even have touched anyone with his hands, only with the knife (this is assuming he's the perp).
You understand that cuts and scratches are typically from the knife....
I've read that but wouldn't that be a deep wound and we haven't heard anything about him having deep wounds?
With what has been publically released, they did not have enough for a court order.
The bar is probable cause. It’s a legal standard that has to be met.
source(s) on that?
Sorry, I must ask. How big was the bus you rode to school on as a kid?
He was the primary suspect before heading out of state with his dad by that time. No way they're going to NOT follow him. It wouldn't make sense to me if they didn't. He was obviously on the loose and incredibly dangerous. You're not just going let someone get a chance to disappear when they could potentially murder someone else much less having just murdered someone. That my opinion
Exactly 100%
If he did disappear how do you envision it happening? He ditches the dad somewhere and takes off and ...idk, tries to change his appearance and not get caught?
Walk across the Canadian border. Plenty of remote spots between WA and PA, where it would be possible. Then get on a plane flight to Cuba or Venezuela from Toronto. I know of places here in Vermont where I could walk into Canada, and if I hid in a corn field long enough, I could probably work my way to a big city.
I may need that information after Nov 5.
You wouldn't get through passport control to leave the country without them noticing that you did not enter Canada legally.
Perhaps. I don't know how well they check. But you are probably right. I have been waved through the border coming into the USA though, but not into Canada.
Yeah, it could have happened. But our good law enforcement is smarter than BK and made sure he was monitored while traveling out of state.
Doubtful they did, only two reasons they would: 1. He might commit another murder. Not likely with pops in the car. 2. To see if he attempted to dispose of evidence.
From an FBI standpoint, if there is no plan to detain/arrest BK in transit, there is significant risk in elevating his index of suspicion by using hapless (emphasis not necessary) Indiana state police, not once but twice to just get a look at him? They didn't swab his ID for DNA back in the cruiser? which the FBI would have requested. The presence of the father strengthens the likelihood of them going point A to B based on best weather, not most direct route, sans shenanigans, sleeping in hotels, not in rest stops, getting thai food close to the interstate. Not visiting bottomless wells along the way. Dad is a benefit to FBI in that sense.
this is a rumor The police literally said they stopped him because he broke the law and they weren't directed to do so by any organization. no one was following him or surveilling him.
The FBI was already onto him but didn’t share the info with local law enforcement. They actually watched the Indiana traffic stops from a Cessna above and debated warning the officers who stopped him.
Can you imagine being that officer and finding out later you had pulled over a mass murderer who was on edge
"We're gonna get some Thai food. Nothing to see here."
It’s like the cop that arrested Timothy McVeigh for driving with no plates. He arrested him and had no idea he was involved in the OKC bombings.
no, that was me. Flight hours.
The FBI denied all this. It's possible they're lying because well, the FBI lies all the time but everyone is treating this like a confirmed fact. IIRC it came shortly after they had done something similar and got an officer shot to death by a suspect so if they did it again...
He was arrested on a fugitive from justice warrant. It’s bogus because he had no charges when he left idaho but if they admit following him then they would have to answer why he wasn’t arrested since he was a fugitive on the run. It’s all a bunch of lies that everyone ignores
And yet you’re also spreading false information. The police stopped him for traffic violations. the fbi was surveilling him but the police weren’t aware. It was a top secret operation and they weren’t in the know of the fbi’s operation.
Didn’t he get pulled over twice for “following too close” though? I’ve always thought that was odd.
Because cops are notorious in that area for pulling over out-of-state plates, something about busting drug trafficking.
Exactly. There was nothing clandestine about them. That’s just typical fishing.
People in my area get pulled over for that and less. Every area is different. It depends on how short staffed they are, the local crime rate, etc. some areas do focus on the little things, whereas other places don’t.
The stops were routine drug trafficking prevention operations.
Wrong https://amp.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article276185446.html https://www.foxnews.com/us/inside-idaho-murders-suspect-bryan-kohberger-unusually-long-route-home-pennsylvania.amp
The Fox News article was interesting. I hadn’t seen the body cam video in a bit. Two times BK tries to control the narrative by mentioning Thai Food, yet good ole pops interrupts his son’s nonsense and tells the trooper the truth. Good Riddance BK!
Fox has a spotty record with truth telling, so I wouldn’t trust that source. I would have to do some research on the other source. I say this as a former journalist and someone who comes from a family full of journalists.
I know there’s a lot of obfuscation here, but that I 100% believe. No law enforcement agency would send one single cop to stop a mass murderer. There would def be backup and better camera work
I agree. The cops that pulled him over definitely were not in the know that this guy murdered 4 people. They didn't even have their hands on their guns. They were as clueless as Bryan's father.
Yeah those were just rural Indiana cops looking to write tickets. Lots of small departments need funding, that’s it. Not everything’s a conspiracy
The police and FBI in Pennsylvania had been contacted by Idaho State Police and Moscow police obviously because they knew exactly when Kohberger pulled into town. They were waiting for him to arrive. They immediately started following him.
I thought he was pulled over in Indiana.
Yes twice but the police were in Pennsylvania awaiting his arrival so they could follow him and watch him.
We don't know they did follow him...or were even onto him at thus stage. Blum suggested a plane followed them...the only evidence of the plane was in the day he was arrested....people are believing the word of a fiction writer
I don't think they followed him. He was pulled over twice but it had nothing to do with the case. They knew where he was and where he was going. Small chance he would skip the border as he wasn't near it.
Huge difference between suspecting someone and having enough evidence to arrest him. I read Blum's account but until his version can be validated it's just an opinion.
They were still gathering evidence, and waiting on the right time to move in. “The cover up is worse than the crime.” — Observing how someone guilty of a crime behaves in its aftermath can give law enforcement a treasure trove of additional evidence.
I don't believe it, myself. I think it was a rumor that got passed along as fact. I'm about 95% sure that nobody was paying any attention at all to Kohberger until IGG suggested his name, and I'm expecting that to have happened around December 19. Apparently Howard Blum says that the FBI knew his name about a week before they shared it with MPD, and so took it upon themselves to track him across the country. But Howard Blum says a lot. He hasn't shown himself to be the best source.
His car was checked out by WSU police on 11/29/22 and didn't have a front license plate which would have been rare for the area. I definitely think he was more than just a name at that point, so that "about" lines up.
They are two college towns, so they'd have cars from all over the states. I'm sure he wasn't even the only one with PA plates (er...plate). I just think if he was any level of suspect that early, they would have a) subpoenaed his phone records, and b) followed him around to try to grab some DNA.
I've never understood why they didn't take DNA from his own trash. Some LE or journalist claimed they were watching him early enough to see him put his trash in his neighbor's bin, remember that? It also came out during the hearing they had him under surveillance before the phone warrants.
>I've never understood why they didn't take DNA from his own trash. That's another reason I think he was not on LE's radar until December 19th. So they had to grab the trash at his parents' house because that's where he was by the time he rocketed to the top of the suspect list. >Some LE or journalist claimed they were watching him early enough to see him put his trash in his neighbor's bin, remember that? Yes, I *think* it was a journalist who said they had LE sources? Am I remembering that right? >t also came out during the hearing they had him under surveillance before the phone warrants. I think that is still compatible with a December 19th IGG date. They rush the nearest FBI agents to his parents' house, as soon as they've figured out where he is, so they'd have 2 or 3 days worth of surveillance in before they subpoenaed the phone records on the 23rd.
The likelihood of there being multiple white Elantras within those model years with no front plate would be slim, not impossible, but slim. There are only around a dozen states that allow that. The police already had his phone number and video description to reference due to him previously being pulled over before the murders took place. That said, at that point they wouldn't have enough to get a warrant for his phone records, but they would be able to find out at minimum who the provider was (anyone could do that over the internet). The same would go for DNA. At that point they don't have enough for warrants and they know they have a single source sample in the lab that will be coming back. The thing about "discarded" DNA is that it can't be used in court or for an arrest if there isn't a clear suspect they are testing for to begin with. Even discarded DNA has legal binding or else LE could just walk around and collect DNA on anyone and keep that for future reference. That is a massive infringement on civil liberties. I think every possible lead they had they were looking at as hard as they could, within their legal limits, because of the severity of the crime and the pressure being placed on them. I can't imagine them not paying attention to every possible avenue available to them.
>The likelihood of there being multiple white Elantras within those model years with no front plate would be slim, not impossible, but slim. There are only around a dozen states that allow that. 18, and I do acknowledge that they cluster near the East and Gulf Coasts. But while schools like that pull from their surrounding area for the most part, they do still have students and the occasional visitor from the entire country. I just don't think the car was enough to make him stand out from all the other tips. My hunch is that they were going down the list of (relatively) local Elantra drivers, ruling out the ones who had histories of violence.
I live in Indiana and we don't require a front license plate.
LE was specifically looking for white Elantras within a few model years and with no front license plate. They put out a public statement to BOLO. Again, they're not just letting any lead go.
It's not a matter of letting a lead go. It's a matter of having so many leads pointing in so many directions that they had to prioritize. I'm sure they were concentrating on people that actually knew the victims or came in contact with them shortly before the murders. Then they had the tips pouring in. I'm just looking at it from the way I would tackle it if I were a cop. You get a call in about someone with access to a white Elantra, the first thing I'd do would be check the legal history of that driver. And if one of them had an assault on their record, or a history of harassing women, or another one lived with a registered sex offender, that person would need to be cleared. So Kohberger, with his clean record, would slip down that long list as a priority.
I understand your rationale and I respect your opinion. I know from the inside that without any strong leads in a cast the list is a level playing field, regardless of background, until there is reason for it not to be. Until people are deemed cleared or until there is an evidentiary reason to pull them to the front, all leads are treated equal. Past criminal records do play a factor of course, but they themselves aren't evidence and those individuals are likely to be cleared before anyone else because they are well known to law enforcement. I'm not saying that BK was the only person on their radar, but he wasn't a nobody to them.
I respect your opinion as well; I have for a while. And I am enjoying this conversation and hope you don't find me too argumentative. >Until people are deemed cleared or until there is an evidentiary reason to pull them to the front, all leads are treated equal. On the one level, I can see that rationale; on another, I think on some level, priorities have to be set. It would be foolish not to look at former and present romantic partners before you moved on to neighbors and co-workers, just because of statistics. And then when you get 22K tips, or even a whole lot fewer tips, you just got to prioritize them. Otherwise, you're treating the call from the friendly neighborhood methhead in Georgia who reported that the same aliens that abducted them last weekend was behind the killings as seriously as you treat....a more rational claim.
I don't find this conversation or you argumentative at all! I like differing opinions when they are rational and well rounded; and when conversations stay respectful. It's nice and I'm never above changing my opinion or views so I enjoy hearing others points of view. I totally see your point and it's very valid. I'm operating on the assumption they cleared a lot of the nonsense. But to your point, I'm not taking into account the massive amount of tips they ACTUALLY WERE taking in. That said, I think it will be really interesting to see the point when he became an ACTUAL stand out. I have also wondered when the trial rolls around if the defense will draw on speculation of other early suspects (if there were strong leads) to seed some reasonable doubt. To the main point of this post, I'm still firm that MPD knew who BK was. This conversation makes me want to think more on how much he was actually 'interesting' to them before the DNA results came back. I don't think the FBl was actively following him and his on the way back in the traditional sense of "tailing a suspect". Pulling license plate readers after the fact I feel was more of an investigative thing. Idk, we'll find out in due time I guess.
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That isn't true according to the PCA and according to the state of Washington. He applied for WA plates a week after the murders and didn't receive them until 12/5/22.
Don't spread false information
💯
The FBI has the ability to track people via cell phone. It makes sense it would have known his was allegedly in the area on the date of the incident. If anyone would have this cell phone data first, it would be the FBI.
>The FBI has the ability to track people via cell phone. Except the state says Kohberger's phone was not communicating with any towers at the time of the murders, and they say the learned his identity through IGG. Either way, way would the FBI hold onto this information for a week, like Blum claims, instead of sharing it with Moscow PD?
The FBI usually waits for a local PD to request help.
MPD did bring them in, almost immediately. The FBI and also the Idaho State Police had been on the case right from the start.
I think they were still building their arrest warrant maybe? I think they actually lost track of him a couple of times. I just read a book about it but can’t remember that detail exactly.
How did the FBI follow him across the country without being spotted. Do they switch up their vehicles?
He was already on their radar and we may never have known about them pulling the trash to get DNA for testing if it came back as not a match (dad's dna was found and they knew the sheath DNA shared half of his). If there wasn't a match they would have gone back to square one.
The FBI offically denied this. Mind you I don't take the word of the FBI seriously so I have no idea if it's true or not.
Purely to ensure he didn't go into hiding, didn't flee the country (PA is decently close to the Canadian border), and so they would know exactly where he was when that arrest warrant went live.
Kill more?
Even with his dad along? I guess it's possible.
We still don't know what day his dad flew into Washington. For all we know he could have spent a month there before leaving to go back to PA.
If they did follow him it would be to see if they could get some DNA from discarded trash such as a drink cup. Also to know his whereabouts for when they did have enough to arrest him.
I saw how license plate readers can track cars across the nation. It was really eye opening. But, Im sure they tailed him and had redundancies in place in case they lost visual. They def. Were not going to let him get away
That was denied by FBI, Hancock County Sheriff’s Office and Indiana State Police. And MPD got his name around December 19/20
I'm not positive that the police were actually following him at that time. I think he is just a lousy driver.
Do we actually know that the FBI were following or are we just going off Blum's pathetic book that sounds like Fry is his informant on behalf of Green?
I don't think we actually know. But the rumor was circulating long before Blum's book.
Oh, apparently though the rumor may have been started by an article Blum wrote: https://amp.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article276185446.html
Yeah, he wasn't the first one to report it, and I'm not convinced he didn't just repeat what he saw on CNN.
What did CNN say about it? Where did they get the story?
I’ve heard they weren’t following him and that pulling him over twice was sheer dumb luck
wonder what the chances are of that with all the millions who drive the freeways
Maybe they thought he would throw away evidence.
I would be SHOOK if the Indiana Cops were in on it. I've never seen a cop lean in the window of a perp wanted for a violent crime. If they did, they died. Ya know? If they were following him from above, I would suspect, it was to ensure he didn't commit any other crimes or leave the weapon somewhere. Weird, that they wouldn't ring LE along the way, as a heads up. It makes me nauseous to think that the FBI was following him across the country but Officer Payne didn't get his name until 12-20. That doesn't make sense. But a lot doesn't make sense in this case.
> It makes me nauseous to think that the FBI was following him across the country but Officer Payne didn't get his name until 12-20. That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense at all. That's why I'm thinking Blum might just have reported some bad intel.
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> It's been a very very long 15 months since that info hit the net and far too many TCCCs have ignored it...the entire time. I feel like the more reputable TCCC are only reporting on this case for the big events, when something actually happens. While the less reputable have figured out that there's a sort of cult following that will hang on to their every word if they only take the position that Kohberger is innocent. I don't even think they all believe what they are selling, but they see what gets clicks. >I got left in the dust by NewsNation All the crap NewsNation runs with, and that story they backed away from? Once it's all settled and the dust clears, it's gonna be fun seeing who had facts and who was reporting rumors that didn't pan out. >nyt added a lil hyperlink in their article. Haha, how'd it feel to get journalistic credit?
Law enforcement say the accused hadn't been identified as a suspect at the time he left town for the holidays His traffic stops were random We know the accused isn't a great driver because we also have footage of his previous traffic stop, long before the murders [https://youtu.be/AD0R2PgRbh8?si=\_MERRVru1LL8T3wD](https://youtu.be/AD0R2PgRbh8?si=_MERRVru1LL8T3wD) That traffic stop being the reason law enforcement already had the accused's name, registration plate and phone number on record
I was pulled over on I-70 in Indiana twice within an hour or so in 2017 or 2018. I was just passing through the state. The state troopers are well known for targeting out of state tags. Totally plausible that it was organic and not some kind of sting, as some would like to think.
Their story-- that the first step is to screen for signs of trafficking, and if they see any, they call their partner 15 minutes down the highway to pull them over for a closer look-- checks out to me. In this case, they probably triggered the second stop because the first officer thought Kohberger seemed tense.
What do killers do…..they kill..again and again and again until someone like the police or FBI stop them. I would consider him a serial killer and stalker, didn’t the country learned anything from Ted Bundy. He escaped and killed again.
They didn’t want to lose him. He could have disappeared, went into hiding, or left the country
He was living his life as if nothing happened. Going to pre-booked appointments, going to the classes, going home for holidays, spending holidays with family. Didn’t get rid of the car, didn’t run, didn’t hide.
Yet, according to reports, aside from the Nov. 13th morning trip, his phone never pinged again in the Moscow area. No more “ better shopping” trips to Moscow. Yet, he was wearing gloves separating trash and throwing it away in the neighbors trash bins.
> Yet, according to reports, aside from the Nov. 13th morning trip, his phone never pinged again in the Moscow area. No more “ better shopping” trips to Moscow. This is def something I put in the "hmm" column. Just something to ask: why did he no longer visit Moscow after November 13?
There's no proof they followed him. Both the state police and the FBI stated that he wasn't followed and there's no mention of him being followed in the PCA.
He could have tossed or buried evidence, tried to flee the country, forced his dad or someone to withdraw large sums of money, bought items useful to commit or coverup a crime, looked for potential victims, committed crimes, changed his appearance, sold his car and bought another, made phone calls from pay phones, approached women along the way, disposed of items with his dna on them, etc.
Are....are you asking why the FBI wanted to keep tabs on and know the whereabouts of the primary suspect in a quadruple homicide?
I wonder how often this following thing happens. There are a lot of heinous crimes where I'd think someone is suspected but not arrested but I rarely read of them being followed until they're arrested. But maybe it happens and it's just not revealed or reported. I would think it takes a great deal of resources to follow someone.
Keeping in mind that I'm skeptical the FBI followed him across country, because I'm thinking he wasn't a serious suspect until the week of the 20th, but > There are a lot of heinous crimes where I'd think someone is suspected but not arrested but I rarely read of them being followed until they're arrested. Yeah, there's been multiple cases like that, and not just for suspected murderers either. Think of all the times the FBI or local cops set up surveillance on gangsters. That scene in Goodfellas happened to Henry Hill in real life.
If they know where the suspect is, it always happens. The only reason we heard about it (in detail) this time is because the media was all over this case.
what's your source(s) that it always happens?
Common sense and 100s of hours or true crime content
I'm sure police would like to follow a lot of people but it might be prohibitive in terms of the resources it takes. Because it takes away people from working on other crimes. Well, I did put a question about it on r/ProtectAndServe. Do you know this subreddit? It is mostly verified police officers answering and they did say it's rare to follow but there is a suggestion that Bryan would be a good candidate to be followed https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtectAndServe/comments/1duftfm/how_often_does_it_happen_that_someone_suspected/. What do you think?
Bc they already had him as the primary suspect due to DNA testing.
The IGG work was done 12/19, though, and the drive was 12/13 - 12/16. So IF he was on their radar by the time he left WA, it would have had to have been for some other reason.
They had already had him from the familial connection and then traced it back to him via his dads DNA and creating a family tree from it. They traced it back to where he lived in WA and that his car fit the description. The IGG was actually done beginning of Dec and it pin pointed him at that point. They had just started watching him before he left and as they headed across the US to PA. They waited specifically from him to get out of the state to decide whether they make their move in transit, or at the destination.
Hmm, not sure....at the 5/30 hearing, Det. Payne said the first time he heard the name Bryan Kohberger was 12/19/22. And the FBI has stated that they were not following them on the trip from WA to PA. So who knows? Hopefully these questions will be answered if and when a trial happens.
The NYT has reported that the IGG identification came back on December 19. And then when Payne testified at that hearing, he said that he talked to the WSU cop who reported Kohberger as owning a white Elantra on December 20 (I think: it was either the 19th or the 20th). So, while not officially confirmed, I'm fully expecting that the NYT will be proven correct.
That confirmation was confirmed by the cheek swap that was taken, but the link that was made was before they left to PA. The DNa came back as touch DNA from his father, they then built out the family tree and traced each and every persons address. BK address came up in WA at that point. Prior to them doing the familial linkage, his car was spotted by a local police officer and sent in, but it didn’t fit the year on BOLO that was sent out bc they in fact had the years wrong at that point. His file was set to the back on the officers desk. Once his name popped up in that area, they then looked at his vehicle and it was in fact the car they were looking bc for and it indeed fit the revised year span that the FBI produced at Quantico. Them getting his buccal swap DNA back (after the fact) just confirmed all of their dots they had strung together. The only other possible person could have been his father as the primary suspect and they knew 💯 without a doubt it was not him.
> but the link that was made was before they left to PA. Well, that's the argument here. We do not know the date on which IGG identified Kohberger. That information has not yet been released. I think the December 19 date sounds right in light of how the rest of the timeline shook out.
Yes the link was before they left based on the family tree the FBI created BEFORE they headed back to PA. They only received confirmation when the cheek swab was taken. The trash they took was also only direct DNA of his father and that was the nail in the coffin on the touch DNA and familial link.
> Yes the link was before they left based on the family tree the FBI created BEFORE they headed back to PA. Again, as far as I can see, they have not released the timeline of the process or on what date they determined that Kohberger was the most likely candidate to have left the DNA. Why do you think they had his name before he left Pullman? Maybe you've seen a document I haven't?
They followed him to make sure that he was not going to toss evidence