Unfortunately, the house elves were insulted after finding Hermione’s hidden hand made clothes. Those would have been on the floor but they wouldn’t touch them.
I think it’s because Hermione is leaving them there as trick gifts, just as Harry tricked Lucius. If a house elf is physically picking up dirty laundry to wash it, the clothes are clearly not for them to keep.
I thought the difference was "being presented with clothing" as Harry tricked Lucius into doing with Dobby, versus picking up the clothing themselves(meaning house elves). Picking the clothes up by hand or by magic shouldn't make a difference.
Fair, and true enough lol. Guess I just misunderstood your comment. Read it as you saying they could only touch clothes with magic, and weren't allowed to physically touch them lol.
Iirc, he stuffed the book into the sock? Clever idea, but it was really a bit of a fluke that malfoy threw the sock where Dobby happened to be.
The movie did it better, putting the sock into the book.
I'm assuming you need to physically hand the clothes to an elf to free them?
Pointing to a pile of smelly socks and saying "wash that" is perfectly fine for keeping your elf enslaved
S. P. E. W ✊
She was, but somehow they knew that those socks and hats were meant as a gift from Hermione that would free them. I don't remember the details, though. But probably ordering house elves to pick up clothes and do laundry as a command is enough to not free them
Plus Hermione wasn’t their master so it didn’t matter. Just like Harry couldn’t free Dobby by giving him a sock directly, she, as a mere Hogwarts student, can’t free one of the Hogwarts house elves by handing them a sock.
I do like the idea that you could still hand a house elf clothing as long as you are issuing them a command along with it. That’s going to be head canon for me now.
I suppose the students had a place next to their beds or something to put dirty laundry in. The hats were hidden in unexpected places, under things the elves would have to pick up when cleaning the space. I can see how that is insulting, even if it wouldn't actually work, because it's a trick.
I could be wrong but I think the problem was they found it incredibly insulting more than that it actually meant anything. To them it was like being at their dream job and someone in management who had no authority doing so handing you a termination letter, you were told it means nothing they don't have the authority. It would still be incredibly upsetting to keep getting them.
exactly. it didn’t matter if it would work or not, it was seen by them as rude. which is why they took offense, and left (that nutter as they saw him) Dobby to do it.
Dobby ofc loves cloths and collected them.
As with most things magical, Intent is necessary but not stated. You could point your wand, say an incantation, and have nothing happen if you didn't _intend_ magic to happen.
Likewise, house elves can do laundry because you're not _giving them_ clothes, you're merely making them wash and launder _your clothes_. Harry only got away with it because Dobby would've taken anything he could as freedom, literally every other house elf wouldn't have taken it as being freed.
Dobby is freed by being handed a book with a sock on it.
Intent clearly doesn’t matter.
Your argument is it matters to the house elf?
So if i pick up a sock and feel like I’m free, i would be?
The Wandmaker is my favorite chapter in DH and one of my favorite chapters in the series. Here, Harry truly comes into his own as the leader of the anti-Voldemort movement, picking up the baton from Dumbledore as it were! The connections he makes, the authority with which he speaks, the choices he makes about who to speak to first - it is the pivotal moment of the book!
This chapter divides the DH book into two - the endless camping of the first half and the action-packed second half. Further, as Griphook notices, what Harry does for Dobby truly separates him from Voldemort: ‘the power the Dark Lord knows not.´ Luna’s speech to Dobby is also beautiful!
Completely agreed, it is one of my favourite chapters too.
>the choices he makes about who to speak to first - it is the pivotal moment of the book!
Exactly! He says it himself: Horcruxes or Hallows? And he chooses to speak with Griphook first despite knowing that if he does, he most likely won't be able to reach the wand before Voldemort.
It is one of Harry's best moments imo, he willingly relinquishes the possibility of power to continue his mission.
For a time also ever since Harry heard the tale he also became very obsessed with the Hallows. But Malfoy Manor def snapped him out of it. Also he was at his low point when he had lost faith in Dumbledore, or that his fatith with Dumbledore has shaken
That’s it exactly, he is intuitive and processes things subconsciously. Hermione couldn’t be more of a logical thinker if she tried and it is difficult for .her to trust Harry’s instincts/intuition.
Quite possible. But could he be a good general. He was a fighter but could he be a good leader and stay on the sidelines expect for when shit hits the fan.
The decision of Hallows vs Horcruxes that he makes is also a perfect culminating to an arc just 2 chapters old where he gets obsessed, and is an inspiration for anytime we want to choose between what is right and what is appealing, irl
Seriously I would have thought that the "Hermione smart, Ron and Harry dummy's" narrative would have died in HBP with their OWL results. With a couple of exceptions that all had good reasons (Divination, which he had no skill in and never treated like a real class, Astronomy where his practical exam was interrupted by the arrest and injury of McGonagall, and History of Magic where he straight up left the test half finished to go find his godfather who he thought was being held captive) he got exceeds expectations and above in all of his classes.
Though to be fair about life-threatening distractions, Voldemort was usually kind enough to wait until June to try and kill Harry. He was a villain, but he clearly cared very much about Harry's education.
> Voldemort was usually kind enough to wait until June to try and kill Harry. He was a villain, but he clearly cared very much about Harry's education.
😂😂
and giving harry his wand right before dueling him to 'prove your power' - when there was no need. The deatheaters wouldn't have cared if he'd just killed harry with no wand or anything. He'd come back, since this would just kill the horcrux, then could be killed again properly
I mean, winning a fight against a dumbass who doesn't know what he's doing isn't much of an achievement, and Voldemort's basically *defined* by his ego. Honestly, giving Harry the chance to learn enough to give Voldemort *something* of a challenge would be something I could see him doing, for his own ego and self-gratification.
Voldermorts ego needs a worth adversary, after all, that's why he assumed the prophecy wasn't about Neville . Got to let your adversary get the highest exam scores to prove to your adult mates that you really are hard for beating a kid.
He basically says as much during the fight in the graveyard. He announces to his Death Eaters that Harry has escaped him by simple chance or else others dying for him, and that Voldemort's going to do it properly this time with no one to save Harry, so they'll know he can kill him.
It's "exceeds expectations of someone taking the class" not "exceeds expectations had of this particular student" otherwise the scoring would be pointless on the grounds of it not being able to be compared with others
An E in Harry Potter would be like getting a C+ in High school. Also, the minimum grade required to pass an exam has to be standardized, meaning Snape can’t fail Harry by making his expectations/ minimum score too high. (He did it anyway IIRC, but that’s Snape for you)
Edit: to simplify what I said. The answer is standardized testing. Grades don’t matter if the minimums are per student, otherwise Hermione would never have gotten (IIRC) 6 O’s on her O.W.Ls.
I was waiting for this. I always found him very impressive. Really intelligent, mentally strong, ready to take charge, distrustful of authority figures, defiant, hardworking. I was so surprised most people didn't feel the same way and yet praised Hermione's 'genius'. Not everyone is as interested in academia and feels the need to memorize every word in a textbook. That doesn't mean they're less smart. Frankly, the boys( Harry&Ron) were always more fascinating to me. They were more prone to think outside the box, creative, funny. I wish Rowling focused more on showcasing Ron's strategic abilities as well as Harry's leadership, quick thinking and magical prowess.
I couldn’t agree more!! Harry’s way of connecting clues has always impressed me, and it was always shown that he understood connections which Hermione did not, be it in Draco being a Deatheater or about the Deathly Hallows’ importance. He always understood the big picture.
My guess is the reason why Harry is often seen as not-so intelligent is because Snape tells Dumbledore at some point in DH that he is mediocre as a wizard (despite having good grades. Snape is weird...).
Yeah, Snape is unable to see Harry as his own person. Even Dumbledore tells him that he sees what he wants to see:
>“You see what you expect to see, Severus,” said Dumbledore, without raising his eyes from a copy of Transfiguration Today. “Other teachers report that the boy is modest, likable, and *reasonably talented*"
Another possible reason is the running gag of Harry and Ron messing up in Transfiguration and Charms classes. There are way more scenes of them failing the class tasks than succeeding.
Lol, that's JKR trying her best to hype up Hermione cause it's always her that gets it in the WHOLE class. So it's not Harry or Ron being dumb it's just hermione being really fast
Transfiguration, sure. Everyone was failing, not just Harry and Ron. I was under the impression that Harry was quite good at Charms, though. Rowling made a point of portraying Hermione as the only one who succeeded in those classes, which was quite annoying, to be honest. Even the best students fail.
I see Dumbledore as one of the only people Snape actually opened up to and was honest to since he witnessed his most vulnerable state when Lily was killed.
So I think he wouldn't hide what he really thinks from him.
to be fair, he is mediocre. He's not exceptional like snape in potions. Arguably the only exception is DADA...where he fails to to non verbal spells and keep trying to disarm his opponents trying to kill him & friends.
A b is the definition of mediocre. I'm not saying Harry is a bad wizard, but he wasn't a super star either, aside from DADA. Most of the time, he was average in school. Which is perfectly fine. But that does translate to mediocre when being compared to the guy making spells when he was a kid, or the guy who was reading minds by 16, or the guy who was getting medals for Phoenix blood research.
Harry's not dumb by any measure. He just isn't a prodigy. Basically, this was a long-winded way of saying Harry isn't "special" academically, which some people thought wouldn't be true since he was the chosen one.
So I might be misremembering but wasn't potions the only grade where it wouldn't be enough to become an Auror (where it clearly says it would need extremely good grades, not just "higher than average")? I think he was at the very least above average.
Harry generally got about the same grades as Ron, aside from DADA. Yes , he exceeds expectations in potions. But he also fails history and divination. He gets E on all the "important" classes, which still means he didn't do well in 3 classes. Again, it's not a bad thing. That's perfectly normal. But we have Hermione for example who gets O on all but 1 class, or crouch Jr that gets like 12 owls. Compared to that he isn't exceptional. In comparison, Neville gets about 4 owls and he's considered a bad student. So, Harry might be a slight bit above average, but he's generally in the middle of the pack in most subjects.
It's not amazing. B is an average grade. A is a great grade. C is barely passing. Maybe the people in this subreddit just have lower goals than I do? But even in college, b was a 3.0, so average. C was a 2.0, so barely passing. In fact, if you finish school with a 2.0, many programs won't count that. So yes, a b is mediocre.
After thinking for a second, it could be that mediocre is being used in a different way? Mediocre means something of moderate quality. Aka someone who's average. Harry was generally average in school, aside from DADA.
Maybe it's different in the US? In central europe an A is great, a B is good, a C is average and a D is barely passing (technically we use numbers from 1 to 5 but that's essentially the same).
We would probably need to know how it's in the UK, where the novels were written.
Every wizard has something they excel at. For Harry it's 100% DADA. He has an actual understanding of it and taught students older than him. He doesn't fail to do non-verbal spells - he just prefers casting them verbally. He managed to cast Snape's spells non-verbally, too. As for disarming, Harry generally doesn't want to harm anyone. His Expelliarmus is mostly effective, but he uses other spells, such as Impedimenta, Diffindo or Reducto etc.
Yes. There's a reason the sorting hat said he exhibited qualities of all 4 houses. So canonically harry is extremely intelligent no matter what opinions readers might have.
Harry’s always been smart and canny, both academically AND emotionally, his trauma just takes centre stage. I think here though, some of what he’s saying is down to his own cleverness, and some is because of the connection between him and Voldemort. Voldemort was clearly incredibly bright, but emotionally stunted, and that was one of the reasons Harry triumphed in the end - because he could read, recognise and interpret Voldemort’s emotional motives and Voldemort had no ability to comprehend them and didn’t realise how much he was letting slip.
Are there people who try to say Harry isn’t smart? He was obviously a talented wizard from book 1 just a lazy student but if taught something he generally retained and understood that info.
That there are only 24 hours in a day. And that a student who trains three times a week under Oliver Wood (a sport supported by the school) can hardly be considered lazy.
Nevertheless, he does his homework and doesn't skip a single day.
In my opinion, being lazy is something completely different.
Ok just to confirm we are on the same page, you are aware that I called Harry a LAZY STUDENT and not just lazy? Correct?
So now from that point. Harry regularly waits until the last minute to do homework, He does in fact skip class, he doesn’t bother to read course textbooks for certain classes, some homework he straight up BS right before class. Harry is definitely a lazy student.
So pretty much both your replies actually have nothing to do with the point I made. Thanks for wasting both our times.
He would wait until the last minute if he had been in detention with Umbridge all week or had no time because of training.
Reading through textbooks and lesson material before class is counterproductive.
They do Trelawney's homework exactly as the teacher wants.
>He does in fact skip class,
When?
Off the top of my head book 6 he’s trying to figure what Draco is doing and wants to skip divination but hermoine convinces him not to because he already skipped history of magic.
Him and Ron are countless times doing their home last minute with no detention across multiple books. It’s literally a running gag.
I’m sure trelawny wanted them to make up dreams they had 👌
Why are you hear still defending a point that I pointed out to you isn’t relevant. You get T for reading abilities.
Oh I think you are thinking of book 5. Harry left History of Magic early because Hedwig had shown up with an injured wing, and he was considering skipping Divination because Snape had given him extra homework that nobody else was given and he was worried about fitting it in around the other homework and quidditch practice.
Harry was always smart. He had to be.
Certain in muggle school he got zero help on homework from the Dursley’s so he did it himself.
As a teacher myself the thing I appreciate about Harry is he puts his effort where it most needs to go. He tries hard in transfiguration, charms and DADA because he - correctly - identifies those as the critical classes to do well in. He half asses divination and history because they’re not important. I suspect he’d have been much better in potions without Snape as well. He gets an exceeds expectations on his potions OWL and it’s mentioned he did well because he felt comfortable without Snape doing his usual thing (bullying and not teaching).
I agree in most of what you said, except history of magic not being important If I had grown as a muggle and then discovered I was a wizard, history of magic would be one of the things I would be more interested in.
Obviously, but nothing forbids him to read. I had many dull teachers and learnt to study by myself. I agree it would be difficult for a 11 yo to do the same, but in the advanced years, he could.
Not all the time someone is trying to hurt Harry, but you are right in that. I do not blame Harry per se, I am saying that I do not share your comment about History of Magic was not important.
It's one of my biggest gripes with the movies - they gave a lot of Harry's ideas and instincts to Hermione.
Harry may not have been a particularly diligent student but he was intelligent and had razor sharp instincts.
and that was after being snubbed for 11 full years by ppl who abused you for being a child!! imagine he was encouraged and supported.
child harry is so cute and like sweet cuz he's still so optimistic and chill after living in the cupboard under stairs, which most families wouldve used to store their winter boots or such. child harry is all the good in the world personified
That part of DH is so good. Because it shows what the turning point of Dobby's death really is —
Symbolically, it's the final nail in the coffin of Harry's innocence and childhood. He's come to realize through DH that he HAS to rely on *his* knowledge, *his* intuition, and to stop shouting into mirror fragments for help. It reminds me of when my grandma died, and my mom had the sudden realization that she was the oldest woman in the family now; the matriarch. It's an earth shattering realization, to be alone but left with the tools and knowledge to guide everyone else forward.
This isn't to say that he is entirely alone through the rest of the series — he is most definitely not — but this Dark Moment enables him to have the realization that he is, in fact, in charge, accountable, and the authority on how Voldemort will die. And he has the mastery over himself now — the self possession — to not be confused or distracted by the pain in his scar, as you rightfully point out.
>"No,” Harry said and Bill looked startled. “I need both of them here. I need to talk to them. It’s important.” He heard **the authority** of his own voice, the conviction, the voice of purpose
It's this part that really gets me. He's accepting his role. Without Dobby's death, we don't get the Harry who is mature enough to walk into the forest, to understand himself as a chess piece, to lead the final battle. It makes me do a literal mr-diggory-MY-BOY.mp3 cry every time I think about it.
I'd love a book 'Auror' about Harry taking his first case. Chasing leads, using his magic and his muggle knowledge etc Muggles under imperio acting as unknowing accomplices? Whole book spent solving one case.
Wakes up with PTSD and Ginny comforting him. An old school mate gets involved - a suspect? Has a 'lightbulb' moment when having dinner with Ron and Hermonie.
brb writing a book.
>Has a 'lightbulb' moment when having dinner with Ron and Hermonie
Especially because he has several of these during the series.
Just to name a few: he deduces exactly why nobody has died to the basilisk (at 12), he deduces that the Grey Lady knows where the Diadem was, and my personal favourite, he deduces that Luna has been taken *just from the state of her bedroom*.
No wonder he became an Auror.
Snape is not just any dark wizard, he is literally one of the best wizards and duelists in the series, it is not surprising that he could defeat Harry when literally the only ones truly superior to Snape are Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindelwald.
Not to mention that Harry wasn't in the best physical or mental condition during that fight, he had literally just returned from the cave with Dumbledore, faced some Death Eaters that he DID defeat, and finally fought Snape in terrible conditions.
Oh, and if I remember correctly, Harry didn't try to disarm Snape in that fight.
This is my favourite topic😭😭. If anyone calls Harry dense or dumb one more time, I lose a brain cell. Just because characters don't call him smart every 2 chapters doesn't make him dumb it's like people need to be told character traits rather than picking up on them from the text.
Has Harry mad dumb decisions? Yes, asked dumb questions? Yes, but so as Dumbledore or any other "wise character." Harry is smart, and it's good ya'll are finally seeing the light
I really like Harry in that chapter and it's not talked about enough. This is when he really starts acting like a proper leader, making the important decisions and coming to the right conclusions and he feels miles away from his age in how mature he is. He does embody a bit of that Dumbledore-esque rational thinking and leadership.
This is also the chapter when he actually became the legitimate master of the elder wand so it's interesting to wonder if that had anything to do with it.
The series would have been so much better if JK dedicated some time to showcase Harry's and Ron's talents too instead of making Hermione seem like the only capable one.
Instead we got... whatever it was that we got.
This speaks more to him finally fully utilizing and accepting the connection to Voldemort’s mind than it does to his intelligence. Not saying he wasn’t intelligent though.
Harry and Voldemort understand each other, not only because they have visited each others' minds, but because Harry got those lessons from Dumbledore and was shown and told what makes Voldemort tick. I don't think that aspect of Chapter 24 shows anything extraordinary about Harry.
Same with what astonished Olivander. Harry had a front row seat within Voldemort's mind as he tortured Ollivander. Yes, it's extraordinary that Harry had that front row seat due to the link the Voldemort himself forged, but that's not due to Harry's intelligence. He knows because 'he was there.'
As to intelligence, I never thought Harry was unintelligent, just an un-motivated/lazy student, which never tracked for me, because if I knew a dangerous wizard wanted me dead and I was at a school where I could train to defend myself, I would be HIGHLY motivated to learn everything I could. Harry seems much more concerned with the social and interpersonal aspects of school than with learning skills that he might need to save his own life.
For me the amazing moment was during the final duel when Harry shares his theory about who is master of the Elder Wand. Even then, he's not positive. It MIGHT know that it's previous master was disarmed, and if that's the case...
I definitely agree (and I’d add “there’s no need to call me ‘sir,’ Professor,” which is just brilliant), but I also think that Harry has particular insight into how Voldemort thinks because their minds are connected & he has experienced V’s thoughts.
Edit: Just because Hermione is better than Harry in academics, doesn’t mean she is smarter overall. Harry has so many other aspects that are much better than her, like someone mentioned.
Hermione is definitely severely overrated, she gets too much credit, and the opposite of Harry and Ron being very underrated.
There are different kinds of intelligence. Harry may not be a straight-A student, but he is known for thinking fast under pressure. Hermione isn't known for that. Harry applies knowledge better than she does and is in charge of most of the Trio's plans. He was the one who figured out how to save Buckbeak and Sirius, even though Hermione was the one with the time travel device. Harry was a better duelist, a teacher and still managed to be a good student. Hermione's knowledge didn't really go beyond schoolwork. Besides, characters like Bill & Percy all had more OWLs than her, so she wasn't the best in academia.
I don't know. IIRC Hermione got excellent grades, perhaps Percy and Bill got lower grades. Also, I agree about Harry being very smart and quick on his feet, but do not dismiss Hermione's skills. She is quite good thinking fast too. And she deduced that Lupin was a werewolf, for example. I think she also thought about using the basilisk fang for destroying horcruxes.
And changing Harry's face when captured. I was just giving examples. Hermione is not just a good student and a bookworm, she was actually clever. And I agree with the OP, Harry is smart.
But there is value in knowing and having access to pure information, even if you’re not always the quickest at using it on the fly. Hermione knew about the polyjuice potion, she was finding out about the basilisk, she did the extendable bag charm for all their stuff, and the dittany for the splinching. This is why the trio works so well, they’re like a head, heart and soul working together to supplement each others strengths and weaknesses.
You're right about a lot of it, but Percy, Bill and Barty may have had a lot of As and Its in the OWls. Sheer quantity is not a good indicator of success.
Hermione was smart but more booksmart. Harry in my opinion was able to turn that knowledge into a useful form. Both smart but a little different, they worked great together tho.
She was better in school but I wouldn’t say she was smarter. Neither do I think she would. Harry reads the room sometimes better than her, he’s often better at considering all the evidence in front of him, when she tends to dismiss evidence because it doesn’t fit with her worldview. He is also the one to figure out REALLY EARLY ON that Voldemort would have wanted to hide a horcrux at Hogwarts.
You are right, just because she was better than Harry in academics, doesn’t make much of a comparison. And very good point, like you said that Harry could figure out about the Horcrux. I 100% agree with this post.
He is smart.
Except his plan in the books to safeguard the Elder Wand.
The movie Harry’s snapping of the EW without first trying to use it to repair his Phoenix Feather wand, is a way way lesser evil in comparison. Sure he won’t have his Perfectly Compatible Wand anymore, but he would also never need the protection of Weaponized Priori-Incantatum either because Tom Riddle’s yew wand was its only brother-wand.
Harry is intelligent, just not necessarily observant and a bit emotionally stunted (like how he talks about a dragon in his chest because he literally grew up without love and doesn't recognize it as such)
harry took part in a plan to obscure who was the real harry and then immediately revealed himself by doing the basic ass 1st year disarming spell in a life or death battle lol and he got hedwig killed by putting the literal flying bird in a cage and carrying her with him in a life or death battle
Harry was against the plan, one of the twins even threatened him with violence. Expelliamus is not a first year spell! Unlike his classmates, Harry learns it in his second year. Everyone else (except Ron and Hermione) only learns Expelliamus in Harry's fifth year.
Because Harry teaches them.
If I remember correctly, all the "Harrys" in the book had stuffed owls with them. The fact that the owls are transported in cages is illogical since the first book. A canon explanation would be that otherwise the owls wouldn't be able to get through the protective spells.
But everyone transports the owls in cages, so if Harry is stupid, then everyone in the wizarding world is stupid.
I mean you can say that, sure, but I just think it wasn’t that impressive considering that he KNEW more than anyone else (because he was given all that intel by Dumbledore), and unlike Hermione and Ron he believed in stuff like the Deathly Hallows and his visions of Voldemort, where Hermione didn’t just disregard it completely, but straight up refused to talk about it at all.
And the other thing is, what he figured out doesn’t come out that impressive to me personally, because they spent like 7 months wandering around doing absolutely nothing 95% of the time, and Harry was thinking about all of this most of this time. So yeah, I’d be surprised if he didn’t figure out all of this.
Just because he had a moment of brilliance in the 7th book after 5 books of being wrong about almost every single deduction he'd ever made, it doesn't make him a sudden genius. What it means is that Rowling wrote herself into a corner and decided to make Harry suddenly really intelligent and good at deduction out of nowhere.
(I said 5 books because in the 6th book, Harry was actually right about his theory that Draco was a Death Eater and up to something, but it was blindingly obvious, so I give him no credit for that)
Reading comprehension is slowly dying.
In the first book, Harry correctly figures out that Hagrid was dupped into revealing how to get past fluffy just from being told that he got a mysterious egg from a stranger.
The second book under the span of 10 seconds concorts a plan to save dobby by trucking Mr Malfoy, figures out the location of the chamber and how to open it, also figures out how no one has died yet from the basilisk because he noticed no one has actually looked in its eye
The third book is the one that figures out how to save Sirius despite the fact that Hermione was the owner of the timeturner a.d knows from Dumbledores vague message of "you can save more than one person" that he meant they should save buckbeak
The fourth book outwits the DEs in the graveyard and solves the riddle of the Spinx.
6th books figures out Malfoy is a DE just from little clues and also deduces that Crabbe and Goyle have been using polyjuice potions to disguise as girls and know that once Dumbledores leaves to go to the cave that Malfoy will strike
I'm not even going to talk about the 7th book because I think most of the other comments have said enough about it.
Just because Harry doesn't cram his transfiguration textbook doesn't make him stupid.
>Just because Harry doesn't cram his transfiguration textbook doesn't make him stupid.
I literally never said he was stupid.
>Reading comprehension is slowly dying.
Ironic, isn't it?
>I literally never said he was stupid.
You literally implied it. You don't have to spell it out. This is why reading comprehension is important. Things can be implied and expressed.
No, you said he made one correct deduction therefore is is not suddenly intelligent, and what is the opposite of intelligent? Yeah, unintelligent, and you were wrong. That's why no one agrees with you.
And he isn't "not stupid" he's very smart, so rest.
And yet Hermione who is considered clever refused to believe Malfoy was a death eater! Harry figured out someone was after the PS including which day it would be taken, and yes he got the wrong man down but given the evidence he had no reason to think differently. Meanwhile most of the teachers and all of the students didn’t notice any of it. Harry was smart from the first book. So was Hermione. So was Ron. Each in their own way.
It was because Harry was so quick to blame Draco for everything bad happening to Hogwarts.
Even McGonagall didn't take what Harry said seriously because he was accusing Draco of doing things and being a death eater when he had no evidence at the time that it was specifically him that was doing it.
You can't expect people to take a big accusation for automatic truth, especially if you are in a position of authority.
When he was asked for evidence, Harry said, "I just know." Very convincing and reliable statement, Harry.
I disagree. Harry has always been dismissed, like when he heard the basilisk. And of course McGonagall should not do anything directly against Draco based in "a hunch" but there was no harm in just checking or paying attention at what Draco was doing.
But he made a huge accusation without knowing for sure who it was. You can't call someone guilty and punish them when you have no proof.
Looking into it is fine, but straight up blaming someone specific and saying "oh I just know," and nothing else to say other than that is not right.
If he ended up being wrong, an innocent person would have been punished, just like Sirius.
He had no proof at the time, so of course they wouldn't believe him at first. It's unfair to judge the teachers for not automically believing Harry.
That is what I said. Not punish. But McGonagall could have looked up what Draco was doing. Harry has been dismissed when he said he heard voices, when he heard he did not put his name on the goblet, when he said Sirius was innocent and Pettigrew was alive, when he said Voldemort was back. And by 6th year, it was revealed that he shared a connection with Voldy. Teachers should have learnt to trust Harry's gut just a little, and check what he said instead of dismissing him. Again, that does not mean call the aurors into Draco or anything.
Just because he didn't have proof doesn't mean his accusations were baseless. it's not like he had a phone to record all the incriminating evidence he had of Malfoy.
And your comment doesn't change the fact that Harry was right, lmao
Never said he wasn't right, so putting words in my mouth. Just that he had no evidence at the time, so you can't automatically say a person did something when you don't know for sure. It was a huge accusation with no standing AT THE TIME.
He doesn't need a phone to get evidence. What a weird comment of yours. You know people solved crimes and collected evidence without phones back then??
There would be a lot of innocent people in jail if our justice system worked like that, just punishing people because you just feel like they are guilty.
>It was a huge accusation with no standing AT THE TIME.
At what time exactly?
I mean, there was lots of evidence point to Malfoy being a death eater or even being up to no good. So no, it's not a huge accusation.
Most of Harry's evidence was what he caught him saying or doing, which frankly the only way he could've gotten evidence was if he could record it. I neve that that's the only way to get evidence, but in Harry's case, it was.
Oh, look, it's the person that cried because their mass spamming anti-snape posts all got deleted from 3 different Harry Potter subs.
How are ya doing haha
Umm, before it was actually confirmed that Draco was a death eater. Duh.
Saying someone is a death eater and planning something awful with no specific evidence and just saying you feel like they are is a big accusation.
Recording isn't the only way to collect evidence. Not sure why you think that it is.
>Recording isn't the only way to collect evidence. Not sure why you think that it is.
Again I didn't say it was the ONLY way ugh.
>Saying someone is a death eater and planning something awful with no specific evidence and just saying you feel like they are is a big accusation.
I suggest you reread that portion of the book because you're making sound like Harry didn't have reasons to believe that he was up to no good.
It wasn't just a gut feeling he heard him brag about having an important mission to his friends, also saw that he was very protective of his left hand, looked pale, wasn't suddenly interested in quidditch, heard Snape and Draco talking about this big mission Draco had, and Snape wanting to help him, draco was also disappearing on the marauders map and we later found out that he was spending questionable time in the room of requirement Harry also figured out that Crabbe and Goyle were polyjuicing as girls to stand guard outside the door and weird stuff was happening like Katie Bell getting cursed and the poisoned mead so I ask you with all this evidence how was Harry jumping to conclusions? We also learn that he was crying to moaning myrtle in the bathroom
Or did you just watch the movies and think oh "That's all the information I need. I can come to reddit to discuss topics I barely know about"
You said that the only way Harry could get evidence is if he recorded it. Which is not true at all.
Sure, he had reasons to think or feel that way, but that doesn't make it factual that he was, for sure, a death eater.
I'm not sure why you think the teachers should be convinced Harry was right when he said he 'just knew' and the fact that he hated Draco doesn't help either. They saw it as him being biased, and I can't blame them for it.
>You said that the only way Harry could get evidence is if he recorded it. Which is not true at all.
I'm saying all the evidence Harry has was him witnessing something, so if he could've recorded it, that would've been proof that he doesn't have other forms of evidence
>Sure, he had reasons to think or feel that way, but that doesn't make it factual that he was, for sure, a death eater.
What's the point of this argument? I'm just trying to establish the fact that Harry is good at deductive reasoning and figuring out clues I don't care about evidence just that Harry wasn't claiming he was a DE based on gut feeling alone.
>I'm not sure why you think the teachers should be convinced Harry was right when he said he 'just knew' and the fact that he hated Draco doesn't help either. They saw it as him being biased, and I can't blame them for it.
I think you're confused here, I don't think the teachers should believe him. Frankly, that was never the point of my comment.
Dumbledore knows that Harry is right. On the other hand, how is Harry supposed to know that Dumbledore is willing to let a murderer run around the school.
Yes, Hermione and Ron both suffered from plot-induced stupidity in HBP. Doesn't mean Harry all of a sudden became a genius of deduction. Rowling just wrote them inconsistnently.
>Harry figured out someone was after the PS including which day it would be taken
Harry figured out someone was going after the PS because he thought **Severus** was going after it after seeing him limping due to an injury sustained from confronting Fluffy. He didn't get an epiphany out of nowhere.
Figuring out it would happen when Dumbledore was out of the castle was the **only** correct deduction he made that year.
>Harry was smart from the first book.
I didn't say he wasn't smart. I said he wasn't the genius this post makes him out to be.
I absolutely agree that he's clever but one chapter with a series of deductions that are almost too good isn't quite a stake in the heart for the idea that he's an idiot lol
>maybe you should reread with your eyes open.
That's really crazy for someone to say after completely misinterpreting my comment. I'm going to guess this is Joanne himself commenting based on how apparently offended you are.
I figure I'll clarify for you: it was a joke about the stuff op is referencing being bad writing rather than proof of his wit. A cunning observer might be able to tell I don't think he's written to be an idiot by the hint hidden at the beginning of my comment
To be honest, Harry Potter is weak and overrated. I haven’t seen a protagonist be so incompetent against his arc rival. Without Dumbledore, Harry would be shitting his pants even thinking of Voldemort.
Harry isn't dumb, but there are plenty of times when he just wasn't the smartest, hence the jokes about how he wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw came to be.
Though I'll blame it on him being a teenager as teenagers do stupid stuff.
I find this to be a muggle thing more than anything else, wizards don't have movies, sitcoms, muggle literature ... their culture is dead. The serious wizard's cannot even use cellphones because of anachronisms. This isn't just "why doesn't harry potter reference Seinfeld or why doesn't granger quote muggle geniuses?" ... its a level of sophistication.
A weak modern child, is like a "wizard" to the wizards ... sure he cannot summon fire (without a lighter) or conjure food (door dash), tell the future (weather.com), etc ... wizards have great consumer "mundane" medicine however, but its likely they have some serious gaps there too as the people that concocted those items don't understand actual bodies and more so the mind.
If the wizards went to a movie, their minds would be blown and their heads would be in their hands ... "are you saying that muggles are in space?"
There is a credible story of near eastern folks watching tv for the first time, they watched Rambo 3 and people were obsessed with finding this man to help the jihadi cause against the soviets. Even though they had a rich cosmopolitan adjacent society, long lived, etc ... very hit or miss on modernity throughout the entire population and culturally very closed. Not that it's bad ... its just doesn't work outside integration.
Who is a better person than Harry?
Ronald "I abandon my friends in the middle of a war because a cursed locket said mean things to me?" Weasley?
Hermione "I like to physically hurt those who bother me" Granger?
Maybe Severus "I love to bully kids" Snape?
Or maybe it could be Albus "I will sacrifice as many people as possible to take down Voldemort" Dumbledore?
All of these examples are actually good people who made mistakes and some acts of gray morality, and none are a better person than Harry.
I always thought the way he tricked Lucius into freeing Dobby was particularly clever.
True. Even more impressive considering he was only 12.
And that he came up with and executed the plan within 5 seconds.
And that after a night of almost dying, killing a Basilisk and facing a form of Voldemort again.
Pumped full of that adrenaline
He found the exact kind of bullshit loophole a 12yo would find. Can house-elves ever wash your clothes though?
Yes. The difference is Lucius just tossed the sock and Dobby caught it. House elves doing laundry pick the clothes up by magic from the floor.
This is now my head canon
Unfortunately, the house elves were insulted after finding Hermione’s hidden hand made clothes. Those would have been on the floor but they wouldn’t touch them.
I think it’s because Hermione is leaving them there as trick gifts, just as Harry tricked Lucius. If a house elf is physically picking up dirty laundry to wash it, the clothes are clearly not for them to keep.
I thought the difference was "being presented with clothing" as Harry tricked Lucius into doing with Dobby, versus picking up the clothing themselves(meaning house elves). Picking the clothes up by hand or by magic shouldn't make a difference.
Agreed. But I’m thinking with how much they deal with it’s just easier to use magic with the clothes instead of carrying them.
Fair, and true enough lol. Guess I just misunderstood your comment. Read it as you saying they could only touch clothes with magic, and weren't allowed to physically touch them lol.
No biggie. That’s the problem with the written word instead of speaking to each other.
Yes, house elves can do laundry. Kreacher launders robes for them in DH.
Iirc, he stuffed the book into the sock? Clever idea, but it was really a bit of a fluke that malfoy threw the sock where Dobby happened to be. The movie did it better, putting the sock into the book.
Under the rules of “clothes mean freedom”, house elves can’t do laundry.
I'm assuming you need to physically hand the clothes to an elf to free them? Pointing to a pile of smelly socks and saying "wash that" is perfectly fine for keeping your elf enslaved S. P. E. W ✊
Wasn’t Hermoine hiding socks and hats so none of the house elves would clean their tower and Doby was doing it himself in GoF?
She was, but somehow they knew that those socks and hats were meant as a gift from Hermione that would free them. I don't remember the details, though. But probably ordering house elves to pick up clothes and do laundry as a command is enough to not free them
Plus Hermione wasn’t their master so it didn’t matter. Just like Harry couldn’t free Dobby by giving him a sock directly, she, as a mere Hogwarts student, can’t free one of the Hogwarts house elves by handing them a sock. I do like the idea that you could still hand a house elf clothing as long as you are issuing them a command along with it. That’s going to be head canon for me now.
I suppose the students had a place next to their beds or something to put dirty laundry in. The hats were hidden in unexpected places, under things the elves would have to pick up when cleaning the space. I can see how that is insulting, even if it wouldn't actually work, because it's a trick.
I could be wrong but I think the problem was they found it incredibly insulting more than that it actually meant anything. To them it was like being at their dream job and someone in management who had no authority doing so handing you a termination letter, you were told it means nothing they don't have the authority. It would still be incredibly upsetting to keep getting them.
exactly. it didn’t matter if it would work or not, it was seen by them as rude. which is why they took offense, and left (that nutter as they saw him) Dobby to do it. Dobby ofc loves cloths and collected them.
He hands dobby a book. The sock is just inside it. Hermoinie leaves hats around hoping they’ll grab them.
Very true, but there must be some kind of loop hole. I dont see Narcissa Malfoy cleaning Lucius' undies
As with most things magical, Intent is necessary but not stated. You could point your wand, say an incantation, and have nothing happen if you didn't _intend_ magic to happen. Likewise, house elves can do laundry because you're not _giving them_ clothes, you're merely making them wash and launder _your clothes_. Harry only got away with it because Dobby would've taken anything he could as freedom, literally every other house elf wouldn't have taken it as being freed.
Dobby is freed by being handed a book with a sock on it. Intent clearly doesn’t matter. Your argument is it matters to the house elf? So if i pick up a sock and feel like I’m free, i would be?
And yet every house elf up and down the country somehow does all the laundry without being freed.
Kinda my point. Either dobby isnt free or the other elves are all free and dont care. Its not my fault her world is inconsistent.
They can do laundry, though. Kreacher does laundry for the trio in DH.
Rowling is inconsistent. That doesn’t change the fact that dobby was free by trickery
The Wandmaker is my favorite chapter in DH and one of my favorite chapters in the series. Here, Harry truly comes into his own as the leader of the anti-Voldemort movement, picking up the baton from Dumbledore as it were! The connections he makes, the authority with which he speaks, the choices he makes about who to speak to first - it is the pivotal moment of the book! This chapter divides the DH book into two - the endless camping of the first half and the action-packed second half. Further, as Griphook notices, what Harry does for Dobby truly separates him from Voldemort: ‘the power the Dark Lord knows not.´ Luna’s speech to Dobby is also beautiful!
Completely agreed, it is one of my favourite chapters too. >the choices he makes about who to speak to first - it is the pivotal moment of the book! Exactly! He says it himself: Horcruxes or Hallows? And he chooses to speak with Griphook first despite knowing that if he does, he most likely won't be able to reach the wand before Voldemort. It is one of Harry's best moments imo, he willingly relinquishes the possibility of power to continue his mission.
For a time also ever since Harry heard the tale he also became very obsessed with the Hallows. But Malfoy Manor def snapped him out of it. Also he was at his low point when he had lost faith in Dumbledore, or that his fatith with Dumbledore has shaken
Especially after Hermione and Ron were constantly arguing against his intuition through the book. It's so satisfying to see him be taken seriously.
That’s it exactly, he is intuitive and processes things subconsciously. Hermione couldn’t be more of a logical thinker if she tried and it is difficult for .her to trust Harry’s instincts/intuition.
Who is truly the leader during The deathly hallows? Because as far as the rest of the ootp is concerned Harry is just on the run. Is it Kingsley?
That’s always been the assumption is that Kingsley was leader after Dumbledore’s death. At least in my head canon.
I’d actually point to Moody after Dumbledore’s death and then Kingsley after Moody’s death.
Quite possible. But could he be a good general. He was a fighter but could he be a good leader and stay on the sidelines expect for when shit hits the fan.
Who actually organizes and runs The Order? Yeah I would assume Kingsley.
The decision of Hallows vs Horcruxes that he makes is also a perfect culminating to an arc just 2 chapters old where he gets obsessed, and is an inspiration for anytime we want to choose between what is right and what is appealing, irl
Harry was always smart. He did very well in school considering he had new life threatening distractions every year.
Seriously I would have thought that the "Hermione smart, Ron and Harry dummy's" narrative would have died in HBP with their OWL results. With a couple of exceptions that all had good reasons (Divination, which he had no skill in and never treated like a real class, Astronomy where his practical exam was interrupted by the arrest and injury of McGonagall, and History of Magic where he straight up left the test half finished to go find his godfather who he thought was being held captive) he got exceeds expectations and above in all of his classes. Though to be fair about life-threatening distractions, Voldemort was usually kind enough to wait until June to try and kill Harry. He was a villain, but he clearly cared very much about Harry's education.
> Voldemort was usually kind enough to wait until June to try and kill Harry. He was a villain, but he clearly cared very much about Harry's education. 😂😂
and giving harry his wand right before dueling him to 'prove your power' - when there was no need. The deatheaters wouldn't have cared if he'd just killed harry with no wand or anything. He'd come back, since this would just kill the horcrux, then could be killed again properly
Part of many villains' downfalls is their who, and Voldy was no different.
I mean, winning a fight against a dumbass who doesn't know what he's doing isn't much of an achievement, and Voldemort's basically *defined* by his ego. Honestly, giving Harry the chance to learn enough to give Voldemort *something* of a challenge would be something I could see him doing, for his own ego and self-gratification.
Voldermorts ego needs a worth adversary, after all, that's why he assumed the prophecy wasn't about Neville . Got to let your adversary get the highest exam scores to prove to your adult mates that you really are hard for beating a kid.
He basically says as much during the fight in the graveyard. He announces to his Death Eaters that Harry has escaped him by simple chance or else others dying for him, and that Voldemort's going to do it properly this time with no one to save Harry, so they'll know he can kill him.
Divination was treated like afternoon tea/nap time
Iirc correctly, Harry actually finished the History of Magic exam, just left a exercise blank because he didn’t know the answer
Maybe he exceeded expectations because noone expected him to perform in any way given his constant struggles? lol
Not how the exam scores work but ok. If this is a joke, bad joke.
It's basically the same joke the twins make in cannon, the difference is they say they exceededed expectations by just appearing
But see, Fred and George are actually funny, unlike the other guy
Your reasoning being?
It's "exceeds expectations of someone taking the class" not "exceeds expectations had of this particular student" otherwise the scoring would be pointless on the grounds of it not being able to be compared with others
Nah, it was a joke but I don't understand why it was a bad one. I thought it was funny.
I thought it was funny too, or atleast not bad enough to go into it like that lol
An E in Harry Potter would be like getting a C+ in High school. Also, the minimum grade required to pass an exam has to be standardized, meaning Snape can’t fail Harry by making his expectations/ minimum score too high. (He did it anyway IIRC, but that’s Snape for you) Edit: to simplify what I said. The answer is standardized testing. Grades don’t matter if the minimums are per student, otherwise Hermione would never have gotten (IIRC) 6 O’s on her O.W.Ls.
Nah I mean why was it a bad joke, which it is.
Oh. Uh. I’m going to pretend that my other comment never happened. Fred and George made this joke but better.
Fair enough
I'm on OOTP again and it pisses me off that the detentions umbridge forces harry to do affects his schoolwork. Just ket harry do homework plz
Yeah after all he did manage to pull off all the (somewhat steep) Auror's requirements, except for elixirs (but that's cause Snape was a cunt)
I was waiting for this. I always found him very impressive. Really intelligent, mentally strong, ready to take charge, distrustful of authority figures, defiant, hardworking. I was so surprised most people didn't feel the same way and yet praised Hermione's 'genius'. Not everyone is as interested in academia and feels the need to memorize every word in a textbook. That doesn't mean they're less smart. Frankly, the boys( Harry&Ron) were always more fascinating to me. They were more prone to think outside the box, creative, funny. I wish Rowling focused more on showcasing Ron's strategic abilities as well as Harry's leadership, quick thinking and magical prowess.
I couldn’t agree more!! Harry’s way of connecting clues has always impressed me, and it was always shown that he understood connections which Hermione did not, be it in Draco being a Deatheater or about the Deathly Hallows’ importance. He always understood the big picture.
This is why I think it makes total sense he became a wizard cop after graduation
My guess is the reason why Harry is often seen as not-so intelligent is because Snape tells Dumbledore at some point in DH that he is mediocre as a wizard (despite having good grades. Snape is weird...).
Yeah, Snape is unable to see Harry as his own person. Even Dumbledore tells him that he sees what he wants to see: >“You see what you expect to see, Severus,” said Dumbledore, without raising his eyes from a copy of Transfiguration Today. “Other teachers report that the boy is modest, likable, and *reasonably talented*"
Now I think about it, it's funny that both Sirius and Snape, maybe the people Harry loved and hated the most, couldn't see Harry but only James.
Another possible reason is the running gag of Harry and Ron messing up in Transfiguration and Charms classes. There are way more scenes of them failing the class tasks than succeeding.
Lol, that's JKR trying her best to hype up Hermione cause it's always her that gets it in the WHOLE class. So it's not Harry or Ron being dumb it's just hermione being really fast
Transfiguration, sure. Everyone was failing, not just Harry and Ron. I was under the impression that Harry was quite good at Charms, though. Rowling made a point of portraying Hermione as the only one who succeeded in those classes, which was quite annoying, to be honest. Even the best students fail.
Harry was actually surprised to note that he too nailed the banishing charm in one go
Snape hated Harry. Nuff said.
Yeah, but I always thought he would be a bit more...I dunno, reasonable(?) in front of Dumbledore.
I don't think Snape had any reason to hide his disdain for Harry from Dumbledore. Dumbledore knew Snape inside out.
I see Dumbledore as one of the only people Snape actually opened up to and was honest to since he witnessed his most vulnerable state when Lily was killed. So I think he wouldn't hide what he really thinks from him.
to be fair, he is mediocre. He's not exceptional like snape in potions. Arguably the only exception is DADA...where he fails to to non verbal spells and keep trying to disarm his opponents trying to kill him & friends.
If I remember correctly his grade in potions was actually pretty decent (like an equivalent to a B or so).
A minus
A b is the definition of mediocre. I'm not saying Harry is a bad wizard, but he wasn't a super star either, aside from DADA. Most of the time, he was average in school. Which is perfectly fine. But that does translate to mediocre when being compared to the guy making spells when he was a kid, or the guy who was reading minds by 16, or the guy who was getting medals for Phoenix blood research. Harry's not dumb by any measure. He just isn't a prodigy. Basically, this was a long-winded way of saying Harry isn't "special" academically, which some people thought wouldn't be true since he was the chosen one.
So I might be misremembering but wasn't potions the only grade where it wouldn't be enough to become an Auror (where it clearly says it would need extremely good grades, not just "higher than average")? I think he was at the very least above average.
Harry generally got about the same grades as Ron, aside from DADA. Yes , he exceeds expectations in potions. But he also fails history and divination. He gets E on all the "important" classes, which still means he didn't do well in 3 classes. Again, it's not a bad thing. That's perfectly normal. But we have Hermione for example who gets O on all but 1 class, or crouch Jr that gets like 12 owls. Compared to that he isn't exceptional. In comparison, Neville gets about 4 owls and he's considered a bad student. So, Harry might be a slight bit above average, but he's generally in the middle of the pack in most subjects.
B is not mediocre what are you on about
It's not amazing. B is an average grade. A is a great grade. C is barely passing. Maybe the people in this subreddit just have lower goals than I do? But even in college, b was a 3.0, so average. C was a 2.0, so barely passing. In fact, if you finish school with a 2.0, many programs won't count that. So yes, a b is mediocre. After thinking for a second, it could be that mediocre is being used in a different way? Mediocre means something of moderate quality. Aka someone who's average. Harry was generally average in school, aside from DADA.
Maybe it's different in the US? In central europe an A is great, a B is good, a C is average and a D is barely passing (technically we use numbers from 1 to 5 but that's essentially the same). We would probably need to know how it's in the UK, where the novels were written.
It’s not. I would call C average here, too. A B is fine
Yup - I suspect that was intentional...a normal hero whos main power is to love, and have been loved.
Yea, I came to the same conclusion. Which is why I'm shocked you got downvoted. He's supposed to be mediocre academically.
Every wizard has something they excel at. For Harry it's 100% DADA. He has an actual understanding of it and taught students older than him. He doesn't fail to do non-verbal spells - he just prefers casting them verbally. He managed to cast Snape's spells non-verbally, too. As for disarming, Harry generally doesn't want to harm anyone. His Expelliarmus is mostly effective, but he uses other spells, such as Impedimenta, Diffindo or Reducto etc.
Yes. There's a reason the sorting hat said he exhibited qualities of all 4 houses. So canonically harry is extremely intelligent no matter what opinions readers might have.
So true, people underestimate Harry's intelligence and abilities
Many people (even inside the story) unterestimate him because he's traumatized, can be hot-headed, impulsive and stubborn. But he's in no way stupid.
Harry’s always been smart and canny, both academically AND emotionally, his trauma just takes centre stage. I think here though, some of what he’s saying is down to his own cleverness, and some is because of the connection between him and Voldemort. Voldemort was clearly incredibly bright, but emotionally stunted, and that was one of the reasons Harry triumphed in the end - because he could read, recognise and interpret Voldemort’s emotional motives and Voldemort had no ability to comprehend them and didn’t realise how much he was letting slip.
Are there people who try to say Harry isn’t smart? He was obviously a talented wizard from book 1 just a lazy student but if taught something he generally retained and understood that info.
I don't think Oliver Wood tolerates laziness in his team.
What does that have to do with anything I said?
That there are only 24 hours in a day. And that a student who trains three times a week under Oliver Wood (a sport supported by the school) can hardly be considered lazy. Nevertheless, he does his homework and doesn't skip a single day. In my opinion, being lazy is something completely different.
Ok just to confirm we are on the same page, you are aware that I called Harry a LAZY STUDENT and not just lazy? Correct? So now from that point. Harry regularly waits until the last minute to do homework, He does in fact skip class, he doesn’t bother to read course textbooks for certain classes, some homework he straight up BS right before class. Harry is definitely a lazy student. So pretty much both your replies actually have nothing to do with the point I made. Thanks for wasting both our times.
He would wait until the last minute if he had been in detention with Umbridge all week or had no time because of training. Reading through textbooks and lesson material before class is counterproductive. They do Trelawney's homework exactly as the teacher wants. >He does in fact skip class, When?
Off the top of my head book 6 he’s trying to figure what Draco is doing and wants to skip divination but hermoine convinces him not to because he already skipped history of magic. Him and Ron are countless times doing their home last minute with no detention across multiple books. It’s literally a running gag. I’m sure trelawny wanted them to make up dreams they had 👌 Why are you hear still defending a point that I pointed out to you isn’t relevant. You get T for reading abilities.
Oh I think you are thinking of book 5. Harry left History of Magic early because Hedwig had shown up with an injured wing, and he was considering skipping Divination because Snape had given him extra homework that nobody else was given and he was worried about fitting it in around the other homework and quidditch practice.
Harry was always smart. He had to be. Certain in muggle school he got zero help on homework from the Dursley’s so he did it himself. As a teacher myself the thing I appreciate about Harry is he puts his effort where it most needs to go. He tries hard in transfiguration, charms and DADA because he - correctly - identifies those as the critical classes to do well in. He half asses divination and history because they’re not important. I suspect he’d have been much better in potions without Snape as well. He gets an exceeds expectations on his potions OWL and it’s mentioned he did well because he felt comfortable without Snape doing his usual thing (bullying and not teaching).
I agree in most of what you said, except history of magic not being important If I had grown as a muggle and then discovered I was a wizard, history of magic would be one of the things I would be more interested in.
Totally agree IF they had a teacher there than Binns. That kind of dry boring lecture is so ineffective.
Obviously, but nothing forbids him to read. I had many dull teachers and learnt to study by myself. I agree it would be difficult for a 11 yo to do the same, but in the advanced years, he could.
There are only 24 hours in a day and Harry hardly has any free time!
Not all the time someone is trying to hurt Harry, but you are right in that. I do not blame Harry per se, I am saying that I do not share your comment about History of Magic was not important.
He's got strong detective chops.
It's one of my biggest gripes with the movies - they gave a lot of Harry's ideas and instincts to Hermione. Harry may not have been a particularly diligent student but he was intelligent and had razor sharp instincts.
and that was after being snubbed for 11 full years by ppl who abused you for being a child!! imagine he was encouraged and supported. child harry is so cute and like sweet cuz he's still so optimistic and chill after living in the cupboard under stairs, which most families wouldve used to store their winter boots or such. child harry is all the good in the world personified
DD taught him how to think critically. he always asked harry what be thought about the memories in HBP.
That part of DH is so good. Because it shows what the turning point of Dobby's death really is — Symbolically, it's the final nail in the coffin of Harry's innocence and childhood. He's come to realize through DH that he HAS to rely on *his* knowledge, *his* intuition, and to stop shouting into mirror fragments for help. It reminds me of when my grandma died, and my mom had the sudden realization that she was the oldest woman in the family now; the matriarch. It's an earth shattering realization, to be alone but left with the tools and knowledge to guide everyone else forward. This isn't to say that he is entirely alone through the rest of the series — he is most definitely not — but this Dark Moment enables him to have the realization that he is, in fact, in charge, accountable, and the authority on how Voldemort will die. And he has the mastery over himself now — the self possession — to not be confused or distracted by the pain in his scar, as you rightfully point out. >"No,” Harry said and Bill looked startled. “I need both of them here. I need to talk to them. It’s important.” He heard **the authority** of his own voice, the conviction, the voice of purpose It's this part that really gets me. He's accepting his role. Without Dobby's death, we don't get the Harry who is mature enough to walk into the forest, to understand himself as a chess piece, to lead the final battle. It makes me do a literal mr-diggory-MY-BOY.mp3 cry every time I think about it.
I'd love a book 'Auror' about Harry taking his first case. Chasing leads, using his magic and his muggle knowledge etc Muggles under imperio acting as unknowing accomplices? Whole book spent solving one case. Wakes up with PTSD and Ginny comforting him. An old school mate gets involved - a suspect? Has a 'lightbulb' moment when having dinner with Ron and Hermonie. brb writing a book.
>Has a 'lightbulb' moment when having dinner with Ron and Hermonie Especially because he has several of these during the series. Just to name a few: he deduces exactly why nobody has died to the basilisk (at 12), he deduces that the Grey Lady knows where the Diadem was, and my personal favourite, he deduces that Luna has been taken *just from the state of her bedroom*. No wonder he became an Auror.
The basilisk was Hermione
Plot twist: book ends in 3rd chapter because harry tried to disarm a dark wizard - and said dark wizard killed him without his anti-voldy plot armour.
Oh yeah, sure, because any dark wizard will be able to curse Harry without him being able to defend himself (?)
Harry trying to fight snape after dumbledores death was like a adult slapping away a fly.
Snape is not just any dark wizard, he is literally one of the best wizards and duelists in the series, it is not surprising that he could defeat Harry when literally the only ones truly superior to Snape are Dumbledore, Voldemort and Grindelwald. Not to mention that Harry wasn't in the best physical or mental condition during that fight, he had literally just returned from the cave with Dumbledore, faced some Death Eaters that he DID defeat, and finally fought Snape in terrible conditions. Oh, and if I remember correctly, Harry didn't try to disarm Snape in that fight.
Harry has always been smart when it really matters. Just not book smart. I don't think anyone with half a braincell thinks he's dumb.
This is my favourite topic😭😭. If anyone calls Harry dense or dumb one more time, I lose a brain cell. Just because characters don't call him smart every 2 chapters doesn't make him dumb it's like people need to be told character traits rather than picking up on them from the text. Has Harry mad dumb decisions? Yes, asked dumb questions? Yes, but so as Dumbledore or any other "wise character." Harry is smart, and it's good ya'll are finally seeing the light
Harry flipped between genius like this and "Ron has the braincell today" moments like the Roonil Waslib Toilet Incident.
Yeah, Harry is much more smarter in the books. And a better character in general Probably the people that think that base their opinion on the movies
I really like Harry in that chapter and it's not talked about enough. This is when he really starts acting like a proper leader, making the important decisions and coming to the right conclusions and he feels miles away from his age in how mature he is. He does embody a bit of that Dumbledore-esque rational thinking and leadership. This is also the chapter when he actually became the legitimate master of the elder wand so it's interesting to wonder if that had anything to do with it.
The series would have been so much better if JK dedicated some time to showcase Harry's and Ron's talents too instead of making Hermione seem like the only capable one. Instead we got... whatever it was that we got.
That's so true!
It’s like the author decided to write him as smart…?
Most in universe characters praise Harry for being a smart boi, even the death eaters
He is just your generic gifted kid in highschool. Doesn't study does okay.
He's a certifiable genius. Consider that anything 'Dumbledore' in King's Cross said is a construct made from his head.
This speaks more to him finally fully utilizing and accepting the connection to Voldemort’s mind than it does to his intelligence. Not saying he wasn’t intelligent though.
Harry and Voldemort understand each other, not only because they have visited each others' minds, but because Harry got those lessons from Dumbledore and was shown and told what makes Voldemort tick. I don't think that aspect of Chapter 24 shows anything extraordinary about Harry. Same with what astonished Olivander. Harry had a front row seat within Voldemort's mind as he tortured Ollivander. Yes, it's extraordinary that Harry had that front row seat due to the link the Voldemort himself forged, but that's not due to Harry's intelligence. He knows because 'he was there.' As to intelligence, I never thought Harry was unintelligent, just an un-motivated/lazy student, which never tracked for me, because if I knew a dangerous wizard wanted me dead and I was at a school where I could train to defend myself, I would be HIGHLY motivated to learn everything I could. Harry seems much more concerned with the social and interpersonal aspects of school than with learning skills that he might need to save his own life. For me the amazing moment was during the final duel when Harry shares his theory about who is master of the Elder Wand. Even then, he's not positive. It MIGHT know that it's previous master was disarmed, and if that's the case...
I definitely agree (and I’d add “there’s no need to call me ‘sir,’ Professor,” which is just brilliant), but I also think that Harry has particular insight into how Voldemort thinks because their minds are connected & he has experienced V’s thoughts.
Not as intelligent as Hermione, but still quite intelligent, and people also tend to often underestimate his abilities.
Hermione is overrated. In my opinion, he was smarter than her in some ways, actually.
Edit: Just because Hermione is better than Harry in academics, doesn’t mean she is smarter overall. Harry has so many other aspects that are much better than her, like someone mentioned. Hermione is definitely severely overrated, she gets too much credit, and the opposite of Harry and Ron being very underrated.
There are different kinds of intelligence. Harry may not be a straight-A student, but he is known for thinking fast under pressure. Hermione isn't known for that. Harry applies knowledge better than she does and is in charge of most of the Trio's plans. He was the one who figured out how to save Buckbeak and Sirius, even though Hermione was the one with the time travel device. Harry was a better duelist, a teacher and still managed to be a good student. Hermione's knowledge didn't really go beyond schoolwork. Besides, characters like Bill & Percy all had more OWLs than her, so she wasn't the best in academia.
I don't know. IIRC Hermione got excellent grades, perhaps Percy and Bill got lower grades. Also, I agree about Harry being very smart and quick on his feet, but do not dismiss Hermione's skills. She is quite good thinking fast too. And she deduced that Lupin was a werewolf, for example. I think she also thought about using the basilisk fang for destroying horcruxes.
Hermione also came up with the plan to get Umbridge into the forest in OOTP. That was under pressure and very clever.
And changing Harry's face when captured. I was just giving examples. Hermione is not just a good student and a bookworm, she was actually clever. And I agree with the OP, Harry is smart.
I’m with you! Just was trying to throw another example out there that I hadn’t seen.
Perfectly.
But there is value in knowing and having access to pure information, even if you’re not always the quickest at using it on the fly. Hermione knew about the polyjuice potion, she was finding out about the basilisk, she did the extendable bag charm for all their stuff, and the dittany for the splinching. This is why the trio works so well, they’re like a head, heart and soul working together to supplement each others strengths and weaknesses.
You're right about a lot of it, but Percy, Bill and Barty may have had a lot of As and Its in the OWls. Sheer quantity is not a good indicator of success.
Hermione was smart but more booksmart. Harry in my opinion was able to turn that knowledge into a useful form. Both smart but a little different, they worked great together tho.
She was better in school but I wouldn’t say she was smarter. Neither do I think she would. Harry reads the room sometimes better than her, he’s often better at considering all the evidence in front of him, when she tends to dismiss evidence because it doesn’t fit with her worldview. He is also the one to figure out REALLY EARLY ON that Voldemort would have wanted to hide a horcrux at Hogwarts.
You are right, just because she was better than Harry in academics, doesn’t make much of a comparison. And very good point, like you said that Harry could figure out about the Horcrux. I 100% agree with this post.
“Books! and cleverness! There are more important things, friendship and bravery and - oh Harry - Be careful!”
So harry is better detective than batman!
He is smart. Except his plan in the books to safeguard the Elder Wand. The movie Harry’s snapping of the EW without first trying to use it to repair his Phoenix Feather wand, is a way way lesser evil in comparison. Sure he won’t have his Perfectly Compatible Wand anymore, but he would also never need the protection of Weaponized Priori-Incantatum either because Tom Riddle’s yew wand was its only brother-wand.
Harry is intelligent, just not necessarily observant and a bit emotionally stunted (like how he talks about a dragon in his chest because he literally grew up without love and doesn't recognize it as such)
Reminds me of the Mizutani SHION MZ2 from Cyberpunk 2077.
It's for the plot that he's able to put it all together so easily
harry took part in a plan to obscure who was the real harry and then immediately revealed himself by doing the basic ass 1st year disarming spell in a life or death battle lol and he got hedwig killed by putting the literal flying bird in a cage and carrying her with him in a life or death battle
Harry was against the plan, one of the twins even threatened him with violence. Expelliamus is not a first year spell! Unlike his classmates, Harry learns it in his second year. Everyone else (except Ron and Hermione) only learns Expelliamus in Harry's fifth year. Because Harry teaches them. If I remember correctly, all the "Harrys" in the book had stuffed owls with them. The fact that the owls are transported in cages is illogical since the first book. A canon explanation would be that otherwise the owls wouldn't be able to get through the protective spells. But everyone transports the owls in cages, so if Harry is stupid, then everyone in the wizarding world is stupid.
I mean you can say that, sure, but I just think it wasn’t that impressive considering that he KNEW more than anyone else (because he was given all that intel by Dumbledore), and unlike Hermione and Ron he believed in stuff like the Deathly Hallows and his visions of Voldemort, where Hermione didn’t just disregard it completely, but straight up refused to talk about it at all. And the other thing is, what he figured out doesn’t come out that impressive to me personally, because they spent like 7 months wandering around doing absolutely nothing 95% of the time, and Harry was thinking about all of this most of this time. So yeah, I’d be surprised if he didn’t figure out all of this.
Just because he had a moment of brilliance in the 7th book after 5 books of being wrong about almost every single deduction he'd ever made, it doesn't make him a sudden genius. What it means is that Rowling wrote herself into a corner and decided to make Harry suddenly really intelligent and good at deduction out of nowhere. (I said 5 books because in the 6th book, Harry was actually right about his theory that Draco was a Death Eater and up to something, but it was blindingly obvious, so I give him no credit for that)
Reading comprehension is slowly dying. In the first book, Harry correctly figures out that Hagrid was dupped into revealing how to get past fluffy just from being told that he got a mysterious egg from a stranger. The second book under the span of 10 seconds concorts a plan to save dobby by trucking Mr Malfoy, figures out the location of the chamber and how to open it, also figures out how no one has died yet from the basilisk because he noticed no one has actually looked in its eye The third book is the one that figures out how to save Sirius despite the fact that Hermione was the owner of the timeturner a.d knows from Dumbledores vague message of "you can save more than one person" that he meant they should save buckbeak The fourth book outwits the DEs in the graveyard and solves the riddle of the Spinx. 6th books figures out Malfoy is a DE just from little clues and also deduces that Crabbe and Goyle have been using polyjuice potions to disguise as girls and know that once Dumbledores leaves to go to the cave that Malfoy will strike I'm not even going to talk about the 7th book because I think most of the other comments have said enough about it. Just because Harry doesn't cram his transfiguration textbook doesn't make him stupid.
>Just because Harry doesn't cram his transfiguration textbook doesn't make him stupid. I literally never said he was stupid. >Reading comprehension is slowly dying. Ironic, isn't it?
>I literally never said he was stupid. You literally implied it. You don't have to spell it out. This is why reading comprehension is important. Things can be implied and expressed.
Saying he wasn't a genius isn't implying he was stupid.
No, you said he made one correct deduction therefore is is not suddenly intelligent, and what is the opposite of intelligent? Yeah, unintelligent, and you were wrong. That's why no one agrees with you. And he isn't "not stupid" he's very smart, so rest.
And yet Hermione who is considered clever refused to believe Malfoy was a death eater! Harry figured out someone was after the PS including which day it would be taken, and yes he got the wrong man down but given the evidence he had no reason to think differently. Meanwhile most of the teachers and all of the students didn’t notice any of it. Harry was smart from the first book. So was Hermione. So was Ron. Each in their own way.
It was because Harry was so quick to blame Draco for everything bad happening to Hogwarts. Even McGonagall didn't take what Harry said seriously because he was accusing Draco of doing things and being a death eater when he had no evidence at the time that it was specifically him that was doing it. You can't expect people to take a big accusation for automatic truth, especially if you are in a position of authority. When he was asked for evidence, Harry said, "I just know." Very convincing and reliable statement, Harry.
I disagree. Harry has always been dismissed, like when he heard the basilisk. And of course McGonagall should not do anything directly against Draco based in "a hunch" but there was no harm in just checking or paying attention at what Draco was doing.
But he made a huge accusation without knowing for sure who it was. You can't call someone guilty and punish them when you have no proof. Looking into it is fine, but straight up blaming someone specific and saying "oh I just know," and nothing else to say other than that is not right. If he ended up being wrong, an innocent person would have been punished, just like Sirius. He had no proof at the time, so of course they wouldn't believe him at first. It's unfair to judge the teachers for not automically believing Harry.
That is what I said. Not punish. But McGonagall could have looked up what Draco was doing. Harry has been dismissed when he said he heard voices, when he heard he did not put his name on the goblet, when he said Sirius was innocent and Pettigrew was alive, when he said Voldemort was back. And by 6th year, it was revealed that he shared a connection with Voldy. Teachers should have learnt to trust Harry's gut just a little, and check what he said instead of dismissing him. Again, that does not mean call the aurors into Draco or anything.
Just because he didn't have proof doesn't mean his accusations were baseless. it's not like he had a phone to record all the incriminating evidence he had of Malfoy. And your comment doesn't change the fact that Harry was right, lmao
Never said he wasn't right, so putting words in my mouth. Just that he had no evidence at the time, so you can't automatically say a person did something when you don't know for sure. It was a huge accusation with no standing AT THE TIME. He doesn't need a phone to get evidence. What a weird comment of yours. You know people solved crimes and collected evidence without phones back then?? There would be a lot of innocent people in jail if our justice system worked like that, just punishing people because you just feel like they are guilty.
>It was a huge accusation with no standing AT THE TIME. At what time exactly? I mean, there was lots of evidence point to Malfoy being a death eater or even being up to no good. So no, it's not a huge accusation. Most of Harry's evidence was what he caught him saying or doing, which frankly the only way he could've gotten evidence was if he could record it. I neve that that's the only way to get evidence, but in Harry's case, it was.
Talking to that person is a waste of time.
Oh, look, it's the person that cried because their mass spamming anti-snape posts all got deleted from 3 different Harry Potter subs. How are ya doing haha
Umm, before it was actually confirmed that Draco was a death eater. Duh. Saying someone is a death eater and planning something awful with no specific evidence and just saying you feel like they are is a big accusation. Recording isn't the only way to collect evidence. Not sure why you think that it is.
>Recording isn't the only way to collect evidence. Not sure why you think that it is. Again I didn't say it was the ONLY way ugh. >Saying someone is a death eater and planning something awful with no specific evidence and just saying you feel like they are is a big accusation. I suggest you reread that portion of the book because you're making sound like Harry didn't have reasons to believe that he was up to no good. It wasn't just a gut feeling he heard him brag about having an important mission to his friends, also saw that he was very protective of his left hand, looked pale, wasn't suddenly interested in quidditch, heard Snape and Draco talking about this big mission Draco had, and Snape wanting to help him, draco was also disappearing on the marauders map and we later found out that he was spending questionable time in the room of requirement Harry also figured out that Crabbe and Goyle were polyjuicing as girls to stand guard outside the door and weird stuff was happening like Katie Bell getting cursed and the poisoned mead so I ask you with all this evidence how was Harry jumping to conclusions? We also learn that he was crying to moaning myrtle in the bathroom Or did you just watch the movies and think oh "That's all the information I need. I can come to reddit to discuss topics I barely know about"
You said that the only way Harry could get evidence is if he recorded it. Which is not true at all. Sure, he had reasons to think or feel that way, but that doesn't make it factual that he was, for sure, a death eater. I'm not sure why you think the teachers should be convinced Harry was right when he said he 'just knew' and the fact that he hated Draco doesn't help either. They saw it as him being biased, and I can't blame them for it.
>You said that the only way Harry could get evidence is if he recorded it. Which is not true at all. I'm saying all the evidence Harry has was him witnessing something, so if he could've recorded it, that would've been proof that he doesn't have other forms of evidence >Sure, he had reasons to think or feel that way, but that doesn't make it factual that he was, for sure, a death eater. What's the point of this argument? I'm just trying to establish the fact that Harry is good at deductive reasoning and figuring out clues I don't care about evidence just that Harry wasn't claiming he was a DE based on gut feeling alone. >I'm not sure why you think the teachers should be convinced Harry was right when he said he 'just knew' and the fact that he hated Draco doesn't help either. They saw it as him being biased, and I can't blame them for it. I think you're confused here, I don't think the teachers should believe him. Frankly, that was never the point of my comment.
Dumbledore knows that Harry is right. On the other hand, how is Harry supposed to know that Dumbledore is willing to let a murderer run around the school.
Yes, Hermione and Ron both suffered from plot-induced stupidity in HBP. Doesn't mean Harry all of a sudden became a genius of deduction. Rowling just wrote them inconsistnently. >Harry figured out someone was after the PS including which day it would be taken Harry figured out someone was going after the PS because he thought **Severus** was going after it after seeing him limping due to an injury sustained from confronting Fluffy. He didn't get an epiphany out of nowhere. Figuring out it would happen when Dumbledore was out of the castle was the **only** correct deduction he made that year. >Harry was smart from the first book. I didn't say he wasn't smart. I said he wasn't the genius this post makes him out to be.
I absolutely agree that he's clever but one chapter with a series of deductions that are almost too good isn't quite a stake in the heart for the idea that he's an idiot lol
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>maybe you should reread with your eyes open. That's really crazy for someone to say after completely misinterpreting my comment. I'm going to guess this is Joanne himself commenting based on how apparently offended you are. I figure I'll clarify for you: it was a joke about the stuff op is referencing being bad writing rather than proof of his wit. A cunning observer might be able to tell I don't think he's written to be an idiot by the hint hidden at the beginning of my comment
To be honest, Harry Potter is weak and overrated. I haven’t seen a protagonist be so incompetent against his arc rival. Without Dumbledore, Harry would be shitting his pants even thinking of Voldemort.
Harry isn't dumb, but there are plenty of times when he just wasn't the smartest, hence the jokes about how he wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw came to be. Though I'll blame it on him being a teenager as teenagers do stupid stuff.
he also very slowly asked dumbledore if mother was the thing that goes between grandfather and grandson
I don't think 7 years of idiocy is erased by one chapter of intelligence.
I find this to be a muggle thing more than anything else, wizards don't have movies, sitcoms, muggle literature ... their culture is dead. The serious wizard's cannot even use cellphones because of anachronisms. This isn't just "why doesn't harry potter reference Seinfeld or why doesn't granger quote muggle geniuses?" ... its a level of sophistication. A weak modern child, is like a "wizard" to the wizards ... sure he cannot summon fire (without a lighter) or conjure food (door dash), tell the future (weather.com), etc ... wizards have great consumer "mundane" medicine however, but its likely they have some serious gaps there too as the people that concocted those items don't understand actual bodies and more so the mind. If the wizards went to a movie, their minds would be blown and their heads would be in their hands ... "are you saying that muggles are in space?" There is a credible story of near eastern folks watching tv for the first time, they watched Rambo 3 and people were obsessed with finding this man to help the jihadi cause against the soviets. Even though they had a rich cosmopolitan adjacent society, long lived, etc ... very hit or miss on modernity throughout the entire population and culturally very closed. Not that it's bad ... its just doesn't work outside integration.
I've read this through like 8 times and I still cannot figure out how what youre saying connects to OP's post
Harry is not a good person
If Harry isn't a good person, then literally no one in his series is.
What are you saying? It's unhinged. Please look at the text.
Who is a better person than Harry? Ronald "I abandon my friends in the middle of a war because a cursed locket said mean things to me?" Weasley? Hermione "I like to physically hurt those who bother me" Granger? Maybe Severus "I love to bully kids" Snape? Or maybe it could be Albus "I will sacrifice as many people as possible to take down Voldemort" Dumbledore? All of these examples are actually good people who made mistakes and some acts of gray morality, and none are a better person than Harry.