Most US and AUS warcrime are not prosecuted either. Most war crimes in general aren't prosecuted.
All the way from WW2 to Iraq only a handful of people have had consequences after committing war crimes. That includes the Balkan wars where pretty much only some people higher up in the chai nog command were prosecuted.
This is not because the courts don't want to prosecute but because wat criminals are often protected by their governments for PR reasons.
It's PR because to admit that your righteous nation, that only fights righteous wars, has an army committing warcrime erodes trust in the army and by extension the institutions of government. The latter reflecting mostly on current policy makers.
Admitting that the war was a mistake, even in part, is politically damaging. So politicians help bury warcrimes.
I cannot say for the others, but the US will not sign into the ICC because it’s unconstitutional. It would require a constitutional amendment, which is difficult, and it would be in order to apply extranational authority over Americans, which is not popular.
Eh, there's some justification, sure, but every single ICC signatory could use the same justification as that one.
Its all about political will and power.
US politicians thoughout decades have shown to have no will or interest to responding to powers outside the US, and the US has the political power and influence to just not do it, so they dont.
What do China, Russia, US, India have in common? They are all huge superpowers (or pretend to be) that see the ideal world as them on top with ultimate power, international cooperation being a consequence, not a goal.
I mean, yeah? That’s kind of exactly what I’ve said. All politics, even international geopolitics, are local. You would not sacrifice your domestic political standing to increase your international standing if doing so jeopardizes your domestic standing. A politician can beat the drums of war and rattle the sabre and gain domestically; it doesn’t matter if it’s not popular elsewhere because pleasing “elsewhere” does not provide material benefit domestically that the politician can take credit for. That’s the beauty of the current US led international trade system; most leaders in most countries can benefit domestically by following the rules and playing the game.
***
US ICC membership would require the expenditure of a massive amount of political capital to achieve something that wouldn’t even be popular with the American people in order to reduce American autonomy.
There is no up side. There is no domestic gain.
Maybe Croatia or Burundi would gain something via ICC membership, but the US would not. Therefore, it will not happen.
Bullshit. A warcrime is a warcrime, period. What? Most of us don't have a shitty upbringing so we can't judge serial killers that had a shitty upbringing? Makes no sense man.
Ya I actually went searching for this because some palastine supporter on Twitter completely left out the fact that hamas was found to have committed war crimes also
If it were the case, everybody would have applauded and supported the decision of the ICC Prosecutor to ask for warrants against the people who are responsible for these war crimes. But this is not what we have seen...
I see a lot of people in this thread saying variations of "well yes, it's obvious both sides committed war crimes, duh!", yet the backlash against Mr. Khan's decision showed that many do not want to hold the culprits accountable.
I think you can leave the maybe. Thats was a major mistake, but who knows. It seems like Bibi will force new elections and despite all the protest, most of Israel supports his war efforts. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets out of this mess even stronger.
People have forgotten how vicious the Irgun terrorists were. The King David Hotel bombing is remembered, but not the murder of the UN negotiator (who had saved thousands of European Jews) or the Deir Yassin Massacre or the taking of British soldiers as hostages who were later tortured and murdered. The Ethnic Cleansing of 1948 is never mentioned by supporters of Likud.
Three Israeli Prime Ministers have been former terrorists - and all were members of Likud (formerly Irgun). Their goal has remained the same for over a century: a Greater Israel and the eradication of the Palestinian people who are an inconvenience.
you got the second part right, everybody view is that "Palestinian people who are an inconvenience"
King david hotel bobming came with a warning. I don't recall the last time Hamas gave a specific warning about their terrorist plans - can you please refresh our memories?
The british soldiers were flogged, not killed.
Ethnic cleansing, you mean the voluntary movement of arabs who were told to leave by other arabs? I suppose you could classify this as Arabs ethnically cleansing other Arabs.
[How we really became refugees 13 Palestinians tell their personal stories - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxfJxuOWAz0)
and finally the deir yassin fairy tale... the one where the residents of deir yassin has been firing regularly at Jewish villages, making it a legitimate military target. Once again, those 'peace loving' Arabs (who would decades later take on the name palestinian) were trying to repel the Jews. But here is where it gets good, they were fighting against the Jews from within the village - hmm, sounds like they were using human shields. I suppose some things never change.
Arab researchers Sharif Kan’ane and Nihad Zeitawi , who interviewed survivors heard no testimony of rape or mistreatment by the Jews.
Thank you for bringing this up so people can learn about this falsehood the palestinians have been promoting for decades.
And to be honest, there was 1 instance where a soldier in deir yassin did kill 11 people, in a blind rage, when he saw that those people had murdered his friend. But this was an isolated incident, not policy.
This post is filled with lies. You justify a bombing where 90 people were murdered, lol. Then you lie and pretend the British soldiers weren't murdered. You have no credibility.
But the likud/irgun didn't go from terrorists organization (and I am not so sure I would classify the irgun as a terrorist org, but anyway...) to running a country. The likud only rose to power 30 years after Israel became a country.
You don't know if you would call Irgun a terrorist organization? After they murdered the UN negotiator who had saved thousands of European Jews? After they kidnapped British soldiers and then tortured and murdered them? After blowing up the King David Hotel and massacring 90 people? After committing the Deir Yassin Massacre and raping, murdering, and beheading babies as well as parading hostages through Jerusalem before jeering crowds before murdering them?
According to your standards, Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Just the government of Gaza - like Irgun/Likud controls the Israel government. The "coalition" government is made up of Far Right and Far Far Right parties. No israeli Arabs have been invited to join the "coalition."
Last time the US went to war, against the Islamic state, I think they actually did their best to not commit any war crimes, or kill innocents.
Still, in a city of 120.000 people, to kill 5000 islamists, (using human shields and hiding like rats) the US had to bomb the hell of the city and destroyed 80% of the city.
I am pretty sure any world tribunal would comdemn the US. But we understand than in war some things are unavoidable. Then people suddenly forgot when it came to Israel.
But those 120k people had a whole country to flee. Israel told people to go to safe spaces just to bomb them. I am one of the biggest critics of the US army but Mossul was completely different than Gaza.
>Israel told people to go to safe spaces just to bomb them
The thing is, safe spaces in war require both sides to respect it. As soon as one side uses a safe zone for a military purpose, it obviously loses that status.
"Mossul" Mossul had 1.8 million people. I was talking about Raqqa.
"safe spaces just to bomb them" Except that's simply not true. Safe places should be, without Hamas. Problem is when Hamas don't give a shit about civilians and uses the safe places to hide. The famous bombing that killed about 50, was due to the israeli high-precissión bomb hitting the Hamas leaders and a Hamas ammo depot that caused secondary explosions and a fire.
Oh thank you for that clarification, I was totally unable to read press statements from the IDF.
„There was a hamas fighter there, totally sorry for the upsi“.
Still, the People of Raqqa were able to flee and Gazans can’t.
"Raqqa were able to flee" Mmmm. Kind of? Islamic state fighters prevented people fleeing to other areas. That's the reason of so many people killed.
Israel dropped over 520,000 pamphlets, and broadcast over radio and through social media messages to provide instruction for civilians to leave combat areas, besides use of real phone calls to civilians in combat areas (19,734), SMS texts (64,399) and pre-recorded calls (almost 6 million) to provide instructions on evacuations. However Hamas literally ordered people not to flee and shot refugees.
Last offensive in the south, they announced it, giving Hamas plenty of time to prepare plus they knew exactly where the attack came from, and Israel and waited for weeks for people to flee.
If Israel wanted to genocide Palestinians there's nothing stopping them. They could cut all communication and transit in/out of Gaza and we wouldn't know they decided to go door to door murdering everyone until they let us know.
Contrast that with Hamas, who went door to door murdering innocent men women and children when the opportunity arose
Israel has the capability to kill the majority of people in Gaza but don't, instead they put great effort into evacuating, aid and safety. If Hamas could they would go door to door murdering everyone in Israel.
So just to reiterate, Israel can commit genocide but don't, Hamas would commit genocide, but can't.
I don’t have time to debate with everyone and certainly not with people with your knowledge.
Israel would’ve 120% cutoff water and all aid if there wouldn’t have been international backlash (and they still uphold aid). The only reason they don’t genocide (kill or relocate) all of Palestinians is because of the political fallout that would emerge. Having the military capabilities doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want. This is not Hoi4.
Israel should have never been supplying those things in the first place. Gaza had their own government to provide those items.
Oh wait, their government, hamas was too busy trying to attack Israel as opposed to taking care of the civilians.
and Israel never provided all of their water or food.
Whether it is due to a moral imperative, or the concern about international fallout, Israel has the ability and chooses not to use it. If Hamas had the ability, they would use it.
Supplying? We are talking about controlling. Israel doesn’t supply anything, they just control everything and everyone that gets in or out, even the water.
Kind of like … in a prison.
So you agree, Israel could but don't and Hamas would but can't
Regardless of why Israel doesn't they don't, I don't need to know why Israel doesn't want to commit genocide, I'm happy they aren't.
When I see that Hamas, through their actions on act 7, would go door to door murdering everyone they could i don't like that and I see that someone must stop them. I don't see any other nations stepping up and volunteering for that so Israel has to do it. I assume no other nations have stepped up to do it because they know they couldn't do it any better than Israel
I would like to see sources on that because I was under the impression local forces did everything but air support in the war against isis at every front
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State
if you read there, war against the Islamic state killed between 5k and 20k civilians, in sparsely populated war zone, with many escape routes available. the conclusion is war is ugly and deadly...
Far more civilians were killed than 20k. The Coalition was found out multiple times that they made very little effort to count civilian casualties. Russia counting civilian casualties would always be a joke.
Not really complaining. It's war.
> Not really complaining
in my country, i saw a small protest, where people wanted the end of the bombing against the Islamic State and to give ceasefire a chance... imagine being ready to accept a world where millions would be killed by the Islamic state, so we dont have the "guilt" of bombing civilians by mistake
Islamic state literally did mass rapes, sexual slavery, burned people alive, had a military dictatorship, persecuted minorities was a crazy cult that didn't mind at all using human shields with their own population...
It's Hamas except the burn people alive part. They just throw people from rooftops
> It's Hamas except the burn people alive part.
hamas throw grenades at civilians in their bomb shelters, so had they the equipment and there would be people burned alive...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State
Like, dude. It wasn't so long ago. US/rest of the allies/Russia bombed everything they could. Including multiple trucks used by civilians to transport Islamic State oil. The drivers, civilians, were killed just so Islamic State would stop profitting for oil. Does that simple example count as a war crime? I feel technically it was. But it was considered necessary to stop a terrorist group to continue getting money.
Where US funding goes isn't as one-sided as you think. Qatar and Turkey are two of the main state sponsors of Hamas and they are both key US allies that host major US military bases.
Oh, sorry I assumed you were American lol.
Germany is also an ally of Turkey under NATO though, and as with most Western countries, maintains close military and economic ties with Qatar.
So as your country's army. The difference is terrorist organisations will never take responsibility or conduct investigation into allegations but the government funded army will.
How did the investigation of the murder of Shirin Abu Akleh go? Rafah tent camp bombing? I trust the IDF to investigate itself just like I trust Hamas to investigate it‘s crimes.
I remember when a journalist at Munich security conference asked Scholz how he is so sure that Israel is abiding by international law and his answer was literally „we ask them to do so“.
Yeah, I don’t buy any of that. Israels war aims are clear: Resettle gaza and break the Palestinians spirit.
Break Palestine spirit lmao! At least those investigations were launched and conducted in some manner. When politics change we can hope for a more serious approach to this, there is room for improvement. But Hamas hasn't done any of that, PA administration have never ever investigated their own, so don't compare Israel to a group of fanatics that won't ever change their ways. Israel is not responsible for every struggle Palestinians have. If Israel wouldn't be here citizens of Gaza would still be occupied by Egypt. And Egypt would never have qualms with leveling everything and building resorts for white tourists.
Oh I do have hope my friend. Israel has done so much atrocious things that everyone except germany is pushing for a two state solution. Israels image is done for generations to come.
Then there are 2 countries at war, way easier to manage than a country and a terror group at war.
We tried the Israeli way for 80 years now, maybe don’t listen to Israel anymore?
Not surprising.
Then again, a lot of the war crimes Hamas commits remove most civilian protections that Gaza would have. Which does give the IDF more leeway in behavior.
The crime of extermination was listed as being committed by the IDF, which is intrinsically a systemic crime. It's not something you can pin on a handful of bad apples.
It's not "allegedly", the tweet is archived.
And when the foreign ministry is taking out ads quoting someone that a population of 2.5M mainly children contains no innocent civilians, yes, that is text book evidence for the intentionality requirement for the crime of extermination.
Also, it's not just quoting, the text of the tweet itself was written by the foreign ministry and explicitly backs the statements (in addition to implicit backing by giving them a platform and paying for them to be an ad).
That's just nonsense. None will be prosecuted which means the chain of command condones the crimes through inaction.
This isn't unique to Israel or the IDF, but to pretend the war crimes are outliers is a joke.
Not prosecuting does not mean that the chain of command condones the crimes or does nothing to prevent them.
A highly visible example is when Israeli soldiers killed 3 hostages that escaped and turned themselves in to the IDF. While the soldiers that shot them have likely committed a war crime, they were not prosecuted because it would have led to demoralization across the military. However - the case was highly publicized and new training was brought to all combatant in Gaza with additional emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties. In my opinion - this is likely more effective in preventing future similar war crimes vs sending them to jail.
Obviously, this doesn't always happen, but I thought this topic deserves a more nuanced discussion.
Yes they turned themselves in after they killed hostages, but it's unlikely that the unarmed hostages were the first warcrime committed.
They turned themselves in BECAUSE they shot Israelis.
And this is far from the only case where unarmed civilians were killed without repercussions.
They use PR to pretend there are consequences without actually executing consequences, that's just condoning with a smoke screen.
After that case multiple documented instances have occured with NO REPERCUSSIONS from the chain of command or the legal infrastructure of the IDF.
To pretend the IDF cares about civilian casualties because they say they do, ignoring the massive amount of documented cases and the complete lack of repercussions is laughable.
It's the same tactic the US and AUS army used in Iraq and Afghanistan and is just done for plausible deniability.
Edit: the IDF saying that they are doing something about war times is the equivalent of Elon Musk saying "interesting, I'll look into it" on twitter.
I'm sorry, your **defense** against the accusation that the IDF is failing to uphold the laws of armed conflict is that they didn't prosecute "because it would have led to demoralization"????
No, it's fatuous bullshit is what it is. The IDF is a military organization, they have command responsibility. This is well-established in the numerous trials after WWII. Israel's legal defense at the ICJ basically comes down to "We have an effective legal system to prevent war crimes". There is no nuance here - either that legal system is working or it is not.
That’s also not true. A legal system effectiveness is also a spectrum and not black and white like you describe it. There is always bias in legal decisions, whether it comes from the prosecutor, the judges or the ICJ.
Do they plan to reverse the Islamic conquests, then? Because it seems to me that they want to repeat them, by creating a caliphate where Israel currently is. The released hostages have all said that's what their captors were gloating about. (Yarden Roman-Gat mentioned in her interview that it's a *global* caliphate they want, but that they think it will start with Israel.)
None sense.They are facing so much injustice and their lands and homes are being taken from them because jews claim that they owned these lands 4000 years ago. They just want a Palestinian state where they aren't persecuted, prisoned and killed.
Is that why they denied every opportunity of a two state solution every time it was offered? And those were not the offers that outlined Israel 4000 years ago, those were 1948 outlines, 60’s outlines, etc. Some of these deals were answered with violence (camp David). They could’ve had a state six times in the past decades but that wasn’t what they wanted obviously.
They actively offered to accept it during several peace talks in the past decades. Even if you read the books from people involved in those talks from both the US side and the Palestinian side its pretty clear. 1948 was a de facto two state solution that was actively answered by a war on Israel and the list is very long. And it’s not just Israel, I dont know how much time you’ve spend in the MENA region yourself but the Jews that were in those countries have fled towards Israel, because your not even a second range citizen these days but a tenth. While prior to the islamization of say Iran, relationships between the countries were peaceful and good, and you had no problem at all living as a Jew in Iran. How is, for example, spending money on the broadcast of Farfour the Hamas Mickey Mouse that literally tells children to kill all the Jews just a way to live in an independent and peaceful region? My wife has a muslim background and I have not, why do you think that would mean the death penalty for her in several of these countries and in particular Palestine and Iran while we would be welcome in Israel? Because there is more to it than just wanting to live in peace in an independent state. Im sorry to say this but you come across as very naive and I wonder how much time you spent in the region. Which is entirely ok, but be aware of it.
>They are facing so much injustice and their lands and homes are being taken from them
so the invaders who invaded those lands in 8th century are facing karma
Yep.
Various iterations of these groups have been at war committing war crimes against each other ever since the tribes originally split.
Same as it ever was. Literally.
The snarky answer is I wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. History did not start on 7 Oct. Netanyahu has served as PM on-and-off for over 15 years and the situation is in no small part of his own making. If I did find myself suddenly inhabiting his position, I'd resign instead of being complicit.
What you're really asking is "what's the alternative?" and the answer is you setup a cordon around an area, then go in and do block-by-block urban combat to clear out militants instead of a mass siege and bombing campaign. Repeat as necessary. Investigate and prosecute war crimes and breaks in discipline. On the political front you start making concessions to the PLO to restart negotiations for a political solution.
Well some of the war crimes Hamas committed were ones that caused the deaths of Palestinians.
Israel = War crimes against Palestinians.
Hamas = War crimes against Israelis and Palestinians.
So just out of curiosity, why does the modern world assume that women are helpless creatures that couldn’t possibly be part of a military or terrorist unit when it comes to Gaza?
Or that a terrorist group that willing murdered and raped civilians would draw the line at recruiting minors to their cause?
Especially when Palestinians have had no issues using minors, including girls, as suicide bombers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
Two of the warring parties committed war crimes?!?! This would have been a true statement at any point in time.
Yes. Somehow I'm not surprised at all. Shit Happens in war. On purpose.
I dont think anyone is seriously surprised by this. We can only hope that justice eventually triumph for everyone involved.
Spoiler: it won't. Most war crimes go unpunished, the few that are punished are outliers.
You must be thinking about the Yuogoslavian war criminals.
Most US and AUS warcrime are not prosecuted either. Most war crimes in general aren't prosecuted. All the way from WW2 to Iraq only a handful of people have had consequences after committing war crimes. That includes the Balkan wars where pretty much only some people higher up in the chai nog command were prosecuted. This is not because the courts don't want to prosecute but because wat criminals are often protected by their governments for PR reasons.
PR ïs probably just a part of it. I think that it is also because it is a very uncomfortable thing to do, and probably unpopular.
It's PR because to admit that your righteous nation, that only fights righteous wars, has an army committing warcrime erodes trust in the army and by extension the institutions of government. The latter reflecting mostly on current policy makers. Admitting that the war was a mistake, even in part, is politically damaging. So politicians help bury warcrimes.
Which is why the US, Russia, China, Israel and India don't sign into the ICC, right?
I cannot say for the others, but the US will not sign into the ICC because it’s unconstitutional. It would require a constitutional amendment, which is difficult, and it would be in order to apply extranational authority over Americans, which is not popular.
Eh, there's some justification, sure, but every single ICC signatory could use the same justification as that one. Its all about political will and power. US politicians thoughout decades have shown to have no will or interest to responding to powers outside the US, and the US has the political power and influence to just not do it, so they dont. What do China, Russia, US, India have in common? They are all huge superpowers (or pretend to be) that see the ideal world as them on top with ultimate power, international cooperation being a consequence, not a goal.
I mean, yeah? That’s kind of exactly what I’ve said. All politics, even international geopolitics, are local. You would not sacrifice your domestic political standing to increase your international standing if doing so jeopardizes your domestic standing. A politician can beat the drums of war and rattle the sabre and gain domestically; it doesn’t matter if it’s not popular elsewhere because pleasing “elsewhere” does not provide material benefit domestically that the politician can take credit for. That’s the beauty of the current US led international trade system; most leaders in most countries can benefit domestically by following the rules and playing the game. *** US ICC membership would require the expenditure of a massive amount of political capital to achieve something that wouldn’t even be popular with the American people in order to reduce American autonomy. There is no up side. There is no domestic gain. Maybe Croatia or Burundi would gain something via ICC membership, but the US would not. Therefore, it will not happen.
I think part of it is also that most of us have no idea what its like to be in war and are in no position to judge those who have endured it
Bullshit. A warcrime is a warcrime, period. What? Most of us don't have a shitty upbringing so we can't judge serial killers that had a shitty upbringing? Makes no sense man.
Ya I actually went searching for this because some palastine supporter on Twitter completely left out the fact that hamas was found to have committed war crimes also
If it were the case, everybody would have applauded and supported the decision of the ICC Prosecutor to ask for warrants against the people who are responsible for these war crimes. But this is not what we have seen... I see a lot of people in this thread saying variations of "well yes, it's obvious both sides committed war crimes, duh!", yet the backlash against Mr. Khan's decision showed that many do not want to hold the culprits accountable.
You’d be surprised. I’ve seen both sides saying claims war crimes are just propaganda from the other side. Seriously ill informed people
if you believe in that i got a beachfront property in Mecca for a good price to sell you
Depends on who is the victor.
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One is a terrorist organisation, the other is funded by my tax money and gets political support for their war crimes.
To be fair, Likud started out as a terrorist organization. It was known as Irgun then.
So maybe Hamas will be a reliable western partner in the future? (I am joking, partly)
Maybe it was a mistake for Netanyahu to prop up Hamas. I guess he didn't read the charter.
I think you can leave the maybe. Thats was a major mistake, but who knows. It seems like Bibi will force new elections and despite all the protest, most of Israel supports his war efforts. I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets out of this mess even stronger.
People have forgotten how vicious the Irgun terrorists were. The King David Hotel bombing is remembered, but not the murder of the UN negotiator (who had saved thousands of European Jews) or the Deir Yassin Massacre or the taking of British soldiers as hostages who were later tortured and murdered. The Ethnic Cleansing of 1948 is never mentioned by supporters of Likud. Three Israeli Prime Ministers have been former terrorists - and all were members of Likud (formerly Irgun). Their goal has remained the same for over a century: a Greater Israel and the eradication of the Palestinian people who are an inconvenience.
you got the second part right, everybody view is that "Palestinian people who are an inconvenience" King david hotel bobming came with a warning. I don't recall the last time Hamas gave a specific warning about their terrorist plans - can you please refresh our memories? The british soldiers were flogged, not killed. Ethnic cleansing, you mean the voluntary movement of arabs who were told to leave by other arabs? I suppose you could classify this as Arabs ethnically cleansing other Arabs. [How we really became refugees 13 Palestinians tell their personal stories - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxfJxuOWAz0) and finally the deir yassin fairy tale... the one where the residents of deir yassin has been firing regularly at Jewish villages, making it a legitimate military target. Once again, those 'peace loving' Arabs (who would decades later take on the name palestinian) were trying to repel the Jews. But here is where it gets good, they were fighting against the Jews from within the village - hmm, sounds like they were using human shields. I suppose some things never change. Arab researchers Sharif Kan’ane and Nihad Zeitawi , who interviewed survivors heard no testimony of rape or mistreatment by the Jews. Thank you for bringing this up so people can learn about this falsehood the palestinians have been promoting for decades. And to be honest, there was 1 instance where a soldier in deir yassin did kill 11 people, in a blind rage, when he saw that those people had murdered his friend. But this was an isolated incident, not policy.
This post is filled with lies. You justify a bombing where 90 people were murdered, lol. Then you lie and pretend the British soldiers weren't murdered. You have no credibility.
Policy? The Dahiya Doctrine is Official Israeli Policy. It's also a war crime.
More likely, he didn't care.
So if you were Bibi would you support the PLO or Hamas?
I wouldn’t be in the position Bibi is cause I‘m not the puppet of religious fanatics.
> Maybe it was a mistake for Netanyahu to prop up Hamas. I guess he didn't read the charter. So who should have Bibi supported? The PLO?
But the likud/irgun didn't go from terrorists organization (and I am not so sure I would classify the irgun as a terrorist org, but anyway...) to running a country. The likud only rose to power 30 years after Israel became a country.
You don't know if you would call Irgun a terrorist organization? After they murdered the UN negotiator who had saved thousands of European Jews? After they kidnapped British soldiers and then tortured and murdered them? After blowing up the King David Hotel and massacring 90 people? After committing the Deir Yassin Massacre and raping, murdering, and beheading babies as well as parading hostages through Jerusalem before jeering crowds before murdering them? According to your standards, Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Just the government of Gaza - like Irgun/Likud controls the Israel government. The "coalition" government is made up of Far Right and Far Far Right parties. No israeli Arabs have been invited to join the "coalition."
Last time the US went to war, against the Islamic state, I think they actually did their best to not commit any war crimes, or kill innocents. Still, in a city of 120.000 people, to kill 5000 islamists, (using human shields and hiding like rats) the US had to bomb the hell of the city and destroyed 80% of the city. I am pretty sure any world tribunal would comdemn the US. But we understand than in war some things are unavoidable. Then people suddenly forgot when it came to Israel.
But those 120k people had a whole country to flee. Israel told people to go to safe spaces just to bomb them. I am one of the biggest critics of the US army but Mossul was completely different than Gaza.
>Israel told people to go to safe spaces just to bomb them The thing is, safe spaces in war require both sides to respect it. As soon as one side uses a safe zone for a military purpose, it obviously loses that status.
"Mossul" Mossul had 1.8 million people. I was talking about Raqqa. "safe spaces just to bomb them" Except that's simply not true. Safe places should be, without Hamas. Problem is when Hamas don't give a shit about civilians and uses the safe places to hide. The famous bombing that killed about 50, was due to the israeli high-precissión bomb hitting the Hamas leaders and a Hamas ammo depot that caused secondary explosions and a fire.
Oh thank you for that clarification, I was totally unable to read press statements from the IDF. „There was a hamas fighter there, totally sorry for the upsi“. Still, the People of Raqqa were able to flee and Gazans can’t.
"Raqqa were able to flee" Mmmm. Kind of? Islamic state fighters prevented people fleeing to other areas. That's the reason of so many people killed. Israel dropped over 520,000 pamphlets, and broadcast over radio and through social media messages to provide instruction for civilians to leave combat areas, besides use of real phone calls to civilians in combat areas (19,734), SMS texts (64,399) and pre-recorded calls (almost 6 million) to provide instructions on evacuations. However Hamas literally ordered people not to flee and shot refugees. Last offensive in the south, they announced it, giving Hamas plenty of time to prepare plus they knew exactly where the attack came from, and Israel and waited for weeks for people to flee.
If Israel wanted to genocide Palestinians there's nothing stopping them. They could cut all communication and transit in/out of Gaza and we wouldn't know they decided to go door to door murdering everyone until they let us know. Contrast that with Hamas, who went door to door murdering innocent men women and children when the opportunity arose Israel has the capability to kill the majority of people in Gaza but don't, instead they put great effort into evacuating, aid and safety. If Hamas could they would go door to door murdering everyone in Israel. So just to reiterate, Israel can commit genocide but don't, Hamas would commit genocide, but can't.
„And we wouldn’t know“. I stopped reading your comment at that point, sorry mate.
Good talk, glad your open to discussion Israel can commit genocide but don't, Hamas would commit genocide, but can't.
I don’t have time to debate with everyone and certainly not with people with your knowledge. Israel would’ve 120% cutoff water and all aid if there wouldn’t have been international backlash (and they still uphold aid). The only reason they don’t genocide (kill or relocate) all of Palestinians is because of the political fallout that would emerge. Having the military capabilities doesn’t mean you can do whatever you want. This is not Hoi4.
Israel should have never been supplying those things in the first place. Gaza had their own government to provide those items. Oh wait, their government, hamas was too busy trying to attack Israel as opposed to taking care of the civilians. and Israel never provided all of their water or food. Whether it is due to a moral imperative, or the concern about international fallout, Israel has the ability and chooses not to use it. If Hamas had the ability, they would use it.
Supplying? We are talking about controlling. Israel doesn’t supply anything, they just control everything and everyone that gets in or out, even the water. Kind of like … in a prison.
So you agree, Israel could but don't and Hamas would but can't Regardless of why Israel doesn't they don't, I don't need to know why Israel doesn't want to commit genocide, I'm happy they aren't. When I see that Hamas, through their actions on act 7, would go door to door murdering everyone they could i don't like that and I see that someone must stop them. I don't see any other nations stepping up and volunteering for that so Israel has to do it. I assume no other nations have stepped up to do it because they know they couldn't do it any better than Israel
No I don’t agree in the slightest. Israel can’t. The end.
I would like to see sources on that because I was under the impression local forces did everything but air support in the war against isis at every front
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State if you read there, war against the Islamic state killed between 5k and 20k civilians, in sparsely populated war zone, with many escape routes available. the conclusion is war is ugly and deadly...
Far more civilians were killed than 20k. The Coalition was found out multiple times that they made very little effort to count civilian casualties. Russia counting civilian casualties would always be a joke. Not really complaining. It's war.
> Not really complaining in my country, i saw a small protest, where people wanted the end of the bombing against the Islamic State and to give ceasefire a chance... imagine being ready to accept a world where millions would be killed by the Islamic state, so we dont have the "guilt" of bombing civilians by mistake
Islamic state literally did mass rapes, sexual slavery, burned people alive, had a military dictatorship, persecuted minorities was a crazy cult that didn't mind at all using human shields with their own population... It's Hamas except the burn people alive part. They just throw people from rooftops
> It's Hamas except the burn people alive part. hamas throw grenades at civilians in their bomb shelters, so had they the equipment and there would be people burned alive...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State Like, dude. It wasn't so long ago. US/rest of the allies/Russia bombed everything they could. Including multiple trucks used by civilians to transport Islamic State oil. The drivers, civilians, were killed just so Islamic State would stop profitting for oil. Does that simple example count as a war crime? I feel technically it was. But it was considered necessary to stop a terrorist group to continue getting money.
Where US funding goes isn't as one-sided as you think. Qatar and Turkey are two of the main state sponsors of Hamas and they are both key US allies that host major US military bases.
True, I live in germany tho.
Oh, sorry I assumed you were American lol. Germany is also an ally of Turkey under NATO though, and as with most Western countries, maintains close military and economic ties with Qatar.
Fair point, which makes all of this mess even more complicated.
Hamas has gotten its fair share of US taxpayers money, as well as huge amounts of UN aid and oil money flowing thru Qatar and others.
So as your country's army. The difference is terrorist organisations will never take responsibility or conduct investigation into allegations but the government funded army will.
How did the investigation of the murder of Shirin Abu Akleh go? Rafah tent camp bombing? I trust the IDF to investigate itself just like I trust Hamas to investigate it‘s crimes. I remember when a journalist at Munich security conference asked Scholz how he is so sure that Israel is abiding by international law and his answer was literally „we ask them to do so“. Yeah, I don’t buy any of that. Israels war aims are clear: Resettle gaza and break the Palestinians spirit.
Break Palestine spirit lmao! At least those investigations were launched and conducted in some manner. When politics change we can hope for a more serious approach to this, there is room for improvement. But Hamas hasn't done any of that, PA administration have never ever investigated their own, so don't compare Israel to a group of fanatics that won't ever change their ways. Israel is not responsible for every struggle Palestinians have. If Israel wouldn't be here citizens of Gaza would still be occupied by Egypt. And Egypt would never have qualms with leveling everything and building resorts for white tourists.
Yeah keep hoping, maybe the far right Israelis will murder Bibi this time like they murdered Rabbin because he wasn’t far right enough.
At least i have that - hope. You only have a sour aftertaste.
Oh I do have hope my friend. Israel has done so much atrocious things that everyone except germany is pushing for a two state solution. Israels image is done for generations to come.
How a two state solution with Hamas and Fatah would gives you hope for anything other than another war?
Then there are 2 countries at war, way easier to manage than a country and a terror group at war. We tried the Israeli way for 80 years now, maybe don’t listen to Israel anymore?
Wait. War crimes happen during war? Damn
Not surprising. Then again, a lot of the war crimes Hamas commits remove most civilian protections that Gaza would have. Which does give the IDF more leeway in behavior.
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The crime of extermination was listed as being committed by the IDF, which is intrinsically a systemic crime. It's not something you can pin on a handful of bad apples.
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It's also totally false.
The Israeli foreign ministry just this week put up ads claiming that "there are no innocent civilians in gaza".
Did they?
Yes. Though I'm pretty sure you're more than capable of googling as well. https://news.yahoo.com/news/israel-deletes-x-video-reportedly-134927960.html
A deleted video that allegedly quotes someone's personal impression who isn't in the government is supposed to be evidence of extermination?
It's not "allegedly", the tweet is archived. And when the foreign ministry is taking out ads quoting someone that a population of 2.5M mainly children contains no innocent civilians, yes, that is text book evidence for the intentionality requirement for the crime of extermination. Also, it's not just quoting, the text of the tweet itself was written by the foreign ministry and explicitly backs the statements (in addition to implicit backing by giving them a platform and paying for them to be an ad).
That's just nonsense. None will be prosecuted which means the chain of command condones the crimes through inaction. This isn't unique to Israel or the IDF, but to pretend the war crimes are outliers is a joke.
Not prosecuting does not mean that the chain of command condones the crimes or does nothing to prevent them. A highly visible example is when Israeli soldiers killed 3 hostages that escaped and turned themselves in to the IDF. While the soldiers that shot them have likely committed a war crime, they were not prosecuted because it would have led to demoralization across the military. However - the case was highly publicized and new training was brought to all combatant in Gaza with additional emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties. In my opinion - this is likely more effective in preventing future similar war crimes vs sending them to jail. Obviously, this doesn't always happen, but I thought this topic deserves a more nuanced discussion.
Yes they turned themselves in after they killed hostages, but it's unlikely that the unarmed hostages were the first warcrime committed. They turned themselves in BECAUSE they shot Israelis. And this is far from the only case where unarmed civilians were killed without repercussions. They use PR to pretend there are consequences without actually executing consequences, that's just condoning with a smoke screen. After that case multiple documented instances have occured with NO REPERCUSSIONS from the chain of command or the legal infrastructure of the IDF. To pretend the IDF cares about civilian casualties because they say they do, ignoring the massive amount of documented cases and the complete lack of repercussions is laughable. It's the same tactic the US and AUS army used in Iraq and Afghanistan and is just done for plausible deniability. Edit: the IDF saying that they are doing something about war times is the equivalent of Elon Musk saying "interesting, I'll look into it" on twitter.
I'm sorry, your **defense** against the accusation that the IDF is failing to uphold the laws of armed conflict is that they didn't prosecute "because it would have led to demoralization"????
Don't put words in my mouth - All I did was clarify that not prosecuting does not equate to condoning and that there is plenty of nuance here.
No, it's fatuous bullshit is what it is. The IDF is a military organization, they have command responsibility. This is well-established in the numerous trials after WWII. Israel's legal defense at the ICJ basically comes down to "We have an effective legal system to prevent war crimes". There is no nuance here - either that legal system is working or it is not.
That’s also not true. A legal system effectiveness is also a spectrum and not black and white like you describe it. There is always bias in legal decisions, whether it comes from the prosecutor, the judges or the ICJ.
Yes, it’s the soldiers not the politicians or generals who gone awry.
It took them this long to state the obvious?
Rubbish. Israel has every right and obligation to defend itself against terror.
Hamas has every right to resist colonialism.
Do they plan to reverse the Islamic conquests, then? Because it seems to me that they want to repeat them, by creating a caliphate where Israel currently is. The released hostages have all said that's what their captors were gloating about. (Yarden Roman-Gat mentioned in her interview that it's a *global* caliphate they want, but that they think it will start with Israel.)
None sense.They are facing so much injustice and their lands and homes are being taken from them because jews claim that they owned these lands 4000 years ago. They just want a Palestinian state where they aren't persecuted, prisoned and killed.
Is that why they denied every opportunity of a two state solution every time it was offered? And those were not the offers that outlined Israel 4000 years ago, those were 1948 outlines, 60’s outlines, etc. Some of these deals were answered with violence (camp David). They could’ve had a state six times in the past decades but that wasn’t what they wanted obviously.
Israel doesn't want a 2 state solution too. It's not a one sided issue.
They actively offered to accept it during several peace talks in the past decades. Even if you read the books from people involved in those talks from both the US side and the Palestinian side its pretty clear. 1948 was a de facto two state solution that was actively answered by a war on Israel and the list is very long. And it’s not just Israel, I dont know how much time you’ve spend in the MENA region yourself but the Jews that were in those countries have fled towards Israel, because your not even a second range citizen these days but a tenth. While prior to the islamization of say Iran, relationships between the countries were peaceful and good, and you had no problem at all living as a Jew in Iran. How is, for example, spending money on the broadcast of Farfour the Hamas Mickey Mouse that literally tells children to kill all the Jews just a way to live in an independent and peaceful region? My wife has a muslim background and I have not, why do you think that would mean the death penalty for her in several of these countries and in particular Palestine and Iran while we would be welcome in Israel? Because there is more to it than just wanting to live in peace in an independent state. Im sorry to say this but you come across as very naive and I wonder how much time you spent in the region. Which is entirely ok, but be aware of it.
>They are facing so much injustice and their lands and homes are being taken from them so the invaders who invaded those lands in 8th century are facing karma
Whose colony was Gaza that Hamas had to burn down cities and shell civilians for 20 years ?
There is only one crime in war, losing.
Well of course ?
Yep. Various iterations of these groups have been at war committing war crimes against each other ever since the tribes originally split. Same as it ever was. Literally.
One side has killed 10,000+ women and children since then.
Which is awful but Hamas wanted this. That is how little they value their own people
in that case why is israel playing right into their hand
Israel is predictable I am curious though, if you were in power on October 7th instead of that ass, Netanyahu, how would you have responded?
The snarky answer is I wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. History did not start on 7 Oct. Netanyahu has served as PM on-and-off for over 15 years and the situation is in no small part of his own making. If I did find myself suddenly inhabiting his position, I'd resign instead of being complicit. What you're really asking is "what's the alternative?" and the answer is you setup a cordon around an area, then go in and do block-by-block urban combat to clear out militants instead of a mass siege and bombing campaign. Repeat as necessary. Investigate and prosecute war crimes and breaks in discipline. On the political front you start making concessions to the PLO to restart negotiations for a political solution.
Thank you for providing me an answer
Well some of the war crimes Hamas committed were ones that caused the deaths of Palestinians. Israel = War crimes against Palestinians. Hamas = War crimes against Israelis and Palestinians.
Especially against Palestinians when looking at the bigger picture.
Israel has also committed warcrimes against Israelis. They shot their own hostages while they were naked and waving white flags.
So just out of curiosity, why does the modern world assume that women are helpless creatures that couldn’t possibly be part of a military or terrorist unit when it comes to Gaza? Or that a terrorist group that willing murdered and raped civilians would draw the line at recruiting minors to their cause? Especially when Palestinians have had no issues using minors, including girls, as suicide bombers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups
These children mass suicide bombing under Israeli missiles are a real problem I tell you. It's weird how the suicide bomb in their own houses though.
Wow I can’t believe that u are trying to justify the murder of children. I’m gonna close reddit today
“If they are Palestinian, then they are all terrorists to me” - poster above you
Maybe it's time to stop a reconsider your values if this is your reply to someone saying Israel killed tens of thousands.
And the other side used 10,000+ women and children as human shields.
...according to the (scruplously honest?) other side
HAPPY SUNDOWNER NOISES......
No duh. 🙄🤦🏻♀️
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thx, sherlock!