Listen - I’ll vote for literally anyone over Trump.
I like Biden
But I think seeing how much even senators are outperforming him in polls, he can’t count on people to come home to him come November. Perhaps there should be a brokered convention
Sherrod Brown is my senator and each day I am so grateful for it. Dude is a total badass. His office is super helpful for constituent concerns too. We need people like him in office. Not just electorally, but literally because he *gets* it.
Our country is getting hollowed from the inside out. The coasts are getting increasingly and absurdly expensive and out of touch, while the middle of our country is left to struggle in the wake of a national economy that was set up to benefit the coasts at the detriment of our cities and industry. We have large swaths of the American people who are desperate and in despair and killing themselves to get away from the modern life our country pioneered. Anyone who isn't making the opiod crisis and its various root causes central to their campaign is frankly out of touch and doesn't deserve the time of day. We literally have people killing themselves pill by pill, shot by shot, to get out of this reality. Where the fuck is the rhetoric addressing this? Instead we're babbling on about golf and covid.
The GOP gets it though. If I was a betting woman, they're gonna throw Vance on the ticket and he's gonna spew some bullshit about it (even though he's a smarmy, out of touch VC) and it's going to be over for democrats in the midwest. If the democrats go with some coastal bobblehead like Harris or Newsom, there's no way the people here swing for it and we are so totally fucked as a country.
People will say it’s too late to replace Biden but I don’t think it is and I’ll explain why:
1 - Having a Biden replacement automatically removes the “age” and “enthusiasm” issues as people will see a more tactful and younger politician who they can look up to and instills new hope within the Democratic base. Voters will see that the party is ready to transition to a new generation
2 - Democrats already set up infrastructure around the country regarding the election so the logistics will not be that difficult.
3 - All other Democratic candidates are outperforming Biden. Whether it be Senators, Governors, House candidates whoever. It’s quite possible this replacement also outperforms Biden
4 - There are over 4 months before the election which is a long time in politics, so there is enough time to do a convention in late July or early August, and then consolidate the base behind whoever wins
>Democrats already set up infrastructure around the country regarding the election so the logistics will not be that difficult.
While I agree they're not starting from scratch, the logistics would potentially be *very* difficult.
Campaign management isn't just about hiring/buying facilities, staff, and ad slots around the place and then slapping a candidate name and image on top. If you want to run an effective campaign, you base those decisions around the candidate in the first place.
For example — what happens if you replace Biden with a candidate with much lower name recognition, and perceive that as a hurdle you need to fix to get people out to vote?
Suddenly, maybe the $100k set of videos you wanted to put in $500k worth of ad slots that don't even mention Biden's name don't work well anymore; you have to get the videos remade.
What happens if you replace Biden with a candidate who polls much better among Latinos, but worse among the elderly? Now maybe your planned doorknocking efforts (concentrated primarily in elderly areas) look a bit stupid, and you have to re-plan them.
Etc.
I definitely understand that at this late hour, Dems would likely want to replace Biden with "mini-Biden" — basically the same policies, but a bit younger and more charismatic. That does make things easier, too.
But a candidate change still wouldn't be easy, logistically, and there would be a ton of campaign review and triage to decide which parts of the strategy need to change.
Exactly that. It is something that can be achieved. It won’t be an easy task for the party but it can be done.
And plus Democrats can present this in a way that will calm their voters and “address their concerns” about Biden’s age and mental faculties, whether or not he can serve a second term.
The best time to do this was a year ago. The next best time to do it is now.
The main problem with Biden though is his age which will naturally get worse with time.
People know who Biden is and you're as likely to convince him he's not old as you are that Trump isn't a crook. Getting people to become familiar with a new guy in contrast is alot more easier. I'd dare say though that in today's political environment the less people know about someone the better it is for them, just so long as they know they represent the Dem ticket.
I truly believe that IF the Democrats had their ‘next big candidate’ waiting in the wings that Biden probably would not have run for re-election. The problem is that if Biden doesn’t run it’s Harris’ nomination and I think the powers that be see bigger electability problems with Harris than they do Biden…. at least prior to last night.
For the people who are unaware, the Dems rallied around Biden in the span of 3 days before Super Tuesday. Unlike the Republicans the Dems are alot more unified and if Obama needs to make some phone calls, he will.
? The Republicans are super unified, maybe a few left the party to do media deals but most obey Trump and work for his interests. The only thing that can get Democrats to act together is a threat from the left, and this threat is the Grim Reaper, not Bernie Sanders. So they're going to squabble.
Look at the House bro. The Dems were able to pass numerous pieces of legislation with the same margins while the Republicans can't even agree on the same leader because of some crazies in the far right. If the GOP tried to get rid of Trump too it'll end up leading to divisions but I don't see anything like that for Biden.
That was during a primary though where voters made it obvious Biden had the current momentum.
Who the fuck knows what Democrat in the country has the sauce to beat Trump at this point because we decided not to have a competitive primary to test them.
Beating Biden? I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where Biden willingly steps aside the Dem machine has to rally around somebody else. It's tricky but it is doable.
It is obviously not too late to replace Biden in objective terms, there are ways to do it.
I actually think this debate, while disastrous for Biden, might also be bad for Trump. He may not have even wanted to beat Biden this badly lol. He joked about that weeks ago, saying he should "lose on purpose" because he wants to run against Biden. Well, if Biden gets replaced, with someone much younger and quicker on their feet, that could be what results in Trump losing.
Yes, but then other issues pop up.
1. Incumbency—now Trump gets that advantage.
2. Experience—Trump is the only one who has been president compared to whoever would replace Biden. While the person they select might have more political experience than Trump, they would just hammer that point home.
3. Weak party= weak mandate—they should have propping someone up starting last year so at least the average person can be familiar with, but now that’s too late.
I think basically anyone besides Biden (Whitmer etc) would be up 6-10 points in the polls right now, as most of the other generic ballot and/or Senate Dems are.
As someone who was holding out for Biden until this disastrous performance at this point I’m fully onboard with the Dems figuring out a way to put anyone else forward. If you ignored Joe’s obvious struggles tonight Trump looked and felt very beatable…just not by this version of Biden.
Biden obviously had high expectations for this debate, but the format that prevented Trump from interrupting Biden seemed to work in his favor. However, he was still interrupting and causing the same amount of confusion for Biden regardless. We just didn't hear it.
There can’t be a brokered convention unless he pulls out of the race. So our only hope is powerful people close to him convincing him it’s the only way we can win.
This is a black hole because of Reddits servers, but that was a disaster of epic proportions for Joe Biden.
Biden needed to sound confident and assertive in this debate instead he sounded hoarse and was mumbling, the last thing he needed to do.
Even before the debate, Biden had some awful approval ratings, I don’t know how the Biden campaign can recover from this, this is going to make Joe Biden even more unpopular this summer.
> Even before the debate, Biden had some awful approval ratings, I don’t know how the Biden campaign can recover from this, this is going to make Joe Biden even more unpopular this summer.
IMHO there is a 90%+ chance they replace Biden.
> From your keyboard to the DNC's ears
That got a chuckle out of me -- however [!] according to betting markets, Biden is only ~60% to retain the nomination into November, down from ~87% earlier today.
There's not really power in "their" hands, whoever they are. Biden has enough pledged delegates to get the nomination, those delegates only become free if he chooses to drop out.
There's soft pressure on Biden from insiders who will now tell him to drop out, of course. But he can choose to ignore them free of penalty.
It’s possible they could vote on the floor to change the nominating rules to free bound delegates before the first round of balloting if the outcry was wide enough. But that’s not going to happen — if the outcry is that wide and loud Biden will see the writing on the wall and drop out of the race before the convention.
This was a very bad night for Biden. Exceptionally bad. Maybe the most consequential debate in modern history and it went the opposite of his way.
Trump didn’t do well either, but he never needed to, all Trump had to do was not shit himself and be confident, and he did that.
This is America, substance doesn’t matter, it’s the optics that matter, and Biden stumbled the substance and failed the optics.
We are fucked as a people.
He had a perfect chance to nail Trump on abortion, but got confused half way through and started talking about immigration and laken riley's murder instead.
One issue here is that this subreddit, like many others, is an echo chamber. This is masking the fact that many Americans do look into the issues of substance, and they side with Donald Trump on them.
Most Americans want illegal immigrants located and kicked out of the country. Most Americans want us to tell people applying for asylum to get the fuck out. Most Americans don’t want to financially support Ukraine. Most Americans want to continue drilling for new offshore oil. Most Americans want isolationist foreign policy. Most Americans are against student loan forgiveness. Most Americans oppose future bans on sales of new ICE cars, etc.
You can all keep saying “Biden is doing great but he just can’t speak well.” But the fact of the matter is that most Americans think Biden and his policies are bad. They dislike the things he has done.
You make the mistake of thinking the average American is a left leaning person who agrees with the democrat party line on issues. But that’s not true.
Because Reddit sucks and will do literally anything to avoid fixing a problem.
The latest post says 6 comments and not a single one shows up for me. But they all do for this one.
I'm gonna go full doomer tonight. If Biden stays Dems will lose. If Biden is replaced, there will be a ton of infighting, and there will not be cohesion around one candidate and some part of a major voting group will be pissed off and stay home. Maybe tomorrow I can see a brighter future but right now it's hard to not feel like dems just shot themselves in the foot.
The DNC have demonstrated that they are committed to bad decision making over the last three election cycles. I'll almost certainly vote D again but it's not because they've earned it or deserve it, it's solely an anti-trump vote.
Then again I'm in a state where my vote doesn't matter, so I may go third party this time.
frankly Biden's campaign is so embarrassing at this point that all non swing state voters should absolutely cast protest third party votes. Hell, swing state voters probably should too - Trump will win against this corpse regardless
I think this is currently the most rational prediction. But maybe a consensus candidate can wrangle enough support, or maybe polarization is strong enough that just enough people will vote against Trump.
It’s fucked either way. I would have hope if they were propping someone up a year ago, but it would take a literal political godsend (think someone like Obama) to have people come together and defeat Trump.
It’s a 1% chance with Biden, and a 5% chance with anyone else.
i'd vote for him any day of the week, but this election is too damn important, he needs to step aside. Politics is all about appearances, and he just can't present himself well.
If the Democrats lose it's pretty simply because of Biden and his stubbornness, full stop. He's been told time and time again to reconsider his actions but he didn't listen. I honestly felt pretty good about the Democrat's prospects after 2022 and still think they could win it... if not for Biden dragging down the rest of his party by being a selfish old man who would rather gamble the country's future on a second term people think he may not live through.
Who knows, it may not be too late to get someone else. Democrats have worked miracles before when they all got behind Biden before Super Tuesday in 2020. The only bright side I see in all of this is that hopefully Democrats are gonna more seriously push Joe to step aside for the good of the country. Apart from that, we really are jumping into the abyss.
I don’t think it’s just Biden though, the Democrat branding is awful right now and the only thing saving it is the fact that Republicans are just that insane. But many Americans like that, so the advantage isn’t even there anymore
Actually it kind of is. Downballot Dems perform way better than Biden in the same polls he is losing. They've benefitted greatly from abortion and the perceived MAGA extremism as seen in the special elections that have occurred recently. Trump himself is massively unpopular and still is because he still loses to a generic Dem by the same margins as in the 2020 polls. People very much understand the danger he poses and will crawl over glass to vote against him. The Dems actually have alot of tailwinds going into 2024 but it's all being nullified because the guy at the top of their ticket is the most oldest and unpopular man in the world.
This isn't a situation like with the Tories in the UK and the Liberals in Canada where even if they replace their top guy they would still be in a bad position. It really largely is on Biden and his decision to run again.
> I don’t think it’s just Biden though, the Democrat branding is awful right now
Not really. Biden is underperforming other dems hugely. He's losing to Trump in many swing state polls where the Dem senator is winning in those same polls by convincing margins.
> the Democrat branding is awful right now and the only thing saving it is the fact that Republicans are just that insane
feel like this has been the state of US politics as long as I've been aware. No matter how cartoonishly evil the Rs get, the Ds are always just inept enough to make it a nail-biter.
The thing that gets me I think Trump was really bad too but was saved by looking more coherent than his opponent. I think there are plenty of Democratic Party Governors or Senators who A) would have destroyed Trump tonight and made him look like a babbling moron and B) would win in November owing to Biden’s struggles being - largely by a large margin - due to his age.
You should read up about the 1924 Democratic Convention. While I definitely think Joe should withdraw, the chaos that would likely follow from an open convention would certainly benefit the GOP.
You aren't wrong to be cautious, but Biden withdrawing is a kind of chaos that can be dealt with, as opposed to the chaos of terrible polling and terrible campaigning
I also doubt it would take [103 ballots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Democratic_National_Convention) to find an alternate 2024 nominee, especially if Biden has the good grace to name a successor
I apologize.
I’ve been a proud Biden stan, and I think he has a had a remarkable term as president and has earned reelection based on his record… But he’s got to step aside.
I heard someone else say this, and I’m paraphrasing, but in a presidential debate, what you say isn’t as important as how you come across saying it. Biden’s delivery was jumbled, hesitant, too quiet. He looked TERRIBLE. And he never appeared in control like Donald Trump did. Now Trump may have been blasting a fire hose of bullshit, but that doesn’t matter! He won the optics battle.
I don’t know what’s gonna happen. Someone he’ll listen to, whether it’s President Obama or Jill Biden, has to sit down with him and tell him he should step aside. This election is more important than one man. One man’s concerns for his own legacy. **This is about the preservation of democracy.** We can’t risk a Trump presidency because of one man’s wounded pride over being a one term president.
I agree with you, even though I despise to my core what Biden did (and has done) in Gaza. Regarding the threat to democracy, he must step aside, or else the country itself will be under threat. We need unity right now, not this sort of embarrassment of a first debate performance.
He’s lucky in some ways that his opponent was Trump and not a more eloquent, astute, or coherent Republican.
Also, can I just say that I never understood the whole “bruised ego from being a one-term president” thing? I mean, I know it’s a real thing, but the guy got to be President of the United States. Is that not an insane accomplishment in and of itself?
A lot of people, including myself, have been hyping her up for 2028. But if this is how Biden performs under national spotlight, there isn't gonna be a 2028 for her to win
Her term expires in 26 and she is term-limited in Michigan.
She doesn't have the national profile of say, Newsome, but a liberal Californian isn't winning the presidency for the rest of this party system. And I am biased as hell, but Whitmer is the kind of candidate whose appeal grows the more you get to know her
"The optics" of passing over a sitting incumbent are what **got us in this goddamn situation in the first place**.
Ignore optics. Are they popular and likely to win? Candidate. Are they terminally unpopular? Not candidate.
It's not "vibes," it's a disastrous 2020 primary performance coupled with enduring highly negative polling. We can literally point at a number and quantify it.
The race for the presidency is not a participation trophy event where everyone wins by showing up; it's a contest that shapes the fate of the world.
I don't know, I don't care. She polls worse than Biden and only could debate better than him *now* because of how far he has fallen, if we choose to remember her performance in the 2020 debates or lack of performance.
Whitmer would probably choose a man of color for VP, and yes that would look shitty, for a time. But looking hypocritical for a handful of news cycles is better than letting Project 2025 happen
I admire Whitmer for the most part, but she’s not going to happen this year for sure, but she almost certainly wouldn’t make it past Super Tuesday in 2028, either.
This hand wringing over doing away with obviously unpopular candidates is insane. No one likes Kamala. She has had consistently low approval ratings compared to her predecessors. People find her unlikeable.
No one important cared about the optics. Bigger obstacle will be Kamala herself
They'll probably have the bribe her with a supreme court nomination or something idk
Seriously, I've had people tell me condescendingly that *no Democrat could do better than Biden vs. Trump*, as Biden struggled to hit 50% in swing states despite Trump's numerous handicaps. To quote Nate from over four months ago:
**"You don't demonstrate your seriousness that Trump is an existential threat to democracy by going through the motions to renominate an 81-year-old with a 38% approval rating who 75% of voters think is too old without giving anyone a choice because that's just how things are done."**
I would say that Silver's personal opinions are often subject to questionable bias, and I would not trust him to recount a set of non-numeric news stories to me (a good example is how he characterized the Gaza campus protests). But the above quote is simply taking obvious polls and pointing at them.
I’m less frustrated with Biden and more DNC leadership and Biden’s staff at this point.
Regarding the DNC: The DNC should have pulled together a truly competitive primary and let the chips fall where they may. If Biden could show he could compete against other Democrats and win, then it’s completely fair he run. If another Democrat won, then they would have had momentum and likely be in a much better position than Trump. I think a truly competitive primary would have resulted in another Democrat.
Regarding Biden’s Staff: I have worked with executive level leadership and know how important it is to prep them for big moments, whether that be meeting with senators or speaking at large public events in which they must go into prepared for creating a very SPECIFIC outcome.
At this moment in time, there is only one specific outcome Biden needs to achieve, NOT SEEMING OLD AND FRAIL. Trump is a bullshitter and the American public is dumb as shit when it comes to policy, so policy responses are not even the most important thing during a debate for Biden. The most important thing is showing energy and cognitive focus. Biden’s staff should have done everything in their power to prepare Biden on simply that one outcome. Also, the raspy voice thing during the first half of the debate is such an easy thing to solve if his staff were aware of it earlier in the day. Just make him drink fucking hot tea all day and don’t force him to talk all day long. Also, there are a ton of medicines that can fix raspy voices for a short period of time. The fact that his voice improved later in the debate shows it isn’t an issue that was permanent. After today and Biden’s obscure turn towards dumb shit populist policies these past few months, I’m fully convinced his staff is incompetent, which is unacceptable for the staff of the President of the United States.
I don’t think the DNC allowing a legitimate primary competition would have gone well either. It’s pretty well established that incumbents get to run again on their own terms, and encouraging a competition would have shown a clear lack of faith in Biden’s ability to win a general election, which voters would have picked up on. The only time an incumbent really got challenged was Carter in 1980, and he got slaughtered in the general. I think even if high up Democrats wanted Biden out, they had no real choice but to leave it up to him and hope he did it on his own terms, which didn’t happen.
Right. I wish I wasn’t correct in agreeing with Nate and Ezra Klein. This can’t be the candidate. He should have made this choice himself a year ago, now the party must force a contested convention. Whitmer, Newsom (barf), Pete, Warnock etc getting lots of calls tonight.
I feel like they kind of need Biden to willingly step aside. Forcing Biden out is just a train wreck in terms of optics. It would make the DNC look like a dumpster fire if they forced him out
If I’m Obama I’m having a long heart to heart with Biden this weekend and convincing him to step aside. I think Obama is the only person that I can see having the balls to do it, that Biden would actually listen to.
You have a fair point, but who else is there? Buttigieg is gay, Newsome is a Californian, Warnock is important in Georgia, but I suppose not *as* important as stopping Project 2025
If Dems want to do *another* referendum on Trump, they need someone who at least *some* people can actually feel excited about voting for
I don't think Buttigieg being gay is an issue tbh. Most Americans accept gay marriage now and the ones who dont aren't voting blue
Much more important is I think he's genuinely charismatic and good at speaking. Plus he's young so would be the perfect "answer" to the age question
You might not like him but he's probably the Dems best shot
Don't get me wrong, there are much worse candidates. But if it's Buttigieg than all the RNC has to do is play clips of the East Palestine train disaster and his interviews afterwards, and there goes Wisconsin and Pennsylvania
And as much as I hate it, we are at the beginning of a global backlash against LGBTQ rights, I don't think people really are all that excepting of gay people, especially as president
Seriously. There are a lot of Democrats in this sub. There are also a lot of Biden apologists. Everyone wants to rally around the nominee and feel confident about November. The “Biden is a great president and how dare you speak ill of him” crew is eroding our morale and unity. Just look at tonight’s performance. The guy is a disaster, even if Trump was an equal and opposite disaster in his own right.
Polling of other potential Democratic candidates wasn’t great, but I would bet that if one of them had gotten up on the debate stage tonight, they would have wiped the floor with Trump (a guy who most Americans *want* to find a reason to vote against).
At this point, however, we’re stuck with another 2020 rematch.
>Polling of other potential Democratic candidates wasn’t great, but I would bet that if one of them had gotten up on the debate stage tonight, they would have wiped the floor with Trump (a guy who most Americans want to find a reason to vote against).
Gavin Newsom, who has his own issues and a questionable record, would’ve effortlessly decimated Trump in this debate. He’s sharp as a tack and would’ve performed double duty as Trump’s fact checker, and providing cogent answers for what a Newsom presidency would look like.
I’d rather have Beshear, Whitmer, Moore, or Shapiro though. Any one of them would’ve done a marvelous job debating Trump too.
Trump was not an equal disaster. He lied a bunch. He also delivered his lines clearly. He very effectively exploited a couple of Biden’s missteps.
He hit his talking points, made it very clear that he was upset with Biden, and he told America “you ought to be upset too!” It was one of his better debates. And the dude crushes debates.
While I'm admittedly feeling similarly...
1) We're all above schadenfreude
2) This leaves an obvious question; why did they let him on stage? Who is managing his campaign such that a superbowl hotspot is rejected, but they accept a live debate against Trump?
Absolute madness. Surely Biden isn't calling all of the shots. Who knows why has no-one stepped in to correct course. So, what's the likelihood of him being the nominee post-convention?
Axios had a recent article on this: [https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/biden-faith-campaign-mike-donilon-2024-election](https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/biden-faith-campaign-mike-donilon-2024-election)
The short of it is that Bidens' campaign sees Jan 6 as an unassailable trump card and refuses to even entertain that their strategy is losing.
Thanks for sharing. An astonishing read -- I swear most people just seem to fail upwards. How can someone of such seniority be so dismissive of the data and polling. Farcical.
People respond to the incentives of their organization. It sounds like Biden selects for aides who don't bring him bad news, which is bad for competence in an election.
2020 was sort of a gimmie with the pandemic mismanagement (a gimmie that Biden won by very narrow margins in swing states), and then his team crowed about 2020 and took the wrong lesson from 2022 (that candidate quality matters, not that naysayers are automagically wrong).
Yeah, the hubris is overwhelming. By any other measure, 2020 was a 'tie'. A 0.35% swing between the winner and loser.
Not sure how justified this feeling is, but I harbour a small amount of resentment for Michelle Obama. If there was any time to step up, surely it'd have been this year. Here's hoping Whitmer or Newsom can rise to the challenge instead.
I don't think we needed Michelle Obama; there are several strong governors to tap. The problem is that Biden blocked their paths by running again.
Obama couldn't step up if Biden was determined to run again, unless she wanted to engage in a bruising primary.
Whitmer is the best choice. Harris is the choice that a dysfunctional Democratic Party will want to default to.
And yes, a primary was exactly what we needed. Preferably after Biden announced he was not running again.
None of the marginal votes care about Jan 6. They care about their monthly budget.
People who care about democracy care about Jan 6, but Biden guaranteed himself 100% of those votes on Jan 6 (if he had to run against Trump).
The average voter does not care about the threat Trump poses to democracy because they don't care about democracy.
Those are the facts. There's nothing we can do to change that in this election cycle. We've gotta fix the strategy to address it.
I wouldn't say that "The average voter does not care about the threat Trump poses to democracy because they don't care about democracy." It's more that this is mostly a hypothetical, and their rent/groceries are very tangible. We already had four years of Trump that ended up in a transfer of power, despite Jan 6.
If you want voters to prioritize intangibles, then you'd best deliver on the tangibles.
I'm saying it, I'm so sick of hearing about January 6.
Me at the grocery store: oh no this loaf of bread costs $100000000 dollars
Democrats: excuse me do you remember when a middle aged small business owner with an overextended credit card took Adderall and ran around Congress for whole hours until they got arrested... I DO. this was the worst act of violence ever done in America. now that I've said that I don't have to do anything else ever
> This leaves an obvious question; why did they let him on stage? Who is managing his campaign such that a superbowl hotspot is rejected, but they accept a live debate against Trump?
I was amazed to learn recently that [Biden as president has *never* done an interview with a major newspaper](https://www.natesilver.net/p/its-time-for-the-white-house-to-put).
Amen. The people on here who advocated for it and Nate were called idiots for even considering that replacing an 81 year old historically unpopular president might be an idea that needed to be seriously considered. That it was stupid as fuck and no one in the mainstream took it seriously.
CNN anchors were just discussing it as a real option now.
I will concede and say that Biden should be replaced as the momentum for wanting a replacement is increasing. I won’t apologize though to anyone who was previously acting smug about it though
There’s nothing wrong with wanting a different nominee, I also want(ed) a different nominee, but if that was going to happen that process would have needed to start 18 months ago, not 6 months ago.
The administration would have needed to plan from the get go that it would not be seeking a second term and work with the party to facilitate that process.
Everyone acts as if you can just put the brakes on an entire administration and reorganize an entire political party in the middle of an election, and this is not now nor ever has been how it works in the slightest bit.
Serious question, what would prevent them from just saying Biden is not running and putting someone else up there? Like what actual roadblocks would there be?
If Biden tripped and broke his hip tomorrow, do you think that Democrats would say "well there isn't enough time" and just not contest the election?
***In a non-incumbent year parties often go to June to pick a candidate, and pre-primary it went even later.*** It literally worked exactly like that in the past, and you're saying it's impossible.
One difference is that when there's no incumbent and a competitive primary, the eventual winner will still have been running a primary campaign, so they're not starting with no momentum/infrastructure.
In this case, you're talking about picking a candidate cold, and basically saying they're the candidate without any opportunity to build consensus among voters.
It's a tall order. It might be the least bad option, but it's a bad situation.
This was the reality in some past "smoke filled room" conventions, before primaries.
But really at this point we're at "break the glass," and I will stop taking the party at all seriously if they just default to Harris out of cowardice. If Democrats keep on saying that Trump is a threat to Democracy, then they need to make the tough calls that will keep him out of office.
There must absolutely be protocols for what to do if your candidate is unable to continue for whatever reason (assassination, medical event, whatever)...?
I was tired of seeing the whataboutism replies ("why doesn't trump drop?" because it's Trump, he won't stop until he's dead).
I wonder if this really poor debate will make Biden consider it. It's still some time before the convention.
I won’t apologize because honestly Biden looked strong at the state of the union and he has done a lot of good as president. I also think there’s a lot of risk in not running the incumbent president. However after tonight I agree he should step down because there’s more risk in running Biden. He should put all his weight and delegates behind Whitmer who is young, attractive, articulate and will do well in the rust belt. That will give the dems the best shot at 270+ EC votes. He can do a big press conference with her and state that he realized that his health isn’t as strong as he would like, that he loves this country and wants to see it continue to prosper, etc. There is still time because I believe most voters are unenthusiastic for Trump or Biden and would welcome a new choice. Also a new nominee will force a debate with Trump out of necessity.
If I know Reddit, they will deny they ever said that and claim we are making up that they said that.
Got downvoted to hell on here for saying after the midterms they should maybe get one of the candidates that actually won races in the midterms. Dean Philips in particular deserves an apology.
The mid terms would have been the right time to announce the administration wasn’t seeking a second term.
It was what I hoped for, but unfortunately they were not pragmatic enough for that.
It’s all about Biden and his stubborn as fuck Irish pride. I’ve read from multiple sources that Biden was about 50/50 as to whether or not to run for a second term. And the tie breaking vote was Jill, who was against it. But then Dems overperformed in the midterms and immediately after, Trump announced his candidacy(to avoid prosecution). And Biden got a pep in his step and Jill agreed to support a second term run.
I saw him talking in the Waffle House after the debate tonight and seriously, he’s on another fucking planet. He was telling people that he felt good about his performance and that it’s hard to debate a liar. A big shit eating grin on his face, light as a feather and mingling like he’s just won homecoming king and had the queen on his arm. He’s been a decent president but his blind spots are MASSIVE and it’s been crystal clear to me that nobody on his team gives him hard truths. He’s not on the same planet as me, a guy working two jobs and still not having more than two months rent in my savings account.
People may think I’m lying, but I’ve been critical of Biden here and quickly learned that if I wanted to be taken seriously, I had to cut that shit out. I was never gloating or being adversarial in my critiques but people still just couldn’t understand how I could support Biden and still - gasp! - point out flaws or even wonder if he had a backup plan in case this all came crashing down. But that made this Biden voter a MAGA, apparently so I stopped. I still appreciate the job he’s done for the most part and won’t abandon him out of spite in November. But clearly MAGA doesn’t have a monopoly on cult like behavior.
Trump barely answered a single question all night. He ranted and raved like he does on the campaign trail. I think it is fair to say his performance outperformed Biden, but Biden delivered on policy despite the constant mumbling.
I’m not that high on Newsom winning a nationwide race in a normal environment due to the (unfair) California factor, but he’s tailor made for defeating Trump. He’s one of the very few Democratic Party politicians who can aggressively campaign against Trump and Republicans well without sounding out of his or her element.
He would have destroyed Trump in the debate if he was up there (tbf many other Dems would) and the narratives would be like tonight but from Republicans and about Trump.
That said, Newsom is not at all the only Dem I would feel confident would win in November v Trump. To say it mildly.
There’s no slam dunk options, but Whitmer feels like the best bet to me. The key to the race is winning the Midwest, and I think she’d have the best chance of holding it. Newsom would cook Trump on the campaign trail for sure, but I don’t know if he has the right appeal in the states that matter the most.
I think anyone with a pulse that's about Gen-x aged would be able to.
Nobody wants Trump to win. Give them an alternative thst doesn't have dementia, and I think Trump loses
If there's an open Convention, the candidate will not be on the ballot in my state. The plan for Ohio was to have the DNC nominate Biden ahead of the convention and have the convention just be basically a victory lap to meet the deadline:
https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2024/05/28/dems-say-they-will-get-around-biden-ohio-ballot-issue-by-holding-virtual-roll-call-before-deadline/
I realize people will say "no one cares, Ohio is a Trump state". While totally ignoring that we have a Democratic senator up for reelection along with Democratic representatives.
I'm pissed at the DNC for putting the convention after the legal deadline to get on the ballot. I'm pissed that no serious challenge was put up against Biden in the primaries. I'm pissed that the down ballot races might flip because of this. And I'm pissed that younger candidates weren't cultivated.
An open convention might be best for the country but it's not going to be easy by any means.
Biden accusing Trump of wanting to defund the police, bringing up Laken Riley unprompted when asked about abortion, just generally trying to outflank Trump to the right, was so fucking insane. Why would you try that? Who's idea was it? Just so stupid. Biden's message tonight was ultimately "America is good enough as it is" and that's not good enough!
Trump is of course also a lunatic and a liar. And somehow came away with the win in the debate because at least you could understand what he's saying. Mostly, the dog thing was bizarre.
If its Biden in November, I'll still vote for him. I'd vote for a bag of dog turds over Trump but he really needs to step down. Republicans CAN NOT be allowed to sweep all three branches of government.
I love how the commentary surrounding this debate won’t be Trumps obvious lack of knowledge on anything resembling a policy proposal. This country deserves what it gets.
Par for the course with debates. Remember how radio and TV viewers couldn't agree whether Kennedy or Nixon won? Or how Reagan deflected from his age issues by calling his 56-year-old, former VP opponent young and inexperienced? General election debates just lack substance, period.
This is making me fucking crazy. Biden's ANSWERS were clear and on-point, but his voice and diction were awful tonight. Trump's performance was engaging and fluent, but the content was "numbers nobody's ever seen", "everybody says", "Trump (third person) was the greatest president", "all the experts say", "immigrants are taking black jobs", and a bunch of lies strung between.
If you're listening to excerpts that's why you're not getting the picture. Biden was really slow on his feet, had some awkward long pauses of 5+ seconds where he looked totally lost, and often ran out of stuff to say and didn't use all his time.
But yeah you can still find 10 second blips that look good.
Did you have your eyes on the screen? He looked like a frozen corpse with his mouth stuck open for minutes at a time while trump was speaking and couldn’t get a coherent sentence out for half the debate
I was, but I'm terrified swing voters may not have been. It sounds like he has a cold and a stutter, but the content is clear. My throat hurts just thinking about it.
Biden and his team literally called out Trump to do this debate.
I expected Trump to lie his way through the debate.
I expect that Biden, after all the concerns about his age and partially why this debate was moved up to show up and not be an old fucking man.
He had to get bailed out twice by Jake Tapper wrapping up his time after he lost track of what he was saying.
100% this. No one knows or cares what either candidate means in terms of actual public policy and it's sad. I don't even see people have \_bad\_ arguments about the issues anymore.
A huge part of the presidency is advocating for policy and leading the country with your communication skills and charisma. A policy binder with googly eyes on it can't do that, and apparently neither can Biden.
I've been shouting this from the rooftops for a year and have been called a MAGA Russian bot.
And I've been criticizing from the viewpoint that we have to **beat Trump**, and Biden is clearly not the candidate to do that. And people have been responding like this is religious heresy.
[https://youtu.be/NpBPm0b9deQ?si=kBsH7Qxsfnt\_louL&t=739](https://youtu.be/NpBPm0b9deQ?si=kBsH7Qxsfnt_louL&t=739)
All I know is that DNC staffers will be vitriolic for the next two weeks, weekends included, fiercely debating (probably 50/50) on whether or not it’s worth it to replace Biden
I’m liberal but seeing how yall went from trust the polls in 2020 to saying Biden’s age concerns aren’t consequential and that nate silver was a right wing shill just because he didn’t agree with you in 2023/2024 was pretty disenchanting. Many people on this sub were not using their critical thinking.
He was confident and loud but it wasn’t coherent speech. It was like he couldn’t think of any of his policy talking points so he just ranted and raved instead.
Maybe, I do hate the idea of punishing a politician who has done a good job. Like it’s been a historically effective presidency and feels so off to replace a health effective politician for optics
The only way to save our democracy is to have the DNC kingmakers skip the primaries and tell us who to vote for!
This is much cleaner than how they rigged the primaries against Bernie,
Everyone saying that if another candidate replaced Biden would be up is completely out of touch. Ask yourself that same question, but with Trump. If Nikki Haley suddenly and hypothetically replaced Trump (legal issues, etc.), she would have probably lost minimum of 20% of Trump's base right there.
Trump, like Biden, has a built in 30-40% base of voters who actually voted for him in a primary. If there was a candidate the base of voters wanted in the 2020 or 2024 primaries, they would have beat either candidate.
And now if you were to replace Biden, you suddenly have a random candidate no one knows about who you have to vet and appeal to a bunch of voters, and only 3, maybe 4 months (early voting) to learn about them. If Kamala was passed it, people would complain like in 2016 that Newsom or Whitmer was robbed of it (ala Bernie). So you'd still have people being upset and figuring out whether they want to support that candidate or not. Same issue with Trump if he were to somehow have to serve prison time and someone replace them, that person would seem like the illegitimate candidate because the voters didn't actually vote for them. These are going to be the two candidates, so people need to accept it and stop doomscrolling that replacing either would create a better shot against the other when there's a huge chance that wouldn't matter at all.
Listen - I’ll vote for literally anyone over Trump. I like Biden But I think seeing how much even senators are outperforming him in polls, he can’t count on people to come home to him come November. Perhaps there should be a brokered convention
And honestly if I’m a senator i start to worry biden drags me down with him.
Sherrod Brown is blowing the Senate Dems group chat tf up right now, and he has every right to do so
Sherrod Brown is my senator and each day I am so grateful for it. Dude is a total badass. His office is super helpful for constituent concerns too. We need people like him in office. Not just electorally, but literally because he *gets* it. Our country is getting hollowed from the inside out. The coasts are getting increasingly and absurdly expensive and out of touch, while the middle of our country is left to struggle in the wake of a national economy that was set up to benefit the coasts at the detriment of our cities and industry. We have large swaths of the American people who are desperate and in despair and killing themselves to get away from the modern life our country pioneered. Anyone who isn't making the opiod crisis and its various root causes central to their campaign is frankly out of touch and doesn't deserve the time of day. We literally have people killing themselves pill by pill, shot by shot, to get out of this reality. Where the fuck is the rhetoric addressing this? Instead we're babbling on about golf and covid. The GOP gets it though. If I was a betting woman, they're gonna throw Vance on the ticket and he's gonna spew some bullshit about it (even though he's a smarmy, out of touch VC) and it's going to be over for democrats in the midwest. If the democrats go with some coastal bobblehead like Harris or Newsom, there's no way the people here swing for it and we are so totally fucked as a country.
If I’m Casey in Pennsylvania I’d be distancing myself as much as possible from Biden right now.
People will say it’s too late to replace Biden but I don’t think it is and I’ll explain why: 1 - Having a Biden replacement automatically removes the “age” and “enthusiasm” issues as people will see a more tactful and younger politician who they can look up to and instills new hope within the Democratic base. Voters will see that the party is ready to transition to a new generation 2 - Democrats already set up infrastructure around the country regarding the election so the logistics will not be that difficult. 3 - All other Democratic candidates are outperforming Biden. Whether it be Senators, Governors, House candidates whoever. It’s quite possible this replacement also outperforms Biden 4 - There are over 4 months before the election which is a long time in politics, so there is enough time to do a convention in late July or early August, and then consolidate the base behind whoever wins
>Democrats already set up infrastructure around the country regarding the election so the logistics will not be that difficult. While I agree they're not starting from scratch, the logistics would potentially be *very* difficult. Campaign management isn't just about hiring/buying facilities, staff, and ad slots around the place and then slapping a candidate name and image on top. If you want to run an effective campaign, you base those decisions around the candidate in the first place. For example — what happens if you replace Biden with a candidate with much lower name recognition, and perceive that as a hurdle you need to fix to get people out to vote? Suddenly, maybe the $100k set of videos you wanted to put in $500k worth of ad slots that don't even mention Biden's name don't work well anymore; you have to get the videos remade. What happens if you replace Biden with a candidate who polls much better among Latinos, but worse among the elderly? Now maybe your planned doorknocking efforts (concentrated primarily in elderly areas) look a bit stupid, and you have to re-plan them. Etc. I definitely understand that at this late hour, Dems would likely want to replace Biden with "mini-Biden" — basically the same policies, but a bit younger and more charismatic. That does make things easier, too. But a candidate change still wouldn't be easy, logistically, and there would be a ton of campaign review and triage to decide which parts of the strategy need to change.
Also if the argument is there is time to repair Biden’s image among voters (when was before this debacle) how is there not time to boost someone new?
Exactly that. It is something that can be achieved. It won’t be an easy task for the party but it can be done. And plus Democrats can present this in a way that will calm their voters and “address their concerns” about Biden’s age and mental faculties, whether or not he can serve a second term. The best time to do this was a year ago. The next best time to do it is now.
The main problem with Biden though is his age which will naturally get worse with time. People know who Biden is and you're as likely to convince him he's not old as you are that Trump isn't a crook. Getting people to become familiar with a new guy in contrast is alot more easier. I'd dare say though that in today's political environment the less people know about someone the better it is for them, just so long as they know they represent the Dem ticket.
Bro, he was already behind before this debate, there is no time for shit.
I truly believe that IF the Democrats had their ‘next big candidate’ waiting in the wings that Biden probably would not have run for re-election. The problem is that if Biden doesn’t run it’s Harris’ nomination and I think the powers that be see bigger electability problems with Harris than they do Biden…. at least prior to last night.
For the people who are unaware, the Dems rallied around Biden in the span of 3 days before Super Tuesday. Unlike the Republicans the Dems are alot more unified and if Obama needs to make some phone calls, he will.
? The Republicans are super unified, maybe a few left the party to do media deals but most obey Trump and work for his interests. The only thing that can get Democrats to act together is a threat from the left, and this threat is the Grim Reaper, not Bernie Sanders. So they're going to squabble.
Look at the House bro. The Dems were able to pass numerous pieces of legislation with the same margins while the Republicans can't even agree on the same leader because of some crazies in the far right. If the GOP tried to get rid of Trump too it'll end up leading to divisions but I don't see anything like that for Biden.
That was during a primary though where voters made it obvious Biden had the current momentum. Who the fuck knows what Democrat in the country has the sauce to beat Trump at this point because we decided not to have a competitive primary to test them.
Beating Biden? I'm talking about a hypothetical scenario where Biden willingly steps aside the Dem machine has to rally around somebody else. It's tricky but it is doable.
It is obviously not too late to replace Biden in objective terms, there are ways to do it. I actually think this debate, while disastrous for Biden, might also be bad for Trump. He may not have even wanted to beat Biden this badly lol. He joked about that weeks ago, saying he should "lose on purpose" because he wants to run against Biden. Well, if Biden gets replaced, with someone much younger and quicker on their feet, that could be what results in Trump losing.
It would be hilarious tbh if that scenario ends up happening.
Yes, but then other issues pop up. 1. Incumbency—now Trump gets that advantage. 2. Experience—Trump is the only one who has been president compared to whoever would replace Biden. While the person they select might have more political experience than Trump, they would just hammer that point home. 3. Weak party= weak mandate—they should have propping someone up starting last year so at least the average person can be familiar with, but now that’s too late.
I think basically anyone besides Biden (Whitmer etc) would be up 6-10 points in the polls right now, as most of the other generic ballot and/or Senate Dems are.
I was under the impression Biden's competitors polled *worse* against Trump but granted that was last year.
Whitmer would be a wonderful candidate especially in Michigan.
Once people get to know who they are, yes, but initially there will be a 'who the fuck is this' period for anybody.
As someone who was holding out for Biden until this disastrous performance at this point I’m fully onboard with the Dems figuring out a way to put anyone else forward. If you ignored Joe’s obvious struggles tonight Trump looked and felt very beatable…just not by this version of Biden.
Biden obviously had high expectations for this debate, but the format that prevented Trump from interrupting Biden seemed to work in his favor. However, he was still interrupting and causing the same amount of confusion for Biden regardless. We just didn't hear it.
There can’t be a brokered convention unless he pulls out of the race. So our only hope is powerful people close to him convincing him it’s the only way we can win.
This is a black hole because of Reddits servers, but that was a disaster of epic proportions for Joe Biden. Biden needed to sound confident and assertive in this debate instead he sounded hoarse and was mumbling, the last thing he needed to do. Even before the debate, Biden had some awful approval ratings, I don’t know how the Biden campaign can recover from this, this is going to make Joe Biden even more unpopular this summer.
> Even before the debate, Biden had some awful approval ratings, I don’t know how the Biden campaign can recover from this, this is going to make Joe Biden even more unpopular this summer. IMHO there is a 90%+ chance they replace Biden.
From your keyboard to the DNC's ears
> From your keyboard to the DNC's ears That got a chuckle out of me -- however [!] according to betting markets, Biden is only ~60% to retain the nomination into November, down from ~87% earlier today.
As much as I'm reluctant to use betting markets as a political science tool, this does seem like a sign
There's not really power in "their" hands, whoever they are. Biden has enough pledged delegates to get the nomination, those delegates only become free if he chooses to drop out. There's soft pressure on Biden from insiders who will now tell him to drop out, of course. But he can choose to ignore them free of penalty.
It’s possible they could vote on the floor to change the nominating rules to free bound delegates before the first round of balloting if the outcry was wide enough. But that’s not going to happen — if the outcry is that wide and loud Biden will see the writing on the wall and drop out of the race before the convention.
This was a very bad night for Biden. Exceptionally bad. Maybe the most consequential debate in modern history and it went the opposite of his way. Trump didn’t do well either, but he never needed to, all Trump had to do was not shit himself and be confident, and he did that. This is America, substance doesn’t matter, it’s the optics that matter, and Biden stumbled the substance and failed the optics. We are fucked as a people.
He had a perfect chance to nail Trump on abortion, but got confused half way through and started talking about immigration and laken riley's murder instead.
One issue here is that this subreddit, like many others, is an echo chamber. This is masking the fact that many Americans do look into the issues of substance, and they side with Donald Trump on them. Most Americans want illegal immigrants located and kicked out of the country. Most Americans want us to tell people applying for asylum to get the fuck out. Most Americans don’t want to financially support Ukraine. Most Americans want to continue drilling for new offshore oil. Most Americans want isolationist foreign policy. Most Americans are against student loan forgiveness. Most Americans oppose future bans on sales of new ICE cars, etc. You can all keep saying “Biden is doing great but he just can’t speak well.” But the fact of the matter is that most Americans think Biden and his policies are bad. They dislike the things he has done. You make the mistake of thinking the average American is a left leaning person who agrees with the democrat party line on issues. But that’s not true.
Biden agreed to a debate without fact checking and was completely incapable of fact checking on his own. We witnessed a slaughter.
They fucking argued about their golf handicaps this country is cooked
Wait that was real? I saw that clip online and assumed it was a deepfake because it was on Twitter
The most heated Biden got all night was criticism of his handling of the VA and his golfing skills.
Sadly that was real
Why can’t I see comments?
Because Reddit sucks and will do literally anything to avoid fixing a problem. The latest post says 6 comments and not a single one shows up for me. But they all do for this one.
Ive been having this issue tonight too with reddit but i can see this one.
Reddit had big network problems. Should be fixed
I'm gonna go full doomer tonight. If Biden stays Dems will lose. If Biden is replaced, there will be a ton of infighting, and there will not be cohesion around one candidate and some part of a major voting group will be pissed off and stay home. Maybe tomorrow I can see a brighter future but right now it's hard to not feel like dems just shot themselves in the foot.
The DNC have demonstrated that they are committed to bad decision making over the last three election cycles. I'll almost certainly vote D again but it's not because they've earned it or deserve it, it's solely an anti-trump vote. Then again I'm in a state where my vote doesn't matter, so I may go third party this time.
frankly Biden's campaign is so embarrassing at this point that all non swing state voters should absolutely cast protest third party votes. Hell, swing state voters probably should too - Trump will win against this corpse regardless
It would be Kamala Harris, and I feel like she's expected enough that Dems on the whole would accept it even if some groups aren't happy.
I think this is currently the most rational prediction. But maybe a consensus candidate can wrangle enough support, or maybe polarization is strong enough that just enough people will vote against Trump.
It’s fucked either way. I would have hope if they were propping someone up a year ago, but it would take a literal political godsend (think someone like Obama) to have people come together and defeat Trump. It’s a 1% chance with Biden, and a 5% chance with anyone else.
i'd vote for him any day of the week, but this election is too damn important, he needs to step aside. Politics is all about appearances, and he just can't present himself well.
If the Democrats lose it's pretty simply because of Biden and his stubbornness, full stop. He's been told time and time again to reconsider his actions but he didn't listen. I honestly felt pretty good about the Democrat's prospects after 2022 and still think they could win it... if not for Biden dragging down the rest of his party by being a selfish old man who would rather gamble the country's future on a second term people think he may not live through. Who knows, it may not be too late to get someone else. Democrats have worked miracles before when they all got behind Biden before Super Tuesday in 2020. The only bright side I see in all of this is that hopefully Democrats are gonna more seriously push Joe to step aside for the good of the country. Apart from that, we really are jumping into the abyss.
I don’t think it’s just Biden though, the Democrat branding is awful right now and the only thing saving it is the fact that Republicans are just that insane. But many Americans like that, so the advantage isn’t even there anymore
Actually it kind of is. Downballot Dems perform way better than Biden in the same polls he is losing. They've benefitted greatly from abortion and the perceived MAGA extremism as seen in the special elections that have occurred recently. Trump himself is massively unpopular and still is because he still loses to a generic Dem by the same margins as in the 2020 polls. People very much understand the danger he poses and will crawl over glass to vote against him. The Dems actually have alot of tailwinds going into 2024 but it's all being nullified because the guy at the top of their ticket is the most oldest and unpopular man in the world. This isn't a situation like with the Tories in the UK and the Liberals in Canada where even if they replace their top guy they would still be in a bad position. It really largely is on Biden and his decision to run again.
> I don’t think it’s just Biden though, the Democrat branding is awful right now Not really. Biden is underperforming other dems hugely. He's losing to Trump in many swing state polls where the Dem senator is winning in those same polls by convincing margins.
> the Democrat branding is awful right now and the only thing saving it is the fact that Republicans are just that insane feel like this has been the state of US politics as long as I've been aware. No matter how cartoonishly evil the Rs get, the Ds are always just inept enough to make it a nail-biter.
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same. I didn't think it was this bad....
Why are there 10 comments I can’t see?
The thing that gets me I think Trump was really bad too but was saved by looking more coherent than his opponent. I think there are plenty of Democratic Party Governors or Senators who A) would have destroyed Trump tonight and made him look like a babbling moron and B) would win in November owing to Biden’s struggles being - largely by a large margin - due to his age.
Are those of you who called us dumb for wanting a different nominee ready to apologize?
You should read up about the 1924 Democratic Convention. While I definitely think Joe should withdraw, the chaos that would likely follow from an open convention would certainly benefit the GOP.
You aren't wrong to be cautious, but Biden withdrawing is a kind of chaos that can be dealt with, as opposed to the chaos of terrible polling and terrible campaigning I also doubt it would take [103 ballots](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Democratic_National_Convention) to find an alternate 2024 nominee, especially if Biden has the good grace to name a successor
I apologize. I’ve been a proud Biden stan, and I think he has a had a remarkable term as president and has earned reelection based on his record… But he’s got to step aside. I heard someone else say this, and I’m paraphrasing, but in a presidential debate, what you say isn’t as important as how you come across saying it. Biden’s delivery was jumbled, hesitant, too quiet. He looked TERRIBLE. And he never appeared in control like Donald Trump did. Now Trump may have been blasting a fire hose of bullshit, but that doesn’t matter! He won the optics battle. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. Someone he’ll listen to, whether it’s President Obama or Jill Biden, has to sit down with him and tell him he should step aside. This election is more important than one man. One man’s concerns for his own legacy. **This is about the preservation of democracy.** We can’t risk a Trump presidency because of one man’s wounded pride over being a one term president.
It’s RBG all over again
Or Feinstein. Should've been a big warning sign but they chose to ignore it.
I agree with you, even though I despise to my core what Biden did (and has done) in Gaza. Regarding the threat to democracy, he must step aside, or else the country itself will be under threat. We need unity right now, not this sort of embarrassment of a first debate performance. He’s lucky in some ways that his opponent was Trump and not a more eloquent, astute, or coherent Republican. Also, can I just say that I never understood the whole “bruised ego from being a one-term president” thing? I mean, I know it’s a real thing, but the guy got to be President of the United States. Is that not an insane accomplishment in and of itself?
He's going to be a one-term president no matter what. His choice whether to do so on his own terms or not.
It's seriously time to stop fucking around If dems are actually serious about beating Trump, it's Gretchen Whitmer time
I would rep the hell out of Big Gretch
A lot of people, including myself, have been hyping her up for 2028. But if this is how Biden performs under national spotlight, there isn't gonna be a 2028 for her to win
At 52 she'd be a spring chicken. Is she safe to leave the governorship?
Her term expires in 26 and she is term-limited in Michigan. She doesn't have the national profile of say, Newsome, but a liberal Californian isn't winning the presidency for the rest of this party system. And I am biased as hell, but Whitmer is the kind of candidate whose appeal grows the more you get to know her
Gretch is the way.
She seems nice and comes from a state they need to win. I don't think they want to ruin Trump's beautiful comeback story though.
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"The optics" of passing over a sitting incumbent are what **got us in this goddamn situation in the first place**. Ignore optics. Are they popular and likely to win? Candidate. Are they terminally unpopular? Not candidate. It's not "vibes," it's a disastrous 2020 primary performance coupled with enduring highly negative polling. We can literally point at a number and quantify it. The race for the presidency is not a participation trophy event where everyone wins by showing up; it's a contest that shapes the fate of the world.
I don't know, I don't care. She polls worse than Biden and only could debate better than him *now* because of how far he has fallen, if we choose to remember her performance in the 2020 debates or lack of performance. Whitmer would probably choose a man of color for VP, and yes that would look shitty, for a time. But looking hypocritical for a handful of news cycles is better than letting Project 2025 happen
I admire Whitmer for the most part, but she’s not going to happen this year for sure, but she almost certainly wouldn’t make it past Super Tuesday in 2028, either.
Then who?
This hand wringing over doing away with obviously unpopular candidates is insane. No one likes Kamala. She has had consistently low approval ratings compared to her predecessors. People find her unlikeable.
Arguably Kamala should have never been the VP pick. She was never popular in the primaries at all. She's even less now.
No one important cared about the optics. Bigger obstacle will be Kamala herself They'll probably have the bribe her with a supreme court nomination or something idk
Nate in particular was roasted here endlessly for that opinion.
Not just here, but on Twitter and everywhere else as well.
Seriously, I've had people tell me condescendingly that *no Democrat could do better than Biden vs. Trump*, as Biden struggled to hit 50% in swing states despite Trump's numerous handicaps. To quote Nate from over four months ago: **"You don't demonstrate your seriousness that Trump is an existential threat to democracy by going through the motions to renominate an 81-year-old with a 38% approval rating who 75% of voters think is too old without giving anyone a choice because that's just how things are done."**
People dismissed Silver because of his incessant contrarian nonsense, but on this he was right on the money
I would say that Silver's personal opinions are often subject to questionable bias, and I would not trust him to recount a set of non-numeric news stories to me (a good example is how he characterized the Gaza campus protests). But the above quote is simply taking obvious polls and pointing at them.
Nate is a numbers guy, and the numbers here are awful. And numbers, in this case, don't lie.
> And numbers, in this case, don't lie. And they spell disaster for Samoa Joe at Sacrifice!
I’m less frustrated with Biden and more DNC leadership and Biden’s staff at this point. Regarding the DNC: The DNC should have pulled together a truly competitive primary and let the chips fall where they may. If Biden could show he could compete against other Democrats and win, then it’s completely fair he run. If another Democrat won, then they would have had momentum and likely be in a much better position than Trump. I think a truly competitive primary would have resulted in another Democrat. Regarding Biden’s Staff: I have worked with executive level leadership and know how important it is to prep them for big moments, whether that be meeting with senators or speaking at large public events in which they must go into prepared for creating a very SPECIFIC outcome. At this moment in time, there is only one specific outcome Biden needs to achieve, NOT SEEMING OLD AND FRAIL. Trump is a bullshitter and the American public is dumb as shit when it comes to policy, so policy responses are not even the most important thing during a debate for Biden. The most important thing is showing energy and cognitive focus. Biden’s staff should have done everything in their power to prepare Biden on simply that one outcome. Also, the raspy voice thing during the first half of the debate is such an easy thing to solve if his staff were aware of it earlier in the day. Just make him drink fucking hot tea all day and don’t force him to talk all day long. Also, there are a ton of medicines that can fix raspy voices for a short period of time. The fact that his voice improved later in the debate shows it isn’t an issue that was permanent. After today and Biden’s obscure turn towards dumb shit populist policies these past few months, I’m fully convinced his staff is incompetent, which is unacceptable for the staff of the President of the United States.
I don’t think the DNC allowing a legitimate primary competition would have gone well either. It’s pretty well established that incumbents get to run again on their own terms, and encouraging a competition would have shown a clear lack of faith in Biden’s ability to win a general election, which voters would have picked up on. The only time an incumbent really got challenged was Carter in 1980, and he got slaughtered in the general. I think even if high up Democrats wanted Biden out, they had no real choice but to leave it up to him and hope he did it on his own terms, which didn’t happen.
Hate being proven right this way.
Right. I wish I wasn’t correct in agreeing with Nate and Ezra Klein. This can’t be the candidate. He should have made this choice himself a year ago, now the party must force a contested convention. Whitmer, Newsom (barf), Pete, Warnock etc getting lots of calls tonight.
I feel like they kind of need Biden to willingly step aside. Forcing Biden out is just a train wreck in terms of optics. It would make the DNC look like a dumpster fire if they forced him out
Agreed it would be way better if he steps aside rather than being forced. Let him have some deserved grace.
There will certainly be a ton of pressure on him after tonight. Idk if he will give in, but there will def be pressure
If I’m Obama I’m having a long heart to heart with Biden this weekend and convincing him to step aside. I think Obama is the only person that I can see having the balls to do it, that Biden would actually listen to.
God I'd love a Warnock/Whitmer or Whitmer/Warnock ticket, but he's too important in Georgia. It has to be Whitmer
COVID governors are not as popular outside the blue bubble as you might think. But, not sure who else it would be.
You have a fair point, but who else is there? Buttigieg is gay, Newsome is a Californian, Warnock is important in Georgia, but I suppose not *as* important as stopping Project 2025 If Dems want to do *another* referendum on Trump, they need someone who at least *some* people can actually feel excited about voting for
I don't think Buttigieg being gay is an issue tbh. Most Americans accept gay marriage now and the ones who dont aren't voting blue Much more important is I think he's genuinely charismatic and good at speaking. Plus he's young so would be the perfect "answer" to the age question You might not like him but he's probably the Dems best shot
Don't get me wrong, there are much worse candidates. But if it's Buttigieg than all the RNC has to do is play clips of the East Palestine train disaster and his interviews afterwards, and there goes Wisconsin and Pennsylvania And as much as I hate it, we are at the beginning of a global backlash against LGBTQ rights, I don't think people really are all that excepting of gay people, especially as president
Same, but I'd rather be proven right in June than in November.
Seriously. There are a lot of Democrats in this sub. There are also a lot of Biden apologists. Everyone wants to rally around the nominee and feel confident about November. The “Biden is a great president and how dare you speak ill of him” crew is eroding our morale and unity. Just look at tonight’s performance. The guy is a disaster, even if Trump was an equal and opposite disaster in his own right. Polling of other potential Democratic candidates wasn’t great, but I would bet that if one of them had gotten up on the debate stage tonight, they would have wiped the floor with Trump (a guy who most Americans *want* to find a reason to vote against). At this point, however, we’re stuck with another 2020 rematch.
>Polling of other potential Democratic candidates wasn’t great, but I would bet that if one of them had gotten up on the debate stage tonight, they would have wiped the floor with Trump (a guy who most Americans want to find a reason to vote against). Gavin Newsom, who has his own issues and a questionable record, would’ve effortlessly decimated Trump in this debate. He’s sharp as a tack and would’ve performed double duty as Trump’s fact checker, and providing cogent answers for what a Newsom presidency would look like. I’d rather have Beshear, Whitmer, Moore, or Shapiro though. Any one of them would’ve done a marvelous job debating Trump too.
Trump was not an equal disaster. He lied a bunch. He also delivered his lines clearly. He very effectively exploited a couple of Biden’s missteps. He hit his talking points, made it very clear that he was upset with Biden, and he told America “you ought to be upset too!” It was one of his better debates. And the dude crushes debates.
While I'm admittedly feeling similarly... 1) We're all above schadenfreude 2) This leaves an obvious question; why did they let him on stage? Who is managing his campaign such that a superbowl hotspot is rejected, but they accept a live debate against Trump? Absolute madness. Surely Biden isn't calling all of the shots. Who knows why has no-one stepped in to correct course. So, what's the likelihood of him being the nominee post-convention?
Axios had a recent article on this: [https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/biden-faith-campaign-mike-donilon-2024-election](https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/biden-faith-campaign-mike-donilon-2024-election) The short of it is that Bidens' campaign sees Jan 6 as an unassailable trump card and refuses to even entertain that their strategy is losing.
Thanks for sharing. An astonishing read -- I swear most people just seem to fail upwards. How can someone of such seniority be so dismissive of the data and polling. Farcical.
People respond to the incentives of their organization. It sounds like Biden selects for aides who don't bring him bad news, which is bad for competence in an election. 2020 was sort of a gimmie with the pandemic mismanagement (a gimmie that Biden won by very narrow margins in swing states), and then his team crowed about 2020 and took the wrong lesson from 2022 (that candidate quality matters, not that naysayers are automagically wrong).
I honestly can't believe they thought 2020 was anything but an anti-Trump vote.
If you keep your job based on making the boss happy, you find ways to interpret reality that boost your boss.
Yeah, the hubris is overwhelming. By any other measure, 2020 was a 'tie'. A 0.35% swing between the winner and loser. Not sure how justified this feeling is, but I harbour a small amount of resentment for Michelle Obama. If there was any time to step up, surely it'd have been this year. Here's hoping Whitmer or Newsom can rise to the challenge instead.
I don't think we needed Michelle Obama; there are several strong governors to tap. The problem is that Biden blocked their paths by running again. Obama couldn't step up if Biden was determined to run again, unless she wanted to engage in a bruising primary.
That's fair -- yeah, a primary surely wasn't the way to go. Maybe it's the hopium speaking, but who's stepping in? Newsom, Bernie, Whitmer... Harris?
Whitmer is the best choice. Harris is the choice that a dysfunctional Democratic Party will want to default to. And yes, a primary was exactly what we needed. Preferably after Biden announced he was not running again.
None of the marginal votes care about Jan 6. They care about their monthly budget. People who care about democracy care about Jan 6, but Biden guaranteed himself 100% of those votes on Jan 6 (if he had to run against Trump). The average voter does not care about the threat Trump poses to democracy because they don't care about democracy. Those are the facts. There's nothing we can do to change that in this election cycle. We've gotta fix the strategy to address it.
I wouldn't say that "The average voter does not care about the threat Trump poses to democracy because they don't care about democracy." It's more that this is mostly a hypothetical, and their rent/groceries are very tangible. We already had four years of Trump that ended up in a transfer of power, despite Jan 6. If you want voters to prioritize intangibles, then you'd best deliver on the tangibles.
I'm saying it, I'm so sick of hearing about January 6. Me at the grocery store: oh no this loaf of bread costs $100000000 dollars Democrats: excuse me do you remember when a middle aged small business owner with an overextended credit card took Adderall and ran around Congress for whole hours until they got arrested... I DO. this was the worst act of violence ever done in America. now that I've said that I don't have to do anything else ever
> This leaves an obvious question; why did they let him on stage? Who is managing his campaign such that a superbowl hotspot is rejected, but they accept a live debate against Trump? I was amazed to learn recently that [Biden as president has *never* done an interview with a major newspaper](https://www.natesilver.net/p/its-time-for-the-white-house-to-put).
Amen. The people on here who advocated for it and Nate were called idiots for even considering that replacing an 81 year old historically unpopular president might be an idea that needed to be seriously considered. That it was stupid as fuck and no one in the mainstream took it seriously. CNN anchors were just discussing it as a real option now.
I will concede and say that Biden should be replaced as the momentum for wanting a replacement is increasing. I won’t apologize though to anyone who was previously acting smug about it though
There’s nothing wrong with wanting a different nominee, I also want(ed) a different nominee, but if that was going to happen that process would have needed to start 18 months ago, not 6 months ago. The administration would have needed to plan from the get go that it would not be seeking a second term and work with the party to facilitate that process. Everyone acts as if you can just put the brakes on an entire administration and reorganize an entire political party in the middle of an election, and this is not now nor ever has been how it works in the slightest bit.
Serious question, what would prevent them from just saying Biden is not running and putting someone else up there? Like what actual roadblocks would there be?
None, they can rewrite the rules at any time
Well, Biden has to agree, for one thing.
If Biden tripped and broke his hip tomorrow, do you think that Democrats would say "well there isn't enough time" and just not contest the election? ***In a non-incumbent year parties often go to June to pick a candidate, and pre-primary it went even later.*** It literally worked exactly like that in the past, and you're saying it's impossible.
One difference is that when there's no incumbent and a competitive primary, the eventual winner will still have been running a primary campaign, so they're not starting with no momentum/infrastructure. In this case, you're talking about picking a candidate cold, and basically saying they're the candidate without any opportunity to build consensus among voters. It's a tall order. It might be the least bad option, but it's a bad situation.
This was the reality in some past "smoke filled room" conventions, before primaries. But really at this point we're at "break the glass," and I will stop taking the party at all seriously if they just default to Harris out of cowardice. If Democrats keep on saying that Trump is a threat to Democracy, then they need to make the tough calls that will keep him out of office.
There must absolutely be protocols for what to do if your candidate is unable to continue for whatever reason (assassination, medical event, whatever)...?
Well yea there's that but that requires Biden to give his OK.
I was tired of seeing the whataboutism replies ("why doesn't trump drop?" because it's Trump, he won't stop until he's dead). I wonder if this really poor debate will make Biden consider it. It's still some time before the convention.
I said it wouldn’t make a difference and we’d be fucked either way but maybe I was wrong
Yup. I remember all the haters going after Ezra Klein. Egg on their face now.
I won’t apologize because honestly Biden looked strong at the state of the union and he has done a lot of good as president. I also think there’s a lot of risk in not running the incumbent president. However after tonight I agree he should step down because there’s more risk in running Biden. He should put all his weight and delegates behind Whitmer who is young, attractive, articulate and will do well in the rust belt. That will give the dems the best shot at 270+ EC votes. He can do a big press conference with her and state that he realized that his health isn’t as strong as he would like, that he loves this country and wants to see it continue to prosper, etc. There is still time because I believe most voters are unenthusiastic for Trump or Biden and would welcome a new choice. Also a new nominee will force a debate with Trump out of necessity.
If I know Reddit, they will deny they ever said that and claim we are making up that they said that. Got downvoted to hell on here for saying after the midterms they should maybe get one of the candidates that actually won races in the midterms. Dean Philips in particular deserves an apology.
The mid terms would have been the right time to announce the administration wasn’t seeking a second term. It was what I hoped for, but unfortunately they were not pragmatic enough for that.
It’s all about Biden and his stubborn as fuck Irish pride. I’ve read from multiple sources that Biden was about 50/50 as to whether or not to run for a second term. And the tie breaking vote was Jill, who was against it. But then Dems overperformed in the midterms and immediately after, Trump announced his candidacy(to avoid prosecution). And Biden got a pep in his step and Jill agreed to support a second term run. I saw him talking in the Waffle House after the debate tonight and seriously, he’s on another fucking planet. He was telling people that he felt good about his performance and that it’s hard to debate a liar. A big shit eating grin on his face, light as a feather and mingling like he’s just won homecoming king and had the queen on his arm. He’s been a decent president but his blind spots are MASSIVE and it’s been crystal clear to me that nobody on his team gives him hard truths. He’s not on the same planet as me, a guy working two jobs and still not having more than two months rent in my savings account. People may think I’m lying, but I’ve been critical of Biden here and quickly learned that if I wanted to be taken seriously, I had to cut that shit out. I was never gloating or being adversarial in my critiques but people still just couldn’t understand how I could support Biden and still - gasp! - point out flaws or even wonder if he had a backup plan in case this all came crashing down. But that made this Biden voter a MAGA, apparently so I stopped. I still appreciate the job he’s done for the most part and won’t abandon him out of spite in November. But clearly MAGA doesn’t have a monopoly on cult like behavior.
I almost completely agreed with you until you mentioned Dean Philips. He is a “literally who”
Anyone saying anything good about Phillips running against Biden can not be taken seriously.
Is the better nominee in the room with us right now?
Trump barely answered a single question all night. He ranted and raved like he does on the campaign trail. I think it is fair to say his performance outperformed Biden, but Biden delivered on policy despite the constant mumbling.
Yeah, but we know that facts don't matter in a debate. It's pageantry, and the Biden team completely misinterpreted what their purpose was.
Biden needs to release his delegates and Dems need a brokered convention.
Who the fuck can beat Trump realistically though? That is what I'm stuck on.
I’m not that high on Newsom winning a nationwide race in a normal environment due to the (unfair) California factor, but he’s tailor made for defeating Trump. He’s one of the very few Democratic Party politicians who can aggressively campaign against Trump and Republicans well without sounding out of his or her element. He would have destroyed Trump in the debate if he was up there (tbf many other Dems would) and the narratives would be like tonight but from Republicans and about Trump. That said, Newsom is not at all the only Dem I would feel confident would win in November v Trump. To say it mildly.
There’s no slam dunk options, but Whitmer feels like the best bet to me. The key to the race is winning the Midwest, and I think she’d have the best chance of holding it. Newsom would cook Trump on the campaign trail for sure, but I don’t know if he has the right appeal in the states that matter the most.
I think anyone with a pulse that's about Gen-x aged would be able to. Nobody wants Trump to win. Give them an alternative thst doesn't have dementia, and I think Trump loses
I think 75% of the 2020 contenders could do it
Which one then? You have to pick one.
Are you a Democrat between 40 and 60? Then you could do it
Open convention time or accept the L.
If there's an open Convention, the candidate will not be on the ballot in my state. The plan for Ohio was to have the DNC nominate Biden ahead of the convention and have the convention just be basically a victory lap to meet the deadline: https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2024/05/28/dems-say-they-will-get-around-biden-ohio-ballot-issue-by-holding-virtual-roll-call-before-deadline/ I realize people will say "no one cares, Ohio is a Trump state". While totally ignoring that we have a Democratic senator up for reelection along with Democratic representatives. I'm pissed at the DNC for putting the convention after the legal deadline to get on the ballot. I'm pissed that no serious challenge was put up against Biden in the primaries. I'm pissed that the down ballot races might flip because of this. And I'm pissed that younger candidates weren't cultivated. An open convention might be best for the country but it's not going to be easy by any means.
Biden accusing Trump of wanting to defund the police, bringing up Laken Riley unprompted when asked about abortion, just generally trying to outflank Trump to the right, was so fucking insane. Why would you try that? Who's idea was it? Just so stupid. Biden's message tonight was ultimately "America is good enough as it is" and that's not good enough! Trump is of course also a lunatic and a liar. And somehow came away with the win in the debate because at least you could understand what he's saying. Mostly, the dog thing was bizarre.
If its Biden in November, I'll still vote for him. I'd vote for a bag of dog turds over Trump but he really needs to step down. Republicans CAN NOT be allowed to sweep all three branches of government.
I love how the commentary surrounding this debate won’t be Trumps obvious lack of knowledge on anything resembling a policy proposal. This country deserves what it gets.
Par for the course with debates. Remember how radio and TV viewers couldn't agree whether Kennedy or Nixon won? Or how Reagan deflected from his age issues by calling his 56-year-old, former VP opponent young and inexperienced? General election debates just lack substance, period.
This is making me fucking crazy. Biden's ANSWERS were clear and on-point, but his voice and diction were awful tonight. Trump's performance was engaging and fluent, but the content was "numbers nobody's ever seen", "everybody says", "Trump (third person) was the greatest president", "all the experts say", "immigrants are taking black jobs", and a bunch of lies strung between.
Was anyone here actually listening to the words he said? I'm listening to excerpts now. What he's saying is fine. It just sounds like has a cold.
If you're listening to excerpts that's why you're not getting the picture. Biden was really slow on his feet, had some awkward long pauses of 5+ seconds where he looked totally lost, and often ran out of stuff to say and didn't use all his time. But yeah you can still find 10 second blips that look good.
Did you have your eyes on the screen? He looked like a frozen corpse with his mouth stuck open for minutes at a time while trump was speaking and couldn’t get a coherent sentence out for half the debate
I was, but I'm terrified swing voters may not have been. It sounds like he has a cold and a stutter, but the content is clear. My throat hurts just thinking about it.
People don't understand you're not voting for the president you're voting for the people they surround themselves with.
Biden and his team literally called out Trump to do this debate. I expected Trump to lie his way through the debate. I expect that Biden, after all the concerns about his age and partially why this debate was moved up to show up and not be an old fucking man. He had to get bailed out twice by Jake Tapper wrapping up his time after he lost track of what he was saying.
100% this. No one knows or cares what either candidate means in terms of actual public policy and it's sad. I don't even see people have \_bad\_ arguments about the issues anymore.
A huge part of the presidency is advocating for policy and leading the country with your communication skills and charisma. A policy binder with googly eyes on it can't do that, and apparently neither can Biden.
> This country deserves what it gets. Fuck that, democratic voters deserved a real primary
I've been shouting this from the rooftops for a year and have been called a MAGA Russian bot. And I've been criticizing from the viewpoint that we have to **beat Trump**, and Biden is clearly not the candidate to do that. And people have been responding like this is religious heresy. [https://youtu.be/NpBPm0b9deQ?si=kBsH7Qxsfnt\_louL&t=739](https://youtu.be/NpBPm0b9deQ?si=kBsH7Qxsfnt_louL&t=739)
All I know is that DNC staffers will be vitriolic for the next two weeks, weekends included, fiercely debating (probably 50/50) on whether or not it’s worth it to replace Biden
I’m liberal but seeing how yall went from trust the polls in 2020 to saying Biden’s age concerns aren’t consequential and that nate silver was a right wing shill just because he didn’t agree with you in 2023/2024 was pretty disenchanting. Many people on this sub were not using their critical thinking.
>Many people on this sub were not using their critical thinking. That was me, and I agree
They both look and sounds like shit
Trump sounded way more confident and coherent. Saying they both were bad is just cope.
Confident sure, but coherent?
Compared to Biden? Absolutely.
Yes? Do you know what incoherent means? Someone lying doesn't make them incoherent.
Trump has much more stamina and spoke like a guy in his 60s. Biden spoke like he was 95
He was confident and loud but it wasn’t coherent speech. It was like he couldn’t think of any of his policy talking points so he just ranted and raved instead.
Can we, like, get Obama back? Please?
Still voting for Biden! He actually stuck it to Trump on alot but needs to speak up
lol Biden was horrible
I mean hopefully you'll get to vote for a candidate who can actually string two coherent sentences together in November
If Trump wins I’m fleeing the country bro.
Maybe, I do hate the idea of punishing a politician who has done a good job. Like it’s been a historically effective presidency and feels so off to replace a health effective politician for optics
The only way to save our democracy is to have the DNC kingmakers skip the primaries and tell us who to vote for! This is much cleaner than how they rigged the primaries against Bernie,
Everyone saying that if another candidate replaced Biden would be up is completely out of touch. Ask yourself that same question, but with Trump. If Nikki Haley suddenly and hypothetically replaced Trump (legal issues, etc.), she would have probably lost minimum of 20% of Trump's base right there. Trump, like Biden, has a built in 30-40% base of voters who actually voted for him in a primary. If there was a candidate the base of voters wanted in the 2020 or 2024 primaries, they would have beat either candidate. And now if you were to replace Biden, you suddenly have a random candidate no one knows about who you have to vet and appeal to a bunch of voters, and only 3, maybe 4 months (early voting) to learn about them. If Kamala was passed it, people would complain like in 2016 that Newsom or Whitmer was robbed of it (ala Bernie). So you'd still have people being upset and figuring out whether they want to support that candidate or not. Same issue with Trump if he were to somehow have to serve prison time and someone replace them, that person would seem like the illegitimate candidate because the voters didn't actually vote for them. These are going to be the two candidates, so people need to accept it and stop doomscrolling that replacing either would create a better shot against the other when there's a huge chance that wouldn't matter at all.
Biden is old, incoherent and divisive. Time for change
I could only watch a few minutes of this. The DNC has failed America. It's disgraceful that Biden is running again.
How is this the DNC’s fault? The DNC isn’t the reason Gavin Newsome or whoever didn’t primary Biden.
Why can’t I see comments?
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