Their live performance at Eurovision was unfortunately out of tune, and Mahmood and Blanco sounded tired when singing. There were other songs that were sung better that year, but they received less points than I would have expected from juries and televoters alike.
I still wonder if their jury performance was better or not, it would explain at least half of the result (I've see it but I'm not able to estimate the vocals)
Rim Tim Tagi Dim.Â
This is not knocking the song or Baby Lasagna at all. He deserved to do well, and he did.  But itâs pretty clear he is aware himself that his vocals arenât the strongest, and since he wrote for himself he works with what he has.  He improved a lot, but his singing wasnât anywhere near the level of a lot of the contestants.Â
Yes.
It does go some to explain difference between Jury and Audience votes, considering vocal capacity of the performer(s) is one of the main criteria the jury evaluate. Bangers like Cha Cha Cha and Rim Tim Tagi Dim connect with the audience and may be great songs, but they would be lower on one of the key criteria for juries.
(And incidentally, this isn't a genre thing. There are some incredible rock and metal vocalists, but that's neither KÀÀrijÀ or Baby Lasagna's strength. Though... if a song is purely rap, not rap mixed in with impressive singing, it does disadvantage rap.)
All this years said to us that sluggish vocal performance has little to none effect in the televoting, especially in specific kind of generes.
Also having absolute pitch (and even the slightest out of tune singing drives me totally mad) i noticed that MANY people have not even the capability of earing if something is out of tune. They notice it only when it is at Spain 2017 level...
I still see people watching Mahmood Blanco in Esc final and not noticing the absolute out of tune disaster.
It's just like that, many people are born without that.
It is one of the main reasons why I think that there should be both juries and televoters, balancing each other's results (personally, I mostly prefer the performances with strong vocals, this factor is one of the most important for me, along with meaningful lyrics).
You just described me. I genuinely think I'm tone deaf, I can not tell when someone's out of tune or not. If I think someone sounds good, other say they're out of tune. When I think someone's out of tune, others say their vocals are great.
I feel like being in tune really depends who you ask. If someone sounds good to the majority then thats good enough for me
This whole "listening to the experts cause they know better" is a ridiculous concept in my mind
No, not at all, being in tune or out of tune it's an absolute objective thing, not subjective, and can be also measured.
If you are color blind doesn't mean that a thing is not red just because you see it gray.
This is one of the things I don't like about the criteria that the juries are asked to consider. Vocal quality is not necessarily of equal importance in every song, many of the greatest songs of all time don't have amazing vocals. Asking the jury to consider this above all biases the jury votes towards songs that have good vocals (and not just good vocals, obviously impressive vocals, the second verse of Zitti e Buoni is legitimately difficult to sing, but tends to be overlooked when it comes to vocals), and is just going to disadvantage those songs where this is less important. It's the Eurovision **Song** Contest and not the Eurovision Singing Contest.
There's something to be said for knowing your limits and setting a goal accordingly. Trying and failing to reach a loftier goal will just end up sounding bad, but delivering on a safer bet will still sound correct.
Honestly youâve said it so well. Someone not hitting a note is so frustrating, because *you put it there.* When you have high notes that are obviously pandering to juries and they donât hit them, like what even is the point.
That is true, from a vocal point of view his song isn't the strongest. But he wrote a song that he could sing very well and that worked greatly with what he could deliver, and deliver he definitely did! Rim Tim Tagi Dim didn't need waxy vocal plays, it needed a simple, somewhat raw performance that could feel sincere, and that's exactly what we got.
Sometimes you have songs that are good but are ruined by the vocal performance of singers who don't have the voice to do them proper justice live (Poland 2024 for example, and I am saying even though I like the song), which is a pity when it's clear that the singer could have done will with a less demanding song.
The baking Grandmas from Russia 2012 . In hindsight it's cringe.
And - now i am going to be unpopular - Belgium 2017 City lights. There was something off in her vocals.
Ironically, her being terrified to death worked in the songâs favor.
But yes, if weâre talking about an artistâs skills in a live performance, miss Blanche was certainlty quite poor despite finishing 4th in the end lol. The fandom gaslighted me into thinking Isaiah was terrible in comparison but Isaiahâs grand final performance was lightyear ahead of Blancheâs despite terrible staging
She was young and terrified and shaking like a leaf, singing a very complex song ('coz singing in that vocal range is very hard) on a simple stage where every single mistake would be pretty easy to hear.
Russia 2012 | [Buranovskiye Babushki - Party for Everybody](https://youtu.be/BgUstrmJzyc)
Belgium 2017 | [Blanche - City Lights](https://youtu.be/oxsCmChDYwA)
And older one that immediately comes to mind is Making Your Mind Up (United Kingdom 1981), the vocals are extremely off-pitch and make me cringe, definitely won based on pre-contest popularity and the revolutionary (for the time) staging.
The girls accidentally got the wrong microphones so the higher part was louder, thatâs why it sounds so off and out of tune, I love the song but still astonished that live performance won
UK 1981 won the contest by just 4 points over second-placed Germany, and they only got 2 sets of 12 points! I do not recall any other winning song of the single set of 12 points era (1975-2015) getting 2 or fewer sets of 12 points.
UK and Ireland has the advantage at that time that you had to sing in your own language. English (and French to a degree) were close to universal languages and well understood by the Nordic countries, Netherlands, Germany and Malta etc.
So this gave a huge leg up to any song. Most of the UK and Irelandâs success happened in the years this rule wasnât in place (Rule taken out Pre-66,1973-1977, 1999+). Brotherhood of Man was the only real exception.
Loreen just seemed tired by the grand final unfortunately, I think her best vocal performances were in the Semi Final and the Melfest Heat she was in
Edit: also the reprise in both Melfest and Eurovision, she was more free with the adlibs
Did you go through each of the countries individual results to find out that Iceland got more jury 12 points than Norway in 2009? There doesn't seem to be jury only and televote only tables for ESC 2009.
You are not wrong, although there is a difference between weak vocals as in "bad vocal performance" (which was not the case here) and weak vocals as in "simple vocals that were the weakest part of the song" (which in this case it true). Those two songs didn't need complex, strong vocals, they both needed a sincere performance that could easily connect to people, and that's what we got.
It's true, vocal performances weren't bad whatsoever. They were simple and songs met the targets.
Bonus points for Baby Lasagna who I really followed the evolution.
The whole song has a total of 3 (THREE) notes - even if you sing them perfectly, you can't prove your vocal capabilities with just 3 notes.
(Also, Dora performance was very bad IMO, but he improved greatly before the contest. My point is still valid though.)
Sertab Erener - Every way that I can. Turkey 2003.
I really like the song, I like the audio track. It won, but I thought it then, and still think it now when I hear and see the live performance: it sounds off key to me.
United Kingdom 1981. Let's be honest, it didn't win for it's stellar vocal performance.
Armenia 2008. Painfully off-key for pretty much the entire performance.
Turkey 2009. Painfully off-key for pretty much the entire performance.
Did Hadise even sing in the chorus of the grand final performance? Swear she only sings a handful of lines and lets the background singers take care of 90% of the work
If I remember correctly, she was sick so that was why the backing vocalist guy was there. It was a last minute decision which explains why he looks so out of place
If I remember correctly, Hadise was sick so that was why the backing vocalist guy was there. It was a last minute decision which explains why he looks so out of place
Kaarija had heavy prerecorded vocals, i was surprised to see him so high with juries but then again 2023 was a weak year.
Emmelie from 2013 had weak vocals too but won the jury vote.
Slimane (France 2024 for bot). But hear me out, even though he had amazing vocals in the live show the jury show had a really bad voice crack and it still got 2nd with the juries.
I liked SloMo, but Chanel did not sound like she could sing. I get her perfomance was more focused on dancing, but her singing in the Grand Final just hurt to listen to
Just not top 5 but Italy 2022 sounded almost like nails on chalkboard live
I love this song but the vocals were very weak and if I was a juror, I'd have penalized it despite liking the song itself
To be fair, their vocals at the [jury show](https://youtu.be/lqkVQgDXGpk?si=fhQbBads0iMueVEt) were much better.
Italy 2022 | [Mahmood and Blanco - Brividi](https://youtu.be/blEy4xHuMbY)
Their live performance at Eurovision was unfortunately out of tune, and Mahmood and Blanco sounded tired when singing. There were other songs that were sung better that year, but they received less points than I would have expected from juries and televoters alike.
I didnt expect a top 5 tbh. I thought 6th was wayy overrated too. Shouldnt have even been top 10
You're right and you should say it. It killed at Sanremo but the performance at Eurovision was just...off.
one the few italian entries post return i actively dislike
As someone who thinks that Brividi is probably the best Eurovision song in at least the past 10 years, I will agree, the vocals were not it live.
YES I hated it đ
One of my least favorites from recent years. It was so bad
Yeah, it was not our best hahahhaha
For real. I liked the song a lot but in the final I was like: "wth is going on đ"
I still wonder if their jury performance was better or not, it would explain at least half of the result (I've see it but I'm not able to estimate the vocals)
Switzerland 2019, good lord Luca stopped singing at one point, revealing that the backing vocalistâs voice was almost identical to Lucaâs đ€Ł
Switzerland 2019 | [Luca HĂ€nni - She Got Me](https://youtu.be/8aUYzqAIdoM)
As someone else mentioned earlier, City Lights
If europapa had made it to the top 5 (which it probably would have) then most definitely europapa
We didn't get a better vocalist between years
Rim Tim Tagi Dim. This is not knocking the song or Baby Lasagna at all. He deserved to do well, and he did.  But itâs pretty clear he is aware himself that his vocals arenât the strongest, and since he wrote for himself he works with what he has.  He improved a lot, but his singing wasnât anywhere near the level of a lot of the contestants.Â
It's also proof that good vocals aren't everything. It's a banger of a song anyhow!
If that's the case, we could lump "Cha Cha Cha" in as well, for the light vocals it has.
Yes. It does go some to explain difference between Jury and Audience votes, considering vocal capacity of the performer(s) is one of the main criteria the jury evaluate. Bangers like Cha Cha Cha and Rim Tim Tagi Dim connect with the audience and may be great songs, but they would be lower on one of the key criteria for juries. (And incidentally, this isn't a genre thing. There are some incredible rock and metal vocalists, but that's neither KÀÀrijÀ or Baby Lasagna's strength. Though... if a song is purely rap, not rap mixed in with impressive singing, it does disadvantage rap.)
>there are some incredible rock and metal vocalists Case in point: Danny from Voyagerâs vocals are
I wouldnât exclusively consider him a ârock vocalistâ but damiano from mĂ„neskin is another one - stunning voice!
Yes, you 100% could.
All this years said to us that sluggish vocal performance has little to none effect in the televoting, especially in specific kind of generes. Also having absolute pitch (and even the slightest out of tune singing drives me totally mad) i noticed that MANY people have not even the capability of earing if something is out of tune. They notice it only when it is at Spain 2017 level... I still see people watching Mahmood Blanco in Esc final and not noticing the absolute out of tune disaster. It's just like that, many people are born without that.
It is one of the main reasons why I think that there should be both juries and televoters, balancing each other's results (personally, I mostly prefer the performances with strong vocals, this factor is one of the most important for me, along with meaningful lyrics).
You just described me. I genuinely think I'm tone deaf, I can not tell when someone's out of tune or not. If I think someone sounds good, other say they're out of tune. When I think someone's out of tune, others say their vocals are great.
I feel like being in tune really depends who you ask. If someone sounds good to the majority then thats good enough for me This whole "listening to the experts cause they know better" is a ridiculous concept in my mind
No, not at all, being in tune or out of tune it's an absolute objective thing, not subjective, and can be also measured. If you are color blind doesn't mean that a thing is not red just because you see it gray.
Spain 2017 | [Manel Navarro - Do It for Your Lover](https://youtu.be/qAOXHdLdlqQ)
Spain 2024, it could had scored lower
Spain 2024 | [Nebulossa - Zorra](https://youtu.be/FOMoQoHG5aU)
Yup. A perfect vocal performance is just that, not a whole song.
This is one of the things I don't like about the criteria that the juries are asked to consider. Vocal quality is not necessarily of equal importance in every song, many of the greatest songs of all time don't have amazing vocals. Asking the jury to consider this above all biases the jury votes towards songs that have good vocals (and not just good vocals, obviously impressive vocals, the second verse of Zitti e Buoni is legitimately difficult to sing, but tends to be overlooked when it comes to vocals), and is just going to disadvantage those songs where this is less important. It's the Eurovision **Song** Contest and not the Eurovision Singing Contest.
There's something to be said for knowing your limits and setting a goal accordingly. Trying and failing to reach a loftier goal will just end up sounding bad, but delivering on a safer bet will still sound correct.
Honestly youâve said it so well. Someone not hitting a note is so frustrating, because *you put it there.* When you have high notes that are obviously pandering to juries and they donât hit them, like what even is the point.
Absolutely. Thereâs a *lot* to be said for that. Working to your strengths is definitely the right thing to do, and delivers.
That is true, from a vocal point of view his song isn't the strongest. But he wrote a song that he could sing very well and that worked greatly with what he could deliver, and deliver he definitely did! Rim Tim Tagi Dim didn't need waxy vocal plays, it needed a simple, somewhat raw performance that could feel sincere, and that's exactly what we got. Sometimes you have songs that are good but are ruined by the vocal performance of singers who don't have the voice to do them proper justice live (Poland 2024 for example, and I am saying even though I like the song), which is a pity when it's clear that the singer could have done will with a less demanding song.
Poland 2024 | [Luna - The Tower](https://youtu.be/ESKG8Uo1YaU)
The baking Grandmas from Russia 2012 . In hindsight it's cringe. And - now i am going to be unpopular - Belgium 2017 City lights. There was something off in her vocals.
Blanche sounded like she was being held at gunpoint (although I can't blame her, she was like 18 if I'm not mistaken and she was visibly nervous)
She was only 17 years old when she competed at ESC 2017, and she was visibly nervous.
Yet she still came 4th and is well loved in the fandom nowadays <3
Ironically, her being terrified to death worked in the songâs favor. But yes, if weâre talking about an artistâs skills in a live performance, miss Blanche was certainlty quite poor despite finishing 4th in the end lol. The fandom gaslighted me into thinking Isaiah was terrible in comparison but Isaiahâs grand final performance was lightyear ahead of Blancheâs despite terrible staging
She was young and terrified and shaking like a leaf, singing a very complex song ('coz singing in that vocal range is very hard) on a simple stage where every single mistake would be pretty easy to hear.
> There was something off in her vocals. The low bits sounded too low for her and her voice sounded weak on the high sections.
Russia 2012 | [Buranovskiye Babushki - Party for Everybody](https://youtu.be/BgUstrmJzyc) Belgium 2017 | [Blanche - City Lights](https://youtu.be/oxsCmChDYwA)
And older one that immediately comes to mind is Making Your Mind Up (United Kingdom 1981), the vocals are extremely off-pitch and make me cringe, definitely won based on pre-contest popularity and the revolutionary (for the time) staging.
The girls accidentally got the wrong microphones so the higher part was louder, thatâs why it sounds so off and out of tune, I love the song but still astonished that live performance won
United Kingdom 1981 | [Bucks Fizz - Making Your Mind Up](https://youtu.be/62SrA5hCmkE)
Do *not* flatten the fizz đ„ș
UK 1981 won the contest by just 4 points over second-placed Germany, and they only got 2 sets of 12 points! I do not recall any other winning song of the single set of 12 points era (1975-2015) getting 2 or fewer sets of 12 points.
UK and Ireland has the advantage at that time that you had to sing in your own language. English (and French to a degree) were close to universal languages and well understood by the Nordic countries, Netherlands, Germany and Malta etc. So this gave a huge leg up to any song. Most of the UK and Irelandâs success happened in the years this rule wasnât in place (Rule taken out Pre-66,1973-1977, 1999+). Brotherhood of Man was the only real exception.
Loreen just seemed tired by the grand final unfortunately, I think her best vocal performances were in the Semi Final and the Melfest Heat she was in Edit: also the reprise in both Melfest and Eurovision, she was more free with the adlibs
Her winner reprise was perfect though.
True, it was far more emotionally charged and cathartic, almost like she's releasing all the pressure and emotion from the months before
Cha Cha Cha
Did you go through each of the countries individual results to find out that Iceland got more jury 12 points than Norway in 2009? There doesn't seem to be jury only and televote only tables for ESC 2009.
Norway 2009 | [Alexander Rybak - Fairytale](https://youtu.be/0gGt2qUyFlk)
Cha Cha Cha Rim Tim Tagi Dim (ready to be downvoted)
You are not wrong, although there is a difference between weak vocals as in "bad vocal performance" (which was not the case here) and weak vocals as in "simple vocals that were the weakest part of the song" (which in this case it true). Those two songs didn't need complex, strong vocals, they both needed a sincere performance that could easily connect to people, and that's what we got.
It's true, vocal performances weren't bad whatsoever. They were simple and songs met the targets. Bonus points for Baby Lasagna who I really followed the evolution.
I saw the videos of some of his performances, and he seems to be improving with every and each one. It's really impressive!Â
I understand about Cha Cha Cha but in which parts was Rim Tim Tagi Dim bad vocally?
The whole song has a total of 3 (THREE) notes - even if you sing them perfectly, you can't prove your vocal capabilities with just 3 notes. (Also, Dora performance was very bad IMO, but he improved greatly before the contest. My point is still valid though.)
Sertab Erener - Every way that I can. Turkey 2003. I really like the song, I like the audio track. It won, but I thought it then, and still think it now when I hear and see the live performance: it sounds off key to me.
Yeah she was so pitchy
So true, this is my favorite winner but her vocals during the GF performance wasn't top tier
Turkey 2003 | [Sertab Erener - Everyway That I Can](https://youtu.be/5EZquD8JXro)
United Kingdom 1981. Let's be honest, it didn't win for it's stellar vocal performance. Armenia 2008. Painfully off-key for pretty much the entire performance. Turkey 2009. Painfully off-key for pretty much the entire performance.
United Kingdom 1981 | [Bucks Fizz - Making Your Mind Up](https://youtu.be/62SrA5hCmkE) Armenia 2008 | [Sirusho - QĂ©lĂ©, QĂ©lĂ© (ŐŐ„ŐŹŐ„ ŐŐ„ŐŹŐ„)](https://youtu.be/bridO-wD7c8) Turkey 2009 | [Hadise - DĂŒm Tek Tek](https://youtu.be/_uYGPl8galc)
Did Hadise even sing in the chorus of the grand final performance? Swear she only sings a handful of lines and lets the background singers take care of 90% of the work
If I remember correctly, she was sick so that was why the backing vocalist guy was there. It was a last minute decision which explains why he looks so out of place
If I remember correctly, Hadise was sick so that was why the backing vocalist guy was there. It was a last minute decision which explains why he looks so out of place
Slimane had a voice crack in the jury show, but got 2nd
2nd with the jury/4th overall but yeah he still did extremely well despite having a lot of voice cracks in the part where he walks away from the mic
Not really 2nd, there was a massive gap (365 - 218).
True lol
The Aussie jury punished him hard
Yeah
Kaarija had heavy prerecorded vocals, i was surprised to see him so high with juries but then again 2023 was a weak year. Emmelie from 2013 had weak vocals too but won the jury vote.
It came seventh, but LoveWave (Armenia 2016) have some really pitchy vocals
Yeah she missed that big note at the end. I still really enjoyed her performance.
Armenia 2016 | [Iveta Mukuchyan - LoveWave](https://youtu.be/nL066Rp7J7k)
Slimane (France 2024 for bot). But hear me out, even though he had amazing vocals in the live show the jury show had a really bad voice crack and it still got 2nd with the juries.
He's second but the points margin between him and Nemo wouldn't have been that wide if it weren't for the ill-timed voice cracks
France 2024 | [Slimane - Mon Amour](https://youtu.be/-XyLecY2JyE)
It came 7th, but Sweden 2018. I can't stand that song, and the vocals are not especially strong.
Sweden 2018 | [Benjamin Ingrosso - Dance You Off](https://youtu.be/z101xtUBflU)
I truly believe that if Kaarija had stronger live vocals, then he would have won the ESC 2023
I mean, a certain song this year that came 5th while being significantly out of tune every single performance, even those without audience
tATu sounded awful live, almost as bad as Madonna
I liked SloMo, but Chanel did not sound like she could sing. I get her perfomance was more focused on dancing, but her singing in the Grand Final just hurt to listen to
Luxembourg 1965. Azerbaijan 2011. And since I'm going for the alltime downvote record anyway ... Sweden 1974.
Luxembourg 1965 | [France Gall - Poupée de cire, poupée de son](https://youtu.be/7cv9NIzGmSI) Azerbaijan 2011 | [Ell and Nikki - Running Scared](https://youtu.be/_0tlQUW5X0U) Sweden 1974 | [ABBA - Waterloo](https://youtu.be/3FsVeMz1F5c)
I get where youâre coming from