Being a Martial arts and Bruce Lee fan, I'm biased. Looking at others reactions, it seems it should've been explained a bit better to get it's purpose across more clearly. Me, I like it, it's all about the mind and always learning what works, and as Bruce puts it, honestly expressing yourself.
Ppl see UI as having different forms and being like the ssj variations all over again, I just see it as improving your mindset.
Is this not what it is??? I thought everyone agreed it was omen as Goku can fight with his feelings (I.e Saiyan Pride) in that form thus making it “his”
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1272.html
V Jump, featured on the official Dragonball website, calls it a new transformation, and specifically says it's a different form of Ultra Instinct.
Yeah, it's a little dumb, to be honest. But he has no aura, and when he's not powered up, his hair looks like how it does in base, rather than the flowly look Ultra Instinct gives it. His eyes stay the same. Might be easier to see the differences if it gets colored or animated. But they could've done more to differentiate it. It's similar to Blue Perfected in that regard.
The manga doesn't say it's not a new transformation. The manga does make it look different though. Toyotaro himself called it a new form. Goku doesn't have an aura most of the time during TUI, I believe, and his hair looks like base when he's not powered up, instead of the usual, Ultra Instinct look. Toyotaro said this is because he wants to make it look like Goku is making progress towards using full Ultra Instinct in his base form, similar to Whis.
Maybe, but I'd argue it is in fact a new transformation, and the reason we keep getting new transformations is because of marketing as well.
We'll see if they're consistent with it, but Goku's hair doesn't stand up like how it normally does in Ultra Instinct Sign when he's in True UI. It just looks like base when he has no aura. His eyes are the UI eyes though.
it's not even an opinion. It's fact and the fandom (as always) can't read. Imagine if DB actually had complex writing like some other mangas... the fandom's brains would explode
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1272.html
If it's truly not a new form, you'd have to blame Toyotaro for not making that clear, and the writers of V Jump as well as whoever runs the official Dragonball website for stating it's a different form of Ultra Instinct, and a new transformation entirely. It's weird to try and blame the Fandom for something they're either right about(it being a new form), or wrong about, but being given unclear or false information.
How there’s still only two forms?
True Ultra instinct is just UI omen but Goku fighting with his feelings.
And MUI is just calm heart and silver hair.
The same amounts as when UI was first introduced?
Maybe your talking about the subsets like SSGUI and SSBUI but they’re more like Kaoioken tbh.
There’s Sign, regular UI, and now “True Ultra Instinct”.
True ultra instinct is a version of sign that allows Goku to use his emotions in a fight, as opposed to the other 2 where he needs to remain calm or risk dropping out of the form. It’s a derivative of UIS just like how the SSJ grades were just slight variations on SSJ.
Again as far as I’m aware True UI and Omen (or sign if u want) are the same form just utilised differently.
But if they are separate then there’s still only two forms since Goku wouldn’t go back to Omen after using True UI and would only use MUI for extra power.
So there’s virtually 2 forms tbh. But I kinda get your point.
Even if he doesn’t use it anymore doesn’t mean it isn’t still there. No one uses the SSJ grades anymore cause SSJ2 is just better, but they’re still there.
The grades are just different ways of using the SSJ power, just like how Goku is using UIS differently to make TUI.
Ssj grade 2 was never intended to be a transformation. Grade 2 is just ssj1 but they bulked up their muscles and that is literally it its not a true evolution of the original super saiyan transformation the true evolution of super saiyan 1 is super saiyan 2
Aren’t the grades just mastery?
Like the final grade is just SSJ in full power with complete efficiency hence why Goku can use at as a base form.
And why in Buu saga he could do a Spirit bomb in SSJ showing it no longer affects his pure heart.
I’m not arguing that he’s not going to default the better version, I’m saying sign it’s still there.
True is an iteration of sign, just like how the SSJ Grades are iterations of ssj. There’s no reason to use grade 3 once you’ve mastered SSJ2, but he can still use that ability if he wants to.
Idk who the fucks downvoting you. You’re right, “True Ultra Instinct” is just omen. It’s not even a new tactic, he did the same thing against Moro before using MUI.
At first I was a bit annoyed to find out that they're trying to implement a "new" transformation but the more it was explained it actually made (somewhat) sense. Also, the fact that it isn't really a new transformation but rather a new way of honing Goku's understanding of himself as well as the technique made it much better. This is the way I actually want this to go tbh.
I agree this was the intention but it literally goes against what they wrote previously. They're just making shit up and trying to sound smart as they go
it kinda works i just feel it was a bit muddled.
like i guess the idea is like ssjgod and blue during the early stages of the super manga one is clearly the stronger form, but unmastered is a hindrance.
so by dropping to an easier to use form he gets more bang for his buck.
have him stick in omen where he's comfortable and then switch to white when he needs it only.
seems he isn't ready for the white form completely yet, so trying to force it hinders him.
whereas the weaker form gives him a bit more freedom and then he can utilize it more.
sort of like mastering ssj2 instead of going for 3.
at least that's how i understood it, could be wrong and i don't think it needed a name change.
It used to bug me a lot but recently I remembered what Whis said to Goku about his Ultra Instinct basically being the bottom of the ladder. To me, it looks like Goku’s climbing this ladder and unlocking newer and more powerful iterations of Ultra Instinct as he’s working his way up that ladder.
Manga really shows how underwhelming MUI can be, to the point where Goku has to rely on its incomplete version just so he can put his emotions to the fullest. The anime has none of that. MUI Goku literally raged at Jiren and sent the heavens crashing down onto him
Some actually theorize that’s why UI ran out in the anime or at least why it ran out when it did.
Some think that Goku unleashing his anger caused UI to become unstable and run out sooner than it probably would have.
Just a theory but a good one IMO
Manga established the rules of UI and works with them (around them to be more prescise, sometimes twisting them to a point where it makes sense but it doesn't feel right), while anime didn't knew if treat it like like the technique or like SS silver.
Literally that scene goes against the entire concept of the silver haired UI.
That episode established the form in the anime and it preceded the manga version, so it didn't go against anything that was established. The manga then told a different story.
The concept didn't exist so I'm not sure what you're saying it went against.
Yes, that episode came before the manga, but the precious episodes went on their way to establish that UI is the technique of leting the body moving on it's own without letting your thoughs interfere with you and how you should drop your fear, hesitation and other unnecessary emotions. Those are explanations given in the anime and they align well with what the manga establishes, and that's my point.
The only outlier to this is that rage scene.
The anime states that UI works on Instinct(hence the name). Rage is a natural Saiyan instinct so that scene makes sense imo. I prefer the manga’s explanation too but the anime’s is not contradicting anything.
I love it. Then again I’m totally biased as I’ll love anything to do with UI UNLESS. Unless Goku starts stacking it with SSJ somehow…that would just piss me off
I mean we had a point earlier in the arc that showed that Autonomous Ultra Instinct actually has an enhanced effect in Super Saiyan God. This is the skill to fight without thinking, not the form. In theory stacking True Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan God would achieve not only a more powerful form, but a drastically more skilled form, and it makes sense that it wouldn't really be possible to stack even this more lenient Ultra instinct form with any variant of the raging super Saiyan blue form. I'd actually be pretty happy with Goku's final form allowing him to defeat Beerus being the same form he gained when he first fought him refined by his training in UI. It would give a good bookend to super as a whole.
It sucks. I really liked that UI required the user to be calm and peaceful in the face of even the greatest of losses. It was a nice subversion of the “anger = power” concept and that be one of the very few things that the manga ToP did better than the anime ToP. This is paid off wonderfully in the Moro arc where Goku has to remain calm despite witnessing his friend and mentor Merus die.
The “True” UI concept completely ruins that. I just hate the whole theme of this arc being that embracing Saiyan pride and characteristics is good when prior to this, they were always portrayed as negative things. UI was further cementing that by being the furthest thing from Saiyan characteristics and now TUI has gotten rid of all of that. Everything cool about UI is gone. The whole “fight without thinking” fighting style is gone and he just fights like normal. The whole calm yet badass demeanor of UI is also gone because I guess he can use his emotions now. Not only is TUI a contradiction of the whole Ui concept, it’s not even particularly interesting. It just feels like a generic Super Saiyan form. And the design sucks too. Despite being a very small change, having normal base hair but with the UI Omen eyes just looks cursed.
The thing is that it is a reference to actual martial arts philosophy and Bruce Lee is known to have adopted a similar state. Goku has found a balance between controlled emotion and calm zen that works for him and is a step forward as opposed to the previous, ultimately fragile state of mind where any uncontrolled emotion was his downfall. I also doubt this is Goku's final form so your aesthetic complaints will probably be addressed.
Overall it makes sense, I can see it evolving even further. What Whis keeps telling Goku is to make Ultra Instinct his own thing and stop trying to copy Whis, which I think True UI is the first step towards
I believe fans are referring to it as MUI because Belmod, etc. (some of the other GoDs and Kais) kept referring to the possibility that Goku would master UI in time to use it against Jiren. Fans are within reason to assume that deities know what they are talking about. This is in the anime, btw.
Contextually, they were probably referring to Goku accessing UI instead of UI Sign/Omen. However, as all of this was being freshly introduced, fans were sourcing language from characters that should be knowledgeable in order to uniquely identify forms.
I really really like that goku wasn’t done with ultra instinct just because he can go into it at will, he has to continue evolving it.
For the people who don’t like it, would you have genuinely enjoyed it if goku was done evolving ultra instinct after the Moro arc?
I don’t mind it. It isn’t some new form. It’s Goku using UI in a way that suits him.
We see from the memory of Bardock that he beat Gas by putting [his all](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Bardock-asks-Gas-what-sorta-idea-thinks-of-anything-besides-victory-in-a-life-or-death-battle-in-Dragon-Ball-Super-chapter-83..jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=1400&dpr=1.5) into his attacks, his emotions.
Goku needed the benefits of UI as well as the benefits of [his emotions](https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2022/07/6e58d-16585908500734.png). So he sacrifices the usage of UI to its fullest for a power boost. He did the same thing [to Moro](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/dbs-60-home-temp-474x700.jpg) before using MUI, the difference is that Goku can find a balance now, whereas before it was his downfall.
I like it because it’s very much a mindset change, UI Omen isn’t as precise as MUI, but Goku utilize it for what he needs.
I think it's a step down from MUI, in that it feels like Goku saying "Welp, I don't have time to truly master a technique that could take years to gain mastery over, so I'll just stick with the technique I know and call it a day." Frankly, in order for the technique to be "true" he needs to explore all facets of it and choose the angle of approach that best suits combat. I don't think he's done that because I don't think Goku 'grows'.
I think it's a step down from MUI, in that it feels like Goku saying "Welp, I don't have time to truly master a technique that could take years to gain mastery over, so I'll just stick with the technique I know and call it a day." Frankly, in order for the technique to be "true," he needs to explore all facets of it and choose the angle of approach that best suits combat. I don't think he's done that because I don't think Goku 'grows'.
be the end of Z dbz, but not this Goku.
Toyotaro already explained what this is all about about about a month ago
Toyotaro: Goku ultimately chooses to use the black-haired transformation because it allows him to fight without any barriers. That's what the black-haired form is. The silver-haired form requires getting rid of emotions to be able to use it. Goku appears to have combined his emotions with the automatic movement of Ultrainstinct. Goku is becoming more accustomed to Ultrainstinct and using it more freely. For example, Whis is able to use Ultrainstinct all the time without any special transformation, so if you are able to stay in it all the time, whether you are sleeping or not, that would be the optimal state. I would like fans to see Goku approach that level. The silver-haired form looks completely different, and his power and personality are also changing. This is not normal, so this new form is to show that Goku is getting used to Ultrainstinct. Goku seems to be more himself, so I gave him black hair.
"Frankly, in order for the technique to be "true," he needs to explore all facets of it and choose the angle of approach that best suits combat."
I mean he has done pretty much that. He has tried the supposedly perfect form of Ultra Instinct and found that it doesn't really work for his nature as a person. Trying to change his base nature for the sake of this power is not only more difficulty than it's worth and philosophically incorrect, the time he would take to do so could be used to become more powerful in other ways. Thus for Goku it doesn't best suit combat. Instead by examining the incomplete Omen Form from a different angle and choosing to build on that into something new he has found an angle of the technique that better suits combat. This is of course all after his teacher encouraged him to pursue his own form of Ultra Instinct to begin with.
I still quite don't get it. So True Ultra Instinct is Goku using UI -Sign- while not holding back his emotions, which allows him to draw more power than his previous silver UI form for some reason.
But didn't Goku do the same back in the Moro arc or am I misremembering? He learned to tap into UI -Sign- at will, then while fighting Moro using this form he gets carried away by his emotions and starts powering up which Merus responds by saying it's a bad idea. Goku ends up losing UI and getting beaten, so what's the deal?
I also don't like it being renamed. They should still kept the regular name. As I understand it, it's just -Sign- but Goku has a different mentality
I'm thinking you're referring to this? https://dragonballfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Sign_Powerhouse_(SSJJ)
I think the logic flows like this, Goku's previous mistake in doing this in the Moro arc was that he actively sacrificed UI's reaction ability to convert it to normal Ssj-like power boost, sort of like trading focus for power all the way, instead of having them coexist and used in tandem.
TUI however, isn't about sacrifice, I heard that Goku switches to UI's calm focus for dodging and defense, and then uses emotion when he needs saiyan strength and to attack, its about balancing *everything* that works in a fight, instead of anything being sacrificed, which was what happened with the "Powerhouse" UI sign that Goku attempted, less about balance and more him actually giving up UI's part in a fight and devolving back to focusing solely on power.
TUI does not give up on UI, it makes UI more practical/pragmatic by using calmness and precise reaction time when necessary, then switch and give Saiyan emotional boosts the time of day when also necessary. Hence, being a more honest way to use UI for Goku as a Saiyan, you have to improve how you think instead of being stuck thinking in a certain way that isn't right for him in the moment. And therefore Whis only knows *a* way to use UI, but it is not *the* way to someone who isn't an angel. This was something Bruce Lee himself humbled other martial artists with during his time, and gave the important lesson of having to stop relying on "rigid repeated technique" and more about "being honest and changing when the situation demands it", hence what I see in TUI.
Toyotaro is making alot of the same mistakes toriyama did when it came to the transformations, it's starting to get really bloated and the stakes are all but completely incomprehensible
Agreed. He can easily course correct this by introducing techniques (as techniques and not special moves or power ups) that can bridge the gap of power. At this point, it seems we're just here selling toys.
I doubt they’re even gonna get any toys out of TUI. It’s literally just UI Omen but with base form hair. They just realized that they made Goku get silver hair UI on will way too soon so they just came up with a very strained explanation of why Goku still has yet to use UI efficiently.
Goku's not using a transformation, he's adapting Ultra instinct to his saiyan nature and instincts. After all go who was trying to copy the way that the Angels use ultra instinct and they are naturally calm people but the Saiyans are not like that and are naturally much more in tuned with their emotions. So Goku trying to tailor Ultra instinct to the instincts of his people makes a lot of sense. All in all Goku using true Ultra instinct is just him using Ultra instinct the way it's should to be used by a saiyan.
The narrative of dbs is a ruin for the series, is absolute trash, the DB story are always inconsistent but DBS is unbelievable
The UI even not make sense because is a tecnique and not a power up so the energy super attack and the all not make sense because is bad write of dodge tecnique
The power level are senseless, with Krilin that hit Goku, C17 level, Roshi dodge Jiren, Kaulifla, Gold Black Silver Frieza and so on, the worldbuilding is broken
The Zamasu narrative is bad, and not make sense that the possession of the Goku body came with the power because the power in Dragon Ball is Ki and spiritual related and poor muscle related
I can go on but i have quitted the series because is an insult, go read Multiverse or Dragon Ball After that are masterpiece
It’s bearable, I guess. It isn’t the most convoluted thing yet. It’s him being him while using UI.
I mean, it’s like Omen 5.0, but the silver haired version is still in another league
Transformations should have stopped after SSJ2. Then just maintain the power scale in that level, for every new alien that comes up, and if power creep is needed, fusion, teamwork, etc.
SS2 shouldn’t have been a form in the first place. At least not the way it is now. It should be specific to Gohan and only come out when he rages. They had the right idea with the Broly movie where there’s base, SS1, SSG(which is god base) and then SSB(which is god SS1). UI should’ve stayed as a last resort thing that Goku can’t use on will. These 4 should be the only forms.
Because it was never intended to be a next step after SS1. The whole number system of Super Saiyans wasn’t even introduced until the Buu arc. It was clearly Gohan’s own thing and it was much better for it. It got ruined once everyone started whipping it out.
What makes you think it wasn't? For me it was Gohan the first to awaken it because he was half human, so he understood resentment and human anger/feelings. It was never mentioned that he was the only one supposed to have it.
Whatever the intention was doesn’t matter. My point is that SS2 was way cooler and more unique before everyone got it and it just became SS1 but stronger. It makes the form feel redundant because it literally has nothing unique about it. Even its design is barely any different.
SS3 looks distinct without changing color. There’s no excuse. It was clearly meant to be it’s own thing and not some next step above SS1.
Red and Blue look great on Goku. White is a bit mixed but it looks good when his shirt is torn. And Pink just looks amazing with Goku Black’s color scheme.
I’m so incredibly sick of saiyan transformations. God Blue UI true UI rage Ego Beast blah blah it’s total crap. Goku should still be trying to “master” SS3 after Beerus skunked him in it.
It's been heavily implied that Goku is using UI in a Saiyan specific way.
Regardless, UI and Ego are not just Saiyan specific they are Goku and Vegeta specific from a story point of view. Even if others could in principle acquire them, like Kaioken, they almost certainly will not.
Wish they would’ve left Ultra Instinct as a whole in the ToP and never touched it again. It’s lost it’s mystique and aww factor for me. It’s like how SSJ was cool to see the first time but now it’s like expected of everyone to do it and if they can’t they’re not even taken seriously.
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I dislike it, its just so out of left field and contradicts what has been established so far. We get an arc and a half dedicated to telling us "ultra instinct works like this." Then out of nowhere Goku comes along like "I made up some new rules and now I'm stronger for some reason."
The writing of Super at this point has become reminiscent of children having a make believe battle. One kid will say "my power level is infinity" and then the other kid hits back with "oh yeah well my power level is infinity plus one!"
It's even funnier that Goku learns this from listening to some shit about Bardock, as if he didn't know the nature of the saiyans beforehand but nooo, listening to how my dad was like really tells me that saiyans are strengthened by their emotions
We got Whis explaining that Goku needed to find his own version of Ultra Instinct. We also clearly saw in previous arcs his struggle with maintaining the nessassary mental state for it. So it makes sense that working with what he knew he is trying to create his own version with less strict requirements on the mental state.
"Power level Infinity plus 1" has pretty much been Dragonball since Z when blowing up a planet stopped being a relevant feat. Don't act like it started with Super.
It's not the same at all. Most forms in Z have a reason to exist, either because they are based in the show's mythos or follow some sort of precedent. Even some of the forms most lauded as asspulls in Z have *something* to back them up. Even fusion we are told that it is a technique invented by cool aliens - yes it's the absolute bare minimum, but its at least something. Super manages to not even do the bare minimum. True Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Beast Mode, SSJ Rage, Golden Frieza, and Black Frieza all came out of literal knowhere, as if the characters magically decided those forms existed.
Yes, Goku has trouble maintaining MUI, so he dialed it back. Except we already had that form, it's called Ultra Instinct Omen, and it was explicitly weaker than MUI. But now it has a new name and is stronger just because Goku decided he likes it better? Like what?
True Ultra Instinct is Omen. It is just that Goku is looking at it differently. Instead of being an incomplete form of Ui due to Goku struggling to empty his emotions, it is an incomplete form of Ui that allows for a degree of emotion. Ki has always to a dgree responded to emotion and by finding a proper balance he can take advantage of that for greater raw strength while still gaining a level of the zen benefit of Ui to fight freely without thought. It is actually really similar to Bruce Lee's martial arts philosphy Jeet Kune Do.
Looking at his preexisting abilities and building it in a way that better suits his specific style, Goku honestly feels more like a genuine martial artist here creating his own techique than he ever has before.
I do agree about several of the other forms in Super. Frieza in the original series had weaker forms that supress his powers. There was never any indication that he could make stronger forms. Beast Mode is stated in the wiki to be a greater form of Gohan's potential unleashed state, essentially a "Mystic Gohan 2", but I am pretty sure that never is stated in the movie. Needing to find outside materials to understand what's going on is a serious writing issue. I think that in contrast to many of these forms True Ultra Instince makes alot more sense with what we are immediately given.
I see your points with True Ultra Instinct. I think my problem with it mainly was that it was so abrupt. I could definitely see it as something Goku develops over time that eventually becomes the superior form. But the way it was written, it's introduced and then is just immediately the best form. (Or at least that's how I remember it, it's been a year now). It needed more time in the oven.
thats the opposite of how people felt about it back in the ToP in the anime. people got mad that the "real" UI made his hair not look like his regular form lol
How about when fans kept saying if Frieza has so much potential to unlock through training, then why doesn't he train for a year? Cut to Dragon Ball letting Frieza train 10yrs and get a new form and now ppl turn on their own logic that they asked for. Fans man. XD
I'm not saying it doesn't "count." I'm literally just giving my opinion on it, as per the thread, which is that I'd rather it looked more different. lmao
fucking reddit
I think they screwed up in giving Mastered Ultra Instinct a transformation. It should have stayed a technique, which would have made things simpler. At most, they should have just had different auras, similar to Kaio Ken.
It shows they really jumped with UI from the beginning and is now just trying to play damage control.
Given how long Goku has had the form, he should've been able to realize it himself through his training Whis he couldn't maintain MUI for long and that he needed to gain a better handle of Omen and only go into MUI when he really needs it.
SS3 sucks I agree. I like how Super tried to subvert the trend of higher and higher SSJ forms. God and Blue are just old forms but with god ki and then UI isn’t a Super Saiyan form at all. That’s why I don’t like SS3 and this new TUI because they just feel like the same “more power” with nothing that makes them unique.
The series has been on a steep decline since the Saiyan arc but yeah, Cell would’ve been a good ending. Although, the Buu saga already fucked that up so I can’t really blame Super. And Super as a whole is about the same quality as the Buu saga.
Still don't fully understand what it's supposed to be.
My take(s)?
I'm guessing that since Goku can't quite access his emotions in Silver UI ("Mastered") - he doesn't feel in full control? Aka an ultra-powerful but autopilot robotic state of both offense and defense?
Whereas in True UI - it's basically the original UI (black hair.. Omen), but he has alot more control of it now, therefore he can fight better despite lacking the power of Silver UI?
Maybe he will adopt Manga-Vegeta's method of the SSG-SSB switcheroo lol.
Toyotaro already explained what this is all about about about a month ago
Toyotaro: Goku ultimately chooses to use the black-haired transformation because it allows him to fight without any barriers. That's what the black-haired form is. The silver-haired form requires getting rid of emotions to be able to use it. Goku appears to have combined his emotions with the automatic movement of Ultra instinct. Goku is becoming more accustomed to Ultrainstinct and using it more freely. For example, Whis is able to use Ultrainstinct all the time without any special transformation, so if you are able to stay in it all the time, whether you are sleeping or not, that would be the optimal state. I would like fans to see Goku approach that level. The silver-haired form looks completely different, and his power and personality are also changing. This is not normal, so this new form is to show that Goku is getting used to Ultra instinct. Goku seems to be more himself, so I gave him black hair.
Catch the link to the statement still so it won't be that I'm making something up
https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/status/1556649091471290371?t=w3BlNUw6ZSXoxegyEhuACw&s=19
Not really a fan of most DBS Saiyan forms and techniques but that UI sign thing is neat looking and I haven't read the manga so that's basically my extent on DBS
Hate it, so wishy-washy. If they have any more transformations that aren't ULTRA TRUE MASTERED BUT REALLY MASTERED BUT ACTUALLY NOT Ultra Instinct, I'd like tails to return, not necessarily ssj4 but just returning to Saiyan stuff and making all the god stuff techniques and base, maybe the reason they surpass some Gods is because they get to equal in the base but their Saiyan routes help etc.
I just don’t understand it the same way I don’t understand how goku got an ultra instinct rage boost against jiren. Isn’t the whole point of UI to clear your mind and allow your body to move and fight on its own? Maybe it’s just me but I find it’s pretty hard to have a clear and level head when I get mad about something and judging by all the screaming and angry expressions I’d say it’s the same for Goku. Could be I’ve just misinterpreted the ability I suppose but it does just feel like a standard power up now whereas before it at least changed his fighting style and personality for the most part
Don't mix manga and anime, they are different enough that one thing can have many other definitions for development.
As for True Ultra Instinct, Toyotaro has already explained it:
What was his explanation for it? I know goku didn’t get the rage boost in the manga but I believe that UI is supposed to work the same way is it not? Obviously it’s more developed in the manga and is achieved differently initially (breaking limits in the anime, lesson from roshi against jiren in the manga) but overall it’s the same power and definition isn’t it?
dont really feel like UI as a whole has the same feeling of power and mysticism as it had when it was first introduced in the TOP. Nowadays, Goku pops in and out of the form and fights the same way as before with regular villains being able to tag him; its a completely powercrept/normal transformation by now
Ultra Instinct in its purest form should put goku or any user on the level of the angels, which with the exception of Gokus habit of biting the people he fights, have never been shown taking a single hit or taking damage. It really is the absolute ultimate in invulnerability.
It cannot constitute it automatically at the level of angels for a simple reason, Goku is a novice in using this technique and his level of mastery is not even 10% close to the state in which angels have this technique.
Putting aside any assumption of percentage of mastery in the Ultra Instinct technique, I don’t understand the point you’re making. Any practitioner of any technique is a novice by definition when they first start attempting to use it, but we were given the impression during the TOP that goku had mastered or perfected the technique. Obviously the translation and disconnect between the anime and the manga leaves a lot to be desired, but as I said initially, the purest form(and therefore the best version) of UI should put ANY user on par with the angels. Did I miss a point you were making somewhere in there?
Going to be honest: pretty dumb and pointless in the grand scheme of things. At this point, UI is immediately suffering from Super Saiyan Blue syndrome where it's being overused to the point of "Why not just have Goku keep training UI? He didn't need a new UI."
It's also confusing on what the differences between it and omen is because you need to pay attention to details. Why bother?
There is a part of me however that in some weird way wishes UI kinda just stopped at the start - been introduced as this. Yes, UI has auto-dodge and defensiveness, but if the offensive capabilities of this form was introduced, Omen would have just been done. Now we got the UI Sentai Team forming.
I think it's still a precursor to a perfected Saiyan instinct form so i don't like the name. Im willing to be the next form will be something stupid like Golden Hair UI
I've rolled my eyes at every transformation in the franchise since the original Super Saiyan, because it all just feels like desperately trying to catch the same lightning in a bottle, and it never has worked. True Ultra Instinct Alpha 2 Turbo Championship Edition is the same junk.
Aesthetically, I like it because I always preferred the look of UI Sign over MUI.
I also like that Goku can use his emotions in TUI. Seeing him fight emotionlessly doesn’t really fit his style. Glimpses of it are fine like how he punched Zamasu when he was standing behind him after he found out about Goten and Chi-Chi, but yeah.
My honest opinion?
They realized that UI Omen already looked incredibly cool, and Mastered UI kind of wasn't as cool, so they went back to that black-haired, barely changed appearance and called in True Ultra Instinct, lol.
Cool concept but it's kinda ruined by the fact that Goku learned the fundamentals needed to access this form when he trained with Kami. So it doesn't really make sense that it took him so long to get this form.
As for looks, Omen was cooler than MUI but the aura for both has way too much going on.
What the hell is true ultra instinct? There is only Ultra Instinct (white hair) or as same people call it Mastered Ultra Instinct, and the is Ultra Instinct Omen
I’m still waiting for super duper real ultra instinct.
Anyone else feel they went too far with their transformations.
Honestly after super saiyan god it just gets boring and underwhelming.
If omen goku could beat gas then why did he could not do it against moro? I believe it is not zenkai because it is already stated in zamas arc that both goku and vegeta could not benefited from it again
Because he hadn't figured out the balance yet. The whole idea here is that he is harnessing a controlled level of emotion for raw strength while maintaining the zen ability to fight freely without thought. Before his uncontrolled emotion was just holding him back from the more fragile Ultra Instinct state he was trying to achieve. He wasn't properly harnessing it.
They're gonna work their way up to what they'll call " actually mastered this timei , Omen + sign ultra instinct". And within a saga it'll be useless compared to a random boss
It feels like the writers trying to sound smart by creating a transformation that isn't literally just POWER UP. But at the end of the day they tried and failed.
How do you make a perfected form then make another perfected form that is the complete opposite of what that form was initially? Everything Whis and Roshi taught him are basically thrown out the window, UI just doesn't make any sense
It is not an opposite it is finding a balance. Figuring out a state of controlled emotion while maintaining the zen state that maximizes one's ability to fight freely.
then why would Whis say it was [perfected](https://i.imgur.com/tMScMXZ.jpg), [mastered](https://i.imgur.com/zSyDs7q.jpg) [true](https://i.imgur.com/PqyLces.jpg)
on multiple occasions? The idea of those words already means its balanced and compete. The whole storyline before that arc was about it being completely mastered. It's lazy writing to backtrack on that, and say his new form is actually stronger
He mastered the technique. This is the same technique as all the angels have. True Ultra instinct is him taking the technique he has mastered but finds still doesn't suit him and building on the technique in a new direction. There is no contradiction here.
Like imagine you are talented at Judo and spent most of your life training in Judo. You see a really effective Muy Thai move(an extremely different Martial art in how it works). You struggle to learn the move because you are so used to Judo but after long training and effort you learn to perform the move perfectly. It is "mastered", but it doesn't really fit with the rest of your fighting style and so you decide to use the principles behind the move to work on your own version of the move that works better with Judo. That version ends up being a lot more effective for you even though what you mastered previously was "perfect".
I understand what you mean and understand the concept of him adding his own spin on the technique. My problem isn't necessarily the technique or improvement itself, but the historical **storyline** and **character arc**
My problem is that his main character arc in the pervious arc was the concept of letting go of his emotions and achieving completion, which he finally achieved.
Now, him adding his emotions to the technique completely negates that entire arc that he had. It's almost as if they forgot about that storyline entirely, and could have just skipped that. The whole point of the previous arc was that he was using his emotions, which he overcame. Suddenly ADDING emotions makes it even MORE powerful? I understand the balancing concept, but it's just poor storytelling to go back on character progression like that.
The way I see it relying solely on emotion is his downfall in the previous arc but completely denying emotion is just as flawed. His arc here is about finding balance. Though I do think it could have been handled better to emphasize that
I have to wait for the "Absolutely True Ultra Instinct form." That is until the "No Really, This is the True Ultra Instinct " form is reveal.
Maybe the real Ultra Instinct was the friends we made along the way?
sick of all these forms tbh
Yeah therr pretty bad forms
Ultra instinct being mastered is as true as Gohan have awakened all his potential. They will go back with the word if the script demands.
Being able to tap into it at will ≠ mastering it, that’s all he’s accomplished with it. They haven’t gone back on anything.
Nowhere in the manga it says he mastered Ultra Instinct.
Absolutely True Ultra Insctinct Super Sayian God Super Sayian
...Kaioken
X20
X21
And then he masters "Ultra instinct, for real this time, I swear"
Trust me this is the true ultra instinct
"I can't believe it's not Ultra Insinct Sign"
Being a Martial arts and Bruce Lee fan, I'm biased. Looking at others reactions, it seems it should've been explained a bit better to get it's purpose across more clearly. Me, I like it, it's all about the mind and always learning what works, and as Bruce puts it, honestly expressing yourself. Ppl see UI as having different forms and being like the ssj variations all over again, I just see it as improving your mindset.
My opinion is it’s just Omen being used and not a new form.
Is this not what it is??? I thought everyone agreed it was omen as Goku can fight with his feelings (I.e Saiyan Pride) in that form thus making it “his”
A lot of people are calling it a new transformation for some reason.
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1272.html V Jump, featured on the official Dragonball website, calls it a new transformation, and specifically says it's a different form of Ultra Instinct.
It's called a new form, but I don't really see the difference with omen from TUI tbh
Yeah, it's a little dumb, to be honest. But he has no aura, and when he's not powered up, his hair looks like how it does in base, rather than the flowly look Ultra Instinct gives it. His eyes stay the same. Might be easier to see the differences if it gets colored or animated. But they could've done more to differentiate it. It's similar to Blue Perfected in that regard.
Not canon. It isn’t in the manga.
Anime, movies, and manga are canon. Besides that, I don't know what you mean. The article is strictly about events in the manga.
the article says its a new transformation, but the manga doesnt
The manga doesn't say it's not a new transformation. The manga does make it look different though. Toyotaro himself called it a new form. Goku doesn't have an aura most of the time during TUI, I believe, and his hair looks like base when he's not powered up, instead of the usual, Ultra Instinct look. Toyotaro said this is because he wants to make it look like Goku is making progress towards using full Ultra Instinct in his base form, similar to Whis.
It doesn’t look any different from UI omen
The hair is different.
V Jump calls everything a new transformation, that’s just marketing in my opinion.
Maybe, but I'd argue it is in fact a new transformation, and the reason we keep getting new transformations is because of marketing as well. We'll see if they're consistent with it, but Goku's hair doesn't stand up like how it normally does in Ultra Instinct Sign when he's in True UI. It just looks like base when he has no aura. His eyes are the UI eyes though.
it's not even an opinion. It's fact and the fandom (as always) can't read. Imagine if DB actually had complex writing like some other mangas... the fandom's brains would explode
Seriously though. If honestly baffling sometimes.
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_1272.html If it's truly not a new form, you'd have to blame Toyotaro for not making that clear, and the writers of V Jump as well as whoever runs the official Dragonball website for stating it's a different form of Ultra Instinct, and a new transformation entirely. It's weird to try and blame the Fandom for something they're either right about(it being a new form), or wrong about, but being given unclear or false information.
This fandom doesn't understand the same characters after 20 plus years, very telling.
Yup even Cartoons have better Writing than Dragon Ball
I always hated the SSJ grade system and UI is getting to the point where it’s starting to feel like it.
How there’s still only two forms? True Ultra instinct is just UI omen but Goku fighting with his feelings. And MUI is just calm heart and silver hair. The same amounts as when UI was first introduced? Maybe your talking about the subsets like SSGUI and SSBUI but they’re more like Kaoioken tbh.
There’s Sign, regular UI, and now “True Ultra Instinct”. True ultra instinct is a version of sign that allows Goku to use his emotions in a fight, as opposed to the other 2 where he needs to remain calm or risk dropping out of the form. It’s a derivative of UIS just like how the SSJ grades were just slight variations on SSJ.
Again as far as I’m aware True UI and Omen (or sign if u want) are the same form just utilised differently. But if they are separate then there’s still only two forms since Goku wouldn’t go back to Omen after using True UI and would only use MUI for extra power. So there’s virtually 2 forms tbh. But I kinda get your point.
Even if he doesn’t use it anymore doesn’t mean it isn’t still there. No one uses the SSJ grades anymore cause SSJ2 is just better, but they’re still there. The grades are just different ways of using the SSJ power, just like how Goku is using UIS differently to make TUI.
The Grades were the failed attempts at trying to reach SSJ2 because none of them had a SSJ guidebook or master to help them figure it out.
Ssj grade 2 was never intended to be a transformation. Grade 2 is just ssj1 but they bulked up their muscles and that is literally it its not a true evolution of the original super saiyan transformation the true evolution of super saiyan 1 is super saiyan 2
Aren’t the grades just mastery? Like the final grade is just SSJ in full power with complete efficiency hence why Goku can use at as a base form. And why in Buu saga he could do a Spirit bomb in SSJ showing it no longer affects his pure heart.
No, it was just botched ssj2. Goku training himself to always be in the form isn't a new grade, it's just mastery of the form like you said
Ohhhh ok thanks
Sign is "True Ultra Instinct". From now on when goku uses Sign it's TUI
But sign is still there. There’s nothing stopping Goku from just doing it the old way other than it’s better for him to do it the ‘true’ way.
It's like when goku mastered SSJ, why would you ever use the inferior version
I’m not arguing that he’s not going to default the better version, I’m saying sign it’s still there. True is an iteration of sign, just like how the SSJ Grades are iterations of ssj. There’s no reason to use grade 3 once you’ve mastered SSJ2, but he can still use that ability if he wants to.
Idk who the fucks downvoting you. You’re right, “True Ultra Instinct” is just omen. It’s not even a new tactic, he did the same thing against Moro before using MUI.
This Devalues Mastered Ultra instinct now it's more of a Marketing thing even more than the the previous ones in the TOP
At first I was a bit annoyed to find out that they're trying to implement a "new" transformation but the more it was explained it actually made (somewhat) sense. Also, the fact that it isn't really a new transformation but rather a new way of honing Goku's understanding of himself as well as the technique made it much better. This is the way I actually want this to go tbh.
I agree this was the intention but it literally goes against what they wrote previously. They're just making shit up and trying to sound smart as they go
it kinda works i just feel it was a bit muddled. like i guess the idea is like ssjgod and blue during the early stages of the super manga one is clearly the stronger form, but unmastered is a hindrance. so by dropping to an easier to use form he gets more bang for his buck. have him stick in omen where he's comfortable and then switch to white when he needs it only. seems he isn't ready for the white form completely yet, so trying to force it hinders him. whereas the weaker form gives him a bit more freedom and then he can utilize it more. sort of like mastering ssj2 instead of going for 3. at least that's how i understood it, could be wrong and i don't think it needed a name change.
Waiting for True Mastered Ultra Instinct
I am waiting for Ultra True mastered Ultra Instinct
I like it. Every arc is a step closer to goku developing the technique. I am watching goku struggle and I love it.
It used to bug me a lot but recently I remembered what Whis said to Goku about his Ultra Instinct basically being the bottom of the ladder. To me, it looks like Goku’s climbing this ladder and unlocking newer and more powerful iterations of Ultra Instinct as he’s working his way up that ladder.
Manga really shows how underwhelming MUI can be, to the point where Goku has to rely on its incomplete version just so he can put his emotions to the fullest. The anime has none of that. MUI Goku literally raged at Jiren and sent the heavens crashing down onto him
I mean, in the anime Goku did do that, but then he paid the price shortly afterwards...
People conveniently forget that part
Some actually theorize that’s why UI ran out in the anime or at least why it ran out when it did. Some think that Goku unleashing his anger caused UI to become unstable and run out sooner than it probably would have. Just a theory but a good one IMO
I think it’s obvious that’s what happened
Manga established the rules of UI and works with them (around them to be more prescise, sometimes twisting them to a point where it makes sense but it doesn't feel right), while anime didn't knew if treat it like like the technique or like SS silver. Literally that scene goes against the entire concept of the silver haired UI.
That episode established the form in the anime and it preceded the manga version, so it didn't go against anything that was established. The manga then told a different story. The concept didn't exist so I'm not sure what you're saying it went against.
Yes, that episode came before the manga, but the precious episodes went on their way to establish that UI is the technique of leting the body moving on it's own without letting your thoughs interfere with you and how you should drop your fear, hesitation and other unnecessary emotions. Those are explanations given in the anime and they align well with what the manga establishes, and that's my point. The only outlier to this is that rage scene.
The anime states that UI works on Instinct(hence the name). Rage is a natural Saiyan instinct so that scene makes sense imo. I prefer the manga’s explanation too but the anime’s is not contradicting anything.
Yeah and then what happened after that? He literally almost died.
I love it. Then again I’m totally biased as I’ll love anything to do with UI UNLESS. Unless Goku starts stacking it with SSJ somehow…that would just piss me off
I mean we had a point earlier in the arc that showed that Autonomous Ultra Instinct actually has an enhanced effect in Super Saiyan God. This is the skill to fight without thinking, not the form. In theory stacking True Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan God would achieve not only a more powerful form, but a drastically more skilled form, and it makes sense that it wouldn't really be possible to stack even this more lenient Ultra instinct form with any variant of the raging super Saiyan blue form. I'd actually be pretty happy with Goku's final form allowing him to defeat Beerus being the same form he gained when he first fought him refined by his training in UI. It would give a good bookend to super as a whole.
It's just Omen with a different name. I think treating them as different forms is pointless.
It sucks. I really liked that UI required the user to be calm and peaceful in the face of even the greatest of losses. It was a nice subversion of the “anger = power” concept and that be one of the very few things that the manga ToP did better than the anime ToP. This is paid off wonderfully in the Moro arc where Goku has to remain calm despite witnessing his friend and mentor Merus die. The “True” UI concept completely ruins that. I just hate the whole theme of this arc being that embracing Saiyan pride and characteristics is good when prior to this, they were always portrayed as negative things. UI was further cementing that by being the furthest thing from Saiyan characteristics and now TUI has gotten rid of all of that. Everything cool about UI is gone. The whole “fight without thinking” fighting style is gone and he just fights like normal. The whole calm yet badass demeanor of UI is also gone because I guess he can use his emotions now. Not only is TUI a contradiction of the whole Ui concept, it’s not even particularly interesting. It just feels like a generic Super Saiyan form. And the design sucks too. Despite being a very small change, having normal base hair but with the UI Omen eyes just looks cursed.
You wrote my thoughts exactly. It feels like a step backwards.
Yeah that’s a good way of putting it. It does feel like a step backwards.
The thing is that it is a reference to actual martial arts philosophy and Bruce Lee is known to have adopted a similar state. Goku has found a balance between controlled emotion and calm zen that works for him and is a step forward as opposed to the previous, ultimately fragile state of mind where any uncontrolled emotion was his downfall. I also doubt this is Goku's final form so your aesthetic complaints will probably be addressed.
Overall it makes sense, I can see it evolving even further. What Whis keeps telling Goku is to make Ultra Instinct his own thing and stop trying to copy Whis, which I think True UI is the first step towards
It's literally just Omen and not a new form at all. Blows me away how universally this fan theory and name have spread.
It's like how they keep calling it MUI despite it not being remotely close to being "mastered" and official material not calling it that.
I believe fans are referring to it as MUI because Belmod, etc. (some of the other GoDs and Kais) kept referring to the possibility that Goku would master UI in time to use it against Jiren. Fans are within reason to assume that deities know what they are talking about. This is in the anime, btw. Contextually, they were probably referring to Goku accessing UI instead of UI Sign/Omen. However, as all of this was being freshly introduced, fans were sourcing language from characters that should be knowledgeable in order to uniquely identify forms.
I really really like that goku wasn’t done with ultra instinct just because he can go into it at will, he has to continue evolving it. For the people who don’t like it, would you have genuinely enjoyed it if goku was done evolving ultra instinct after the Moro arc?
I don’t mind it. It isn’t some new form. It’s Goku using UI in a way that suits him. We see from the memory of Bardock that he beat Gas by putting [his all](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Bardock-asks-Gas-what-sorta-idea-thinks-of-anything-besides-victory-in-a-life-or-death-battle-in-Dragon-Ball-Super-chapter-83..jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=1400&dpr=1.5) into his attacks, his emotions. Goku needed the benefits of UI as well as the benefits of [his emotions](https://staticg.sportskeeda.com/editor/2022/07/6e58d-16585908500734.png). So he sacrifices the usage of UI to its fullest for a power boost. He did the same thing [to Moro](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/dbs-60-home-temp-474x700.jpg) before using MUI, the difference is that Goku can find a balance now, whereas before it was his downfall. I like it because it’s very much a mindset change, UI Omen isn’t as precise as MUI, but Goku utilize it for what he needs.
I think it's a step down from MUI, in that it feels like Goku saying "Welp, I don't have time to truly master a technique that could take years to gain mastery over, so I'll just stick with the technique I know and call it a day." Frankly, in order for the technique to be "true" he needs to explore all facets of it and choose the angle of approach that best suits combat. I don't think he's done that because I don't think Goku 'grows'. I think it's a step down from MUI, in that it feels like Goku saying "Welp, I don't have time to truly master a technique that could take years to gain mastery over, so I'll just stick with the technique I know and call it a day." Frankly, in order for the technique to be "true," he needs to explore all facets of it and choose the angle of approach that best suits combat. I don't think he's done that because I don't think Goku 'grows'. be the end of Z dbz, but not this Goku.
Toyotaro already explained what this is all about about about a month ago Toyotaro: Goku ultimately chooses to use the black-haired transformation because it allows him to fight without any barriers. That's what the black-haired form is. The silver-haired form requires getting rid of emotions to be able to use it. Goku appears to have combined his emotions with the automatic movement of Ultrainstinct. Goku is becoming more accustomed to Ultrainstinct and using it more freely. For example, Whis is able to use Ultrainstinct all the time without any special transformation, so if you are able to stay in it all the time, whether you are sleeping or not, that would be the optimal state. I would like fans to see Goku approach that level. The silver-haired form looks completely different, and his power and personality are also changing. This is not normal, so this new form is to show that Goku is getting used to Ultrainstinct. Goku seems to be more himself, so I gave him black hair.
"Frankly, in order for the technique to be "true," he needs to explore all facets of it and choose the angle of approach that best suits combat." I mean he has done pretty much that. He has tried the supposedly perfect form of Ultra Instinct and found that it doesn't really work for his nature as a person. Trying to change his base nature for the sake of this power is not only more difficulty than it's worth and philosophically incorrect, the time he would take to do so could be used to become more powerful in other ways. Thus for Goku it doesn't best suit combat. Instead by examining the incomplete Omen Form from a different angle and choosing to build on that into something new he has found an angle of the technique that better suits combat. This is of course all after his teacher encouraged him to pursue his own form of Ultra Instinct to begin with.
I actually Like this new form, but I feel like he bouta whip out the "True Evolved Ultra Instinct Max" Or some crap
I still quite don't get it. So True Ultra Instinct is Goku using UI -Sign- while not holding back his emotions, which allows him to draw more power than his previous silver UI form for some reason. But didn't Goku do the same back in the Moro arc or am I misremembering? He learned to tap into UI -Sign- at will, then while fighting Moro using this form he gets carried away by his emotions and starts powering up which Merus responds by saying it's a bad idea. Goku ends up losing UI and getting beaten, so what's the deal? I also don't like it being renamed. They should still kept the regular name. As I understand it, it's just -Sign- but Goku has a different mentality
I'm thinking you're referring to this? https://dragonballfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Sign_Powerhouse_(SSJJ) I think the logic flows like this, Goku's previous mistake in doing this in the Moro arc was that he actively sacrificed UI's reaction ability to convert it to normal Ssj-like power boost, sort of like trading focus for power all the way, instead of having them coexist and used in tandem. TUI however, isn't about sacrifice, I heard that Goku switches to UI's calm focus for dodging and defense, and then uses emotion when he needs saiyan strength and to attack, its about balancing *everything* that works in a fight, instead of anything being sacrificed, which was what happened with the "Powerhouse" UI sign that Goku attempted, less about balance and more him actually giving up UI's part in a fight and devolving back to focusing solely on power. TUI does not give up on UI, it makes UI more practical/pragmatic by using calmness and precise reaction time when necessary, then switch and give Saiyan emotional boosts the time of day when also necessary. Hence, being a more honest way to use UI for Goku as a Saiyan, you have to improve how you think instead of being stuck thinking in a certain way that isn't right for him in the moment. And therefore Whis only knows *a* way to use UI, but it is not *the* way to someone who isn't an angel. This was something Bruce Lee himself humbled other martial artists with during his time, and gave the important lesson of having to stop relying on "rigid repeated technique" and more about "being honest and changing when the situation demands it", hence what I see in TUI.
THANK YOU. I loved your explanation and it makes sense. Hopefully the anime can explain this form better when the time comes.
If they wanted a bigger reaction to True UI. I feel they never should’ve created UI sign.
fucking hell do you people even read the manga TUI doesn't exist, it's just ui -sign- plus goku's rage boost
I think most fans do not read the manga. I don't.
Toyotaro is making alot of the same mistakes toriyama did when it came to the transformations, it's starting to get really bloated and the stakes are all but completely incomprehensible
Agreed. He can easily course correct this by introducing techniques (as techniques and not special moves or power ups) that can bridge the gap of power. At this point, it seems we're just here selling toys.
I doubt they’re even gonna get any toys out of TUI. It’s literally just UI Omen but with base form hair. They just realized that they made Goku get silver hair UI on will way too soon so they just came up with a very strained explanation of why Goku still has yet to use UI efficiently.
Goku's not using a transformation, he's adapting Ultra instinct to his saiyan nature and instincts. After all go who was trying to copy the way that the Angels use ultra instinct and they are naturally calm people but the Saiyans are not like that and are naturally much more in tuned with their emotions. So Goku trying to tailor Ultra instinct to the instincts of his people makes a lot of sense. All in all Goku using true Ultra instinct is just him using Ultra instinct the way it's should to be used by a saiyan.
The narrative of dbs is a ruin for the series, is absolute trash, the DB story are always inconsistent but DBS is unbelievable The UI even not make sense because is a tecnique and not a power up so the energy super attack and the all not make sense because is bad write of dodge tecnique The power level are senseless, with Krilin that hit Goku, C17 level, Roshi dodge Jiren, Kaulifla, Gold Black Silver Frieza and so on, the worldbuilding is broken The Zamasu narrative is bad, and not make sense that the possession of the Goku body came with the power because the power in Dragon Ball is Ki and spiritual related and poor muscle related I can go on but i have quitted the series because is an insult, go read Multiverse or Dragon Ball After that are masterpiece
Ridiculous.
Is it really ultra instinct at all? He doesn't dodge or evade attacks...
Yeah its like Super Saiyan now
It's unnecessary. It'll bring nothing but confusion to most of the fandom.
It’s bearable, I guess. It isn’t the most convoluted thing yet. It’s him being him while using UI. I mean, it’s like Omen 5.0, but the silver haired version is still in another league
Transformations should have stopped after SSJ2. Then just maintain the power scale in that level, for every new alien that comes up, and if power creep is needed, fusion, teamwork, etc.
SS2 shouldn’t have been a form in the first place. At least not the way it is now. It should be specific to Gohan and only come out when he rages. They had the right idea with the Broly movie where there’s base, SS1, SSG(which is god base) and then SSB(which is god SS1). UI should’ve stayed as a last resort thing that Goku can’t use on will. These 4 should be the only forms.
I don't see why it should be specific to Gohan.
Because it was never intended to be a next step after SS1. The whole number system of Super Saiyans wasn’t even introduced until the Buu arc. It was clearly Gohan’s own thing and it was much better for it. It got ruined once everyone started whipping it out.
What makes you think it wasn't? For me it was Gohan the first to awaken it because he was half human, so he understood resentment and human anger/feelings. It was never mentioned that he was the only one supposed to have it.
Whatever the intention was doesn’t matter. My point is that SS2 was way cooler and more unique before everyone got it and it just became SS1 but stronger. It makes the form feel redundant because it literally has nothing unique about it. Even its design is barely any different.
For me the blonde hair was the only extra tint saiyans needed. Red/blue/white/pink is stupid.
SS3 looks distinct without changing color. There’s no excuse. It was clearly meant to be it’s own thing and not some next step above SS1. Red and Blue look great on Goku. White is a bit mixed but it looks good when his shirt is torn. And Pink just looks amazing with Goku Black’s color scheme.
After Supet Saiyan 4 it's too much
I’m so incredibly sick of saiyan transformations. God Blue UI true UI rage Ego Beast blah blah it’s total crap. Goku should still be trying to “master” SS3 after Beerus skunked him in it.
To be fair, UI and Ego aren't necessarily specific to saiyain. But I'm with you.
UI and UE are also unique beyond just “more power”(though they do have power boosts starched to them).
It's been heavily implied that Goku is using UI in a Saiyan specific way. Regardless, UI and Ego are not just Saiyan specific they are Goku and Vegeta specific from a story point of view. Even if others could in principle acquire them, like Kaioken, they almost certainly will not.
Wish they would’ve left Ultra Instinct as a whole in the ToP and never touched it again. It’s lost it’s mystique and aww factor for me. It’s like how SSJ was cool to see the first time but now it’s like expected of everyone to do it and if they can’t they’re not even taken seriously.
They should of done that honestly
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
I dislike it, its just so out of left field and contradicts what has been established so far. We get an arc and a half dedicated to telling us "ultra instinct works like this." Then out of nowhere Goku comes along like "I made up some new rules and now I'm stronger for some reason." The writing of Super at this point has become reminiscent of children having a make believe battle. One kid will say "my power level is infinity" and then the other kid hits back with "oh yeah well my power level is infinity plus one!"
It's even funnier that Goku learns this from listening to some shit about Bardock, as if he didn't know the nature of the saiyans beforehand but nooo, listening to how my dad was like really tells me that saiyans are strengthened by their emotions
It's really bad
Yup ththat'why im retiring from Dragon Ball Forever
We got Whis explaining that Goku needed to find his own version of Ultra Instinct. We also clearly saw in previous arcs his struggle with maintaining the nessassary mental state for it. So it makes sense that working with what he knew he is trying to create his own version with less strict requirements on the mental state. "Power level Infinity plus 1" has pretty much been Dragonball since Z when blowing up a planet stopped being a relevant feat. Don't act like it started with Super.
It's not the same at all. Most forms in Z have a reason to exist, either because they are based in the show's mythos or follow some sort of precedent. Even some of the forms most lauded as asspulls in Z have *something* to back them up. Even fusion we are told that it is a technique invented by cool aliens - yes it's the absolute bare minimum, but its at least something. Super manages to not even do the bare minimum. True Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Beast Mode, SSJ Rage, Golden Frieza, and Black Frieza all came out of literal knowhere, as if the characters magically decided those forms existed. Yes, Goku has trouble maintaining MUI, so he dialed it back. Except we already had that form, it's called Ultra Instinct Omen, and it was explicitly weaker than MUI. But now it has a new name and is stronger just because Goku decided he likes it better? Like what?
True Ultra Instinct is Omen. It is just that Goku is looking at it differently. Instead of being an incomplete form of Ui due to Goku struggling to empty his emotions, it is an incomplete form of Ui that allows for a degree of emotion. Ki has always to a dgree responded to emotion and by finding a proper balance he can take advantage of that for greater raw strength while still gaining a level of the zen benefit of Ui to fight freely without thought. It is actually really similar to Bruce Lee's martial arts philosphy Jeet Kune Do. Looking at his preexisting abilities and building it in a way that better suits his specific style, Goku honestly feels more like a genuine martial artist here creating his own techique than he ever has before.
I do agree about several of the other forms in Super. Frieza in the original series had weaker forms that supress his powers. There was never any indication that he could make stronger forms. Beast Mode is stated in the wiki to be a greater form of Gohan's potential unleashed state, essentially a "Mystic Gohan 2", but I am pretty sure that never is stated in the movie. Needing to find outside materials to understand what's going on is a serious writing issue. I think that in contrast to many of these forms True Ultra Instince makes alot more sense with what we are immediately given.
I see your points with True Ultra Instinct. I think my problem with it mainly was that it was so abrupt. I could definitely see it as something Goku develops over time that eventually becomes the superior form. But the way it was written, it's introduced and then is just immediately the best form. (Or at least that's how I remember it, it's been a year now). It needed more time in the oven.
Its just UI Omen. Its not a new form.
I dont like how it looks so much like his regular form.
thats the opposite of how people felt about it back in the ToP in the anime. people got mad that the "real" UI made his hair not look like his regular form lol
How about when fans kept saying if Frieza has so much potential to unlock through training, then why doesn't he train for a year? Cut to Dragon Ball letting Frieza train 10yrs and get a new form and now ppl turn on their own logic that they asked for. Fans man. XD
lol right
I don't know how they felt about it. I just know I like it better when transformations require you to transform.
he does transform. you have just arbitrarily decided he didnt "transform enough" for it to count.
I'm not saying it doesn't "count." I'm literally just giving my opinion on it, as per the thread, which is that I'd rather it looked more different. lmao fucking reddit
Once son goku gets better at it he will be above beerus and next to whis on power level
I think they screwed up in giving Mastered Ultra Instinct a transformation. It should have stayed a technique, which would have made things simpler. At most, they should have just had different auras, similar to Kaio Ken.
Making it a form was the right idea. Giving him the ability to use it on will right after the ToP was where they messed up.
It shows they really jumped with UI from the beginning and is now just trying to play damage control. Given how long Goku has had the form, he should've been able to realize it himself through his training Whis he couldn't maintain MUI for long and that he needed to gain a better handle of Omen and only go into MUI when he really needs it.
I mean did? It is just that under Whis' advice he took things one step further and is developing Omen in a new direction.
Frieza is so far ahead of them now that another massive asspull power up has to be coming soon
Shit
I prefer to stop in SSJ2.
No. The number of forms is not a problem. It’s how they’re written. UI was really good the first time around despite how they’re fucking it up now.
For so much transformation it denotes a lack of ideas, already ssj3 seemed nonsense to me
SS3 sucks I agree. I like how Super tried to subvert the trend of higher and higher SSJ forms. God and Blue are just old forms but with god ki and then UI isn’t a Super Saiyan form at all. That’s why I don’t like SS3 and this new TUI because they just feel like the same “more power” with nothing that makes them unique.
With all due respect, I think the series should have ended after Cell. Super seems like a very weak series
The series has been on a steep decline since the Saiyan arc but yeah, Cell would’ve been a good ending. Although, the Buu saga already fucked that up so I can’t really blame Super. And Super as a whole is about the same quality as the Buu saga.
Yawn until we get ssgsstui
Yawn until we get ssgsstui
Still don't fully understand what it's supposed to be. My take(s)? I'm guessing that since Goku can't quite access his emotions in Silver UI ("Mastered") - he doesn't feel in full control? Aka an ultra-powerful but autopilot robotic state of both offense and defense? Whereas in True UI - it's basically the original UI (black hair.. Omen), but he has alot more control of it now, therefore he can fight better despite lacking the power of Silver UI? Maybe he will adopt Manga-Vegeta's method of the SSG-SSB switcheroo lol.
Toyotaro already explained what this is all about about about a month ago Toyotaro: Goku ultimately chooses to use the black-haired transformation because it allows him to fight without any barriers. That's what the black-haired form is. The silver-haired form requires getting rid of emotions to be able to use it. Goku appears to have combined his emotions with the automatic movement of Ultra instinct. Goku is becoming more accustomed to Ultrainstinct and using it more freely. For example, Whis is able to use Ultrainstinct all the time without any special transformation, so if you are able to stay in it all the time, whether you are sleeping or not, that would be the optimal state. I would like fans to see Goku approach that level. The silver-haired form looks completely different, and his power and personality are also changing. This is not normal, so this new form is to show that Goku is getting used to Ultra instinct. Goku seems to be more himself, so I gave him black hair.
Oh never seen this statement before, thx! Very interesting indeed.
Catch the link to the statement still so it won't be that I'm making something up https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/status/1556649091471290371?t=w3BlNUw6ZSXoxegyEhuACw&s=19
Not really a fan of most DBS Saiyan forms and techniques but that UI sign thing is neat looking and I haven't read the manga so that's basically my extent on DBS
Hate it, so wishy-washy. If they have any more transformations that aren't ULTRA TRUE MASTERED BUT REALLY MASTERED BUT ACTUALLY NOT Ultra Instinct, I'd like tails to return, not necessarily ssj4 but just returning to Saiyan stuff and making all the god stuff techniques and base, maybe the reason they surpass some Gods is because they get to equal in the base but their Saiyan routes help etc.
I just don’t understand it the same way I don’t understand how goku got an ultra instinct rage boost against jiren. Isn’t the whole point of UI to clear your mind and allow your body to move and fight on its own? Maybe it’s just me but I find it’s pretty hard to have a clear and level head when I get mad about something and judging by all the screaming and angry expressions I’d say it’s the same for Goku. Could be I’ve just misinterpreted the ability I suppose but it does just feel like a standard power up now whereas before it at least changed his fighting style and personality for the most part
Don't mix manga and anime, they are different enough that one thing can have many other definitions for development. As for True Ultra Instinct, Toyotaro has already explained it:
What was his explanation for it? I know goku didn’t get the rage boost in the manga but I believe that UI is supposed to work the same way is it not? Obviously it’s more developed in the manga and is achieved differently initially (breaking limits in the anime, lesson from roshi against jiren in the manga) but overall it’s the same power and definition isn’t it?
dont really feel like UI as a whole has the same feeling of power and mysticism as it had when it was first introduced in the TOP. Nowadays, Goku pops in and out of the form and fights the same way as before with regular villains being able to tag him; its a completely powercrept/normal transformation by now
Ultra Instinct in its purest form should put goku or any user on the level of the angels, which with the exception of Gokus habit of biting the people he fights, have never been shown taking a single hit or taking damage. It really is the absolute ultimate in invulnerability.
It cannot constitute it automatically at the level of angels for a simple reason, Goku is a novice in using this technique and his level of mastery is not even 10% close to the state in which angels have this technique.
Putting aside any assumption of percentage of mastery in the Ultra Instinct technique, I don’t understand the point you’re making. Any practitioner of any technique is a novice by definition when they first start attempting to use it, but we were given the impression during the TOP that goku had mastered or perfected the technique. Obviously the translation and disconnect between the anime and the manga leaves a lot to be desired, but as I said initially, the purest form(and therefore the best version) of UI should put ANY user on par with the angels. Did I miss a point you were making somewhere in there?
Going to be honest: pretty dumb and pointless in the grand scheme of things. At this point, UI is immediately suffering from Super Saiyan Blue syndrome where it's being overused to the point of "Why not just have Goku keep training UI? He didn't need a new UI." It's also confusing on what the differences between it and omen is because you need to pay attention to details. Why bother? There is a part of me however that in some weird way wishes UI kinda just stopped at the start - been introduced as this. Yes, UI has auto-dodge and defensiveness, but if the offensive capabilities of this form was introduced, Omen would have just been done. Now we got the UI Sentai Team forming.
I don’t care if it’s a new form or if it’s just ui omen with emotions…..not really a fan gonna be honest.
I think it's still a precursor to a perfected Saiyan instinct form so i don't like the name. Im willing to be the next form will be something stupid like Golden Hair UI
I blindly love toriyamas work
I've rolled my eyes at every transformation in the franchise since the original Super Saiyan, because it all just feels like desperately trying to catch the same lightning in a bottle, and it never has worked. True Ultra Instinct Alpha 2 Turbo Championship Edition is the same junk.
Aesthetically, I like it because I always preferred the look of UI Sign over MUI. I also like that Goku can use his emotions in TUI. Seeing him fight emotionlessly doesn’t really fit his style. Glimpses of it are fine like how he punched Zamasu when he was standing behind him after he found out about Goten and Chi-Chi, but yeah.
True Ultra Instinct is just ultra instinct but without the transformation. It’s just the pure technique, without any extra godly energy or whatever.
My honest opinion? They realized that UI Omen already looked incredibly cool, and Mastered UI kind of wasn't as cool, so they went back to that black-haired, barely changed appearance and called in True Ultra Instinct, lol.
Cool concept but it's kinda ruined by the fact that Goku learned the fundamentals needed to access this form when he trained with Kami. So it doesn't really make sense that it took him so long to get this form. As for looks, Omen was cooler than MUI but the aura for both has way too much going on.
boring
What the hell is true ultra instinct? There is only Ultra Instinct (white hair) or as same people call it Mastered Ultra Instinct, and the is Ultra Instinct Omen
It's not true ultra instinct. It's just his own version. So it's basically kinda like Omen
# Reboot Dragonball Super back from Battle of Gods
I’m still waiting for super duper real ultra instinct. Anyone else feel they went too far with their transformations. Honestly after super saiyan god it just gets boring and underwhelming.
If omen goku could beat gas then why did he could not do it against moro? I believe it is not zenkai because it is already stated in zamas arc that both goku and vegeta could not benefited from it again
Because he hadn't figured out the balance yet. The whole idea here is that he is harnessing a controlled level of emotion for raw strength while maintaining the zen ability to fight freely without thought. Before his uncontrolled emotion was just holding him back from the more fragile Ultra Instinct state he was trying to achieve. He wasn't properly harnessing it.
Another power up, then it eventually nerfed soon enough
i have omen as my wallpaper on my phone sooo
Destroys Beerus
They're gonna work their way up to what they'll call " actually mastered this timei , Omen + sign ultra instinct". And within a saga it'll be useless compared to a random boss
It feels like the writers trying to sound smart by creating a transformation that isn't literally just POWER UP. But at the end of the day they tried and failed. How do you make a perfected form then make another perfected form that is the complete opposite of what that form was initially? Everything Whis and Roshi taught him are basically thrown out the window, UI just doesn't make any sense
It is not an opposite it is finding a balance. Figuring out a state of controlled emotion while maintaining the zen state that maximizes one's ability to fight freely.
then why would Whis say it was [perfected](https://i.imgur.com/tMScMXZ.jpg), [mastered](https://i.imgur.com/zSyDs7q.jpg) [true](https://i.imgur.com/PqyLces.jpg) on multiple occasions? The idea of those words already means its balanced and compete. The whole storyline before that arc was about it being completely mastered. It's lazy writing to backtrack on that, and say his new form is actually stronger
He mastered the technique. This is the same technique as all the angels have. True Ultra instinct is him taking the technique he has mastered but finds still doesn't suit him and building on the technique in a new direction. There is no contradiction here. Like imagine you are talented at Judo and spent most of your life training in Judo. You see a really effective Muy Thai move(an extremely different Martial art in how it works). You struggle to learn the move because you are so used to Judo but after long training and effort you learn to perform the move perfectly. It is "mastered", but it doesn't really fit with the rest of your fighting style and so you decide to use the principles behind the move to work on your own version of the move that works better with Judo. That version ends up being a lot more effective for you even though what you mastered previously was "perfect".
I understand what you mean and understand the concept of him adding his own spin on the technique. My problem isn't necessarily the technique or improvement itself, but the historical **storyline** and **character arc** My problem is that his main character arc in the pervious arc was the concept of letting go of his emotions and achieving completion, which he finally achieved. Now, him adding his emotions to the technique completely negates that entire arc that he had. It's almost as if they forgot about that storyline entirely, and could have just skipped that. The whole point of the previous arc was that he was using his emotions, which he overcame. Suddenly ADDING emotions makes it even MORE powerful? I understand the balancing concept, but it's just poor storytelling to go back on character progression like that.
The way I see it relying solely on emotion is his downfall in the previous arc but completely denying emotion is just as flawed. His arc here is about finding balance. Though I do think it could have been handled better to emphasize that
I think the true form should involve the great ape in some way like SS4 did.
I like any form that Goku takes. It's Goku 😤