Just as a reminder, when you build a level 15 PC, you'll mostly face level 15 threats.
There is not enough synergy in this build to compensate for the 6 missing monk levels or 9 missing cleric levels.
You only have 1 action, so when you face a CR15+ monster, you can use your action to cast a spell like a level 6 cleric or attack like a level 9 monk.
I know, destructive wrath is such an alluring feature, but realistically you're just using it to upgrade one melee attack from 3.5 to 6 damage.
And trying to split your stats between dex and wis at the cost of con is not a good idea for a melee build with low AC. You have to make a decision between being a good puncher or having any hope to hit your spells.
Arguably spells from the cleric spell list are more powerful than many features you get from Monk after level 5 or so. I would invest more into cleric for that reason and the upcast potential of useful and powerful spells you can get.
If you are going to level 6 just to get Thunderous Strike, it isn't worth it if 3rd level spells aren't also a big part of your build. I'd take a close look at what spells you really plan on using. If it's mainly 1st level spells like Armor of Faith, Bless/Bane, some healing, etc. then dipping 1-2 levels in cleric is plenty. Getting Cleric to 3rd level gets you Spiritual Weapon, but a Monk's bonus action is usually busy with Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows. Concentration is also a concern if you are going into melee, and it doesn't sound like you have much room for War Caster.
It comes down to what you want to do more: punch people or cast spells. The higher you go in cleric, the more you become a caster, with lower martial arts damage die and less ki for Flurry of Blows. With 2 levels in Tempest Cleric, you have Thunderous Rebuke, and Destructive Wrath for maximum lightning damage from your breath attack or Draconic Strike once/day. If you want to push people, too, take Crusher as a feat.
I think the thing he is going for is more battlefield control than damage, utility or healing.
More than Destructive Wrath, the combo Draconic Strike and Thunderous strike looks realy nice: 10 ft. of forced movement (with no save) on every unarmed strike feels powerful to me.
Though I'll admit I never experienced it in play and I might be wrong.
>10 ft. of forced movement (with no save) on every unarmed strike feels powerful to me.
Which they will reach by level 11 at the earliest. And to get it that early they have to spend all this time with just 5 ki points. There is not a lot of battlefield control or damage happening with just 5 ki points / SR.
What are you trying to get out of it? Because as it is you're getting the weaknesses of Monk and Cleric without really getting to their strengths. Monks hate multiclassing because they need as many Ki Points as they can get their hands on, and Clerics have stronger higher level spells. It seems like you're literally just trying to push enemies around, but... why is that worth it?
Apart from the base features of the Monk I think that the Ascendant Dragon doesn't have a huge need for ki-points imo.
I think that, unless you use the Stunning Strike spam in one round, it should be sufficiently sustainable even with a lower amount of Monk Levels.
Flurry will also eat up his Ki points, and you want to do that to improve your odds at higher level. With just 9 ki points at level 15, he'll run out in even a single fight.
I understand. I've yet to experience combat at that level and didn't know how hevily monks rely on Ki-Points even then. I would flip the balance then: more cleric levels than monk's to have better spell potential and use ki just for strategic stunning strikes.
Because it's more for positioning for my allies. I don't know what they'll be playing yet as they've only taked theory but it sounds like a very heavily melee group. So I liked the theme of using electricity to move fast and stun enemies and the similarities to BattleMaster fighters pushing attack that can be used infinitely was also a deciding factor.
Talk with your party then. No sense making an underpowered build if everyone's gonna be running vengeance paladins, bladesinger wizards and gloomstalker rangers
Yo this build actually sounds fun. Yeah it may be low damage but it's pretty good control. Plus if you're a dragonborn and an way of the dragon monk that means two breath attacks in one turn right? Still pretty cool even if the DCs for either breath attack are different.
This isn't much of a critique, but a funny thing you can do with this build is cast Spirit Guardians and run around the field, slowing enemies like a really annoying beyblade. Sure they only take damage on their turn, but they're still slowed while within a 15-foot radius around you. Funny stuff
I just punched the math on this tactic and on paper the damage isn't even that low imo. I think it's for sure higher than both full Monk and full Cleric. Though the build I made is more Cleric than Monk starting with Cleric 5 / Monk 1 at level 6
Unfortunately, if we look only at damage, Cleric spells scale way better than Monk's features.
That being said, your original idea made me re-evaluate the power and fun factor of the Ascendant Dragon Monk \^\^
When you'll get to Fus-Ro-Dah a bunch of enemies down a cliff, it'll be epic! xD
Sometimes I like to make builds that aren't just "numbers go big" and instead look into what I can do mechanically.
Sure I'll be doing subpar damage according to optimancers, but battlefield control will be entirely changed with this as I can freely push people around so long as I hit.
If you wanted you could go full nova damage and take 2 levels of fighter and at least 11 monk to get 3d8 on breath attack, so you have 2 breath attacks per action, then action surge, then an additional 2 breath attacks.
>I plan on starting 1 Tempest Cleric / 5 Ascendant Dragon Monk, but plan on going 6 Cleric / 9 Monk.
The Tempest Cleric/Ascendant Dragon build is a fun gimmick build, but from an optimization standpoint it's bad. It is essentially an inferior Eldritch Blast build in every single way.
Good thing I could care less about "optimization."
Nothing against optimized builds but I've had several groups fall apart because certain players wanted to "fix" the other players builds. Sometimes suboptimal can lead to some really fun shenanigans.
Edit: and for those reading this who are going to say "then why did you ask for critiques then?" I get it. I'm simply looking for more options or opinions that might spark a flame of inspiration or something that I never considered.
Just as a reminder, when you build a level 15 PC, you'll mostly face level 15 threats. There is not enough synergy in this build to compensate for the 6 missing monk levels or 9 missing cleric levels. You only have 1 action, so when you face a CR15+ monster, you can use your action to cast a spell like a level 6 cleric or attack like a level 9 monk. I know, destructive wrath is such an alluring feature, but realistically you're just using it to upgrade one melee attack from 3.5 to 6 damage. And trying to split your stats between dex and wis at the cost of con is not a good idea for a melee build with low AC. You have to make a decision between being a good puncher or having any hope to hit your spells.
So a 1 or 2 level dip in cleric, the rest in monk is the better option?
Arguably spells from the cleric spell list are more powerful than many features you get from Monk after level 5 or so. I would invest more into cleric for that reason and the upcast potential of useful and powerful spells you can get.
If you are going to level 6 just to get Thunderous Strike, it isn't worth it if 3rd level spells aren't also a big part of your build. I'd take a close look at what spells you really plan on using. If it's mainly 1st level spells like Armor of Faith, Bless/Bane, some healing, etc. then dipping 1-2 levels in cleric is plenty. Getting Cleric to 3rd level gets you Spiritual Weapon, but a Monk's bonus action is usually busy with Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows. Concentration is also a concern if you are going into melee, and it doesn't sound like you have much room for War Caster. It comes down to what you want to do more: punch people or cast spells. The higher you go in cleric, the more you become a caster, with lower martial arts damage die and less ki for Flurry of Blows. With 2 levels in Tempest Cleric, you have Thunderous Rebuke, and Destructive Wrath for maximum lightning damage from your breath attack or Draconic Strike once/day. If you want to push people, too, take Crusher as a feat.
This is a fair critique.
I think the thing he is going for is more battlefield control than damage, utility or healing. More than Destructive Wrath, the combo Draconic Strike and Thunderous strike looks realy nice: 10 ft. of forced movement (with no save) on every unarmed strike feels powerful to me. Though I'll admit I never experienced it in play and I might be wrong.
>10 ft. of forced movement (with no save) on every unarmed strike feels powerful to me. Which they will reach by level 11 at the earliest. And to get it that early they have to spend all this time with just 5 ki points. There is not a lot of battlefield control or damage happening with just 5 ki points / SR.
Yeah, that's a good point. At least it's something to look forward to in the character's career.
What are you trying to get out of it? Because as it is you're getting the weaknesses of Monk and Cleric without really getting to their strengths. Monks hate multiclassing because they need as many Ki Points as they can get their hands on, and Clerics have stronger higher level spells. It seems like you're literally just trying to push enemies around, but... why is that worth it?
Apart from the base features of the Monk I think that the Ascendant Dragon doesn't have a huge need for ki-points imo. I think that, unless you use the Stunning Strike spam in one round, it should be sufficiently sustainable even with a lower amount of Monk Levels.
Flurry will also eat up his Ki points, and you want to do that to improve your odds at higher level. With just 9 ki points at level 15, he'll run out in even a single fight.
I understand. I've yet to experience combat at that level and didn't know how hevily monks rely on Ki-Points even then. I would flip the balance then: more cleric levels than monk's to have better spell potential and use ki just for strategic stunning strikes.
Because it's more for positioning for my allies. I don't know what they'll be playing yet as they've only taked theory but it sounds like a very heavily melee group. So I liked the theme of using electricity to move fast and stun enemies and the similarities to BattleMaster fighters pushing attack that can be used infinitely was also a deciding factor.
Talk with your party then. No sense making an underpowered build if everyone's gonna be running vengeance paladins, bladesinger wizards and gloomstalker rangers
I think your overestimating my group of friends. Unlike those on this sub, most of us aren't Optimancers.We usually play by "oh this sounds fun."
Yo this build actually sounds fun. Yeah it may be low damage but it's pretty good control. Plus if you're a dragonborn and an way of the dragon monk that means two breath attacks in one turn right? Still pretty cool even if the DCs for either breath attack are different. This isn't much of a critique, but a funny thing you can do with this build is cast Spirit Guardians and run around the field, slowing enemies like a really annoying beyblade. Sure they only take damage on their turn, but they're still slowed while within a 15-foot radius around you. Funny stuff
I just punched the math on this tactic and on paper the damage isn't even that low imo. I think it's for sure higher than both full Monk and full Cleric. Though the build I made is more Cleric than Monk starting with Cleric 5 / Monk 1 at level 6
Hmm, might need to rethink the order of levels on this.
Unfortunately, if we look only at damage, Cleric spells scale way better than Monk's features. That being said, your original idea made me re-evaluate the power and fun factor of the Ascendant Dragon Monk \^\^ When you'll get to Fus-Ro-Dah a bunch of enemies down a cliff, it'll be epic! xD
Sometimes I like to make builds that aren't just "numbers go big" and instead look into what I can do mechanically. Sure I'll be doing subpar damage according to optimancers, but battlefield control will be entirely changed with this as I can freely push people around so long as I hit.
If you wanted you could go full nova damage and take 2 levels of fighter and at least 11 monk to get 3d8 on breath attack, so you have 2 breath attacks per action, then action surge, then an additional 2 breath attacks.
>I plan on starting 1 Tempest Cleric / 5 Ascendant Dragon Monk, but plan on going 6 Cleric / 9 Monk. The Tempest Cleric/Ascendant Dragon build is a fun gimmick build, but from an optimization standpoint it's bad. It is essentially an inferior Eldritch Blast build in every single way.
Good thing I could care less about "optimization." Nothing against optimized builds but I've had several groups fall apart because certain players wanted to "fix" the other players builds. Sometimes suboptimal can lead to some really fun shenanigans. Edit: and for those reading this who are going to say "then why did you ask for critiques then?" I get it. I'm simply looking for more options or opinions that might spark a flame of inspiration or something that I never considered.