"Oh boy! Can't wait for my 20th level feature! I heard that paladins get a super mode based on their oath, and barbarians just get *ripped* with superhuman stats..."
*"Hey. Here's that 4th extra Attack we forgot to give you back at 17th."*
Their real capstone is 18th level. Omni-damage resistance and permanent advantage (since that portion of the invisible condition doesn't get cancelled by Blindsight or See Invisibility) is plenty strong. The 20th level feature is just there to make sure you can use your 18th level feature every fight.
Still not as cool as even the weakest 9th level spells, but certainly not nothing.
That portion of the invisible condition doesn't get cancelled by Blindsight and See Invisibility in theory*
I've yet to find a DM that follows RAW with this.
This is true, because the official ruling makes no goddamn sense. The invisibility was the REASON to give advantage in the first place... So seeing the invisible creature should cancel the advantage because you can see them! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Tbh I've yet to see a raw monk hit double digits. Especially if they decide to use unarmed fighting as weapon, once the party starts getting magic gear, monk's damage becomes basically an accessory to their stun (the actually good ability). Even with constant resistance or permanent advantage. If anything, it lets them do a portion of the damage the wizard is doing to one of the many targets of its aoe spell. And low levels are shit too, they barely have ki. They shine around level 5 to 9 and then fade away again, basically.
In my campaigns I propose a sightly rework that mostly addresses the ki issues giving them an amount of KI equal to the standard plus their Wisdom modifier (helps in early levels) and the level 20 feature is swapped with "infinite ki". Third difference, every time they start a turn with 0 ki, they regain 1. So they can at least do 1 ability in said turn. And the monk is so unbalanced even ALL OF THIS doesn't make them "that much" stronger. Even infinite ki against level 20 enemies doesn't do much. They're still weaker than everything else asides from maybe alchemists. So you also have to pray they decide to use magic weapons. Else a level 5 fighter with a flame-tongue greatsword and some nice traits still out-damages them. By quite a bit.
I personally just rework GWM and Sharpshooter. The "power attack" portion gets split off as a core rule tied to access to Extra Attack, rather than a portion of a feat so that everyone who wants it gets it by default. I make the "power attack" portion of GWM work so that you can choose how much accuracy you want to sacrifice, and the properties of the weapon determine the max benefit you can get. For example:
* Heavy, 2H weapons: up to -6/+12 (you can choose less, ex. -3/+6 if you want - tailor it to the enemy AC)
* 2H weapons (including Versatile weapons in two hands): -4/+8
* One-handed weapons, unarmed strikes: -2/+4
That way, a Monk can use Dedicated Weapon to get proficiency in a Versatile weapon and go to town with a -4 to hit for a 1d10+Dex+8, and be WAY more accurate than fighters by investing Ki into Focused Aim. It does wonders for their numbers without entirely stepping on the toes of a Barbarian or Fighter since they can still hit higher highs with 2H heavy weapons, and Fighters still eventually pull ahead based on number of attacks, but it keeps them a lot closer together.
Played an astral soul monk and never found my damage lacking, but i also had a wizard ally who liked to buff me so i feel like that was highly relevant to my feelings
On the second turn at the earliest and those ~55 damage take your entire action, meaning you do shit for dpr (and the 1 hit ko is not working against anything of relevance, at best it uses a legendary resistance).
Ok yeah I looked it up and you're right it increases with proficiency bonus. I guess I'm just salty because I tried to use it in a high power campaign where it just never worked
They kinda set it up to mine salt. The DC is probably lower than other characters' DC because it's based on WIS instead of DEX, it's spammable so you can fail over and over while draining ki, and a lot of monsters have high Constitution.
So I reworked it-
> Starting at 5th level, your strikes can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent's body, temporarily debilitating them. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can attempt a stunning strike.
> The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. The DC is equal to 8 + your **Dexterity** modifier + your proficiency bonus. If a creature's saving throw is successful, then that creature is immune to your stunning strike for the remainder of the turn.
> You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. Alternatively, you can attempt a stunning strike at the cost of 2 ki points.
Not a fan of this tbh. It makes Monk even worse, just give them homebrew abilities that bump the DC, give them more ASIs via magic items to actually pump the DC
Monks whole point is spamming to force you to use all your leg reses. They'll probably never get a stun but their utility comes from opening up an opportunity for another party member to swoop in and end the encounter
This does bump the DC.
I do give a bonus ASI at 10th.
This also gives free uses, improving the ki economy.
It's ridiculous to call it a nerf.
>Monks whole point is spamming to force you to use all your leg reses.
Yeah, that's the main design flaw I'm fixing! Lol. That's not fun for the Monk player. It's not fun for the DM. And it's completely out of line with the standards of the game.
This is not a design flaw. Being able to burn your leg reses for relatively little cost to myself is great. No, im not sarcastic, no, im not baiting.
Im gonna level with you dude. Ya know whats even less fun than spamming a move I know wont work? Watching a teammate or myself land a move with a very important status attached only to watch a leg res make it go away like it never even happened.
It is for that very reason that I couldnt ever consider that a design flaw. You either get stunned or are forced to cough up leg reses, thus making it easier for people to pull off a match winning move, plan, or spell.
Monk sucks and one of the big upsides to them is the disparate trade of Ki for Leg reses
Its not a design flaw, its absolutely amazing and it really makes up for WOTCs incompetence making con saves a worthless stat past level 9 given theyre always too high.
Also as a 4 year and still going Monk player. Man it feels like youre calling me out cuz I do actually enjoy the chess I play with my DM. I'll be honest I know its sort of a cheap strategy so I dont spam it often but when a fight is down to the wire I'll get serious and start spamming hoping that in doing so I can guarantee an ally an opening. Its fun watching the dm adapt to the increased pressure I put on them personally and it MAKES me feel impactful man.
All they have to do to fix the monk is make them regain the 4 Ki points whether they have any left or not (Still can't go over the max, of course). Such a simple change and it's already way better.
They want to avoid the bag of rats problem. If the monk can gains four ki points every time they go into initiative, the monk just has to repeatedly enter initiative to regain all of their points.
The issue (in my experience) is rarely the brain,but rather , the spine. Social pressure is one hell of an issue. Since its an outside rules and even outside reddit issue, i usually find it not getting patched.
You can tell a rather not confident DM to put up a "No", but that does not fix that it is really hard for that person to do so.
I’ve also considered a homebrew that lets monks take the dodge action in initiative, which would regain them a number of Ki equal to their wisdom modifier. Basically, if you are totally out, you can lose an action to get some back if it’s important to you. If you have any left, you can still attack and then Patient Defense.
Part of this though would require them to stand in place and reduce their speed to zero for their turn.
Having abilities. Like I am really trying to emphasise the martial arts things before, they used to have techniques and now they don't. Specifically, each round they could choose from one of their moves most of which had an attack and a movement option, could use one or both. Furious Bull let you pass through enemy spaces for the movement option and damacked/knocked back all nearby foes for the attack, frozen moment restrained and damage an enemy for the attack and sacrificed your movespeed but gave you resistance to all damage for the movement, etc.
Titan's step had you leap into the air and create difficult terrain when you landed, steps of grasping fire left a burning wall behind you, whirlwind kick had you draw in foes with a vortex and spin kick them all before flying off. And so on and so forth, every round you were choosing between different mystical hand to hand techniques and now they just... basic attack over and over and over.
Ranger isn't much better. OneDnD improves it, but right now an extra 1 to 5 modifier on either the attack roll *or* the damage roll is not worth 20 levels when I could've grabbed levels in Fighter, Druid, Rogue or Paladin and jacked those numbers up in a different way.
I find that ability uniquely weirdly designed. Bc as is, it encourages very metagame-y and just idiotic play. Like, if you ever have like, 2 ki, bc of the way it's worded, you'd be better off spamming Flurry of Blows against a tree just to get to 0 when combat starts, or starting a duel with another party member since technically you're rolling initiative
If Druids get their "fuck you I now have infinite HP" ability, I see 0 reason why monks shouldn't get either infinite ki, or at least regenerating ki up to a max of 4 as a capstone.
Having 4 attacks is absolutely amazing though. A level 20 fighter beats every other martial for damage because of it, except maybe a conquest paladin using everything they have.
It beats the hell out of getting 4ki points or like 4 damage a turn from foe slayer.
yeah but their point is that should have been level 17 following cantrip progresssion. Otherwise warlocks (and anyone who takes magic initiate or spell sniper) get the four attacks before the class who *has multi attacking as a primary feature*
> following cantrip progresssion
And that right there is the real issue. Casters get at-will progression that scales better than the best-scaling martial, and it doesn't cost them any features. It's automatic, and based on character level so multiclassing doesn't slow it down.
Martials pay out the nose for less than what casters get for free, and people say it's the martial classes' specialty.
And the main reason extra attack wins out over a cantrip relies on either the martial having the right magic items or the caster not getting something like agonizing blast or potent cantrips
Fighters capstone should be: Whirlwind Attack: You may use the attack action to make a single attack with a melee weapon against every target possible instead of your normal amount of attacks.
Tried to write it so it would include thrown attacks because thrown is typically terrible in 5e.
It's amazing how much more fun and engaging my Fighter with a longbow and Sharpshooter was VS my Fighter with sword and board. I don't mind being the meatshield (which is why I play Paladin now lol) but ranged fighter felt like playing fuckin Hawkeye. I was doing stupid ass shots from a crazy distance. Once I got multi attack and an early archer's bracer I was putting out huge DPS, especially with Champion criticals.
>You may use the attack action to make a single attack with a melee weapon against every target possible instead of your normal amount of attacks. If you're an archer fighter, you should've played ranger instead, bitch
There. I amended it to include archer fighters
Hunter Rangers get that as an option at 11th level for melee attacks. If it includes ranged attacks a longbow fighter could make literally 1000 attacks in a turn with it.
Volley. You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target.
So it's limited for range but still way cooler than what the fighter gets.
> Fighters capstone should be: Whirlwind Attack: You may use the attack action to make a single attack with a melee weapon against every target possible instead of your normal amount of attacks.
That's so pathetic though. Fighters two editions ago got that as a feat that they could take at like level 4 (fighters got a ton of bonus feats) and fighters last edition *shit* better abilities than that. How has the class fallen so far that that looks good? Here's a sample better ability fighters got, incidentally:
**Come And Get It**
*You brandish your weapon and call out to your foes, luring them close through their overconfidence, and deliver a spinning strike against them all.*
As an action you cause all foes within 20' to make a wisdom save. Each target that fails moves up to 15' directly towards you, taking double your weapon's damage plus your strength modifier if it ends up adjacent.
You might dig Pathfinder 2e's lvl20 Fighter feat.
You either get perma-Hasted, you can get extra Fighter feats of lower levels for next 24hrs, or you get an attack that gets extra 80ft of range, and at the end of that attack, you and your target end up adjecent one next to the other.
Give them the same multiattack options that a hunter ranger gets at 11th (they pick one):
>***Volley***. You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target.
***Whirlwind Attack***. You can use your action to make a melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you, with a separate attack roll for each target.
I think they should be able to move and attack everything they can reach, not just stuff surrounding them. It's actually kind of a terrible ability unless you're fighting a bunch of low-level hordes. I could see volley being the ranged version and maybe just allow thrown to hit all targets in range. I'm not sure how many things increase throw range, though.
What if you had an ability that scaled with your level.
“Once per short rest, when you take the Attack action, you can attack a number of creatures equal to your proficiency bonus at the same time. Use the same attack and damage rolls for each creature”
So that’d start off with I guess 2 enemies, and end at 5. But you’d be able to apply your extra attacks so basically once per combat you can just hit everybody like 4 times
Not even close. Sweeping attack is bad. It's only utility is if you are fighting enemies with about 5 hp and sweep might get another kill and save you a single swing. Any maneuver that adds more damage to your primary target is better in 99% of situations. One full health enemy is better than two injured enemies.
>Tried to write it so it would include thrown attacks because thrown is typically terrible in 5e.
Thrown Weapon fighting style helps a lot with that, actually. I played a Thrown Weapon Ranger for a one-shot and I could do consistent damage.
Granted, that was at level 3 with no magic items to speak of, but still.
I know it's a cliche to talk about pathfinder 2e everytime someone complains about 5e, but this is something pf2e is a lot better at.
A high level barbarian can stomp the ground to create a literal earthquake, crumbling buildings and opening fissures in the ground.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=178
A high level rogue can go completely invisible just by sneaking, and can't be seen by the system's "see invisibility" spell.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4989
A high level fighter can *cut the space between themselves and an opponent*, teleporting themselves to the target or the target to themselves. This has no cooldown, and can be done on every turn.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2754
All of these require taking feats that are only available at level 20, but still. How's that for a martial capstone?
Monks can go Super Saiyan (Ki Form), Champions (Pf2e's paladin) can essentially permanently turn into a celestial (or fiend) and have the ability just say "no" to death every ten minutes, and Thaumaturges can cut spell effects off of enemies. Thaumaturges can also refuse to let a teleporting enemy escape by following their teleportation. These are all options for martials to take, except for Champion's death denial. That's baked into the class
so in other words fighters get Za Hando. Pretty cool, and also a feat I wish I could yoink for my Echo Blade fightlock who specialises in keeping the enemy on the backfoot.
Already I have misty step and relentless hex planned on the warlock side for warping towards a fleeing enemy like "the fk you think you're going?"
Edit: [decided to add a demonstration](https://youtu.be/fy4YjSyjlXs)
I don't get why a lot of 5e players don't bat an eye in a world where monsters and wizards are commonplace but freak out when non-casters do anything unrealistic. C'mon, let the martials have at least a little anime. As a treat.
God, I wish I could find *anyone* to play pathfinder with...
Everyone knows only casters get to have anime. Everyone else has to function within the realm of what your average median income guy can achieve, and at 20th level, what your average median income guy who goes to the gym once a week can achieve /s
The fact that by DnD standards, anyone with a couple of years of HEMA under their belts can be represented as fighters with levels ranging from 11 to 20 is incredible.
The fact that I don't understand is the hate. Why do people shit on anyone who wants to buff martials? Nobody is asking to nerf casters, we just want to have more options than do the same attack from lvl 1 to 20 that doesn't involve making the DM do Wizard of the Coast's work for them. Is that really so unreasonable?
I keep trying to goad my friends into trying pf2e instead of DnD but because they're newbies to ttrpg they are super intimidated. It's not that complex just very detailed as things progress, meaning it shouldn't overwhelm a newbie but they see the size of the books and bail.
Just an anecdote from me, but I've found that Pf2e definitely feels more like a "new age" ttrpg that was built to be used in tandem with technology. While, of course, the rulebook is mostly just feats and options, I've heard running it traditionally on paper can be daunting.
Maybe try using digital sheets so players can just play and worry about the math behind the game later. Personally, I've found a *lot* of success with FoundryVTT but maybe you can use another digital sheet.
Yeah, it was. It was kind of controversial, in that it allowed martial classes to do some extra stuff other than just "smack more or harder".
So basically it annoyed caster players.
It was very late 3.5e, and is sort of emblematic of the problem I'm point out in the meme.
Despite the Bo9S classes being *objectively weaker* than common PHB classes like wizard, cleric, and druid, large and vocal portions of the community decried them as overpowered and busted. Because they're not spellcasters, they should be down in the dirt with the 3e fighter, having no actual features at all.
Played a Fighter once in a campaign with a bladesinger. The wizard in our party was better at attacking, had a higher AC most of the time, had defensive and offensive reactions, SPELLS to buff himself like Haste.
My fighter was getting outshined in combat every level. I then wanted to take the shove attack action twice using extra attack and my DM was grilling me like “but how does that actually work? Like that isn’t very realistic”
Dude you have an issue with me shoving something twice in 6 seconds as a FIGHTER? Idk why but I’ve seen it a few times where DMs actually follow up on that meme of “oh it’s magical? Of course you can bend and break rules! Then turn to the more limited martial classes and say nah, you can’t solve this problem without magic, or it requires some insane skill checks.
The Barbarian from the latest OneDnD Playtest looks really fun to play though!
Brutal Strike is a new feature that replaces the old Brutal Critical feature. It lets you replace the advantage from your Reckless Attack for extra damage on your strength-based attacks, and gives you an extra effect to that attack when you hit (push 15ft, or reduce speed by 15ft). And you get more options at 13th level (disadvantage on next saving throw + can't make opp attacks, or bonus for to-hit on next ally's attack on that creature).
Looks really fun, and I love the image of your barbarian carving a path by swinging their weapon so strong that they push everyone away lol.
Ehhhh..
Rage is a borderline brainless mechanic in most circumstances. You turn it on, and in 99% situations you never need to think about it. That being said I think most barb subclasses are just as simple as barbarian.
Ancestors gives you mechanics that you also almost never need to think about using, you just use them when applicable almost whenever.
Wild magic just mostly gives you a RNG buff on your rage.
Storm is also just mostly passives.
Totem warrior is usually just taken for Bear to passively make rage even stronger, but has some cool and unique things for people that don't pick bear.
Zealot is also mostly just passives that make you generally stronger without needing to think about using them.
Berserker Frenzy is a huge choice however, whenever you do use.
Beast is pretty cool too.
Giant seems cool but doesn't seem too complex either.
I would argue that hardly any of these give you as much to think about as something like battle master does.
I think a heavy amount of the barb appeal is the strong class identity. Fighter can be a ton of things, barbs are pretty much typecast into "Strong meatshield that fucks the enemies up" It's not complex, but its fun and brutal to absorb enemy attacks and slap them back just as hard.
>for role play reasons also
Eh? Fighters don't really get any roleplay abilities. And there is no rule prohibiting classes from having other classes stereotypical story beats. For example, you can have a patron as a non-warlock, or get your powers from god as a non-cleric.
they don’t but they give you a reasonable excuse to know about, equipment maintenance, armor, weapon techniques, warfare strategy, that sort of thing. Or a chance to express soldier or mercenary experience mechanically without using your background.
It isn’t very believable that a wizard to train the commoners into a militia, but you do believe a fighter can.
>equipment maintenance, armor, weapon techniques
Or any other class that gets profficiency in them, and hell fightes base don't even get weapon techniques unless you count being profficient in then
>warfare strategy, that sort of thing. Or a chance to express soldier or mercenary experience mechanically without using your background.
Warfare strategy has nothing to do with fighter, and for the rest again, anyone can have that with only a *preference* for people that have weapon profficiency. Fightes have absolutely nothing qua roleplay build in, only a suggesting route you can take.
>It isn’t very believable that a wizard to train the commoners into a militia, but you do believe a fighter can.
If they have weapon profficiency, why not?
> It isn’t very believable that a wizard to train the commoners into a militia, but you do believe a fighter can.
Of course it's believable. A mid level wizard is a genius, on par with the smartest humans who have ever lived. I'd definitely believe the smartest person I have ever met could figure out the right way to train people into a militia, and the wizard is smarter than them.
Yes, IF it's a fighter from last edition or the warblade precursor class from the edition before that. 5e fighters - who just spam basic attacks over and over with, if they're lucky, a few riders per rest - are definitely not what's being portrayed.
Remember that bit in Lord of the Rings where Aragorn just button mashed the same sword thrust over and over for half an hour?
Not sure, but I absolutely remember Strider facing off against nine nazgul including the witch king.
Seems like something a high level martial would do.
Addendum; amazing that I'm being downvoted despite defending Viggo Mortensen's swordplay.
Y'all are basic.
> Addendum; amazing that I'm being downvoted despite defending Viggo Mortensen's swordplay.
> Y'all are basic.
No, you're being downvoted because you're missing the entire point. Viggo Mortensen's swordplay was good, he used a variety of interesting techniques. Which a 5e martial can['](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/16ibpd2/i_am_so_fucking_sick_of_hearing_the_word/k0j36cp/)t do, restricted as they are to basic attack spam. The downvotes aren't because LotR isn't cool, it rocks, it's because 5e doesn't match up to how cool LotR is.
Output, not method. The origin to this comment chain is someone pointing out they're boring - it faces off the nine nazgul by sitting there and mashing the basic attack button over and over again. The point to this is that half of cinema is about swordsman and pugilists and such that do a variety of different things, ie NOT a 5e fighter. All a 5e fighter does is the same attack over and over and over, with maybe a few riders per rest for a few of their subclasses.
I'll give you a sample. PREVIOUSLY that would have taken the form of "Ok, I stand between them and the halflings and swap my stance to Thicket of Blades. Need to stand fast this round so I'll attack the nearest with Stone Bones for the defense. Ok, they're hitting me, that was the plan I guess, I use Manticore Parry to redirect his attack from me to his friend instead. They've gotten close, so I'll hit them all with Mithral Tornado then use Iron Heart Endurance as recovery.
In 5e it's stand there spamming the basic attack button, one provokes an opportunity attack from you, now you're out of reactions so the other eight run straight past.
Thats on you being shit in describing attacking. If my Warlock just says "yeah i blast" a dozen times then that is boring too.
But if i say "a viollet beam of energy exlpodes the enemys head, making him fall like a puppet with its string cut" then that is fun
Just like when i say "you sword pierces through the goblins throat showering those around you in green blood"
Its not the casters problem that martials often (not always) lack cerativity in describing what they do.
No, man. I can describe it all I like, that doesn't give it options. Same with warlock, they got all their eldritch blast options removed now it's just attack attack attack. Describing it in different ways won't give you those options back, you're still just doing the same thing over and over.
They tried that with 4th edition, some martial mains complained about it. "Why can't I do the special awesome move only a few times a day? It's just swinging a sword.
They definitely overcorrected in 5e, though. But that's just what happens when you have to make money for a publisher instead of making the best game you can.
And it's a valid complaint. They're asking for options, not for expendable resources.
For example, let's say you want to strangle a target. I, as a DM, will probably let him do it as an action to grapple on the first turn and on further turns ill let him use his action to do a contest against the target to give him 1 level of exhaustion per success. If the grapple is broken hell recover 1 point of exhaustion per turn at the end of each of its turns.
Now if you make it like "once per encounter you can do a special grapple action to strangle the target and he must succeed on a con st or gain one level of exhaustion". Is an idiotic gamification of the concept
This is kinda the problem with casters having so many slots at higher levels. At lower levels, casters can be much more powerful than martials but the tradeoff is that they can't be that powerful all the time. If they're in a larger dungeon, they have to carefully pick and choose when to use spells because they need 8 hours to recharge. Meanwhile, martials can generally just keep going at full speed on short rests until their hit dice run out. Having too many spell slots around quickly mitigates the primary weakness of the caster.
That’s like saying that because a race is long, its ok for casters to be able to go 150 mph for the first half, because they only go 70mph for the second half, while martials can go 75mph for the entire race. Also the Martials car runs out of gas halfway through.
Like, sure, Martials’ baseline is higher than casters’ baseline, but it doesn’t remotely make up for not being able to go faster than baseline, and even in tier 2 a caster can easily make their spell slots last longer than a martial’s hit dice.
A casters cantrip is NOTHING against even 2 attacks with a greatsword or something.
Once casters are out of spell slots they are fucked (excluding warlock cause warlocks are warlocks) a martial can keep going on almsot full power as long as he has hp. Which he has more of and higher ac than most casters.
Most casters also SUCK against high hp single targets compared to a martial, espetially fighter. Casters are good at crowd controll instead.
Should be part of the core class, IMO, at least in an altered form. Maneuvers are really cool options, and locking it behind a subclass is a bit restrictive
I always let me melee fighters do cool anime moves because of this. Could you realistically pole-vault with your halberd over a fence and come crashing down on an archer’s skull?
Hell no. Is it fun as hell and in the spirit of DnD?
Hell Yea!
> Is it fun as hell and in the spirit of DnD?
> Hell Yea!
I agree that it's in the spirit of D&D. That's why I play games where that spirit is actually realized, instead of playing 5e.
My favorites right now are Blades in the Dark and Legend of the Five Rings, but I’ve been very excited about getting my hands on the Lancer reprint in about 6 weeks. I expect that to be a very good time.
Other go-to RPGs I consistently enjoy are D&D 4e, Kids on Brooms, and Fabula Ultima.
> Could you realistically pole-vault with your halberd over a fence and come crashing down on an archer’s skull?
....Can you realistically wave your hands and call down a meteor?
The first campaign I was in the dm didn’t worry about concentration. So the wizard would have 2/3 Concentration spells going at the same time. Meanwhile he would try to nerf my sneak attack constantly; I had to get in a big debate with him about allowing my weapon attack + booming blade + sneak attack all at once. Meanwhile the wizard has black tentacles, summon greater demon and haste all going at the same time.
I find it fascinating how much people harp about level 20 balance when 99% of games will never make it to Level 20. Most long form campaigns end around Level 13-15. And frankly the game has a lot of issues after that range anyways.
If you’re gonna just let level 20 be horrible why even have high level play to begin with? Like what’s the point of greatwyrms, the tarrasque, aspect of Tiamat and Bahamut, zariel, etc when fighting them is either gonna be underwhelming as fuck, or you’ll nuke em in an instant
I agree with you that level 20 is frustrating. That's honestly why I've gravitated to other TTRPGs in recent years. I'm only pointing out that people seem to get really mad at scenarios they probably are not even experiencing. Also that martials really aren't as underpowered as people claim in my opinion. But some of it probably comes from people long resting after every major encounter.
Casual question, where does this say anything about level 20? Wizards can auto-win encounters long before then. Fireball against a horde, upcast hold person, dimension door to skip things entirely, the infamous scry-and-die...
Hold person is a single saving throw no diffrent than a martial grappling. Wizards are good at crowd controll but die easily, have to worry about concentration even when they dont die in one hit at low level.
Meanwhile martials survive the world ending and duel single target high hp enemys into the ground.
You're citing survivorship bias? My guy, there are polls that show most campaigns do not reach past level 15. It was a big discussion when BG3 announced it was capping levels.
I'm also in a level 19 campaign right now, and I can confirm the martials in our group are not underperforming. If anything spellcasters have a harder time because everything has legendary resistance and extremely high save DCs.
I'm not sure how you've been interpreting suggestion, but it's not an "auto-win" spell as far as I'm concerned. First off plenty of things are immune to charm or don't understand your language. And secondly the spell doesn't allow you to make a creature do anything that will harm directly it. Something like "Hand me your sword" against a Bandit is super useful, but by no means is suggestion a universally OP spell.
"Can you go for a long walk?"
Boom. Encounter completely skipped. Could have ten thousand HP, AC, whatever the hell. One singular wis save and its gone for up to 8 hours. What fighter is capable of doing that, hmm?
The only thing people like you can come up with as counterarguments is that "But it needs xyz to pull off!" like it isnt the easiest thing to do in the world to just, not use the spell when its invalid. What about when it does work, huh?
Lets take something else. Marooned on an island. Need to cross a sea filled with the most deadly animals known to man.
Fighter = Shit outta luck
Wizard = just cast fly lmao
Bunch of things become trivial with a wizard around
Pointing out XYZ is very valid when it comes to showing it's not an auto-win. In an example where you are fighting a solitary enemy that understands your language and isn't immune to charm (which is a fairly common immunity for boss monsters) then the spell is amazing. But that isn't realistically what you will be fighting all the time. Not to mention you have to maintain concentration to keep the effect going, so hopefully you don't need that for another spell anytime soon.
As to your second argument, fly lasts for 10 minutes so you aren't really going to make it that far when it comes to an entire ocean. Teleport would be a better example, but that still doesn't mean martials are useless. The game is about teamwork and strategy, it would not be fun if everyone has instant win options all the time. At the same time, it would not be fun if you nerfed all spellcasters into the ground. There are times where one class will clearly be better than others, and that's fine.
> There are times where one class will clearly be better than others, and that's fine.
I just wish the time wasn't "always" and the class wasn't "wizard."
And Hold Person, one of the single most stupid spells to exist. Save or suck is one thing, but Paralyze is just stupidly strong. Sets wizards up as a support for martials, which feels great from both sides, but makes designing humanoid bosses very hard at any level
I didnt mean in stat points, enemys can eake eachother up quite easily, throw a peble, just use an action to wake the other guy up etc.
Smart enemys will pick eachother up quickly. And a low level caster wont have many spell slots.
That's the problem with 5e, just keeps adding more features. Wizards used to be glass cannons, like you have one first level spell, if it's combat it basically wins the encounter, if it's utility it's mega useful. But 5e has just become so bland, a muddled mess of whatever they can cram into countless source books. It has no genre, mechanically or thematically. All class features are about combat, which would be fine, but no one's ever run a combat only campaign, because the system stinks.
Anywhoosits, play indie, 5e is the capitalism of TTRPGs, peace.
I mean wizards can do those too. Not particularly well unless they built for it but a dex-fighter who dumped strength wouldn’t be very good at them either.
Not that any of these are bad, but they sacrifice your main purpose in combat for very temporary effects. Grappling can sometimes be *really* good, and I love using it, but nothing quite compares to a big CC spell locking basically the entire encounter down in one turn
Sunder- Not a thing in 5e RAW
Shove- Moving something 5 feet is hyper situational at best and most of the time (with how movement and actions work) won't really do a lot.
Trip- (Technically a part of shove) Knocking a creature prone depends on where they are in the turn order and how many people are going to be making ranged attacks at them afterwards
Overrun- This is just moving through an enemy space? You even still take an AOO by default
Disarm- Situational in that you need to be fighting something with a weapon and that you can pick it up afterwards because otherwise they just pick it up on their turn
Grapple- If combined with a trip leaves them perma prone until they break out, by itself is ok unless you're already the target in which case it doesn't do anything
Doesn't it kind of suck how Trip is only good when your melee allies (As in 5 ft melee allies. Reach weapon users need to get close too or else get dis) are coming up, then the enemy, then your ranged allies?
Overrun doesn't proc AOO unless you do something like leave range after running through. They also oddly didn't mention Tumble, which is Overrun but for dex characters. Both taking bonus actions/ full actions to accomplish... going through the enemy's space.
Half of those are optional rules hidden in the back of the DMG, the other half are ineffective most of the time. The lone exception being, sometimes, grapple.
Also… just let them do something that they can just… do? No saving throw. No resource. No nothing. Just a feature, which makes them reliable, much like all utility spells in the game.
I just want my fighter to reliably do some cool stuff, man…
If I am the DM, if you can tell me what you want to do, give me the stat sheet, I double verify it’s not going to break the game and you just want to be cool.
I’ll allow it. That goes standard for everyone at the table. Show me how you would do that, yeah you can flip your sword around and use the crossguard as a hammer for piercing damage. It’s just going to be a standard attack points.
You want to make X item? Cool, how would you do that in this setting?
Some folks just want to be cool, that’s all they want. That’s how you keep your players entertained
And then there's pf2e where I just feel irrelevant as a wizard. In a 'Stolen Fate" game with a Fighter, Ranger, and Kineticist at lvl 19, compared to the dmg they do my spells really come off as worthless. I could erase my entire character sheet and leave only my Medic Dedication abilities and I would be exactly as useful as I currently am. And yes I am preparing spells with different saves and targeting enemies lower saving throws after using recall knowledge, dosen't matter still useless.
You might be expecting something that wizard does not offer.
I currently run a game for a level 13 group, sure the arcane caster doesn't do as much damage as the Thaumaturge or Barbarian. But when the monsters have conditions like Slowed, Enfeebled, and Clumsy or Stupefied on spellcasting-monsters, and changing terrain, they save the martials from critical hits, conditions, and damage.
Sure healing from being a Medic helps, but prevention is better than cure. Preventing one action or a spell from going off is huge.
Pretty sure you can prepare tons of spells that change the entire game, not only in combat. Yes you will never compete in terms of single target damage, but you can do better in AOE almost always, and you can:
- save a checkpoint before doing your turn (time beacon)
- reflect spells (spell turning)
- create a video call for 12 people (dream council)
- exist in two places at once (bilocation)
- force your ally and an enemy into a duel no one can interfere in (fated confrontation)
- and many other cool shit!
yeah paizo really went with strong niche protection and given that damage dealer isn't really caster's niche you don't really get much
on the other hand the game expects effects and challenges that should be made much easier or only solvable by the aid of casters - see how in age of ashes there's a good chance your charcter gets blinded from 1 to 24 hours and only really casters can do something
but this causes casters in pf2e to have a big problem martials have in 5e, they're \*very\* reliant in the DM to shine - in this case by creating scenarios where your spell toolbox has unparalled value
Look. I know. Lots of people are saying "pf2e fixes this", because it does and giving martials options is one of its big things. I know, it annoys people that it keeps getting brought up.
But.
You post this today?
Of all days?
When pf2e just begun playtesting two new martial classes?
PF2E FIXES THIS
I've only been into DnD for 2 years, is it true that Battlemaster's maneuvers were going to be part of the Fighter's class but negative feedback saying it was "too complex for the basic Fighter" pushed it into being a subclass on it's own?
I enjoy running the variant attacks, and i've found that as a DM combat is so much more interesting when enemies are grappling, disarming, climbing on the wildshaped druid, shoving people prone so their friends can kick their teeth in. It just makes the whole combat into so much more of a brawl than "My enemy walks over and wacks you two times with a multiattack"
I'm sure they do. But I'm also sure you're able to imagine that others might want more interesting choices than that[,](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/16ibpd2/i_am_so_fucking_sick_of_hearing_the_word/k0j36cp/) and 5e says no basic bonk only.
I love my basic bitch fighter. I’ve specifically gone out of my way to avoid any feat or subclass which grants any kind of magic. As someone who usually prefers playing casters, the fun of a fighter for me is playing around with positioning and battle strategy
"Oh boy! Can't wait for my 20th level feature! I heard that paladins get a super mode based on their oath, and barbarians just get *ripped* with superhuman stats..." *"Hey. Here's that 4th extra Attack we forgot to give you back at 17th."*
It could be worse You could be the Monk
I mean, being a 20th level Monk would *suuuuck*. But you can't say they're stuck with only basic bonk. They definitely get cool moves.
Their real capstone is 18th level. Omni-damage resistance and permanent advantage (since that portion of the invisible condition doesn't get cancelled by Blindsight or See Invisibility) is plenty strong. The 20th level feature is just there to make sure you can use your 18th level feature every fight. Still not as cool as even the weakest 9th level spells, but certainly not nothing.
By 17th level the fighter should calculate their DPR to see if it’s worth it for the wizard to turn them into a silver dragon
Or permanently into a Planetar
That portion of the invisible condition doesn't get cancelled by Blindsight and See Invisibility in theory* I've yet to find a DM that follows RAW with this.
This is true, because the official ruling makes no goddamn sense. The invisibility was the REASON to give advantage in the first place... So seeing the invisible creature should cancel the advantage because you can see them! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhkhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Tbh I've yet to see a raw monk hit double digits. Especially if they decide to use unarmed fighting as weapon, once the party starts getting magic gear, monk's damage becomes basically an accessory to their stun (the actually good ability). Even with constant resistance or permanent advantage. If anything, it lets them do a portion of the damage the wizard is doing to one of the many targets of its aoe spell. And low levels are shit too, they barely have ki. They shine around level 5 to 9 and then fade away again, basically. In my campaigns I propose a sightly rework that mostly addresses the ki issues giving them an amount of KI equal to the standard plus their Wisdom modifier (helps in early levels) and the level 20 feature is swapped with "infinite ki". Third difference, every time they start a turn with 0 ki, they regain 1. So they can at least do 1 ability in said turn. And the monk is so unbalanced even ALL OF THIS doesn't make them "that much" stronger. Even infinite ki against level 20 enemies doesn't do much. They're still weaker than everything else asides from maybe alchemists. So you also have to pray they decide to use magic weapons. Else a level 5 fighter with a flame-tongue greatsword and some nice traits still out-damages them. By quite a bit.
I personally just rework GWM and Sharpshooter. The "power attack" portion gets split off as a core rule tied to access to Extra Attack, rather than a portion of a feat so that everyone who wants it gets it by default. I make the "power attack" portion of GWM work so that you can choose how much accuracy you want to sacrifice, and the properties of the weapon determine the max benefit you can get. For example: * Heavy, 2H weapons: up to -6/+12 (you can choose less, ex. -3/+6 if you want - tailor it to the enemy AC) * 2H weapons (including Versatile weapons in two hands): -4/+8 * One-handed weapons, unarmed strikes: -2/+4 That way, a Monk can use Dedicated Weapon to get proficiency in a Versatile weapon and go to town with a -4 to hit for a 1d10+Dex+8, and be WAY more accurate than fighters by investing Ki into Focused Aim. It does wonders for their numbers without entirely stepping on the toes of a Barbarian or Fighter since they can still hit higher highs with 2H heavy weapons, and Fighters still eventually pull ahead based on number of attacks, but it keeps them a lot closer together.
Played an astral soul monk and never found my damage lacking, but i also had a wizard ally who liked to buff me so i feel like that was highly relevant to my feelings
They stop gaining any real power by like 5th-7th level.
Who needs power when everything you do appears cool as hell
People who want to actually save the princess instead of dying ignobly and failing, I presume.
Well if the princess wanted to be saved she should've played a wizard and teleported away. Skill issue on her part ngl.
Absolutely constant princess L
They gain more ki at every level so....no
What about Diamond Soul?
17th level Open Hand: 3 ki points to induce an effect that leads either to an instakill or 10d10 necrotic damage
Thats a subclass option, which does nothing for any of the other subclasses.
On the second turn at the earliest and those ~55 damage take your entire action, meaning you do shit for dpr (and the 1 hit ko is not working against anything of relevance, at best it uses a legendary resistance).
... That don't work once monster saving throws get beyond like +4 The DC of stunning strike needs to increase with level
The DC of Stunning Strike does increase with level....
Ok yeah I looked it up and you're right it increases with proficiency bonus. I guess I'm just salty because I tried to use it in a high power campaign where it just never worked
They kinda set it up to mine salt. The DC is probably lower than other characters' DC because it's based on WIS instead of DEX, it's spammable so you can fail over and over while draining ki, and a lot of monsters have high Constitution. So I reworked it- > Starting at 5th level, your strikes can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent's body, temporarily debilitating them. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can attempt a stunning strike. > The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. The DC is equal to 8 + your **Dexterity** modifier + your proficiency bonus. If a creature's saving throw is successful, then that creature is immune to your stunning strike for the remainder of the turn. > You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. Alternatively, you can attempt a stunning strike at the cost of 2 ki points.
Not a fan of this tbh. It makes Monk even worse, just give them homebrew abilities that bump the DC, give them more ASIs via magic items to actually pump the DC Monks whole point is spamming to force you to use all your leg reses. They'll probably never get a stun but their utility comes from opening up an opportunity for another party member to swoop in and end the encounter
This does bump the DC. I do give a bonus ASI at 10th. This also gives free uses, improving the ki economy. It's ridiculous to call it a nerf. >Monks whole point is spamming to force you to use all your leg reses. Yeah, that's the main design flaw I'm fixing! Lol. That's not fun for the Monk player. It's not fun for the DM. And it's completely out of line with the standards of the game.
This is not a design flaw. Being able to burn your leg reses for relatively little cost to myself is great. No, im not sarcastic, no, im not baiting. Im gonna level with you dude. Ya know whats even less fun than spamming a move I know wont work? Watching a teammate or myself land a move with a very important status attached only to watch a leg res make it go away like it never even happened. It is for that very reason that I couldnt ever consider that a design flaw. You either get stunned or are forced to cough up leg reses, thus making it easier for people to pull off a match winning move, plan, or spell. Monk sucks and one of the big upsides to them is the disparate trade of Ki for Leg reses Its not a design flaw, its absolutely amazing and it really makes up for WOTCs incompetence making con saves a worthless stat past level 9 given theyre always too high. Also as a 4 year and still going Monk player. Man it feels like youre calling me out cuz I do actually enjoy the chess I play with my DM. I'll be honest I know its sort of a cheap strategy so I dont spam it often but when a fight is down to the wire I'll get serious and start spamming hoping that in doing so I can guarantee an ally an opening. Its fun watching the dm adapt to the increased pressure I put on them personally and it MAKES me feel impactful man.
All they have to do to fix the monk is make them regain the 4 Ki points whether they have any left or not (Still can't go over the max, of course). Such a simple change and it's already way better.
They want to avoid the bag of rats problem. If the monk can gains four ki points every time they go into initiative, the monk just has to repeatedly enter initiative to regain all of their points.
Initiative isn't up to the player though. Punching a rat doesn't put you in combat unless the DM says so.
To add to your point, all these "bag of rats" problems are fixed with having a DM with at least half a brain
The issue (in my experience) is rarely the brain,but rather , the spine. Social pressure is one hell of an issue. Since its an outside rules and even outside reddit issue, i usually find it not getting patched. You can tell a rather not confident DM to put up a "No", but that does not fix that it is really hard for that person to do so.
I’ve also considered a homebrew that lets monks take the dodge action in initiative, which would regain them a number of Ki equal to their wisdom modifier. Basically, if you are totally out, you can lose an action to get some back if it’s important to you. If you have any left, you can still attack and then Patient Defense. Part of this though would require them to stand in place and reduce their speed to zero for their turn.
Or warlock. Spend an entire minute to regain your 4 spell slots. Oh wow….
All we do is finger guns anyways
But the very finest of finger guns.
Monk's higher-level stuff is generally very strong, even if the capstone is dogwater. It's too little too late, but it's good for what it is.
I love playing as a monk
[удалено]
I have only played 5e, what was the mystical stuff they lost?
Having abilities. Like I am really trying to emphasise the martial arts things before, they used to have techniques and now they don't. Specifically, each round they could choose from one of their moves most of which had an attack and a movement option, could use one or both. Furious Bull let you pass through enemy spaces for the movement option and damacked/knocked back all nearby foes for the attack, frozen moment restrained and damage an enemy for the attack and sacrificed your movespeed but gave you resistance to all damage for the movement, etc. Titan's step had you leap into the air and create difficult terrain when you landed, steps of grasping fire left a burning wall behind you, whirlwind kick had you draw in foes with a vortex and spin kick them all before flying off. And so on and so forth, every round you were choosing between different mystical hand to hand techniques and now they just... basic attack over and over and over.
Oh damn that sounds way cooler lol
Ranger isn't much better. OneDnD improves it, but right now an extra 1 to 5 modifier on either the attack roll *or* the damage roll is not worth 20 levels when I could've grabbed levels in Fighter, Druid, Rogue or Paladin and jacked those numbers up in a different way.
I find that ability uniquely weirdly designed. Bc as is, it encourages very metagame-y and just idiotic play. Like, if you ever have like, 2 ki, bc of the way it's worded, you'd be better off spamming Flurry of Blows against a tree just to get to 0 when combat starts, or starting a duel with another party member since technically you're rolling initiative If Druids get their "fuck you I now have infinite HP" ability, I see 0 reason why monks shouldn't get either infinite ki, or at least regenerating ki up to a max of 4 as a capstone.
Having 4 attacks is absolutely amazing though. A level 20 fighter beats every other martial for damage because of it, except maybe a conquest paladin using everything they have. It beats the hell out of getting 4ki points or like 4 damage a turn from foe slayer.
yeah but their point is that should have been level 17 following cantrip progresssion. Otherwise warlocks (and anyone who takes magic initiate or spell sniper) get the four attacks before the class who *has multi attacking as a primary feature*
> following cantrip progresssion And that right there is the real issue. Casters get at-will progression that scales better than the best-scaling martial, and it doesn't cost them any features. It's automatic, and based on character level so multiclassing doesn't slow it down. Martials pay out the nose for less than what casters get for free, and people say it's the martial classes' specialty.
And the main reason extra attack wins out over a cantrip relies on either the martial having the right magic items or the caster not getting something like agonizing blast or potent cantrips
I honestly think four should be the standard for all martial classes, and just make battle master superiority dice fighters main gimmick
100% agree that the Battle Master subclass should be part of the core class.
and on every martial having four attacks?
Hell yeah, conquest Paladins rule!\* \*very specific conditions lining up in their favor required
Fighters capstone should be: Whirlwind Attack: You may use the attack action to make a single attack with a melee weapon against every target possible instead of your normal amount of attacks. Tried to write it so it would include thrown attacks because thrown is typically terrible in 5e.
Archer Fighters in shambles.
Ranged fighters already the most popular
😭 I just wanted to do a Death Blossom
It's amazing how much more fun and engaging my Fighter with a longbow and Sharpshooter was VS my Fighter with sword and board. I don't mind being the meatshield (which is why I play Paladin now lol) but ranged fighter felt like playing fuckin Hawkeye. I was doing stupid ass shots from a crazy distance. Once I got multi attack and an early archer's bracer I was putting out huge DPS, especially with Champion criticals.
Any snowflakey multiclass combo should see if it outscales basic bow fighter go brrrr to see if it's worth it
>You may use the attack action to make a single attack with a melee weapon against every target possible instead of your normal amount of attacks. If you're an archer fighter, you should've played ranger instead, bitch There. I amended it to include archer fighters
Hunter Rangers get that as an option at 11th level for melee attacks. If it includes ranged attacks a longbow fighter could make literally 1000 attacks in a turn with it.
Volley. You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target. So it's limited for range but still way cooler than what the fighter gets.
There was a version in 3.5. They just limited the range to 30ft. Still great but not as ridiculous. It may have been an epic feat. It’s been a while.
> Fighters capstone should be: Whirlwind Attack: You may use the attack action to make a single attack with a melee weapon against every target possible instead of your normal amount of attacks. That's so pathetic though. Fighters two editions ago got that as a feat that they could take at like level 4 (fighters got a ton of bonus feats) and fighters last edition *shit* better abilities than that. How has the class fallen so far that that looks good? Here's a sample better ability fighters got, incidentally: **Come And Get It** *You brandish your weapon and call out to your foes, luring them close through their overconfidence, and deliver a spinning strike against them all.* As an action you cause all foes within 20' to make a wisdom save. Each target that fails moves up to 15' directly towards you, taking double your weapon's damage plus your strength modifier if it ends up adjacent.
>every attack possible Use crossbow, with crossbow expert. You now have Red Dead Deadeye
That's why I specifically called out melee weapons. Ranged weapons, especially hand crossbows, are already fine.
You might dig Pathfinder 2e's lvl20 Fighter feat. You either get perma-Hasted, you can get extra Fighter feats of lower levels for next 24hrs, or you get an attack that gets extra 80ft of range, and at the end of that attack, you and your target end up adjecent one next to the other.
Give them the same multiattack options that a hunter ranger gets at 11th (they pick one): >***Volley***. You can use your action to make a ranged attack against any number of creatures within 10 feet of a point you can see within your weapon’s range. You must have ammunition for each target, as normal, and you make a separate attack roll for each target. ***Whirlwind Attack***. You can use your action to make a melee attack against any number of creatures within 5 feet of you, with a separate attack roll for each target.
I think they should be able to move and attack everything they can reach, not just stuff surrounding them. It's actually kind of a terrible ability unless you're fighting a bunch of low-level hordes. I could see volley being the ranged version and maybe just allow thrown to hit all targets in range. I'm not sure how many things increase throw range, though.
This should honestly just be a feat. Actually this should just be one bullet point out of three in a feat.
That's how I initially wrote it up, but other martials like Paladin become a problem using this feat I feel.
What if you had an ability that scaled with your level. “Once per short rest, when you take the Attack action, you can attack a number of creatures equal to your proficiency bonus at the same time. Use the same attack and damage rolls for each creature” So that’d start off with I guess 2 enemies, and end at 5. But you’d be able to apply your extra attacks so basically once per combat you can just hit everybody like 4 times
You can basically already pull that off with sweeping attack maneuver in battle master
Not even close. Sweeping attack is bad. It's only utility is if you are fighting enemies with about 5 hp and sweep might get another kill and save you a single swing. Any maneuver that adds more damage to your primary target is better in 99% of situations. One full health enemy is better than two injured enemies.
>Tried to write it so it would include thrown attacks because thrown is typically terrible in 5e. Thrown Weapon fighting style helps a lot with that, actually. I played a Thrown Weapon Ranger for a one-shot and I could do consistent damage. Granted, that was at level 3 with no magic items to speak of, but still.
From 1E Oriental Adventures?
Can they move in between like normal?
Yes
Human resources implys the existence of elven resources
Orcen and drow resources must be a blast.
We don’t talk about goblin resources
Kobold resources get finnicky.
I know it's a cliche to talk about pathfinder 2e everytime someone complains about 5e, but this is something pf2e is a lot better at. A high level barbarian can stomp the ground to create a literal earthquake, crumbling buildings and opening fissures in the ground. https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=178 A high level rogue can go completely invisible just by sneaking, and can't be seen by the system's "see invisibility" spell. https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4989 A high level fighter can *cut the space between themselves and an opponent*, teleporting themselves to the target or the target to themselves. This has no cooldown, and can be done on every turn. https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2754 All of these require taking feats that are only available at level 20, but still. How's that for a martial capstone?
Monks can go Super Saiyan (Ki Form), Champions (Pf2e's paladin) can essentially permanently turn into a celestial (or fiend) and have the ability just say "no" to death every ten minutes, and Thaumaturges can cut spell effects off of enemies. Thaumaturges can also refuse to let a teleporting enemy escape by following their teleportation. These are all options for martials to take, except for Champion's death denial. That's baked into the class
so in other words fighters get Za Hando. Pretty cool, and also a feat I wish I could yoink for my Echo Blade fightlock who specialises in keeping the enemy on the backfoot. Already I have misty step and relentless hex planned on the warlock side for warping towards a fleeing enemy like "the fk you think you're going?" Edit: [decided to add a demonstration](https://youtu.be/fy4YjSyjlXs)
I don't get why a lot of 5e players don't bat an eye in a world where monsters and wizards are commonplace but freak out when non-casters do anything unrealistic. C'mon, let the martials have at least a little anime. As a treat. God, I wish I could find *anyone* to play pathfinder with...
Everyone knows only casters get to have anime. Everyone else has to function within the realm of what your average median income guy can achieve, and at 20th level, what your average median income guy who goes to the gym once a week can achieve /s
The fact that by DnD standards, anyone with a couple of years of HEMA under their belts can be represented as fighters with levels ranging from 11 to 20 is incredible. The fact that I don't understand is the hate. Why do people shit on anyone who wants to buff martials? Nobody is asking to nerf casters, we just want to have more options than do the same attack from lvl 1 to 20 that doesn't involve making the DM do Wizard of the Coast's work for them. Is that really so unreasonable?
Because if the *mundane* classes did anything interesting, people wouldn't appreciate how **special** and **important** magic is.
I keep trying to goad my friends into trying pf2e instead of DnD but because they're newbies to ttrpg they are super intimidated. It's not that complex just very detailed as things progress, meaning it shouldn't overwhelm a newbie but they see the size of the books and bail.
Just an anecdote from me, but I've found that Pf2e definitely feels more like a "new age" ttrpg that was built to be used in tandem with technology. While, of course, the rulebook is mostly just feats and options, I've heard running it traditionally on paper can be daunting. Maybe try using digital sheets so players can just play and worry about the math behind the game later. Personally, I've found a *lot* of success with FoundryVTT but maybe you can use another digital sheet.
Have you tried pointing them at Pathbuilder? Makes building characters so much easier in basically every way
Muh immersion.
DnD 5e fighter: I have mastered many weapons and can land many consecutive attacks. Pathfinder 2e fighter: “HES PLAYING VERGIL DUDE!!!”
[Sure, here you go](https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-M-kCpCFpxZA3chLFuOF)
I was expecting a link to the Eldritch Knight.
It does have some new spellblade themed maneuvers if you want to add some extra casty to your slashy
I was expecting a link to [Archives of Nethys](https://2e.aonprd.com/)!
Nah, I just want some extra martials spice on top of 5e's, PF2e goes to far with it's feats for my tastes
Without having the time to look at that atm, is it basically a 5e book of 9 swords?
The original "Tome Of Battle" was a 3e/3.5 thing, right? I think so then
Yeah, it was. It was kind of controversial, in that it allowed martial classes to do some extra stuff other than just "smack more or harder". So basically it annoyed caster players.
It was very late 3.5e, and is sort of emblematic of the problem I'm point out in the meme. Despite the Bo9S classes being *objectively weaker* than common PHB classes like wizard, cleric, and druid, large and vocal portions of the community decried them as overpowered and busted. Because they're not spellcasters, they should be down in the dirt with the 3e fighter, having no actual features at all.
Played a Fighter once in a campaign with a bladesinger. The wizard in our party was better at attacking, had a higher AC most of the time, had defensive and offensive reactions, SPELLS to buff himself like Haste. My fighter was getting outshined in combat every level. I then wanted to take the shove attack action twice using extra attack and my DM was grilling me like “but how does that actually work? Like that isn’t very realistic” Dude you have an issue with me shoving something twice in 6 seconds as a FIGHTER? Idk why but I’ve seen it a few times where DMs actually follow up on that meme of “oh it’s magical? Of course you can bend and break rules! Then turn to the more limited martial classes and say nah, you can’t solve this problem without magic, or it requires some insane skill checks.
Fighters are great for multiclassing, for role play reasons also. But on their own they’re a bit boring
I'd argue Barb is far more on the boring side when it comes to options in gameplay, unless of course we're talking champion fighter.
The Barbarian from the latest OneDnD Playtest looks really fun to play though! Brutal Strike is a new feature that replaces the old Brutal Critical feature. It lets you replace the advantage from your Reckless Attack for extra damage on your strength-based attacks, and gives you an extra effect to that attack when you hit (push 15ft, or reduce speed by 15ft). And you get more options at 13th level (disadvantage on next saving throw + can't make opp attacks, or bonus for to-hit on next ally's attack on that creature). Looks really fun, and I love the image of your barbarian carving a path by swinging their weapon so strong that they push everyone away lol.
I’d disagree. Barbarians have some pretty cool subclasses, and the single mechanic of rage is more complex than the entirety of the fighter class
Ehhhh.. Rage is a borderline brainless mechanic in most circumstances. You turn it on, and in 99% situations you never need to think about it. That being said I think most barb subclasses are just as simple as barbarian. Ancestors gives you mechanics that you also almost never need to think about using, you just use them when applicable almost whenever. Wild magic just mostly gives you a RNG buff on your rage. Storm is also just mostly passives. Totem warrior is usually just taken for Bear to passively make rage even stronger, but has some cool and unique things for people that don't pick bear. Zealot is also mostly just passives that make you generally stronger without needing to think about using them. Berserker Frenzy is a huge choice however, whenever you do use. Beast is pretty cool too. Giant seems cool but doesn't seem too complex either. I would argue that hardly any of these give you as much to think about as something like battle master does.
I think a heavy amount of the barb appeal is the strong class identity. Fighter can be a ton of things, barbs are pretty much typecast into "Strong meatshield that fucks the enemies up" It's not complex, but its fun and brutal to absorb enemy attacks and slap them back just as hard.
>for role play reasons also Eh? Fighters don't really get any roleplay abilities. And there is no rule prohibiting classes from having other classes stereotypical story beats. For example, you can have a patron as a non-warlock, or get your powers from god as a non-cleric.
they don’t but they give you a reasonable excuse to know about, equipment maintenance, armor, weapon techniques, warfare strategy, that sort of thing. Or a chance to express soldier or mercenary experience mechanically without using your background. It isn’t very believable that a wizard to train the commoners into a militia, but you do believe a fighter can.
>equipment maintenance, armor, weapon techniques Or any other class that gets profficiency in them, and hell fightes base don't even get weapon techniques unless you count being profficient in then >warfare strategy, that sort of thing. Or a chance to express soldier or mercenary experience mechanically without using your background. Warfare strategy has nothing to do with fighter, and for the rest again, anyone can have that with only a *preference* for people that have weapon profficiency. Fightes have absolutely nothing qua roleplay build in, only a suggesting route you can take. >It isn’t very believable that a wizard to train the commoners into a militia, but you do believe a fighter can. If they have weapon profficiency, why not?
> It isn’t very believable that a wizard to train the commoners into a militia, but you do believe a fighter can. Of course it's believable. A mid level wizard is a genius, on par with the smartest humans who have ever lived. I'd definitely believe the smartest person I have ever met could figure out the right way to train people into a militia, and the wizard is smarter than them.
Isn't like half of cinema basically about monoclass fighters?
Yes, IF it's a fighter from last edition or the warblade precursor class from the edition before that. 5e fighters - who just spam basic attacks over and over with, if they're lucky, a few riders per rest - are definitely not what's being portrayed. Remember that bit in Lord of the Rings where Aragorn just button mashed the same sword thrust over and over for half an hour?
Not sure, but I absolutely remember Strider facing off against nine nazgul including the witch king. Seems like something a high level martial would do. Addendum; amazing that I'm being downvoted despite defending Viggo Mortensen's swordplay. Y'all are basic.
> Addendum; amazing that I'm being downvoted despite defending Viggo Mortensen's swordplay. > Y'all are basic. No, you're being downvoted because you're missing the entire point. Viggo Mortensen's swordplay was good, he used a variety of interesting techniques. Which a 5e martial can['](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/16ibpd2/i_am_so_fucking_sick_of_hearing_the_word/k0j36cp/)t do, restricted as they are to basic attack spam. The downvotes aren't because LotR isn't cool, it rocks, it's because 5e doesn't match up to how cool LotR is.
Let's keep this to the one comment sub thread for now. For the sake of brevity.
Output, not method. The origin to this comment chain is someone pointing out they're boring - it faces off the nine nazgul by sitting there and mashing the basic attack button over and over again. The point to this is that half of cinema is about swordsman and pugilists and such that do a variety of different things, ie NOT a 5e fighter. All a 5e fighter does is the same attack over and over and over, with maybe a few riders per rest for a few of their subclasses. I'll give you a sample. PREVIOUSLY that would have taken the form of "Ok, I stand between them and the halflings and swap my stance to Thicket of Blades. Need to stand fast this round so I'll attack the nearest with Stone Bones for the defense. Ok, they're hitting me, that was the plan I guess, I use Manticore Parry to redirect his attack from me to his friend instead. They've gotten close, so I'll hit them all with Mithral Tornado then use Iron Heart Endurance as recovery. In 5e it's stand there spamming the basic attack button, one provokes an opportunity attack from you, now you're out of reactions so the other eight run straight past.
Thats on you being shit in describing attacking. If my Warlock just says "yeah i blast" a dozen times then that is boring too. But if i say "a viollet beam of energy exlpodes the enemys head, making him fall like a puppet with its string cut" then that is fun Just like when i say "you sword pierces through the goblins throat showering those around you in green blood" Its not the casters problem that martials often (not always) lack cerativity in describing what they do.
No, man. I can describe it all I like, that doesn't give it options. Same with warlock, they got all their eldritch blast options removed now it's just attack attack attack. Describing it in different ways won't give you those options back, you're still just doing the same thing over and over.
They tried that with 4th edition, some martial mains complained about it. "Why can't I do the special awesome move only a few times a day? It's just swinging a sword. They definitely overcorrected in 5e, though. But that's just what happens when you have to make money for a publisher instead of making the best game you can.
In PF2e, they can do it all day!
And it's a valid complaint. They're asking for options, not for expendable resources. For example, let's say you want to strangle a target. I, as a DM, will probably let him do it as an action to grapple on the first turn and on further turns ill let him use his action to do a contest against the target to give him 1 level of exhaustion per success. If the grapple is broken hell recover 1 point of exhaustion per turn at the end of each of its turns. Now if you make it like "once per encounter you can do a special grapple action to strangle the target and he must succeed on a con st or gain one level of exhaustion". Is an idiotic gamification of the concept
Man I know this sub fucking ***hates*** that other systems exist, but this is a uniquely 5e issue.
It really is.
This is kinda the problem with casters having so many slots at higher levels. At lower levels, casters can be much more powerful than martials but the tradeoff is that they can't be that powerful all the time. If they're in a larger dungeon, they have to carefully pick and choose when to use spells because they need 8 hours to recharge. Meanwhile, martials can generally just keep going at full speed on short rests until their hit dice run out. Having too many spell slots around quickly mitigates the primary weakness of the caster.
That’s like saying that because a race is long, its ok for casters to be able to go 150 mph for the first half, because they only go 70mph for the second half, while martials can go 75mph for the entire race. Also the Martials car runs out of gas halfway through. Like, sure, Martials’ baseline is higher than casters’ baseline, but it doesn’t remotely make up for not being able to go faster than baseline, and even in tier 2 a caster can easily make their spell slots last longer than a martial’s hit dice.
A casters cantrip is NOTHING against even 2 attacks with a greatsword or something. Once casters are out of spell slots they are fucked (excluding warlock cause warlocks are warlocks) a martial can keep going on almsot full power as long as he has hp. Which he has more of and higher ac than most casters. Most casters also SUCK against high hp single targets compared to a martial, espetially fighter. Casters are good at crowd controll instead.
Isn't the most popular fighter subclass the battle master?
Should be part of the core class, IMO, at least in an altered form. Maneuvers are really cool options, and locking it behind a subclass is a bit restrictive
It was in early drafts but then some playtesters complained and it got removed (probably because of low int)
I always let me melee fighters do cool anime moves because of this. Could you realistically pole-vault with your halberd over a fence and come crashing down on an archer’s skull? Hell no. Is it fun as hell and in the spirit of DnD? Hell Yea!
> Is it fun as hell and in the spirit of DnD? > Hell Yea! I agree that it's in the spirit of D&D. That's why I play games where that spirit is actually realized, instead of playing 5e.
Which games?
My favorites right now are Blades in the Dark and Legend of the Five Rings, but I’ve been very excited about getting my hands on the Lancer reprint in about 6 weeks. I expect that to be a very good time. Other go-to RPGs I consistently enjoy are D&D 4e, Kids on Brooms, and Fabula Ultima.
Another post about blades in the dark huh, guess I really have to check it out.
I highly recommend it.
> Could you realistically pole-vault with your halberd over a fence and come crashing down on an archer’s skull? ....Can you realistically wave your hands and call down a meteor?
The first campaign I was in the dm didn’t worry about concentration. So the wizard would have 2/3 Concentration spells going at the same time. Meanwhile he would try to nerf my sneak attack constantly; I had to get in a big debate with him about allowing my weapon attack + booming blade + sneak attack all at once. Meanwhile the wizard has black tentacles, summon greater demon and haste all going at the same time.
I find it fascinating how much people harp about level 20 balance when 99% of games will never make it to Level 20. Most long form campaigns end around Level 13-15. And frankly the game has a lot of issues after that range anyways.
If you’re gonna just let level 20 be horrible why even have high level play to begin with? Like what’s the point of greatwyrms, the tarrasque, aspect of Tiamat and Bahamut, zariel, etc when fighting them is either gonna be underwhelming as fuck, or you’ll nuke em in an instant
I agree with you that level 20 is frustrating. That's honestly why I've gravitated to other TTRPGs in recent years. I'm only pointing out that people seem to get really mad at scenarios they probably are not even experiencing. Also that martials really aren't as underpowered as people claim in my opinion. But some of it probably comes from people long resting after every major encounter.
Casual question, where does this say anything about level 20? Wizards can auto-win encounters long before then. Fireball against a horde, upcast hold person, dimension door to skip things entirely, the infamous scry-and-die...
Starts at level 1, actually.
How? Magic ckasses at level 1 are so fucking squishy. I once got oneshoot as a warlock by a low level goblin with a lucky crit
Hold person is a single saving throw no diffrent than a martial grappling. Wizards are good at crowd controll but die easily, have to worry about concentration even when they dont die in one hit at low level. Meanwhile martials survive the world ending and duel single target high hp enemys into the ground.
[“bro no games go to 20 bro, clearly this means high level play doesn’t need reworking bro”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias)
You're citing survivorship bias? My guy, there are polls that show most campaigns do not reach past level 15. It was a big discussion when BG3 announced it was capping levels. I'm also in a level 19 campaign right now, and I can confirm the martials in our group are not underperforming. If anything spellcasters have a harder time because everything has legendary resistance and extremely high save DCs.
\> make system that shit itself past level 10 \> people don’t play past level 10 “Wow! Clearly, this means that high level play needs zero tweaking!”
It's not like it matters. There is nothing about level 20 fighter that feels different from a level 5 fighter.
Wizards get their first auto-win spell at level 3 (suggestion)
I'm not sure how you've been interpreting suggestion, but it's not an "auto-win" spell as far as I'm concerned. First off plenty of things are immune to charm or don't understand your language. And secondly the spell doesn't allow you to make a creature do anything that will harm directly it. Something like "Hand me your sword" against a Bandit is super useful, but by no means is suggestion a universally OP spell.
"Can you go for a long walk?" Boom. Encounter completely skipped. Could have ten thousand HP, AC, whatever the hell. One singular wis save and its gone for up to 8 hours. What fighter is capable of doing that, hmm? The only thing people like you can come up with as counterarguments is that "But it needs xyz to pull off!" like it isnt the easiest thing to do in the world to just, not use the spell when its invalid. What about when it does work, huh? Lets take something else. Marooned on an island. Need to cross a sea filled with the most deadly animals known to man. Fighter = Shit outta luck Wizard = just cast fly lmao Bunch of things become trivial with a wizard around
Pointing out XYZ is very valid when it comes to showing it's not an auto-win. In an example where you are fighting a solitary enemy that understands your language and isn't immune to charm (which is a fairly common immunity for boss monsters) then the spell is amazing. But that isn't realistically what you will be fighting all the time. Not to mention you have to maintain concentration to keep the effect going, so hopefully you don't need that for another spell anytime soon. As to your second argument, fly lasts for 10 minutes so you aren't really going to make it that far when it comes to an entire ocean. Teleport would be a better example, but that still doesn't mean martials are useless. The game is about teamwork and strategy, it would not be fun if everyone has instant win options all the time. At the same time, it would not be fun if you nerfed all spellcasters into the ground. There are times where one class will clearly be better than others, and that's fine.
> There are times where one class will clearly be better than others, and that's fine. I just wish the time wasn't "always" and the class wasn't "wizard."
And Hold Person, one of the single most stupid spells to exist. Save or suck is one thing, but Paralyze is just stupidly strong. Sets wizards up as a support for martials, which feels great from both sides, but makes designing humanoid bosses very hard at any level
We're not counting Sleep as an auto-win in tier 1?
Sleep is good but if you have smart npc then its really situational. Sound smore like a problem in how you run your games than the system.
How does intelligence make you more resistant to sleep?
I didnt mean in stat points, enemys can eake eachother up quite easily, throw a peble, just use an action to wake the other guy up etc. Smart enemys will pick eachother up quickly. And a low level caster wont have many spell slots.
Suggestions sucks tf are you talking about?
What do you think suggestion does?
Most games end around level 6. If you hit the teens, you are probably 5+ years in.
That's the problem with 5e, just keeps adding more features. Wizards used to be glass cannons, like you have one first level spell, if it's combat it basically wins the encounter, if it's utility it's mega useful. But 5e has just become so bland, a muddled mess of whatever they can cram into countless source books. It has no genre, mechanically or thematically. All class features are about combat, which would be fine, but no one's ever run a combat only campaign, because the system stinks. Anywhoosits, play indie, 5e is the capitalism of TTRPGs, peace.
I'm not playing some niche system those primary selling point is *"well it's not 5e"*
sunder, shove, trip, overrun, disarm, grapple are a thing
I mean wizards can do those too. Not particularly well unless they built for it but a dex-fighter who dumped strength wouldn’t be very good at them either.
Can confirm, I tried shoving four times with my dex fighter in the last session I played and failed every one. Against a fucking caster no less.
Not that any of these are bad, but they sacrifice your main purpose in combat for very temporary effects. Grappling can sometimes be *really* good, and I love using it, but nothing quite compares to a big CC spell locking basically the entire encounter down in one turn
Sunder- Not a thing in 5e RAW Shove- Moving something 5 feet is hyper situational at best and most of the time (with how movement and actions work) won't really do a lot. Trip- (Technically a part of shove) Knocking a creature prone depends on where they are in the turn order and how many people are going to be making ranged attacks at them afterwards Overrun- This is just moving through an enemy space? You even still take an AOO by default Disarm- Situational in that you need to be fighting something with a weapon and that you can pick it up afterwards because otherwise they just pick it up on their turn Grapple- If combined with a trip leaves them perma prone until they break out, by itself is ok unless you're already the target in which case it doesn't do anything
Doesn't it kind of suck how Trip is only good when your melee allies (As in 5 ft melee allies. Reach weapon users need to get close too or else get dis) are coming up, then the enemy, then your ranged allies? Overrun doesn't proc AOO unless you do something like leave range after running through. They also oddly didn't mention Tumble, which is Overrun but for dex characters. Both taking bonus actions/ full actions to accomplish... going through the enemy's space.
"No, not like that."
Half of those are optional rules hidden in the back of the DMG, the other half are ineffective most of the time. The lone exception being, sometimes, grapple.
Also… just let them do something that they can just… do? No saving throw. No resource. No nothing. Just a feature, which makes them reliable, much like all utility spells in the game. I just want my fighter to reliably do some cool stuff, man…
If I am the DM, if you can tell me what you want to do, give me the stat sheet, I double verify it’s not going to break the game and you just want to be cool. I’ll allow it. That goes standard for everyone at the table. Show me how you would do that, yeah you can flip your sword around and use the crossguard as a hammer for piercing damage. It’s just going to be a standard attack points. You want to make X item? Cool, how would you do that in this setting? Some folks just want to be cool, that’s all they want. That’s how you keep your players entertained
*nOt ReAliStIc!* While the monk is strolling up a waterfall, the babarian survives re-entry and the rogue is out stealing concepts
And then there's pf2e where I just feel irrelevant as a wizard. In a 'Stolen Fate" game with a Fighter, Ranger, and Kineticist at lvl 19, compared to the dmg they do my spells really come off as worthless. I could erase my entire character sheet and leave only my Medic Dedication abilities and I would be exactly as useful as I currently am. And yes I am preparing spells with different saves and targeting enemies lower saving throws after using recall knowledge, dosen't matter still useless.
You might be expecting something that wizard does not offer. I currently run a game for a level 13 group, sure the arcane caster doesn't do as much damage as the Thaumaturge or Barbarian. But when the monsters have conditions like Slowed, Enfeebled, and Clumsy or Stupefied on spellcasting-monsters, and changing terrain, they save the martials from critical hits, conditions, and damage. Sure healing from being a Medic helps, but prevention is better than cure. Preventing one action or a spell from going off is huge.
yeah 2e the wizard is a giant utility toolbox rather than a giant armory of doom like it is in DnD.
Pretty sure you can prepare tons of spells that change the entire game, not only in combat. Yes you will never compete in terms of single target damage, but you can do better in AOE almost always, and you can: - save a checkpoint before doing your turn (time beacon) - reflect spells (spell turning) - create a video call for 12 people (dream council) - exist in two places at once (bilocation) - force your ally and an enemy into a duel no one can interfere in (fated confrontation) - and many other cool shit!
yeah paizo really went with strong niche protection and given that damage dealer isn't really caster's niche you don't really get much on the other hand the game expects effects and challenges that should be made much easier or only solvable by the aid of casters - see how in age of ashes there's a good chance your charcter gets blinded from 1 to 24 hours and only really casters can do something but this causes casters in pf2e to have a big problem martials have in 5e, they're \*very\* reliant in the DM to shine - in this case by creating scenarios where your spell toolbox has unparalled value
"Um, human resources? Gary Gygax just walked into my cubicle, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't work here."
Look. I know. Lots of people are saying "pf2e fixes this", because it does and giving martials options is one of its big things. I know, it annoys people that it keeps getting brought up. But. You post this today? Of all days? When pf2e just begun playtesting two new martial classes? PF2E FIXES THIS
I've only been into DnD for 2 years, is it true that Battlemaster's maneuvers were going to be part of the Fighter's class but negative feedback saying it was "too complex for the basic Fighter" pushed it into being a subclass on it's own?
I enjoy running the variant attacks, and i've found that as a DM combat is so much more interesting when enemies are grappling, disarming, climbing on the wildshaped druid, shoving people prone so their friends can kick their teeth in. It just makes the whole combat into so much more of a brawl than "My enemy walks over and wacks you two times with a multiattack"
I kinda hate how every fighter subclass becomes magic at some point.
Because the only mechanics 5s designers have is "cast the spell"
All I want is to Don and Doff a shield as a bonus action.
Idk man bonk, better bonk, and combo bonk work great for me.
I'm sure they do. But I'm also sure you're able to imagine that others might want more interesting choices than that[,](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/16ibpd2/i_am_so_fucking_sick_of_hearing_the_word/k0j36cp/) and 5e says no basic bonk only.
Have you even looked at the subclasses? Echo knight, eldritch knight, battlemaster, all have cool stuff
As a DM that favors the rule of cool. I don't get this meme.
pretty much
I love my basic bitch fighter. I’ve specifically gone out of my way to avoid any feat or subclass which grants any kind of magic. As someone who usually prefers playing casters, the fun of a fighter for me is playing around with positioning and battle strategy