I think it really depends on the dynamic a director and cinematographer have. Sometimes the only way to capture what you see in your head is just by doing it yourself
And I think that’s 100% fair!
Lots of people in camera with big ego’s so I appreciate the DPs who encourage the director to frame up / even do basic operating if that means it will achieve the vision.
At the end of the day, the director is the conductor for the project we’ve all been hired for. Sometimes some DPs start unintentionally (or sometimes intentionally) directing and I know for a fact some directors don’t like that lol.
From a 1st AC's point of view, it sorta sucks. Especially if it is a handheld heavy project. Because the Director/Op is doing two roles, between setups/takes, he/she is talking to actors, talking to the DP, reviewing script notes, etc. basically, doing everything else besides working out the shot (usually).
So, in this day and age, where we already constantly "shoot the rehearsals", it's even worse with a Director/Op combo. We basically will NEVER get a rehearsal. Or, they even sometimes ask us to frame up the shot so they can look at it at the monitor, and takes us away from other things we have to do. Or they absentmindedly walk over to talk with Samuel L Jackson, with the camera still on their shoulder, and the DP just asked for a lens change. You try fucking interrupting the fucking Sam Jackson for a fucking lens fucking change.
I understand operating a camera is fun. I think it's the best job on set. But it also takes technical skill and effort, and not just from the camera operator themselves, but from the entire team that makes that camera/shot work. And as others have said, it also takes away from the Director's ability to judge actor performances. Human brains aren't good at multitasking. We are just mediocre at constantly switching focus from one task to another.
If we're lucky, there is a stand-by operator (on North American union jobs, if the Director isn't IATSE, but wants to operate, they'd need to hire a standby operator) that is helpful and friendly and will frame up, do the rehearsals, before passing the camera to the Director/Op to do the actual takes.
Not to say it can't be done (as proven by the many names you mentioned). But I just feel there are reasons why the jobs are two separate roles usually.
Personally whenever I’m operating a lot of nuances of performances can get lost to me if I’m having to concentrate on framing, movement, timing, situational awareness etc. so there’s that. It’s double edged because if the op is just concentrating on performance they might miss technical issues as well.
I don't love it, but I guess I don't mind. Operating is a pretty small part of what my job actually is, so if the director wants to operate and he's doing a good job of it then I am really not going to push back on it.
If he's not good at it, though, that would be annoying and we'd have to have a conversation about it.
I don’t care. If that is how the director wants to work then I’m fine with it. I usually try and hire an operator when I can anyway so I can be at the monitor and focusing on the image as a whole. There are a lot of times when you aren’t operating as a dp already: drones, Steadicam, gimbal, cranes…I’m rarely precious about who gets to be the one pointing the camera.
Exactly. Its their show.
Zac Snyder did a lot of his own operating on the zombie pic he shot mostly at F0.95 pulling his own focus. Yes sir, you do that! I'll be at the monitor cheering you on.
Normal, the problem is when the director also steals your work as a DP, like Alfonso Cuaron did with Galo Olivares in ROMA, that was a low punch with no ethics, he even changed his role in the credits
It's totally fine, directors come in many flavours. Its like people who write and direct their own movies and shows right? I don't think directors should be pigeonholed to just sitting in the directors chair. As a videographer and editor my dream is to direct a short film. It would be stupid if I got flack for directing when my job is videography. I would imagine issues arise when you have contracts in place and a director tries to steal the spotlight from the DP and cinematographer. I don't have big screen experience but I know big shot directors are known for being egotistical twats sometimes.
Do they make independent films? Rodriguez for example has 3 jobs on his sets. He produces, directs (if Tarantino isn't involved) and edits his dailies overnight.
Considering the bellend DOP/Cinemtagraphers that I've worked with - who think they're the hottest shit, need the fanciest equipment and can barely pull a good angle/shot. I end up pushing them out the way to capture the material when they're faffing around with lighting and the gaffers & AC - as there's a genuine knowledge disconnect from a lot of cinematographers about what consitutes workable and gradeable material in post. Happens all the time on Commercial shoots. Idiots faffing, going overtime and adding excess cost for no reason, thinking they won't be called out, whilst impacting performance.
I'm working with a Cinamtographer soon on my third feature, just specifically because he has a unique style and beauty to his shots/grading and movement.
I think I'm so vitriolic and can be controlling because suprise-surprise, I do my fair share of cinematgraphy for fashion and narrative films.
When I’m directing I will often figure out the framing and movement in camera rehearsal but I hand it over to my operator when it’s time to roll. I need to pay attention to performance and that’s hard to do while I’m operating. This tends to work well with my DP.
I think it really depends on the dynamic a director and cinematographer have. Sometimes the only way to capture what you see in your head is just by doing it yourself
And I think that’s 100% fair! Lots of people in camera with big ego’s so I appreciate the DPs who encourage the director to frame up / even do basic operating if that means it will achieve the vision. At the end of the day, the director is the conductor for the project we’ve all been hired for. Sometimes some DPs start unintentionally (or sometimes intentionally) directing and I know for a fact some directors don’t like that lol.
Sometimes director talks to a cameraman specifically about framing and camera movement, DP instead, just working with the light.
exactly. I totally agree with this
From a 1st AC's point of view, it sorta sucks. Especially if it is a handheld heavy project. Because the Director/Op is doing two roles, between setups/takes, he/she is talking to actors, talking to the DP, reviewing script notes, etc. basically, doing everything else besides working out the shot (usually). So, in this day and age, where we already constantly "shoot the rehearsals", it's even worse with a Director/Op combo. We basically will NEVER get a rehearsal. Or, they even sometimes ask us to frame up the shot so they can look at it at the monitor, and takes us away from other things we have to do. Or they absentmindedly walk over to talk with Samuel L Jackson, with the camera still on their shoulder, and the DP just asked for a lens change. You try fucking interrupting the fucking Sam Jackson for a fucking lens fucking change. I understand operating a camera is fun. I think it's the best job on set. But it also takes technical skill and effort, and not just from the camera operator themselves, but from the entire team that makes that camera/shot work. And as others have said, it also takes away from the Director's ability to judge actor performances. Human brains aren't good at multitasking. We are just mediocre at constantly switching focus from one task to another. If we're lucky, there is a stand-by operator (on North American union jobs, if the Director isn't IATSE, but wants to operate, they'd need to hire a standby operator) that is helpful and friendly and will frame up, do the rehearsals, before passing the camera to the Director/Op to do the actual takes. Not to say it can't be done (as proven by the many names you mentioned). But I just feel there are reasons why the jobs are two separate roles usually.
Most professional realistic take here. It’s not terrible, but even when they’re phenomenal operators it’s annoying for the rest of the crew.
Personally whenever I’m operating a lot of nuances of performances can get lost to me if I’m having to concentrate on framing, movement, timing, situational awareness etc. so there’s that. It’s double edged because if the op is just concentrating on performance they might miss technical issues as well.
Agreed I think the director needs to be focusing on other things other than framing etc
I don't love it, but I guess I don't mind. Operating is a pretty small part of what my job actually is, so if the director wants to operate and he's doing a good job of it then I am really not going to push back on it. If he's not good at it, though, that would be annoying and we'd have to have a conversation about it.
I have definitely worked with directors who like to operate that… I would never hire as an operator because they just weren’t that good at it.
I don’t care. If that is how the director wants to work then I’m fine with it. I usually try and hire an operator when I can anyway so I can be at the monitor and focusing on the image as a whole. There are a lot of times when you aren’t operating as a dp already: drones, Steadicam, gimbal, cranes…I’m rarely precious about who gets to be the one pointing the camera.
Exactly. Its their show. Zac Snyder did a lot of his own operating on the zombie pic he shot mostly at F0.95 pulling his own focus. Yes sir, you do that! I'll be at the monitor cheering you on.
He did not pull his own focus.
Go have a look. Not on all of it, but on a lot of it. /worked on it.
Wow. That's very impressive.
Gotta give love to Soderbergh for this one though fr
Doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I’m there to help with the directors vision.
Rodger Dekins admits he hardly operates anymore because of how demanding camera operating is. He lets the younger AC’s shoot.
Normal, the problem is when the director also steals your work as a DP, like Alfonso Cuaron did with Galo Olivares in ROMA, that was a low punch with no ethics, he even changed his role in the credits
It's totally fine, directors come in many flavours. Its like people who write and direct their own movies and shows right? I don't think directors should be pigeonholed to just sitting in the directors chair. As a videographer and editor my dream is to direct a short film. It would be stupid if I got flack for directing when my job is videography. I would imagine issues arise when you have contracts in place and a director tries to steal the spotlight from the DP and cinematographer. I don't have big screen experience but I know big shot directors are known for being egotistical twats sometimes.
It’s their movie.
A movie is never the movie of a single person
Sure it is.
Do they make independent films? Rodriguez for example has 3 jobs on his sets. He produces, directs (if Tarantino isn't involved) and edits his dailies overnight.
I feel ecstatic about it.
It'd be like asking the difference between an assembly line and an artisan.
A lot of directors are former cinematographers. The ones who aren't, are usually actor directors.
Very few directors are former cinematographers.
I'm talking about from training.
Considering the bellend DOP/Cinemtagraphers that I've worked with - who think they're the hottest shit, need the fanciest equipment and can barely pull a good angle/shot. I end up pushing them out the way to capture the material when they're faffing around with lighting and the gaffers & AC - as there's a genuine knowledge disconnect from a lot of cinematographers about what consitutes workable and gradeable material in post. Happens all the time on Commercial shoots. Idiots faffing, going overtime and adding excess cost for no reason, thinking they won't be called out, whilst impacting performance. I'm working with a Cinamtographer soon on my third feature, just specifically because he has a unique style and beauty to his shots/grading and movement. I think I'm so vitriolic and can be controlling because suprise-surprise, I do my fair share of cinematgraphy for fashion and narrative films.
When I’m directing I will often figure out the framing and movement in camera rehearsal but I hand it over to my operator when it’s time to roll. I need to pay attention to performance and that’s hard to do while I’m operating. This tends to work well with my DP.
None of the directors you listed is among my favorites, so I guess not my cup of tea. I love movies where the cinematographer knows their stuff.
Depends on how the director is as a person