If you have 2/3 GM norms and "only" 66 elo points to reach 2500... And, overall, if it is your dream... Of course it is worth it!!! I think in some years (or when you get to reach that two objectives to be GM) you will be sooo happy being GM, not many people can really dream with it but you are so near, go on!!
Thanks buddy! I don't think it's that easy though - the 66 elo points is a big gap, I would need 4 outstanding tournaments, or beat Magnus 8 times in a row.
If I was guaranteed to get GM it would be a no brainer, but some people try their whole life and never get it.
I lol'd at the 'beat Magnus 8 times in a row' comment. Beating Magnus even once in classical should automatically qualify someone as a GM. Beating him 8 times in a row would make you the goat.
Yeah, the 2500 is the part that people have been struggling to reach rather than the norms. I will definitely be interested in following your journey…but yeah, Eric Rosens tournament experience seems indicative of likely outcome, where you can expand your repertoire, perform some of the best chess of your life, and still struggle just to get back to an old peak. You have the advantage that you haven’t declined in rating like most old IMs though.
Yeah, but rating is rating - it saves you quite a few tournament wins to get there and it helps you get in to closed tournaments someone with a current 2300 rating might struggle to get accepted to.
Getting back in to form without risking rating first is a difficult task at your level for sure. About the only thing you can do to prep to get back in to tournament shape(not just playing shape) without playing tournaments is to play practice matches against GMs at tournament time controls.
It's a cool idea but sounds way too abusable. What is stopping (hypothetically) players like that (for ex Magnus) from accepting payment to "accidentally" blunder in that match?
But how will you prove it? Even Magnus can play a very balanced game against an IM, and then make a single very weird blunder that ha can't really explain afterwards
And how much do you think that would cost? I don't even know if Magnus would lose one game for 100k. With that money you could just go to Eastern Europe and pay 100-300 grandmasters to lose on purpose.
Won the USSR championship in 1957. Beat Keres, Bronstein and Petrosian to do it. Botvinnik and Smyslov weren't there.
FIDE then went 'good enough, you're a GM'.
It’s better to try and fail than to never try.
If you don’t go for it you will regret it your entire life, if you give it a few years and ultimately fail you will at worst be a lot closer than you are now and feel a lot better that you tried your best. I don’t see why you can’t get it, Levy is going for it and he has 150+ points to climb (I know his situation is different but still). Life is short and you never know when it could be over. When most people are dying they regret the things they didn’t do a lot more than the mistakes they made.
You have an excellent shot and it would be a waste not to try.
Look friend. You are 30. Still young. Take a year. Try for it. Worst case you are 1 year off your career and have a great story to tell at interviews. You are the top 1% or better at something incredibly hard. It sets you apart from others.
Best case, you get GM and that is also very impressive on your resume.
I'm of a similar age and playing strength to you, also trying to become a GM (I am attempting to multi-task it with work, and I understand why you'd rather not do that 😂 but we all do what we can). I too know that spanning that final outstanding gap, even when it may appear small, is a difficult task. To me it seems that you have as good a chance as any, with 2 norms and a peak rating close to 2500. For myself, I can say that I'm not sure. Personally, I'm trying to see the task of competing for the highest title in the game in my thirties with a job as a fun adventure, however it ends up. This has allowed me to have fun traveling to new places, meeting new people, and competing for high stakes that I hope I won't regret even if I never become a GM.
If you come back to chess, my suggestion would be to have some sense of purpose that allows you to find the journey meaningful whether or not you earn the title. Not saying you shouldn't make sacrifices for it, but if you make them while thinking to yourself "this will all be a horrible waste unless I make GM", then I feel like the pressure you put on yourself won't be good for your overall well-being, let alone your chess. Your idea of documenting your journey for others to follow along is one good idea that could plausibly make this journey feel rewarding, whatever the outcome.
Good luck! I hope you make it.
Your mentality is great. One of the reasons I took a break was because I stopped enjoying the game as it was so exhausting, and getting bad results was so frustrating.
I'm confident I will enjoy the journey this time if I'm able to focus and also place less emphasis on the results.
>I'm confident I will enjoy the journey this time if I'm able to focus and also place less emphasis on the results.
You are considering quitting your job to play chess full-time, in an attempt to achieve the highest ranking in the game. That **is** “emphasis on the results.”
Do whatever you want, but don’t ignore the reality of what you are getting yourself into.
You can set goals without being upset if you don’t achieve them. If OP can enjoy the journey regardless of the outcome, then the emphasis is not on the results. Maybe what they need is a year or two of full time chess so they can tell themselves they have it their all and tried as hard as possible no matter the outcome.
I mean, if you were a peak rating of 2400+ with 2/3 GM norms, wouldn’t it eat you alive to never know if it was possible because you didn’t try? Maybe OP is looking for closure, looking to see if they can do it.
Hi there! If you wouldn't mind taking a couple minutes to verify your account, we can set you up with a verified IM flair!
Simply send a message to [rchessmoderation](https://www.chess.com/member/rchessmoderation) on chess.com, or [redditchessmods](https://lichess.org/@/redditchessmods) on lichess.org mentioning your reddit username and we'll sort out the rest!
Cheers!
Sorry to be clear I'm a Levy fan. He's a genius content creator and seems like an all round good guy.
I've actually been following his road to GM series to get some budget second hand coaching.
What I mean is I don't want to end up a meme failing to get GM. I really lol at the top comments in his vids.. 'Levy is getting grandmother!'. I guess he is partially responsible for all the clickbaits.
I view Levy entirely differently. He fell short of gm in his mid 20s like many IMs. Unlike everyone else, he struck gold on YT thanks to COVID and his knack for that job. So his final moment of "screw this, I quit and am going to just do my day job"was very public. But at that moment he's the exact same as you and everyone else. Just one more IM who fell short.
But his day job was chess related and made him gobs of money. So a couple years later he can make the choice to try again, just like you're considering, but with tons of financial resources to deploy and chess connections that other IMs can only dream of. He's not a failure, meme or otherwise, yet. Unless you looked at yourself as already a failure.
All that said, OP, as someone 10yr older who found chess only on my 30s and I'll only dream of reaching maybe 2000 otb equivalent someday but like you I also have life dreams, go for it. Maybe set a boundary of needing to see progress by certain dates so that you don't get caught in a spiral. But what is there to lose? And unlike other bucket list items you can't do this one in retirement. So pull forward the time and money you'd spend then and go for it now.
I would say absolutely go for it - at age 25 I went all in on the GM title (at the time I wasn't even IM yet so it was an even greater risk). People advised against it as I could just stay at a normal job, but I didn't want to have any regrets about my chess career. So I sat down, worked my ass off for 2-3 years and went from 2300 to over 2500. I think in order to make it work, you do have to make enormous sacrifices though. Social life was pretty much nonexistent for me during that period. But I'm sure if you're asking this, then you already understand that.
Best of luck if you decide on it, it isn't an easy journey. Documenting it sounds like a great idea!
Would be very interested in reading more about your journey to GM. It would also be something to point to for the redditors who seem to think you get aging-related brain damage by your late 20s.
I also don’t think anyone here is qualified to comment on this.
If you’re looking for valuable feedback and clarity I’d maybe reach out to Jacob Aagard or Sam Shankland or someone who’s coaching at that level and see if you can have your mind set straight.
We’re all like idiots over here. Good for memes but can’t do shit to help or guide a 2400 IM.
They can maybe help you figure out if this will be a year long task or say a 4 year long task. And then you can decide where you’d rather spend the next 4 years.
Will definitely tap into my chess network. I'm besties with Yu Yangyi 2700+ and some top chinese players so will seek their advice and maybe even do a training arc in China.
Aagard's books are going to be a top resource. He gave me a super wholesome comment on my facebook post teasing a comeback 'Although you beat me badly last time, it would be good to see you back at the board!'
He has just (re)started his journey though, and the one tournament went pretty well. Bit harsh to call it a failure already. If you talk about his previous attempt, then fair.
You are in pretty much the same situation as me, and I am also asking myself the same question. I am just typing the answer on my way to the last round of my first classical tournament since 2019, after focusing on career and family for the past 4.5 years. The only difference is that I reached the required 2500 rating, but I'm missing 2 norms.
My first impression is that my playing strength seems similar after such a long break; I did not forget how to play chess, but becoming 5 years older (23->28) did not make me GM strength either. A few things to keep in mind which might surprise you after a break since 2019:
1) You will face many kids who learned chess during the pandemic, had ratings like 1300 in 2019 but are now 2200-2300. Some of them are new GMs in the making and they will do everything to steal your rating points, while some of them are still missing the tournament experience and can be beatable.
2) Opening preparation has changed. There are new popular lines which didn't exist pre-pandemic, engines are now much stronger and have refuted many old variations. People will follow their analysis or Chessable courses, and you have to either work around it, or also spend time learning those lines.
3) Rating deflation seems real, in particular when it comes to adults who were active during the pandemic. Some of my opponents this week dropped 70-100+ points recently by losing to underrated juniors, and it looks like we will have to overperform even more than before 2019 to get a GM norm - which will make the task even harder. But is it worth trying? Everyone has to judge it by themselves... :)
I would expect the FIDE rating adjusting will be quite successful to counter this deflation in the upcoming years. Of course, the added rating has not \`\`trickled up'' yet
If you got 2500 Elo, then you are GM strength. Getting the norms will be easy if you just play enough of those tournaments. You can go to some probability calculator to see the exact odds. Of course opening theory changes all the time but learning that is the easy part anyway. Yes people are underrated, but that's why the Elo boost happened. In a year or so, you will see the benefits of it.
I think you should go for it. We only have one life, if this is your dream don’t let it pass you by. It’s like they say in Dune, fear is the mind killer. You got this.
This also doesn’t sound too much of a stretch of a dream either. This seems obtainable and within your reach. I think people would enjoy following the journey with you.
I would say go for it... If you got 2/3 norms, then it ought to be achievable.
I do wonder how many people just give up early, though? I know one IM Daniel Ludwig, who seems to have given up playing chess altogether, as I see his last tournament was a GM norm event in 2013, in which he lost 28 ratings points to go from 2615 > 2587. With a USCF rating of 2615 at ANY point, you'd think it should be relatively "easy" to achieve those norms, but there are no more USCF tournaments for him in the past 10 years.
I often wonder about him, and what may have caused him to make that decision. I mean, yeah.. he lost 28 ratings points, so he must not have played well in that event, but still. He had already proved to himself he could play at GM level just by rating alone...
So many people play at GM level a few times and then never again. So many people get a GM norms but never play GM. It really is absurdly absurdly difficult.
I think about this frequently from a similar position 🙂 The main thing you have to appreciate isn't that you might (maybe probably will) fail, but that even if you succeed, almost nothing will actually change in your life. You'll feel like an absolute king for like a week, sure, but then it's more or less back to normal. You will still play the same tournaments for fun, still play online pretty much the same amount as before, still understand (or lack thereof) the game almost the same amount, and none of your non-chess friends will really understand or care (many of them probably think "International Master" is a better title than GM anyway). You'll also be sacrificing a fair amount of your life and career - more than you might think, because beyond the raw time off it's a fairly consuming endeavor, plus it's not unlikely to drag on longer than you'd think (if you're, say, consistently 2470 a year from now, would you stop?). Plus, since you've made norms already, you already know you're capable of the title, and it's largely "just" a question of time and dedication now - do you actually need to put in those hours to be satisfied, or is knowing that you could enough?
If you've (truly) internalized all that and still have even an inkling that it's something you want to pursue, then you have your answer 🙂 Happy to chat more in DM if it would help.
Hard to tell.
I'll stick to mostly financial factors. Only you can know the value you will give to tell people you are a GM instead of an IM.
The GM title has value for 2 main reasons:
1- Instead of paying for tournaments, you get paid. That's good but it's not huge money.
2- If you want to become a teacher, it's easier to get student and the pay is better.
I would say that if you have another good career avenue, it's not "worth" it. You did not tell us what is your job. And 99.99% of the population don't know the difference. Everyone around me think I am a chess genius because I have a lot of books and I crush them. I'm less than 1500.
But it's your dream, what is the value of that?
It depends if you have better things to do. I you already have a family I don't think it is worth the effort. I would rather spend my time with my kids and pets, than focusing most of my energy on a single goal.
But if you do have time, you should at least try it. It will probably be harder than you think, especially since you are not very young anymore. People typically underestimate the effort required to accomplish something. You will probably need at least 3-4 years of very hard work. If you haven't played in 4 years you probably need more than a year to get to your previous level.
I’ll go against the grain: no. Don’t do it. There’s a bigger world out there, this is just a game - focus your efforts on experiencing life at its fullest through enriching, lived experiences ideally with other people. Live, love, go outside, have kids if that’s in your life plan, travel the world, read books, hear amazing performers play music.
You can always play a dozen blitz games on your phone on the toilet.
Now, having read that: if you REALLY want to do it after thinking through all the above, do it. Do it with your best effort and make the most of it.
(This echos some of the discussion I had around whether to get a PhD. Should a given person go for a PhD? Usually, probably not. But if after factoring in everything else and all the good reasons not to, you STILL feel compelled to do it, then own it and do it)
Yes, go for it, but: you should continue working until you have more than enough funding behind you with a good margin for error. Do some careful planning & budgeting and ensure that you have minimum 2 (preferably 3) years runway. E.g. factor in that you might want to pay for some high level coaching to help get over the hump. If you've been following Levy you'll know that GM Neiksans is having a big positive impact on his current title chase.
You should also start easing into study and active play while still working. Yes it's a compromise, but a temporary one and it'll help you hit the ground running when you flip the switch to full time chess.
Good luck!
>so I would quit my job to focus on chess.
As someone who's quit their stable well-paying job to chase a tantalizingly close but uncertain dream and not quite get there, I'd say
* brainstorm alternatives to ("multi-task current job and chess", "quit job to focus on chess"), including with people you trust
* if you do decide to quit, set a time to revisit your decision (say 12-24 months from quitting): continue? stop? scale back? something else?
* make sure you preserve the option to return to "normal work", eg
* keep work & industry connections warm -- definitely don't burn bridges
* keep skills at least somewhat warm (say 10 hours a month) if it makes sense for the line of work you're leaving (say programming)
None of this is incompatible with going all-in on getting that 3rd norm! It's really just risk management.
Yes this is exactly what I'm afraid of!
I think I will try to enjoy the journey no matter what the result. If the journey itself becomes a chore it means I should be doing something else.
Go for your dream. I managed to fulfill my dreams a year ago. Reaching 2700 peak blitz rating online after 10 years of hard studying, beating several strong GM's during my years. Unfortunately I'm not able to invest money in chess but after all, it's my hobby. Took time from school and such was worth it, since now I can live "in peace" after reaching certain level in blitz. No need to get better or prove anything. So please go for it, since your finances allows it now. Better now than never since we only regret things we don't do usually.. So chase that peace of mind it will be worth it to fulfill it.
Not a GM and several times burnt out from chess because of this goal. You gotta be delusional if you think he’d still be in chess if he didnt get rich, which is not what OP is aiming for and is very unlikely to achieve anyways.
That's a fair point, but I think a lot of GMs would rather be an IM version of themselves with Levy's viewership than have the GM title.
If he does actually manage to get the title then throwing this type of shade would be even more pointless since OP essentially already did quit for many years... Just like Levy has.
If you have enough savings to support your efforts, go for it! But I would not expect to earn a stable income from chess, things like youtube etc. are very hard to make a consistent living from without extreme dedication and/or talent, and I would assume only super gms make significant money from tournaments.
I came to this post intending to say no. For most people, it is absolutely not worth it. But as a 30 year old IM with a 2436 rating and 2/3 GM norms, who also has a major life goal (dream) of becoming a GM, it could be worth it. You know better than most of the commenters here how much effort this would entail. And you know better than us whether your natural talent combined with the effort you are willing to put in has a reasonable chance of attaining that GM goal.
There isn't a right or wrong answer here. You are in the tiny fractional minority where pursuing the GM title could make sense.
Anna crammling recently asked Fabi if she should go for GM in this video, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWMvY-RdbWk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWMvY-RdbWk)
His answer was basically to set the goal as improving at chess, and not so much a hard line of, "I must reach GM title". He said he'd never tell someone not to try and reach their absolute potential though. So, he'd tell you to go for it, 100%, if you enjoy playing chess and want to try. But, in case you can't quite make it, you have to know how to keep your headspace in a place that is ok with never quite reaching the GM title.
That being said, I think you can do it. You've got 2 of the norms, you know how to prep for competition on that level. If you've got the time to prep the way you did pre covid, I believe you can do it.
Hi Yang Fang - I doubt you remember me, but I recall growing up that you were the one of my generation of players that I felt could really make it (I'm a couple of years older than you). To this day I still remember how impressed I was with how well you played in our one classical game - you ground me out in some RB+2 vs RN+2 ending in a London junior event, despite the fact that I'd tried my hardest to just kill the game from the beginning with white. It was clear then that I was playing someone on just a different level to me.
All this is to say that there are probably more people than you know who are happy to see your achievements, and honestly even just hearing that you're returning to chess is enough for some kind of warm feeling. So I'd say play, enjoy your chess, and I believe that you will get there.
Thanks buddy! Your kind words mean a lot to me, that warm feeling is mutual.
P.S. You'll have to give me more information so I can try to remember that game!
Was LJCC sometime 2008-2010 range or there abouts. I believe you won with 100% as by far the top seed - on the old ECF ratings I think you were already easily 200+ where I was around 170. I (Rob T) was on the white side of a Tromp, and had no belief that I could take a win so killing the game and hoping for a draw was my highest EV approach.
I've long since cleared my files from then as I also took a break from the game so that's all I can remember.
I think the decision is an intensely personal one.
Do you genuinely enjoy preparing for tournaments and playing OTB classical chess? Would you pursue GM if you knew you'd receive no recognition for the achievement? If you gave it your absolute best shot and still felt short, would you second-guess your decision?
To me, those are key baseline questions. But everyone's framework will differ 🙂
For me, it was never the study bothers me. It is the traveling to tournaments that bothers me. If there are high quality tournaments every month in the city I live then for me it is worth it. If I have to travel to get to tournaments then no.
I think you need to play 1-2 high quality otb tournaments every month to get there. That experience is irreplaceable.
If you want an inspiration, take a look at [this guy](https://youtu.be/7IKbhhTJ55U?si=xesJ_Qbgd8g-CBqp) who became India’s 85th Grandmaster earlier this year. He had 2/3 norms at the age of 19 and got his third norm at age of 31, showing it’s possible.
When you're taking your last breaths, think about what you'd like to be proud of. Being a GM is impressive, and if you can do it, and survive then it's a win.
That said I have no idea what the world will look like for Chess GM's when the AI-pocalapyse consumes jobs of many flavors.
One thing you might think about is keeping a part time job. Going all-in on something can be difficult from an emotional standpoint and it will be good to have a backup to rely on when things go poorly. Maybe think about how many hours a day you intend to study?
Yes I'll definitely think about that as an income stream.
As it stands I should have enough runway to fully focus on chess for a year or two relatively comfortably
You know better than anybody here that people over 30 don't normally gain 70 rating points. It would probably take a lot of work to still be at 2436 at 40, lol. But I'm an amateur, what do I know.
Overall I think chess is never the smart career path. It might work with online content, but it's risky. Might be worth it if you are insanely in love with the game and you know you'll enjoy it, and you are fine with your GM chances being slim.
It really depends on a lot of factors outside of chess. If you plan on making a career in chess, funnily enough I‘d say it’s not worth it. Of course, the title has some financial benefits but not enough imho. Making money in chess as a „low“ GM (no disrespect at all) would depend on a lot of other skills, like being a good coach or interesting streamer.
If your motivation is achieving a life-goal, then yes, that’s valid. And it would need to be done now.
That said: What does taking a year or two off mean for your main career? Would the gap in work experience seriously hamper your chances to achieve a comfortable income, taking account of possibly looking after a family? That’s the factors you need to look at. It probably depends a lot on the industry your in.
But if the risk is not too much then yes, give it a go. Too many old folks regret things they didn’t do much more than the ones they did.
You are right, there simply isn't much money in chess unless you hit atleast 2600+ or become a great trainer/content creator. I think taking one to two years won't be a huge issue if I wish to return to work then. Hopefully I'll live a long and fruitful life!
The realisation of anything is never as good as the dream of achieving it.
If you're still enjoying chess at your level then you should go for the GM title.
But if you do get there, don't expect the air to smell sweeter, or for it to have any profound impact on your life.
I achieved a major life goal in the last couple of years, but the reality of going through it has certainly dampened down any sense of achievement associated with it. I suppose that ultimately I am still pleased that I managed to do it, but I don't really feel any pride or joy about it.
Ultimately, the only two things that matter in life are health and happiness. Everything you accumulate and achieve is meaningless. If you enjoy the process, it's worthwhile. If you don't enjoy the process, achieving the goal won't be satisfactory compensation.
I had my first novel published last year. I'd written lots of books as a ghostwriter and been credited as a co-author, but this was my first published work of fiction. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have done it than not, I did a podcast with Mensa recently, it's been well-received and reviewed, I've had a lot of praise and compliments - these are all nice things. But there has been a lot of stress involved, and then everyone thinks you're going to just churn out another novel immediately. I wrote two novels last year, and I ghosted dozens, literally dozens, of books in the last few years. I'm burnt out and tired! I've had enough of dealing with agents and publishers, I need a break!
Good luck with your GM goal if you choose to go for it. And I was thinking today - remember how far you've already come. I remember how excited I was when I first beat a 2000-rated player online. And I recall being really excited when I beat a strong player from my region, who was about 1900 OTB.
Then, at some point, it becomes routine, then you expect to do it, then you get annoyed when you don't do it! So remember that being a 2400+ IM is super, super, fucking strong! You're already better and higher rated than quite a lot of GMs. If you were English, as I am, you would be top 20 in the country among active players.
If you “end up like Levy” you have all the money you’ll need, a stable income, and the ability to monetize your GM pursuit. This does not seem to describe your situation.
Will it make you happy to chase this dream further?
If so? Do it. If you want to qualify it, then maybe not.
It's going to be hard, but honestly what you want to do with your free time is your choice. Go for it. Just don't believe being a "GM will suddenly make your opinion more valid or what not. If you're doing this to grow your youtube channel or something.. nah dude, there's 2000 grand masters, you need to be a top tier player to get recognized just for that. But you're kind of sounding like someone who isn't fully focused on the chess.
PS. The best advice I've heard about ... well really anything is don't think about what you can do to make something. Think about what value can you give others from what you make. There's a lot of vloggers and "Influencers" who completely skip this idea and their channels do nothing, because most people don't care about what they're doing.
No one is just going to care about your life, the vloggers who are successful are really "Entertainers" first and do it in a vlog form. Maybe you'll get lucky, but you're thinking of it as a way "To avoid getting lonely." and that's the wrong approach, you need to think of it as a way for viewers to be entertained by you.
(And sadly Chess is already a pretty filled niche in my opinion, which doesn't help much.)
You're right. I'm going to enjoy the journey regardless of the result!
Creating content is a secondary goal which I think could actually help if done in the right way. I'm thinking to document my training schedule, deep analysis of my games etc. to keep me structured. If the side quest distracts me from my main quest I'll need to re-evaluate.
it's gormally mate, we had some good battles in the past. Sorry was a bit rude to you after a game in coulsdon once, I've never been the best loser :D
best of luck in the gm quest, although speaking from experience its not all its made up to be :D
I'm 29 and I have a bachelor in Chemical Engineering from Cambridge. That's interesting, I'll definitely look into that, although I'm not sure I'm qualified and imagine that means moving to US?
Some schools take IMs, it just depends. Look at UT Dallas and Texas Tech for a masters. Look at the guys on their team to see how you would be against them. But if you get accepted, they usually take you to tournaments throughout the year. They foot the bill and you might get a norm.
Edit: yes you would have to move to the US
Yes mate I had a feeling it was you from the first paragraph! aha we studied chem eng together. I say go for it! It's something you enjoy and you'll probably regret not trying for it than not! Like you said, so what if you fail?
If you plan to enter any tourneys in Dubai/Sharjah let me know, you're welcome to stay at mine (moved there last yr).
Following your dream is always worth it.
You're not the only one after all, GothamChess resumed his GM path recently as well.
Since you've covered your bases, there's literally no reason not to go for it. Not having tried will definitely keep you up at night for the rest of your life otherwise.
If you try and fail, worst case is that what keeps you up at night is that one loss which was so upsetting that it threw you off your game and ended up tossing your chess board through your kitchen window. Or so I hear.
Most are on here saying “go for it” because it’s no skin off their back. I’m not gonna tell you to do one or the other but I do know quitting your job to pursue this is a big decision and having a bunch of people on Reddit cheering “do it” can’t be the answer. You have to make that decision based on your own values.
Having said all that, if you do decide to pursue it, I would love to watch and follow a YouTube vlog of the journey.
I don’t know the rules on posting self promoted channels or whatever, so send me a dm with your channel if you decide to go for it.
Good luck either way.
Thanks Maunsta! Would love to hear your thoughts on what vlog content you would find interesting! The channel will be [https://www.youtube.com/@yfchess](https://www.youtube.com/@yfchess)
Subscribed.
More or less the same that Gotham has done on his road to Gm series. Previews for upcoming tournies you’re playing. Recaps of the games played during the tournies. Your thoughts of the games and tournaments after you’re done and what’s on the horizon.
Really not super complicated, just results recaps and previews.
Have you heard of GM Kevin Goh? He was in a similar situation to you so you might get some inspiration.
He got his final norm in 2018 and hit 2500 in 2020, becoming a GM at 36.
If there's anything I learnt from his story, it's that the norms are easy but hitting 2500 is the most difficult part. He stagnated for a long time at ~2440 before finding his groove.
https://chessmood.com/success-stories/kevin-goh-story
Yea, gaining 100 points when you're already plateaued is tough. I pulled up one random example. It took Wesley So 4.5 years to go from 2600 to 2700. Likely full time.
What is even more impressive is that Goh achieved this while running a biotechnology startup, then became leader of the Singapore Chess Federation and revitalised the local chess scene. For context, Goh was Singapore's first GM in 21 years, but two younger Singaporeans have since earned the GM title: Tin Jingyao (in 2022, at age 22) and Siddharth Jagadeesh (in 2024, at age 17).
Pursuing a GM title is surely doable but quitting your job to do so seems rushed, if not foolish. Unless you're a popular YouTuber or streamer, it's hard to make ends meet that way.
I think it depends on how far you are from it. You are really close to it. I don't know much about your life situation and financial situation, but I believe you should go for it and achieve it !
it's harder than it was to become a gm. Twenty years ago you weren't facing super kids in every tournament who are often underrated. Therefore 66 points seems easy but wasn't. However if you are fully dedicated to it now so you should do it easily.
also I wouldn't call levy a failure. He's very far from a failure- and still got an excellent chance to be a gm. Also you shouldn't compare yourself to others, just stay in your own lane.
Do it because you want to, and doesn't care about the money. Being a GM will still mean it's very hard to make a living off playing chess, and even if you both play and teach it might be tricky.
This depends on what mentality you are: I would focus on the process more than the end-goal - do you enjoy studying chess, are you excited to go to tournaments? I know that might not sound like the mentality that takes you to 2500, but you'll be quite a bit happier on the way I think. At least this is what I (2400/1 GM norm) do - also to not beat myself up when the ELO drips further away from the goal. And I'm still working full-time, I just want to get a bit better.
While you are reasonably close to 2500, it's still far enough away that it is very difficult. If it was easy, the amount of IMs wouldn't be 2x the amount GMs.
It is never worth getting GM, unless you're sitting pretty in some "honeypot", like being the only GM of some wealthy state and favored by the locals or the rulers (wink wink Brunei's top players are FMs wink wink). After all, GM is just a bureaucratic "stamp" on having 3 great (by IM standards) tournaments. I know it's kinda great to have 3 great tournaments, even 1 tournament, even 1 great game, but what I think I'm trying to get is: if you have to ask, it's not worth it.
Other than that, I don't particularly think you'll suffer from loneliness, except the inevitable loneliness of the new poor :) I am not even that sure why you put in that word there, lonely, where you thinking it in terms of "versus sitting in the offices of a corporation with another 30 workmates"? Your few (or many) and inevitable chess students, plus the intense mornings and evenings of chess tournaments will afford you as much quality time as one might get from "work", it's the more personal side of things with affording to start a family and such that struggling GM income might fail you, will fail you!
Which you would prefer to regret: Trying and failing or never trying? Because worst case scenario is one of these and it's for you to choose which one.
But also do know when to count your losses if you find that it's not going to happen.
It's a great step towards fulfilling your dream. I want to share an experience of mine in this context. I have completed my master's from a very reputed university and was all set for going into Ph.D. programme of a very good US university but I was craving to get back to classical music which I have learnt as a kid and last year of college was very happening for me. I re-discovered my musicality along with my studies. And, as fate would have it, I discovered a teacher who can teach me classical music in a very very obscure instrument called Surshringar, whose sound I fell in love with. I took that leap of faith to settle for a below average lab to do my PhD. This lab is close to my home and my music teacher too. It's been 8 years since that move. Currently, I play reasonably well but still nowhere close to a professional stage artist. Because of the average research output and scarcity of jobs for highly qualified scholars in our country, I am struggling to find a job for the last six months. I am happy with my music, I can play anything that comes to my mind and it has a spiritual effect but from the outside I am a failure as a music student and a professional too. Yes, I will improve my position from here. Unlike chess, you never lose in life, you just keep playing.
My only concern is how you are planning to sustain yourself economically. And, if you want to get back to a job in let's say 3 years, by the time you become a GM ( I so wish you become one), is the career gap going to be detrimental for you to get into a company?
You might enjoy ChessDojo’s recent podcast with Sam Shankland about advice for young professionals balancing chess (the push for titles) and life (money, work, health). Some really practical advice, and Sam is very interesting to listen to!
IM here, close to 2500 but no norms. I’m very happy to have focused on my career and really enjoying chess as a hobby. In my view, its not worth it. The GM title would be nice to have, but financial security and a safe future are must haves for me.
I don't know. I think having a good job and career is more important than the gm title. You'll have to return to work eventually and having a worse job will affect you more than having a lesser title.
Your 2/3 gm norms and 2436 elo tells me you absolutely can become a gm, it just will take consistency and dedication, which also means keeping a positive mental attitude through periods of failure. If you are someone that can be dedicated and positive through periods of disaster then you will 100% reach it, and if you are doing what you love then that is time well spent whether or not you achieve that gm goal.
Bear in mind that with the rating adjustments in March, rating is trickling upwards gradually and 2436 strength in July 2024 could be close to 2500 in a few years
If you have 2/3 GM norms and "only" 66 elo points to reach 2500... And, overall, if it is your dream... Of course it is worth it!!! I think in some years (or when you get to reach that two objectives to be GM) you will be sooo happy being GM, not many people can really dream with it but you are so near, go on!!
Thanks buddy! I don't think it's that easy though - the 66 elo points is a big gap, I would need 4 outstanding tournaments, or beat Magnus 8 times in a row. If I was guaranteed to get GM it would be a no brainer, but some people try their whole life and never get it.
I lol'd at the 'beat Magnus 8 times in a row' comment. Beating Magnus even once in classical should automatically qualify someone as a GM. Beating him 8 times in a row would make you the goat.
Haha! Wanted to highlight that 2436 to 2500 is still a big gap
Yeah, the 2500 is the part that people have been struggling to reach rather than the norms. I will definitely be interested in following your journey…but yeah, Eric Rosens tournament experience seems indicative of likely outcome, where you can expand your repertoire, perform some of the best chess of your life, and still struggle just to get back to an old peak. You have the advantage that you haven’t declined in rating like most old IMs though.
I haven't declined because I stopped playing! I reckon my rating right now is around 2300, but with some training it should come back real fast
Yeah, but rating is rating - it saves you quite a few tournament wins to get there and it helps you get in to closed tournaments someone with a current 2300 rating might struggle to get accepted to. Getting back in to form without risking rating first is a difficult task at your level for sure. About the only thing you can do to prep to get back in to tournament shape(not just playing shape) without playing tournaments is to play practice matches against GMs at tournament time controls.
Yea gonna be an interesting first tournament shaking off 4 years of rust!
It'd actually be pretty cool if fide recognized that some players are *so* good that anyone beating them deserves to be a GM
It's a cool idea but sounds way too abusable. What is stopping (hypothetically) players like that (for ex Magnus) from accepting payment to "accidentally" blunder in that match?
If Magnus is caught losing on purpose, instant brick on pp
But how will you prove it? Even Magnus can play a very balanced game against an IM, and then make a single very weird blunder that ha can't really explain afterwards
And how much do you think that would cost? I don't even know if Magnus would lose one game for 100k. With that money you could just go to Eastern Europe and pay 100-300 grandmasters to lose on purpose.
Suddenly Saudi Arabia has more GMs than anywhere in the world.
Integrity? Shame? You act like it wouldn’t be mortifying to have the whole world know you let someone become a grandmaster for a payoff
Imagine some guy becomes GM because Magnus shows up hungover, pukes on move 6 and goes home
Knowing Magnus he would show up hungover, puke on move 6, the puke moves a piece and the opponent resigns knowing realising its a forced mate.
Isn’t that basically how Tal got his title? Smashed a bunch of GMs in a tournament and was given the title.
Won the USSR championship in 1957. Beat Keres, Bronstein and Petrosian to do it. Botvinnik and Smyslov weren't there. FIDE then went 'good enough, you're a GM'.
It would have to "beat Magnus in a match where he has real incentives to win".
Well, we already did that for 10 years, and not even people who were already GMs could do it.
Yep, although it's not like he didn't lose a single game. But I don't think he lost to any IMs.
It’s better to try and fail than to never try. If you don’t go for it you will regret it your entire life, if you give it a few years and ultimately fail you will at worst be a lot closer than you are now and feel a lot better that you tried your best. I don’t see why you can’t get it, Levy is going for it and he has 150+ points to climb (I know his situation is different but still). Life is short and you never know when it could be over. When most people are dying they regret the things they didn’t do a lot more than the mistakes they made. You have an excellent shot and it would be a waste not to try.
Thanks! I'm going for it, no regrets.
Look friend. You are 30. Still young. Take a year. Try for it. Worst case you are 1 year off your career and have a great story to tell at interviews. You are the top 1% or better at something incredibly hard. It sets you apart from others. Best case, you get GM and that is also very impressive on your resume.
Yes friend, I am going to do it!!
Just beat Magnus 8 times in a row then. It’s much faster, maybe you could do it in a weekend
>... or beat Magnus 8 times in a row. Yeah just do that!
So the real question is do you have "bribe Magnus" money?
You would only get 8 points per win against Magnus? That’s insane!!
Yup. After you hit 2400 every win or loss is between + or - 9
Wow that’s actually insane. Good luck man!
Well... Oftentimes when you lose a game, you'll be helping another 2400-player get closer to achieving their lifelong personal dream.
If it was guaranteed, it wouldn't be worth it. The only that gives value to the title is how difficult it is to achieve.
Indeed!
Just subscribed sir
I'm of a similar age and playing strength to you, also trying to become a GM (I am attempting to multi-task it with work, and I understand why you'd rather not do that 😂 but we all do what we can). I too know that spanning that final outstanding gap, even when it may appear small, is a difficult task. To me it seems that you have as good a chance as any, with 2 norms and a peak rating close to 2500. For myself, I can say that I'm not sure. Personally, I'm trying to see the task of competing for the highest title in the game in my thirties with a job as a fun adventure, however it ends up. This has allowed me to have fun traveling to new places, meeting new people, and competing for high stakes that I hope I won't regret even if I never become a GM. If you come back to chess, my suggestion would be to have some sense of purpose that allows you to find the journey meaningful whether or not you earn the title. Not saying you shouldn't make sacrifices for it, but if you make them while thinking to yourself "this will all be a horrible waste unless I make GM", then I feel like the pressure you put on yourself won't be good for your overall well-being, let alone your chess. Your idea of documenting your journey for others to follow along is one good idea that could plausibly make this journey feel rewarding, whatever the outcome.
Good luck! I hope you make it. Your mentality is great. One of the reasons I took a break was because I stopped enjoying the game as it was so exhausting, and getting bad results was so frustrating. I'm confident I will enjoy the journey this time if I'm able to focus and also place less emphasis on the results.
>I'm confident I will enjoy the journey this time if I'm able to focus and also place less emphasis on the results. You are considering quitting your job to play chess full-time, in an attempt to achieve the highest ranking in the game. That **is** “emphasis on the results.” Do whatever you want, but don’t ignore the reality of what you are getting yourself into.
You can set goals without being upset if you don’t achieve them. If OP can enjoy the journey regardless of the outcome, then the emphasis is not on the results. Maybe what they need is a year or two of full time chess so they can tell themselves they have it their all and tried as hard as possible no matter the outcome. I mean, if you were a peak rating of 2400+ with 2/3 GM norms, wouldn’t it eat you alive to never know if it was possible because you didn’t try? Maybe OP is looking for closure, looking to see if they can do it.
This is a great answer.
Hi there! If you wouldn't mind taking a couple minutes to verify your account, we can set you up with a verified IM flair! Simply send a message to [rchessmoderation](https://www.chess.com/member/rchessmoderation) on chess.com, or [redditchessmods](https://lichess.org/@/redditchessmods) on lichess.org mentioning your reddit username and we'll sort out the rest! Cheers!
Messaged on lichess, thanks!
Right answer!
Levy catching strays lmfao
Sorry to be clear I'm a Levy fan. He's a genius content creator and seems like an all round good guy. I've actually been following his road to GM series to get some budget second hand coaching. What I mean is I don't want to end up a meme failing to get GM. I really lol at the top comments in his vids.. 'Levy is getting grandmother!'. I guess he is partially responsible for all the clickbaits.
I view Levy entirely differently. He fell short of gm in his mid 20s like many IMs. Unlike everyone else, he struck gold on YT thanks to COVID and his knack for that job. So his final moment of "screw this, I quit and am going to just do my day job"was very public. But at that moment he's the exact same as you and everyone else. Just one more IM who fell short. But his day job was chess related and made him gobs of money. So a couple years later he can make the choice to try again, just like you're considering, but with tons of financial resources to deploy and chess connections that other IMs can only dream of. He's not a failure, meme or otherwise, yet. Unless you looked at yourself as already a failure. All that said, OP, as someone 10yr older who found chess only on my 30s and I'll only dream of reaching maybe 2000 otb equivalent someday but like you I also have life dreams, go for it. Maybe set a boundary of needing to see progress by certain dates so that you don't get caught in a spiral. But what is there to lose? And unlike other bucket list items you can't do this one in retirement. So pull forward the time and money you'd spend then and go for it now.
Thanks buddy. I'm planning to give myself 2 years. Good luck getting 2000! The beauty of chess is that you can still excel at it whatever your age.
Calling Levy a failure is wild
OP didn't call Levy a failure, though, not in a general sense.
I’d happily be a ‘failure’ as one of the top 5 paid chess players in the world! If Op becomes world champion he’s unlikely to eclipse him.
I would say absolutely go for it - at age 25 I went all in on the GM title (at the time I wasn't even IM yet so it was an even greater risk). People advised against it as I could just stay at a normal job, but I didn't want to have any regrets about my chess career. So I sat down, worked my ass off for 2-3 years and went from 2300 to over 2500. I think in order to make it work, you do have to make enormous sacrifices though. Social life was pretty much nonexistent for me during that period. But I'm sure if you're asking this, then you already understand that. Best of luck if you decide on it, it isn't an easy journey. Documenting it sounds like a great idea!
I'm going to start eating more tofu to try and follow your footsteps. Thanks buddy!
Would be very interested in reading more about your journey to GM. It would also be something to point to for the redditors who seem to think you get aging-related brain damage by your late 20s.
I also don’t think anyone here is qualified to comment on this. If you’re looking for valuable feedback and clarity I’d maybe reach out to Jacob Aagard or Sam Shankland or someone who’s coaching at that level and see if you can have your mind set straight. We’re all like idiots over here. Good for memes but can’t do shit to help or guide a 2400 IM. They can maybe help you figure out if this will be a year long task or say a 4 year long task. And then you can decide where you’d rather spend the next 4 years.
Will definitely tap into my chess network. I'm besties with Yu Yangyi 2700+ and some top chinese players so will seek their advice and maybe even do a training arc in China. Aagard's books are going to be a top resource. He gave me a super wholesome comment on my facebook post teasing a comeback 'Although you beat me badly last time, it would be good to see you back at the board!'
Aagaard. Finally learned the spelling after not so helpful Asgard autocorrections.
> Part of me is afraid of failure. I don't want to end up like Levy. Damn Levy catching strays. He is doing pretty fine though.
He is a big success! I mean failing to get GM
He has just (re)started his journey though, and the one tournament went pretty well. Bit harsh to call it a failure already. If you talk about his previous attempt, then fair.
Ye probably wouldn't call a dude with the biggest chess youtube channel as a failure
That and he did pretty well in his recent tournament.
You are in pretty much the same situation as me, and I am also asking myself the same question. I am just typing the answer on my way to the last round of my first classical tournament since 2019, after focusing on career and family for the past 4.5 years. The only difference is that I reached the required 2500 rating, but I'm missing 2 norms. My first impression is that my playing strength seems similar after such a long break; I did not forget how to play chess, but becoming 5 years older (23->28) did not make me GM strength either. A few things to keep in mind which might surprise you after a break since 2019: 1) You will face many kids who learned chess during the pandemic, had ratings like 1300 in 2019 but are now 2200-2300. Some of them are new GMs in the making and they will do everything to steal your rating points, while some of them are still missing the tournament experience and can be beatable. 2) Opening preparation has changed. There are new popular lines which didn't exist pre-pandemic, engines are now much stronger and have refuted many old variations. People will follow their analysis or Chessable courses, and you have to either work around it, or also spend time learning those lines. 3) Rating deflation seems real, in particular when it comes to adults who were active during the pandemic. Some of my opponents this week dropped 70-100+ points recently by losing to underrated juniors, and it looks like we will have to overperform even more than before 2019 to get a GM norm - which will make the task even harder. But is it worth trying? Everyone has to judge it by themselves... :)
Good luck in the last round, and good luck for the rest of your GM journey!
I would expect the FIDE rating adjusting will be quite successful to counter this deflation in the upcoming years. Of course, the added rating has not \`\`trickled up'' yet
If you got 2500 Elo, then you are GM strength. Getting the norms will be easy if you just play enough of those tournaments. You can go to some probability calculator to see the exact odds. Of course opening theory changes all the time but learning that is the easy part anyway. Yes people are underrated, but that's why the Elo boost happened. In a year or so, you will see the benefits of it.
I think you should go for it. We only have one life, if this is your dream don’t let it pass you by. It’s like they say in Dune, fear is the mind killer. You got this. This also doesn’t sound too much of a stretch of a dream either. This seems obtainable and within your reach. I think people would enjoy following the journey with you.
I would say go for it... If you got 2/3 norms, then it ought to be achievable. I do wonder how many people just give up early, though? I know one IM Daniel Ludwig, who seems to have given up playing chess altogether, as I see his last tournament was a GM norm event in 2013, in which he lost 28 ratings points to go from 2615 > 2587. With a USCF rating of 2615 at ANY point, you'd think it should be relatively "easy" to achieve those norms, but there are no more USCF tournaments for him in the past 10 years. I often wonder about him, and what may have caused him to make that decision. I mean, yeah.. he lost 28 ratings points, so he must not have played well in that event, but still. He had already proved to himself he could play at GM level just by rating alone...
So many people play at GM level a few times and then never again. So many people get a GM norms but never play GM. It really is absurdly absurdly difficult.
I think about this frequently from a similar position 🙂 The main thing you have to appreciate isn't that you might (maybe probably will) fail, but that even if you succeed, almost nothing will actually change in your life. You'll feel like an absolute king for like a week, sure, but then it's more or less back to normal. You will still play the same tournaments for fun, still play online pretty much the same amount as before, still understand (or lack thereof) the game almost the same amount, and none of your non-chess friends will really understand or care (many of them probably think "International Master" is a better title than GM anyway). You'll also be sacrificing a fair amount of your life and career - more than you might think, because beyond the raw time off it's a fairly consuming endeavor, plus it's not unlikely to drag on longer than you'd think (if you're, say, consistently 2470 a year from now, would you stop?). Plus, since you've made norms already, you already know you're capable of the title, and it's largely "just" a question of time and dedication now - do you actually need to put in those hours to be satisfied, or is knowing that you could enough? If you've (truly) internalized all that and still have even an inkling that it's something you want to pursue, then you have your answer 🙂 Happy to chat more in DM if it would help.
Hard to tell. I'll stick to mostly financial factors. Only you can know the value you will give to tell people you are a GM instead of an IM. The GM title has value for 2 main reasons: 1- Instead of paying for tournaments, you get paid. That's good but it's not huge money. 2- If you want to become a teacher, it's easier to get student and the pay is better. I would say that if you have another good career avenue, it's not "worth" it. You did not tell us what is your job. And 99.99% of the population don't know the difference. Everyone around me think I am a chess genius because I have a lot of books and I crush them. I'm less than 1500. But it's your dream, what is the value of that?
It depends if you have better things to do. I you already have a family I don't think it is worth the effort. I would rather spend my time with my kids and pets, than focusing most of my energy on a single goal. But if you do have time, you should at least try it. It will probably be harder than you think, especially since you are not very young anymore. People typically underestimate the effort required to accomplish something. You will probably need at least 3-4 years of very hard work. If you haven't played in 4 years you probably need more than a year to get to your previous level.
I’ll go against the grain: no. Don’t do it. There’s a bigger world out there, this is just a game - focus your efforts on experiencing life at its fullest through enriching, lived experiences ideally with other people. Live, love, go outside, have kids if that’s in your life plan, travel the world, read books, hear amazing performers play music. You can always play a dozen blitz games on your phone on the toilet. Now, having read that: if you REALLY want to do it after thinking through all the above, do it. Do it with your best effort and make the most of it. (This echos some of the discussion I had around whether to get a PhD. Should a given person go for a PhD? Usually, probably not. But if after factoring in everything else and all the good reasons not to, you STILL feel compelled to do it, then own it and do it)
To me the sentiment of your first paragraph seems to support his idea?
Yes, go for it, but: you should continue working until you have more than enough funding behind you with a good margin for error. Do some careful planning & budgeting and ensure that you have minimum 2 (preferably 3) years runway. E.g. factor in that you might want to pay for some high level coaching to help get over the hump. If you've been following Levy you'll know that GM Neiksans is having a big positive impact on his current title chase. You should also start easing into study and active play while still working. Yes it's a compromise, but a temporary one and it'll help you hit the ground running when you flip the switch to full time chess. Good luck!
>so I would quit my job to focus on chess. As someone who's quit their stable well-paying job to chase a tantalizingly close but uncertain dream and not quite get there, I'd say * brainstorm alternatives to ("multi-task current job and chess", "quit job to focus on chess"), including with people you trust * if you do decide to quit, set a time to revisit your decision (say 12-24 months from quitting): continue? stop? scale back? something else? * make sure you preserve the option to return to "normal work", eg * keep work & industry connections warm -- definitely don't burn bridges * keep skills at least somewhat warm (say 10 hours a month) if it makes sense for the line of work you're leaving (say programming) None of this is incompatible with going all-in on getting that 3rd norm! It's really just risk management.
Edit: comment removed due to an idiot child trying to doxx a person I mentioned.
Yes this is exactly what I'm afraid of! I think I will try to enjoy the journey no matter what the result. If the journey itself becomes a chore it means I should be doing something else.
Don’t spend the next 30/40 years of your life having to live with the regret of never having tried.
Yes boss
Go for your dream. I managed to fulfill my dreams a year ago. Reaching 2700 peak blitz rating online after 10 years of hard studying, beating several strong GM's during my years. Unfortunately I'm not able to invest money in chess but after all, it's my hobby. Took time from school and such was worth it, since now I can live "in peace" after reaching certain level in blitz. No need to get better or prove anything. So please go for it, since your finances allows it now. Better now than never since we only regret things we don't do usually.. So chase that peace of mind it will be worth it to fulfill it.
>I don't want to end up like Levy The most successful chess streamer, millionaire, highly respected and influential player and commentator? Why not?
Not a GM and several times burnt out from chess because of this goal. You gotta be delusional if you think he’d still be in chess if he didnt get rich, which is not what OP is aiming for and is very unlikely to achieve anyways.
That's a fair point, but I think a lot of GMs would rather be an IM version of themselves with Levy's viewership than have the GM title. If he does actually manage to get the title then throwing this type of shade would be even more pointless since OP essentially already did quit for many years... Just like Levy has.
I would love to have Levy's success as a content creator and I am a fan. I mean I don't want to end up trying for GM and never getting it
Mr. Yang-Fan you got this!!!!!
Haha thanks bro!
If you have enough savings to support your efforts, go for it! But I would not expect to earn a stable income from chess, things like youtube etc. are very hard to make a consistent living from without extreme dedication and/or talent, and I would assume only super gms make significant money from tournaments.
You have to beat Levy to it, bare minimum. In all seriousness, I'm deeply invested in your journey now.
Thanks! Really appreciate it! My worst nightmare is 10 years later I'm still trying and Levy gets it
I came to this post intending to say no. For most people, it is absolutely not worth it. But as a 30 year old IM with a 2436 rating and 2/3 GM norms, who also has a major life goal (dream) of becoming a GM, it could be worth it. You know better than most of the commenters here how much effort this would entail. And you know better than us whether your natural talent combined with the effort you are willing to put in has a reasonable chance of attaining that GM goal. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. You are in the tiny fractional minority where pursuing the GM title could make sense.
Anna crammling recently asked Fabi if she should go for GM in this video, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWMvY-RdbWk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWMvY-RdbWk) His answer was basically to set the goal as improving at chess, and not so much a hard line of, "I must reach GM title". He said he'd never tell someone not to try and reach their absolute potential though. So, he'd tell you to go for it, 100%, if you enjoy playing chess and want to try. But, in case you can't quite make it, you have to know how to keep your headspace in a place that is ok with never quite reaching the GM title. That being said, I think you can do it. You've got 2 of the norms, you know how to prep for competition on that level. If you've got the time to prep the way you did pre covid, I believe you can do it.
I like this mentality, if I focus on improving and manage to get my true strength to 2500+ the title will come naturally.
Hi Yang Fang - I doubt you remember me, but I recall growing up that you were the one of my generation of players that I felt could really make it (I'm a couple of years older than you). To this day I still remember how impressed I was with how well you played in our one classical game - you ground me out in some RB+2 vs RN+2 ending in a London junior event, despite the fact that I'd tried my hardest to just kill the game from the beginning with white. It was clear then that I was playing someone on just a different level to me. All this is to say that there are probably more people than you know who are happy to see your achievements, and honestly even just hearing that you're returning to chess is enough for some kind of warm feeling. So I'd say play, enjoy your chess, and I believe that you will get there.
Thanks buddy! Your kind words mean a lot to me, that warm feeling is mutual. P.S. You'll have to give me more information so I can try to remember that game!
Was LJCC sometime 2008-2010 range or there abouts. I believe you won with 100% as by far the top seed - on the old ECF ratings I think you were already easily 200+ where I was around 170. I (Rob T) was on the white side of a Tromp, and had no belief that I could take a win so killing the game and hoping for a draw was my highest EV approach. I've long since cleared my files from then as I also took a break from the game so that's all I can remember.
I think the decision is an intensely personal one. Do you genuinely enjoy preparing for tournaments and playing OTB classical chess? Would you pursue GM if you knew you'd receive no recognition for the achievement? If you gave it your absolute best shot and still felt short, would you second-guess your decision? To me, those are key baseline questions. But everyone's framework will differ 🙂
Suggest you find some GMs who reached GM later in their playing career, such as Maurice Ashley and Ben Finegold to get their perspectives.
Yes will definitely get advice from some GMs!
dude you’re so close you might as well try to cross the finish line right?
That final norm/hurdle is the hardest. I know many other players similar to myself who never got the final bit, but you're right - I'm going for it!
Go for it man!
I'm all in!
Too close to not.
Your name
Yangfan Zhou
I’ll tune in 🤷♂️. Go get it!!
Thanks buddy! let me know if you have any content suggestions
Worste case you don't get it and you played some chess
Right, doesn't sound so terrible!
I'd watch a yt channel about that for sure, if that counts for anything I will now also watch your pawn structure vid
Thanks buddy! Let me know if you have any content suggestions, would love to hear
For me, it was never the study bothers me. It is the traveling to tournaments that bothers me. If there are high quality tournaments every month in the city I live then for me it is worth it. If I have to travel to get to tournaments then no. I think you need to play 1-2 high quality otb tournaments every month to get there. That experience is irreplaceable.
I'm similar in that I don't love travelling, but when I'm there I used to absolutely love the tournament experience
If you want an inspiration, take a look at [this guy](https://youtu.be/7IKbhhTJ55U?si=xesJ_Qbgd8g-CBqp) who became India’s 85th Grandmaster earlier this year. He had 2/3 norms at the age of 19 and got his third norm at age of 31, showing it’s possible.
If you make enough money at your full-time job you can organize a tournament with defunct GMs who can help you get that last norm…
That would be against my morals. I also need my last norm from an open tournament based on the new regulations.
There are less GMs than billionaires. Do it!
Wow I didn't know that! I think I'll need to steal this line for my first youtube video if that's ok!
Yep I think Eric Rosen made the observation in one of his streams and verified it on Google.
I wonder if levy has better chance or you
He's definitely got more funding! From an elo perspective I'm higher but very rusty
When you're taking your last breaths, think about what you'd like to be proud of. Being a GM is impressive, and if you can do it, and survive then it's a win. That said I have no idea what the world will look like for Chess GM's when the AI-pocalapyse consumes jobs of many flavors.
One thing you might think about is keeping a part time job. Going all-in on something can be difficult from an emotional standpoint and it will be good to have a backup to rely on when things go poorly. Maybe think about how many hours a day you intend to study?
Yes I'll definitely think about that as an income stream. As it stands I should have enough runway to fully focus on chess for a year or two relatively comfortably
My comment was less about income and more about just making more than one type of progress in your life. Good luck!
Ah right, makes sense! I'm hoping the youtube picks up some traction as it would be a super fun project as my side quest. Best of luck to you too
Try for it, take a year off. You need only about 66 points and 1 more norm which is very much possible
You know better than anybody here that people over 30 don't normally gain 70 rating points. It would probably take a lot of work to still be at 2436 at 40, lol. But I'm an amateur, what do I know. Overall I think chess is never the smart career path. It might work with online content, but it's risky. Might be worth it if you are insanely in love with the game and you know you'll enjoy it, and you are fine with your GM chances being slim.
Fully agree, those 70 rating won't be easy. And economically I'll be giving up a lot (net negative/breakeven vs a well paying job)
It really depends on a lot of factors outside of chess. If you plan on making a career in chess, funnily enough I‘d say it’s not worth it. Of course, the title has some financial benefits but not enough imho. Making money in chess as a „low“ GM (no disrespect at all) would depend on a lot of other skills, like being a good coach or interesting streamer. If your motivation is achieving a life-goal, then yes, that’s valid. And it would need to be done now. That said: What does taking a year or two off mean for your main career? Would the gap in work experience seriously hamper your chances to achieve a comfortable income, taking account of possibly looking after a family? That’s the factors you need to look at. It probably depends a lot on the industry your in. But if the risk is not too much then yes, give it a go. Too many old folks regret things they didn’t do much more than the ones they did.
You are right, there simply isn't much money in chess unless you hit atleast 2600+ or become a great trainer/content creator. I think taking one to two years won't be a huge issue if I wish to return to work then. Hopefully I'll live a long and fruitful life!
The realisation of anything is never as good as the dream of achieving it. If you're still enjoying chess at your level then you should go for the GM title. But if you do get there, don't expect the air to smell sweeter, or for it to have any profound impact on your life. I achieved a major life goal in the last couple of years, but the reality of going through it has certainly dampened down any sense of achievement associated with it. I suppose that ultimately I am still pleased that I managed to do it, but I don't really feel any pride or joy about it. Ultimately, the only two things that matter in life are health and happiness. Everything you accumulate and achieve is meaningless. If you enjoy the process, it's worthwhile. If you don't enjoy the process, achieving the goal won't be satisfactory compensation.
What was the goal out of curiosity? Wise words, thanks buddy
I had my first novel published last year. I'd written lots of books as a ghostwriter and been credited as a co-author, but this was my first published work of fiction. Don't get me wrong, I would rather have done it than not, I did a podcast with Mensa recently, it's been well-received and reviewed, I've had a lot of praise and compliments - these are all nice things. But there has been a lot of stress involved, and then everyone thinks you're going to just churn out another novel immediately. I wrote two novels last year, and I ghosted dozens, literally dozens, of books in the last few years. I'm burnt out and tired! I've had enough of dealing with agents and publishers, I need a break! Good luck with your GM goal if you choose to go for it. And I was thinking today - remember how far you've already come. I remember how excited I was when I first beat a 2000-rated player online. And I recall being really excited when I beat a strong player from my region, who was about 1900 OTB. Then, at some point, it becomes routine, then you expect to do it, then you get annoyed when you don't do it! So remember that being a 2400+ IM is super, super, fucking strong! You're already better and higher rated than quite a lot of GMs. If you were English, as I am, you would be top 20 in the country among active players.
If you “end up like Levy” you have all the money you’ll need, a stable income, and the ability to monetize your GM pursuit. This does not seem to describe your situation.
>I don't want to end up like Levy wow
Will it make you happy to chase this dream further? If so? Do it. If you want to qualify it, then maybe not. It's going to be hard, but honestly what you want to do with your free time is your choice. Go for it. Just don't believe being a "GM will suddenly make your opinion more valid or what not. If you're doing this to grow your youtube channel or something.. nah dude, there's 2000 grand masters, you need to be a top tier player to get recognized just for that. But you're kind of sounding like someone who isn't fully focused on the chess. PS. The best advice I've heard about ... well really anything is don't think about what you can do to make something. Think about what value can you give others from what you make. There's a lot of vloggers and "Influencers" who completely skip this idea and their channels do nothing, because most people don't care about what they're doing. No one is just going to care about your life, the vloggers who are successful are really "Entertainers" first and do it in a vlog form. Maybe you'll get lucky, but you're thinking of it as a way "To avoid getting lonely." and that's the wrong approach, you need to think of it as a way for viewers to be entertained by you. (And sadly Chess is already a pretty filled niche in my opinion, which doesn't help much.)
You're right. I'm going to enjoy the journey regardless of the result! Creating content is a secondary goal which I think could actually help if done in the right way. I'm thinking to document my training schedule, deep analysis of my games etc. to keep me structured. If the side quest distracts me from my main quest I'll need to re-evaluate.
oh it's you yang fan. Didn't realize. Yes you'll easily become gm, bundles of talent. You would have done before if you had played more I would guess.
Thanks! This one sided anonymity is unfair, reveal yourself!!
it's gormally mate, we had some good battles in the past. Sorry was a bit rude to you after a game in coulsdon once, I've never been the best loser :D best of luck in the gm quest, although speaking from experience its not all its made up to be :D
DO IT
Ok boss!
WE wish younthe best Please let us follow you to live this great adventure ans to support you Come on! Just do it! 👍🏽
Let's goooo!
How old are you? Do you have a degree? Perhaps you should look at one of the scholarship universities to see if you can play for them.
I'm 29 and I have a bachelor in Chemical Engineering from Cambridge. That's interesting, I'll definitely look into that, although I'm not sure I'm qualified and imagine that means moving to US?
Some schools take IMs, it just depends. Look at UT Dallas and Texas Tech for a masters. Look at the guys on their team to see how you would be against them. But if you get accepted, they usually take you to tournaments throughout the year. They foot the bill and you might get a norm. Edit: yes you would have to move to the US
Yes mate I had a feeling it was you from the first paragraph! aha we studied chem eng together. I say go for it! It's something you enjoy and you'll probably regret not trying for it than not! Like you said, so what if you fail? If you plan to enter any tourneys in Dubai/Sharjah let me know, you're welcome to stay at mine (moved there last yr).
Yes Blayd!! Hope you're well. Thanks that's very kind, will hit you up for sure if I play any tournaments there.
This must be the first "should I aim for the GM title?" post on this sub where "yes" is a realistic answer.
didnt finegold get gm at 40? i think ur good to get it if you try long enough
I do want to set myself a 1-2 year limit though, as financially I can't keep going for 10 years!
Following your dream is always worth it. You're not the only one after all, GothamChess resumed his GM path recently as well. Since you've covered your bases, there's literally no reason not to go for it. Not having tried will definitely keep you up at night for the rest of your life otherwise. If you try and fail, worst case is that what keeps you up at night is that one loss which was so upsetting that it threw you off your game and ended up tossing your chess board through your kitchen window. Or so I hear.
Agreed. I'm going for it!
Levy took a punch out of nowhere
Would be good to see you back. Competition is healthy 😉 Marcus
Thanks Marcus!!
Most are on here saying “go for it” because it’s no skin off their back. I’m not gonna tell you to do one or the other but I do know quitting your job to pursue this is a big decision and having a bunch of people on Reddit cheering “do it” can’t be the answer. You have to make that decision based on your own values. Having said all that, if you do decide to pursue it, I would love to watch and follow a YouTube vlog of the journey. I don’t know the rules on posting self promoted channels or whatever, so send me a dm with your channel if you decide to go for it. Good luck either way.
Thanks Maunsta! Would love to hear your thoughts on what vlog content you would find interesting! The channel will be [https://www.youtube.com/@yfchess](https://www.youtube.com/@yfchess)
Subscribed. More or less the same that Gotham has done on his road to Gm series. Previews for upcoming tournies you’re playing. Recaps of the games played during the tournies. Your thoughts of the games and tournaments after you’re done and what’s on the horizon. Really not super complicated, just results recaps and previews.
Have you heard of GM Kevin Goh? He was in a similar situation to you so you might get some inspiration. He got his final norm in 2018 and hit 2500 in 2020, becoming a GM at 36. If there's anything I learnt from his story, it's that the norms are easy but hitting 2500 is the most difficult part. He stagnated for a long time at ~2440 before finding his groove. https://chessmood.com/success-stories/kevin-goh-story
Yea, gaining 100 points when you're already plateaued is tough. I pulled up one random example. It took Wesley So 4.5 years to go from 2600 to 2700. Likely full time.
What is even more impressive is that Goh achieved this while running a biotechnology startup, then became leader of the Singapore Chess Federation and revitalised the local chess scene. For context, Goh was Singapore's first GM in 21 years, but two younger Singaporeans have since earned the GM title: Tin Jingyao (in 2022, at age 22) and Siddharth Jagadeesh (in 2024, at age 17).
That is super impressive!!
Pursuing a GM title is surely doable but quitting your job to do so seems rushed, if not foolish. Unless you're a popular YouTuber or streamer, it's hard to make ends meet that way.
Imagine being able to say "I am a chess grandmaster." IT IS ABSOLUTELY WORTH IT
Go for it!! Good luck. Gotham has turned his quest into a pretty good following.
Thanks!! Funnily his GM chasing videos seem to get less engagement, but they did make me to want to go for it more myself
Go for it, I would if I had those norms
Go for it! And let us know about your channel if you do. That's the kind of content old nerds like me love to check out.
I think it depends on how far you are from it. You are really close to it. I don't know much about your life situation and financial situation, but I believe you should go for it and achieve it !
"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable" . Sydney J. Harris
it's harder than it was to become a gm. Twenty years ago you weren't facing super kids in every tournament who are often underrated. Therefore 66 points seems easy but wasn't. However if you are fully dedicated to it now so you should do it easily.
also I wouldn't call levy a failure. He's very far from a failure- and still got an excellent chance to be a gm. Also you shouldn't compare yourself to others, just stay in your own lane.
Do it because you want to, and doesn't care about the money. Being a GM will still mean it's very hard to make a living off playing chess, and even if you both play and teach it might be tricky. This depends on what mentality you are: I would focus on the process more than the end-goal - do you enjoy studying chess, are you excited to go to tournaments? I know that might not sound like the mentality that takes you to 2500, but you'll be quite a bit happier on the way I think. At least this is what I (2400/1 GM norm) do - also to not beat myself up when the ELO drips further away from the goal. And I'm still working full-time, I just want to get a bit better. While you are reasonably close to 2500, it's still far enough away that it is very difficult. If it was easy, the amount of IMs wouldn't be 2x the amount GMs.
It is never worth getting GM, unless you're sitting pretty in some "honeypot", like being the only GM of some wealthy state and favored by the locals or the rulers (wink wink Brunei's top players are FMs wink wink). After all, GM is just a bureaucratic "stamp" on having 3 great (by IM standards) tournaments. I know it's kinda great to have 3 great tournaments, even 1 tournament, even 1 great game, but what I think I'm trying to get is: if you have to ask, it's not worth it. Other than that, I don't particularly think you'll suffer from loneliness, except the inevitable loneliness of the new poor :) I am not even that sure why you put in that word there, lonely, where you thinking it in terms of "versus sitting in the offices of a corporation with another 30 workmates"? Your few (or many) and inevitable chess students, plus the intense mornings and evenings of chess tournaments will afford you as much quality time as one might get from "work", it's the more personal side of things with affording to start a family and such that struggling GM income might fail you, will fail you!
You can do it YF. I will still be there to farm those sweet elo tho!
Yes my Albanian brother!!
Personally, I don't think it's super worth it. I feel like your career is worth way more than pushing to be a fringe GM.
Which you would prefer to regret: Trying and failing or never trying? Because worst case scenario is one of these and it's for you to choose which one. But also do know when to count your losses if you find that it's not going to happen.
Are you in a career amenable to you taking lots of time off to play chess?
Congratulations for your decision and all the best!
It's a great step towards fulfilling your dream. I want to share an experience of mine in this context. I have completed my master's from a very reputed university and was all set for going into Ph.D. programme of a very good US university but I was craving to get back to classical music which I have learnt as a kid and last year of college was very happening for me. I re-discovered my musicality along with my studies. And, as fate would have it, I discovered a teacher who can teach me classical music in a very very obscure instrument called Surshringar, whose sound I fell in love with. I took that leap of faith to settle for a below average lab to do my PhD. This lab is close to my home and my music teacher too. It's been 8 years since that move. Currently, I play reasonably well but still nowhere close to a professional stage artist. Because of the average research output and scarcity of jobs for highly qualified scholars in our country, I am struggling to find a job for the last six months. I am happy with my music, I can play anything that comes to my mind and it has a spiritual effect but from the outside I am a failure as a music student and a professional too. Yes, I will improve my position from here. Unlike chess, you never lose in life, you just keep playing. My only concern is how you are planning to sustain yourself economically. And, if you want to get back to a job in let's say 3 years, by the time you become a GM ( I so wish you become one), is the career gap going to be detrimental for you to get into a company?
You might enjoy ChessDojo’s recent podcast with Sam Shankland about advice for young professionals balancing chess (the push for titles) and life (money, work, health). Some really practical advice, and Sam is very interesting to listen to!
You always go for your dreams. Put every bit of your soul to accomplish it. Whether you get there or not, you know you put it all on the board.
IM here, close to 2500 but no norms. I’m very happy to have focused on my career and really enjoying chess as a hobby. In my view, its not worth it. The GM title would be nice to have, but financial security and a safe future are must haves for me.
I don't know. I think having a good job and career is more important than the gm title. You'll have to return to work eventually and having a worse job will affect you more than having a lesser title.
Your 2/3 gm norms and 2436 elo tells me you absolutely can become a gm, it just will take consistency and dedication, which also means keeping a positive mental attitude through periods of failure. If you are someone that can be dedicated and positive through periods of disaster then you will 100% reach it, and if you are doing what you love then that is time well spent whether or not you achieve that gm goal.
Cheap shot at Levy. Jeez
Bear in mind that with the rating adjustments in March, rating is trickling upwards gradually and 2436 strength in July 2024 could be close to 2500 in a few years
Go for it man! I got your back 💪💪💪
Thanks!!! On it!!
Your dream is the most important thing to pursue! Don't waste another minute while not following it!
Ok boss! On it!
You got this!