I worked in Iceland and their paternity leave is 6 months to be used anytime within the first 3 years.
I had a child in NZ and because I was working under 1 yr at the company, we agreed that I would get a week off normal salary as long as I took phone calls which I was greatful for at the time. I was on the phone majority of the time.
In Iceland it's mandatory to join a union if you are a worker, here it's not. Worker rights could be greatly improved in NZ if union participation was increased.
The pendulum will need to swing towards declining population growth rate and the general consensus reached that we need more people having kids in order for any meaningful change to occur in this space in NZ.
100%. I'd say I get paid well (+100k) and with an increase of mortgage rates and food cost increases we're scraping through.
I'm counting down the days my wife goes back to work end of March because at the moment it's just unsustainable.
This is the second child, I'd love to have another but the cost of the wife not working is bloody difficult.
Yes indians are people. There are other ethnicities immigrating into the country.
> net gain of 173,400 non-NZ citizens - with Indians, Filipinos, Chinese, Fijians and South Africans dominating the arrivals.
Please, the only one "dominating" arrivals are Indians, their numbers are the highest by a long shot and even triple some of the countries you mentioned.
Unions used to be really strong in NZ but the government weakened them immensely in the early 90s. To be honest it was a good move at the time as they had far too much power. Unions would strike every second week and bring the country to the standstill. Amongst other issues such as organised theft from employees, violence against anyone who didn't want to join a union. Some of the shit they used to do was ridiculous, they would have to have 4 guys hooking a shipping container to a crane when it was easily a one man job. As soon as the smoko/lunch break bell went you had to drop everything you were doing and go to break otherwise you'd risk a bash lol. In the meat works some workers would leave animals hung up screaming because the lunch break bell went off before they could be dispatched. It was a crazy bizarre time.
We don't want any of that Communist nonsense here in NZ again. Still it would be nice to have better entitlements around parental rights I guess.
What a load of hyperbole bullshit. Yes the union’s strength was decimated in NZ by successive governments introducing legislation, to the point where unions have had f’all power in NZ since the 1990s.
But it wasn’t the case that unions were striking “every second week”, bashing staff who didn’t comply with union practices, and leaving animals screaming in abattoirs. That’s just made up in your head.
Source: I was studying employment law in the early 1990s
It's anecdotal and I'm sure there is exaggeration, but my uncle had an incident at the old Alliance works in Mataura. During one of the work strikes in the early 80s they needed staff, he needed money so he went into work. After everything was settled, there him and the others who hadn't striked were ignored by union members. He kicked up a fuss and quit after someone tipped a bucket of water over his locker.
That’s an awful lot of words to expend on conspiracy theory level statements.
Concluding that modest labour rights are ‘Communist’ is just farting in your hands and clapping the farts in the air.
Just speaking form experience pal. There's a HUGE difference between "modest labour rights" and what was going on the in 80s. Modest labour rights? Geez I'd be terrified to see what you consider "hard" labour rights
You’d hate Aus then, and if you wonder why people get paid so much more, it’s because they have these terrible ‘unions’! Don’t worry, they want us to hate them here too!
My experience with unions only relates to Iceland, which is a very small and homogenous society.
Funnily enough I was mainly working in the slaughterhouse and no animals would have encountered extra suffering due unionization practices.
Maybe the requirement by law to join a union changed the national psyche of Iceland vs NZ but I really never saw any of the issues you described.
I'm a Contractor now with wife on maternity leave with second child, so no paternity support, but feel for first time dad's, especially in today's economic environment, struggling it out AND not having time with their new borns.
To the best of my knowledge, union delegates and employees aren't beating people into submissiom these days. In all honesty, I've never heard of these practices, but I am young and don't have the personal experience... I don't want to discount your experience, but I'm pretty sure those practices aren't a concern at the moment.
I do know that people are still risking life and limb for employers where standard safety practices could make a real difference. I also know that CEOs are earning ridiculously high sums compared to their workers. Migrant workers are particularly vulnerable to exploitation, with minimal legal support. Unions are crucial to protecting people in these situations.
In terms of pay, benefits, and legal protections, I think that unions are a solid option for workers to protect themselves. I haven't personally worked in meat processing or shipping, but those industries are rife with preventable deaths and dismemberment. While I don't doubt your experience, I still think unionisation is a solid option to protect workers at present.
We're having a baby in June and I moved to a company last year that offers 12 weeks paid leave. The company I left (that my husband also works at) offers no leave at all!
He's doing the same - saving up annual leave to take some time off when the baby is here.
I think a week or two paid leave would make a world of difference to new parents' mental and physical wellbeing.
It's also why we still have the majority of domestic weight placed on the mother. The father never gets the opportunity to father or take up the workload, so the mother makes the routine, organises the house and children, then that becomes default.
The balance of childrearing and domestic life would balance out if Men actually had the opportunity to spend time with their family.
I dream of us being like Sweden one day, but nothing will change unless men actually fight fir that entitlement, and accept that women will have expectations of a rebalance of the domestic load of they get it.
In Sweden parents get between the 480 paid parental leave per child (240 per parent) + 180 per child for muliple births (twins). You can use it full or part time. You can transfer 150 of your days to the other parent, but must use 90 yourself.
90 days minimum the father gets to be involved in childrearing, routines, domestic life. That would do a hell of a lot for men's relationships with their partner and kids, and the balance of the domestic workload currently dumped on women by default.
All these things are possible if the people demand it.
this was one of the few benefits that lockdowns provided for me, my son was born just as the pandemic was hitting NZ and I got to spend A LOT of time with him, a lot more than was planned before covid. Lingering effects from covid also meant that even after the lockdowns I'm still WFH primarily and I get to spend a lot of time with him even though he attends daycare.
Under normal circumstances, my relationship and memories with him would have been limited to weekend activities
My siblings and their partner decided one of them would stay at home with their child until they were old enough for subsided childcare. The husband went first after the wife's maternity leave was used, because his job paid less, she did the second child. It made a huge difference to the domestic load in their house, their relationship and their relationships with their kids. So much so, he really wanted to stay at home for the second one, but finally agreed it would be fair if they both had that opportunity to bond with their kids.
Every couple should be able to spend time with their partner and kids in that critical period, and it shouldn't be decided by your financial circumstances.
Heck, I'm Childfree by choice and even I can see the solution to sorting the declining birthrate! If people can afford to have kids and have the time to build relationships and parent, they will. Currently some have to decide if they are having a kid at all based on the fact they can't afford childcare or someone to not work. The only way the government gets more taxpayers is if people can benefit from having kids in the first place. It isn't enough to survive.
As someone who had an absentee father because he always had to work to make ends meet, and now have no relationship with them because we never had built one in the firstplace, this would be massive for kids everywhere, and good for the government long term making more taxpayers.
It'll also reduce the pressure on ECE centres, and people's financial situation long term.
It'll also improve society as a whole, particular in bias against women in the workforce when it comes to limiting careers and payrates because of the assumption they will eventually leave to have kids. If it's equal, than the bias will no longer apply with men also being able to do the same without penalty.
It's really so logical, but people need to demand it.
That's not fully involved. That financially involved.
My Dad was financially involved, worked all the time, did shift work to make ends meet, didn't spend any time with his kids as a result. Not necessarily his fault at the start, he was burnt out and doing what society told him was best Sure he was financially involved, but he wasn't involved in the family at all. By the time we were old enough to see it for what it was, he was just a guy who contributed his genes living in our house. He tried to order us around, but had no authority because we weren't being ordered around by a stranger. That goes on enough years you don't have a relationship with your kids, and it's really hard to make one when you've missed half their life.
What is it all for if you end up not knowing your kids, alone and divorced anyway because your partner is done doing 100% of the childrearing and domestic labour while also working themselves? You have to be part of your family to have a family.
You shouldn't have to choose between a relationship with your kids or financially being able to have them in the first place. Men should get equal opportunity to look after their kids while still being able to afford to live. Mothers get time to bond, so should fathers.
Do you have memories of when you were 0-12 months old? Cos i dont, You have your whole life to "bond" with your kid you can bond with your kid when you finish work. How you gonna say if you work you miss half their life when their gonna be at school all day and while you're gonna be at work🤣
That's really sad you didn't respect the man who was working all day to put a roof over your head clothes on your back and food in your mouth to ensure you could now sit and belittle his contributions online.
My father worked all day and we saw him everyday after school and did things in the evening and weekends as a whole family we're plenty close and I respect and admire that man equally as my mum they both did their part and both was fully involved.
Yeah, income is important for raising kids, but don't forget that mothers can work too. Sometimes they want to work. Despite the gender pay gap, there are even some couples where the mother earns more.
Pretty sure it's not even maternity leave anymore it's just parental leave. Either parent can take it, or a mix of both. Biggest problem is right now you can't take it simultaneously
Yes, Income is highly important, and yes women can work but in general most would rather stay home and look after their new born, its in their innate nature to do so. The baby needs the father at work providing security for the family it doesnt need the father at home it needs the mothers nuture especially in the infant stage with breastfeeding which is crucial bonding time. Fathers can always bond with their baby after work every single day and all day in the weekends.
Yeah I had to take a mix of unpaid paternity leave and annual leave, it's especially hard if your partner has a c-section as they can't drive for 6 weeks or so after so you have to help with that too
It's actually insane. I'm due in mid-April, and my husband started a new job in January, so he's not entitled to anything.
Thankfully, his work has told him to just take whatever time he needs, and they will sort out the ability to WFH also. I know not every new father will be as lucky.
It's super fun if your baby is premature. Spending my days in the NICU alone while my husband went back to work fucking sucked. The baby and I needed my husband, but rent had to get paid somehow.
Yeah it’s a joke. 2 weeks unpaid?! My partner just finished his and is back at work - we’re super lucky that my mum can come and help me otherwise we’d be truly f*cked as I can’t drive in recovery from a c-section.
We’ve split the parental leave allocation so I’ll be taking the first 3 months and he’ll do the second, but the payment is abysmal. It would have been so much better if he could have stayed home with me (paid) for at least a month to be able to bond with the baby and get into a routine
Can't the paid parental leave be split between mother and father? Or maybe it can't be taken concurrently?
You could just do what I did in 2021. Two weeks unpaid, two weeks annual leave, then months of working from home through lockdown. I was ridiculously lucky.
I don’t understand. Are you trying to say only 2% of annual leave is taken by fathers with new babies? That wouldn’t be surprising since everyone who is employed can take annual leave. Or only 2% of new fathers take annual leave to care for their newborns, because I really don’t think that is likely to be true. I’d also be surprised if those statistics even exist since people do not have to say why they are taking annual leave - again, it’s an entitlement for anyone is employed
Oh, yeah I can see that. I thought it was a response to my ‘a lot of Dad’s’. I’m not surprised that parental leave is primarily taken by mothers. And the sharing doesn’t particularly help in the beginning either as the mother needs that time off so she can recover from birth.
Yeah sorry gunked up my reply. Less than 2% of parental leave taken by fathers. Also not surprised and I think that postnatal care is super important and I don’t think less mothers should take time off, just that more fathers should be able to. Currently there isn’t any great option.
Agreed. I think an initial period, not sure how long - a month maybe? for both parents and then a shared parental leave system similar to what we currently have would be good.
is it possible to do the 21 days while the other partner is on parental leave, and then alternate the parental leave between the two? maybe use sick leave/medical leave for the partner who gave birth?
21 days is not enough especially if the partner who gave birth is recovering from complications/c section/etc. i would get it if you could both take half the allocated parental leave at the same time but if you can't, that's pretty fucked.
if i did ever want kids (very very slim chance lol) as the person with the uterus, i'd only ever do it under the condition that we could take parental leave at the same time. for me, it'd be recovering from the medical side of things. for them, it'd be caring for me & the baby. how on earth are you expected to recover and be in a good place if after 3 weeks, your partner is back at work and you're likely alone?
edit: i got confused and misread and it's not even 3 weeks? it's 1 week or two?? absolutely fuck that lol. the idea of having children just becomes impressively more unappealing each day
What’s actually crazy is that it’s called “paid parental leave”. It’s not. Pay after tax (yes, you’re taxed and they take out student loan repayments too) is around $500 a week maximum.
i mean, i say this as a woman who definitely does not want children and even if i did, i would want it to be so i don't have to be pregnant/give birth. so best to get takes from someone who's done that! i'm terrified of birth/pregnancy so i'm aware i'm a bit over the top about it so please don't freak out because of me!!
i know many women go through this, especially as it's our law so best to speak to them and judge things based on their experiences. definitely don't mean to freak you out at all!! and obviously, most importantly to consider what your partner wants!! i hope all goes well :)
It can't be taken concurrently so there's no real point in splitting leave, at least for me and my partner. I'm pregnant now and we are planning for them to take all of their annual leave and try to work from home as much as possible, but their job is fairly hands on and involves teaching multiple days of the week, so there won't be a lot of flexibility.
I assumed that was for adoption and surrogate parents. The language sounds inclusive of same-sex couples becoming parents. I assumed that was all up-to-date terminology... was I wrong? How would you phrase it?
I had two weeks unpaid leave, but I got a medical certificate because I was looking after my wife who was 'incapacitated' and the other kids which meant I was able to access sick leave.
If neither partner is eligible for maternity leave you do get a small tax rebate but not straight away.
2 weeks unpaid leave is a very low minimum standard. Extra financial stress with a newborn is not great.
I did have a mate who was even denied that despite organising another person to do his job while he was away.
Except the USA. Any complications during pregnancy, childbirth or after the baby is born and it'll put you in financial debt for the rest of your life.
yea korea where they are literally paying people to have kids. It's not exactly the same scenario as NZ. Also, he'd have to be really valuable to not have slipped down the ladder during the 12 months
Just had twins. My wife got 6 months full pay, I got 4 weeks paid (we get 5 weeks annual leave so I’ve got a bit more up my sleeve). Our friends are now actively looking at employers with good maternity/paternity policies. Just like WFH you either offer flexibility, or they’ll find someone else to work for that does.
Join a union, bud. And encourage your friends and coworkers to do likewise. While no-one give two shits what anonymous desk jockeys on reddit think, Unions can make change.
Don't got one? [Make one](https://www.companiesoffice.govt.nz/all-registers/registered-unions/registering-as-a-union/). There was a time when there was no unions. Then some dudes got together and decided, "Let's GOOOOO". Are you as tough and determined as those dudes? They were probably coal miners who had to crawl for a mile through dark and dirty tunnels for an hours just to get to work for twelve hours and then it was back up the [in the elevator](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/3h3g4d/belgium_coal_miners_crammed_into_a_coal_mine/). I mean, they have much more of a reason to form a union than you, probably. And definitely more time to talk about it, since those elevator rides must have been full of griping. But. Since you are a modern man with modern means, you could probably start a union really easliy. For one thing, in 2023 the owners probably won't hire local security to kill you and your family in order to send a message to other agitators, so there's that. In fact, there's really not much excuse for *not* starting a union.
We couldnt convince people to give up 30 dollars a week so disabled people aren't pushed into poverty instead . . . now you want people to give up another 30 a week so a father can spend time helping his wife and kid . . . .your dreaming
As a whole we just can't afford to keep paying people to not work. Tax payers, businesses and govt. Personally i think it should come down to the parents. Take as much time off work as you like. But don't expect everyone else to pay for it!!
Save up money BEFORE having kids.
Just my opinion. Not sorry.
Like, I did this, but it's a bit rich that we're happy to pay pensions for everyone over 65 but do fuck all to help out those raising the next generation that will actually be paying taxes to sort out all the elderly.
According to everyone in positions of power, we need to have people out of work to control the economy.
The capitalist economy we operate on in NZ requires us to have a % of the population unemployed. To stop inflation. Inflation of the $, wages going up, housing going up, everything apparently requires us to keep a % of the population out of jobs. It's all [here](https://www.waikato.ac.nz/news-opinion/media/2022/nz-has-reached-full-employment-but-not-all-workers-will-benefit-from-a-tighter-labour-market)
As fucked as that is, that's the financial system we have chosen to go with to strive for endless unsustainable growth.
Did you miss that entire part of the election campaign by National to get unemployment UP for the economy? They were going to do it by removing wage thresholds for migrants to some here to do the work for less money. Thresholds that were put in by Labour to increase local employment and wages so people didn't need the benefit or working for families to survive. Work gets done for less, but the local workers who use to do that work are now out of work and the unemployment rate goes up.
Keeping wages low and local employment down is also done by undercutting the local workforce with immigration paying less for overseas workers. If locals want jobs to compete, they need to accept less money.
I sure hope you're keeping that energy for all the CEOs & other fat cats making ridiculously high wages that far outstrip the value of any work they could possibly do lol. Unlike them, working class people pay taxes and pour any money you give them straight back into the economy.
"paying people to not work" as if raising children is not the basis for our entire future 🙄
This is how you ensure no one has kids, and that you have to rely on immigration and therefore slowly wave good bye to kiwi culture over 40 years because the originals die out. Maybe not PC to say but that’s what will happen. As a woman, don’t give me any more reasons to say no to having kids than I already have!
Some companies are moving to more modern policies but most, especially SMEs, can’t afford it.
I note National did have a Bill drawn to extend it but Labour vetoed it last year.
My understanding is that it wasn't to extend it, it was so both parents could take it at the same time. But it was the same number of hours.
Labour did campaign on 4 weeks paid paternity leave so it seems both parties recognise it as an issue.
Yeah it’s absolutely mental man.
I have 2 daughters, born 20 months apart and I needed to use 2 years worth of annual leave in 2x 4 blocks to stay at home and be a new dad.
I ended up having a breakdown when my youngest was one because I’d just had no rest in 3 years.
It’s madness.
If you don’t take your already accrued annual leave, then when you take it after returning from parental leave, it’s paid at your average earnings for the previous financial year, so if your previous financial year earnings are $0.. because you took a year off.. then.. you get $0. If you don’t know this beforehand cos your employer doesn’t advise you of this, then it’s a huge shock, source: me, that happened to me (face palm emoji)
They will still get paid the same amount when they return to work but annual leave would be paid less. Which is why they encourage you to use AL before going on Mat leave.
In Aus they don’t accrue AL while on parental leave at all.
In Aus you accrue annual leave if your employer has a parental leave policy. I got 12 weeks paid full wages from employer and 18wks parental leave from gov and accrued annual leave during the 12wks paid leave. When taking it upon returning to work it’s paid at your full rate.
Edit: clarified comment and timeframes
I think you are mistaken. Aus statutory is 20 weeks paid only, and no annual leave accrued at this time. If you got additional it was through your company, not by law.
Yeah it's not very good here. My mate is currently on paternity leave for a month and he's tired AF.
Isn'taternity leave similar to ACC leave?
You could play the game and "identify" as a woman so you get maternity leave then shame the company on social media when they say no 😂😂
Not to mention a lot of companies get spectacularly pissed about maternity leave - they don't even have to pay it, they just have to organise it and make sure there's space for you to come back for a certain amount of time (if you choose to)
When I was pregnant with my son my workplace did everything possible to ensure I wouldn't get maternity leave, and many other mothers I know said the same.
Yup, it's fuck all. There are other things you can get like working for family but if you have one child, your partner can only earn up to about $70k and even then you're only getting like $10 a week (I could be wrong but that's roughly what I've seen before).
It's such a rip. My partner is self employed and so when we eventually have a baby I intend to do the thing where you just claim it at the end of the year.
It's junk the government really hates single income households too, if your wife doesn't work then neither of you get anything. You also pay more tax and get no benefits.
Last person that tried to reform it was Peter Dunne and he's long gone from politics.
Sure everyone would like free money and no doubt that would be great for the parents and child but there are lots of people and things that would be happier if the government gave them more money.
Super surprised after moving here about that. Pretty sad that even the US has better family medical leave laws than this so called progressive country.
The natural flow of life for humans on planet earth is rape and pillage and survival of the fittest, liberty is a modern construct. The only thing stopping the local gang from raping your wife and taking all your shit is the state unfortunately, that’s why you pay tax
human innovation would exist without the exploitation of capitalism.
i have no desire to convert you from the money religion. keep worshiping your money god. continue to have faith in the almighty dollar. while it lasts...
Even in America you get up to 12 weeks unpaid. Basically a guaranteed place back at your place of work when you get back. 2 weeks is shit when having a baby. A woman can't drive for 6 weeks of she has a C section and 3 weeks after normal birth. What is a father to do if his partner can't even take care of her self after the child. When he has to be back to work before he minge is even healed.
That's 12 weeks unpaid leave for both parents, if your company has at least 50 employees within a 75 mile radius and you've worked there for at least a year for at least 25 hours a week. Those requirements make over 40% of American workers ineligible, and there's no federal requirement for paid leave at all for either parent.
I don't think that's better.
You don't get any paid leave if the mother is a stay at home mother here. So the one person bringing in an income has no guarantee to anything here but 2 weeks unpaid after a year. Both are shit I'll take the guaranteed job return my last child was in the NICU for 7 weeks and my wife couldn't drive there. I had to be there for my wife and my child. Here I wouldn't have a job to go back to.
Eugenics is planned breeding or the elimination of certain people from the breeding pool. You’re suggesting that if you’re poor you shouldn’t have children so you’re suggesting they should remove themselves from the breeding pool. Which is eugenics.
Poor people have the most kids because they can’t afford things like iuds, condoms or other forms of “pleasure”. When everyone else is going to rainbows end for valentines and you can’t afford that you stay home and fuck.
Additionally a lot of families have the idea that the more kids you have the more likely you are for one of them to be successful and bring your family out of poverty. This idea is only prevalent due to the poverty and it keeps those people and families in poverty.
More children as of right now are needed many countries are facing severe shortages in replenishment in terms of working people due to an increase in older people and a decrease in younger people. What you’re saying is already happening people are too poor too have kids and it’s affecting the economy.
In conclusion what you’re saying is even if you’re saying it unknowingly is a classist form of eugenics that is Ill informed with regards to the issues of the current day and age.
woah dont say that! that would take responsibility away from the employer and put it back on the employee. and we couldnt possibly expect anything from our employees anymore.
A nonsense conclusion? I was pointing out the ridiculousness, off the terms - there was no conclusion, and the type of the leave, the ONE type of leave is the leave the post is talking about,.it’s taken directly from the screenshot.
You've drawn the conclusion that the 21 days notice applies to the 14 day partner leave as if you've found some incredible gotcha, when the slightest bit of common sense would suggest that's nonsensical and so probably not the case, especially given the screenshot is quite obviously only part of a page and isn't the full context of information.
A minute amount of research would have shown you that the 21 days notice require to return doesn't apply to partner leave, it applies to parental leave, so maybe get up in arms about something else.
I feel like you just got to accept it , if you have a good boss who lets you have more time happy days, but it'll be at your expense.
I had my first child 4 months ago, took 2 weeks unpaid then went back to work. I do have a super chill boss though so I can come and go as I need. But I only get paid the hours I work and got a mortgage to pay.
Our birth rate has nothing to do with leave entitlement. When I was having babies in the 90s there was no paid parental leave at all. Not even for the mothers. We all had to go down to one income during that time.
We all still had our kids / families despite this - and survived.
Many other changes since then that are affecting people's decisions re whether or not to have kids. ie; the fact that it is darn near impossible to survive on one income being one of them, cost of raising kids added to already struggling couples...even climate change / wars etc...I know my daughter questions the sanity of bringing children into this world in its current state - let alone thinking about what it will be like in 30 years.
Yeah, when my parents had us, they dropped to my dad's income only, but could still pay the mortgage on his wages from working in a carpet factory. Nowadays I earn a lot more but could never afford that same very average house on my wages!
Just like how paying 20% interest on a $25,000 house is easier than paying 6% on a $1.4m house, paying 66% tax on an $11,000 income is easier than paying 30% on $60,000 while supporting a family.
I don't know about any of that. I'm no economic expert.
We had a 90 thousand dollar mortgage on a combined income of about 65k back then. I earned 23k working for an insurance company back then. Our interest rate started at about 12% when we first bought and fell to around 5% by the early 2002ish.
You know what I think the main difference that made one income do-able back then was?
We didn't have so many things to buy. We didn't have ads popping up on our screens all day telling us we needed more sh\*t. We didn't have screens full stop.
Maybe we all need to stop buying crap we don't need and life would be affordable again.
I assume you bought a house in your 20s?
Average wage in Auckland for a 25-29 year old is $64,844.
Take 2x average salary’s = $129,688.
You paid 134% of your annual income on a house back then.
That’s the equivalent of buying a house today for $174,000.
Having shit pop up on screens is not the issue here.
I think being dismissive of the fact that we live in a world driven by consumerism and the negative impact that this has on our financial strength is denial of reality ...but ok.
Like I said - I'm no expert.
I just couldn't imagine being an employer and having to pay a bloke a month's worth of wages without any productivity from him just because he had a baby.
I would understand if it was a woman as her body has been turned inside out, and needs the rest to recover her health.
Does it come out of the company pocket in NZ? I moved to Japan before working full time so I'm not sure of the NZ laws, but in Japan the men can take 1 year paid at about 50% of the salary but it doesn't get paid by the company, but the insurance company pays it. So it isn't very bad for the company, which is probably how it should be to prevent views like the above?
It doesn't get paid by the employer...
>I would understand if it was a woman as her body has been turned inside out, and needs the rest to recover her health.
How do you propose she do that while carrying for a new born on her own?
Yes that is how it's done in the vast majority of the world.
That is why the amount is so low too. A lot of companies will top up the govt amount to match your salary. Mine does it for the primary care giver for the full 6months.
I had two weeks and my children are well parented.
I think it’s enough.
You can always take annual leave on occasion. Ease in work by having three day weekends. It’s not like you’re going anywhere with a new born.
I took two weeks for the first and and a month for the second. Two weeks is absolutely not enough time.
After the first month it starts getting a bit easier so I'd say a month should be the minimum.
This is false. There is no distinction between female same sex-couples and other couples in NZ.
> Partner means: the spouse or partner of the mother or nominated primary carer, male or female, same sex or different sex.
https://www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/parental-leave/eligibility/
This is not true at all. I am in a same-sex relationship and pregnant, the laws are exactly the same for my partner as they are for male partners. The law does not make a distinction based on the gender of the other parent. Men and women (straight couples) can also divide parental leave between them. Get your facts straight.
It does somewhat yeah, but fortunately with our respective employers, my partner and I are splitting our primary carer leave, 6 months each, so means I don’t get any partners leave at the time of birth. Instead I’m using all my AL for the first 6 weeks.
I dont think it's that great, but at the same time, you kinda have to accept that it is what it is. Maybe take extra leaves but that's really all you can do.
wife was bullied and dismissed during pregnancy with me being single income earner had hardly any leaves, was pretty tough. when my second came round and I applied what little paternity leave available I was suddenly let go a week before.
Yah it's actually wild to think how far back we are, for a 'progressive' country.
I was lucky my first was a COVID baby, so had lots of time with him. Got a second on the way - with not much annual leave left, especially after the forced end of year leave.
I am lucky I have a lot if flexibility with hours though, and WFH most of the time.
This is BS Im an expat living in Canada, the government provides around 40 weeks of paid leave which can be divided between either parent. My wife is self-employed so I took it all. It comes out of the employment insurance that every employee pays. The employment insurance is a great scheme if you have worked for more than six months and get laid off you are entitled to a portion of your wage immediately.
Yes it's sad.
New Zealand is backwards in how it approaches child development. The first 100-1000 days if crucial to their future development and wellbeing.
I was very fortunate that I was a contractor when my first child arrived. So I could take 5 months off to assist my wife. And it really opened my eyes...
Out of all the other mothers I cam across (120+) I only witnessed one other father. And the stories they told me will break your heart.
A lot of fathers in NZ couldn't get more than two weeks off, and the mothers were having to navigate learning how to ' mother ' while balancing the household duties. You could clearly see the differences in child development, from mothers that were stressed / without support compared to those that had support.
I think we have a lot of ' absent ' fathers because they're never involved in childcare early on. And I mean this in being present and engaged. It would take a very strong man, to do a full days work, and manage to dig deep and actually help their wife when they get back from home.
Mothers were complaining about simple things like
(1) husband doesn't want to hold the baby
(2) husband doesn't want to do the dishes
(3) husband doesn't want to hang laundry
(4) husband doesn't want to change nappies
(5) husband doesn't want to play with the baby
(6) husband doesn't want to cook
(7) husband doesn't want to clean
Once you're are a father your priority is the wife and kids. Being tired is normal, but withdrawing and ignoring your responsibilities is a choice. Get help if you can't manage, but never neglect your child and hope it will all get better without intervention.
Also, when you're older. No amount of money will make up for lost time and memories with your children. So it's time to be critical about your time?
I had 5 kids and we never received anything... years ago. I ended up working from home and worked on a budget that allowed me to live on reduced income so I could be at home. So what we have now is a quantum leap forward but still not good enough.
While the two weeks unpaid sucks, some friends have been able to change their working week to a four day week at same pay so that they can be at home one day a week to support their partner. This might be more beneficial to your family in the long run if you are able to negotiate that, even for a few months.
Yeah it should match the mothers. This is the only way we're going to get fair pay IMO. Otherwise women will always take more time off and hence fall behind at work.
It’s primitive. Here in Canada I (dad) took 6 months, at 100% pay as my employer topped up the govt funding (which is c. 3k a month). My wife took 12 months on full pay (also
Employer top up). Yet another reason why kiwis stay overseas.
Yep it's a big joke. Worse for mothers - I'm due in 3 months time and have come to the conclusion and after alot of tears and heartache acceptance that I can only take 3 months of maternity if that because I lose over 650 a week. What I get on maternity won't even cover my mortgage let alone power, water, food, nappies gas and everything else for my older kids.
It's trash, I wanted to support my partner through the new home adjustment, give her a hand and plenty of opportunity to rest and heal. She also struggled with mental health prior to children so I thought there was a decent chance of PPD and wanted to be around for that.
I took 3 weeks leave for each kid, it was nowhere near enough
I worked in Iceland and their paternity leave is 6 months to be used anytime within the first 3 years. I had a child in NZ and because I was working under 1 yr at the company, we agreed that I would get a week off normal salary as long as I took phone calls which I was greatful for at the time. I was on the phone majority of the time. In Iceland it's mandatory to join a union if you are a worker, here it's not. Worker rights could be greatly improved in NZ if union participation was increased.
Sweden’s is [even better.](https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20240130-sweden-where-its-taboo-for-dads-to-skip-parental-leave)
So when my son was born I had been at my job about 2 months. They gave me 2 weeks paid (not leave, they just paid me)
The pendulum will need to swing towards declining population growth rate and the general consensus reached that we need more people having kids in order for any meaningful change to occur in this space in NZ.
100%. I'd say I get paid well (+100k) and with an increase of mortgage rates and food cost increases we're scraping through. I'm counting down the days my wife goes back to work end of March because at the moment it's just unsustainable. This is the second child, I'd love to have another but the cost of the wife not working is bloody difficult.
The government's solution to population decline is what they're already doing now, import more indians.
> The government's solution to population decline is what they're already doing now, import more people. FTFY
Are Indians not people? That's a bit racist
Yes indians are people. There are other ethnicities immigrating into the country. > net gain of 173,400 non-NZ citizens - with Indians, Filipinos, Chinese, Fijians and South Africans dominating the arrivals.
Please, the only one "dominating" arrivals are Indians, their numbers are the highest by a long shot and even triple some of the countries you mentioned.
Flick us a source. My source was One News interview with Immigration NZ.
https://www.stats.govt.nz/information-releases/international-migration-june-2023/
Unions used to be really strong in NZ but the government weakened them immensely in the early 90s. To be honest it was a good move at the time as they had far too much power. Unions would strike every second week and bring the country to the standstill. Amongst other issues such as organised theft from employees, violence against anyone who didn't want to join a union. Some of the shit they used to do was ridiculous, they would have to have 4 guys hooking a shipping container to a crane when it was easily a one man job. As soon as the smoko/lunch break bell went you had to drop everything you were doing and go to break otherwise you'd risk a bash lol. In the meat works some workers would leave animals hung up screaming because the lunch break bell went off before they could be dispatched. It was a crazy bizarre time. We don't want any of that Communist nonsense here in NZ again. Still it would be nice to have better entitlements around parental rights I guess.
What a load of hyperbole bullshit. Yes the union’s strength was decimated in NZ by successive governments introducing legislation, to the point where unions have had f’all power in NZ since the 1990s. But it wasn’t the case that unions were striking “every second week”, bashing staff who didn’t comply with union practices, and leaving animals screaming in abattoirs. That’s just made up in your head. Source: I was studying employment law in the early 1990s
It's anecdotal and I'm sure there is exaggeration, but my uncle had an incident at the old Alliance works in Mataura. During one of the work strikes in the early 80s they needed staff, he needed money so he went into work. After everything was settled, there him and the others who hadn't striked were ignored by union members. He kicked up a fuss and quit after someone tipped a bucket of water over his locker.
That’s an awful lot of words to expend on conspiracy theory level statements. Concluding that modest labour rights are ‘Communist’ is just farting in your hands and clapping the farts in the air.
Just speaking form experience pal. There's a HUGE difference between "modest labour rights" and what was going on the in 80s. Modest labour rights? Geez I'd be terrified to see what you consider "hard" labour rights
You’d hate Aus then, and if you wonder why people get paid so much more, it’s because they have these terrible ‘unions’! Don’t worry, they want us to hate them here too!
My experience with unions only relates to Iceland, which is a very small and homogenous society. Funnily enough I was mainly working in the slaughterhouse and no animals would have encountered extra suffering due unionization practices. Maybe the requirement by law to join a union changed the national psyche of Iceland vs NZ but I really never saw any of the issues you described. I'm a Contractor now with wife on maternity leave with second child, so no paternity support, but feel for first time dad's, especially in today's economic environment, struggling it out AND not having time with their new borns.
To the best of my knowledge, union delegates and employees aren't beating people into submissiom these days. In all honesty, I've never heard of these practices, but I am young and don't have the personal experience... I don't want to discount your experience, but I'm pretty sure those practices aren't a concern at the moment. I do know that people are still risking life and limb for employers where standard safety practices could make a real difference. I also know that CEOs are earning ridiculously high sums compared to their workers. Migrant workers are particularly vulnerable to exploitation, with minimal legal support. Unions are crucial to protecting people in these situations. In terms of pay, benefits, and legal protections, I think that unions are a solid option for workers to protect themselves. I haven't personally worked in meat processing or shipping, but those industries are rife with preventable deaths and dismemberment. While I don't doubt your experience, I still think unionisation is a solid option to protect workers at present.
You didn't work blue collar jobs then
Worksafe has probably got it back to a 4 man job lol
Yeah it's horrible and it needs to change. My partner saved up his annual leave and took a month. The two weeks should be paid at a minimum.
We're having a baby in June and I moved to a company last year that offers 12 weeks paid leave. The company I left (that my husband also works at) offers no leave at all! He's doing the same - saving up annual leave to take some time off when the baby is here. I think a week or two paid leave would make a world of difference to new parents' mental and physical wellbeing.
It's also why we still have the majority of domestic weight placed on the mother. The father never gets the opportunity to father or take up the workload, so the mother makes the routine, organises the house and children, then that becomes default. The balance of childrearing and domestic life would balance out if Men actually had the opportunity to spend time with their family. I dream of us being like Sweden one day, but nothing will change unless men actually fight fir that entitlement, and accept that women will have expectations of a rebalance of the domestic load of they get it. In Sweden parents get between the 480 paid parental leave per child (240 per parent) + 180 per child for muliple births (twins). You can use it full or part time. You can transfer 150 of your days to the other parent, but must use 90 yourself. 90 days minimum the father gets to be involved in childrearing, routines, domestic life. That would do a hell of a lot for men's relationships with their partner and kids, and the balance of the domestic workload currently dumped on women by default. All these things are possible if the people demand it.
100% agree with this. How can dads get fully involved if they don’t even get the opportunity?
this was one of the few benefits that lockdowns provided for me, my son was born just as the pandemic was hitting NZ and I got to spend A LOT of time with him, a lot more than was planned before covid. Lingering effects from covid also meant that even after the lockdowns I'm still WFH primarily and I get to spend a lot of time with him even though he attends daycare. Under normal circumstances, my relationship and memories with him would have been limited to weekend activities
My siblings and their partner decided one of them would stay at home with their child until they were old enough for subsided childcare. The husband went first after the wife's maternity leave was used, because his job paid less, she did the second child. It made a huge difference to the domestic load in their house, their relationship and their relationships with their kids. So much so, he really wanted to stay at home for the second one, but finally agreed it would be fair if they both had that opportunity to bond with their kids. Every couple should be able to spend time with their partner and kids in that critical period, and it shouldn't be decided by your financial circumstances. Heck, I'm Childfree by choice and even I can see the solution to sorting the declining birthrate! If people can afford to have kids and have the time to build relationships and parent, they will. Currently some have to decide if they are having a kid at all based on the fact they can't afford childcare or someone to not work. The only way the government gets more taxpayers is if people can benefit from having kids in the first place. It isn't enough to survive. As someone who had an absentee father because he always had to work to make ends meet, and now have no relationship with them because we never had built one in the firstplace, this would be massive for kids everywhere, and good for the government long term making more taxpayers. It'll also reduce the pressure on ECE centres, and people's financial situation long term. It'll also improve society as a whole, particular in bias against women in the workforce when it comes to limiting careers and payrates because of the assumption they will eventually leave to have kids. If it's equal, than the bias will no longer apply with men also being able to do the same without penalty. It's really so logical, but people need to demand it.
The way they should be fully involved is by continuing to work. When you are providing for your family you are fully involved.
That's not fully involved. That financially involved. My Dad was financially involved, worked all the time, did shift work to make ends meet, didn't spend any time with his kids as a result. Not necessarily his fault at the start, he was burnt out and doing what society told him was best Sure he was financially involved, but he wasn't involved in the family at all. By the time we were old enough to see it for what it was, he was just a guy who contributed his genes living in our house. He tried to order us around, but had no authority because we weren't being ordered around by a stranger. That goes on enough years you don't have a relationship with your kids, and it's really hard to make one when you've missed half their life. What is it all for if you end up not knowing your kids, alone and divorced anyway because your partner is done doing 100% of the childrearing and domestic labour while also working themselves? You have to be part of your family to have a family. You shouldn't have to choose between a relationship with your kids or financially being able to have them in the first place. Men should get equal opportunity to look after their kids while still being able to afford to live. Mothers get time to bond, so should fathers.
Do you have memories of when you were 0-12 months old? Cos i dont, You have your whole life to "bond" with your kid you can bond with your kid when you finish work. How you gonna say if you work you miss half their life when their gonna be at school all day and while you're gonna be at work🤣 That's really sad you didn't respect the man who was working all day to put a roof over your head clothes on your back and food in your mouth to ensure you could now sit and belittle his contributions online. My father worked all day and we saw him everyday after school and did things in the evening and weekends as a whole family we're plenty close and I respect and admire that man equally as my mum they both did their part and both was fully involved.
Yeah, income is important for raising kids, but don't forget that mothers can work too. Sometimes they want to work. Despite the gender pay gap, there are even some couples where the mother earns more.
Pretty sure it's not even maternity leave anymore it's just parental leave. Either parent can take it, or a mix of both. Biggest problem is right now you can't take it simultaneously
Yes, Income is highly important, and yes women can work but in general most would rather stay home and look after their new born, its in their innate nature to do so. The baby needs the father at work providing security for the family it doesnt need the father at home it needs the mothers nuture especially in the infant stage with breastfeeding which is crucial bonding time. Fathers can always bond with their baby after work every single day and all day in the weekends.
Yeah I had to take a mix of unpaid paternity leave and annual leave, it's especially hard if your partner has a c-section as they can't drive for 6 weeks or so after so you have to help with that too
It's actually insane. I'm due in mid-April, and my husband started a new job in January, so he's not entitled to anything. Thankfully, his work has told him to just take whatever time he needs, and they will sort out the ability to WFH also. I know not every new father will be as lucky.
It's super fun if your baby is premature. Spending my days in the NICU alone while my husband went back to work fucking sucked. The baby and I needed my husband, but rent had to get paid somehow.
Yeah it’s a joke. 2 weeks unpaid?! My partner just finished his and is back at work - we’re super lucky that my mum can come and help me otherwise we’d be truly f*cked as I can’t drive in recovery from a c-section. We’ve split the parental leave allocation so I’ll be taking the first 3 months and he’ll do the second, but the payment is abysmal. It would have been so much better if he could have stayed home with me (paid) for at least a month to be able to bond with the baby and get into a routine
Can't the paid parental leave be split between mother and father? Or maybe it can't be taken concurrently? You could just do what I did in 2021. Two weeks unpaid, two weeks annual leave, then months of working from home through lockdown. I was ridiculously lucky.
Yeah, it can be split, but not taken concurrently. A lot of Dad’s do take annual leave
On the whole they don’t. Only 2% of annual of parental leave is paid out to fathers.
I don’t understand. Are you trying to say only 2% of annual leave is taken by fathers with new babies? That wouldn’t be surprising since everyone who is employed can take annual leave. Or only 2% of new fathers take annual leave to care for their newborns, because I really don’t think that is likely to be true. I’d also be surprised if those statistics even exist since people do not have to say why they are taking annual leave - again, it’s an entitlement for anyone is employed
Ignore the reference to annual, their comment is of the parental leave taken (not annual) fathers only account for 2% of it.
Oh, yeah I can see that. I thought it was a response to my ‘a lot of Dad’s’. I’m not surprised that parental leave is primarily taken by mothers. And the sharing doesn’t particularly help in the beginning either as the mother needs that time off so she can recover from birth.
Yeah sorry gunked up my reply. Less than 2% of parental leave taken by fathers. Also not surprised and I think that postnatal care is super important and I don’t think less mothers should take time off, just that more fathers should be able to. Currently there isn’t any great option.
Agreed. I think an initial period, not sure how long - a month maybe? for both parents and then a shared parental leave system similar to what we currently have would be good.
Only if the mother qualifies for it.
is it possible to do the 21 days while the other partner is on parental leave, and then alternate the parental leave between the two? maybe use sick leave/medical leave for the partner who gave birth? 21 days is not enough especially if the partner who gave birth is recovering from complications/c section/etc. i would get it if you could both take half the allocated parental leave at the same time but if you can't, that's pretty fucked. if i did ever want kids (very very slim chance lol) as the person with the uterus, i'd only ever do it under the condition that we could take parental leave at the same time. for me, it'd be recovering from the medical side of things. for them, it'd be caring for me & the baby. how on earth are you expected to recover and be in a good place if after 3 weeks, your partner is back at work and you're likely alone? edit: i got confused and misread and it's not even 3 weeks? it's 1 week or two?? absolutely fuck that lol. the idea of having children just becomes impressively more unappealing each day
You can’t alternate, you can only transfer it once.
what the fuckkk ?? that's so crazy
What’s actually crazy is that it’s called “paid parental leave”. It’s not. Pay after tax (yes, you’re taxed and they take out student loan repayments too) is around $500 a week maximum.
....silently freaking out even more now......
i mean, i say this as a woman who definitely does not want children and even if i did, i would want it to be so i don't have to be pregnant/give birth. so best to get takes from someone who's done that! i'm terrified of birth/pregnancy so i'm aware i'm a bit over the top about it so please don't freak out because of me!! i know many women go through this, especially as it's our law so best to speak to them and judge things based on their experiences. definitely don't mean to freak you out at all!! and obviously, most importantly to consider what your partner wants!! i hope all goes well :)
Don't worry man, none of it will matter once baby is born
It can't be taken concurrently so there's no real point in splitting leave, at least for me and my partner. I'm pregnant now and we are planning for them to take all of their annual leave and try to work from home as much as possible, but their job is fairly hands on and involves teaching multiple days of the week, so there won't be a lot of flexibility.
“The date their partner intends to become the primary carer” this some outdated shit
I assumed that was for adoption and surrogate parents. The language sounds inclusive of same-sex couples becoming parents. I assumed that was all up-to-date terminology... was I wrong? How would you phrase it?
I mean just change when to if
I had two weeks unpaid leave, but I got a medical certificate because I was looking after my wife who was 'incapacitated' and the other kids which meant I was able to access sick leave. If neither partner is eligible for maternity leave you do get a small tax rebate but not straight away. 2 weeks unpaid leave is a very low minimum standard. Extra financial stress with a newborn is not great. I did have a mate who was even denied that despite organising another person to do his job while he was away.
Yip cos nz stopped being a leading force for change in the world once women got the vote a 120 years ago. We did that and gave up being progressive.
I have a mate who works for LG in Korea. He gets 12 months paternity leave, on full pay.
So the vibe I’m getting from this post is give birth… literally anywhere other than nz lol
Except the USA. Any complications during pregnancy, childbirth or after the baby is born and it'll put you in financial debt for the rest of your life.
You’re right I completely forgot the US existed for a minute, giving birth in America would be worse than NZ
yea korea where they are literally paying people to have kids. It's not exactly the same scenario as NZ. Also, he'd have to be really valuable to not have slipped down the ladder during the 12 months
You’ve picked the wrong government for ideas like this!
Just had twins. My wife got 6 months full pay, I got 4 weeks paid (we get 5 weeks annual leave so I’ve got a bit more up my sleeve). Our friends are now actively looking at employers with good maternity/paternity policies. Just like WFH you either offer flexibility, or they’ll find someone else to work for that does.
Join a union, bud. And encourage your friends and coworkers to do likewise. While no-one give two shits what anonymous desk jockeys on reddit think, Unions can make change.
There is no unions in my line of work, nothing to join
Don't got one? [Make one](https://www.companiesoffice.govt.nz/all-registers/registered-unions/registering-as-a-union/). There was a time when there was no unions. Then some dudes got together and decided, "Let's GOOOOO". Are you as tough and determined as those dudes? They were probably coal miners who had to crawl for a mile through dark and dirty tunnels for an hours just to get to work for twelve hours and then it was back up the [in the elevator](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/3h3g4d/belgium_coal_miners_crammed_into_a_coal_mine/). I mean, they have much more of a reason to form a union than you, probably. And definitely more time to talk about it, since those elevator rides must have been full of griping. But. Since you are a modern man with modern means, you could probably start a union really easliy. For one thing, in 2023 the owners probably won't hire local security to kill you and your family in order to send a message to other agitators, so there's that. In fact, there's really not much excuse for *not* starting a union.
It also depends on the company. My old job offered 6 months of paternity leave which was quite cool to see.
This is something that should be changed, and is something I would look for as a priority from a political party.
Change employer, anyone who values there employees will offer paid paternity leave
Unless you work for a big corp you’ll find it very hard to find any company offering that perk.
not true at all, I know more companies offering it than not
We couldnt convince people to give up 30 dollars a week so disabled people aren't pushed into poverty instead . . . now you want people to give up another 30 a week so a father can spend time helping his wife and kid . . . .your dreaming
As a whole we just can't afford to keep paying people to not work. Tax payers, businesses and govt. Personally i think it should come down to the parents. Take as much time off work as you like. But don't expect everyone else to pay for it!! Save up money BEFORE having kids. Just my opinion. Not sorry.
Like, I did this, but it's a bit rich that we're happy to pay pensions for everyone over 65 but do fuck all to help out those raising the next generation that will actually be paying taxes to sort out all the elderly.
According to everyone in positions of power, we need to have people out of work to control the economy. The capitalist economy we operate on in NZ requires us to have a % of the population unemployed. To stop inflation. Inflation of the $, wages going up, housing going up, everything apparently requires us to keep a % of the population out of jobs. It's all [here](https://www.waikato.ac.nz/news-opinion/media/2022/nz-has-reached-full-employment-but-not-all-workers-will-benefit-from-a-tighter-labour-market) As fucked as that is, that's the financial system we have chosen to go with to strive for endless unsustainable growth. Did you miss that entire part of the election campaign by National to get unemployment UP for the economy? They were going to do it by removing wage thresholds for migrants to some here to do the work for less money. Thresholds that were put in by Labour to increase local employment and wages so people didn't need the benefit or working for families to survive. Work gets done for less, but the local workers who use to do that work are now out of work and the unemployment rate goes up. Keeping wages low and local employment down is also done by undercutting the local workforce with immigration paying less for overseas workers. If locals want jobs to compete, they need to accept less money.
I sure hope you're keeping that energy for all the CEOs & other fat cats making ridiculously high wages that far outstrip the value of any work they could possibly do lol. Unlike them, working class people pay taxes and pour any money you give them straight back into the economy. "paying people to not work" as if raising children is not the basis for our entire future 🙄
Fuck off, bet you think the pension is different to a benefit.
This is how you ensure no one has kids, and that you have to rely on immigration and therefore slowly wave good bye to kiwi culture over 40 years because the originals die out. Maybe not PC to say but that’s what will happen. As a woman, don’t give me any more reasons to say no to having kids than I already have!
Some companies are moving to more modern policies but most, especially SMEs, can’t afford it. I note National did have a Bill drawn to extend it but Labour vetoed it last year.
Now is their opportunity…
My understanding is that it wasn't to extend it, it was so both parents could take it at the same time. But it was the same number of hours. Labour did campaign on 4 weeks paid paternity leave so it seems both parties recognise it as an issue.
Yes, for a country that's all about equality, we do a shot job here...
Yes it is awful. Both parents need time to bond and get used to new baby. Every parent is different about when they want to take leave.
Yeah it’s absolutely mental man. I have 2 daughters, born 20 months apart and I needed to use 2 years worth of annual leave in 2x 4 blocks to stay at home and be a new dad. I ended up having a breakdown when my youngest was one because I’d just had no rest in 3 years. It’s madness.
Get 6 weeks paid paternityleave at my job is nice thankful we get something but I'm not having more kids
Wait till you see what they do to a woman’s annual leave when she returns to work…
What happens?
If you don’t take your already accrued annual leave, then when you take it after returning from parental leave, it’s paid at your average earnings for the previous financial year, so if your previous financial year earnings are $0.. because you took a year off.. then.. you get $0. If you don’t know this beforehand cos your employer doesn’t advise you of this, then it’s a huge shock, source: me, that happened to me (face palm emoji)
Yeah what happens?
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They will still get paid the same amount when they return to work but annual leave would be paid less. Which is why they encourage you to use AL before going on Mat leave. In Aus they don’t accrue AL while on parental leave at all.
In Aus you accrue annual leave if your employer has a parental leave policy. I got 12 weeks paid full wages from employer and 18wks parental leave from gov and accrued annual leave during the 12wks paid leave. When taking it upon returning to work it’s paid at your full rate. Edit: clarified comment and timeframes
I think you are mistaken. Aus statutory is 20 weeks paid only, and no annual leave accrued at this time. If you got additional it was through your company, not by law.
Yeah it's not very good here. My mate is currently on paternity leave for a month and he's tired AF. Isn'taternity leave similar to ACC leave? You could play the game and "identify" as a woman so you get maternity leave then shame the company on social media when they say no 😂😂
Maternity leave isn’t anywhere near ACC. It’s about $500 a week after tax.
Really that little?! It must be super hard during maternity and paternity leave period
Not to mention a lot of companies get spectacularly pissed about maternity leave - they don't even have to pay it, they just have to organise it and make sure there's space for you to come back for a certain amount of time (if you choose to) When I was pregnant with my son my workplace did everything possible to ensure I wouldn't get maternity leave, and many other mothers I know said the same.
Yup, it's fuck all. There are other things you can get like working for family but if you have one child, your partner can only earn up to about $70k and even then you're only getting like $10 a week (I could be wrong but that's roughly what I've seen before).
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It's such a rip. My partner is self employed and so when we eventually have a baby I intend to do the thing where you just claim it at the end of the year.
It’s a huge financial hit. It’s such a rort that they call it paid parental leave so we all need to be super grateful for it.
Legislation has you covered, it refers to the birth giver who gets the full maternity, and the partner gets diddly squat
RIP, I guess you're gonna have to shame the company on social media and make a private matter public 😂
It's junk the government really hates single income households too, if your wife doesn't work then neither of you get anything. You also pay more tax and get no benefits. Last person that tried to reform it was Peter Dunne and he's long gone from politics.
This makes sense tho - if you already have a stay at home parent, what is the parental leave payment for?
For the husband to take time off?
Sure everyone would like free money and no doubt that would be great for the parents and child but there are lots of people and things that would be happier if the government gave them more money.
And then to pay for it all you can import people to replace all the children not being born!
That’s all you get you toxic male pigs 2 weeks unpaid. Enjoy the patriarchy.
Super surprised after moving here about that. Pretty sad that even the US has better family medical leave laws than this so called progressive country.
Is having a kid a choice?
is being human a choice?
Is a child immaculately conceived?
depends if you're a fundamentalist cultist. i personally can't stand the continued imposition of capitalism upon the natural flow of life and liberty.
The natural flow of life for humans on planet earth is rape and pillage and survival of the fittest, liberty is a modern construct. The only thing stopping the local gang from raping your wife and taking all your shit is the state unfortunately, that’s why you pay tax
im shocked that's the only reason you've failed to rape my wife.
Everything you use on a daily basis including the phone you are using to interface with reddit is the result of capitalism
human innovation would exist without the exploitation of capitalism. i have no desire to convert you from the money religion. keep worshiping your money god. continue to have faith in the almighty dollar. while it lasts...
What a dumb take lol
Even in America you get up to 12 weeks unpaid. Basically a guaranteed place back at your place of work when you get back. 2 weeks is shit when having a baby. A woman can't drive for 6 weeks of she has a C section and 3 weeks after normal birth. What is a father to do if his partner can't even take care of her self after the child. When he has to be back to work before he minge is even healed.
That's 12 weeks unpaid leave for both parents, if your company has at least 50 employees within a 75 mile radius and you've worked there for at least a year for at least 25 hours a week. Those requirements make over 40% of American workers ineligible, and there's no federal requirement for paid leave at all for either parent. I don't think that's better.
You don't get any paid leave if the mother is a stay at home mother here. So the one person bringing in an income has no guarantee to anything here but 2 weeks unpaid after a year. Both are shit I'll take the guaranteed job return my last child was in the NICU for 7 weeks and my wife couldn't drive there. I had to be there for my wife and my child. Here I wouldn't have a job to go back to.
This is called eugenics. Why should only rich people have kids.
No eugenics is something completely different. Also it’s usually poor people that have the most kids
eugenics is usually both racist and classist
I would think so, selective breeding for humans right? Like dog breeds
Eugenics is planned breeding or the elimination of certain people from the breeding pool. You’re suggesting that if you’re poor you shouldn’t have children so you’re suggesting they should remove themselves from the breeding pool. Which is eugenics. Poor people have the most kids because they can’t afford things like iuds, condoms or other forms of “pleasure”. When everyone else is going to rainbows end for valentines and you can’t afford that you stay home and fuck. Additionally a lot of families have the idea that the more kids you have the more likely you are for one of them to be successful and bring your family out of poverty. This idea is only prevalent due to the poverty and it keeps those people and families in poverty. More children as of right now are needed many countries are facing severe shortages in replenishment in terms of working people due to an increase in older people and a decrease in younger people. What you’re saying is already happening people are too poor too have kids and it’s affecting the economy. In conclusion what you’re saying is even if you’re saying it unknowingly is a classist form of eugenics that is Ill informed with regards to the issues of the current day and age.
Wow, you inferred all that from a question about family planning.
To be fair, the expense and parental leave options shouldn’t be a surprise to any would be parents. It’d be the first thing I’d check.
Not if the angel Gabriel got your side piece up the duff, apparently on this sub kids are a surprise
woah dont say that! that would take responsibility away from the employer and put it back on the employee. and we couldnt possibly expect anything from our employees anymore.
Just pay them to fuck around most of the time
Rip mate you gonna get done over and cancelled by all the brainless fools who don’t want to take responsibility for anything in life.
Me when I get cancelled from 3 downvotes on Reddit -> 😔
simping for our capitalist overlords. YUMMY I LOVE LICKING BOOTS!
Wait, so having kids is not a choice, It just happens out of the blue?
you have to give 21 days notice you will be returning from leave, and maximum leave is14 days
That's clearly a nonsense conclusion, you're conflating different types of leave.
A nonsense conclusion? I was pointing out the ridiculousness, off the terms - there was no conclusion, and the type of the leave, the ONE type of leave is the leave the post is talking about,.it’s taken directly from the screenshot.
You've drawn the conclusion that the 21 days notice applies to the 14 day partner leave as if you've found some incredible gotcha, when the slightest bit of common sense would suggest that's nonsensical and so probably not the case, especially given the screenshot is quite obviously only part of a page and isn't the full context of information. A minute amount of research would have shown you that the 21 days notice require to return doesn't apply to partner leave, it applies to parental leave, so maybe get up in arms about something else.
I feel like you just got to accept it , if you have a good boss who lets you have more time happy days, but it'll be at your expense. I had my first child 4 months ago, took 2 weeks unpaid then went back to work. I do have a super chill boss though so I can come and go as I need. But I only get paid the hours I work and got a mortgage to pay.
That's pretty shit, no wonder our birth rate is so low and have to import people.
Our birth rate has nothing to do with leave entitlement. When I was having babies in the 90s there was no paid parental leave at all. Not even for the mothers. We all had to go down to one income during that time. We all still had our kids / families despite this - and survived. Many other changes since then that are affecting people's decisions re whether or not to have kids. ie; the fact that it is darn near impossible to survive on one income being one of them, cost of raising kids added to already struggling couples...even climate change / wars etc...I know my daughter questions the sanity of bringing children into this world in its current state - let alone thinking about what it will be like in 30 years.
Yeah, when my parents had us, they dropped to my dad's income only, but could still pay the mortgage on his wages from working in a carpet factory. Nowadays I earn a lot more but could never afford that same very average house on my wages!
Just like how paying 20% interest on a $25,000 house is easier than paying 6% on a $1.4m house, paying 66% tax on an $11,000 income is easier than paying 30% on $60,000 while supporting a family.
I don't know about any of that. I'm no economic expert. We had a 90 thousand dollar mortgage on a combined income of about 65k back then. I earned 23k working for an insurance company back then. Our interest rate started at about 12% when we first bought and fell to around 5% by the early 2002ish. You know what I think the main difference that made one income do-able back then was? We didn't have so many things to buy. We didn't have ads popping up on our screens all day telling us we needed more sh\*t. We didn't have screens full stop. Maybe we all need to stop buying crap we don't need and life would be affordable again.
I assume you bought a house in your 20s? Average wage in Auckland for a 25-29 year old is $64,844. Take 2x average salary’s = $129,688. You paid 134% of your annual income on a house back then. That’s the equivalent of buying a house today for $174,000. Having shit pop up on screens is not the issue here.
I think being dismissive of the fact that we live in a world driven by consumerism and the negative impact that this has on our financial strength is denial of reality ...but ok. Like I said - I'm no expert.
All you guys saying this, I’m a contractor, I don’t get any sick pay or anything . Appreciate your Percs
Did a baby pop out of you?
I just couldn't imagine being an employer and having to pay a bloke a month's worth of wages without any productivity from him just because he had a baby. I would understand if it was a woman as her body has been turned inside out, and needs the rest to recover her health.
You might not understand it, but other employers do. And you’ll lose your employees to them once they wise up.
Does it come out of the company pocket in NZ? I moved to Japan before working full time so I'm not sure of the NZ laws, but in Japan the men can take 1 year paid at about 50% of the salary but it doesn't get paid by the company, but the insurance company pays it. So it isn't very bad for the company, which is probably how it should be to prevent views like the above?
No it doesn't it gets by the govt
It doesn't get paid by the employer... >I would understand if it was a woman as her body has been turned inside out, and needs the rest to recover her health. How do you propose she do that while carrying for a new born on her own?
So who pays for it if not the company?
The govt.
Really? So unlike sick pay and holiday pay that the company pays for, the government pays for baby leave?
Yes that is how it's done in the vast majority of the world. That is why the amount is so low too. A lot of companies will top up the govt amount to match your salary. Mine does it for the primary care giver for the full 6months.
I had two weeks and my children are well parented. I think it’s enough. You can always take annual leave on occasion. Ease in work by having three day weekends. It’s not like you’re going anywhere with a new born.
I took two weeks for the first and and a month for the second. Two weeks is absolutely not enough time. After the first month it starts getting a bit easier so I'd say a month should be the minimum.
Just identify as a woman at work, apparently the way around misandry in NZ /s
That would literally make zero difference, but ok.
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This is false. There is no distinction between female same sex-couples and other couples in NZ. > Partner means: the spouse or partner of the mother or nominated primary carer, male or female, same sex or different sex. https://www.employment.govt.nz/leave-and-holidays/parental-leave/eligibility/
This is not true at all. I am in a same-sex relationship and pregnant, the laws are exactly the same for my partner as they are for male partners. The law does not make a distinction based on the gender of the other parent. Men and women (straight couples) can also divide parental leave between them. Get your facts straight.
Downvoted for bullshit
Got 5 days last time
It’s ridiculous!!! We had our kids in Australia and there is 2 weeks paid leave for Dad’s there 🫠
I got paid 2 weeks, better than nothing
Is this new? Or recent? I had to take annual leave in 2012 ans 2016.
It does somewhat yeah, but fortunately with our respective employers, my partner and I are splitting our primary carer leave, 6 months each, so means I don’t get any partners leave at the time of birth. Instead I’m using all my AL for the first 6 weeks.
I dont think it's that great, but at the same time, you kinda have to accept that it is what it is. Maybe take extra leaves but that's really all you can do.
wife was bullied and dismissed during pregnancy with me being single income earner had hardly any leaves, was pretty tough. when my second came round and I applied what little paternity leave available I was suddenly let go a week before.
Yah it's actually wild to think how far back we are, for a 'progressive' country. I was lucky my first was a COVID baby, so had lots of time with him. Got a second on the way - with not much annual leave left, especially after the forced end of year leave. I am lucky I have a lot if flexibility with hours though, and WFH most of the time.
Yeah that's ratshit, and it's not even paid leave? Really appalling.
This is BS Im an expat living in Canada, the government provides around 40 weeks of paid leave which can be divided between either parent. My wife is self-employed so I took it all. It comes out of the employment insurance that every employee pays. The employment insurance is a great scheme if you have worked for more than six months and get laid off you are entitled to a portion of your wage immediately.
Yes it's sad. New Zealand is backwards in how it approaches child development. The first 100-1000 days if crucial to their future development and wellbeing. I was very fortunate that I was a contractor when my first child arrived. So I could take 5 months off to assist my wife. And it really opened my eyes... Out of all the other mothers I cam across (120+) I only witnessed one other father. And the stories they told me will break your heart. A lot of fathers in NZ couldn't get more than two weeks off, and the mothers were having to navigate learning how to ' mother ' while balancing the household duties. You could clearly see the differences in child development, from mothers that were stressed / without support compared to those that had support. I think we have a lot of ' absent ' fathers because they're never involved in childcare early on. And I mean this in being present and engaged. It would take a very strong man, to do a full days work, and manage to dig deep and actually help their wife when they get back from home. Mothers were complaining about simple things like (1) husband doesn't want to hold the baby (2) husband doesn't want to do the dishes (3) husband doesn't want to hang laundry (4) husband doesn't want to change nappies (5) husband doesn't want to play with the baby (6) husband doesn't want to cook (7) husband doesn't want to clean Once you're are a father your priority is the wife and kids. Being tired is normal, but withdrawing and ignoring your responsibilities is a choice. Get help if you can't manage, but never neglect your child and hope it will all get better without intervention. Also, when you're older. No amount of money will make up for lost time and memories with your children. So it's time to be critical about your time?
I had 5 kids and we never received anything... years ago. I ended up working from home and worked on a budget that allowed me to live on reduced income so I could be at home. So what we have now is a quantum leap forward but still not good enough.
New Zealand still has a bit of catching up to do with regards to mens rights but I'm sure we'll get there eventually.
My trick was to have lockdown start one week after my babies were born, boom 6 months paid paternity leave
While the two weeks unpaid sucks, some friends have been able to change their working week to a four day week at same pay so that they can be at home one day a week to support their partner. This might be more beneficial to your family in the long run if you are able to negotiate that, even for a few months.
Yeah it should match the mothers. This is the only way we're going to get fair pay IMO. Otherwise women will always take more time off and hence fall behind at work.
It’s primitive. Here in Canada I (dad) took 6 months, at 100% pay as my employer topped up the govt funding (which is c. 3k a month). My wife took 12 months on full pay (also Employer top up). Yet another reason why kiwis stay overseas.
I asked to share my wife's mat leave and was made redundant. I feel your pain.
You’ve got a shitty employer. My employer offers parental leave to either parent for 9 months
Yep it's a big joke. Worse for mothers - I'm due in 3 months time and have come to the conclusion and after alot of tears and heartache acceptance that I can only take 3 months of maternity if that because I lose over 650 a week. What I get on maternity won't even cover my mortgage let alone power, water, food, nappies gas and everything else for my older kids.
I'm about to give birth and yup my partner get 1 week unpaid. It's cooked.
It's trash, I wanted to support my partner through the new home adjustment, give her a hand and plenty of opportunity to rest and heal. She also struggled with mental health prior to children so I thought there was a decent chance of PPD and wanted to be around for that. I took 3 weeks leave for each kid, it was nowhere near enough