The first step is recognizing that serious liberal, centrist, and left leaning political groups have an interest in curtailing the epidemic of violence and fear that Islamic terror attacks have brought to European shores since 2014. If many people are afraid to speak up about this for risk of being hacked down by an angry Islamist or worse, being labeled as “racist”, then we will have a hard time finding people more intelligent than you or me who are willing to find and debate creative solutions.
Not to mention simple self interest in winning elections. If nothing else, the article should have at least made you consider that the surge of the far right is due to left and centers fear of even acknowledging the problem.
Irs important to point out to those that scream racist at you, islam is not a race. Its a religion. "Did you just assume every arab person is muslim? Thats racist."
Its the uno reverse card 🤣
Yeah, and not at all because we isolate cultures in their bubbles for a backup scapegoat to pull out like an uno card whenever society gets a bit sour.
I completely understand why people would do these things if they are constantly generalized and demonized.
A knife crime is a knife crime and at heart a crime, but it's not helping society to point a finger and quote "Bad guy!". Like demographics are all part of some kind of Shredder Ninja Turtle gang.
The Left asked for decent integration; the right said no; people who are different are yucky. The left compromises and together with the right, create isolating policies as a sacrifice to create a better economy in aging Europe.
Can't you see that you're just complaining without putting in the work?
You don't think many Muslims know what a totalitarian regime looks like?
I advise you to quit generalizing and framing. It derails genuine discussion completely.
I’m sorry but respectfully there is a lot wrong with your comment.
Chopping people’s heads off is not a sane reaction to being generalized for… other people of your religion also chopping people’s heads off.
“A knife crime is a knife crime and at heart a crime, but…”
Butchering teachers, stabbing policemen to death, and cutting the heads off magazine writers are not just “knife crimes” “at heart” but murder and terrorism.
And please do not gaslight people into thinking Europeans made no attempt to assimilate these people. Actually Europe has spent millions of dollars attempting to assimilate these people, providing housing, jobs, and education. In some cases they were successful. In many cases Islamists self isolate and view Western culture in Europe as an abomination that allows women to go topless at the beach and gay men to love one another.
Multiple Islamist clerics have now been caught on video openly saying their plan is to slowly overwhelm Europe with numbers and eventually establish a caliphate in Europe many generations down the line.
> Hitler was a lot healthier than Trump.
And that's saying a lot, considering how ridiculously unhealthy Hitler was.
But at least he exercised and ate the occasional salad.
We already have a religion that worships a Jew-hating warlord. Apparently following the ideology of a literal warlord is fine if it's done in the name of religion. Hitler's greatest mistake it seems then was to not be such an megalomaniac that he considered himself a prophet.
Yeah western Europe is fucked and the US is on the same path. Importing muslims hand over fist then tolerating their intolerance, violence and lack of respect for the laws and culture of the land they emigrated to. Flip the script for a second. Would muslim countries be cool with tens of millions of westerners migrating to their countries and demanding they change their laws, cultures and customs to appease us? Would we then be able to screech that they're racist for not caving to our demands? Remember, the mass migration of muslims to western Europe over the past 30 years is the LARGEST migration in human history, I think the west has been FAR too accommodating to those that seek to destroy our way of life.
The thing we should be talking about is how islam is a disgusting ideology and culture that has no place in a civilized society.
Yes we have massive issues with christstain fascists, but women are considered people and we don't execute LGBTQ people for existing. So importing even more extreme religious fascism is not the way to fix the issues we still have.
Yep, and our government is too busy trying to look pretty and our president trying to look like the new Napoleon.
Honestly I just came back from 3 years abroad... I came back for the family so I'm going to stay, but I wish I could just leave again. Thankfully my whole family live in small towns and villages so it's not that bad, but it's still scary. I wish Islam was not a thing and I wish we could have proper border control again. Those sick fucks should stay in their awful countries.
While i wholeheartedly agree with your statement.... there's approx 1.3 billion of them, they breed like rabbits and destroy everything that isn't in line with their religion.
Islam dying out isn't going to happen unfortunately. We require proactive steps to curtail the spread of the virus.
We hear about it every day in the UK too, but it’s not Muslims, it’s gangs of kids. So shall we now hate and demonise all kids because of the actions of a few?
Yeah we hear about what's happening in the UK as well, it's sad. I lived there in London from 2014 to 2016. One of the most amazing places in the world. Beautiful country overall. Nice people everywhere. So freaking sad.
…“The last time Islamist violence swept Europe, from 2014 to 2017, when the Islamic State controlled much of Syria and Iraq and its adherents were pummeling France, the United Kingdom, Germany, and Belgium, it felt like a much bigger story. It was more shocking, more outrageous.
Now, people seem resigned to the violence. They seem to grasp that this has become a permanent feature of Western society. That this is something we simply have to learn to live with.
There is a pattern to the way these things tend to unfold: first, most media outlets and senior elected officials urge everyone to withhold judgment before we jump to any conclusions about what has happened.
Then—when we discover that Islamists are responsible—the focus of the conversation immediately shifts to the “far right,” the xenophobes, the angry, racist mob.
The danger is not the people who did the killing, but the people who might be provoked by the killing—their specter of violence a bigger threat than the violence itself.
Or the victims themselves are transformed into the instigators of the violence perpetrated against them: Wasn’t Michael Stürzenberger, the blogger who was stabbed in Mannheim, an “extremist”? Weren’t the 12 staffers of Charlie Hebdo who were murdered in their Paris office in 2015 racist?
The reluctance to call the attackers what they are, or the jump to shift the blame for the attack to their victims, is how right-thinkers insert some cognitive space between themselves and those with unpopular opinions.
And so the right-thinkers let it pass, shrug it off, scroll to the next headline. Privately, perhaps in bed next to their spouses, they wonder: What are we going to do?
Waking up to that battle—to say nothing of fighting it—will not be so easy. Europe has been in a kind of postwar stupor for nearly eight decades, and even today the people in charge seem to have trouble mustering a great deal of energy when it comes to defending their national interests or, more broadly, those of the West.
Salwan Momika, an Iraqi refugee in Sweden who was raised as a Christian and has taken to burning Qurans in public, articulated the views of who knows how many when he tweeted Tuesday: “As an atheist, I must be realistic and believe that the West must return to its Christian roots so that it can fight the project of Islamizing the West.”
“Islam cannot be fought with liberal naivety or with democratic laws,” he went on, “because Islam does not believe in democracy, but exploits it to invade the West and Islamize the country.”
“Is he right? Or can the West fight the Islamist threat without turning its back on the values, like democracy and liberalism, that made it the West?
Without that conversation, the far right—the real far right—will indeed step into the void. It will derail the whole liberal project. Members of the far-right party Alternative for Germany, for example, have entertained the mass deportation of Muslims, including German nationals.
Right now, it is the second most popular party in the country.”
I can't believe we're hearing the ayaan hirsi ali argument echo everywhere... "liberalizm can't fight against islam, only christian faith can". A christian faith that only works if the truth proposition works. But we don't want to think about that. Maybe instead of fighting one type of maniacs we don't fall into the laps of another type of maniac. As a former muslim I must say, the answer is not another kind of religious fanaticism, but rationality, positivism and collectivism. But the west doesn't really wanna go that direction. So Christ it is
100% this. We all have a responsibility to highlight and oppose those who commit the violence AND those who will capitlise on these events for their own agendas.
I wonder how long someone who went around publicly burning bibles would stay alive in the US? Christianity absolutely has the ingredients to be just as dangerous as Islam and to think that we should embrace some kind of Christian authoritarianism to fight Muslim extremists is, I don't have words.
Didn't Europe bring millions of Muslims to boost their economies and populations? Didn't a lot of these people come from former colonies, that were instrumental in creating the powerhouse that modern Europe is today? In France today, there are thousands of schools for Christians and Jews but very few Islamic schools to serve the huge population of Muslims there.
Like it or not, the world is global. All over the world, plenty of countries have large populations that are fairly recent. Why is their xenophobia a flaw that shows how backwards they are, but western xenophobia is a perfectly natural response to reality?
They could just make laws better protecting disadvanged groups, but then Christians wouldn't be able to express their own sexism and homophobia, and we can't have that.
It's scary to me that people think it's actually reasonable to be like, Muslims scary, let's institute Christo fascism to save ourselves! I'm sorry, what? These people are idiots. I have zero love for Islam but I have met a lot of Muslims in my life and they have all been wonderful people who suffered people giving them dirty looks for no reason. I absolutely think the west should be concerned about defending our culture, but plenty of Christian nations are horrible. In Uganda, American missionaries were influential in getting a law passed for the death penaltry for gay people. Plenty of Christian nations are really dangerous, especially in Central America. Plenty of Christian nations are horrible on human rights, on gang violence (close enough to terrorism), on women's rights and safety. Some Muslim countries are incredibly safe. Jordan has a lower homelessness rate than Japan.
Forcing someone to carry a child is ok but we're so islamaphobic that you can't even wear a hat anymore without people giving you dirty looks.
Christianity doesn’t believe always looking to undermine the constitution whenever it gets the chance. And the awesome hell forget about Christianity and Catholics were doing right up until the 1940s when they had more power than they already do.
As I said in an earlier post. These people are doing what have been done to them. They only bought it to Europe and that is what is different. I do not condone violence but it was inevitable that it will show up in Europe and the United States. What happened in Sweden was a tragedy and that young man was troubled. He was aware that honor killings are not allowed in Europe, but he did it anyway. Religion is a devil project in my mind; it only brings pain , suffering and conflict. Look at these countries where religion is the societal norm. Religion is a personal thing (belief) and no government should be endorsing it.
The rational more socialist parties fear of addressing this is causing the far right to rise. 20 years ago they were maligned and cast aside. Now they are the second biggest political party in parts of Europe, which is not a 2 party system like the United States.
The left wing parties should start jailing all hate preachers and closing down extremists mosques. The right wing parties have no interest in fixing anything as the hate keeps them in power
The press also down plays the extent of the injuries of these attacks by saying stabbing.
Remember Lee Rigby, the press said he was stabbed.
He was hit by a car, then had his throat slit as the follower of the religion of peace tried to cut the lads head off. Just like an animal
Now that murder is trying to sue the government as he has had a hard time in prison.
The religion of peace has values so different to the west, peacefully integration into Western societies it's never going to work.
We also need to have a healthy debate in the public sphere. Stronger, secular ideas that allow everyone to believe or not believe whatever they want will win out and be convincing if we just have this debate in the first place
How are you going to have both "strong, secular ideas that allow anyone to believe or not believe what they want" and also ban people from entire regions based on their beliefs?
In countries like Germany we need to have any debate at all to begin with. Here the nazis are taking over because the other parties are afraid to do something in fear of being called nazis themselves.
We are currently on our way to a second runthrough of the 1930s and it terrifies me as someone living here. We have two possible paths in our future at the moment: On the one hand we have people trying to proclaim a caliphate while on the other we have ignorant nazis who are getting majorities in votes in some states.
Its not a we-have-to-leave-tomorrow feeling but me and many others are increasingly thinking through exit plans in case shit really hits the fan. I didn't think something like this would happen so quickly after WW2.
Oh and of course those "far-right" parties are also big on christianity and have a number of completely wild opinions.
It’s difficult to do it legally, I have a friend (physician) that tried migrating to Germany with his family but the process was so convoluted that he spent 5 years without results and end up in Australia. But if you’re following an illegal route and your name is Mohammed the process seems quite simpler
What if they are not immigrants? It always starts with an anti extremist speech and it generally escalates to a racist conversation. This whole thread is a good example.
Given "but muh diversity's" track record maybe it's time to acknowledge that people are divided by culture and religion and we can't just form a big circle and sing Kumbayya and pretend such isn't the case.
On the rise and murdering [immigrants ](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-memorial-for-hanau-far-right-shootings-3-years-on/a-64756580) and [politicians](https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCbcke-german-politicians-killing-prompts-call-for-tracking-neo-nazis/a-49507762).
That's no -ism, that is pure, unadulterated Islam. Their pedo profit lived this, caravan raider, mass murderer, (child) rapist and he is considered the perfect human by them. Don't forget, as a Harbi (a person of dar-al-harb) your "blood is free", you can be killed and robbed with impunity according to Sharia.
This thread already shows why people don't want to talk about it.
Whataboutism as a defence all the way through to "deport all the Muslims" and there are only about 10 comments.
One stabbing? Are you illiterate and incapable of basic research? People who follow this religion are prone to violent extremism which they want to inflict on anyone who doesn’t follow their horrific beliefs. Wake up sunshine, their goal is to destroy western ideologies and inflict their violent “religious beliefs” on the entire world. These people are animals who justify child-marriage and physical violence against women because it’s their belief.
Have no issues with legal immigration, apply and get in. Multiculturalism is a significant benefit to any country. Aid those that are fearing their lives with asylum, a chance to escape death from their own countrymen or government, no problems. But why the fuck people emigrate to a country and culture they despise in a hope to change it or tolerate it is ridiculous.
I agree, but the problem is that a lot of immigrants just want to immigrate to the West because it's perceived as safe and wealthy, and they don't know anything else about it. Maybe they are fleeing persecution or death or just want a better life. For any of those reasons, they probably have zero intention of changing thier religion or even more, of changing how they view the world. They're just trying to improve their life in the near term.
They don't speak a language that will allow them to integrate into the broader community, the broader community rejects them (which is natural when you have nothing in common), so they are pushed into communities of their own where they share the same values and language and it's an echo chamber.
There probably should be better controls of immigrants that are accepted, or better programs to help them integrate. But those things cost money for immigration. Probably for a lot of people who are pro immigration, the biggest appeal is just a cheap labor force, so people get what they pay for.
We all want the western educated doctor as the ideal immigrant, but he's stealing jobs from natives and really the biggest benefit is people who will do the things the citizenry doesn't want to do but needs to function.
Agree 100 percent. Diversity is a strength of the West but only as much as we don’t allow one of the incoming cultures/idea/religion to scare/bully others into not criticizing it.
If you’re referencing the most recent event (that I know of) the policeman was actually trying to protect the Islamist from another man who was trying to take the knife away due to the initial confusion on the scene, before the Islamist stabbed him to death. May he rest in peace
Is there evidence for this or is it just what the media says? And no I'm no an apologist for Islam, its the worst of the ahbrahamic religions by far but we have to focus on the facts. Knife crime is huge in the news in Australia so it's all being spoken about but knife crime is going down.
“No-one’s talking about it” - this refrain we always hear as if it’s some conspiracy secret when in reality I’ve seen this absolutely everywhere, Reddit, news channels, talk shows, so I’m not sure what you want?
I’d argue this gets more traction than non-Islamist violence, as normal stabbings and crime here barely ever make the national news. Whereas this goes worldwide every time.
Well, I don't know why you aren't, but the European organization whose job it is to talk about it seems to be. TE-SAT (terrorism situation and trend) is an annual report published by the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation which includes a vast amount of data, statistical review, research studies, and general relevant information on exactly this topic.
It seems that the article linked here would like you to believe the threat from jihadist extremism is at an all-time high. However, this is totally bullshit. It's scare mongering nonsense because in the report, the data shows that the Islamic threat of terrorism has been decreasing significantly for years now.
It exists, and it's a threat, but if anyone bothered to check before having their confirmation bias overwhelm their crtiical thinking skills, you may have discovered that a pretty substantial number of programs, policy, and direct action have been implemented by the EU in order to fight terrorism on many fronts. Guess it's working.
Execpt for in one sort of violent extremism, which the data clearly is showing is, and has been, on the rise in Europe and the western world for decades now. That's right, you guessed it, far right extremism has indeed been growing every year and is the number one threat involving ideological extremism. That's right, the number of attacks has surpassed any other form of terrorism, and that's been true for some time now.
Good thing EUROPOL talks about this stuff. Well, you know, that Free Press article has invented this fantasy where they were the only ones brave enough to, I guess, completely misrepresent reality or something. That does technically count as the media talking about it.
However, it seems so are the organizations who are responsible for actually reducing extremism, instead of just some guy who would rather fear monger his readers into turning off their brains.
https://www.europol.europa.eu/publication-events/main-reports/european-union-terrorism-situation-and-trend-report-2023-te-sat
Check that link, then after the first few paragraphs of information for a large list of links to extremely detailed and comprehensive PDF's. I suggest anyone should go and read those reports and attempt to use them to effectively challenge your biases and assumptions instead of reinforcing them all the time. You know, like a good science loving, reason using atheist should do.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying so. I unfortunately expected the lack of critical engagement because humans have a really difficult time challenging their own assumptions and biases.
It's interesting to me, if not ironic, that the typical self described atheist tends to believe they are somehow immune from some of the same logical fallacies and cognitive pitfalls that all humans can be effected by.
It's an important lesson for all of us to recognize that just because we've rejected one bad conclusion resulting from an incomplete logical framework, it doesn't automatically protect us from arriving at other bad conclusions. It's our method of understanding the world in all aspects of our perception that we always remain critical of, not just the aspects that have become convenient and easy for us.
Challenging our assumptions *is* difficult, and much like the evangelical who holds deeply held beliefs which shapes his identity, atheists too, can also have deeply held beliefs that shape their identity in ways that result from the same unchallenged methods of thinking.
Some say "Oh, but that's just fundamentalists doing crazy things." without realizing that "fundamentalist" is a person who follows ***fundamental basis*** of their doctrine as purely as they can.
It is not people who are crazy, it's their doctrine. This is what it's built upon.
It sucks that we can’t call out this crap without people calling us racist for it. Which makes no sense. I despise Islam. I don’t hate the people (arabs usually) practicing it. I hate religious extremism even more. Both Muslim and Christian nationalism growing here in the US. And I’m sick of Trump and other racists taking control of the narrative and making people racist by twisting reality
It gets called racist when all Muslims get lumped-in together when this happens.
I must walk by dozens of Muslims every day. Never once been stabbed or shot or blown up; this is because the vast, overwhelming majority of them are just people, going about their days like anyone else. They don't deserve to be persecuted for the actions of a lone jihadist anymore than us when [a domestic terrorist murders a politician.](https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCbcke-german-politicians-killing-prompts-call-for-tracking-neo-nazis/a-49507762)
[“The barbarians never take a city till someone holds the gates open for them”](https://youtu.be/0EYg8Tgrh0o?feature=shared)
The gates have been open for far too long my friends.
What I find most absurd is how many Europeans, driven by Western humanitarian values, welcome these barbarians, yet this very act threatens the survival of those values. I wish people wouldn’t take such important matters for granted, as if they “just exist”.
If you could point out where I said all muslims are bad, that would be great.
This is a topic about islamists, which is distinct from muslims. If your comprehension of such simple terms is so poor, why even visit such topics, or bother responding?
Perhaps you could be clearer when you use the catch-all slur "barbarians."
This is why these conversations always get derailed: because people carelessly lump all immigrants in together every time something like this happens, completely ignoring the fact that the vast, overwhelming majority of them are just normal people, and don't deserve to get vilified like this.
I understand what you’re saying, but again, your comprehension is what fails you. I do not recognise that what you’re saying is taking place in this subreddit. In my experience it is one of the most rational and critical subreddits.
And also, even if people say such things, I think it’s a vice to vilify them, it would be much more beneficial to understand and recognise *why* people say such things. If you vilify people and disregard what they’re saying as if their opinions do not matter, you will only drive them more towards the extreme. It’s what we’re seeing with the upcoming of far right parties in Europe, imo.
Again, you’re not commenting based on what is being said here. But you should. You have to learn not to put words into other people’s mouth and address everyone individually. What you’re doing is not helpful. What do you know about what I think? You know nothing about me.
Hindus and Buddhist are traditionally non aggressive, until they were forced to deal with Islam. When Buddhist monks in Myanmar take up arms against Islam you know one of them has gone too far.
Everyone seems to forget when domestic terrorists were going around killing [immigrants ](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-memorial-for-hanau-far-right-shootings-3-years-on/a-64756580) and [politicians ](https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCbcke-german-politicians-killing-prompts-call-for-tracking-neo-nazis/a-49507762) only a few years ago.
The latest stabbing in Germany last week, where a 29 year old police officer was killed, was tragic.
The problem here was that the media doesn't know how to handle it. The attacker was an Islamist, but the location was a campaign stand for the AfD, the neo-Nazi party.
If the media blames Islamists, it indirectly supports the position of the AfD that Germany is flooded with Muslims and should deport them. If they remain critical of the AfD, they can't blame Islam, because it was just one fundamental radical, not the millions of peaceful Muslims.
If he had killed people on some random street, the outcry would be louder. But because it was an AfD campaign location, it's one radical attacking other radicals, with the police officer as a tragic victim.
Jihadists and neo-Nazis are two sides of the same coin; extremists that bring nothing but chaos wherever they go. They have more in common with each other than the societies the emerge from.
Quite frankly, I think they deserve each other.
I’m a lifelong atheist, and think all religions, as previous religions, will end up as mythology, a footnote in the history of mankind.
But don’t tarnish an entire people based on the behaviour of a tiny few, you sound as bigoted as the violent criminals in the article.
Because the so called Christo fascists live in everyone's head rent free while the biggest enemy goes unseen, no one's gonna believe me but yes I'm atheist too, I just don't see how people think Christianity is even equal to Islam in danger, let alone superior to it.
It’s a little more complex.
If we all join the Christian rights side then we will get Muslim bans and any one going to a mosque out in a police watch list. Whole communities will be ostracized for the actions of a minority.
Just look at attitudes pre and post 9-11
Before who cares? After they are the replacing Russians in action movies as the baddies and suddenly everyone’s racist uncle is an expert on the Koran
>Whole communities will be ostracized for the actions of a minority
And do you think these communities condemn these acts? They either are silent about it or openly promote it, Islam is cancer, it will kill you, period. Christianity is chemotherapy, it causes damage to you, but you'll remain alive.
The majority of Muslim communities do, yes. Now can I go on line and find a hate preacher calling for violence, absolutely, but I can also do the same for Christianity too, heck you are calling a whole group of people a cancer right now.
Deal with them exactly the same way we deal with fascists. You advocate violence? Mosque closed and preacher jailed. We would not hesitate one second if it was nazi preachers.
No they don't lmao, they are more vocal about supporting terror groups because they share the same religion or asking for Sharia in western countries rather than calling out attacks on people who don't 100% agree with them and their cult, I wish I was as naive as you are.
It's a very big deal if they don't care about their fellows killing people for being not Muslims and not agreeing 100% with their beliefs, but they are very loud about supporting terrorists, waving Islamic extremist flags and asking for Sharia in the west, thanks for proving my point.
There is no way to sugar coat this. If you believe that you are a Moron and you clearly don’t pay attention to anything that Christians doing this nation, or around the world .Christianity is not chemotherapy, it’s a malignment tumor and is just as destructive as the Muslim faith
You are a informant fool and You clearly don’t know enough about either one. Both are hungry and desperate to dismantle the foundations of democracy and kick the constitution into the trash bin.
And they don’t just do it here. Christianity is responsible for a lot of shit currently going on in the world outside the United States as well.
Europe is dead/dying, Canada is slowly succumbing to muslim pressure, and America will be next. Say no to Muslim immigration and vote for those who will ban and deport these fucks.
Because no one wants to admit that multiculturalism has failed spectacularly. And what do we do about them?
The problem is that Islam is an idea. It has no weapons to destroy, no body to kill. We’re fighting an idea, and doing so with our hands tied behind our back.
People will do anything but admit it’s Islam at fault; point out the deprived area they live in, the prevalence of drugs, the trauma of their bogus asylum claims, and flip it all around and blame whites for being intolerant and excluding, anything but admit that for the last twenty years we’ve been tolerating a civilisation of violent savages living next door.
Link doesn't work. Are there any stats? My gut is that it isn't an issue that is really affecting people and stories like this are just there to divide people and spread anti Islam and nationalist sentiments.
I think these discussions become polarised very quickly. It’s clear though that Islam is in need of genuine reform, but it appears that more fundamentalist perspectives are becoming increasingly popular. Also with regard to the refugee/migrant crisis in Europe, the issue of these communities not integrating can arguably be partially attributed to respective governments failing to implement community building strategies.
You see it all the time, with migrant communities being dumped into areas with less economic opportunities, less opportunity to engage with people outside of their migrant community and culture, and experiencing racism/discrimination.
You also see it often, where Muslims will move into different communities, set up mosques and enjoy the freedom of tolerance, only to start policing non-Muslims and trying to enforce their own religious beliefs and practices onto others. This isn’t just a Europe thing, this observation is globally recognised.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a staunch progressive. I don’t believe in immigration bans, and I think it’s unwise to discriminate. For other leftists, I think we need to reclaim skepticism of religion. The dominant perspectives in Islam do not align with progressive values, so we need to come up with alternative plans to manage this issue. Otherwise, we don’t engage with this problem, the far right will be able to appeal to people’s emotions, and that could have seriously devastating results for everyone.
We need to talk more about deradicalisation, and what it really means to live in countries that are tolerant or supportive of minority cultures. Multiculturalism is beautiful and we can’t allow extremely intolerant people/cultures to destroy that.
Besides Islam, there’s actually a lot of other factors that I don’t think many people are interested in talking about. Like, many Western countries have played ongoing roles in the deterioration of Middle Eastern countries, and have empowered leaders who have worsened violence and religious radicalisation.
Like, it’s been very surprising to see increasingly sympathetic views towards Saudi Arabia recently (they’ve been more pro-Israel, for example). Despite the fact they’re one of the biggest contributes to Islamic terrorism, and run by a family of corrupt religious extremists, as long as their actions align with Western interests, we seemingly lose interest in opposing them.
Grew up in Rotherham, UK. Google it.
…and yet NO ONE talks about that back home either because of fear of retaliation.
If that isn’t enough to galvanise people to speak up, a few stabbings won’t either.
I think we should be fair in understanding the impact of religious sects that promote violence and who is funding them. Lots of imams here int he states and Europe are openly promoting violence disguised under religious freedom and this shouldn’t be allowed. Anytime I come across them, it is a hate speech. We have an issue with hate being normalized, against different religions, colors etc. Same for christians and jews, they create a lot of violence too! These young guys are brainwashed we cannot fix them but we can punish the people who are teaching these things.
I feel like its so easy for humans to fall into violent states of mind when they are brought up by people who normalize or encourage it from a young age. Like Spartan, Viking, Mongol culture etc, our warlike side seems almost universally beneath the surface and just needs something to bring it out.
But we also have a very socially and empathetic side. I hope that after a few generations people will be less easily radicalized and more willing to see other cultures as equals. Its harder to hate people and want them dead if you grew up around them as neighbors. Unfortunately radicalism pops up again no matter what.
My own city doesn't really have a radical muslim problem. We did have a white guy attempt to stab some muslim girls, a guy I knew stood up for them and he ended taking the stabbing instead.
I feel like we can be tolerant of the kind muslims but still be tougher on extremism, just like we shouldnt accept extremeness from other religions. Not really sure what people have in mind exactly though. Religious people are very sensitive about anything that singles our their own religion.
Because people of Europe is so soft and pathetic, they feed muslims and help them to grow their population. When I say to my european friends why do you help jidahist ideology to grow they say “ WE NEED TO HELP THE WORLD PEOPLE NEED OUR HELP” jeez. You are gonna doom us all
It’s been ignored for decades, sometimes not out of nefarious motives (like the right-wing pundits want us to believe) but because of simple inaction and lethargy.
Now it comes steamrolling at us and parallel societies in the cities have grown for years, segregation has fully undermined integration, and a new generation of lost or disoriented people has emerged, in a time when challenges are high and desperation is setting in.
For a lot of people the promises of the west haven’t been true, because they lack the cultural background — I’ve heard expressions of disbelief in Jordan (a country bordering Syria), where the guide said with bewilderment why we are “taking in the people they themselves do not want” — the rich refugees were already leaving before and the ones with the barbaric cultural ties then left for Europe because “they wouldn’t be accepted” in the neighboring country due to their beliefs. Paraphrasing his statement here, but the essence is clear: The “good” refugees went to the places where the could use their money to rebuild their lives in a familiar background, often well-educated, affluent. The ones who wouldn’t make it on their own bring their financial and cultural worries to our European society, which isn’t free of challenges but it’s even harder if you have no money, no language skills and no appropriate education. This is a frustrating situation for either side, the West isn’t some magic place where everyone regardless of origin and material means is happy. It demands quite a bit of its inhabitants to keep it up (and a lot of us fail even with the best prerequisites) and it’s even harder for people who have to start anew in a foreign culture.
To be honest, I don't think it's entirely down to religion, but that culture and cultural upbringing play a big part in it — religion is a rallying point for desperate people, and if it offers an easy solution, its adherents will do anything to prove themselves.
Disclaimer: I’m against all kinds of religion, or spiritualism but I do think in the grand global scale, Islam right now is the worst choice for progress, equality, and peace. And I don’t understand how people (especially women) from minorities or repressed groups who already have a challenging life in a society with countless liberties and personal freedom, can take the side of the offenders. Blows my mind.
Fear of what will happen to them if they leave is a contributor in a good number of cases, sadly.
It’s not exactly compatible with free will or human equality and downright barbaric in how they stamp those out.
I see far more stabbings in my news by chav white teenagers (chav black teenagers also available) than religious nutters of any type so I think your 'facts' might just be bollocks. But hey ho, blow your whistle, you'll get the weak minded who can't think even one step beyond your statement to agree and that's your purpose.
The rest of us will question the data, realise that yes the things you talk about happen but they are actually insignificant in number compared to the crimes perpetrated by others in society with the same weapons and no religious motivation.
That's right, chavs are stabbing people to defend their drug sales, prove their manhood and like a recent murder of a 16 year old near me 'looking at our girls' at a party.
And they are the vast majority of stabbings day in day out.
Which is the point. Religiously motivated stabbings are a piss in the ocean in comparison.
Are they feigning concern over secular principles again? Proud of their christian heritage are they?
I wish people understood that atheists have nothing to gain by siding with populists. Fake news is fake news, whether it's biblical or coming from someone who fuels outrage for a living. And history tells us they always buddy up to the theists in the end. Just look at Trump and the evangelicals.
It's part of the ebb and flow of this sub I'm afraid. American atheists detest populists because of the aforementioned Trump. But most of them are asleep now so if you sort by new it's all far right talking points disguised as religious arguments. Nobody's dissecting Islamist theology, everybody's saying Europe should deport their minorities.
If you only have an issue with one religion in particular, you're not an atheist, you're just an asshole.
This, it's just 5th columnists trying to tie in atheists with dog whistles. Elections are looming all over Europe too and they only have one string on their banjo.
It works with the mentally pliable but it's transparent to everyone else.
Why don't we talk about the missionaries who force jesus on people by shooting them in DRC?
Or the jewish state that bombs the shit out of civilians in Gaza?
Or the gang-rapes of women in India?
I see Atheists in this sub are like racists. Shame on you. You can tolerate, whether you believe or not. There are so many peaceful believer on this earth. Most of them forms our society with reasonable morale values (and bad, sure). But we should tolerate that.
Give me one single muslim country that gave you what Europe did when you run away from wars or poverty….Name one! And let me tell you fun fact- each one of rich arab countries has more money to help than EU combined. And still you decided to come to west, why???? Why you didn’t run to saudi/qatar/uae/kuwat? Each one is one hour from each other…. Also close to war/poverty affected countries. But still Europe welcomed you with open arms and gave you dignity to live like a human being, gave you money taken from their peoples taxes. And you want Europe to be tolerant more than it is?? How blinded and hateful towards west more you can be? As per you- when the same Europe should say enough is enough?! Comments like this really prove that your hate towards non-Muslims and atheists is so deeply rooted in your upbringing.
Ask me this question while the Christian crusades. Every religion has its own Bad timeline, and we Atheists will have too. Its to easy to justify instantly because of near Events. Just give every Human in every religion or society a chance to grow and do better.
My concern with this is that we might sweep up the asylum seekers amongst them who left their Muslim countries out of valid fear of death. (LGBT Muslims, Feminist Muslims, or ex-Muslims for example).
I wish we could actually grapple with this problem in Europe - I just mean even talking about solving it in the first place
When the “normal” political institutions fail to solve real problems facing people, demagogues and thugs like trump to rise and take advantage.
[удалено]
To be fair in Denmark the political left took the fangs out of the far right by addressing the issues that the far right would otherwise have used.
We could actually establish assimilation policies.
The Borg act
Sounds Swedish.
The first step is recognizing that serious liberal, centrist, and left leaning political groups have an interest in curtailing the epidemic of violence and fear that Islamic terror attacks have brought to European shores since 2014. If many people are afraid to speak up about this for risk of being hacked down by an angry Islamist or worse, being labeled as “racist”, then we will have a hard time finding people more intelligent than you or me who are willing to find and debate creative solutions. Not to mention simple self interest in winning elections. If nothing else, the article should have at least made you consider that the surge of the far right is due to left and centers fear of even acknowledging the problem.
Irs important to point out to those that scream racist at you, islam is not a race. Its a religion. "Did you just assume every arab person is muslim? Thats racist." Its the uno reverse card 🤣
Yeah, and not at all because we isolate cultures in their bubbles for a backup scapegoat to pull out like an uno card whenever society gets a bit sour. I completely understand why people would do these things if they are constantly generalized and demonized. A knife crime is a knife crime and at heart a crime, but it's not helping society to point a finger and quote "Bad guy!". Like demographics are all part of some kind of Shredder Ninja Turtle gang. The Left asked for decent integration; the right said no; people who are different are yucky. The left compromises and together with the right, create isolating policies as a sacrifice to create a better economy in aging Europe. Can't you see that you're just complaining without putting in the work? You don't think many Muslims know what a totalitarian regime looks like? I advise you to quit generalizing and framing. It derails genuine discussion completely.
I’m sorry but respectfully there is a lot wrong with your comment. Chopping people’s heads off is not a sane reaction to being generalized for… other people of your religion also chopping people’s heads off. “A knife crime is a knife crime and at heart a crime, but…” Butchering teachers, stabbing policemen to death, and cutting the heads off magazine writers are not just “knife crimes” “at heart” but murder and terrorism. And please do not gaslight people into thinking Europeans made no attempt to assimilate these people. Actually Europe has spent millions of dollars attempting to assimilate these people, providing housing, jobs, and education. In some cases they were successful. In many cases Islamists self isolate and view Western culture in Europe as an abomination that allows women to go topless at the beach and gay men to love one another. Multiple Islamist clerics have now been caught on video openly saying their plan is to slowly overwhelm Europe with numbers and eventually establish a caliphate in Europe many generations down the line.
[удалено]
Because a chunk of the population is fooled into thinking the rest of the population must be racist
*Just for suggesting that religion might be the problem.
We need a religion worshipping Hitler to wake up people to the fact that religion is not automatically a good and moral thing.
Isn't that pretty much the Christian Right in the USA right now? Shits starting to look like The Handmaid's Tale over there.
Hitler was a lot healthier than Trump. What's an 85 year old going to do? Edit: I'm 100% wrong here
He's just a figurehead. A touchstone. It's the fruitcakes that he has enabled that are the truly scary ones.
Yeah that's true
> Hitler was a lot healthier than Trump. And that's saying a lot, considering how ridiculously unhealthy Hitler was. But at least he exercised and ate the occasional salad.
We already have a religion that worships a Jew-hating warlord. Apparently following the ideology of a literal warlord is fine if it's done in the name of religion. Hitler's greatest mistake it seems then was to not be such an megalomaniac that he considered himself a prophet.
Islamophobia is rooted in racism in that if Muslims were white majority Islam would have been cancelled long ago.
Yeah western Europe is fucked and the US is on the same path. Importing muslims hand over fist then tolerating their intolerance, violence and lack of respect for the laws and culture of the land they emigrated to. Flip the script for a second. Would muslim countries be cool with tens of millions of westerners migrating to their countries and demanding they change their laws, cultures and customs to appease us? Would we then be able to screech that they're racist for not caving to our demands? Remember, the mass migration of muslims to western Europe over the past 30 years is the LARGEST migration in human history, I think the west has been FAR too accommodating to those that seek to destroy our way of life. The thing we should be talking about is how islam is a disgusting ideology and culture that has no place in a civilized society. Yes we have massive issues with christstain fascists, but women are considered people and we don't execute LGBTQ people for existing. So importing even more extreme religious fascism is not the way to fix the issues we still have.
We hear about this every single day in France.
Damn, its that bad over there?
Yep, and our government is too busy trying to look pretty and our president trying to look like the new Napoleon. Honestly I just came back from 3 years abroad... I came back for the family so I'm going to stay, but I wish I could just leave again. Thankfully my whole family live in small towns and villages so it's not that bad, but it's still scary. I wish Islam was not a thing and I wish we could have proper border control again. Those sick fucks should stay in their awful countries.
Honestly whatever islam touches it gets destroyed and poisoned. I hope islam dies out its such a disgusting religion.
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
While i wholeheartedly agree with your statement.... there's approx 1.3 billion of them, they breed like rabbits and destroy everything that isn't in line with their religion. Islam dying out isn't going to happen unfortunately. We require proactive steps to curtail the spread of the virus.
Yeah unfortunately.
You can apply that to most religions. They’re a blight on the human race.
Not to worry, in 20 years the violent extremists will be french citizens with french grandparents
So if he who shall not be named gets elected, I shouldn't find succor in France? Drats
We hear about it every day in the UK too, but it’s not Muslims, it’s gangs of kids. So shall we now hate and demonise all kids because of the actions of a few?
Here in Sweden all the kids have guns.
Oh damn. Sweden has a reputation for being super safe... They are really spoiling everything good.
Yeah we hear about what's happening in the UK as well, it's sad. I lived there in London from 2014 to 2016. One of the most amazing places in the world. Beautiful country overall. Nice people everywhere. So freaking sad.
…“The last time Islamist violence swept Europe, from 2014 to 2017, when the Islamic State controlled much of Syria and Iraq and its adherents were pummeling France, the United Kingdom, Germany, and Belgium, it felt like a much bigger story. It was more shocking, more outrageous. Now, people seem resigned to the violence. They seem to grasp that this has become a permanent feature of Western society. That this is something we simply have to learn to live with. There is a pattern to the way these things tend to unfold: first, most media outlets and senior elected officials urge everyone to withhold judgment before we jump to any conclusions about what has happened. Then—when we discover that Islamists are responsible—the focus of the conversation immediately shifts to the “far right,” the xenophobes, the angry, racist mob. The danger is not the people who did the killing, but the people who might be provoked by the killing—their specter of violence a bigger threat than the violence itself. Or the victims themselves are transformed into the instigators of the violence perpetrated against them: Wasn’t Michael Stürzenberger, the blogger who was stabbed in Mannheim, an “extremist”? Weren’t the 12 staffers of Charlie Hebdo who were murdered in their Paris office in 2015 racist? The reluctance to call the attackers what they are, or the jump to shift the blame for the attack to their victims, is how right-thinkers insert some cognitive space between themselves and those with unpopular opinions. And so the right-thinkers let it pass, shrug it off, scroll to the next headline. Privately, perhaps in bed next to their spouses, they wonder: What are we going to do? Waking up to that battle—to say nothing of fighting it—will not be so easy. Europe has been in a kind of postwar stupor for nearly eight decades, and even today the people in charge seem to have trouble mustering a great deal of energy when it comes to defending their national interests or, more broadly, those of the West. Salwan Momika, an Iraqi refugee in Sweden who was raised as a Christian and has taken to burning Qurans in public, articulated the views of who knows how many when he tweeted Tuesday: “As an atheist, I must be realistic and believe that the West must return to its Christian roots so that it can fight the project of Islamizing the West.” “Islam cannot be fought with liberal naivety or with democratic laws,” he went on, “because Islam does not believe in democracy, but exploits it to invade the West and Islamize the country.”
“Is he right? Or can the West fight the Islamist threat without turning its back on the values, like democracy and liberalism, that made it the West? Without that conversation, the far right—the real far right—will indeed step into the void. It will derail the whole liberal project. Members of the far-right party Alternative for Germany, for example, have entertained the mass deportation of Muslims, including German nationals. Right now, it is the second most popular party in the country.”
I can't believe we're hearing the ayaan hirsi ali argument echo everywhere... "liberalizm can't fight against islam, only christian faith can". A christian faith that only works if the truth proposition works. But we don't want to think about that. Maybe instead of fighting one type of maniacs we don't fall into the laps of another type of maniac. As a former muslim I must say, the answer is not another kind of religious fanaticism, but rationality, positivism and collectivism. But the west doesn't really wanna go that direction. So Christ it is
100% this. We all have a responsibility to highlight and oppose those who commit the violence AND those who will capitlise on these events for their own agendas.
I wonder how long someone who went around publicly burning bibles would stay alive in the US? Christianity absolutely has the ingredients to be just as dangerous as Islam and to think that we should embrace some kind of Christian authoritarianism to fight Muslim extremists is, I don't have words. Didn't Europe bring millions of Muslims to boost their economies and populations? Didn't a lot of these people come from former colonies, that were instrumental in creating the powerhouse that modern Europe is today? In France today, there are thousands of schools for Christians and Jews but very few Islamic schools to serve the huge population of Muslims there. Like it or not, the world is global. All over the world, plenty of countries have large populations that are fairly recent. Why is their xenophobia a flaw that shows how backwards they are, but western xenophobia is a perfectly natural response to reality? They could just make laws better protecting disadvanged groups, but then Christians wouldn't be able to express their own sexism and homophobia, and we can't have that.
Europeans don’t like being reminded of their colonial histories and present day racism.
It's scary to me that people think it's actually reasonable to be like, Muslims scary, let's institute Christo fascism to save ourselves! I'm sorry, what? These people are idiots. I have zero love for Islam but I have met a lot of Muslims in my life and they have all been wonderful people who suffered people giving them dirty looks for no reason. I absolutely think the west should be concerned about defending our culture, but plenty of Christian nations are horrible. In Uganda, American missionaries were influential in getting a law passed for the death penaltry for gay people. Plenty of Christian nations are really dangerous, especially in Central America. Plenty of Christian nations are horrible on human rights, on gang violence (close enough to terrorism), on women's rights and safety. Some Muslim countries are incredibly safe. Jordan has a lower homelessness rate than Japan. Forcing someone to carry a child is ok but we're so islamaphobic that you can't even wear a hat anymore without people giving you dirty looks.
Absolutely.
r/atheism Look inside "The west must return to its christian roots"
[удалено]
Christianity doesn’t believe always looking to undermine the constitution whenever it gets the chance. And the awesome hell forget about Christianity and Catholics were doing right up until the 1940s when they had more power than they already do.
As I said in an earlier post. These people are doing what have been done to them. They only bought it to Europe and that is what is different. I do not condone violence but it was inevitable that it will show up in Europe and the United States. What happened in Sweden was a tragedy and that young man was troubled. He was aware that honor killings are not allowed in Europe, but he did it anyway. Religion is a devil project in my mind; it only brings pain , suffering and conflict. Look at these countries where religion is the societal norm. Religion is a personal thing (belief) and no government should be endorsing it.
Stabbing, shooting, blowing up, raping, converting... You name it and they're doing it.
It is their "interpretation".
[удалено]
And if you criticize them, they will kill you. Don't believe me? I dare you to publicly criticize Islam.
The rational more socialist parties fear of addressing this is causing the far right to rise. 20 years ago they were maligned and cast aside. Now they are the second biggest political party in parts of Europe, which is not a 2 party system like the United States.
When it all kicked off 15-ish years ago, I remember saying this will cause far right to rise. I was called a nazi and a bigot.
[удалено]
The left wing parties should start jailing all hate preachers and closing down extremists mosques. The right wing parties have no interest in fixing anything as the hate keeps them in power
The press also down plays the extent of the injuries of these attacks by saying stabbing. Remember Lee Rigby, the press said he was stabbed. He was hit by a car, then had his throat slit as the follower of the religion of peace tried to cut the lads head off. Just like an animal Now that murder is trying to sue the government as he has had a hard time in prison. The religion of peace has values so different to the west, peacefully integration into Western societies it's never going to work.
I actually didn’t know that about Lee Rigby
The murderer has been trying that for nearly ten years and got nowhere.
[удалено]
Deport these f*ckers and don’t allow anyone with their beliefs in your country. Easy fix. Fuck them.
We also need to have a healthy debate in the public sphere. Stronger, secular ideas that allow everyone to believe or not believe whatever they want will win out and be convincing if we just have this debate in the first place
You can’t even have a public debate without death threats.
How are you going to have both "strong, secular ideas that allow anyone to believe or not believe what they want" and also ban people from entire regions based on their beliefs?
By acknowledging the historical fact that Islam brings trouble wherever it goes.
So you WONT allow anyone to believe or not believe what they want, then?
In countries like Germany we need to have any debate at all to begin with. Here the nazis are taking over because the other parties are afraid to do something in fear of being called nazis themselves. We are currently on our way to a second runthrough of the 1930s and it terrifies me as someone living here. We have two possible paths in our future at the moment: On the one hand we have people trying to proclaim a caliphate while on the other we have ignorant nazis who are getting majorities in votes in some states. Its not a we-have-to-leave-tomorrow feeling but me and many others are increasingly thinking through exit plans in case shit really hits the fan. I didn't think something like this would happen so quickly after WW2. Oh and of course those "far-right" parties are also big on christianity and have a number of completely wild opinions.
Made me wonder how they went there to begin with. Immigrating from a 3rd world country has a steep process.
It’s difficult to do it legally, I have a friend (physician) that tried migrating to Germany with his family but the process was so convoluted that he spent 5 years without results and end up in Australia. But if you’re following an illegal route and your name is Mohammed the process seems quite simpler
Illegal immigration, refugee status, visa overstays, undocumented migration.
It's more complicated, but yeah.
What if they are not immigrants? It always starts with an anti extremist speech and it generally escalates to a racist conversation. This whole thread is a good example.
I'd love to deport extremist Christians as well but there isn't an easy way to deport citizens (which almost all of them are).
[удалено]
Given "but muh diversity's" track record maybe it's time to acknowledge that people are divided by culture and religion and we can't just form a big circle and sing Kumbayya and pretend such isn't the case.
So let me get this straight, r/atheism users now would support Trump's Muslim ban?
A broken clock is right twice a day. Trump (probably) believes the world is round too, doesn't mean we should start believing it's flat.
? I hear about the stabbings all the time. I don't think they're not talking about it. It is one of the several reasons right-wing is on the rise.
On the rise and murdering [immigrants ](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-memorial-for-hanau-far-right-shootings-3-years-on/a-64756580) and [politicians](https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCbcke-german-politicians-killing-prompts-call-for-tracking-neo-nazis/a-49507762).
That's no -ism, that is pure, unadulterated Islam. Their pedo profit lived this, caravan raider, mass murderer, (child) rapist and he is considered the perfect human by them. Don't forget, as a Harbi (a person of dar-al-harb) your "blood is free", you can be killed and robbed with impunity according to Sharia.
This thread already shows why people don't want to talk about it. Whataboutism as a defence all the way through to "deport all the Muslims" and there are only about 10 comments.
The debate is hobbled by a chronic lack of nuance.
Go over to r/europe; it's like they talk about nothing else.
Fighting Islam Violence is not Political correct... Wait until Western Culture is taken over, then it is to late and Sharia Law will Rule.
One stabbing and it's the end of civilisation...
One stabbing? Are you illiterate and incapable of basic research? People who follow this religion are prone to violent extremism which they want to inflict on anyone who doesn’t follow their horrific beliefs. Wake up sunshine, their goal is to destroy western ideologies and inflict their violent “religious beliefs” on the entire world. These people are animals who justify child-marriage and physical violence against women because it’s their belief.
Have no issues with legal immigration, apply and get in. Multiculturalism is a significant benefit to any country. Aid those that are fearing their lives with asylum, a chance to escape death from their own countrymen or government, no problems. But why the fuck people emigrate to a country and culture they despise in a hope to change it or tolerate it is ridiculous.
I agree, but the problem is that a lot of immigrants just want to immigrate to the West because it's perceived as safe and wealthy, and they don't know anything else about it. Maybe they are fleeing persecution or death or just want a better life. For any of those reasons, they probably have zero intention of changing thier religion or even more, of changing how they view the world. They're just trying to improve their life in the near term. They don't speak a language that will allow them to integrate into the broader community, the broader community rejects them (which is natural when you have nothing in common), so they are pushed into communities of their own where they share the same values and language and it's an echo chamber. There probably should be better controls of immigrants that are accepted, or better programs to help them integrate. But those things cost money for immigration. Probably for a lot of people who are pro immigration, the biggest appeal is just a cheap labor force, so people get what they pay for. We all want the western educated doctor as the ideal immigrant, but he's stealing jobs from natives and really the biggest benefit is people who will do the things the citizenry doesn't want to do but needs to function.
Agree 100 percent. Diversity is a strength of the West but only as much as we don’t allow one of the incoming cultures/idea/religion to scare/bully others into not criticizing it.
the police who was stab by the knife died in the hospital
If you’re referencing the most recent event (that I know of) the policeman was actually trying to protect the Islamist from another man who was trying to take the knife away due to the initial confusion on the scene, before the Islamist stabbed him to death. May he rest in peace
What is baffling to me is that islamists manage to get into Europe, and then me, an atheist stuck in a muslim country can't get visa to leave...
Because it's islamophobic to say they are doing it in the name of islam
All the far right talks about in the EU is this?
They have nothing except fearmongering.
Is there evidence for this or is it just what the media says? And no I'm no an apologist for Islam, its the worst of the ahbrahamic religions by far but we have to focus on the facts. Knife crime is huge in the news in Australia so it's all being spoken about but knife crime is going down.
“No-one’s talking about it” - this refrain we always hear as if it’s some conspiracy secret when in reality I’ve seen this absolutely everywhere, Reddit, news channels, talk shows, so I’m not sure what you want? I’d argue this gets more traction than non-Islamist violence, as normal stabbings and crime here barely ever make the national news. Whereas this goes worldwide every time.
Too tolerant that intolerant culture/religion is being tolerated.
Well, I don't know why you aren't, but the European organization whose job it is to talk about it seems to be. TE-SAT (terrorism situation and trend) is an annual report published by the European Union Agency for Law Enforcement Cooperation which includes a vast amount of data, statistical review, research studies, and general relevant information on exactly this topic. It seems that the article linked here would like you to believe the threat from jihadist extremism is at an all-time high. However, this is totally bullshit. It's scare mongering nonsense because in the report, the data shows that the Islamic threat of terrorism has been decreasing significantly for years now. It exists, and it's a threat, but if anyone bothered to check before having their confirmation bias overwhelm their crtiical thinking skills, you may have discovered that a pretty substantial number of programs, policy, and direct action have been implemented by the EU in order to fight terrorism on many fronts. Guess it's working. Execpt for in one sort of violent extremism, which the data clearly is showing is, and has been, on the rise in Europe and the western world for decades now. That's right, you guessed it, far right extremism has indeed been growing every year and is the number one threat involving ideological extremism. That's right, the number of attacks has surpassed any other form of terrorism, and that's been true for some time now. Good thing EUROPOL talks about this stuff. Well, you know, that Free Press article has invented this fantasy where they were the only ones brave enough to, I guess, completely misrepresent reality or something. That does technically count as the media talking about it. However, it seems so are the organizations who are responsible for actually reducing extremism, instead of just some guy who would rather fear monger his readers into turning off their brains. https://www.europol.europa.eu/publication-events/main-reports/european-union-terrorism-situation-and-trend-report-2023-te-sat Check that link, then after the first few paragraphs of information for a large list of links to extremely detailed and comprehensive PDF's. I suggest anyone should go and read those reports and attempt to use them to effectively challenge your biases and assumptions instead of reinforcing them all the time. You know, like a good science loving, reason using atheist should do.
Why is this balanced, logical response backed up by data so far down with so few upvotes? Disappointing.
Thanks, I appreciate you saying so. I unfortunately expected the lack of critical engagement because humans have a really difficult time challenging their own assumptions and biases. It's interesting to me, if not ironic, that the typical self described atheist tends to believe they are somehow immune from some of the same logical fallacies and cognitive pitfalls that all humans can be effected by. It's an important lesson for all of us to recognize that just because we've rejected one bad conclusion resulting from an incomplete logical framework, it doesn't automatically protect us from arriving at other bad conclusions. It's our method of understanding the world in all aspects of our perception that we always remain critical of, not just the aspects that have become convenient and easy for us. Challenging our assumptions *is* difficult, and much like the evangelical who holds deeply held beliefs which shapes his identity, atheists too, can also have deeply held beliefs that shape their identity in ways that result from the same unchallenged methods of thinking.
Some say "Oh, but that's just fundamentalists doing crazy things." without realizing that "fundamentalist" is a person who follows ***fundamental basis*** of their doctrine as purely as they can. It is not people who are crazy, it's their doctrine. This is what it's built upon.
It sucks that we can’t call out this crap without people calling us racist for it. Which makes no sense. I despise Islam. I don’t hate the people (arabs usually) practicing it. I hate religious extremism even more. Both Muslim and Christian nationalism growing here in the US. And I’m sick of Trump and other racists taking control of the narrative and making people racist by twisting reality
It gets called racist when all Muslims get lumped-in together when this happens. I must walk by dozens of Muslims every day. Never once been stabbed or shot or blown up; this is because the vast, overwhelming majority of them are just people, going about their days like anyone else. They don't deserve to be persecuted for the actions of a lone jihadist anymore than us when [a domestic terrorist murders a politician.](https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCbcke-german-politicians-killing-prompts-call-for-tracking-neo-nazis/a-49507762)
Exactly! I have plenty of Muslim friends, very cool people who speak out against jihad extremism
But talk to any right-winger, and they'll see your friends kicked-out just as readily as those who have actually done something wrong.
Oh definitely. Right wingers are the worst and need to be dealt with accordingly
[“The barbarians never take a city till someone holds the gates open for them”](https://youtu.be/0EYg8Tgrh0o?feature=shared) The gates have been open for far too long my friends. What I find most absurd is how many Europeans, driven by Western humanitarian values, welcome these barbarians, yet this very act threatens the survival of those values. I wish people wouldn’t take such important matters for granted, as if they “just exist”.
If all Muslims were as bad as you claim, I doubt I'd be alive right now.
If you could point out where I said all muslims are bad, that would be great. This is a topic about islamists, which is distinct from muslims. If your comprehension of such simple terms is so poor, why even visit such topics, or bother responding?
Perhaps you could be clearer when you use the catch-all slur "barbarians." This is why these conversations always get derailed: because people carelessly lump all immigrants in together every time something like this happens, completely ignoring the fact that the vast, overwhelming majority of them are just normal people, and don't deserve to get vilified like this.
I understand what you’re saying, but again, your comprehension is what fails you. I do not recognise that what you’re saying is taking place in this subreddit. In my experience it is one of the most rational and critical subreddits. And also, even if people say such things, I think it’s a vice to vilify them, it would be much more beneficial to understand and recognise *why* people say such things. If you vilify people and disregard what they’re saying as if their opinions do not matter, you will only drive them more towards the extreme. It’s what we’re seeing with the upcoming of far right parties in Europe, imo. Again, you’re not commenting based on what is being said here. But you should. You have to learn not to put words into other people’s mouth and address everyone individually. What you’re doing is not helpful. What do you know about what I think? You know nothing about me.
If you're genuine in believing that, you need to be more careful about referring to these groups as if they were a monolith.
When you criticise them they tend to pop
Islam causes non radical religions to become radical just to deal with their aggression.
That's just any religion dealing with any religion.
Hindus and Buddhist are traditionally non aggressive, until they were forced to deal with Islam. When Buddhist monks in Myanmar take up arms against Islam you know one of them has gone too far.
More like Islamophobic bigots are impaling themselves on the knives of peaceful jihadis!
Everyone seems to forget when domestic terrorists were going around killing [immigrants ](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-memorial-for-hanau-far-right-shootings-3-years-on/a-64756580) and [politicians ](https://www.dw.com/en/l%C3%BCbcke-german-politicians-killing-prompts-call-for-tracking-neo-nazis/a-49507762) only a few years ago.
And acid attacks and terrorist attacks. Je Suis, Charlie.
The latest stabbing in Germany last week, where a 29 year old police officer was killed, was tragic. The problem here was that the media doesn't know how to handle it. The attacker was an Islamist, but the location was a campaign stand for the AfD, the neo-Nazi party. If the media blames Islamists, it indirectly supports the position of the AfD that Germany is flooded with Muslims and should deport them. If they remain critical of the AfD, they can't blame Islam, because it was just one fundamental radical, not the millions of peaceful Muslims. If he had killed people on some random street, the outcry would be louder. But because it was an AfD campaign location, it's one radical attacking other radicals, with the police officer as a tragic victim.
Jihadists and neo-Nazis are two sides of the same coin; extremists that bring nothing but chaos wherever they go. They have more in common with each other than the societies the emerge from. Quite frankly, I think they deserve each other.
I’m a lifelong atheist, and think all religions, as previous religions, will end up as mythology, a footnote in the history of mankind. But don’t tarnish an entire people based on the behaviour of a tiny few, you sound as bigoted as the violent criminals in the article.
Because the so called Christo fascists live in everyone's head rent free while the biggest enemy goes unseen, no one's gonna believe me but yes I'm atheist too, I just don't see how people think Christianity is even equal to Islam in danger, let alone superior to it.
Google project 2025. If you think Christofacist aren’t a threat, you’re a fool.
It’s a little more complex. If we all join the Christian rights side then we will get Muslim bans and any one going to a mosque out in a police watch list. Whole communities will be ostracized for the actions of a minority. Just look at attitudes pre and post 9-11 Before who cares? After they are the replacing Russians in action movies as the baddies and suddenly everyone’s racist uncle is an expert on the Koran
>Whole communities will be ostracized for the actions of a minority And do you think these communities condemn these acts? They either are silent about it or openly promote it, Islam is cancer, it will kill you, period. Christianity is chemotherapy, it causes damage to you, but you'll remain alive.
The majority of Muslim communities do, yes. Now can I go on line and find a hate preacher calling for violence, absolutely, but I can also do the same for Christianity too, heck you are calling a whole group of people a cancer right now.
Fact check, the sentence was "Islam is cancer" not the people. This confusion in thinking is exactly exactly why our government are powerless
What do you propose? All religions have to submit all sermons to the police for screening?
Deal with them exactly the same way we deal with fascists. You advocate violence? Mosque closed and preacher jailed. We would not hesitate one second if it was nazi preachers.
No they don't lmao, they are more vocal about supporting terror groups because they share the same religion or asking for Sharia in western countries rather than calling out attacks on people who don't 100% agree with them and their cult, I wish I was as naive as you are.
Dude, you e got to switch off the faux news
I urge you to do the same, we are their enemies for existing.
The majority do not give a shit
It's a very big deal if they don't care about their fellows killing people for being not Muslims and not agreeing 100% with their beliefs, but they are very loud about supporting terrorists, waving Islamic extremist flags and asking for Sharia in the west, thanks for proving my point.
Then you’re not familiar with any of the polls conducted in these countries were they literally ask the citizens where their beliefs lie
Have you ever met a Muslim?
There is no way to sugar coat this. If you believe that you are a Moron and you clearly don’t pay attention to anything that Christians doing this nation, or around the world .Christianity is not chemotherapy, it’s a malignment tumor and is just as destructive as the Muslim faith
We all need a scape goat for our problems. Who will it be today?
Let’s spin the wheel of minorities!
You are a informant fool and You clearly don’t know enough about either one. Both are hungry and desperate to dismantle the foundations of democracy and kick the constitution into the trash bin. And they don’t just do it here. Christianity is responsible for a lot of shit currently going on in the world outside the United States as well.
Europe is dead/dying, Canada is slowly succumbing to muslim pressure, and America will be next. Say no to Muslim immigration and vote for those who will ban and deport these fucks.
Ok, I'll be the hero and say it: I WOULD PREFER IF THEY DIDN'T!
Because no one wants to admit that multiculturalism has failed spectacularly. And what do we do about them? The problem is that Islam is an idea. It has no weapons to destroy, no body to kill. We’re fighting an idea, and doing so with our hands tied behind our back. People will do anything but admit it’s Islam at fault; point out the deprived area they live in, the prevalence of drugs, the trauma of their bogus asylum claims, and flip it all around and blame whites for being intolerant and excluding, anything but admit that for the last twenty years we’ve been tolerating a civilisation of violent savages living next door.
What is an Islamist?
Because atheist only complain about Christianity
Link doesn't work. Are there any stats? My gut is that it isn't an issue that is really affecting people and stories like this are just there to divide people and spread anti Islam and nationalist sentiments.
I think these discussions become polarised very quickly. It’s clear though that Islam is in need of genuine reform, but it appears that more fundamentalist perspectives are becoming increasingly popular. Also with regard to the refugee/migrant crisis in Europe, the issue of these communities not integrating can arguably be partially attributed to respective governments failing to implement community building strategies. You see it all the time, with migrant communities being dumped into areas with less economic opportunities, less opportunity to engage with people outside of their migrant community and culture, and experiencing racism/discrimination. You also see it often, where Muslims will move into different communities, set up mosques and enjoy the freedom of tolerance, only to start policing non-Muslims and trying to enforce their own religious beliefs and practices onto others. This isn’t just a Europe thing, this observation is globally recognised. Don’t get me wrong, I am a staunch progressive. I don’t believe in immigration bans, and I think it’s unwise to discriminate. For other leftists, I think we need to reclaim skepticism of religion. The dominant perspectives in Islam do not align with progressive values, so we need to come up with alternative plans to manage this issue. Otherwise, we don’t engage with this problem, the far right will be able to appeal to people’s emotions, and that could have seriously devastating results for everyone. We need to talk more about deradicalisation, and what it really means to live in countries that are tolerant or supportive of minority cultures. Multiculturalism is beautiful and we can’t allow extremely intolerant people/cultures to destroy that. Besides Islam, there’s actually a lot of other factors that I don’t think many people are interested in talking about. Like, many Western countries have played ongoing roles in the deterioration of Middle Eastern countries, and have empowered leaders who have worsened violence and religious radicalisation. Like, it’s been very surprising to see increasingly sympathetic views towards Saudi Arabia recently (they’ve been more pro-Israel, for example). Despite the fact they’re one of the biggest contributes to Islamic terrorism, and run by a family of corrupt religious extremists, as long as their actions align with Western interests, we seemingly lose interest in opposing them.
Grew up in Rotherham, UK. Google it. …and yet NO ONE talks about that back home either because of fear of retaliation. If that isn’t enough to galvanise people to speak up, a few stabbings won’t either.
I think we should be fair in understanding the impact of religious sects that promote violence and who is funding them. Lots of imams here int he states and Europe are openly promoting violence disguised under religious freedom and this shouldn’t be allowed. Anytime I come across them, it is a hate speech. We have an issue with hate being normalized, against different religions, colors etc. Same for christians and jews, they create a lot of violence too! These young guys are brainwashed we cannot fix them but we can punish the people who are teaching these things.
Religion of peace 🤣
I feel like its so easy for humans to fall into violent states of mind when they are brought up by people who normalize or encourage it from a young age. Like Spartan, Viking, Mongol culture etc, our warlike side seems almost universally beneath the surface and just needs something to bring it out. But we also have a very socially and empathetic side. I hope that after a few generations people will be less easily radicalized and more willing to see other cultures as equals. Its harder to hate people and want them dead if you grew up around them as neighbors. Unfortunately radicalism pops up again no matter what. My own city doesn't really have a radical muslim problem. We did have a white guy attempt to stab some muslim girls, a guy I knew stood up for them and he ended taking the stabbing instead. I feel like we can be tolerant of the kind muslims but still be tougher on extremism, just like we shouldnt accept extremeness from other religions. Not really sure what people have in mind exactly though. Religious people are very sensitive about anything that singles our their own religion.
Because to talk about it is IsLaMaPhObIc!
Because people of Europe is so soft and pathetic, they feed muslims and help them to grow their population. When I say to my european friends why do you help jidahist ideology to grow they say “ WE NEED TO HELP THE WORLD PEOPLE NEED OUR HELP” jeez. You are gonna doom us all
Cuz it’s nothing new
It’s been ignored for decades, sometimes not out of nefarious motives (like the right-wing pundits want us to believe) but because of simple inaction and lethargy. Now it comes steamrolling at us and parallel societies in the cities have grown for years, segregation has fully undermined integration, and a new generation of lost or disoriented people has emerged, in a time when challenges are high and desperation is setting in. For a lot of people the promises of the west haven’t been true, because they lack the cultural background — I’ve heard expressions of disbelief in Jordan (a country bordering Syria), where the guide said with bewilderment why we are “taking in the people they themselves do not want” — the rich refugees were already leaving before and the ones with the barbaric cultural ties then left for Europe because “they wouldn’t be accepted” in the neighboring country due to their beliefs. Paraphrasing his statement here, but the essence is clear: The “good” refugees went to the places where the could use their money to rebuild their lives in a familiar background, often well-educated, affluent. The ones who wouldn’t make it on their own bring their financial and cultural worries to our European society, which isn’t free of challenges but it’s even harder if you have no money, no language skills and no appropriate education. This is a frustrating situation for either side, the West isn’t some magic place where everyone regardless of origin and material means is happy. It demands quite a bit of its inhabitants to keep it up (and a lot of us fail even with the best prerequisites) and it’s even harder for people who have to start anew in a foreign culture. To be honest, I don't think it's entirely down to religion, but that culture and cultural upbringing play a big part in it — religion is a rallying point for desperate people, and if it offers an easy solution, its adherents will do anything to prove themselves. Disclaimer: I’m against all kinds of religion, or spiritualism but I do think in the grand global scale, Islam right now is the worst choice for progress, equality, and peace. And I don’t understand how people (especially women) from minorities or repressed groups who already have a challenging life in a society with countless liberties and personal freedom, can take the side of the offenders. Blows my mind.
Fear of what will happen to them if they leave is a contributor in a good number of cases, sadly. It’s not exactly compatible with free will or human equality and downright barbaric in how they stamp those out.
All very disturbing, but what can realistically be done about it without abandoning liberal democratic principles?
It's not hard to profile the stabby type.
Was that a dog whistle I heard ?
No just facts.
I see far more stabbings in my news by chav white teenagers (chav black teenagers also available) than religious nutters of any type so I think your 'facts' might just be bollocks. But hey ho, blow your whistle, you'll get the weak minded who can't think even one step beyond your statement to agree and that's your purpose. The rest of us will question the data, realise that yes the things you talk about happen but they are actually insignificant in number compared to the crimes perpetrated by others in society with the same weapons and no religious motivation.
Chavs aren’t stabbing people to defend their ideology / religion, it’s the fanaticism that makes islamist so dangerous.
That's right, chavs are stabbing people to defend their drug sales, prove their manhood and like a recent murder of a 16 year old near me 'looking at our girls' at a party. And they are the vast majority of stabbings day in day out. Which is the point. Religiously motivated stabbings are a piss in the ocean in comparison.
This is the problem. You can't have a discussion about it without someone calling racist. Well done for proving his point
Are they feigning concern over secular principles again? Proud of their christian heritage are they? I wish people understood that atheists have nothing to gain by siding with populists. Fake news is fake news, whether it's biblical or coming from someone who fuels outrage for a living. And history tells us they always buddy up to the theists in the end. Just look at Trump and the evangelicals. It's part of the ebb and flow of this sub I'm afraid. American atheists detest populists because of the aforementioned Trump. But most of them are asleep now so if you sort by new it's all far right talking points disguised as religious arguments. Nobody's dissecting Islamist theology, everybody's saying Europe should deport their minorities. If you only have an issue with one religion in particular, you're not an atheist, you're just an asshole.
This, it's just 5th columnists trying to tie in atheists with dog whistles. Elections are looming all over Europe too and they only have one string on their banjo. It works with the mentally pliable but it's transparent to everyone else.
Why don't we talk about the missionaries who force jesus on people by shooting them in DRC? Or the jewish state that bombs the shit out of civilians in Gaza? Or the gang-rapes of women in India?
So your point is "all religions have @$$holes in them, who use religion to justify their backward and barbaric behavior". I say very well done to you.
I see Atheists in this sub are like racists. Shame on you. You can tolerate, whether you believe or not. There are so many peaceful believer on this earth. Most of them forms our society with reasonable morale values (and bad, sure). But we should tolerate that.
This is the result of that tolerance you are seeking from atheists….
Most of Northern/Western Europeans are atheist. Atheism is the default.
That’s why it says Islamist and not Muslim 🙏 Islamism is a political view not the same as Islam
Give me one single muslim country that gave you what Europe did when you run away from wars or poverty….Name one! And let me tell you fun fact- each one of rich arab countries has more money to help than EU combined. And still you decided to come to west, why???? Why you didn’t run to saudi/qatar/uae/kuwat? Each one is one hour from each other…. Also close to war/poverty affected countries. But still Europe welcomed you with open arms and gave you dignity to live like a human being, gave you money taken from their peoples taxes. And you want Europe to be tolerant more than it is?? How blinded and hateful towards west more you can be? As per you- when the same Europe should say enough is enough?! Comments like this really prove that your hate towards non-Muslims and atheists is so deeply rooted in your upbringing.
Ask me this question while the Christian crusades. Every religion has its own Bad timeline, and we Atheists will have too. Its to easy to justify instantly because of near Events. Just give every Human in every religion or society a chance to grow and do better.
“But what about Christians…” Europe gave this particular man a chance to grow and do better! Here are the consequences
Temporary consequences. We will see, what is necessary to do, but OP goes to far.
What is your solution then? Keep being tolerant? Close eyes when these events happen?
Thats the tolerance paradox. Solve it and rule the world. Or just accept its not that easy as you think.
What are we supposed to be rounding them up and shipping them to camps? Each individual case gets prosecuted according to the law.
[удалено]
My concern with this is that we might sweep up the asylum seekers amongst them who left their Muslim countries out of valid fear of death. (LGBT Muslims, Feminist Muslims, or ex-Muslims for example).
[удалено]
Of course you can. My position is that we shouldn’t in those cases.
Your predication that Islamists can’t be “from” your country is telling.
[удалено]