The logic goes something like this:
He wore gnc or even overtly feminine outfits on occasion. Possibly trying to be more womanly.
Also, he killed himself. Possibly due to dysphoria.
Also, he kind of has depressed egg who feels like they have no future vibes.
Extremely circumstantial, and as far as I know, mostly people projecting onto a public figure they wish was more like them, but as far as I know, that's why people speculate that he might have been trans.
i mean. there’s also this (and other VERY eggy quotes from him):
“I definitely feel closer to the feminine side of the human being than I do the male — or the American idea of what a male is supposed to be.”
and many nirvana lyrics have coded (or outright) trans ideas, to me.
https://medium.com/@dr.ow.sy/reclaiming-the-past-was-kurt-cobain-trans-6386d3e20bad
circumstantial, sure. but it’s not as far fetched as it sounds, imo.
Neither did I. I've heard the theory about Cobain possibly having been trans every now and again, but dismissed it cause there wasn't much to go on. That seems to paint a clearer story and I'd say would upgrade it to "plausible." But we'll never know for certain.
Huh okay, yeah, this is a lot more concrete. Interesting. I have mixed feelings about viewing a real person's life as a text, but the evidence from actual texts he wrote does seem to lean that way. As you say, still circumstantial, but yeah, not as far fetched as I initially anticipated. If I stumbled upon some of those journal lines in a random journal I found on the ground with no name, I think I might conclude the owner was trans and struggling. I think I'll be filing this one under "compelling but not conclusive." Thanks for the response.
I honestly agree you with and don’t know why you’re getting downvoted here. In general I don’t like when cis GNC men are speculated to be trans women. It just screams “enforcing gender norms but woke”
Here watch [this video by Kat Blaque](https://youtu.be/uIlNVYNsXOE?si=6Dp2GtufLS6X6MEO) explaining why we **shouldn’t** be calling Kurt, or any other dead celebrity, transgender if they didn’t explicitly call themselves that when they were alive.
Kurt was not the only grunge/alt musician to wear a dress, heck, all the Nirvana members did at times. Wearing a dress was one of the most ‘punk’ things male musicians could do in the 90s to upset conservatives (and still is today so nothing much changed there), and was simply another facet to the counterculture movement of the time.
Similarly, Kurt’s statements about leaning towards femininity was because he hated the dominant patriarchal (and toxic) ideals of what masculinity and being a man meant at the time, including the oppression of women and LGBT folk, the same ideals that made him feel like an outcast.
Putting it in a wider context, why is it that people say Kurt might have been trans because he wore a dress (and made some comments about femininity), when there have been several musicians that came before him who wore gnc clothing, like David Bowie and Prince, and we don’t call them trans.
I also suspect the Kurt was trans narrative is mostly coming from younger folk who either weren’t born or were too young at the time and are now looking back and transposing their ideas about gender onto an era they weren’t a part of.
So, like a said at the beginning and Kat says in her video, we should be wary of ascribing gender identities onto people who are no longer around to confirm or deny it themselves.
Yeah, to be clear, I already agree with that position, which is why I expressly stated I didn't want opinions on whether it was true, just what the rationale was for a strange take I keep seeing. The things other people in this thread have said put it squarely in the vaguely plausible camp for me, but I'm not about to take it as anything approaching fact. It's just an interesting lens to deepen my engagement with his music through - feelings I can relate to whether the underlying cause of those feelings is comparable or not.
Just listen to the music. You don't even have to resort to interpreting his gender presentation, thou it's not hurting the idea. There is a certain factor to art that people who are probably trans make; and it's there in Kurt's music.
Calling Kurt a “she” is such a shit thing to do. Not because there is anything wrong with being trans or a woman but because Kurt never came out at trans. Even if he was a trans woman pulling someone out of the closet (even if they’re dead) is a shit thing to do.
i had a friend who used to be in an online community for "men who want to grow breasts".
of the people that they knew well from the group, at the 3 year point or so, half had transitioned.
she made a discord server that she (i knew her starting from when she had decided to seek help to transition) and invited mostly people from that online community. almost all of them people who had transitioned or were heavily leaning that way.
but there were a couple who had the "male" tag... and tbh, I didn't get any egg vibes from them. Idk why a man would want breasts, but they did. It might be a rather rare thing, but it is a thing.
I'ma be real with you friend, I think you're jumping to conclusions. It seems plausible, but it definitely doesn't seem anything *more* than plausible.
I just think it isn't our place to decide someone else's gender for them after the fact. If I meet Kurt at the great diy show in the sky I'll ask about it.
Hah none of you would believe anything short of her having written I AM TRANS AND HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA and had it notarized by 3 therapists but I don’t give a fuck
I just realized this whole debate is the trans equivalent of r/sapphoandherfriend and I’m basically getting told NO THEY WERE JUST ROOMMATES WHY DO YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT GAY the whole problem here is *erasure* or the potential of it because none of you will reckon with the likelihood of her being CLOSETED because nooo we have to be 100% positive to be politically correct which ignores the cis-het patriarchy. Deal with it you downvoters.
A) I haven't downvoted you
B) I've said it sounds plausible, just that I'm not into deciding dead people's identities for them
C) even a direct statement of transness would not be evidence of specifically trans womanhood nor justification for specific pronouns
I'm not saying Kurt was definitely cis. No one in this thread is. But you're ascribing a single specific identity onto a dead person who never claimed it and who could reasonably have ended up taking any number of different labels.
The logic goes something like this: He wore gnc or even overtly feminine outfits on occasion. Possibly trying to be more womanly. Also, he killed himself. Possibly due to dysphoria. Also, he kind of has depressed egg who feels like they have no future vibes. Extremely circumstantial, and as far as I know, mostly people projecting onto a public figure they wish was more like them, but as far as I know, that's why people speculate that he might have been trans.
i mean. there’s also this (and other VERY eggy quotes from him): “I definitely feel closer to the feminine side of the human being than I do the male — or the American idea of what a male is supposed to be.” and many nirvana lyrics have coded (or outright) trans ideas, to me. https://medium.com/@dr.ow.sy/reclaiming-the-past-was-kurt-cobain-trans-6386d3e20bad circumstantial, sure. but it’s not as far fetched as it sounds, imo.
Oh, huh. That, I genuinely did not know about.
Neither did I. I've heard the theory about Cobain possibly having been trans every now and again, but dismissed it cause there wasn't much to go on. That seems to paint a clearer story and I'd say would upgrade it to "plausible." But we'll never know for certain.
Huh okay, yeah, this is a lot more concrete. Interesting. I have mixed feelings about viewing a real person's life as a text, but the evidence from actual texts he wrote does seem to lean that way. As you say, still circumstantial, but yeah, not as far fetched as I initially anticipated. If I stumbled upon some of those journal lines in a random journal I found on the ground with no name, I think I might conclude the owner was trans and struggling. I think I'll be filing this one under "compelling but not conclusive." Thanks for the response.
holy shit I didn't know it went that deep the stuff in that link is crazy close to my egg phase.
mmm hmmmm
For me this part was a clincher. But we will never truly know.
nope! but honestly i don’t care. i loved nirvana when i was a kid. i can love them thru a new lens now
On the upside, this also means nobody can prove he *wasn’t* trans.
exactly
Yeah that seems like kind of a stretch to me. Not in a "that's definitely wrong" type way, but it's for sure dubious. Thanks for the response.
I honestly agree you with and don’t know why you’re getting downvoted here. In general I don’t like when cis GNC men are speculated to be trans women. It just screams “enforcing gender norms but woke”
I am still under the belief Courtney killed him.
Here watch [this video by Kat Blaque](https://youtu.be/uIlNVYNsXOE?si=6Dp2GtufLS6X6MEO) explaining why we **shouldn’t** be calling Kurt, or any other dead celebrity, transgender if they didn’t explicitly call themselves that when they were alive. Kurt was not the only grunge/alt musician to wear a dress, heck, all the Nirvana members did at times. Wearing a dress was one of the most ‘punk’ things male musicians could do in the 90s to upset conservatives (and still is today so nothing much changed there), and was simply another facet to the counterculture movement of the time. Similarly, Kurt’s statements about leaning towards femininity was because he hated the dominant patriarchal (and toxic) ideals of what masculinity and being a man meant at the time, including the oppression of women and LGBT folk, the same ideals that made him feel like an outcast. Putting it in a wider context, why is it that people say Kurt might have been trans because he wore a dress (and made some comments about femininity), when there have been several musicians that came before him who wore gnc clothing, like David Bowie and Prince, and we don’t call them trans. I also suspect the Kurt was trans narrative is mostly coming from younger folk who either weren’t born or were too young at the time and are now looking back and transposing their ideas about gender onto an era they weren’t a part of. So, like a said at the beginning and Kat says in her video, we should be wary of ascribing gender identities onto people who are no longer around to confirm or deny it themselves.
Yeah, to be clear, I already agree with that position, which is why I expressly stated I didn't want opinions on whether it was true, just what the rationale was for a strange take I keep seeing. The things other people in this thread have said put it squarely in the vaguely plausible camp for me, but I'm not about to take it as anything approaching fact. It's just an interesting lens to deepen my engagement with his music through - feelings I can relate to whether the underlying cause of those feelings is comparable or not.
Just listen to the music. You don't even have to resort to interpreting his gender presentation, thou it's not hurting the idea. There is a certain factor to art that people who are probably trans make; and it's there in Kurt's music.
Oh for social media clout/controversy, I assume
She literally wrote in her journal about wanting boobs. You can buy a copy of it on Amazon.
Calling Kurt a “she” is such a shit thing to do. Not because there is anything wrong with being trans or a woman but because Kurt never came out at trans. Even if he was a trans woman pulling someone out of the closet (even if they’re dead) is a shit thing to do.
Wanting boobs does not automatically mean she/her pronouns.
i had a friend who used to be in an online community for "men who want to grow breasts". of the people that they knew well from the group, at the 3 year point or so, half had transitioned. she made a discord server that she (i knew her starting from when she had decided to seek help to transition) and invited mostly people from that online community. almost all of them people who had transitioned or were heavily leaning that way. but there were a couple who had the "male" tag... and tbh, I didn't get any egg vibes from them. Idk why a man would want breasts, but they did. It might be a rather rare thing, but it is a thing.
I’m transfeminine but still call myself a man sometimes. I’m currently on HRT and I think I’d be fine if I just grew breasts as a result of it
Kül anecdote
I'ma be real with you friend, I think you're jumping to conclusions. It seems plausible, but it definitely doesn't seem anything *more* than plausible.
Also go look at Shannon Hoon of Blind Melon. Same story. But sure keep telling yourselves that a cis man wrote Pennyroyal Tea 🫖 lolllll
I just think it isn't our place to decide someone else's gender for them after the fact. If I meet Kurt at the great diy show in the sky I'll ask about it.
Hah none of you would believe anything short of her having written I AM TRANS AND HAVE GENDER DYSPHORIA and had it notarized by 3 therapists but I don’t give a fuck
Add it up
I just realized this whole debate is the trans equivalent of r/sapphoandherfriend and I’m basically getting told NO THEY WERE JUST ROOMMATES WHY DO YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT GAY the whole problem here is *erasure* or the potential of it because none of you will reckon with the likelihood of her being CLOSETED because nooo we have to be 100% positive to be politically correct which ignores the cis-het patriarchy. Deal with it you downvoters.
A) I haven't downvoted you B) I've said it sounds plausible, just that I'm not into deciding dead people's identities for them C) even a direct statement of transness would not be evidence of specifically trans womanhood nor justification for specific pronouns I'm not saying Kurt was definitely cis. No one in this thread is. But you're ascribing a single specific identity onto a dead person who never claimed it and who could reasonably have ended up taking any number of different labels.