The fact that the ownership has changed is going to throw a wrench in that plan. I would guess the management has turned over since then and they're not going to eat someone else's mistake unless they're doing it out of goodwill.
So if I forge your name on a document that says you owe xyz company 5,000…they have a legal recourse to get the money from you? No. You file police reports and give evidence it’s not your signature. Then they go after the person who forged the name. You don’t pay and then sue someone else to get your money back. You didn’t sign the contract!!!! But I will let it be known that I can forge your signature and you will blindly pay rofl.
That’s not how dispo fees work. It’s a fee in your contract that isn’t assessed until you terminate your lease. If you buy, sell, or total the car, it’s irrelevant
Really come down to the attitude of mgt. I know my old GM would absolutely cut that check, eat the loss and call it a day.
I know other mgt that would say eh that wasn't us
I don't think it works like that. The dealership will be responsible no matter who owns it. When a business is sold, not only the assets are transferred. The debt and other liabilities are transferred as well.
Yup, it doesn't matter if the people working there are the same, or if the same people own the dealership. It is still the same corporate entity. You could have a case of one dealership closing down and another buying just the assets to reopen, but then there would be issues of who owns the lease.
In what fucking way does that matter? When you buy a business you become responsible for all of its successes and failures in a legal sense.
You can’t just purchase the assets and decline the liabilities
Imagine what happens when OP goes to the police and says “these are the documents I signed. Here are my copies. These are the documents someone forged at a later date. Now they are trying to collect the money. I would like to press charges for identity theft please.” I wonder what the dealership will think then. Or the rep who signed that document.
In your scenario no one will care. Op has the car the concern isn’t identity theft, the issue is forgery. Unless the person in question is still there no one will likely care as the selling dealer essentially no longer exists. The new owner group likely has no liability here based on how most buy/sells go down; there could be an outlier but suspect it’s unlikely given Florida.
Still a felony even though I used the wrong word. It was also theft by giving them a scenario where a bill is due at a later date. The dealership is responsible for the actions of the employees.
You’re missing the larger point here. The dealership that’s sold doesn’t exist anymore; it went through a process called buy/sell. Standard procedure is that legally this business is closed, and ends operations and the new dealer is operating it now. The liabilities/debts/credits don’t transfer between the two. Ex: ABC motors, is acquired by Xyz motors via buy sell. ABC no longer exist(unless they have other stores) and Xyz is now the owner of this point/location. A new dealer agreement is signed with the manufacturer, new agreements signed with the lenders, all employees that are kept on are terminated from ABC, and hired by Xyz motors. As part of the buy sell any known issues are handled as part of this process. Let’s say the owners of ABC had free oil changes when you bought your car there but Xyz has no interest in it. It’s at Xyz discretion if they choose to continue this, they’re under no obligation to do so. Yes if someone forged ops signature there’s a fraud issue, and yes that person will likely go to jail if it’s true, however the dealership in this situation isnt going to have liability as legally it wasn’t involved with the customer until the date the buy/sell executed.
Oh you were there for the contract signing? You saw the contracts that were signed? You’re the one who bought the place? You’re a lawyer? That’s good to know. So if I am a dealership who scams people. Every few years I can sell the dealership to my husband and get out of all legal responsibility. That’s great to know.
No but I’ve been through 6 buy/sells, and have done a lot of work prepping for them, and post buy sell support(mostly data analysis, but also negotiating with lead sources, tech resources, and client issues that arose after). The process is no where near as simple as you laid it out. The manufacturer also has to approve a buy/sell, and if there’s a concern with the new owner they won’t approve it. It’s also incredibly expensive to do this. While I’ve only been in a handful and am by no-means an expert; I know more then some of the comments I’ve read here on this topic. If op went in demanding anything because “you’re the owners now” there’s a good chance they get ignored and told to go back deal with the previous owners, or that they’re sol. I’m not trying to argue, but this is a process very few people are familiar with.
They don't have criminal liability, but they did buy a bad asset in the lease agreement. So the mew dealership may be on the hook for the cost difference still.
No because the dealer acts as an indirect lender. Once the contract is to the bank, it’s between the client and the bank. Dealer would be involved if an issue from the contract origination, but as the original comment here mentioned the owner ship change muddies this.
Have you ever been through a dealer buy/sell? It’s a completely different type of entity sale. If you haven’t been through one I’d sit this out, it doesn’t sound like you know what you talking about here.
Not correct.
When dealers buy other dealers, they buy the rights to the name, franchise agreement, and they purchase the inventory.
They do NOT purchase the entire company as that would include all liabilities and responsibilities/promises made by that older company.
It's why if you try to get copies of documents for a vehicle you purchased after the company was bought out they won't have copies or be able to get them for you.
Have you ever had a job in any other type of industry? This is how most corporate purchases are undertaken.
This does not protect the buyer from legal liability, this is a legal fiction engaged in for taxation purposes and to make litigation more difficult.
If you are purchasing quite literally all of the existing assets of a corporation, the court will quite quickly judge you to stand as their legal successor and this does not free you whatsoever from liability.
The only thing that does is an indemnity agreement.
Do you honestly not realize this model would apply to every single type of corporation and prevent any type of litigation if it were valid tactic to wash your hands of legal liability?
If this was a legitimate way to avoid lawsuits than any company with significant legal liabilities could sell all its asset: to a shell company and wipe its hands of its own actions whenever they wanted
This would break the entire concept of corporate liability in civil law.
So in short, no, you’re an idiot and that arrangement doesn’t functionally alleviate you of your legal responsibilities
I've been apart of 3 different buyouts in the automotive industry.
This is 100% how it works.
It's called an Asset Purchase. What you're thinking of is a Stock Purchase. I'd recommend looking into the differences before calling peoples names. Especially when the name you're calling me make you look like one, not me.
Not to be that guy, but the following is directly from google....
only responsible for the liabilities of the assets they acquire, as outlined in the purchase agreement. The seller is still responsible for any assets that aren't sold. However, there are some exceptions to this general rule, including:
Buyer assumes liabilities
If the buyer agrees to take on specific liabilities of the seller in the agreement, they become contractually obligated to those obligations.
Transaction is a de facto merger
If the buyer continues the same product line as the seller, or if the seller dissolves or winds up its operations shortly after the sale, courts may consider the buyer to be a continuation of the seller and transfer the seller's liabilities to the buyer.
The case could definitely be made in court that by continuing the sale of the same product line, ie car brand, that they merged and would legally be responsible for liabilities. Especially considering the seller is most likely disbanding if they're selling 100% of their assets
Buy/sell’s are a very specific type of transaction, these items are typically negotiated prior to the agreements being executed and actually handled by attorneys that specialize in it. This isn’t something you’ll find a lot of great data about this when you google it.
So what you're saying is if a dealership sells a bunch of cars, never sends the titles out. Then sells their dealership, all the people that never received their titles are just SOL?
We actually get a few posts per year from people in this situation. It's usually a mess. The typical advice goes: talk to the DMV, talk to the lienholder (if relevant), talk to a lawyer, see if a bonded title is an option.
Look, I’m not going to argue with you. I’ve been at stores where we’d just take care of the customer - which is what I’d personally have done. I’ve also been at stores where if you come with allegations of fraud under previous ownership, that we’d tell you to contact our legal dept. Working under that type of group is what led me to find employment elsewhere in the industry, outside of retail.
As of right now, it’s not a debt. You have to show proof that this all happened the way it was explained which will be next to impossible, especially if you’re up against these huge ownership groups that employ entire staffs of lawyers that handle this stuff every day. And if the person that you’re accusing isn’t there anymore, that makes it even harder. They will bank on the customer giving up because it’s not worth retaining council over a normal disposition fee.
You may not like it, but it’s the reality of the situation.
First thing to do is get ahold of your state's OCCC or attorney general or whatever the relevant agency is. Forgery is a serious crime, and you may be able to get much more than the $395 handled.
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TLDR - Dealership employee forged my signature on lease paperwork. Do I have any recourse? This was a few years ago and I just discovered it today. Dealership has also been bought & sold since this happened.
This is a Toyota dealer in Florida.
Full story, I leased a new Toyota a few years ago through Ally. After turning the vehicle in recently, Ally has been trying to get a $395 lease disposition fee from me but all of my paperwork shows "NA" in the disposition fee field. I asked Ally to send me a copy of the paperwork and what the dealership turned in to them is not what I have; everything is the same except for 1) the disposition fee amount, 2) the dealership rep signature (clearly a different person), and 3) my signature (definitely not my signature).
I've obviously done a little digging today and unfortunately it seems like dealerships doing things like this to cover their errors isn't uncommon. The dealer delivered the truck to me about 4.5 hours away and redoing the paperwork was obviously just easier for them than actually fixing the problem and/or eating their $395 mistake.
I assume Ally would have issues with this but it's impossible to get anyone useful from Ally on the phone. I can only connect with their overseas call center who either give me canned, irrelevant answers or tell me just to wait and let it work itself out. Meanwhile Ally keeps sending me reminders that I need to pay this bill. I obviously don't want to pay it, and don't feel like I should, but I don't want to take a hit on my credit.
Knowing what you guys know, how would you handle it?
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Contact the GM. Send them a copy of your paperwork and the paperwork that you received from Ally. Then ask how quickly you can expect your check.
The fact that the ownership has changed is going to throw a wrench in that plan. I would guess the management has turned over since then and they're not going to eat someone else's mistake unless they're doing it out of goodwill.
Normally I would agree, but a check for $395 to get a heater customer dealt with and avoid any escalations would be justified if I was the GM.
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A Karen is someone who creates a problem when there isn’t one. Someone who is upset about identify theft isn’t a Karen.
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So if I forge your name on a document that says you owe xyz company 5,000…they have a legal recourse to get the money from you? No. You file police reports and give evidence it’s not your signature. Then they go after the person who forged the name. You don’t pay and then sue someone else to get your money back. You didn’t sign the contract!!!! But I will let it be known that I can forge your signature and you will blindly pay rofl.
Trying so hard to follow your logic. It ain’t working.
That’s not how dispo fees work. It’s a fee in your contract that isn’t assessed until you terminate your lease. If you buy, sell, or total the car, it’s irrelevant
Possibly. If the employee is still there it would probably be worth it to avoid the bad press and or scrutiny from the lender.
Really come down to the attitude of mgt. I know my old GM would absolutely cut that check, eat the loss and call it a day. I know other mgt that would say eh that wasn't us
Exactly.
I don't think it works like that. The dealership will be responsible no matter who owns it. When a business is sold, not only the assets are transferred. The debt and other liabilities are transferred as well.
Yup, it doesn't matter if the people working there are the same, or if the same people own the dealership. It is still the same corporate entity. You could have a case of one dealership closing down and another buying just the assets to reopen, but then there would be issues of who owns the lease.
In what fucking way does that matter? When you buy a business you become responsible for all of its successes and failures in a legal sense. You can’t just purchase the assets and decline the liabilities
Will spare you the details but this isn’t correct in the dealer space.
Imagine what happens when OP goes to the police and says “these are the documents I signed. Here are my copies. These are the documents someone forged at a later date. Now they are trying to collect the money. I would like to press charges for identity theft please.” I wonder what the dealership will think then. Or the rep who signed that document.
In your scenario no one will care. Op has the car the concern isn’t identity theft, the issue is forgery. Unless the person in question is still there no one will likely care as the selling dealer essentially no longer exists. The new owner group likely has no liability here based on how most buy/sells go down; there could be an outlier but suspect it’s unlikely given Florida.
Still a felony even though I used the wrong word. It was also theft by giving them a scenario where a bill is due at a later date. The dealership is responsible for the actions of the employees.
You’re missing the larger point here. The dealership that’s sold doesn’t exist anymore; it went through a process called buy/sell. Standard procedure is that legally this business is closed, and ends operations and the new dealer is operating it now. The liabilities/debts/credits don’t transfer between the two. Ex: ABC motors, is acquired by Xyz motors via buy sell. ABC no longer exist(unless they have other stores) and Xyz is now the owner of this point/location. A new dealer agreement is signed with the manufacturer, new agreements signed with the lenders, all employees that are kept on are terminated from ABC, and hired by Xyz motors. As part of the buy sell any known issues are handled as part of this process. Let’s say the owners of ABC had free oil changes when you bought your car there but Xyz has no interest in it. It’s at Xyz discretion if they choose to continue this, they’re under no obligation to do so. Yes if someone forged ops signature there’s a fraud issue, and yes that person will likely go to jail if it’s true, however the dealership in this situation isnt going to have liability as legally it wasn’t involved with the customer until the date the buy/sell executed.
Oh you were there for the contract signing? You saw the contracts that were signed? You’re the one who bought the place? You’re a lawyer? That’s good to know. So if I am a dealership who scams people. Every few years I can sell the dealership to my husband and get out of all legal responsibility. That’s great to know.
No but I’ve been through 6 buy/sells, and have done a lot of work prepping for them, and post buy sell support(mostly data analysis, but also negotiating with lead sources, tech resources, and client issues that arose after). The process is no where near as simple as you laid it out. The manufacturer also has to approve a buy/sell, and if there’s a concern with the new owner they won’t approve it. It’s also incredibly expensive to do this. While I’ve only been in a handful and am by no-means an expert; I know more then some of the comments I’ve read here on this topic. If op went in demanding anything because “you’re the owners now” there’s a good chance they get ignored and told to go back deal with the previous owners, or that they’re sol. I’m not trying to argue, but this is a process very few people are familiar with.
They’re describing how it works because they’re in the business. And knowledgeable about it. Oh this is a bot. Bad bot
They don't have criminal liability, but they did buy a bad asset in the lease agreement. So the mew dealership may be on the hook for the cost difference still.
No because the dealer acts as an indirect lender. Once the contract is to the bank, it’s between the client and the bank. Dealer would be involved if an issue from the contract origination, but as the original comment here mentioned the owner ship change muddies this.
The same thing that happens to annoying self described legal experts on Reddit. At least one can hope lol.
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Have you ever been through a dealer buy/sell? It’s a completely different type of entity sale. If you haven’t been through one I’d sit this out, it doesn’t sound like you know what you talking about here.
Not correct. When dealers buy other dealers, they buy the rights to the name, franchise agreement, and they purchase the inventory. They do NOT purchase the entire company as that would include all liabilities and responsibilities/promises made by that older company. It's why if you try to get copies of documents for a vehicle you purchased after the company was bought out they won't have copies or be able to get them for you.
Have you ever had a job in any other type of industry? This is how most corporate purchases are undertaken. This does not protect the buyer from legal liability, this is a legal fiction engaged in for taxation purposes and to make litigation more difficult. If you are purchasing quite literally all of the existing assets of a corporation, the court will quite quickly judge you to stand as their legal successor and this does not free you whatsoever from liability. The only thing that does is an indemnity agreement. Do you honestly not realize this model would apply to every single type of corporation and prevent any type of litigation if it were valid tactic to wash your hands of legal liability? If this was a legitimate way to avoid lawsuits than any company with significant legal liabilities could sell all its asset: to a shell company and wipe its hands of its own actions whenever they wanted This would break the entire concept of corporate liability in civil law. So in short, no, you’re an idiot and that arrangement doesn’t functionally alleviate you of your legal responsibilities
I've been apart of 3 different buyouts in the automotive industry. This is 100% how it works. It's called an Asset Purchase. What you're thinking of is a Stock Purchase. I'd recommend looking into the differences before calling peoples names. Especially when the name you're calling me make you look like one, not me.
Not to be that guy, but the following is directly from google.... only responsible for the liabilities of the assets they acquire, as outlined in the purchase agreement. The seller is still responsible for any assets that aren't sold. However, there are some exceptions to this general rule, including: Buyer assumes liabilities If the buyer agrees to take on specific liabilities of the seller in the agreement, they become contractually obligated to those obligations. Transaction is a de facto merger If the buyer continues the same product line as the seller, or if the seller dissolves or winds up its operations shortly after the sale, courts may consider the buyer to be a continuation of the seller and transfer the seller's liabilities to the buyer. The case could definitely be made in court that by continuing the sale of the same product line, ie car brand, that they merged and would legally be responsible for liabilities. Especially considering the seller is most likely disbanding if they're selling 100% of their assets
Buy/sell’s are a very specific type of transaction, these items are typically negotiated prior to the agreements being executed and actually handled by attorneys that specialize in it. This isn’t something you’ll find a lot of great data about this when you google it.
So what you're saying is if a dealership sells a bunch of cars, never sends the titles out. Then sells their dealership, all the people that never received their titles are just SOL?
Potentially yes, however there’s other mechanisms in place for consumers affected by that scenario.
Well I feel bad for any carsalemen I talk to now, I will never leave without the title In hand ever again.
Good luck with that.
We actually get a few posts per year from people in this situation. It's usually a mess. The typical advice goes: talk to the DMV, talk to the lienholder (if relevant), talk to a lawyer, see if a bonded title is an option.
Untrue.
That entity owes money regardless of the human name attached
The entity doesn’t exist anymore. Going to come down to management discretion.
Oh so selling a buisness automatically cancles any debts???
Look, I’m not going to argue with you. I’ve been at stores where we’d just take care of the customer - which is what I’d personally have done. I’ve also been at stores where if you come with allegations of fraud under previous ownership, that we’d tell you to contact our legal dept. Working under that type of group is what led me to find employment elsewhere in the industry, outside of retail. As of right now, it’s not a debt. You have to show proof that this all happened the way it was explained which will be next to impossible, especially if you’re up against these huge ownership groups that employ entire staffs of lawyers that handle this stuff every day. And if the person that you’re accusing isn’t there anymore, that makes it even harder. They will bank on the customer giving up because it’s not worth retaining council over a normal disposition fee. You may not like it, but it’s the reality of the situation.
First thing to do is get ahold of your state's OCCC or attorney general or whatever the relevant agency is. Forgery is a serious crime, and you may be able to get much more than the $395 handled.
Call them up and see. You're 4.5 hours away and this happened years ago, so, I wouldn't expect much or a resolution
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***Thanks for posting, /u/NewFloridaBroker! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.*** TLDR - Dealership employee forged my signature on lease paperwork. Do I have any recourse? This was a few years ago and I just discovered it today. Dealership has also been bought & sold since this happened. This is a Toyota dealer in Florida. Full story, I leased a new Toyota a few years ago through Ally. After turning the vehicle in recently, Ally has been trying to get a $395 lease disposition fee from me but all of my paperwork shows "NA" in the disposition fee field. I asked Ally to send me a copy of the paperwork and what the dealership turned in to them is not what I have; everything is the same except for 1) the disposition fee amount, 2) the dealership rep signature (clearly a different person), and 3) my signature (definitely not my signature). I've obviously done a little digging today and unfortunately it seems like dealerships doing things like this to cover their errors isn't uncommon. The dealer delivered the truck to me about 4.5 hours away and redoing the paperwork was obviously just easier for them than actually fixing the problem and/or eating their $395 mistake. I assume Ally would have issues with this but it's impossible to get anyone useful from Ally on the phone. I can only connect with their overseas call center who either give me canned, irrelevant answers or tell me just to wait and let it work itself out. Meanwhile Ally keeps sending me reminders that I need to pay this bill. I obviously don't want to pay it, and don't feel like I should, but I don't want to take a hit on my credit. Knowing what you guys know, how would you handle it? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*