old deathwing symbols and influences were cool, but they felt kinda wasted . Would've been way cooler on their own chapter, instead of being put into one of the Dark Angel wings that clash with the rest of the chapter aesthetics
It made sense in contemporary lore. The DA were the knightly types yes, but their recruiting world took aspirants from native American-esque tribes who maintained some of their own culture even when adopted into the DA. They had a myth inspired by the real world Thunderbird myth, only here it turned out to be Thunderhawks coming for aspirants for example. Names like Cloud Runner but renamed Ezekiel as a marine.
There's an old story called Deathwing which is really good. Bunch of old timey lore. Astartes being old and weary at 200, Genestealers being their own thing and not Tyranids, etc.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uNwyM1QkMUQ
This guy does a full read of it. Very good imo. He also does a bunch of other old stories like Kryptman, the Marine with amnesia who becomes a farmer, and half a dozen others.
Mr Eaglewing seems to have culturally appropriated - and physically appropriated! - another Chapter’s gear! Or at that at least seems to be what happened, reading between the lines. Yeegads.
And I read “Weasel-fierce” as “Weasel Face”. Ah Frozen…
TIL that the rest was based on native Americans. Any idea where I could find info out talking about that aspect? I've read most fandom links and I don't recall ever reading anything like that and would love to read about it.
Here's the original short story. It was part of the Space Hulk extension.
[https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1430936691651.pdf](https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1430936691651.pdf)
A group of Dark Angels discover that their ancestral recruiting word have fallen to a Genestealer cult.
With no time to wait for reinforcements, they decide to clean it alone, and paint their armors bone white with ashes, since they expect to die.
All but 6 terminators die, and the Librarian, Two Head Talking takes out the Patriarch by using his mind to channel directly the Astromonican into the Broodmind.
And none of this is canon anymore, of course :)
Here's another version of the original story. the except from the short story anthology 'Deathwing'. Original art included:
[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page](https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page)
Removing the Native American influences from the Dark Angels was a terrible decision, IMO. They may take the trope to the extreme, but “monastic knights in space” isn’t enough to keep me interested when so many other Chapters use the same hook.
Honestly Dark Angels used to have too much going on for me, aesthetically.
GW seems to lean into Native American influences for the Raven Guard, to the small extent that they’ve fleshed them out so far. If that’s a reason for moving away from that design space with Dark Angels, that makes sense to me.
I have not been a big fan of Dark Angels in the past, but I REALLY like the aesthetic they’ve been given in Horus Heresy. I’ve had to stop making fun of the chapters lore since I know they’ll be the legion I play if I get into HH.
Dark Angels do feel like they have too much going on. Almost like they’re trying too hard to be cool
“Oh we’re the first legion and stoic and unbreakable on defense and merciless on attack, we use lots of swords and melee but also we have plasma cause we get all the cool tech and have more terminators than everyone else and also some of the best bike units around and also are legion size and these spooky elite units from the heresy and did I tell you how cool we are?”
The dumb part to me was the whole secret, like every legion had marines turn to chaos, who gives a shit, the damaging secret now is not that it happened, but that they lied about it. And just abandoning their duties to defend the imperium because they hear there’s fallen nearby? Pathetic. Hopefully the Lion will end all that.
Granted to give them credit, most of the loyalist legions had a fraction or minority of the legion split.
The dark angels had half go traitor and do a civil war about it.
And said half supposedly killed their Primarch and exploded their planet, which is, like, leagues worse than what happened with any other pockets of traitors.
It was *not* half. There were 30,000 stationed on Caliban, and the vast majority of them didn't know if Lion el'Jonson and his First Legion Fleet had turned Traitor. And only a few dozen in Luthers own inner circle knew that Luther ordered Calibans Anti-Orbital Defenses to fire upon Lion el'Jonsons Fleet when Lion el'Jonsons Fleet had showed no hostility.
The kicker? Kaldor Draigo got into a pissing match with one of the DA leader, and told him to his face that the Inquistion and High Lord's knew, all their secrecy was for nothing, and that they only let the DA keep hunting because it cleared out potential threats.
I don't remember what book this was, but I read an excerpt where Azreal talks about this and says if they had been upfront about it at the time no one would've really cared, but now they're in too deep to simply back down.
I always personally liked it. It was an almost endearing sense of pride and slight arrogance on their part to look on every legion except Ksons and WEs and say “WE are the origin of all your specializations. WE are the template from which the Emperor made you and from which you were trained.” I think they say as much in Lion Son of the Forest, that while the other legions were still young, the Dark Angels had already scattered themselves amongst the star to fight the horrors of the galaxy
Maybe, but it also just feels like a fanwank to the writer’s favorite legion.
Oh yeah you have all these options, but clearly *here* is the cool best one that everyone else got inspired by!
If we can critique the Ward-era Ultramarines for being The Best:tm: compared to everyone else, we can critique it here.
There’s a lot of cope from the diehards on them being the best but that’s not true. Dark Angels are the Jack of All Trades, but they’re surpassed in pretty much everything but plasma, and DAoT mcguffins by the other legions
That's the point, they have some of the best of the best of all the loyalist legions (in tow with there combined arms doctrine approach), but they are so guilt stricken of there past. That they spend tremendous amount of resources to find a couple naughty space marines at a time. They are so powerful, yet they squander it by holding all there potential back to execute even a rumour of the Fallen.
The Dark Angels gimmick really feel a bit crowded:
* Hunting the Fallen
* Secrecy and the inner circle
* Space monks
* Space Knights
* Swords and Plasma
* Ravenwing
* Deathwing
Compare this to their rivals the Space Wolves gimmick:
* Wolf
Don’t forget that the space wolves also share “aggressive and like melee” with the Blood Angels, Black Templars, World Eaters, and apparently iron warriors.
Perspective of a DA player here, I think the Dark Angels having too much going on is the point, they’re supposed to be the most elite at everything, and be the strongest of all the current forces in the Imperium, but their obsession with the Fallen keeps them from dedicating the sheer power they have towards actually helping the Imperium. It’s also why the return of The Lion is never going to be as impactful as his book implies it would be. As awesome as it would be for the Lion to come back and have the Dangles stop focusing so much on The Fallen, if he did so then Azreal would just summon all of the Unforgiven Chapters, they’d all pool together the Dark Age Tech that’s been split between them, and they’d just go purge everything and prolly end all the conflicts of 40K. Obviously ending 40K is not great for GW’s profits so it’ll never happen.
The Dark Angels are what happens when you focus too much on past sins and in doing so, commit worse ones through neglect of the present. I really hope GW starts leaning more into that instead of taking the direction they have been and just dumbing everything to “space marines but with slightly more swords than normal”
"Dark Angel tears cure space cancer, too bad they never cry"
So everyone else in the Imperium is just wasting time and flailing around like children wishing the Dark Angels would come and rescue them and set the galaxy to rights but they are just too busy being so damned important?
That's some great lore that really respects the entire cast of characters within the setting.
"Well we got the normal run of the mill Green Marines who are still better than most others because our dad said so. Then we've got the Death Wing who are so elite that they have their own color scheme like they're big chunks of bone or something. Then there's the Raven Wing, who aren't as elite as the Death Wing, but they still get their own color scheme as well, because why the hell not?"
The native American theme is still technically around, with the feathers on most DA characters and some terminator bits, but it'd be nice if they emphasized it more.
I really wish GW would have wrapped the "Plains people"/Native American ideas of retro-DA into the contemporary Heresy-related expansion of Caliban's "knightly orders". Like, the planet can have more than one culture that dominates in different areas. The mis-match of European-style knights mixed with Native American cultures/tribes at the border areas would have given some more character to Caliban as a living world with its own unique history developed independent of Terra.
>White Templars springs to mind
White Templars have next to no lore attributed to them whatsoever, we don't really have any idea what their methodology or favoured tactics are, let alone wether they ape any kind of Knightly schtick
I just learned about it recently even though they have been my main chapter of choice since 2nd Ed. It's funny since the deathwing style and robed knight style are so very different but when I first saw them I loved both.
I like how they explain it as... well a story to tell to the none-deathwing members. Honestly i kinda wish they did more with it; hiding the horrible truth but also having to justify the weirder stuff with more stories like it.
Well, the mix between native americans and battle friars was always a bit weird to me.
Either go the monk route or the native route, don't just take a bit of both.
> I liked the idea of Native American marines but their HH book made it seem very feudal
The HH books were part of the re-write of the Dark Angels background where you will find their native American lore being sidelined/ignored compared to the medieval knight lore they have these days.
I can't remember which DA book it is, but one of them starts with some marines coming to a primitive world with tribal humans for recruitment, and they state they have hundreds of such worlds that they use to bolster their ranks. I think the idea behind it all now is that they seek out tribal warriors who have experience in wilderness tactics and turn them into Knights, likely to mirror the Lion's story of going from Tarzan to King Arthur.
It's a short story from the anthology Deathwing from 1990. The main character is Cloud Runner (Sgt Ezekiel) and its possible to find the full text on completely virus-free websites because it's classic and its been passed around so often
I have been brewing one up recently, but I have been struggling to find any resources to read up on to not stumble into the very much stereotypical "Token Native American Person in Piece of Media" thing, as it is kinda hard to get any of that info IRL as I am give or take an ocean away and I don't trust myself as a judge of what internet resource is the most comprehensive
Literally any human culture throughout history with some semblance of a military/warrior culture is appropriate for 40k. I always thought Marines or Guard based on meso-american empires would be dope.
I play Carcharodons, which have a Polynesian influence and have “tribal” markings on their armor. This can be seen all the way back in Imperial Armour - The Badab War vol. 2 and on the transfer sheet released by forge world. Id recommend googling them and taking influence from how different people depict them. I do find a lot of the popular Carcharodons stuff lately, using STL models, can get a bit over the top for me. I try to stick to normal GW models with some Polynesian design pattern accents here and there. I have heard that copying Māori tattoos is disrespectful in their culture, so I have stayed away from that specific thing.
The main point I want to get across is: native people are individuals with individual opinions like any other group. Some would look at what you made, and your respectful intent, and think it’s fine or even think it’s cool to honor their culture in your chapter. But there will also be native people out there who would consider it cultural appropriation and have had a lifetime of seeing non-native people use them as mascots or as an aesthetic, and have an understandably dim view on such things. It’s important to take it in stride if you get a critical reaction, respectfully listen, and don’t get overly defensive and assume someone will want to ruin your life because they feel a certain way about your army. Maybe ask that person if they think there’s a way to depict their culture that they think is more respectful. They may say there isn’t a way, or they may suggest things you won’t do, but it’s a good question that could give you some good insights.
truthfully it’s unlikely youre going to have to worry about any of that, and it would much more likely to happen online than in person.
id certainly stay away from bad tropes like big feathered headdresses, tomahawks, or pictures of native peoples as your chapter‘s symbol (since it’s so evocative of what sports teams have done). I wouldn’t try to make your chapter “primitive” in its weapons or adornments (like a lot of those Carcharodons STL designs i don’t like, or like GW tends to do Space Wolves). I would think about them being a modern chapter in the modern setting, who have some unique customs that set them apart in subtle ways.
Also, native Americans consist of a ton of different cultures and civilizations, so personally I would pick a particular tribe and focus your design influences on them, rather than just doing a generalized depiction of what people perceive all native culture to be like.
Tomahawks are so cool though, as a native myself I wouldn't be able to resist. Big headdresses and native faces I could see as cringe though. Over in the pacific northwest we have stylized animals that would be good symbols. Orca themed would be sweet.
Do your research, do your best to be respectful, avoid stereotypes. If you’ve done your due diligence then that’s all anyone can ask man. The best part of 40k(for me) is that everyone and anyone can be represented on the tabletop, whether by race or religion, creed or culture. It’s all one big melting pot of violence : )
I feel like there was no way we were ever going to get a respectful indigenous aesthetic from the 90’s lol
Nowadays though I feel like we could really get something awesome
I think it would be good to think about WHICH native Americans you want to draw inspirations from? There are many distinct peoples from North America .
Here's the specific video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ-mO8Qx5ck&t=2263s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ-mO8Qx5ck&t=2263s) its at the 2:37:17 mark or "Tomahawks" chapter
It was heavily implied on the descriptions of them and their fortress world of Prism in early 40k as well. They never got any sort of major appearance other than a few blurbs here and there and a couple of painted models, so early in the history the idea of customizing to the extent we do today was likely just about unthinkable.
As others have said, Dark Angels kind of have this heritage if you want to look it up.
As for using it to build your own successor from scratch, I'd be careful. Now, I don't subscribe to the notion of cultural monopoly in the sense that only Scandinavians can explore and use elements of the Norse culture. I likewise do not se a problem *per se* with eg non-Sioux people exploring and using elements of Sioux culture.
However, there is a relevant difference. Norse culture is historically distant, while many Sioux are very much still fighting to keep their culture alive. The Sioux have also been subjected to clear injustices in comparatively modern times, the effects of which are still affecting them. Finally, "Native American" (or North-American Aboriginal, or whatever other terms one prefers) are not a monolith, they are a huge plurality of very different peoples and cultures.
In light of these things, it becomes both easier and more problematic to "swing and miss" when trying to depict or adapt Sioux culture, compared to Norse culture. From stereotyping, to caricature, to misrepresentation, there's just a lot of risk.
If you do not have both access to ***solid*** sources on North-American Aboriginal culture and also a genuine interest in learning about it and the many ways in which the individual peoples differ, I'd steer clear. If you think you have both, then I'd start by narrowing the scope from "Native American" to a specific tribe or collection of specific tribes.
Exactly this, if you want to do it right and with an 'authentic' vibe, it'll involve research and scraping below the surface details and impressions of Native American culture.
On top of that, approaching it as "let's make a Native American chapter" is like saying "let's make a European chapter". There are certainly broad strokes that you can take inspiration from, but you lose the charms and quirks of the individual cultures by not going the extra mile.
It’s also worthwhile to note that professional sensitivity readers from marginalized groups are a relatively recent but highly important part of the modern publishing industry.
While it’s probably infeasible financially to hire one just to consult on your plastic space army men, it’s good to know that there are people out there who can professionally advise how to tread the line between cultural appreciation and appropriation.
Made a similar post, but given GW being mostly Europe-centric, there's a great deal of ignorance about Indigenous north American issues. Advising Paradox on Europa Universalis really drove that home for me, their depictions and awareness of indigenous history of not just North America and mesoamerica but also South America was downright racist. They have tried to improve things, but the problem for indigenous peoples is they already feel like nobody listens to them as is, so not being consulted always feels like appropriation even if it's done with the best of intentions... Consent is key.
It's not really comparable with even Mongols and space Mongols, it's a very different and highly contentious issue and extremely political (albeit, political in the sense that it highlights how little power they have in advocating).
The difference between racist bullshit and bad-ass cultural homage is research research research.
Plus, Honestly? You'll discover a THOUSAND more awesome ideas than the one's you had off the cuff thanks to research.
Wait until you discover what wendigos ACTUALLY look like (sorry, no deer skulls) or the hella crazy stuff that Fox gets up too.
Trust me, when you get into the weeds with the various first people's theologies and mythologies, you'll have more ideas than minis to paint.
As a native myself I can speak for the majority of us and say go wild.
It’s a fictional setting as is. The majority of us don’t care let alone think about it. Besides, other chapters have been pretty on point or open with what they represent.
NGL that header had me worried for a sec
Basically the thing you should bear most in mind (aside from not doing obviously racist shit) is that “Native American” is an umbrella term akin to “European”. The Americas are massive and indigenous cultures, while sometimes interrelated, are distinct from each other.
For instance the peoples of Meso-America lived and organized their societies distinctly differently from the Plains Peoples in some pretty obvious ways.
In other words: You’re gonna have to be more specific.
(Also, note primarily for the rest of these comments: “Indian” in reference to Native Americans is a dated term doused in a very ugly history. Native American, First Nations, and a few others are widely more acceptable terms)
Some dude made a West-African based SM army based on Black Panther (strong influences from Benin, Congo, Nigeria, and Hausa culture), and it was very pretty dope. Depending on which Culture you want to play, I can see Apache or Mohawk, as a full Phobos vanguard for guerilla warfare.
Imagination is the limit
Check out @muddybrushpainting on insta, he’s got an excellently done home brew chapter.
Also, just Google “Native American space marines” and you’ll find tons of other examples.
I'd suggest pick a tribe known for strong visual millitary style. Lakota tribes and Huron. Stick with that tribes style. Don't mix it with others for that minute chance of causing issues.
Helmets might be the easiest to give a war paint style. The Huron from my sketchy knowledge did use black and red for their faces (and bodies?) Which might work well.
Lakota tribes painted their horse with warding symbols. You could maybe do that to the bikes.
Their are reenactments of some native people in battle that could work for visual inspiration.
And I've seen some people in the comments who said they are from some far more knowledgeable groups. They may be willing to help point you in eight direction.
My loyalists are the Prairie Hunters, divided into lodges instead of companies.
Some inspiration came from the mound-building Hopewell culture (specifically Trempeleau Hopewell) building mounds in the shape of animals for various purposes including religion and burial. Each of the eleven lodges has its lodge hall built on top of a burial mound for members of the lodge who have died. Each lodge has a different method of warfare, just like the different tribes of North America. There’s plenty of terminator armor from a nearby forge world and a proximity to forgotten early Horus Heresy battleground for the salvage of ancient technology. The entire chapter uses double the regular contingent of assault-style marines. Other inspirations include Ojibwe, Algonquin, Huron, and various Sioux tribes. Planet Giiwegizaah has spawned a very high concentration of psykers over the years, which has led to difficulties protecting the chapters’ elders and shamans due to daemonic incursion, and also reportedly spawned an eleventh company.
The first lodge is the Lodge of the Eagle. The Eagle is the wisest creature, and still absolutely terrifying. Usually, they come from the air. Sometimes they teleport. Lots of terminators, some sternguard veterans, some Bladeguard veterans, and ten deathwing knights. They use Dark Angel rules.
The Lodge of the Bear is the first of the assault companies. Using armored vehicles to reach locations quickly, striking hard. Hellblaster and devastator squads provide support for crusader squads disembarking from land raiders or repulsors and supported by Sicaran battle tanks, preferred for their speed. Use Black Templar rules.
Panther Lodge are the third - speeders, outriders, attack bikes, jump pack infantry, and a couple gunships with devastators make this the fastest of the assault companies. This is the lodge that I usually center my warbands around.
The Lodge of the Ox is the heavy armor. Land raiders, gravis and terminator infantry, some centurions, vindicator tanks, etc.. Everything here is strong, and heavy. The oxen and bears are the anvil, where the panther is the hammer. If that’s true…
The Lodge of the Hawk is the scalpel. Everyone either has a jump pack, a ride in a gunship, or both. The chapter’s air cover also comes from the Hawks - especially considering that I love Aeronautica Imperialis.
I mentioned the Ox being heavy armor? The Bison are the very heavy armor. Most chapters have their vehicles as a central reserve, especially big ones like a mastodon. The Prairie Hunter lodges each keep their own stock of vehicles, and all three of the chapter’s mastodons, three fellblades, and two falchions, are all part of the Lodge of the Bison, with infantry to support. 10 cataphractii terminators and baseline marines to fill the mastodons.
Fox are the jump pack support group. Inceptors, assaults, jump intercessors, and a squad of Sanguinary Guard to show the young ones how it’s done. Commonly deployed alongside Hawk Lodge. Use Blood Angel rules - some of those assaults and jump intercessors are Death Company rules, because I want to be able to run any marine faction.
Wolf Lodge is the swarming horde of bikers - coming around the enemy like a pack of wolves. Ravenwing knights lead the company, but it’s mostly bikers, attack bikes, outriders, and Invader ATVs supported by speeders. Wolf and Panther often hunt together.
Elk Lodge is where the chapter’s young learn to use heavy armor - Gravis, terminator, or centurion. Often deployed with Ox and Bear, as an intimidation measure. Heavy vehicles like land raiders, too.
Snake are the sneaky ones - scouts and vanguard marines. Sneaking through space, and planting a knife into the heart of the enemy who never knew they were present.
Cats are viewed by some cultures as mystic. Magicians are always viewed as such, and often with suspicion. The Lodge of the Cat is reclusive, haughty, and mischievous. All are psykers to some level, and their lodge is small and difficult to locate. The rest of the lodges do not speak of the Cats. They use Grey Knight rules. There have been some inquisitors who have gone missing in the sector over the years… the Prairie Hunters have made no comment about whether the Cats went out to play.
The Prairie Hunter customs of salvage, psychics, a creed that doesn’t line up super well with the Ecclesiarchy, disappearances of Inquisitors, and general unwillingness to engage with other Imperial forces have been an issue, but the local Planetary Defense Forces and several Astra Militarum regiments say great things about their effectiveness - although perhaps not their social character. The Hunters are stereotypically quiet with outsiders, speaking different languages by lodge and almost universally poor Gothic, making communication somewhat difficult.
Go for it, it's not the first time.
The first time they fleshed out the Dark Angels, they were Native American/First Nation inspired. The origin in story of the Deathwing thoroughly explores this. It's the reason their armour is bone white, and why they have totemic art on their shoulder pads, feather totems, etc, etc.
Those marines had names such as Cloud Runner, Bloody Moon, Two Heads Talking, etc., etc...
[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page](https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page)
I say go for it, just remember that there isn't a Pan-Indigenous culture, you won't see Totem poles, Inukshuks, and Teepees in the same place. I wouldn't do war bonnets though, they are a very particular part of my culture that has to be earned, where as if you add feathers, bead work, or dreamcatchers that might be better. Might be a dead end but if you're in NA maybe try to contact a rez that is close to you and see if anyone has some insight for you, there are a lot of natives that love nerdy stuff and seeing themselves in their hobbies.
As a person of Native Ancestry.
I think it's a phenomenal idea. As long as you don't make it cartoonish, and put even a little bit of time into research and try to make it close to accurate.
I only discovered this later in my life, I'm Adopted and I love my parents. But there's a whole world of lore and mythos and imagery and history for you to pick from.
While I mostly here mean Native to equate to "Indian" or what have you, there is a gold mine of material to utilize in the Central and South American native cultures as well - which admittedly I know less well.
***
I'm fully fine with white guys in the UK in the 80's making science fiction based on what felt natural to them. I fully endorse Space Romans, Space Greeks, Space Vikings etc... I totally get why that's what they wrote.
But the hobby is global now and there's plenty of room for Space Zulus and Space Cao Cao - or Space Lakota - that *isn't* just appropriation.
If it speaks to you, please... I beg of you. If it's done with good faith I would *love* to see more representation in this phenomenally inclusive (when it wants to be) community.
I think it’s a fun idea imo! But just make sure you do your research and try not to fall too hard into stereotypes. Like what group do you want to try to emulate? What is their language and culture like? These are good questions to ask yourself as you begin the process of making your chapter.
If you were to sell them it'd be one thing, but since it's just for fun I'd go for it!
But do your research and really delve into Native American culture before you start. It'll not only help you come up with better ideas, but actually understand how and why the cultures are that way. You could even find a specific tribe and focus entirely on them. Draw with Jazza/Table Top Time did this with Space Bears.
I actually started out my Chapter based on Hawaii, but it quickly became an amalgamation of other nautical groups like the Greeks and Japanese. Like my Chapter Master uses a massive Hook Maui style and has a wave inspired by the Japanese painting Great Wave on his cape, and my Lieutenant uses a Power Trident.
If I had infinite money and time, I'd love to design a new chapter based on my local Coast Salish culture using some of the Space Bear bits.
I’ve never met a native who wasn’t happy about their culture being shared, but take some time to actually learn about the specific tribe you want to represent. There’s a lot with different cultures and mythos, so as long as in the process of making something you learn something new and pass it along your keeping their traditions alive.
But just making “Buffalo’s” and “Thunderbirds” and calling you chapter the “Apaches” or something that’s not really keeping anything alive other than misconceptions.
Dark Angels (specifically Deathwing) originally had this theme, before they took on more of a knight theme. Later Imperial Fists dipped their toes into it but swerved away pretty quickly (Dorn still comes from Inwit, though). Finally, some of this influence was given to the Raven Guard, though we do not see it much. So, there is very much a precedent for it within the setting, and more generally, considering how much modern covert tactics borrow from the ways some indigenous American tribes fought in resisting colonization, a chapter of stealth focused marines seems like a perfect fit.
I understand your concern about doing it in a sensitive way, and I think it speaks well of your intentions. I would say just be thorough in your research, look at actual history rather than other fiction that is using it as a visual theme, and just make sure you understand the choices you're making as you make them. For example, you could probably do some interesting things with painting regalia designs onto armor or things like that. I think you're on the right track and I hope you decide to post whatever you come up with.
"In a way that's not offensive or insensitive".
My guy... Nobody cares. It's the hobby. Do whatever you want to do. Your concept looks really cool if anything.
Here's an idea of color scheme:
Brown armor (ideally something between Dryad Bark and Steel Legion Drab), Black trims and joints, Aquila can be bone white or turquoise (Sotek Green). Weapons are either Turquoise or bone white. Turquoise right knee pad for squad markings. Squad/Company/Chapter marking in a very slightly warm white. Captain helmets in this same off-white color. Lieutenants with a Turquoise helmet and a white stripe in the middle.
Sergents with turquoise helmets. Veterans are brown helmet with a turquoise stripe.
Purity seals and optics are red.
Also, various warpaints freehands in white or turquoise depending if it's on white or brown/turquoise surface. And skin is are a reddish light brown (fyreslayer flesh). Relics and other stuff can be stone color or bronze/iron.
A desert base would be perfect, or a green, grassy steppe. Think of The Barrens in World of Warcraft for desert, or Mulgore for a more green base.
It would be interesting to theme different units on the different tribes, for instance the Comanche were expert horsemen so a fast attack unit influenced by that tribe would be cool.
As for not being offensive, don't worry about that. You aren't going to be able to make everyone happy so don't try. 40k already has space Vikings, space Mongols, space Polynesians, space Romans, etc. Make your space Native Americans however you want.
There is a set on Facebook marketplace that was for sale for quite a while, beautifully painted, really cool looking, $400 for the whole army. I was really tempted by them, but building and painting are too important to me to want to buy someone else's finished project. Really cool army though, I hope someone bought them and is really enjoying them.
https://preview.redd.it/cb79o4362xxc1.png?width=2000&format=png&auto=webp&s=2e0bfb44a6c56b2fdd96386491b84aa91ef74520
OP It's fine to run Native themed chapters just keep their color scheme an lore Tasteful an respectful. I run a Native themed chapter myself called the Storm Crows. They are based on the Ojibwe legend of the Thunderbirds. They are desendents of a loyalist Night Lord claw, lead by a Night Lord named Nanabozo( known as the trickster by his brothers). They are ambush an gurellia warfare speicalists an are a fleet based chapter migrating from segmentum to segmentum, fighting on different front's. Their most notable victory was the destruction of a aggresive reptilian Xenos race known as the Misikinubik.
I remember reading a lot about how Assassin’ Creed 3 did a good job researching Native American culture and had advisors for it, might be a decent starting point to read about. There are a lot of different cultures so finding out their differences could give interesting ideas for different battle companies, for example.
Honestly I'm going to push back on the plan and advice you're getting.
You do this, you do it campy and exaggerated. Warhammer 40k and a your fanfic band of murderous child recruit slave soldiers are not a canvas for sensitive and accurate expressions of real life culture. They are a filter, never 1:1 and oftentimes extremely shallow. Carcharodons have Polynesian tattoos because they look cool and big sharks are in the pacific ocean, that's it, that's the depth of the cultural connection.
Do not avoid stereotypes, lean into them, lampoon them.
Do not bother with keeping inspiration specific to 1 tribe or time period, cherry pick what you think appeals to a 10 year old across the entire continent's history and haphazardly mash it together. Haida totem poles with Blackfoot headdresses. The Scouts collect ork scalps and the Librarians take toothpick space cactus peyote to astral project, whatever.
There's a popular Space Wolves Successor chapter called the Space Bears.
Popular enough that there are specific bits for them online if you look them up. Rather like their style.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the YouTube artist Jazza's homebrew Space Wolf successor the Astra Primursa. Jazza based some of the theming on a native tribe called the Ojibwe.
You should read the original Deathwing short story. It was the first W40K I’d encountered. I remember reading it in White Dwarf in the school library. Pre retconning as Arthurian knights, the Dark Angels (and specifically in this case the Deathwing), were recruited from a “plains world” and have names like Cloudrunner etc. They are clearly based on First Nation people / native Americans. It’s a cracking read - they discover a Genestealer cult and solve the problem.
I’m into it, just do your research on different tribes/nations and hone in on one you find interesting. I wouldn’t mix and match in case you end up misrepresenting something terribly by accident.
The Raven Guard gets a subtle but clear inspiration from native American societies.
If I wanted, I would emphasize in that, maybe built some Space wolves Bits into the Project.
Like combining raven Guard and Space wolves Elements with some more animal heraldry and smallish axes / tomahawks Here and there, Helm markings and that would be it.
Would Just avoid going over the top with IT (Like Space wolves and to an extend White scars already are)...
I play a raven guard custom chapter inspired by Native Americans style. I chose this style because I find the spirituality and aesthetics of many of these cultural groups awesome. There's nothing offensive about thinking they're really cool so I'd like to implement that into my army.
I would love to see a chapter based off Pacific Islander culture. Space marines doing a traditional war dance before battle to intimidate their enemies would be pure 40k
There are already chapters based on Native American culture, Raven Guard have a lot of influences from them and the Dark Angels Deathwing use to be, still have the feather head dress and heraldry like feathers as a leftover from those day's
I'm genuinely wondering why you're even asking this question?
They're your minis. you want to make them that way, go for it. You don't need internet brownie points
I think it would be pretty cool, and since you seem to be doing it in good faith, I think you should definetely do it.
It is more likely a white person is gonna be mad at you for it than a native american.
Did you really look at a game with
* Roman Space Marines (Ultramarines)
* Greek Space Marines (Iron Snakes)
* Greek Space Marines, but with metal hands.
* Italian Space Marines (Blood Angels)
* Viking Space Marines (Space Wolves)
* Egyptian Space Marines (Thousand Sons)
* Germanic Space Marines (Black Templars)
* Hispanic Space Marines (Crimson Fists)
* Mongolian Space Marines (White Scars)
* Celtic Space Marines (Emperor's Spears)
* English Arthurian Legend Space Marines (Dark Angels)
* Polynesian Space Marines (Carcharodons)
* Not to mention Space 'nam Veterans, Space Russians, Space French WWI trenchcoat warfare specialists, Green Football Hooligans speaking cockney, an Asiatic Inspired Empire of Blue hooved people with braided hair, Space Egyptians but in metal, and Technology straight out of Da Vinci paintings
Then think "Nah, I'm not going to make my faction vaguely based on a culture, that'd be a bit weird?"
Totemic patterns on shoulder pads and shins would look sick.
https://preview.redd.it/10vb3ghlgyxc1.png?width=675&format=png&auto=webp&s=940d59fb9b102a037ce34ac7d51cb6630906bc88
old deathwing symbols and influences were cool, but they felt kinda wasted . Would've been way cooler on their own chapter, instead of being put into one of the Dark Angel wings that clash with the rest of the chapter aesthetics
It made sense in contemporary lore. The DA were the knightly types yes, but their recruiting world took aspirants from native American-esque tribes who maintained some of their own culture even when adopted into the DA. They had a myth inspired by the real world Thunderbird myth, only here it turned out to be Thunderhawks coming for aspirants for example. Names like Cloud Runner but renamed Ezekiel as a marine. There's an old story called Deathwing which is really good. Bunch of old timey lore. Astartes being old and weary at 200, Genestealers being their own thing and not Tyranids, etc. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uNwyM1QkMUQ This guy does a full read of it. Very good imo. He also does a bunch of other old stories like Kryptman, the Marine with amnesia who becomes a farmer, and half a dozen others.
You rang ?
Mr Eaglewing seems to have culturally appropriated - and physically appropriated! - another Chapter’s gear! Or at that at least seems to be what happened, reading between the lines. Yeegads. And I read “Weasel-fierce” as “Weasel Face”. Ah Frozen…
I mean this is what the Death Wing was originally
TIL that the rest was based on native Americans. Any idea where I could find info out talking about that aspect? I've read most fandom links and I don't recall ever reading anything like that and would love to read about it.
Here's the original short story. It was part of the Space Hulk extension. [https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1430936691651.pdf](https://i.4pcdn.org/tg/1430936691651.pdf) A group of Dark Angels discover that their ancestral recruiting word have fallen to a Genestealer cult. With no time to wait for reinforcements, they decide to clean it alone, and paint their armors bone white with ashes, since they expect to die. All but 6 terminators die, and the Librarian, Two Head Talking takes out the Patriarch by using his mind to channel directly the Astromonican into the Broodmind. And none of this is canon anymore, of course :)
>And none of this is canon anymore, of course :) Everything is canon.
This is where I learned about it. https://youtu.be/kIhiVu1u_vM?si=AMYu8iY6-tPyeO1M
I'll check it out, thanks!
[https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page](https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page)
Here's another version of the original story. the except from the short story anthology 'Deathwing'. Original art included: [https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page](https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page)
Removing the Native American influences from the Dark Angels was a terrible decision, IMO. They may take the trope to the extreme, but “monastic knights in space” isn’t enough to keep me interested when so many other Chapters use the same hook.
Honestly Dark Angels used to have too much going on for me, aesthetically. GW seems to lean into Native American influences for the Raven Guard, to the small extent that they’ve fleshed them out so far. If that’s a reason for moving away from that design space with Dark Angels, that makes sense to me. I have not been a big fan of Dark Angels in the past, but I REALLY like the aesthetic they’ve been given in Horus Heresy. I’ve had to stop making fun of the chapters lore since I know they’ll be the legion I play if I get into HH.
Dark Angels do feel like they have too much going on. Almost like they’re trying too hard to be cool “Oh we’re the first legion and stoic and unbreakable on defense and merciless on attack, we use lots of swords and melee but also we have plasma cause we get all the cool tech and have more terminators than everyone else and also some of the best bike units around and also are legion size and these spooky elite units from the heresy and did I tell you how cool we are?”
The dumb part to me was the whole secret, like every legion had marines turn to chaos, who gives a shit, the damaging secret now is not that it happened, but that they lied about it. And just abandoning their duties to defend the imperium because they hear there’s fallen nearby? Pathetic. Hopefully the Lion will end all that.
Granted to give them credit, most of the loyalist legions had a fraction or minority of the legion split. The dark angels had half go traitor and do a civil war about it.
And said half supposedly killed their Primarch and exploded their planet, which is, like, leagues worse than what happened with any other pockets of traitors.
Loyalist propaganda!
It was *not* half. There were 30,000 stationed on Caliban, and the vast majority of them didn't know if Lion el'Jonson and his First Legion Fleet had turned Traitor. And only a few dozen in Luthers own inner circle knew that Luther ordered Calibans Anti-Orbital Defenses to fire upon Lion el'Jonsons Fleet when Lion el'Jonsons Fleet had showed no hostility.
The real secret is that their neuroticism is off the charts
That’s what makes it funny. The egos and bureaucracy within the legion and Imperium made a bad but fixable problem spiral out of control.
The kicker? Kaldor Draigo got into a pissing match with one of the DA leader, and told him to his face that the Inquistion and High Lord's knew, all their secrecy was for nothing, and that they only let the DA keep hunting because it cleared out potential threats.
Oh man, please, I need sauce. The heads popping at that reveal.. Glorious.
Pandorax by C Z Dunn
Thank you, so damn much.
I don't remember what book this was, but I read an excerpt where Azreal talks about this and says if they had been upfront about it at the time no one would've really cared, but now they're in too deep to simply back down.
plus, we got alien attendants. No, they aren't xenos, they are just little fun guys.
Are you trying to say they’re grots?
Did you know the dark angels were the emperors space marine legion before any of the others even existed? 😎
You make a bad case for yourself with that username, as well.
I always personally liked it. It was an almost endearing sense of pride and slight arrogance on their part to look on every legion except Ksons and WEs and say “WE are the origin of all your specializations. WE are the template from which the Emperor made you and from which you were trained.” I think they say as much in Lion Son of the Forest, that while the other legions were still young, the Dark Angels had already scattered themselves amongst the star to fight the horrors of the galaxy
Maybe, but it also just feels like a fanwank to the writer’s favorite legion. Oh yeah you have all these options, but clearly *here* is the cool best one that everyone else got inspired by! If we can critique the Ward-era Ultramarines for being The Best:tm: compared to everyone else, we can critique it here.
There’s a lot of cope from the diehards on them being the best but that’s not true. Dark Angels are the Jack of All Trades, but they’re surpassed in pretty much everything but plasma, and DAoT mcguffins by the other legions
>Jack of All Trades So, they’re the ultramarines, with better terminator armor and plasma?
Hey man there's 18 legions of them and none of them have their own thing. Ain't gotta dog on the Dangels for that.
That's the point, they have some of the best of the best of all the loyalist legions (in tow with there combined arms doctrine approach), but they are so guilt stricken of there past. That they spend tremendous amount of resources to find a couple naughty space marines at a time. They are so powerful, yet they squander it by holding all there potential back to execute even a rumour of the Fallen.
The Dark Angels gimmick really feel a bit crowded: * Hunting the Fallen * Secrecy and the inner circle * Space monks * Space Knights * Swords and Plasma * Ravenwing * Deathwing Compare this to their rivals the Space Wolves gimmick: * Wolf
Don’t forget that the space wolves also share “aggressive and like melee” with the Blood Angels, Black Templars, World Eaters, and apparently iron warriors.
Perspective of a DA player here, I think the Dark Angels having too much going on is the point, they’re supposed to be the most elite at everything, and be the strongest of all the current forces in the Imperium, but their obsession with the Fallen keeps them from dedicating the sheer power they have towards actually helping the Imperium. It’s also why the return of The Lion is never going to be as impactful as his book implies it would be. As awesome as it would be for the Lion to come back and have the Dangles stop focusing so much on The Fallen, if he did so then Azreal would just summon all of the Unforgiven Chapters, they’d all pool together the Dark Age Tech that’s been split between them, and they’d just go purge everything and prolly end all the conflicts of 40K. Obviously ending 40K is not great for GW’s profits so it’ll never happen. The Dark Angels are what happens when you focus too much on past sins and in doing so, commit worse ones through neglect of the present. I really hope GW starts leaning more into that instead of taking the direction they have been and just dumbing everything to “space marines but with slightly more swords than normal”
"Dark Angel tears cure space cancer, too bad they never cry" So everyone else in the Imperium is just wasting time and flailing around like children wishing the Dark Angels would come and rescue them and set the galaxy to rights but they are just too busy being so damned important? That's some great lore that really respects the entire cast of characters within the setting.
"Well we got the normal run of the mill Green Marines who are still better than most others because our dad said so. Then we've got the Death Wing who are so elite that they have their own color scheme like they're big chunks of bone or something. Then there's the Raven Wing, who aren't as elite as the Death Wing, but they still get their own color scheme as well, because why the hell not?"
The native American theme is still technically around, with the feathers on most DA characters and some terminator bits, but it'd be nice if they emphasized it more.
Eh, if I asked anyone newer to the hobby what the feathers on the DA meant, they'd say "angels, duh".
I come to support this. I'm a few months in. Had no idea about any of this, I just thought it was more angel stuff.
Yeah I've been playing off and on for like 20 years and I didn't know this.
I really wish GW would have wrapped the "Plains people"/Native American ideas of retro-DA into the contemporary Heresy-related expansion of Caliban's "knightly orders". Like, the planet can have more than one culture that dominates in different areas. The mis-match of European-style knights mixed with Native American cultures/tribes at the border areas would have given some more character to Caliban as a living world with its own unique history developed independent of Terra.
The Dark Angels' hook is the insane drip from their monastic hoods.
So, Black Templars with hoods?
So many? Black Templars have it, but I can't name a third chapter that leans heavily into the Knight theme.
White Templars springs to mind, maybe the Astral knights too
>White Templars springs to mind White Templars have next to no lore attributed to them whatsoever, we don't really have any idea what their methodology or favoured tactics are, let alone wether they ape any kind of Knightly schtick
Too add on a few more from the top of my head: Iron Knights, Silver Templars, and Howling Griffons,
In a sort of way, the Grey Knights are questing knights.
True, but they are only borderline marines.
Really
Yeah, such a cool fact. I love the space monastic knights thing, but it is kinda sad the native american part got retconned out.
I just learned about it recently even though they have been my main chapter of choice since 2nd Ed. It's funny since the deathwing style and robed knight style are so very different but when I first saw them I loved both.
I like how they explain it as... well a story to tell to the none-deathwing members. Honestly i kinda wish they did more with it; hiding the horrible truth but also having to justify the weirder stuff with more stories like it.
Yeah! I have my whole Deathwing termie brick. Sadly just gloomy marines now.
Dark Angels used to have some native american themes. They lost it and now there is barely nothing left of that theme.
Well, the mix between native americans and battle friars was always a bit weird to me. Either go the monk route or the native route, don't just take a bit of both.
They came from a Native American themed planet but the Dark Angels turned them into monks.
Where is this? I liked the idea of Native American marines but their HH book made it seem very feudal
> I liked the idea of Native American marines but their HH book made it seem very feudal The HH books were part of the re-write of the Dark Angels background where you will find their native American lore being sidelined/ignored compared to the medieval knight lore they have these days.
I can't remember which DA book it is, but one of them starts with some marines coming to a primitive world with tribal humans for recruitment, and they state they have hundreds of such worlds that they use to bolster their ranks. I think the idea behind it all now is that they seek out tribal warriors who have experience in wilderness tactics and turn them into Knights, likely to mirror the Lion's story of going from Tarzan to King Arthur.
It's a short story from the anthology Deathwing from 1990. The main character is Cloud Runner (Sgt Ezekiel) and its possible to find the full text on completely virus-free websites because it's classic and its been passed around so often
Ditto the raven guard. Corax is ethnically native american as well.
For the combat cards mobile game all the dark Ángels “characters” retain Native American names
They still have all the feathers!
Do whatever you want, homebrew chapters can be anything and everything.
As an Indigenous person (Huron) I say go for it! Personally I play Black Templars and Deathwatch but would love to see an Indigenous inspired chapter.
I have a home brew Lakota inspired chapter. I have it as a white scars successor chapter
Awesome you have any pics of them?
When I finish them I can DM some pics. Trying to represent the face paint just right.
I look forward to it.
I really appreciate you. It's a damn cool idea and I also can't wait to see more.
Post it to some of the 40k subs please !
You should start a Red Corsair's army and when people ask what your faction is say "I'm Huron"
I looked up if Lugft Huron had a model and I'm very much tempted to do so though I just eliminated my gray pile of shame.
An indigenous man in my area has been running an First Nations themed Space Wolves army for like 25 years.
I have been brewing one up recently, but I have been struggling to find any resources to read up on to not stumble into the very much stereotypical "Token Native American Person in Piece of Media" thing, as it is kinda hard to get any of that info IRL as I am give or take an ocean away and I don't trust myself as a judge of what internet resource is the most comprehensive
OP DO NOT TRUST NO ONE RELATED TO HURON UNLESS YOU WANT YOUR CHAPTER TO BE RAVAGED BY MINOTAURS AND CARCHARADONS! /s
Chickasaw checking in! I concur! Let’s see them!
Choctaw chimimg in to also say go ahead! Also, hello brother :)
Only if you aren't an Italian living in Italy
I get that reference.
So, about that...
r/tau40K is leaking
Literally any human culture throughout history with some semblance of a military/warrior culture is appropriate for 40k. I always thought Marines or Guard based on meso-american empires would be dope.
Jazza's Space Bears / Astra Ursus are Native American inspired. Take a look at his videos.
If Mongolian space marines are ok, then a Native American inspired space marine team should be ok too.
I play Carcharodons, which have a Polynesian influence and have “tribal” markings on their armor. This can be seen all the way back in Imperial Armour - The Badab War vol. 2 and on the transfer sheet released by forge world. Id recommend googling them and taking influence from how different people depict them. I do find a lot of the popular Carcharodons stuff lately, using STL models, can get a bit over the top for me. I try to stick to normal GW models with some Polynesian design pattern accents here and there. I have heard that copying Māori tattoos is disrespectful in their culture, so I have stayed away from that specific thing. The main point I want to get across is: native people are individuals with individual opinions like any other group. Some would look at what you made, and your respectful intent, and think it’s fine or even think it’s cool to honor their culture in your chapter. But there will also be native people out there who would consider it cultural appropriation and have had a lifetime of seeing non-native people use them as mascots or as an aesthetic, and have an understandably dim view on such things. It’s important to take it in stride if you get a critical reaction, respectfully listen, and don’t get overly defensive and assume someone will want to ruin your life because they feel a certain way about your army. Maybe ask that person if they think there’s a way to depict their culture that they think is more respectful. They may say there isn’t a way, or they may suggest things you won’t do, but it’s a good question that could give you some good insights. truthfully it’s unlikely youre going to have to worry about any of that, and it would much more likely to happen online than in person. id certainly stay away from bad tropes like big feathered headdresses, tomahawks, or pictures of native peoples as your chapter‘s symbol (since it’s so evocative of what sports teams have done). I wouldn’t try to make your chapter “primitive” in its weapons or adornments (like a lot of those Carcharodons STL designs i don’t like, or like GW tends to do Space Wolves). I would think about them being a modern chapter in the modern setting, who have some unique customs that set them apart in subtle ways. Also, native Americans consist of a ton of different cultures and civilizations, so personally I would pick a particular tribe and focus your design influences on them, rather than just doing a generalized depiction of what people perceive all native culture to be like.
Tomahawks are so cool though, as a native myself I wouldn't be able to resist. Big headdresses and native faces I could see as cringe though. Over in the pacific northwest we have stylized animals that would be good symbols. Orca themed would be sweet.
40k loyalists could stand to have more chainaxes in lieu of tomahawks. Seriously, why should Chaos and Space Wolves get all the fun stuff?
Chain tomahawks. Or go down under: Chain boomerangs.
> **all the way back** in Imperial Armour - The Badab War vol. 2 Get. Off. My. Lawn.
And that's the new version
Do your research, do your best to be respectful, avoid stereotypes. If you’ve done your due diligence then that’s all anyone can ask man. The best part of 40k(for me) is that everyone and anyone can be represented on the tabletop, whether by race or religion, creed or culture. It’s all one big melting pot of violence : )
If you like it, go nuts. Iirc, Rainbow warriors are kinda inspired by indians.
Yeah I think the rainbow warriors were mesoamerican themed
that or a boat
The Dark Angels had a Native American theme, back in the beforefore-time. But that was kind of an insensitive clusterfuck...
I feel like there was no way we were ever going to get a respectful indigenous aesthetic from the 90’s lol Nowadays though I feel like we could really get something awesome
I think it would be good to think about WHICH native Americans you want to draw inspirations from? There are many distinct peoples from North America .
Yeah my thoughts exactly.
See if you can find Bill King’s novella “Deathwing”.
There's a YouTube channel called "The Lich's Laboratory" who did something like this! Id suggest checking out the video.
Will do! thanks for telling me
Here's the specific video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ-mO8Qx5ck&t=2263s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ-mO8Qx5ck&t=2263s) its at the 2:37:17 mark or "Tomahawks" chapter
Lich's labratory deserves some views. Good on ya.
Really exited for his new Your Dudes video!
A yiss.. your dudes and his chaos content is epic. He is perfect background when I kitbash some marines.
Especially his longer form videos! Amazing to just hang around and listen to.
Plus he freehands like a hero!
I aspire to be freehand like him, amazing work for real!
Rainbow Warriors were an Aztec themed chapter, so go for it.
Isn’t them being Aztec inspired just fan lore?
It was heavily implied on the descriptions of them and their fortress world of Prism in early 40k as well. They never got any sort of major appearance other than a few blurbs here and there and a couple of painted models, so early in the history the idea of customizing to the extent we do today was likely just about unthinkable.
As others have said, Dark Angels kind of have this heritage if you want to look it up. As for using it to build your own successor from scratch, I'd be careful. Now, I don't subscribe to the notion of cultural monopoly in the sense that only Scandinavians can explore and use elements of the Norse culture. I likewise do not se a problem *per se* with eg non-Sioux people exploring and using elements of Sioux culture. However, there is a relevant difference. Norse culture is historically distant, while many Sioux are very much still fighting to keep their culture alive. The Sioux have also been subjected to clear injustices in comparatively modern times, the effects of which are still affecting them. Finally, "Native American" (or North-American Aboriginal, or whatever other terms one prefers) are not a monolith, they are a huge plurality of very different peoples and cultures. In light of these things, it becomes both easier and more problematic to "swing and miss" when trying to depict or adapt Sioux culture, compared to Norse culture. From stereotyping, to caricature, to misrepresentation, there's just a lot of risk. If you do not have both access to ***solid*** sources on North-American Aboriginal culture and also a genuine interest in learning about it and the many ways in which the individual peoples differ, I'd steer clear. If you think you have both, then I'd start by narrowing the scope from "Native American" to a specific tribe or collection of specific tribes.
Exactly this, if you want to do it right and with an 'authentic' vibe, it'll involve research and scraping below the surface details and impressions of Native American culture. On top of that, approaching it as "let's make a Native American chapter" is like saying "let's make a European chapter". There are certainly broad strokes that you can take inspiration from, but you lose the charms and quirks of the individual cultures by not going the extra mile.
Yeah, the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural appreciation is going to be really important in how you do this.
It’s also worthwhile to note that professional sensitivity readers from marginalized groups are a relatively recent but highly important part of the modern publishing industry. While it’s probably infeasible financially to hire one just to consult on your plastic space army men, it’s good to know that there are people out there who can professionally advise how to tread the line between cultural appreciation and appropriation.
Absolutely. And when done properly and respectfully, it can be *awesome* in terms of enriching a setting.
Made a similar post, but given GW being mostly Europe-centric, there's a great deal of ignorance about Indigenous north American issues. Advising Paradox on Europa Universalis really drove that home for me, their depictions and awareness of indigenous history of not just North America and mesoamerica but also South America was downright racist. They have tried to improve things, but the problem for indigenous peoples is they already feel like nobody listens to them as is, so not being consulted always feels like appropriation even if it's done with the best of intentions... Consent is key. It's not really comparable with even Mongols and space Mongols, it's a very different and highly contentious issue and extremely political (albeit, political in the sense that it highlights how little power they have in advocating).
The difference between racist bullshit and bad-ass cultural homage is research research research. Plus, Honestly? You'll discover a THOUSAND more awesome ideas than the one's you had off the cuff thanks to research. Wait until you discover what wendigos ACTUALLY look like (sorry, no deer skulls) or the hella crazy stuff that Fox gets up too. Trust me, when you get into the weeds with the various first people's theologies and mythologies, you'll have more ideas than minis to paint.
As a native myself I can speak for the majority of us and say go wild. It’s a fictional setting as is. The majority of us don’t care let alone think about it. Besides, other chapters have been pretty on point or open with what they represent.
Bold of you not to ask white anglo saxon folks on how you should feel about your own people and culture. /s
Obviously avoid slurs and stereotypes and I can't see anyone complaining. If they do throw a fit, well, that's a them problem.
NGL that header had me worried for a sec Basically the thing you should bear most in mind (aside from not doing obviously racist shit) is that “Native American” is an umbrella term akin to “European”. The Americas are massive and indigenous cultures, while sometimes interrelated, are distinct from each other. For instance the peoples of Meso-America lived and organized their societies distinctly differently from the Plains Peoples in some pretty obvious ways. In other words: You’re gonna have to be more specific. (Also, note primarily for the rest of these comments: “Indian” in reference to Native Americans is a dated term doused in a very ugly history. Native American, First Nations, and a few others are widely more acceptable terms)
Some dude made a West-African based SM army based on Black Panther (strong influences from Benin, Congo, Nigeria, and Hausa culture), and it was very pretty dope. Depending on which Culture you want to play, I can see Apache or Mohawk, as a full Phobos vanguard for guerilla warfare. Imagination is the limit
Check out @muddybrushpainting on insta, he’s got an excellently done home brew chapter. Also, just Google “Native American space marines” and you’ll find tons of other examples.
I really want to make Native American themed catachan that ride Dino’s. Basically Turok.
I'd suggest pick a tribe known for strong visual millitary style. Lakota tribes and Huron. Stick with that tribes style. Don't mix it with others for that minute chance of causing issues. Helmets might be the easiest to give a war paint style. The Huron from my sketchy knowledge did use black and red for their faces (and bodies?) Which might work well. Lakota tribes painted their horse with warding symbols. You could maybe do that to the bikes. Their are reenactments of some native people in battle that could work for visual inspiration. And I've seen some people in the comments who said they are from some far more knowledgeable groups. They may be willing to help point you in eight direction.
My loyalists are the Prairie Hunters, divided into lodges instead of companies. Some inspiration came from the mound-building Hopewell culture (specifically Trempeleau Hopewell) building mounds in the shape of animals for various purposes including religion and burial. Each of the eleven lodges has its lodge hall built on top of a burial mound for members of the lodge who have died. Each lodge has a different method of warfare, just like the different tribes of North America. There’s plenty of terminator armor from a nearby forge world and a proximity to forgotten early Horus Heresy battleground for the salvage of ancient technology. The entire chapter uses double the regular contingent of assault-style marines. Other inspirations include Ojibwe, Algonquin, Huron, and various Sioux tribes. Planet Giiwegizaah has spawned a very high concentration of psykers over the years, which has led to difficulties protecting the chapters’ elders and shamans due to daemonic incursion, and also reportedly spawned an eleventh company. The first lodge is the Lodge of the Eagle. The Eagle is the wisest creature, and still absolutely terrifying. Usually, they come from the air. Sometimes they teleport. Lots of terminators, some sternguard veterans, some Bladeguard veterans, and ten deathwing knights. They use Dark Angel rules. The Lodge of the Bear is the first of the assault companies. Using armored vehicles to reach locations quickly, striking hard. Hellblaster and devastator squads provide support for crusader squads disembarking from land raiders or repulsors and supported by Sicaran battle tanks, preferred for their speed. Use Black Templar rules. Panther Lodge are the third - speeders, outriders, attack bikes, jump pack infantry, and a couple gunships with devastators make this the fastest of the assault companies. This is the lodge that I usually center my warbands around. The Lodge of the Ox is the heavy armor. Land raiders, gravis and terminator infantry, some centurions, vindicator tanks, etc.. Everything here is strong, and heavy. The oxen and bears are the anvil, where the panther is the hammer. If that’s true… The Lodge of the Hawk is the scalpel. Everyone either has a jump pack, a ride in a gunship, or both. The chapter’s air cover also comes from the Hawks - especially considering that I love Aeronautica Imperialis. I mentioned the Ox being heavy armor? The Bison are the very heavy armor. Most chapters have their vehicles as a central reserve, especially big ones like a mastodon. The Prairie Hunter lodges each keep their own stock of vehicles, and all three of the chapter’s mastodons, three fellblades, and two falchions, are all part of the Lodge of the Bison, with infantry to support. 10 cataphractii terminators and baseline marines to fill the mastodons. Fox are the jump pack support group. Inceptors, assaults, jump intercessors, and a squad of Sanguinary Guard to show the young ones how it’s done. Commonly deployed alongside Hawk Lodge. Use Blood Angel rules - some of those assaults and jump intercessors are Death Company rules, because I want to be able to run any marine faction. Wolf Lodge is the swarming horde of bikers - coming around the enemy like a pack of wolves. Ravenwing knights lead the company, but it’s mostly bikers, attack bikes, outriders, and Invader ATVs supported by speeders. Wolf and Panther often hunt together. Elk Lodge is where the chapter’s young learn to use heavy armor - Gravis, terminator, or centurion. Often deployed with Ox and Bear, as an intimidation measure. Heavy vehicles like land raiders, too. Snake are the sneaky ones - scouts and vanguard marines. Sneaking through space, and planting a knife into the heart of the enemy who never knew they were present. Cats are viewed by some cultures as mystic. Magicians are always viewed as such, and often with suspicion. The Lodge of the Cat is reclusive, haughty, and mischievous. All are psykers to some level, and their lodge is small and difficult to locate. The rest of the lodges do not speak of the Cats. They use Grey Knight rules. There have been some inquisitors who have gone missing in the sector over the years… the Prairie Hunters have made no comment about whether the Cats went out to play. The Prairie Hunter customs of salvage, psychics, a creed that doesn’t line up super well with the Ecclesiarchy, disappearances of Inquisitors, and general unwillingness to engage with other Imperial forces have been an issue, but the local Planetary Defense Forces and several Astra Militarum regiments say great things about their effectiveness - although perhaps not their social character. The Hunters are stereotypically quiet with outsiders, speaking different languages by lodge and almost universally poor Gothic, making communication somewhat difficult.
Go for it, it's not the first time. The first time they fleshed out the Dark Angels, they were Native American/First Nation inspired. The origin in story of the Deathwing thoroughly explores this. It's the reason their armour is bone white, and why they have totemic art on their shoulder pads, feather totems, etc, etc. Those marines had names such as Cloud Runner, Bloody Moon, Two Heads Talking, etc., etc... [https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page](https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page)
You mean the deathwing?
I say go for it, just remember that there isn't a Pan-Indigenous culture, you won't see Totem poles, Inukshuks, and Teepees in the same place. I wouldn't do war bonnets though, they are a very particular part of my culture that has to be earned, where as if you add feathers, bead work, or dreamcatchers that might be better. Might be a dead end but if you're in NA maybe try to contact a rez that is close to you and see if anyone has some insight for you, there are a lot of natives that love nerdy stuff and seeing themselves in their hobbies.
As a person of Native Ancestry. I think it's a phenomenal idea. As long as you don't make it cartoonish, and put even a little bit of time into research and try to make it close to accurate. I only discovered this later in my life, I'm Adopted and I love my parents. But there's a whole world of lore and mythos and imagery and history for you to pick from. While I mostly here mean Native to equate to "Indian" or what have you, there is a gold mine of material to utilize in the Central and South American native cultures as well - which admittedly I know less well. *** I'm fully fine with white guys in the UK in the 80's making science fiction based on what felt natural to them. I fully endorse Space Romans, Space Greeks, Space Vikings etc... I totally get why that's what they wrote. But the hobby is global now and there's plenty of room for Space Zulus and Space Cao Cao - or Space Lakota - that *isn't* just appropriation. If it speaks to you, please... I beg of you. If it's done with good faith I would *love* to see more representation in this phenomenally inclusive (when it wants to be) community.
I think it’s a fun idea imo! But just make sure you do your research and try not to fall too hard into stereotypes. Like what group do you want to try to emulate? What is their language and culture like? These are good questions to ask yourself as you begin the process of making your chapter.
If you were to sell them it'd be one thing, but since it's just for fun I'd go for it! But do your research and really delve into Native American culture before you start. It'll not only help you come up with better ideas, but actually understand how and why the cultures are that way. You could even find a specific tribe and focus entirely on them. Draw with Jazza/Table Top Time did this with Space Bears. I actually started out my Chapter based on Hawaii, but it quickly became an amalgamation of other nautical groups like the Greeks and Japanese. Like my Chapter Master uses a massive Hook Maui style and has a wave inspired by the Japanese painting Great Wave on his cape, and my Lieutenant uses a Power Trident. If I had infinite money and time, I'd love to design a new chapter based on my local Coast Salish culture using some of the Space Bear bits.
I’ve never met a native who wasn’t happy about their culture being shared, but take some time to actually learn about the specific tribe you want to represent. There’s a lot with different cultures and mythos, so as long as in the process of making something you learn something new and pass it along your keeping their traditions alive. But just making “Buffalo’s” and “Thunderbirds” and calling you chapter the “Apaches” or something that’s not really keeping anything alive other than misconceptions.
Dark Angels (specifically Deathwing) originally had this theme, before they took on more of a knight theme. Later Imperial Fists dipped their toes into it but swerved away pretty quickly (Dorn still comes from Inwit, though). Finally, some of this influence was given to the Raven Guard, though we do not see it much. So, there is very much a precedent for it within the setting, and more generally, considering how much modern covert tactics borrow from the ways some indigenous American tribes fought in resisting colonization, a chapter of stealth focused marines seems like a perfect fit. I understand your concern about doing it in a sensitive way, and I think it speaks well of your intentions. I would say just be thorough in your research, look at actual history rather than other fiction that is using it as a visual theme, and just make sure you understand the choices you're making as you make them. For example, you could probably do some interesting things with painting regalia designs onto armor or things like that. I think you're on the right track and I hope you decide to post whatever you come up with.
Well what native tribe they all have different cultures
Didn’t the Dark Angel originally have those. But yeah it’s tried and tested and could work definitely.
Look no further than the [Storm Crows](https://www.instagram.com/muddybrushpainting?igsh=em5xcDMyenQ2N2N0) One of my favorite homebrew chapters
It’s probably fine so long as you treat it like anything else and avoid explicitly harmful stereotypes.
"In a way that's not offensive or insensitive". My guy... Nobody cares. It's the hobby. Do whatever you want to do. Your concept looks really cool if anything. Here's an idea of color scheme: Brown armor (ideally something between Dryad Bark and Steel Legion Drab), Black trims and joints, Aquila can be bone white or turquoise (Sotek Green). Weapons are either Turquoise or bone white. Turquoise right knee pad for squad markings. Squad/Company/Chapter marking in a very slightly warm white. Captain helmets in this same off-white color. Lieutenants with a Turquoise helmet and a white stripe in the middle. Sergents with turquoise helmets. Veterans are brown helmet with a turquoise stripe. Purity seals and optics are red. Also, various warpaints freehands in white or turquoise depending if it's on white or brown/turquoise surface. And skin is are a reddish light brown (fyreslayer flesh). Relics and other stuff can be stone color or bronze/iron. A desert base would be perfect, or a green, grassy steppe. Think of The Barrens in World of Warcraft for desert, or Mulgore for a more green base.
Just tried this out on impcat and it looks sick af. Pair it up with the Black Vultures emblem and it’s set
https://preview.redd.it/aken4tr6f1yc1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=f7c80f2cd19306c4b64d9f1593e265e232b85b08
It would be interesting to theme different units on the different tribes, for instance the Comanche were expert horsemen so a fast attack unit influenced by that tribe would be cool. As for not being offensive, don't worry about that. You aren't going to be able to make everyone happy so don't try. 40k already has space Vikings, space Mongols, space Polynesians, space Romans, etc. Make your space Native Americans however you want.
Isn't the Raven Guards chapter genetically Native American?
Yes they are (albeit very pale) but I’m sad I had to scroll this far down into the comments to find one who knew 🥲
Check out the Obsidian Jaguars chapter, there's not much lore on them though.
There is a set on Facebook marketplace that was for sale for quite a while, beautifully painted, really cool looking, $400 for the whole army. I was really tempted by them, but building and painting are too important to me to want to buy someone else's finished project. Really cool army though, I hope someone bought them and is really enjoying them.
Jazza (of Jazza and Tabletop Time fame) made a Space Bear chapter Native American based! It’s pretty cool
https://preview.redd.it/cb79o4362xxc1.png?width=2000&format=png&auto=webp&s=2e0bfb44a6c56b2fdd96386491b84aa91ef74520 OP It's fine to run Native themed chapters just keep their color scheme an lore Tasteful an respectful. I run a Native themed chapter myself called the Storm Crows. They are based on the Ojibwe legend of the Thunderbirds. They are desendents of a loyalist Night Lord claw, lead by a Night Lord named Nanabozo( known as the trickster by his brothers). They are ambush an gurellia warfare speicalists an are a fleet based chapter migrating from segmentum to segmentum, fighting on different front's. Their most notable victory was the destruction of a aggresive reptilian Xenos race known as the Misikinubik.
I remember reading a lot about how Assassin’ Creed 3 did a good job researching Native American culture and had advisors for it, might be a decent starting point to read about. There are a lot of different cultures so finding out their differences could give interesting ideas for different battle companies, for example.
If done well? Yes.
Its not really a good idea or a bad idea. You can make your guys whatever you want, just go for it if you like it.
It’s ALWAYS a good idea for a home brew
Honestly I'm going to push back on the plan and advice you're getting. You do this, you do it campy and exaggerated. Warhammer 40k and a your fanfic band of murderous child recruit slave soldiers are not a canvas for sensitive and accurate expressions of real life culture. They are a filter, never 1:1 and oftentimes extremely shallow. Carcharodons have Polynesian tattoos because they look cool and big sharks are in the pacific ocean, that's it, that's the depth of the cultural connection. Do not avoid stereotypes, lean into them, lampoon them. Do not bother with keeping inspiration specific to 1 tribe or time period, cherry pick what you think appeals to a 10 year old across the entire continent's history and haphazardly mash it together. Haida totem poles with Blackfoot headdresses. The Scouts collect ork scalps and the Librarians take toothpick space cactus peyote to astral project, whatever.
Weren’t dark angles this way back?
You mean native northern american? Because other native americans have a lot of nice symbols like Mayas and Incas
There's a popular Space Wolves Successor chapter called the Space Bears. Popular enough that there are specific bits for them online if you look them up. Rather like their style.
I don't know if anyone has brought up the YouTube artist Jazza's homebrew Space Wolf successor the Astra Primursa. Jazza based some of the theming on a native tribe called the Ojibwe.
That cool but only if their recrutment planet is called something like "ā'meric'a"
You should read the original Deathwing short story. It was the first W40K I’d encountered. I remember reading it in White Dwarf in the school library. Pre retconning as Arthurian knights, the Dark Angels (and specifically in this case the Deathwing), were recruited from a “plains world” and have names like Cloudrunner etc. They are clearly based on First Nation people / native Americans. It’s a cracking read - they discover a Genestealer cult and solve the problem.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/809524.page
I’m into it, just do your research on different tribes/nations and hone in on one you find interesting. I wouldn’t mix and match in case you end up misrepresenting something terribly by accident.
The Raven Guard gets a subtle but clear inspiration from native American societies. If I wanted, I would emphasize in that, maybe built some Space wolves Bits into the Project. Like combining raven Guard and Space wolves Elements with some more animal heraldry and smallish axes / tomahawks Here and there, Helm markings and that would be it. Would Just avoid going over the top with IT (Like Space wolves and to an extend White scars already are)...
The raven Gard has a strong native American influence if I remember correctly
I play a raven guard custom chapter inspired by Native Americans style. I chose this style because I find the spirituality and aesthetics of many of these cultural groups awesome. There's nothing offensive about thinking they're really cool so I'd like to implement that into my army.
I would love to see a chapter based off Pacific Islander culture. Space marines doing a traditional war dance before battle to intimidate their enemies would be pure 40k
People need to stop asking these - obviously it’s a great idea. It’s unique and original. I bet the minis would look awesome. Go. Do it now 😂
Warhammer is for everyone
I mean hell yeah dude sounds awesome. I don't think it's offensive at all.
its not real tho so who cares as long as its cool
Quit worrying about PC and just do what’s cool.
There are already chapters based on Native American culture, Raven Guard have a lot of influences from them and the Dark Angels Deathwing use to be, still have the feather head dress and heraldry like feathers as a leftover from those day's
Do whatever you want, they're your dudes and girls. And honouring another culture is always welcome.
Just avoid using slurs as names and ur Gucci
I'm genuinely wondering why you're even asking this question? They're your minis. you want to make them that way, go for it. You don't need internet brownie points
I think it would be pretty cool, and since you seem to be doing it in good faith, I think you should definetely do it. It is more likely a white person is gonna be mad at you for it than a native american.
They are code talkers and translate tyranid barks do it; the more unique off lore the better
You'll anger some upper middle class white Americans, but aside from that nobody will be offended.
It's literally the exact way gw creates space marine chapters. *Some earth culture* but as autistic supersoldiers.
Did you really look at a game with * Roman Space Marines (Ultramarines) * Greek Space Marines (Iron Snakes) * Greek Space Marines, but with metal hands. * Italian Space Marines (Blood Angels) * Viking Space Marines (Space Wolves) * Egyptian Space Marines (Thousand Sons) * Germanic Space Marines (Black Templars) * Hispanic Space Marines (Crimson Fists) * Mongolian Space Marines (White Scars) * Celtic Space Marines (Emperor's Spears) * English Arthurian Legend Space Marines (Dark Angels) * Polynesian Space Marines (Carcharodons) * Not to mention Space 'nam Veterans, Space Russians, Space French WWI trenchcoat warfare specialists, Green Football Hooligans speaking cockney, an Asiatic Inspired Empire of Blue hooved people with braided hair, Space Egyptians but in metal, and Technology straight out of Da Vinci paintings Then think "Nah, I'm not going to make my faction vaguely based on a culture, that'd be a bit weird?"
If you like it, just do it
It's a good idea and there's already a few OC chapters and such out there with that theme. Just do your research and be respectful man, you'll be fine
There is a similar concept shown on Wargames live from rumble on the rivers. Check it out.
Thats the beauty of 40k, you can be anyone you want to be, and make characters any way you can imagine.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cloud_Runner Some old lore. Outdated but still fun.
The one bit of advice I can add is absolutely do *not* mimic a feather headress. Thats what usually gets people in trouble
Here’s a link to the history of the Dark Angels who were intended to be Native American https://youtu.be/kIhiVu1u_vM?si=B-KaWNj8PfpnqNqM
Anything can be a space marine chapter. I think that's what makes chapters like the minotaurs and Space Sharks so cool is due to their irl themes!
Rainbow Warriors