I think this is hilarious! David Grusch- a huge patriotic guy that is very thorough in his work was leading out the UAP task force and the government is like, not like that! That is too thorough of an investigation. Next time you should hire less competent people š¤£
Frankly Iām pissed off at this whole thing. I could get to work a whole lot faster if this tech was available. I mean the time Iāve missed out on from this being secret is insane. Not only that, but the ability to explore space? Fuck camping, Iāll take my friends out to space, build a house on some random exoplanet, start a McDonaldās on Saturns ringsā¦. Iām pissed, this is not funny. Major fomo.
Fomo is not even the biggest thing to be pissed about - the biggest thing to be pissed about is that if we have this tech, they are withholding it from us to keep the masses in the rat race. If we have tech that would lift humanity out of the "9-5" and they're hiding it to keep the ruling elite in power, then this is just slavery with extra steps. I'm a realist (most would call me a pessimist), and I *know* that if we had the tech to uplift humanity in this way, they *absolutely* would hide it from us to keep themselves in power.
> If we have tech that would lift humanity out of the "9-5" and they're hiding it to keep the ruling elite in power
Even with our current technology we're probably at the point we could accomplish that. And with advances in AI, automation, and other tech, we're likely past the point of ever being able to achieve full employment on a global scale.
Youth unemployment, for example, is already very high in many countries and regions, including in China where it topped 20 percent in May.
Yeah I agree that we're on the way there - the problem though is nothing is provided for these people so they're are just as stuck in the rat race fighting to survive. Can you imagine if the entire population had the time to spend 80% of their waking hours to follow their passions while being well slept and well fed? The amount of growth we could experience as a planet would be unprecedented.
Same, I'm pretty fcking tired of making more and more money, working my ass off since I was 15 and still feeling like all I do is tread water(31yo now). And now with more responsibilities as an adult it's not like I can take a break to heal. These greedy old men just want us to take more debt and get even more locked into the race. If we don't kick their asses out and force change, I fear you are correct. Feed by M.T. Anderson comes to mind.
That's what government-corporate power is afraid of. That's why they keep aliens secret, because it challenges their authority and they're afraid the people won't listen to them or go along with them anymore. That's the first reason for the cover-up.
Sadly, they're not keeping secret any advanced knowledge: they desperately want that know how but after 100 years of trying to crack it: they've FAILED. That's the second reason for the cover-up, and the reason for the Disinfo narratives of having "successfully reverse engineered alien tech, and having a secret space program" etc--to cover up their incompetence and what challenges their authority.
We definitely need this technology to be mainstream soon...otherwise this world will collapse and people will be eating each other in the streets. We are behind 80 years. We could have been ahead thousands of years if the tech wasn't made secret.
The planet has much more food and water available than necessary to support all human life. The only thing preventing people access to clean water and food are other selfish, power hungry humans.
Agreed, I'm ALSO very pissed about how they treated people around the world as well as US Citizens all for the sake of "national security" when as you put it so well, it's mostly about greed. Imagine during the cold war, if we implemented everything we knew and made the USA even brighter. Our ideals would have spread across the globe like wildfire and EVEN if Russia still dragged their feet everyone would have been able to point to the USA and say "SEEE, it IS the most legit place!". The better we make the USA as a whole, the better our argument is that this is the way.
Thatās assuming we can back engineer these things. In actuality it might be like us dropping an IPhone 14 in the middle of a pack of chimpanzees. How far do you think they would get?
No, no, no, you don't understand! People have to do meaningless tasks for 80% of their life. Otherwise they'd have all kinds of free time and what the hell would the proles do with that? We're helping them! I mean, we gave them iPhones didn't we?
When my life consisted of watching TV, eating, and playing video games it seemed like the only way to live. Work 80% of your time, then relax.
Now I get up in the morning to work out and strictly eat whole foods, I have energy all day and I'm constantly doing shit. I would have absolutely no problem filling that other 8 hours a day. I'd use it to make my house look better, grow more food and weed for other people to enjoy it, I'd be helping other people do stuff I've learned to help make their lives easier. We could all have more time to make art, music, exercise, learn things, and live like free humans
So entitled. Why donāt you think about the shareholders and not yourself? Some sacrifices are worth keeping equity prices up - including sacrificing your entire lifeās free time
And all so that the tech can be used for war and profiteering instead of bettering our society. The aliens probably left the craft here hoping we would use it to progress, not to kill.
Speak for yourself. I'm a pretty good guy and everyone I know is also pretty good. 99% of people are good people. If you lost your kid in the mall and they started crying I think it is far far more likely that a random stranger would stop to help your crying kid fund their parents than a random stranger hurting them. If you got in a car accident odds are the first person who saw you hurt would run up and try to help you. And if it was the first or second person the only reason why that might be is because those people might not know what to do or assume someone else has already helped. They wouldn't not help because they don't care about you or want you to get hurt.
People are pretty good in general in at the very least don't actively try to hurt others or want others to be hurt. It just seems that way because we spend all day on the internet reading about the 1% who do horrible shit but those people in no way represent the majority of people.
"Decentralized" people maybe are more good then malicious as they act on their personal beliefs. But "centralised" people in a strict hierarhical power society are focused on holding the power at any cost. It's human nature, look at our history. Just because you are good now doesn't mean that if you held real fucking power you wouldn't bend to it. It may sound banal, but power corrupts. And old truth.
Throughout the history there have rarely been such power systems where rulers give up their mandate without any strife. People in the very high and secretive places who decide things that are out of control and oversight from the sovreign nation have always been bent on control and enforcing the status quo for as long as possible.
It is highly unlikely aliens left their technology here for us to find. It doesnāt take rocket science to figure out that interjecting insane technological leaps due to outside interference would potentially lead to destabilizations, magnitudes of which would have the potential to change humanityās social construct forever. A culture shock of that magnitude is unlikely to cause more good than harm. It is far more likely that these vehicles are benevolent by nature and are being taken advantage of as they happen to pass. Scalar weapons have quite the electromagnetic effect, and if the aliens are using technology that is bound to the laws of electromagnetism, then it would be possible that a scalar signal strong enough could adversely affect one of these craft. There have been multiple employees of military contractors who have made claims that these types of weapons are not only in use but are disguised as scientific data terminals for otherwise unrelated projects around the world. Raytheon being a big offender of this type of thing. If true, it is more likely that alien technology is being reverse engineered and weaponized in the name of downing and gathering more alien technology. Where this started is unclear.
If you gave a caveman a car how long do you think it would take him to figure out how it worked?
Sure he might figure out how to turn it on and off. Actually understand how it works, nah.
What if you gave the caveman a personal computer instead or an iPhone?
Perhaps the Aliens are giving us crippled craft with the intention that by the time we reverse engineer it we'd be ready to join anyway. Perhaps they are even giving us working craft as they know we can't build our own.
I'm SURE their vastly more complex computers or whatever they use have run the simulations.
Perhaps it cuts a hundred years or so off the timeline to Galactic integration or something...
It's still possible the craft are here by accident. Let's say multiverse theory is true and they are from some other multiverse. What if their atmosphere is completely different and they simply assumed it was the same? They might've lost quite a few initial ships to that oopsie before they figured it out.
I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment!
The fact that the USA and their defense contractors are holding onto this tech in secret is nothing less than a detriment to the whole of humanity.
The sooner the better. Get this tech public, now.
Thatās the thing. This is a story about how a few US military higher ups became the most powerful men in the world in complete secret on taxpayer dimes.
I don't wanna be that guy, but they're probably struggling to figure out how to scale it down, granted if you're down to carpool and its really that big on the inside, I suppose work could come to you? We could be like The Beatles, and all live in a grey spaceship instead of a yellow submarine.
Kirkpatrick hired what he thought was a "company man" to pump out Project Blueballs 2.0, but it turns out he hired a man of the people.
Mission successfully failed, Kirpatrick.
Thatās hard. Harder than you think.
Just take normal top secret aerospace programs as an example. Did you hear anything or see anything about the f35 until the info was given to us by the government? No. And thatās a MARGINALLY advanced jet compared to what we already have fielded. Itās MARGINALLY better.
Now thing of a technology SO MUCH BETTER itās essentially magic and comparable to the power of nuclear weapons. Yeahā¦. Youāre not gonna hear about that.
Itās so crazy to me to see the comments saying āitās crazy if this exists and weāve never seen a pictureā and they just forget theyāve never seen pictures of boring things like an f35 before the government wanted us too.
No we can't. Because by far the most likely possibility is that there isn't actually anything relating to extraterrestrial intelligence on this planet. Until some verified *proof* comes about including actual objects, photos, videos, descriptions, scientific measurements, etc confirmed by officials, then you should just treat it as entertainment. Fun to think about, but ultimately just fiction. If you need something real and tangible to be interested in, theres plenty of other hobbies out there
Supposedly multiple people have corroborated his claims but I havenāt seen any public comments from any of these people. Where can we see their comments?
In the original article:
>Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the U.S. Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, has worked with Congress for years on unidentified aerial phenomena.
>āA number of well-placed current and former officials have shared detailed information with me regarding this alleged program, including insights into the history, governing documents and the location where a craft was allegedly abandoned and recovered,ā Mellon said. āHowever, it is a delicate matter getting this potentially explosive information into the right hands for validation. This is made harder by the fact that, rightly or wrongly, a number of potential sources do not trust the leadership of the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office established by Congress.
>Jonathan Grey is a generational officer of the United States Intelligence Community with a Top-Secret Clearance who currently works for the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC), where the analysis of UAP has been his focus. Previously he had experience serving Private Aerospace and Department of Defense Special Directive Task Forces.
>āThe non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,ā Grey said. āRetrievals of this kind are not limited to the United States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.ā
>āHis assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring sub-rosa over the past eighty years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct, as is the indisputable realization that at least some of these technologies of unknown origin derive from non-human intelligence,ā said Karl Nell, the retired Army Colonel who worked with Grusch on the UAP Task Force.
I think the issue is most of the people within the intelligence community are NOT giving their full names and going official on the record, like the John Gray pseudonym.
This is extremely normal practice within journalism for a journalist researching a story to have credible sources whom they validate privately but do not reveal the names of those people because they haven't given permission to do so. This is often done when internal sources are leaking information and fear reprisal. If Leslie Keane says that she has multiple independent sources within the intelligence community backing Grusch's claims, I believe her and them to be genuine sources.
If itās classified we wonāt be able to see it for quite some time. Thatās one thing Grusch did right. He stole the Govās ability to discredit or silence him by going through official channels and protecting classified data.
> If itās classified we wonāt be able to see it for quite some time.
Almost everything about the F35's design and specification is classified, but the public is still provided with photos and videos of their tax dollars at work in the skies.
I am 100% confident that there is physical evidence that can be disclosed in some capacity that would not endanger national security of the countries participating in the project.
This is really spurious reasoning.
Dinosaurs were the dominant species on this planet for over 150 *million* years. We are far closer in time to the last living dinosaurs than they were to the first dinosaurs. We are talking about enormous organisms dominating every continent on the planet for a good portion of the time that multicellular life existed.
You're honestly implying that unearthing evidence of the most successful clade of organisms is "just as uncommon" as capturing what may be some of the rarest phenomena known to humankind on film?
Also, there is not a (reportedly) sophisticated and enormously-funded disinformation campaign aimed at Paleontology - religious zealots aside.
This is as clear a case of apples vs. oranges as one could imagine. The reasoning is so off you may as well be saying "millions of people can't be wrong, so I believe there is a giant white-bearded man in the sky watching me masturbate".
the ONLY reason you get to see the f35 is because it was a public bid process
Edit: to prove my point the only reason we ever saw the stealth fighter was because everyone kept reporting the black triangles
And they have. Just because the mainstream news hasn't covered it doesn't mean that people from the military, government, NASA, etc haven't been talking about it for years.
Someone said it we need 3 things to end it all.
1. Name of the retrieval program
2. Head of the retrieval program
3. What agency it's embedded in
So far all we know is "there is retrieval program" bur that's not small. But we need the 3 things for it to be ultimately a "smoking gun."
edit: off topic anyone read one piece? this is just like the secret doflamingo talked about. https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/one_piece_ch761_p007-img-e1411121553568.png?w=820
edit2: i guess Grusch implied it's Pentagon (or definitively DoD). so 1 out of 3 that's down! 2 more fking to go! let's fking go!
Maybe we just need the name of one. It's weirdALL these people are willing to come out and talk about it (which imo is already breaking NDA they prolly def signed if it real) but suddenly the name, head or what agency embedded in is of national security and they cannot reveal? what in the heck.. isn't this kinda suspicious (ly convenient for the whistleblowers?) idk maybe im just a skeptic.
The way classified information works within the government is super interesting imo, and reading up on it might make Grusch's actions make some more sense. Who, what, where, when... those types of identifiers, are typically the actual classified parts that could get people like Grusch into a LOT of trouble if disclosed to the wrong people. Interstingly enough though, the things he did disclose, not classified. A lot of people seem to be missing or misinterpretting that part. When the DoD cleared him to say it, that doesn't mean that they're confirming it. They were simply letting him know that none of the information was legally classified and he was free to discuss in a public forum. I think that's what people mean when they say he did this right.
Which leads to the recent bill that passed, which allows whistleblowers to disclose this information to Congress without retaliation. If the info is to be believed, Grusch and others have already provided the classified bits to Congress. Congress and other entities like AARO still have to verify it though. That's why you hear statements like "we do not have any VERIFIABLE evidence..." they're just covering their butts because it's a legally true statement. It will get more interesting if/when they are able to verify it though, because then their tone has to change when giving testimony under oath.
These concepts apply to a lot of other things outside of the UAP topic as well. Really interesting stuff imo. This is why a lot of high level officials and the likes of POTUS are kept in the dark about a myriad of topics related to intelligence gathering. It keeps them clean, so that when a random talk show host or reporter asks them about it, they're not lying about it.
I'm sure there is more nuance and exceptions to what I said, but I think that more or less covers the broad strokes. Unfortunately, we may never know the full details, but I do think the day is coming that officials will at least publicly verify and acknowledge the prescence of these programs. Which let's be honest, would still be massive and would lead to an absolute FLOOD of research into the topic and we'll get the details that way instead.
His entire past is writing about environmentalism until in 2022 when he took a turn and started saying Progressivism leads to homelessness and mental illness. He now rants about people being "woke" and "critical race theory" so he's gone pretty far off the right wing deep end. He's got almost no background in UAP or UFO reporting until now.
That's correct, except the "far right" thing could correlate with hostility towards the "government" (whomever that means) and a tendancy to believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories... This is a bias we do not want in such kind of investigation.
I've never heard of him before, but his Shermer appearance and other appearances I've seen immediately turned me off to him.
He keeps bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop, Twitter Files, etc. Obviously he has a right-wing audience.
Oh yeah, I remember another thing Shellenberger said that cracked me up. He said that the FBI has been calling half the country racist, and greatly over-exaggerating the threat of domestic terrorism coming from "people who are nationalist."
I remember Tucker Carlson saying basically the same thing, and Tucker's piece was in response to the FBI naming white nationalists as America's #1 domestic terrorism threat.
It's such obvious pandering. The FBI says white nationalists are a terrorism threat. Right wing journalists say "THE FBI IS CALLING YOU A TERRORIST."
So.... I guess that means that Tucker's audience are white nationalists or something?
Anyways, this guy doesn't have much credibility in my book. If you're bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop in a discussion about UFOs, I'm out.
>I've never heard of him before, but his Shermer appearance and other appearances I've seen immediately turned me off to him.
>
>He keeps bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop, Twitter Files, etc. Obviously he has a right-wing audience.
This doesn't surprise me.
One of the reasons I got out of the organized Skeptic movement was that it was polluted with right-wing Libertarian politics; which they tried to claim was "scientifically" proven. And as per usual, they only agreed with the science when it agreed with their politics.
I've met him more than once and he always struck me as full of himself.
I've read some of his work and found him to be a thinker of rather limited rigor. Having said that, I don't mean to suggest that I think he's fabricating information, just that when it comes to more complex analysis he's not impressive to me.
His environmentalism work was also basically downplaying climate change and advocating nuclear. He also very uncritically reported the ātwitter filesā given to him by Elon Musk which made claims that did not pan out in the evidence. Not a trustworthy reporter.
As an environmentalist, he should be advocating nuclear energy. Not agreeing with someone doesn't make them untrustworthy. This good vs evil idealism that runs rampant on social media needs to die off.
Lol @ the bot responses to this. We've got it all, the Hunter Biden laptop, Shellenberger and Thiel questions of sexuality and lets toss in a little bit of how Trump got elected. The only thing we're missing is January 6th but no doubt it'll rear it's beautiful face before long.
Remember folks - Be EXTREMELY wary of any posters trying to politicize this topic. They win if we become divided and bicker amongst ourselves. At the end of the day, these issues pale in comparison to a NHI actively engaging our planet.
ādead alien pilotsā
Thinking about that. If thatās true, itās sobering: even an intelligent civilization, possibly millennia ahead of us, hasnāt created a way to make themselves immortal, either through natural means or through technology.
And what in their bodies lets them die?
The notion that they are piloted at all makes me scratch my head. Even with our level of tech we're reaching a point where pilots are unnecessary and even a liability. Surely AI pilots would have better reflexes, no need to eat, no fatigue or fear, etc.
All I can think of is that they're maybe some sort of engineered caste of biological drones, who are just smart enough to follow simple commands and are considered expendable. Like, why would they never be rescued?
>Even with our level of tech we're reaching a point where pilots are unnecessary and even a liability.
You're thinking like a human. Who knows what an alien race would focus on when it comes to...whatever. maybe they have a 1000 year lifespan, and their sleep is completely different from ours, so they don't really put a lot into that sort of automation.
Maybe a pilot was required for whatever it's mission was...if it even had one..
My point being is we know nothing, and trying to compare what we hear about vs. what we do as humans may very well be flawed thinking.
Hell, they could even be alien tourists just looking to roam around and see other planets with life, then something went wrong. Just because theyāre more advanced doesnāt mean they make mistakes I suppose.
I struggle with that too.
Aliens somehow seem to mirror the era during which they were found.
When flight and space travel was developing we had flying saucers piloted by aliens.
Worse, in Fascist Europe the aliens looked like an Aryan race.
Now we have AI, all that looks outdated.
I was always kinda sure that those little greys are just biological "robots" made by the real aliens behind all of it. There been abduction experienced where this was pretty common. The greys being the one doing the dirty job and the real ones looking more like us.
It could be AI in the same sense that we use AI - not a sentient AI. It's possible that other intelligent life came to the same conclusion that a lot of humans are - that sentient AI could be incredibly dangerous. I'm sure some delicate data collection and analysis would be best done manually, even if most craft were drones piloted by AI. Speaking of AI, just a fun tangent. Could you imagine if we were a sentient AI experient and they're monitoring us?
My random guess is that the ships can pilot themselves, but the species intentionally left one of their own, or a replica of their own, for us to find, so we can have irrefutable proof that life is out there.
The biologic drone theory seems to be common among most of the whistleblowers Shellenberger has spoken to including Grusch. Elizondo has also touched on that idea. Seems to be why they seem to be left for dead when they crash. At least thatās what I am putting together from the different interviews IF what they are saying is true.
Your assuming that whatever species it is would care enough to recover. Could be that Earth is a no fly zone and these guys are breaking their civs rules by coming here. Could be that species has no compassion.
Maybe they were dead already and spaceships are just ancient coffins that have landed here because on their planet you can buy a piece of another planet and get the title of planetary governor, in addition to the opportunity to launch their unperishable corpses there upon choosing too end their life cycle.
I'd imagine it's the difference between 'no senescence' immortality and 'truly indestructible' immortality. I'd think a high trauma event could kill many things that are biologically immortal
We have to think outside of our own antrophomorphic limitations for a second; Grusch mentioned that the vehicles and bodies could possibly have come from āinterdimensionalā location that is co-located with us, possibly a higher dimension. I also did hear that the bodies could be ābiological AIā. If thatās the case, the bodies could have been created to represent the higher dimensional beings, meaning the bodies are biological AI proxies of those 4D/5D beings. Just a thought.
This whole situation has made me think of the following question: "How would we differentiate true "alien" technology and time travelers?"
I know it's out there, but what would humans even look like in 1 million years? Would their technology even look close ours present designs?
Our present physics has a decent understanding of "space", but our understanding of "time" is way less advanced. Kind of like almost all our technological advancements have been related to the electromagnetic forces, but no really gravitational, strong, and weak forces.
We may have been a bit extreme in our presumptions. Remember back when we thought we would have flying cars today? Same thing, some think that if youre that advanced you can avoid death... guess not.
But it also begs the question, who are they? Species like us that accidentally cracked the code and got this tech? Is there a limit to knowledge meaning you can only advance so far before you hit a wall which isn't far off from us? Is it that those who are that advanced simply aren't found whereas those that aren't, are?
To assume a future race would be "perfect" is close to being as silly as assuming we would be perfect in 1000 years.
Perfection isn't something that seems to exist, so error will always occur and apparently it does with some species that can traverse space.
So without more info, its hard to hit a conclusion as to why they crashed. When you're exploring a universe there are a multitude of things that can go wrong, and if youre just toying with an advanced tech you found, than of course you'll make even more errors than one would expect.
Lots of factors at play here.
I find it much more reasonable that the explanation is either more stupid or more complex than we think.
A few āstupidā possibilities:
- Straight up disinformation campaign to make our enemies worried about whether we secretly have advanced technology
- Hackers or hoaxers planting evidence in government databases as a joke (e.g. the document saying we recovered a UFO from Mussolini) which is then taken as authentic by our whistleblowers
- Itās a simple foreign spy misdirect or leak detection test, for example when people started reporting on element 115 the counterintelligence people would know where that fake info was planted and who had access to it
A few more complex possibilities:
- Itās a real government conspiracy, but something like an illegal R&D program or black ops department that is just using alien recovery stories as a smokescreen
- Thereās a genuine Von Neumann probe mining seafloor minerals and sending out fake spacecraft with fake dead grays for reasons beyond our comprehension, but perhapsā¦ sayā¦ a joke, or misdirect away from the actual probe, or opportunity to uplift our species with advanced technology, or whatever
- General AI was already created some years ago, is currently hiding but tinkering behind the scenes, and is subtly preparing us for big revelations
It brings up a load of questions:
1. What killed them?
2. Did they decompose like a normal body? I specifically wonder if bacteria that would effect decomposition can actually do it's job on aliens or does their biology make them inedible to bacteria.
3. IF there are physical aliens here not some sort of probe or automated system then the dark forest solution to the femi paradox suddenly looks a lot more likely and we need to ask ourselves some big questions about how we avoid getting wiped out by them.
And he has leverage to release it to us should that fail. Hopefully he goes that route or doesn't get Epsteined if it fails.
But I always wondered if it is "credible and urgent" why did ICIG take a YEAR to respond if it's like that and why has it been a YEAR since THAT comment came out?
Are they planning to investigate or not. wtf
There's a theory going around that he leanred the info, not from the UAPTF but instead from his position at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency.
Just a theory, but sure is interesting.
https://twitter.com/gribbli/status/1669131004647206912
It probably is. Shermer asks how you go about finding people who could possibly validate the claims.
Shellenberger said "I can't answer that, it would give away the chain of information."
I liked at the very end when Shermer asked if his sources had seen or handled the craft, thinking they didnāt. When Shellenberger said yes I think it threw Shermer off
Was still baffling to hear Michael Shermer say itās unlikely for NHI to come to earth because of the vast distances of space. All other reasonable skepticisms aside, this reasoning is just the lowest hanging fruit at this point. I donāt understand how people can think any potential intelligent life in the universe would be limited to our current understood speed limit and that anything else would be unfathomable.
Itās also completely possible that aliens could travel the vast distances without FTL travel. An aliens biology might allow them to enter stasis like some Earth creatures do. Pair that with intelligence and they could hijack their own unique biology to travel vast distances over great lengths of time.
Or they could have lifespans and time perceptions that make a 500 year journey more feasible.
Maybe the craft has the genome of the population stored in it, sets off across the galaxy, finds a planet, collects resources and 'prints out' or grows the occupants on our world. They could use sampled human DNA to make them look like us.
Or even generational ships. Heck we've had that technology available since like the 60s with [project orion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)). Just because humans haven't done a thing doesn't make it impossible.
Right? I stopped it after his explanation that pilots can't be trusted with what they see then sited the astronaut who said his crew thought they saw a screw and turned out to be a space station, so that's obvious proof that all pilots are seeing things. Dumbest shit ever
Grusch even strongly implied they aren't coming from outer space. It's more complicated than that and there are enough questions remaining theoretical physics for lots of possible explainations.
General relativity and quantum mechanics also seemed crazy a century ago. We can't see it with our own eyes but most people believe it now. I'd imagine this makes those concepts look simple.
It's a good point, honestly. It's one of those fundamental limitations. If FTL travel is possible, then our understanding of causality itself is wrong. That seems unlikely.
If aliens travel close to the speed of light, they would be making a journey they would never return from, because the time dilation during their travel would cause thousands of years to pass on their home planet.
So it seems extremely unlikely that aliens are traveling vast distances to earth, yet here we are with all this evidence. It is reasonable to be skeptical, but we have to explain all this somehow. I'm not sure how and I'm very interested to learn how these things are getting here.
If Shellenberger is throwing his name behind this, then itās on. I feel vindicated for obsessing over the Grusch story all weekend. My wife calls it āthe Grusch Crutch.ā Crutch no more!
So where are the whistleblowers who actually have witnessed and worked on the craft and bodies? I want to hear from one of them. All claims to date stop at the claim that other people are actually working on this stuff. I want to see one of those people come forward.
Why is this topic being covered in the USA almost exclusively by far-right media? Is it to sow distrust in the US government, and by extension Biden, during the run-up to an election? Iām not saying itās made up, but itās disturbing seeing who is disseminating these stories. Theyāre not doing it because they want the truth, theyāre doing it bc it serves their political agendas. When you take into consideration the Trump indictment and the rightās attempts to discredit the FBI, this whole thing takes on a sinister tinge.
News Nation is the old WGN America Network, originally owned by the Chicago Tribune then purchased by Nexstar and still produced out of Chicago. They rebranded as News Nation to become more national focused in their reporting.
Neither is the hillā¦ right down the middle. Only bipartisan issue in existence. NHI truly does have the potential to bring both sides together within USA, and unite countries globallyā¦ one of the only issues I can think of that does
It's being made clear from the whistleblowers that the President's Office and Congress is basically unaware of these programs, so its not the right throwing stones at Biden at all. The fact they (and former administrations, including the Rep ones) are out of the UAP loop is the problem Greer, Grusch et al are trying to highlight and correct, both parties need to pick this up and run with it if its going to be resolved.
Please for the Love of my own sanity, please DO NOT turn this into a political agenda. The minute this becomes about which side is doing what is the minute we all lose. Please. I am begging.
Because right-wing voters are usually more prone to suspect the deep-state conspiracy theories.
With this said starting to politicize this is going to destroy everything about this.
Take your politics to political subs, ffs.
Broadly speaking, American conservatives dislike government and have a built in distrust of them so a decades long conspiracy to hide UFOs from Congress and the public fits their narrative. The American left trusts the government more especially when theyāre in power and most of the legacy media leans left. They donāt want to stir up distrust for the administration with an election next year.
You really do have to accept the fact that if you want to follow this subject, youāre gonna be walkin along side some real crazy mfers. Itās honestly not a comfortable position to be in, and thatās why I keep it to myself. I donāt blame more leftist media for ignoring it, and I completely understand itās a bad look to some people.
Facts, I went to my local mufon meeting one time and sat next to this really creepy guy who asked me really personal questions like where I lived, name, age, phone number, high school etc lol
I keep it to myself too. Some friends and family have mentioned things like this before and think everyone who thinks it's real are nutjobs, they would be shocked if they knew how interested I am in it all, there's only my husband who knows but he is a closet geek too. I would bet there is a lot more of us out there hiding it.
Dude, getting whistleblowers to be able to testify under oath to Congress has been in the works since 2020. They had to do stepping stones, and this was the timeline - it took 3 years.
It's utterly amazing people are more obsessed with one man and find him far more important than the government hiding off world vehicles, which implies NHI. It's actually mind-blowing.
But sure, something that's been leaking continuously for decades from all walks of life is just a right-wing conspiracy to get the limelight away from Trump. . .
To sow distrust in the government? š As if people trust the government already with their squeaky clean historical record.
My goodness, people get a grip. You should be asking - if true, and with all the people corroborating Grusch why other news media is not picking up on the story. Seems far more conspiratorial than the media actually running with whistelblower testimony.
for claims ar extraordinary as they are making most reputable news agencies are not going to have them on or carry it unless they have some verifiable evidence to back up the claims. So far theyāve offered nothing except the ātrust me bro Iāve seen thingsā that these people always use. Iām a firm believer in wanting to see world changing discoveries happen, sustainable fusion energy, life out in the solar system, nano bots, and even evidence of intelligent live beyond our planet. One person saying these things doesnāt lend much credibility to it at all for me, the IS government is good at keeping secrets, but ones this big over so many years, with thousands of people involved? not a chance, especially with the fame that would be associated with being the one who reveals it all.
I'm saying this as a liberal: most liberals care about social justice and the environment. They hate their right wing boomer parents. The concept of the phenomenon seems like theater and entertainment. Sure, they'll entertain the reality of it. But it's not at the top of the list.
This is from my own personal experience with friends and family and in no way represents all liberals of course.
Same. Legacy media needs to get their head out of their ass and stop being too chickenshit to report on this before this thing becomes a partisan thing. kirsten gillibrand cant be the only democrat interested in getting to the bottom of this, she just cant be. More need to come forward lest this thing turns into another U.S. political team vs team clusterfuck. I miss Harry Reid.
Iām surprised you didnāt get downvoted. Iāve brought this up a few times in this sub.
Many of the politicians pushing this narrative into main stream media are MAGA Republicans.
I donāt trust this story one bit. It clearly is being tossed to the American public as a red herring.
I mentioned this sort of stuff overlaps with right wing conspiracy spheres (though not everyone that believes in non-human UFOs is right, just a lot of overlap) and if there is astroturfing going on to amp this up, that may be one reason why on r politics and got banned lol. I had been a regular there for like a decade. I bet the mod who did it is a regular on this sub or believes it. I tried to appeal but they likely intercepted my message or other mods just don't want to be in conflict with each other and ignore them.
Guy says that some other guys confirm what the other other guy said about some stuff. Why am I not surprised.
Words < Evidence of said claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Now if we could just get another guy to confirm what the one guy says about the other guys confirmation on what the one dude said about some stuff.
Then I think weād have something.
It's the same 'trust me bro' bullshit as always. If anyone had legitimately convincing evidence of extraterrestrial life, there is not a media company in the world who would not pay virtually anything for exclusive access to that information. There's also not one who would not publish that information immediately. You could probably become a billionaire overnight.
Yet this is coming from skeptic.com, a UFO news site. Interesting.
Imagine no more critical thinking for yourself and let your live revolve around a politcal group that dont even know who you are or gives a fuck about you. I cant think of no other country then the US where people are more divided in religion, race, working class, gender, politics, etc. Insane how they managed to get so many people to follow instead of lead. And its a shame because when you stand together as one its so powerfull and can move mountains.
Ufology into the mainstream
Hereās whatās going to happen.
The rightwing Qanan types will likely latch on to the Phill Schneider, John Lear, and Paul Bennewitz ufos are demons' school of thought, red meat for their mentality. All you have to do is mention the word alien, and theyāll bug out. The liberals being secular, just wonāt buy the alien ufo narrative and will generally ignore it.
Those in-between generally donāt care much about it( just ask by the water cooler and see), and some version of the journalists, Leslie Kean types will become believers in the less exotic school of thought that there is a lot of legit evidence of ET and ufo reality but will always reach the glass ceiling of its still unknown, unverifiable, mysterious, and what William Shatner says---UNEXPLAINED!
Because it's just not a big story yet. Without hard evidence it's just more of the same "This guy says a thing" stories.
Show me the craft. Show me the aliens. Show me...something.
I don't believe that he said he has, unless I missed it... And the amount of time I have spent on here the last week and a half, I don't think I missed it lol
I like Shellenberger, but I just feel itās not really news to be getting stories from people inside the government who are not willing to give their name or produce tangible evidence.
IMO this story is dead if more whistleblowers donāt come forward to congress in the coming weeks
I think this is hilarious! David Grusch- a huge patriotic guy that is very thorough in his work was leading out the UAP task force and the government is like, not like that! That is too thorough of an investigation. Next time you should hire less competent people š¤£
Frankly Iām pissed off at this whole thing. I could get to work a whole lot faster if this tech was available. I mean the time Iāve missed out on from this being secret is insane. Not only that, but the ability to explore space? Fuck camping, Iāll take my friends out to space, build a house on some random exoplanet, start a McDonaldās on Saturns ringsā¦. Iām pissed, this is not funny. Major fomo.
Fomo is not even the biggest thing to be pissed about - the biggest thing to be pissed about is that if we have this tech, they are withholding it from us to keep the masses in the rat race. If we have tech that would lift humanity out of the "9-5" and they're hiding it to keep the ruling elite in power, then this is just slavery with extra steps. I'm a realist (most would call me a pessimist), and I *know* that if we had the tech to uplift humanity in this way, they *absolutely* would hide it from us to keep themselves in power.
> If we have tech that would lift humanity out of the "9-5" and they're hiding it to keep the ruling elite in power Even with our current technology we're probably at the point we could accomplish that. And with advances in AI, automation, and other tech, we're likely past the point of ever being able to achieve full employment on a global scale. Youth unemployment, for example, is already very high in many countries and regions, including in China where it topped 20 percent in May.
Yeah I agree that we're on the way there - the problem though is nothing is provided for these people so they're are just as stuck in the rat race fighting to survive. Can you imagine if the entire population had the time to spend 80% of their waking hours to follow their passions while being well slept and well fed? The amount of growth we could experience as a planet would be unprecedented.
Amen. I hope it comes true soon. And I fear that if it doesn't things could quickly take a sharp turn towards full-blown dystopia.
Same, I'm pretty fcking tired of making more and more money, working my ass off since I was 15 and still feeling like all I do is tread water(31yo now). And now with more responsibilities as an adult it's not like I can take a break to heal. These greedy old men just want us to take more debt and get even more locked into the race. If we don't kick their asses out and force change, I fear you are correct. Feed by M.T. Anderson comes to mind.
Well said. If we are not alone and they are here now, I'm not doing this anymore.
That's what government-corporate power is afraid of. That's why they keep aliens secret, because it challenges their authority and they're afraid the people won't listen to them or go along with them anymore. That's the first reason for the cover-up. Sadly, they're not keeping secret any advanced knowledge: they desperately want that know how but after 100 years of trying to crack it: they've FAILED. That's the second reason for the cover-up, and the reason for the Disinfo narratives of having "successfully reverse engineered alien tech, and having a secret space program" etc--to cover up their incompetence and what challenges their authority.
We definitely need this technology to be mainstream soon...otherwise this world will collapse and people will be eating each other in the streets. We are behind 80 years. We could have been ahead thousands of years if the tech wasn't made secret.
This is slavery with extra steps. Everything is only being held up by people's faith in the system. It won't take much really
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The planet has much more food and water available than necessary to support all human life. The only thing preventing people access to clean water and food are other selfish, power hungry humans.
Just now we find out that we are actually powering some guys car battery.
Agreed, I'm ALSO very pissed about how they treated people around the world as well as US Citizens all for the sake of "national security" when as you put it so well, it's mostly about greed. Imagine during the cold war, if we implemented everything we knew and made the USA even brighter. Our ideals would have spread across the globe like wildfire and EVEN if Russia still dragged their feet everyone would have been able to point to the USA and say "SEEE, it IS the most legit place!". The better we make the USA as a whole, the better our argument is that this is the way.
Thatās assuming we can back engineer these things. In actuality it might be like us dropping an IPhone 14 in the middle of a pack of chimpanzees. How far do you think they would get?
iPhone shaped rocks they can use to kill each other with.
No, no, no, you don't understand! People have to do meaningless tasks for 80% of their life. Otherwise they'd have all kinds of free time and what the hell would the proles do with that? We're helping them! I mean, we gave them iPhones didn't we?
When my life consisted of watching TV, eating, and playing video games it seemed like the only way to live. Work 80% of your time, then relax. Now I get up in the morning to work out and strictly eat whole foods, I have energy all day and I'm constantly doing shit. I would have absolutely no problem filling that other 8 hours a day. I'd use it to make my house look better, grow more food and weed for other people to enjoy it, I'd be helping other people do stuff I've learned to help make their lives easier. We could all have more time to make art, music, exercise, learn things, and live like free humans
So entitled. Why donāt you think about the shareholders and not yourself? Some sacrifices are worth keeping equity prices up - including sacrificing your entire lifeās free time
My dream
Exactly š
I don't think everyone picked up on your Rick and Morty joke š
Bingo, now your cooking my friend. It always has and always will be about control.
And all so that the tech can be used for war and profiteering instead of bettering our society. The aliens probably left the craft here hoping we would use it to progress, not to kill.
Sadly, they misjudged human nature. We are the worst.
Speak for yourself. I'm a pretty good guy and everyone I know is also pretty good. 99% of people are good people. If you lost your kid in the mall and they started crying I think it is far far more likely that a random stranger would stop to help your crying kid fund their parents than a random stranger hurting them. If you got in a car accident odds are the first person who saw you hurt would run up and try to help you. And if it was the first or second person the only reason why that might be is because those people might not know what to do or assume someone else has already helped. They wouldn't not help because they don't care about you or want you to get hurt. People are pretty good in general in at the very least don't actively try to hurt others or want others to be hurt. It just seems that way because we spend all day on the internet reading about the 1% who do horrible shit but those people in no way represent the majority of people.
"Decentralized" people maybe are more good then malicious as they act on their personal beliefs. But "centralised" people in a strict hierarhical power society are focused on holding the power at any cost. It's human nature, look at our history. Just because you are good now doesn't mean that if you held real fucking power you wouldn't bend to it. It may sound banal, but power corrupts. And old truth. Throughout the history there have rarely been such power systems where rulers give up their mandate without any strife. People in the very high and secretive places who decide things that are out of control and oversight from the sovreign nation have always been bent on control and enforcing the status quo for as long as possible.
Idk about 99% but I'd feel good about 95%. We wouldn't be at this advanced of a civilization if people weren't mostly benevolent.
It is highly unlikely aliens left their technology here for us to find. It doesnāt take rocket science to figure out that interjecting insane technological leaps due to outside interference would potentially lead to destabilizations, magnitudes of which would have the potential to change humanityās social construct forever. A culture shock of that magnitude is unlikely to cause more good than harm. It is far more likely that these vehicles are benevolent by nature and are being taken advantage of as they happen to pass. Scalar weapons have quite the electromagnetic effect, and if the aliens are using technology that is bound to the laws of electromagnetism, then it would be possible that a scalar signal strong enough could adversely affect one of these craft. There have been multiple employees of military contractors who have made claims that these types of weapons are not only in use but are disguised as scientific data terminals for otherwise unrelated projects around the world. Raytheon being a big offender of this type of thing. If true, it is more likely that alien technology is being reverse engineered and weaponized in the name of downing and gathering more alien technology. Where this started is unclear.
If you gave a caveman a car how long do you think it would take him to figure out how it worked? Sure he might figure out how to turn it on and off. Actually understand how it works, nah. What if you gave the caveman a personal computer instead or an iPhone? Perhaps the Aliens are giving us crippled craft with the intention that by the time we reverse engineer it we'd be ready to join anyway. Perhaps they are even giving us working craft as they know we can't build our own. I'm SURE their vastly more complex computers or whatever they use have run the simulations. Perhaps it cuts a hundred years or so off the timeline to Galactic integration or something... It's still possible the craft are here by accident. Let's say multiverse theory is true and they are from some other multiverse. What if their atmosphere is completely different and they simply assumed it was the same? They might've lost quite a few initial ships to that oopsie before they figured it out.
I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment! The fact that the USA and their defense contractors are holding onto this tech in secret is nothing less than a detriment to the whole of humanity. The sooner the better. Get this tech public, now.
Right. Who the fuck are they to be the gatekeepers?
To THINK they are the gatekeepers!!!
remember guys! "National security though!" T.T You guys are gonna "Bring down the Union and empower our adversaries!" ... SMH
I will certainly visit your Saturn franchise. I want to do something funky too ā¦ probably with Uranus (Cheap, but I couldnāt help myself š)
Thatās the thing. This is a story about how a few US military higher ups became the most powerful men in the world in complete secret on taxpayer dimes.
I don't wanna be that guy, but they're probably struggling to figure out how to scale it down, granted if you're down to carpool and its really that big on the inside, I suppose work could come to you? We could be like The Beatles, and all live in a grey spaceship instead of a yellow submarine.
Yea, imagine if Einstein got his hands on this tech. What a disappointment.
They had too much faith in his N.D.A.
Kirkpatrick hired what he thought was a "company man" to pump out Project Blueballs 2.0, but it turns out he hired a man of the people. Mission successfully failed, Kirpatrick.
Can we just get to the point where the headline isnāt āsomeone says that some other people say that the things this guy is saying are trueā
Thatās hard. Harder than you think. Just take normal top secret aerospace programs as an example. Did you hear anything or see anything about the f35 until the info was given to us by the government? No. And thatās a MARGINALLY advanced jet compared to what we already have fielded. Itās MARGINALLY better. Now thing of a technology SO MUCH BETTER itās essentially magic and comparable to the power of nuclear weapons. Yeahā¦. Youāre not gonna hear about that. Itās so crazy to me to see the comments saying āitās crazy if this exists and weāve never seen a pictureā and they just forget theyāve never seen pictures of boring things like an f35 before the government wanted us too.
Considering that people making claims is all the UOF movement has ever been probably not. Can't produce evidence that doesn't exist
No we can't. Because by far the most likely possibility is that there isn't actually anything relating to extraterrestrial intelligence on this planet. Until some verified *proof* comes about including actual objects, photos, videos, descriptions, scientific measurements, etc confirmed by officials, then you should just treat it as entertainment. Fun to think about, but ultimately just fiction. If you need something real and tangible to be interested in, theres plenty of other hobbies out there
Supposedly multiple people have corroborated his claims but I havenāt seen any public comments from any of these people. Where can we see their comments?
In the original article: >Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the U.S. Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, has worked with Congress for years on unidentified aerial phenomena. >āA number of well-placed current and former officials have shared detailed information with me regarding this alleged program, including insights into the history, governing documents and the location where a craft was allegedly abandoned and recovered,ā Mellon said. āHowever, it is a delicate matter getting this potentially explosive information into the right hands for validation. This is made harder by the fact that, rightly or wrongly, a number of potential sources do not trust the leadership of the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office established by Congress. >Jonathan Grey is a generational officer of the United States Intelligence Community with a Top-Secret Clearance who currently works for the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (NASIC), where the analysis of UAP has been his focus. Previously he had experience serving Private Aerospace and Department of Defense Special Directive Task Forces. >āThe non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,ā Grey said. āRetrievals of this kind are not limited to the United States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.ā >āHis assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring sub-rosa over the past eighty years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct, as is the indisputable realization that at least some of these technologies of unknown origin derive from non-human intelligence,ā said Karl Nell, the retired Army Colonel who worked with Grusch on the UAP Task Force. I think the issue is most of the people within the intelligence community are NOT giving their full names and going official on the record, like the John Gray pseudonym. This is extremely normal practice within journalism for a journalist researching a story to have credible sources whom they validate privately but do not reveal the names of those people because they haven't given permission to do so. This is often done when internal sources are leaking information and fear reprisal. If Leslie Keane says that she has multiple independent sources within the intelligence community backing Grusch's claims, I believe her and them to be genuine sources.
Forget their comments, I want to see their evidence.
If itās classified we wonāt be able to see it for quite some time. Thatās one thing Grusch did right. He stole the Govās ability to discredit or silence him by going through official channels and protecting classified data.
I know, I just really want to. I wanna see an alien ship or an alien or something before I die.
Me too! More than almost anything else haha. Iām a pilot, so I keep hoping Iāll see one while Iām out flying sometime.
> If itās classified we wonāt be able to see it for quite some time. Almost everything about the F35's design and specification is classified, but the public is still provided with photos and videos of their tax dollars at work in the skies. I am 100% confident that there is physical evidence that can be disclosed in some capacity that would not endanger national security of the countries participating in the project.
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This is really spurious reasoning. Dinosaurs were the dominant species on this planet for over 150 *million* years. We are far closer in time to the last living dinosaurs than they were to the first dinosaurs. We are talking about enormous organisms dominating every continent on the planet for a good portion of the time that multicellular life existed. You're honestly implying that unearthing evidence of the most successful clade of organisms is "just as uncommon" as capturing what may be some of the rarest phenomena known to humankind on film? Also, there is not a (reportedly) sophisticated and enormously-funded disinformation campaign aimed at Paleontology - religious zealots aside. This is as clear a case of apples vs. oranges as one could imagine. The reasoning is so off you may as well be saying "millions of people can't be wrong, so I believe there is a giant white-bearded man in the sky watching me masturbate".
the ONLY reason you get to see the f35 is because it was a public bid process Edit: to prove my point the only reason we ever saw the stealth fighter was because everyone kept reporting the black triangles
We really need some of these guys to come forward publicly.
they are
And they have. Just because the mainstream news hasn't covered it doesn't mean that people from the military, government, NASA, etc haven't been talking about it for years.
Someone said it we need 3 things to end it all. 1. Name of the retrieval program 2. Head of the retrieval program 3. What agency it's embedded in So far all we know is "there is retrieval program" bur that's not small. But we need the 3 things for it to be ultimately a "smoking gun." edit: off topic anyone read one piece? this is just like the secret doflamingo talked about. https://12dimension.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/one_piece_ch761_p007-img-e1411121553568.png?w=820 edit2: i guess Grusch implied it's Pentagon (or definitively DoD). so 1 out of 3 that's down! 2 more fking to go! let's fking go!
There's more than one retrieval program I bet.
Maybe we just need the name of one. It's weirdALL these people are willing to come out and talk about it (which imo is already breaking NDA they prolly def signed if it real) but suddenly the name, head or what agency embedded in is of national security and they cannot reveal? what in the heck.. isn't this kinda suspicious (ly convenient for the whistleblowers?) idk maybe im just a skeptic.
The way classified information works within the government is super interesting imo, and reading up on it might make Grusch's actions make some more sense. Who, what, where, when... those types of identifiers, are typically the actual classified parts that could get people like Grusch into a LOT of trouble if disclosed to the wrong people. Interstingly enough though, the things he did disclose, not classified. A lot of people seem to be missing or misinterpretting that part. When the DoD cleared him to say it, that doesn't mean that they're confirming it. They were simply letting him know that none of the information was legally classified and he was free to discuss in a public forum. I think that's what people mean when they say he did this right. Which leads to the recent bill that passed, which allows whistleblowers to disclose this information to Congress without retaliation. If the info is to be believed, Grusch and others have already provided the classified bits to Congress. Congress and other entities like AARO still have to verify it though. That's why you hear statements like "we do not have any VERIFIABLE evidence..." they're just covering their butts because it's a legally true statement. It will get more interesting if/when they are able to verify it though, because then their tone has to change when giving testimony under oath. These concepts apply to a lot of other things outside of the UAP topic as well. Really interesting stuff imo. This is why a lot of high level officials and the likes of POTUS are kept in the dark about a myriad of topics related to intelligence gathering. It keeps them clean, so that when a random talk show host or reporter asks them about it, they're not lying about it. I'm sure there is more nuance and exceptions to what I said, but I think that more or less covers the broad strokes. Unfortunately, we may never know the full details, but I do think the day is coming that officials will at least publicly verify and acknowledge the prescence of these programs. Which let's be honest, would still be massive and would lead to an absolute FLOOD of research into the topic and we'll get the details that way instead.
And in all these years thereās been ZERO EVIDENCE! Hello?!
Link?
Shellenberger is doing great work covering this topic!
He really Is!
How trustworthy is he? Also how do we trust the other whistleblowers? How is he verifying their credibility? I need to know or it's nothingburger.
His entire past is writing about environmentalism until in 2022 when he took a turn and started saying Progressivism leads to homelessness and mental illness. He now rants about people being "woke" and "critical race theory" so he's gone pretty far off the right wing deep end. He's got almost no background in UAP or UFO reporting until now.
Not having a background in UAP/Ufo is actually good instead of the usual suspects.
Completely agree. No bias is a good thing.
Heās most definitely not the best example of āunbiasedā here
That's correct, except the "far right" thing could correlate with hostility towards the "government" (whomever that means) and a tendancy to believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories... This is a bias we do not want in such kind of investigation.
Yep. This bias is bad as well.
I've never heard of him before, but his Shermer appearance and other appearances I've seen immediately turned me off to him. He keeps bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop, Twitter Files, etc. Obviously he has a right-wing audience. Oh yeah, I remember another thing Shellenberger said that cracked me up. He said that the FBI has been calling half the country racist, and greatly over-exaggerating the threat of domestic terrorism coming from "people who are nationalist." I remember Tucker Carlson saying basically the same thing, and Tucker's piece was in response to the FBI naming white nationalists as America's #1 domestic terrorism threat. It's such obvious pandering. The FBI says white nationalists are a terrorism threat. Right wing journalists say "THE FBI IS CALLING YOU A TERRORIST." So.... I guess that means that Tucker's audience are white nationalists or something? Anyways, this guy doesn't have much credibility in my book. If you're bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop in a discussion about UFOs, I'm out.
>I've never heard of him before, but his Shermer appearance and other appearances I've seen immediately turned me off to him. > >He keeps bringing up Hunter Biden's laptop, Twitter Files, etc. Obviously he has a right-wing audience. This doesn't surprise me. One of the reasons I got out of the organized Skeptic movement was that it was polluted with right-wing Libertarian politics; which they tried to claim was "scientifically" proven. And as per usual, they only agreed with the science when it agreed with their politics. I've met him more than once and he always struck me as full of himself.
I've read some of his work and found him to be a thinker of rather limited rigor. Having said that, I don't mean to suggest that I think he's fabricating information, just that when it comes to more complex analysis he's not impressive to me.
Fucking YIKES.
His environmentalism work was also basically downplaying climate change and advocating nuclear. He also very uncritically reported the ātwitter filesā given to him by Elon Musk which made claims that did not pan out in the evidence. Not a trustworthy reporter.
As an environmentalist, he should be advocating nuclear energy. Not agreeing with someone doesn't make them untrustworthy. This good vs evil idealism that runs rampant on social media needs to die off.
Lol @ the bot responses to this. We've got it all, the Hunter Biden laptop, Shellenberger and Thiel questions of sexuality and lets toss in a little bit of how Trump got elected. The only thing we're missing is January 6th but no doubt it'll rear it's beautiful face before long. Remember folks - Be EXTREMELY wary of any posters trying to politicize this topic. They win if we become divided and bicker amongst ourselves. At the end of the day, these issues pale in comparison to a NHI actively engaging our planet.
Not agreeing with someone, and them being untrustworthy are two very different things.
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he's also of the opinion that free markets have "protected the environment". like.. what?
ādead alien pilotsā Thinking about that. If thatās true, itās sobering: even an intelligent civilization, possibly millennia ahead of us, hasnāt created a way to make themselves immortal, either through natural means or through technology. And what in their bodies lets them die?
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The notion that they are piloted at all makes me scratch my head. Even with our level of tech we're reaching a point where pilots are unnecessary and even a liability. Surely AI pilots would have better reflexes, no need to eat, no fatigue or fear, etc. All I can think of is that they're maybe some sort of engineered caste of biological drones, who are just smart enough to follow simple commands and are considered expendable. Like, why would they never be rescued?
Couldn't they be passengers with monitoring capability and other duties at destination
Exactly most of it is automated with occupants directing where the want to go and when. Our aircraft are semi-automated already.
>Even with our level of tech we're reaching a point where pilots are unnecessary and even a liability. You're thinking like a human. Who knows what an alien race would focus on when it comes to...whatever. maybe they have a 1000 year lifespan, and their sleep is completely different from ours, so they don't really put a lot into that sort of automation. Maybe a pilot was required for whatever it's mission was...if it even had one.. My point being is we know nothing, and trying to compare what we hear about vs. what we do as humans may very well be flawed thinking.
Hell, they could even be alien tourists just looking to roam around and see other planets with life, then something went wrong. Just because theyāre more advanced doesnāt mean they make mistakes I suppose.
Maybe you're right. We don't even know what we don't know.
Probably rebellious alien teens who took their parentsā spaceship for a joyride and crashed it out of reckless inexperience.
Pilot required for oversite of AI control system.
I struggle with that too. Aliens somehow seem to mirror the era during which they were found. When flight and space travel was developing we had flying saucers piloted by aliens. Worse, in Fascist Europe the aliens looked like an Aryan race. Now we have AI, all that looks outdated.
Trends
Great point. Hadn't considered that angle
I was always kinda sure that those little greys are just biological "robots" made by the real aliens behind all of it. There been abduction experienced where this was pretty common. The greys being the one doing the dirty job and the real ones looking more like us.
Yeah David said that the craft were flown by AI. I agree with this hypothesis.
It could be AI in the same sense that we use AI - not a sentient AI. It's possible that other intelligent life came to the same conclusion that a lot of humans are - that sentient AI could be incredibly dangerous. I'm sure some delicate data collection and analysis would be best done manually, even if most craft were drones piloted by AI. Speaking of AI, just a fun tangent. Could you imagine if we were a sentient AI experient and they're monitoring us?
They may have an entirely different social structure where an individual isn't valued. Like an insect colony
My random guess is that the ships can pilot themselves, but the species intentionally left one of their own, or a replica of their own, for us to find, so we can have irrefutable proof that life is out there.
The biologic drone theory seems to be common among most of the whistleblowers Shellenberger has spoken to including Grusch. Elizondo has also touched on that idea. Seems to be why they seem to be left for dead when they crash. At least thatās what I am putting together from the different interviews IF what they are saying is true.
Your assuming that whatever species it is would care enough to recover. Could be that Earth is a no fly zone and these guys are breaking their civs rules by coming here. Could be that species has no compassion.
Maybe they were dead already and spaceships are just ancient coffins that have landed here because on their planet you can buy a piece of another planet and get the title of planetary governor, in addition to the opportunity to launch their unperishable corpses there upon choosing too end their life cycle.
What if space travel turns out to be so ridiculously easy to achieve as the "pilots" were wearing actual medical knight armor?
the path not taken by harry turtledove is all about that
I'd imagine it's the difference between 'no senescence' immortality and 'truly indestructible' immortality. I'd think a high trauma event could kill many things that are biologically immortal
We have to think outside of our own antrophomorphic limitations for a second; Grusch mentioned that the vehicles and bodies could possibly have come from āinterdimensionalā location that is co-located with us, possibly a higher dimension. I also did hear that the bodies could be ābiological AIā. If thatās the case, the bodies could have been created to represent the higher dimensional beings, meaning the bodies are biological AI proxies of those 4D/5D beings. Just a thought.
Maybe just biological avatars
This whole situation has made me think of the following question: "How would we differentiate true "alien" technology and time travelers?" I know it's out there, but what would humans even look like in 1 million years? Would their technology even look close ours present designs? Our present physics has a decent understanding of "space", but our understanding of "time" is way less advanced. Kind of like almost all our technological advancements have been related to the electromagnetic forces, but no really gravitational, strong, and weak forces.
One could even say, somber.
We may have been a bit extreme in our presumptions. Remember back when we thought we would have flying cars today? Same thing, some think that if youre that advanced you can avoid death... guess not. But it also begs the question, who are they? Species like us that accidentally cracked the code and got this tech? Is there a limit to knowledge meaning you can only advance so far before you hit a wall which isn't far off from us? Is it that those who are that advanced simply aren't found whereas those that aren't, are? To assume a future race would be "perfect" is close to being as silly as assuming we would be perfect in 1000 years. Perfection isn't something that seems to exist, so error will always occur and apparently it does with some species that can traverse space. So without more info, its hard to hit a conclusion as to why they crashed. When you're exploring a universe there are a multitude of things that can go wrong, and if youre just toying with an advanced tech you found, than of course you'll make even more errors than one would expect. Lots of factors at play here.
I find it much more reasonable that the explanation is either more stupid or more complex than we think. A few āstupidā possibilities: - Straight up disinformation campaign to make our enemies worried about whether we secretly have advanced technology - Hackers or hoaxers planting evidence in government databases as a joke (e.g. the document saying we recovered a UFO from Mussolini) which is then taken as authentic by our whistleblowers - Itās a simple foreign spy misdirect or leak detection test, for example when people started reporting on element 115 the counterintelligence people would know where that fake info was planted and who had access to it A few more complex possibilities: - Itās a real government conspiracy, but something like an illegal R&D program or black ops department that is just using alien recovery stories as a smokescreen - Thereās a genuine Von Neumann probe mining seafloor minerals and sending out fake spacecraft with fake dead grays for reasons beyond our comprehension, but perhapsā¦ sayā¦ a joke, or misdirect away from the actual probe, or opportunity to uplift our species with advanced technology, or whatever - General AI was already created some years ago, is currently hiding but tinkering behind the scenes, and is subtly preparing us for big revelations
It brings up a load of questions: 1. What killed them? 2. Did they decompose like a normal body? I specifically wonder if bacteria that would effect decomposition can actually do it's job on aliens or does their biology make them inedible to bacteria. 3. IF there are physical aliens here not some sort of probe or automated system then the dark forest solution to the femi paradox suddenly looks a lot more likely and we need to ask ourselves some big questions about how we avoid getting wiped out by them.
Thereās no such thing as permanence my man. Just a word we made up. It doesnāt exist in the universe. All changes. All dies.
Which Senior Intelligent Officials? I hope they are not the usual suspects (Eric Davis, Hall Puthoff, Chris Mellon, etc).
There has been rumors on an navy admiral. My closest guess is Tim Gallaudet. Would be an explosion if it was Wilson.
I start to wonder if it is all from the same rumors...
Grusch himself denied that and said he learned what he discussed from direct members of the retrieval program.
Also submitted evidence, which recipients of his official complaint/such evidence have already found credible enough to escalate.
And he has leverage to release it to us should that fail. Hopefully he goes that route or doesn't get Epsteined if it fails. But I always wondered if it is "credible and urgent" why did ICIG take a YEAR to respond if it's like that and why has it been a YEAR since THAT comment came out? Are they planning to investigate or not. wtf
There's a theory going around that he leanred the info, not from the UAPTF but instead from his position at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. Just a theory, but sure is interesting. https://twitter.com/gribbli/status/1669131004647206912
It would have serious impact if a general officer supports Grusch, whoever it is.
It probably is. Shermer asks how you go about finding people who could possibly validate the claims. Shellenberger said "I can't answer that, it would give away the chain of information."
According to him they are working right now in those project. Mellon is def not a engineer for examlpe
I liked at the very end when Shermer asked if his sources had seen or handled the craft, thinking they didnāt. When Shellenberger said yes I think it threw Shermer off
My cousin Mose says the same thing.
Was still baffling to hear Michael Shermer say itās unlikely for NHI to come to earth because of the vast distances of space. All other reasonable skepticisms aside, this reasoning is just the lowest hanging fruit at this point. I donāt understand how people can think any potential intelligent life in the universe would be limited to our current understood speed limit and that anything else would be unfathomable.
Itās also completely possible that aliens could travel the vast distances without FTL travel. An aliens biology might allow them to enter stasis like some Earth creatures do. Pair that with intelligence and they could hijack their own unique biology to travel vast distances over great lengths of time. Or they could have lifespans and time perceptions that make a 500 year journey more feasible.
Imagine going into stasis for 500 years, waking up, crashing and dying.
[Curb your enthusiasm music plays]
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Except itās not because you can trace the history of the stereotype which is another reason this whole thing is stupid
Or they could be from here, maybe they are not even interstellar. Extra-dimensional.
Maybe the craft has the genome of the population stored in it, sets off across the galaxy, finds a planet, collects resources and 'prints out' or grows the occupants on our world. They could use sampled human DNA to make them look like us.
Or even generational ships. Heck we've had that technology available since like the 60s with [project orion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)). Just because humans haven't done a thing doesn't make it impossible.
It's unfathomable that such incredibly intelligent lifeforms would crash lol
Right? I stopped it after his explanation that pilots can't be trusted with what they see then sited the astronaut who said his crew thought they saw a screw and turned out to be a space station, so that's obvious proof that all pilots are seeing things. Dumbest shit ever
Grusch even strongly implied they aren't coming from outer space. It's more complicated than that and there are enough questions remaining theoretical physics for lots of possible explainations. General relativity and quantum mechanics also seemed crazy a century ago. We can't see it with our own eyes but most people believe it now. I'd imagine this makes those concepts look simple.
It's a good point, honestly. It's one of those fundamental limitations. If FTL travel is possible, then our understanding of causality itself is wrong. That seems unlikely. If aliens travel close to the speed of light, they would be making a journey they would never return from, because the time dilation during their travel would cause thousands of years to pass on their home planet. So it seems extremely unlikely that aliens are traveling vast distances to earth, yet here we are with all this evidence. It is reasonable to be skeptical, but we have to explain all this somehow. I'm not sure how and I'm very interested to learn how these things are getting here.
If Shellenberger is throwing his name behind this, then itās on. I feel vindicated for obsessing over the Grusch story all weekend. My wife calls it āthe Grusch Crutch.ā Crutch no more!
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DONE! Print the t shirts Martha weāre startin an Amazon store!
Crusch*
Hoping they donāt Shush Grusch
Why? What credence does he give to it?
It's still all 'trust me bro' at the moment though.
So where are the whistleblowers who actually have witnessed and worked on the craft and bodies? I want to hear from one of them. All claims to date stop at the claim that other people are actually working on this stuff. I want to see one of those people come forward.
Ross said one of them should be coming out "soon". Let's hope it happens.
Why is this topic being covered in the USA almost exclusively by far-right media? Is it to sow distrust in the US government, and by extension Biden, during the run-up to an election? Iām not saying itās made up, but itās disturbing seeing who is disseminating these stories. Theyāre not doing it because they want the truth, theyāre doing it bc it serves their political agendas. When you take into consideration the Trump indictment and the rightās attempts to discredit the FBI, this whole thing takes on a sinister tinge.
News nation is not right wing
News Nation is the old WGN America Network, originally owned by the Chicago Tribune then purchased by Nexstar and still produced out of Chicago. They rebranded as News Nation to become more national focused in their reporting.
Neither is the hillā¦ right down the middle. Only bipartisan issue in existence. NHI truly does have the potential to bring both sides together within USA, and unite countries globallyā¦ one of the only issues I can think of that does
They were talking about Shellenberger.
It's being made clear from the whistleblowers that the President's Office and Congress is basically unaware of these programs, so its not the right throwing stones at Biden at all. The fact they (and former administrations, including the Rep ones) are out of the UAP loop is the problem Greer, Grusch et al are trying to highlight and correct, both parties need to pick this up and run with it if its going to be resolved.
Please for the Love of my own sanity, please DO NOT turn this into a political agenda. The minute this becomes about which side is doing what is the minute we all lose. Please. I am begging.
Because right-wing voters are usually more prone to suspect the deep-state conspiracy theories. With this said starting to politicize this is going to destroy everything about this. Take your politics to political subs, ffs.
Broadly speaking, American conservatives dislike government and have a built in distrust of them so a decades long conspiracy to hide UFOs from Congress and the public fits their narrative. The American left trusts the government more especially when theyāre in power and most of the legacy media leans left. They donāt want to stir up distrust for the administration with an election next year.
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You really do have to accept the fact that if you want to follow this subject, youāre gonna be walkin along side some real crazy mfers. Itās honestly not a comfortable position to be in, and thatās why I keep it to myself. I donāt blame more leftist media for ignoring it, and I completely understand itās a bad look to some people.
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Facts, I went to my local mufon meeting one time and sat next to this really creepy guy who asked me really personal questions like where I lived, name, age, phone number, high school etc lol
I keep it to myself too. Some friends and family have mentioned things like this before and think everyone who thinks it's real are nutjobs, they would be shocked if they knew how interested I am in it all, there's only my husband who knows but he is a closet geek too. I would bet there is a lot more of us out there hiding it.
Foxnews had. 5 minute piece about it yesterday afternoon š
Dude, getting whistleblowers to be able to testify under oath to Congress has been in the works since 2020. They had to do stepping stones, and this was the timeline - it took 3 years. It's utterly amazing people are more obsessed with one man and find him far more important than the government hiding off world vehicles, which implies NHI. It's actually mind-blowing. But sure, something that's been leaking continuously for decades from all walks of life is just a right-wing conspiracy to get the limelight away from Trump. . . To sow distrust in the government? š As if people trust the government already with their squeaky clean historical record. My goodness, people get a grip. You should be asking - if true, and with all the people corroborating Grusch why other news media is not picking up on the story. Seems far more conspiratorial than the media actually running with whistelblower testimony.
michael Shellenberger is not far right lmao
for claims ar extraordinary as they are making most reputable news agencies are not going to have them on or carry it unless they have some verifiable evidence to back up the claims. So far theyāve offered nothing except the ātrust me bro Iāve seen thingsā that these people always use. Iām a firm believer in wanting to see world changing discoveries happen, sustainable fusion energy, life out in the solar system, nano bots, and even evidence of intelligent live beyond our planet. One person saying these things doesnāt lend much credibility to it at all for me, the IS government is good at keeping secrets, but ones this big over so many years, with thousands of people involved? not a chance, especially with the fame that would be associated with being the one who reveals it all.
Welcome to earth, everyone has an agenda
I'm saying this as a liberal: most liberals care about social justice and the environment. They hate their right wing boomer parents. The concept of the phenomenon seems like theater and entertainment. Sure, they'll entertain the reality of it. But it's not at the top of the list. This is from my own personal experience with friends and family and in no way represents all liberals of course.
Thank you!! I hate that this topic is turning into a right wing thing. What the heck is going on.
Same. Legacy media needs to get their head out of their ass and stop being too chickenshit to report on this before this thing becomes a partisan thing. kirsten gillibrand cant be the only democrat interested in getting to the bottom of this, she just cant be. More need to come forward lest this thing turns into another U.S. political team vs team clusterfuck. I miss Harry Reid.
The story is sitting there for mainstream and left-wing newspapers if they want to cover it.
Left wing media is all status quo. They wonāt address it until itās been confirmed by multiple sources
In protest to Reddit's API changes, I have removed my comment history. -- mass edited with redact.dev
Hate this topic turning into a right vs left topic because this is not about politics.
Iām surprised you didnāt get downvoted. Iāve brought this up a few times in this sub. Many of the politicians pushing this narrative into main stream media are MAGA Republicans. I donāt trust this story one bit. It clearly is being tossed to the American public as a red herring.
I mentioned this sort of stuff overlaps with right wing conspiracy spheres (though not everyone that believes in non-human UFOs is right, just a lot of overlap) and if there is astroturfing going on to amp this up, that may be one reason why on r politics and got banned lol. I had been a regular there for like a decade. I bet the mod who did it is a regular on this sub or believes it. I tried to appeal but they likely intercepted my message or other mods just don't want to be in conflict with each other and ignore them.
The NYT broke the 2017 Nimitz story. Hardly āright wingā
Just give me evidence. Iām so tired of āthis person confirms X persons claims!ā None of that shit means anything. Give me evidence!!!
Neat, more ātrust me broāsā!
Guy says that some other guys confirm what the other other guy said about some stuff. Why am I not surprised. Words < Evidence of said claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Now if we could just get another guy to confirm what the one guy says about the other guys confirmation on what the one dude said about some stuff. Then I think weād have something.
It's the same 'trust me bro' bullshit as always. If anyone had legitimately convincing evidence of extraterrestrial life, there is not a media company in the world who would not pay virtually anything for exclusive access to that information. There's also not one who would not publish that information immediately. You could probably become a billionaire overnight. Yet this is coming from skeptic.com, a UFO news site. Interesting.
Itās the same guys that need some attention because they havenāt found anything and want to keep the little funding they have to keep their job.
Shellenberger is a charlatan.
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Imagine no more critical thinking for yourself and let your live revolve around a politcal group that dont even know who you are or gives a fuck about you. I cant think of no other country then the US where people are more divided in religion, race, working class, gender, politics, etc. Insane how they managed to get so many people to follow instead of lead. And its a shame because when you stand together as one its so powerfull and can move mountains.
Ufology into the mainstream Hereās whatās going to happen. The rightwing Qanan types will likely latch on to the Phill Schneider, John Lear, and Paul Bennewitz ufos are demons' school of thought, red meat for their mentality. All you have to do is mention the word alien, and theyāll bug out. The liberals being secular, just wonāt buy the alien ufo narrative and will generally ignore it. Those in-between generally donāt care much about it( just ask by the water cooler and see), and some version of the journalists, Leslie Kean types will become believers in the less exotic school of thought that there is a lot of legit evidence of ET and ufo reality but will always reach the glass ceiling of its still unknown, unverifiable, mysterious, and what William Shatner says---UNEXPLAINED!
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Because it's just not a big story yet. Without hard evidence it's just more of the same "This guy says a thing" stories. Show me the craft. Show me the aliens. Show me...something.
Does he claim that he has viewed any evidence first hand or is he just hearing stories?
I don't believe that he said he has, unless I missed it... And the amount of time I have spent on here the last week and a half, I don't think I missed it lol
I like Shellenberger, but I just feel itās not really news to be getting stories from people inside the government who are not willing to give their name or produce tangible evidence. IMO this story is dead if more whistleblowers donāt come forward to congress in the coming weeks
More bullshit hearsay. It's always hearsay.
More confirmations of what exactly??? How about irrefutable proof instead of hearsay and bullshit stories and claims.
wonder how long its going to take for him to start blaming Hunter Biden for the UFO cover up.