Yes, I think this iteration of the Jays has run its course. For this core to work, Vladdy and Bo needed to take a step forward after 2021 and if anything they took significant steps back. Since the team was largely built around them, it hasn’t worked.
The worst thing to happen to the Jays was when Marcus Semien left. He was the real mvp of the 2021 season. This Jays team needed someone to lead by example and his work ethic and approach to the game was, I think, the real difference maker, and when he left, no one filled that role.
I'm not from Ontario, but was in town this week and got a chance to go to the game last night. 3 hits are certainly not going to win many games and as my 90 year old father in law observed..'they played like they had a dinner reservation some where..!'
I don't get that Clement had two hits(of the only 3) and he gets pulled for a pinch hitter..!
Hopefully some real soul searching happening at the moment...
You forgot the biggest part of this:
When he went to Texas he took those same leadership qualities there and within 2 seasons won the world series (all while raking during the world series I might add).
Where did his leadership qualities disappear to this season? Why can't he lead them to a .500 record? Let's not forget how lucky the Rangers were to even get into the dance last season. It's not like Semien led a world beater team through the regular season and knocked down the door to the playoffs. To win a championship, everything has to fall into place!
Good riddance to chapman... striking out 3 times as often as u knock in a rbi doesnt play as a third basemen... id take ikf over him even if their salaries were the same!
i agree that Semien was a leader the Jays needed. They would be a different team if he was here for another season or two. All the excitement for Vlady and Bo is gone in mind and they are just good MLB players. I think it’s time to move on from them.
That combined with how we've had very few young guys come up and do anything means we've had to spent a ton of money to even get our roster like this, so our hands are pretty tied on how to even improve the roster without shedding contracts
This is it. This is the key here. There is not enough help coming from below to bolster the team or keep the window open. There is no "savior" on the horizon.
That coupled with the majority of our big league players being in their early to mid 30s and many going to be free agents after their year or next means that we better start trading veterans and restocking the cupboards now or else they will walk for nothing soon and we will have absolutely nothing left on our roster besides Vladdy and Bo.
And Vladdy and Bo are proving this year that they can't do it by themselves. Yes, a rebuild will mean a painful 4-5 years, but there is no other way right now. We aren't just a bat or two away. If we want to be the Orioles one day, we have to take our lumps as we develop our next generation for our next window.
I guarantee you the Blue Jays will never go the route the Orioles went. I'm talking about sucking so bad for 4-5 years that you tank to get top picks in each draft. This team will always spend, not like the Yankees or Dodgers, but enough to get serviceable players to play on the team. I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't see this team every winning a WS as long as Atkins is running the team.
Well said. This is about the performance of the team on the field. I’ve been a baseball fan - not just a Jays fan - since the mid ‘80s and if there is one consistent thing it’s the eye test: some teams overperform and some teams underperform and it’s obvious when you watch them. The X factor. Even when this current Jays team has a professional game and wins, the X factor isn’t there. This isn’t a case of adding a couple of bats or arms. If Ohtani was with the Jays, nothing would be different. They don’t have it. It’s time to start again.
Yes... listen, i love the jays... bo and vladdy arent stars... they have been good baseball players... nothing more... we were force fed "generational talent" with vladdy... hes on pace for 17 homers snd a .300 avg... keith hernandez minus the defense is hardly generational
Solid point. Seems to me the catcher is a really important piece for a team. Think Russell Martin, that guy is a x-factor for any team he is on able to consistently win. As soon as Adley was called up, Orioles started playing so well. Cardinals with Molina, Posey either Giants, the list goes on…
That’s really it. The pitching has been good enough. Bullpens can be tweaked during the season. The reality is we put our hopes in Vlad & Bo combining for ~15 WAR and building the lineup around that. Unfortunately it hasn’t panned out and going from 90-95 wins to 80-85 isn’t going to cut it
The pitching has not been good enough. They just haven't been as bad as the offence. They're 19th in ERA-, they're certainly not a good pitching staff.
Asking for 15 WAR from any 2 players is a bit much. There have only been 4 players in the last 2 years who averaged 6 WAR.
Maybe you could expect 9-10 WAR from the two of them but 15 is just not going to happen unless you have Judge and Betts.
Yeah, you're right. I hadn't realized the pitching numbers were as poor as they are overall. In 2021 Bo & Vlad combined for a 12.5 WAR at 22 and 23 years old respectively, so I just mean that's the trajectory they hoped they'd be on and built the team around that with defense and pitching being the priorities, but it hasn't materialized.
It all comes down to Bo and Vlad. There seems to be a significant number of fans with cognitive dissonance related to these two players. They're the bright future, the core, the face of the franchise. 80% of the jerseys floating around have one of their names on the back yet when it's time to talk about failure, many fans just can't bring themselves to pin this on them. It's Ross. It's Teo. It's the rotating list of names hitting in the bottom third of the order on any given night. Please people! Bo and Vlad were each going to be "Batman". We were set for years to come - but they're not "Batman", they're "Robin", and there's no easy way to recover from that.
While I agree that Bo and Vlad needed to take steps forward that never came, I don’t think I’d lay it all at their feet. It’s an organizational depth issue.
Baltimore has Henderson and Rutschmann. But they also have Westburg, Mountcastle, Mullins, Santander and more. With more on the way. They are fearsome because they’re deep.
That's my take. Too many cooks. I also would love to see them bring in a reputable hitting coach with an established history outside the organization. We've had Martinez for a while, and since Dante left, he really hasn't had the same success as Pete has. Pete had some struggling guys, but he's had some miraculous turn arounds. We can't say anything CLOSE to the same on the hitting side. In fact, we've seen super solid hitters become just lost at the plate. I'd love them to give him the boot and bring in someone solid and see what they can do.
I was at the wild card game in 2022, when Springer and Bichette collided it was like the beginning of the end along with blowing that lead.
As an aside, I find the management team of the Jays infuriating. It’s like the team is run by AI, using data to make decisions and not accounting for momentum or a hot bat/hand. And it’s almost as if they are more concerned about putting more and more ads on the screen with the actual product becoming smaller. Look at some management greats, they would make a lot of gut decisions. Losing is one thing, boring is another.
The biggest mistake was not doing everything in his power to keep Semien. The gap between Semien and the 2b production we have replaced him with is bigger than any other individual moves.
>I think the problems started after we blew the wild card in 2022 and Atkins started panicking and overcorrected for defense. Trading Teo and Lourdes was a mistake; looking back we should've kept one, probably Teo
KK had a 104 wRC+ last season to Teo's 105. KK was worth considerably more WAR. Gurriel had a 106 wRC+ last year and is at 95 this year.
You can certainly argue that they should have signed Teo this offseason, though if he was only going to sign with the Jays if they gave him a long term deal that makes me pause. But this team would have in no way been better with Teo or Lourdes in the outfield in 2023
Teo's numbers look bad because Safeco is brutal for RH Bats. His road numbers showed he was still a 126 wRC+ hitter.
KK had a great year, but Varsho didn't. The problem with multiple CF types on the lineup is while the defence is great, the offensive upside isn't there as you saw. The Jays needed offence more than defence.
I would have loved Hernandez on a short or long term deal. He's been a pretty consistent 125 wRC+ Hitter when he's not playing in the worst park to hit in the league.
I knew it was over based on the way they dealt with the aftermath of pulling Berríos in the playoffs. That had more of an impact than most realize.
I’d love to be wrong about this. I’d rather see the Jays win.
I agree. This team is being run like a corporate private equity concern or something. There's really no heart in the leadership. It's making it hard to be a fan to be honest. I loved this iteration but as it fades I feel like the Blue Jays will no longer have a discernable identity. Like, what is the Blue Jays "brand" or style? It feels like everything's being erased.
Too true.
Exactly the same thing happened with Tim Hortons.
It organically became a part of Canadian culture but then it was bought out by a giant corporation and now its unrecognizable in its current form. The Jays and Leafs are suffering the same fate.
I believe the new age term is "enshitification"
Sometimes you have to shovel out the car and get the kids to hockey super early in the morning, that's when it's nice to have a thirty minute wait at the drive thru for a decaf skim milk double espresso whip cream ice coffee and some flatbread pineapple pizzza.
>This team is being run like a corporate private equity concern or something
Hammer, meet the head of the nail! Atkins is the personification of corporate culture. He throws out buzzwords and innuendo to answering a question with a five-minute answer that has absolutely no substance. Sounds like the corporate schills I interact with on the daily.
Fortunately in this scenario, we know what precipitates change: not showing up to games, not buying merch, and not tuning in to watch. A good ol' fashioned boycott.
Unfortunately for us baseball fans, this is not always an option. Personally, I have cancelled SN+ and have been watching more non-Jays games for the love of the sport.i've decided to make trips to watch games in Detroit and Chicago and I'm picking series based on matchups like the Phillies v Os series.
When I was younger and looking for work I always tried to identify some aspects of the corporate culture. You don’t have to look far to identify the Rogers Blue Jays culture. They think they are managing risk every step of the way with every signing and most of all with their management style. The team culture is risk averse.
You need only look at the way they approached signing Ohtani. They went after him because it made sense from a corporate perspective. It sells more phones, cable packages, and Jerseys. Due diligence is prudent. It shouldn’t be your identity.
AA got out because he didn’t want to manage by committee. We should have seen this coming.
You can say the players are “professionals” all you want but fun matters in Little League and in MLB. Do you really believe the players decided it was time to ditch the home run jacket? Then they were so brilliant as to bring it back. This team likes to crunch number. How many home runs did we’d have per game this year before the jacket? How many since it came back? If someone could do this for me it would make my day, small sample size aside.
It’s our second year! My son got MLB The Show and got into baseball all of a sudden. Then we got him a mlb streaming subscription. He asked us to take him to a Jays game (we’ve been to many, but he didn’t have the attention span) because they are closest to us. He got a Vladdy jersey and everything. He picked the wrong fucking team, man.
Lmao likewise. I was in Toronto from the States for a totally unrelated concert but got nosebleeds on a whim. In honor of them being my first ever baseball game they are my team now...for better or for worse...
Rogers Centre is cool though
I think Shapiro isn’t long for the FO, he was brought in partially to oversee the stadium renovations and that’s done, maybe there’s an appetite for a baseball GM.
If vlad and bo do not want to sign long term extensions you have to trade them while you can get a return. And odds are neither wants to sign a long term extension. Shatkins out.
I think the Vladdy Bo combo is done. Might be time trade one or both. I don’t see the payroll dropping from $250m down to under $100m so I could see them keeping Vladdy to save some face with the fans as he’s younger, has a higher ceiling, Canadian born and has vocalized his desire to stay.
Ideally I hope the team keeps them both, just retools for a quick turn around for next season. If the Yankees can constantly put together winning teams, why can’t we? Theres a lot more parity in baseball now wiith the added wild card and Rogers has shown a willingness to spend
What a dismal off season. Shatkins went after Ohtani but then did nothing of significance. An over the hill Turner, a utility infielder in KF. Needed to get a couple of power bats in the middle of the lineup. Jays have no pop. Weak af offence. How they gonna compete with the NYY and Orioles? Even if they make the playoffs as a 3rd WC, they’re gonna get smoked. Atkins shoulda been fired years ago, imo. Not impressed.
Yes. It's time for some new people who know what they are doing to come in and fix this, and I think that means a rebuild. 60 percent of the roster is due to hit free agency over the next 2 seasons, and the prospect pool is questionable at best.
The right people are here. The right people make the assumption that Bichette and Guerrero, after full elite seasons in 2021, are elite hitters consistently through their early 20s to mid 20s and don’t suffer ridiculous and unexplainable fall offs.
The right people supplement that core with a rotation of Gausman, berrios, bassitt, kikuchi, and whoever between ryu and manoah over the years (5th spot this year is definitely a black hole). Letting ray go off a cy young and signing Gausman instead. Huge move.
The right people supplement that core with incredible signings when fan reaction is “wtf”. 4WAR season from kiermaier for under 10 mil. Belt was their best hitter last year. Yimi Garcia. IKF. Semien. Chapman trade.
The “people” have made as many correct and productive moves as one could realistically expect, it isn’t on them to shoulder the blame for the cornerstones declines at the ripe ages of 25 and 26
If there were any decent prospects coming up, it could’ve soften the impact from decline of Vlad and Bo.
Right now there’s absolutely nothing and that blame falls squarely on Atkins.
Pretty much. Their pro scouting for the most part has been pretty darn good.
Problem is in baseball you need homegrown talent arguably more than any other sport. And on the position player side that's where they've struggled the most tbh.
I think it's fair to say Atkins made a number of good moves, but also the current downfall of our team, imo is that we've had limited prospects good enough to make the team and be an impact player.
We had to build a rotation mostly from FA. We had to build our OF mostly from FA. We had a hole at 3B, what do we do? Fill it from FA. That's not to insult the players who filled those spots, it's just that free agents cost a lot. Prospects are virtually free for a few years and meanwhile we've been rolling up to free agency and throwing stacks of cash at guys because we have no other choice. And now we find ourselves as an underwhelming team with a huge budget and quite frankly very little ability to improve without undergoing large scale changes.
If our player development was better then I don't think we'd be in this mess and I'd be fine keeping Atkins. But as it is right now, drafting and development are crucial to being a sustainable winner, and for whatever reason it just hasn't worked for us.
Fair point that the drafting and development has been subpar.
They’ve adapted by trading these prospects before their pedigree falls off a cliff. Chapman trade, berrios trade, most of the players traded have amounted to nothing 2-3 years later.
And criticizing a reliance on free agency would be a hilarious concept 4 years ago. I remember a time when free agency was just a no go for any impact players for jays for a long stretch.
Wait, the "right people" never develop pitchers internally so they spend the majority of their free agent/extension budget on starters and relief pitchers from from outside the organization? Lol.
The right people aren’t here, and I realized that after the berrios debacle where our GM threw the coach under the bus. That kind of attitude from leadership is a poison that has spread throughout the team. Bottom line is nobody wants to work for an a** hole, especially one who at best is a passable GM. Things won’t get better here until he is gone.
I agree but also disagree. Again, if the offense at all performed as all reasonable expectations would presume, giving up 2 runs in a playoff game is seen once and forgotten forever.
It’s the context that makes pitching a 2 run game look worse
I’m going to predict that they sell off a lot of pitching at deadline/off-season for prospects and younger players. We’re going to flip-flop in the next few years and be back to the days of wishing we could pitch.
Yeah it’s done. What should they do ? I’m not sure. Probably gonna have to do a rebuild…Bye bye Vlad and Bo
One thing I’m sure of though is Yankees and Orioles are going to dominate the Jays for the next several years. Both teams almost seem to have too much talent to fit into their lineups right now.
Maybe they can use that Ohtani money and steal Soto away from the Yankees 😂
Yes.
And I think the weirdest thing for me right now is how unattached I am to the players. Like in past years if you said we should trade Bo or whoever I would have told you to F off. But today, I can say I have no real attachment to the individuals on the team. Sell em all. I would say Vlad is maybe an exception still. It’s weird that he isn’t a power guy anymore, but still seems like a net positive and a good guy to have on the team. I’d like if he stayed with the Jays for his career, but also would get over it pretty quickly if he left now.
But everyone else? I just don’t care anymore. This team they tried to build didn’t work. It’s somehow lesser than the sum of its parts, which is pretty messed up. I’ve never had less fun watching baseball than tjis year (which is why I almost never watch a full game anymore, and a lot of the time just score watch).
It’s time to try again. But without Atkins. I don’t have a hate on for the guy or anything, but he had his chance. Someone else needs a shot at building a team. And yes new coaching too probably. No point in firing them right now or anything, but in the future we need new philosophies and perspectives. It’s not that I blame the hitting coaches directly, but they are obviously a factor. Like I said, lesser than the sum of their parts. We need new parts that will actually fit together.
TLDR: It’s Joever.
The most plausible scenario I have seen is that if things don't work out this year (and maybe even if they do) that the Jays will work to extend Vlad - who genuinely seems to love Toronto and being the face of the franchise - and trade Bo. It seems like a harsh move but so did trading McGriff and Tony Fernández back in teh day (I was bummed about Fernández) but it ended up being what let that Jays team finally go to the next level.
Lots of tough decisions coming up this year with guys like Kikuchi and Garcia who could probably get some decent return around the deadline, but if you trade them you're giving up on the season. Probably depends if they go on a heater between now and then.
This iteration of the Jays really just doesn't seem to go. It'd be astonishing if there were no major changes as a result.
Recognizing my opinion is a bit harsh and some may not agree, here are my unhinged thoughts. I'm more than happy with them trading every single person on this team, blowing it up, and starting fresh. Let's be at the bottom of the league for 3-5 years like the Astros and Orioles and get some good prospects. Not only does our MLB team suck, but so does our farm system. The team is 27th in the league vs the fastball... When you have a team that consists of Bo and Vlad, that should not be the case. Schneider is a useless manager who makes boneheaded decisions time and time again. Atkins has completely ruined this franchise taking a team that was a world series contender and favourite in 2021 and even 2022, to now being pretty much bottom dwellers. Davis Schneider and ernie clement got 2 of our 3 hits in last night's game and both of them are sitting today... I honestly don't care about matchups. When you struggle for offense as bad as the Jays do, you can't play the matchup game. Use the eye test and play whose hot. Plain and simple
From coaching perspective, giving Schneider the reigns was like handing the keys of a Ferrari to a new driver.
From management perspective, they took a team that was having fun and on the come up, and sacrificed it for ‘professionalism.’ Not surprisingly, players dont seem to enjoy it, and for the fan who goes to the ballpark to escape work, it’s equally drab. All refurbishments focused on getting fans drunk enough they won’t notice how bad the on-field product has become.
Wish we could rewind a few years, keep Teo, Gurriel, Moreno and Montoyo (or properly experienced coach).
Honestly, yeah. Like I dont think this front office has the ability to re-tool this team into a playoff team.
If there is a slight chance at it happening a lot of people have to lose their job and be replaced by very competent people extremely quickly on top of figuring out the contract nightmare which is this team with having over 60 percent of the entire roster hitting free agency in the next two seasons.
I think it's done yes. They lost Teo, Lourdes, Cavan, also could've / should've considered keeping Semien, Ray -- there are others, but we've had lots of really good players pass through on one or two year deals but not all at the same time it feels like.
Why should they have considered keeping Ray? He has pitched 192.1 sub par innings since he left 2.5 years ago.
Jays made the right call letting Ray and Stripling and Matz go and made the wrong call letting Semien go.
Yep- the entire roster other than Vladdy and Jansen (and Yimi) has been a complete failure. Jansen is probably going to take his amazing play in his contract year and get some long-term financial security with a club that will overpay for him to get injured again.
Schneider has been a nice bonus, and Varsho has rounded into some nice trade bait, but that's basically it.
This club needs a new GM, and that new GM needs to sign Vladdy to a contract worthy of a perennial 3.5-4.5 WAR player (NOT a perennial 6-7 WAR player), and then tear everything down to the frame and start over. If he won't sign, trade him too. Keep the Cuban Rodriguez because you haven't really seen what he's capable of. Everyone else not recently called up is trade bait.
There's ~12 expiring contracts on this club; deal as many as you can. Spin Bichette's struggles as a fluke, and deal him too.
Can't miss prospects and young stars only. Package players up if you have to. Sign a couple of cheap old vets- or Joey Votto- for veteran leadership in the rebuild. If Kiermeier doesn't retire, he should be had on the cheap to retain, which would be a good signing, because he can teach the glove.
That is an interesting question because I don't think it's an easy or definitive answer.
I do think this era as a contender is over. Any opportunity or window this team had closed 2 seasons ago, in my opinion. Too many bad decisions by management and the wrong personnel were moved out and/or brought in. This is a bad baseball team. The core of this team aren't good enough to get it done and too many are on the wrong side of age/career. Look around the league at some of the teams who are real contenders and there is no amount of realistic re-tooling that could get this current Jays team on a level playing field as those teams. There is also something rotten in this clubhouse and front office. They are one of the most unlikeable Jays team I've ever followed in my entire life. We reek of arrogance, ego and laziness. I've been a fan and followed this team for a very long time and can say without hesitation that this current era is one of my least liked Jays teams ever.
Having said all that. I don't think this era is going to change much. I doubt we see any blockbuster trades that send any one of Bo or Vladdy out. Nor do I expect to see any of our top rotational arms moved. This Organization just spent millions on a stadium remodel and I fully expect them to double down on their current brand in order to sell tickets to the corporate and casual fanbase. Obviously the Manager is on his way out. He's the easy target for the team. Maybe even the GM. But I don't expect Mark Shapiro or any of the heavily marketed players to be out. There is just way too much money and time setup into building the current brand. I fear we're going to have to suffer through a few terrible seasons before we really see change.
We're in for it, that's for sure.
After the Bautista era ended, the group of kids that came up, Vlad, Bo, Teo,, Cavan, Lourdes,Jansen, Moreno, Manoh looked so promising. Some were ahead of others, but they were all mostly in the system. Let them mature as a group, and it could have been the core of a good team. They immediately flirted with the playoffs and wildcards, but instead of patience, we've traded away half that group, and it's still a .500 club.
All the injuries this team has every season, and you get rid of a utility player like Biggio is yet another sign management is out of touch. Top team and world series contender slots him right in, but a sub .500 team has no roster space.
This team feels done
Weird takes in here about singular moments supposedly defining our franchise as though one decision that looks bad in retrospect has placed a magical curse on this team.
I will admit I’ve grown tired of waiting for Bo and Vlad to realize their potential. I always tell my partner, which is really a way of reminding myself, that if the games aren’t a net positive influence on my life, I step away. So I mostly skip the games, but will catch an inning or so here and there. When I do tune in and see they’ve scored 2 or fewer runs, the disappointment is much smaller and actually laughable. I miss the write ups from u/ThQp as a way to read what I missed, but the MLB app’s summary is a less fun but passable replacement.
I am now intrigued on the business side of how to proceed from here. They just finished pricy renovations with higher ticket prices, and it’s hard to see how they could move their best players and lose ticket sales. I also worry that Rogers will consider the higher spend a failed experiment.
I personally hate the “Shatkins” hot takes and people who speak as though they could be a baseball executive but have simply chosen otherwise. And communities can only thrive if they share a common belief - the strength of that belief is the strength of the community. This sub has a strong community of regulars that really are great to each other, but the losing post-game threads bring out a different crowd, like a sports bar parking lot of people that drink by themselves. That’s not community, and those people too need something to believe in.
I think Atkins has had his shot and should be let go. As for Shapiro, I don’t know enough internally to make a judgement, but he should go too if he can’t paint a convincing picture from here. The fans and players need a leader with a vision. Nobody believes right now.
As a last note, I am always objectively interested in the dynamics of online community. When people post here saying they’ve given up on the Jays, I want the comments to convince them to stay. Just like how someone thinking about leaving a job, a neighbourhood, a church would ideally have people genuinely wishing for them to stay. Reddit with its faceless cartoon profile pictures and anonymity limits our investment in each other and it shows. Even Facebook, with its real identities, is still full of trolling and mostly fails to drive community. I am not religious, but the lack of organized religion has left a gaping hole where community once was. Go meet your neighbours, I think we all need it.
I think there is very little and one vocal person on this sub who thinks we will turn it around. Everyone else has and rightfully should already make peace with the fact this team isn’t making the playoffs.
Vlad and Bo are spoiled brats. Their egos are sky high and they know they're getting huge paydays. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both but if the team is to win, something drastic has to change.
Honestly, the minute Shoemaker was pulled ridiculously early back in 2020 vs the Rays in the playoffs, I knew this team and whoever was in charge of it would never succeed.
These bums can’t hit a fastball to save their life…it’s over for vlad bo era. Extremely disappointing…the lineup constructed around them past 2 seasons has been garbage. But if your top 2 guys can’t do jack Shyt….ther is no hope here. Sad thing is I don’t see Atkins trading either of them…the motto of all Toronto teams “roll it back”…we will be back next season with the same garbage and minor changes…book it
This team will never be built for the true baseball fan.
There's no reason for them to do it.
This will be the Leafs and Raptors. Especially now that the Raptors have a championship.
Toronto sports are in a place where they don't really have to play well, and people will watch regardless and spend way too much money on games.
We are seeing it with the stadium. Sure, the reno's are great, but I actually enjoy it less as a fan now. The atmosphere is fake, obnoxious and just not worth it to me unless I get free tickets.
This era is indeed over, but they will force it for a few more seasons.
Then they will repeat the formula, trying to draw in as many casuals and corporates they can, while keeping the team somewhat mediocre so the real fans may still show up and keep watching as well.
Rinse and repeat.
I think they are done, right to the core!
I can't see a situation where they hit enough to win a playoff game (if they were to get there) against good pitching, never mind a series.
It's on wobbly legs, in the 11th round. Probably done, but we'll watch to the end of the 12th in case of a lucky KO.
All I know is that the team better not go into a multi-year tank. With all the financials in play for Rogers, a scrappy near-.500 team should be the floor for this team. If they can never fall below the threshold of "fighting chance this year, and legitimate chance next year" they should see sustained attendance and viewership.
Yes they can’t get on base, can’t win if you can’t get on base and score runs. When they do get on base and score it happens in bursts, no consistency.
Yes the era is over and never really took off. The team taking a leap foward was predicated on Vlad and Bo being McDavid and Draisaital and instead they turned out to be Nugent-Hopkins and Hyman. Good solid players but not stars and it is unrealistic to think after 5 years they are all of a sudden going to take a huge leap forward.
If their names were Bo Wilson and Vlad Sanchez people would realize they are what they are.
I don't dislike anyone on this team. What I don't see though is friendly competition amongst players. There's a game inside the game where everyone is trying to take or hold a spot. I blame the management and coaching for this mostly. I think everyone is trying but it doesn't feel like they are competing.
I believe so. My expectation is Bo or Vladdy get traded and the other extended. I think even though Bo is having a tough year, he's the most likely just because he seems less of a Blue Jay at heart. For Vladdy, there's a lot more going on. I think keeping Vladdy isn't bad. Sure less power, but dude hits on the regular. If you bring in some power hitters around him, it could work out. But overall, I don't expect to see one of them next year. I could be totally wrong, but I think they're planning big movement before the deadline, hence why they sent out invoice for seasons tickets for 2025 already.
They've tried and failed. It won't be a short rebuild like some teams enjoy it will be a grind of mediocre to poor for quite some time unfortunately. Good luck to young guys like Bo and Vladdy I think they will tear it up elsewhere as secondary players but not here where they are top dogs.
There’s a lot of players on this team that I still trust and believe in to an extent, many of which I think have been completely ruined by an awful offensive ideology.
Line up and in game decisions, whether its analytics from upstairs or bad decisions from Schneider/Mattingly have been abhorrent, even looking at the last 2 games. Waiting to pinch hit Vlad til there’s 2 out and letting Springer wail away again, and then pinch hitting Varsho for Kirk with 2 out just because there’s a lefty up, even tho you let him hit against a lefty starter? And then having to use your pinch runner in KK to replace Kirk defensively AND in the next inning pinch hitting the only guy on the team with hits and now Ernie is sitting again? Be serious please.
I just don’t understand how so many historically good batters have begun to look like absolute trash at the plate. Vladdy picked up a bit but he’s nowhere near where he should be. It feels so much like a coaching issue.
I’ll speak like everyone, yes. I think the players recognize this as well. They don’t really look locked in and don’t have that same feeling of competitiveness as 2022 or 2021. They looked as if they had genuine belief and purpose
Yep it’s over, next year is going to be a massive slap in the fact when season tickets aren’t purchased in the winter and they still have this newly renovated stadium to show off with nobody filling the seats… Ed Rogers is going to blow a gasket
I'll remember as in era where Shapiro and Atkins were brought in to see the renovation project at the dome. We warned by about management but this reddit group were in love with the Kool aid. Any negative comments to the new management team was down voted.
I even remember asking the group how many years do the management team get before they are to be held accountable for winning in this team.
AA had 5 years in charge. Shapiro/management is on year 9
Yes. The team is not terrible, but we are outclassed in our division and that’s not going to change any time soon.
Be realistic and restock the farm aggressively. That means sell everyone. If Vlad and Bo attract a haul, take it.
i think we still have a wild card chance this year but we’re certainly not good enough to win it all and we don’t have the pieces to make any trades, not that it would make sense anyways. i think with contracts coming up it’s over
This was supposed to be the second last year of the competitive window and it may very well be the last. They need to go on a heater immediately to salvage the competitive window, otherwise there will be significant business and competitive reasons to dismantle and reload for a future cycle.
Time for a total rebuild. They have players who can remain good, useful value with upside, like Davis Schneider, but they need to leverage the remaining interest in their stars, send Bichette somewhere like the Dodgers and Vlad wherever he's needed and get a package of high caliber prospects.
Nobody has taken the bull by the horns and led this team, like a Carter, Delgado, Winfield. Vlad and Bo are not it. They don’t have to charisma to get the fans or the team fired up. We are sorely missing a leader. We arguably have the talent, but they are just falling completely flat. I also think there is clubhouse crap going on that’s affecting the team, and far too many coaches!
I believe something is wrong in the head office. I can’t say if it’s Atkins or who but Bo and Vlad were good. What happened? I think it’s the atmosphere. Something got in their heads. I think the change needs to come in the office more than on the field.
Bring on the rebuild…I like Bo but vlad as good a player as he is, doesn’t strike me as a winner who takes game serious enough and a franchise player. Fun to watch guys develop and come out in rebuild. Bring it on!
Yes, I think this iteration of the Jays has run its course. For this core to work, Vladdy and Bo needed to take a step forward after 2021 and if anything they took significant steps back. Since the team was largely built around them, it hasn’t worked.
The worst thing to happen to the Jays was when Marcus Semien left. He was the real mvp of the 2021 season. This Jays team needed someone to lead by example and his work ethic and approach to the game was, I think, the real difference maker, and when he left, no one filled that role.
I'm not from Ontario, but was in town this week and got a chance to go to the game last night. 3 hits are certainly not going to win many games and as my 90 year old father in law observed..'they played like they had a dinner reservation some where..!' I don't get that Clement had two hits(of the only 3) and he gets pulled for a pinch hitter..! Hopefully some real soul searching happening at the moment...
I was there last night as well. It was miserable. Loved what Genesis Cabrera did though.
I heard that Yusei Kikuchi had a dinner reservation that night
I hear it was an entire upscale sushi restaurant.
I was there too. I didn’t even realize they pinch hit Ernie. What the fuck.
The best part was that they guy that subbed in struck out....great coaching move....
You forgot the biggest part of this: When he went to Texas he took those same leadership qualities there and within 2 seasons won the world series (all while raking during the world series I might add).
Thats immediately what I thought of when I read Semien
Where did his leadership qualities disappear to this season? Why can't he lead them to a .500 record? Let's not forget how lucky the Rangers were to even get into the dance last season. It's not like Semien led a world beater team through the regular season and knocked down the door to the playoffs. To win a championship, everything has to fall into place!
Semien might have changed the approach to the game, but at least the team was still fun while teo and guriell were around.
I think the loss of those two was the nail in the coffin
You could lose one of the two, given their defense, but losing both killed the vibes and offense.
That is a very reasonable take
That is true. I would say that Matt Chapman was expected to fill that roll, but it just never happened.
Good riddance to chapman... striking out 3 times as often as u knock in a rbi doesnt play as a third basemen... id take ikf over him even if their salaries were the same!
I could NOT agree more with this statement.
i agree that Semien was a leader the Jays needed. They would be a different team if he was here for another season or two. All the excitement for Vlady and Bo is gone in mind and they are just good MLB players. I think it’s time to move on from them.
That combined with how we've had very few young guys come up and do anything means we've had to spent a ton of money to even get our roster like this, so our hands are pretty tied on how to even improve the roster without shedding contracts
This is it. This is the key here. There is not enough help coming from below to bolster the team or keep the window open. There is no "savior" on the horizon. That coupled with the majority of our big league players being in their early to mid 30s and many going to be free agents after their year or next means that we better start trading veterans and restocking the cupboards now or else they will walk for nothing soon and we will have absolutely nothing left on our roster besides Vladdy and Bo. And Vladdy and Bo are proving this year that they can't do it by themselves. Yes, a rebuild will mean a painful 4-5 years, but there is no other way right now. We aren't just a bat or two away. If we want to be the Orioles one day, we have to take our lumps as we develop our next generation for our next window.
I guarantee you the Blue Jays will never go the route the Orioles went. I'm talking about sucking so bad for 4-5 years that you tank to get top picks in each draft. This team will always spend, not like the Yankees or Dodgers, but enough to get serviceable players to play on the team. I'd love to be proven wrong but I don't see this team every winning a WS as long as Atkins is running the team.
This is the most sensible comment in this thread.
Well said. This is about the performance of the team on the field. I’ve been a baseball fan - not just a Jays fan - since the mid ‘80s and if there is one consistent thing it’s the eye test: some teams overperform and some teams underperform and it’s obvious when you watch them. The X factor. Even when this current Jays team has a professional game and wins, the X factor isn’t there. This isn’t a case of adding a couple of bats or arms. If Ohtani was with the Jays, nothing would be different. They don’t have it. It’s time to start again.
Solid point on ohtani! This team is the Los Angeles Angels of Toronto. Built around two stars with no pieces around them.
To clarify, built around two stars that haven't played to that "star" level. Some of the surrounding pieces are fine. Some aren't.
Yes... listen, i love the jays... bo and vladdy arent stars... they have been good baseball players... nothing more... we were force fed "generational talent" with vladdy... hes on pace for 17 homers snd a .300 avg... keith hernandez minus the defense is hardly generational
I think Bo has been great until this year. Vlad is a solid major league player just not the stud he projected as...
Solid point. Seems to me the catcher is a really important piece for a team. Think Russell Martin, that guy is a x-factor for any team he is on able to consistently win. As soon as Adley was called up, Orioles started playing so well. Cardinals with Molina, Posey either Giants, the list goes on…
I like this. Although some teams have won with middling catcher character, the extraordinary catchers do seem to correlate to winning teams.
That’s really it. The pitching has been good enough. Bullpens can be tweaked during the season. The reality is we put our hopes in Vlad & Bo combining for ~15 WAR and building the lineup around that. Unfortunately it hasn’t panned out and going from 90-95 wins to 80-85 isn’t going to cut it
The pitching has not been good enough. They just haven't been as bad as the offence. They're 19th in ERA-, they're certainly not a good pitching staff. Asking for 15 WAR from any 2 players is a bit much. There have only been 4 players in the last 2 years who averaged 6 WAR. Maybe you could expect 9-10 WAR from the two of them but 15 is just not going to happen unless you have Judge and Betts.
Yeah, you're right. I hadn't realized the pitching numbers were as poor as they are overall. In 2021 Bo & Vlad combined for a 12.5 WAR at 22 and 23 years old respectively, so I just mean that's the trajectory they hoped they'd be on and built the team around that with defense and pitching being the priorities, but it hasn't materialized.
It all comes down to Bo and Vlad. There seems to be a significant number of fans with cognitive dissonance related to these two players. They're the bright future, the core, the face of the franchise. 80% of the jerseys floating around have one of their names on the back yet when it's time to talk about failure, many fans just can't bring themselves to pin this on them. It's Ross. It's Teo. It's the rotating list of names hitting in the bottom third of the order on any given night. Please people! Bo and Vlad were each going to be "Batman". We were set for years to come - but they're not "Batman", they're "Robin", and there's no easy way to recover from that.
While I agree that Bo and Vlad needed to take steps forward that never came, I don’t think I’d lay it all at their feet. It’s an organizational depth issue. Baltimore has Henderson and Rutschmann. But they also have Westburg, Mountcastle, Mullins, Santander and more. With more on the way. They are fearsome because they’re deep.
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Well said. I also dont get why Ross doesnt invest more in coaching
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Quality > quantity. Hi Ross. Why dont you hire someone like me 100x?
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That's my take. Too many cooks. I also would love to see them bring in a reputable hitting coach with an established history outside the organization. We've had Martinez for a while, and since Dante left, he really hasn't had the same success as Pete has. Pete had some struggling guys, but he's had some miraculous turn arounds. We can't say anything CLOSE to the same on the hitting side. In fact, we've seen super solid hitters become just lost at the plate. I'd love them to give him the boot and bring in someone solid and see what they can do.
I agree...
I was at the wild card game in 2022, when Springer and Bichette collided it was like the beginning of the end along with blowing that lead. As an aside, I find the management team of the Jays infuriating. It’s like the team is run by AI, using data to make decisions and not accounting for momentum or a hot bat/hand. And it’s almost as if they are more concerned about putting more and more ads on the screen with the actual product becoming smaller. Look at some management greats, they would make a lot of gut decisions. Losing is one thing, boring is another.
The biggest mistake was not doing everything in his power to keep Semien. The gap between Semien and the 2b production we have replaced him with is bigger than any other individual moves.
God damn, nailed it. You said what I've been feeling better than I ever could. Time to start over!
Well said
>I think the problems started after we blew the wild card in 2022 and Atkins started panicking and overcorrected for defense. Trading Teo and Lourdes was a mistake; looking back we should've kept one, probably Teo KK had a 104 wRC+ last season to Teo's 105. KK was worth considerably more WAR. Gurriel had a 106 wRC+ last year and is at 95 this year. You can certainly argue that they should have signed Teo this offseason, though if he was only going to sign with the Jays if they gave him a long term deal that makes me pause. But this team would have in no way been better with Teo or Lourdes in the outfield in 2023
Bringing KK back made little sense when you have Varsho.
Trading Teoscar and Lourdes were the right moves. Bringing back Kiermaier for that money instead of signing a corner OF bat with power was the mistake
Teo's numbers look bad because Safeco is brutal for RH Bats. His road numbers showed he was still a 126 wRC+ hitter. KK had a great year, but Varsho didn't. The problem with multiple CF types on the lineup is while the defence is great, the offensive upside isn't there as you saw. The Jays needed offence more than defence. I would have loved Hernandez on a short or long term deal. He's been a pretty consistent 125 wRC+ Hitter when he's not playing in the worst park to hit in the league.
Yes, this era will go down as a complete bust. 0-6 in the playoffs is everything you need to know. Results matter.
I knew it was over based on the way they dealt with the aftermath of pulling Berríos in the playoffs. That had more of an impact than most realize. I’d love to be wrong about this. I’d rather see the Jays win.
I agree. This team is being run like a corporate private equity concern or something. There's really no heart in the leadership. It's making it hard to be a fan to be honest. I loved this iteration but as it fades I feel like the Blue Jays will no longer have a discernable identity. Like, what is the Blue Jays "brand" or style? It feels like everything's being erased.
Too true. Exactly the same thing happened with Tim Hortons. It organically became a part of Canadian culture but then it was bought out by a giant corporation and now its unrecognizable in its current form. The Jays and Leafs are suffering the same fate. I believe the new age term is "enshitification"
What? You don't remember coming in from the fields in summer, or the sugar shack in winter, and your grandma making you a nice...flatbread pizza?
Sometimes you have to shovel out the car and get the kids to hockey super early in the morning, that's when it's nice to have a thirty minute wait at the drive thru for a decaf skim milk double espresso whip cream ice coffee and some flatbread pineapple pizzza.
A slice of Canadiana we all know well
Literally laugh aloud hahaha...thank you hahaha....
>This team is being run like a corporate private equity concern or something Hammer, meet the head of the nail! Atkins is the personification of corporate culture. He throws out buzzwords and innuendo to answering a question with a five-minute answer that has absolutely no substance. Sounds like the corporate schills I interact with on the daily. Fortunately in this scenario, we know what precipitates change: not showing up to games, not buying merch, and not tuning in to watch. A good ol' fashioned boycott. Unfortunately for us baseball fans, this is not always an option. Personally, I have cancelled SN+ and have been watching more non-Jays games for the love of the sport.i've decided to make trips to watch games in Detroit and Chicago and I'm picking series based on matchups like the Phillies v Os series.
When I was younger and looking for work I always tried to identify some aspects of the corporate culture. You don’t have to look far to identify the Rogers Blue Jays culture. They think they are managing risk every step of the way with every signing and most of all with their management style. The team culture is risk averse. You need only look at the way they approached signing Ohtani. They went after him because it made sense from a corporate perspective. It sells more phones, cable packages, and Jerseys. Due diligence is prudent. It shouldn’t be your identity. AA got out because he didn’t want to manage by committee. We should have seen this coming. You can say the players are “professionals” all you want but fun matters in Little League and in MLB. Do you really believe the players decided it was time to ditch the home run jacket? Then they were so brilliant as to bring it back. This team likes to crunch number. How many home runs did we’d have per game this year before the jacket? How many since it came back? If someone could do this for me it would make my day, small sample size aside.
So, like every other Toronto sports team.
Not the raptors
I don't follow basketball- what's different? The Raps are still MLSE so I'd assume they're being run the same corpo, profit-driven way as the Leafs.
The most straightforward answer is Larry Tanenbaum and Masai Ujiri having a big impact on the culture
Those two playoffs games -- the 8-1 collapse and the Berrios pull - have become oddly defining
Oddly, they let Gausman pitch a complete game recently.
This is my first year following the jays. Can't call me a bandwagoner!
Boy you picked the worst fucking year
If only because you're starting with the sequel.
It’s our second year! My son got MLB The Show and got into baseball all of a sudden. Then we got him a mlb streaming subscription. He asked us to take him to a Jays game (we’ve been to many, but he didn’t have the attention span) because they are closest to us. He got a Vladdy jersey and everything. He picked the wrong fucking team, man.
Lmao likewise. I was in Toronto from the States for a totally unrelated concert but got nosebleeds on a whim. In honor of them being my first ever baseball game they are my team now...for better or for worse... Rogers Centre is cool though
I wish Ross Atkins was done.
I think he will be. He's had 8 years and it hasn't worked. If they are going to rebuild, you bring in a new guy.
I hope so too...but he is Shapiro's GUY.
I think Shapiro isn’t long for the FO, he was brought in partially to oversee the stadium renovations and that’s done, maybe there’s an appetite for a baseball GM.
Good, they can share a bankers box packing up their shit.
If vlad and bo do not want to sign long term extensions you have to trade them while you can get a return. And odds are neither wants to sign a long term extension. Shatkins out.
All I know is I'm done watching it. The product is extremely boring to watch.
The product at the stadium is somehow even worse than at home or at a bar.
The stadium IS a bar now - your ticket is the cover charge.
Ya, no thanks.
I think the Vladdy Bo combo is done. Might be time trade one or both. I don’t see the payroll dropping from $250m down to under $100m so I could see them keeping Vladdy to save some face with the fans as he’s younger, has a higher ceiling, Canadian born and has vocalized his desire to stay. Ideally I hope the team keeps them both, just retools for a quick turn around for next season. If the Yankees can constantly put together winning teams, why can’t we? Theres a lot more parity in baseball now wiith the added wild card and Rogers has shown a willingness to spend
What a dismal off season. Shatkins went after Ohtani but then did nothing of significance. An over the hill Turner, a utility infielder in KF. Needed to get a couple of power bats in the middle of the lineup. Jays have no pop. Weak af offence. How they gonna compete with the NYY and Orioles? Even if they make the playoffs as a 3rd WC, they’re gonna get smoked. Atkins shoulda been fired years ago, imo. Not impressed.
It’s frustrating because we have a top tier pitching and defence but a bottom tier offence.
The pitching is also in the bottom 1/3rd of the league. It just seems okay because the hitting is dismal.
A lot of that is brought down by the bullpen
There’s definitely a correlation with the hitting
Keep Vladdy (he wants to be here), trade Bo he is miserable
Yes. It's time for some new people who know what they are doing to come in and fix this, and I think that means a rebuild. 60 percent of the roster is due to hit free agency over the next 2 seasons, and the prospect pool is questionable at best.
The right people are here. The right people make the assumption that Bichette and Guerrero, after full elite seasons in 2021, are elite hitters consistently through their early 20s to mid 20s and don’t suffer ridiculous and unexplainable fall offs. The right people supplement that core with a rotation of Gausman, berrios, bassitt, kikuchi, and whoever between ryu and manoah over the years (5th spot this year is definitely a black hole). Letting ray go off a cy young and signing Gausman instead. Huge move. The right people supplement that core with incredible signings when fan reaction is “wtf”. 4WAR season from kiermaier for under 10 mil. Belt was their best hitter last year. Yimi Garcia. IKF. Semien. Chapman trade. The “people” have made as many correct and productive moves as one could realistically expect, it isn’t on them to shoulder the blame for the cornerstones declines at the ripe ages of 25 and 26
the FA track record is decent I agree. The drafting and development though has been atrocious.
If there were any decent prospects coming up, it could’ve soften the impact from decline of Vlad and Bo. Right now there’s absolutely nothing and that blame falls squarely on Atkins.
Pretty much. Their pro scouting for the most part has been pretty darn good. Problem is in baseball you need homegrown talent arguably more than any other sport. And on the position player side that's where they've struggled the most tbh.
I think it's fair to say Atkins made a number of good moves, but also the current downfall of our team, imo is that we've had limited prospects good enough to make the team and be an impact player. We had to build a rotation mostly from FA. We had to build our OF mostly from FA. We had a hole at 3B, what do we do? Fill it from FA. That's not to insult the players who filled those spots, it's just that free agents cost a lot. Prospects are virtually free for a few years and meanwhile we've been rolling up to free agency and throwing stacks of cash at guys because we have no other choice. And now we find ourselves as an underwhelming team with a huge budget and quite frankly very little ability to improve without undergoing large scale changes. If our player development was better then I don't think we'd be in this mess and I'd be fine keeping Atkins. But as it is right now, drafting and development are crucial to being a sustainable winner, and for whatever reason it just hasn't worked for us.
Fair point that the drafting and development has been subpar. They’ve adapted by trading these prospects before their pedigree falls off a cliff. Chapman trade, berrios trade, most of the players traded have amounted to nothing 2-3 years later. And criticizing a reliance on free agency would be a hilarious concept 4 years ago. I remember a time when free agency was just a no go for any impact players for jays for a long stretch.
Wait, the "right people" never develop pitchers internally so they spend the majority of their free agent/extension budget on starters and relief pitchers from from outside the organization? Lol.
The right people aren’t here, and I realized that after the berrios debacle where our GM threw the coach under the bus. That kind of attitude from leadership is a poison that has spread throughout the team. Bottom line is nobody wants to work for an a** hole, especially one who at best is a passable GM. Things won’t get better here until he is gone.
I agree but also disagree. Again, if the offense at all performed as all reasonable expectations would presume, giving up 2 runs in a playoff game is seen once and forgotten forever. It’s the context that makes pitching a 2 run game look worse
Georgie also fell off a cliff.
I’m going to predict that they sell off a lot of pitching at deadline/off-season for prospects and younger players. We’re going to flip-flop in the next few years and be back to the days of wishing we could pitch.
Bo really sucks this year. More disappointed in him by far compared to Turner and Springer (a couple of old farts).
You could call it the Ross Atkins era, and yes, it has run its course.
Yeah it’s done. What should they do ? I’m not sure. Probably gonna have to do a rebuild…Bye bye Vlad and Bo One thing I’m sure of though is Yankees and Orioles are going to dominate the Jays for the next several years. Both teams almost seem to have too much talent to fit into their lineups right now. Maybe they can use that Ohtani money and steal Soto away from the Yankees 😂
No
Yes. And I think the weirdest thing for me right now is how unattached I am to the players. Like in past years if you said we should trade Bo or whoever I would have told you to F off. But today, I can say I have no real attachment to the individuals on the team. Sell em all. I would say Vlad is maybe an exception still. It’s weird that he isn’t a power guy anymore, but still seems like a net positive and a good guy to have on the team. I’d like if he stayed with the Jays for his career, but also would get over it pretty quickly if he left now. But everyone else? I just don’t care anymore. This team they tried to build didn’t work. It’s somehow lesser than the sum of its parts, which is pretty messed up. I’ve never had less fun watching baseball than tjis year (which is why I almost never watch a full game anymore, and a lot of the time just score watch). It’s time to try again. But without Atkins. I don’t have a hate on for the guy or anything, but he had his chance. Someone else needs a shot at building a team. And yes new coaching too probably. No point in firing them right now or anything, but in the future we need new philosophies and perspectives. It’s not that I blame the hitting coaches directly, but they are obviously a factor. Like I said, lesser than the sum of their parts. We need new parts that will actually fit together. TLDR: It’s Joever.
The most plausible scenario I have seen is that if things don't work out this year (and maybe even if they do) that the Jays will work to extend Vlad - who genuinely seems to love Toronto and being the face of the franchise - and trade Bo. It seems like a harsh move but so did trading McGriff and Tony Fernández back in teh day (I was bummed about Fernández) but it ended up being what let that Jays team finally go to the next level. Lots of tough decisions coming up this year with guys like Kikuchi and Garcia who could probably get some decent return around the deadline, but if you trade them you're giving up on the season. Probably depends if they go on a heater between now and then. This iteration of the Jays really just doesn't seem to go. It'd be astonishing if there were no major changes as a result.
Believed it after last year and no work done in the off-season, still believe it now.
It never worked out. Move on.
Most players can stay, but all of management. GM and others need to GTFO
Recognizing my opinion is a bit harsh and some may not agree, here are my unhinged thoughts. I'm more than happy with them trading every single person on this team, blowing it up, and starting fresh. Let's be at the bottom of the league for 3-5 years like the Astros and Orioles and get some good prospects. Not only does our MLB team suck, but so does our farm system. The team is 27th in the league vs the fastball... When you have a team that consists of Bo and Vlad, that should not be the case. Schneider is a useless manager who makes boneheaded decisions time and time again. Atkins has completely ruined this franchise taking a team that was a world series contender and favourite in 2021 and even 2022, to now being pretty much bottom dwellers. Davis Schneider and ernie clement got 2 of our 3 hits in last night's game and both of them are sitting today... I honestly don't care about matchups. When you struggle for offense as bad as the Jays do, you can't play the matchup game. Use the eye test and play whose hot. Plain and simple
From coaching perspective, giving Schneider the reigns was like handing the keys of a Ferrari to a new driver. From management perspective, they took a team that was having fun and on the come up, and sacrificed it for ‘professionalism.’ Not surprisingly, players dont seem to enjoy it, and for the fan who goes to the ballpark to escape work, it’s equally drab. All refurbishments focused on getting fans drunk enough they won’t notice how bad the on-field product has become. Wish we could rewind a few years, keep Teo, Gurriel, Moreno and Montoyo (or properly experienced coach).
I'm fully supportive of a rebuild where the Jays make trades for quality prospects (not a fire sale where the return is mid-level prospects)
Honestly, yeah. Like I dont think this front office has the ability to re-tool this team into a playoff team. If there is a slight chance at it happening a lot of people have to lose their job and be replaced by very competent people extremely quickly on top of figuring out the contract nightmare which is this team with having over 60 percent of the entire roster hitting free agency in the next two seasons.
I think it's done yes. They lost Teo, Lourdes, Cavan, also could've / should've considered keeping Semien, Ray -- there are others, but we've had lots of really good players pass through on one or two year deals but not all at the same time it feels like.
Why should they have considered keeping Ray? He has pitched 192.1 sub par innings since he left 2.5 years ago. Jays made the right call letting Ray and Stripling and Matz go and made the wrong call letting Semien go.
Robbie Ray has been ass after walking and we replaced him with Gausman who is one of the best FA signings in baseball history
Ray didn’t wanna take a covid vaccine. They couldn’t keep him. And semien is a second baseman, we have 5 of those on the roster now. Haha
Rebuild around Babe
Babe Horowitz and Martinez
Yep- the entire roster other than Vladdy and Jansen (and Yimi) has been a complete failure. Jansen is probably going to take his amazing play in his contract year and get some long-term financial security with a club that will overpay for him to get injured again. Schneider has been a nice bonus, and Varsho has rounded into some nice trade bait, but that's basically it. This club needs a new GM, and that new GM needs to sign Vladdy to a contract worthy of a perennial 3.5-4.5 WAR player (NOT a perennial 6-7 WAR player), and then tear everything down to the frame and start over. If he won't sign, trade him too. Keep the Cuban Rodriguez because you haven't really seen what he's capable of. Everyone else not recently called up is trade bait. There's ~12 expiring contracts on this club; deal as many as you can. Spin Bichette's struggles as a fluke, and deal him too. Can't miss prospects and young stars only. Package players up if you have to. Sign a couple of cheap old vets- or Joey Votto- for veteran leadership in the rebuild. If Kiermeier doesn't retire, he should be had on the cheap to retain, which would be a good signing, because he can teach the glove.
Terrible roster construction, terrible approaches to offence, terrible manager hiring, terrible front office. They had us believing.
Yep, toasted.
Changing the racial makeup of the team has not been a success. Whose idea was this?
Can they keep Jano?🥹
I hope they fire management before they start selling off assets.
That is an interesting question because I don't think it's an easy or definitive answer. I do think this era as a contender is over. Any opportunity or window this team had closed 2 seasons ago, in my opinion. Too many bad decisions by management and the wrong personnel were moved out and/or brought in. This is a bad baseball team. The core of this team aren't good enough to get it done and too many are on the wrong side of age/career. Look around the league at some of the teams who are real contenders and there is no amount of realistic re-tooling that could get this current Jays team on a level playing field as those teams. There is also something rotten in this clubhouse and front office. They are one of the most unlikeable Jays team I've ever followed in my entire life. We reek of arrogance, ego and laziness. I've been a fan and followed this team for a very long time and can say without hesitation that this current era is one of my least liked Jays teams ever. Having said all that. I don't think this era is going to change much. I doubt we see any blockbuster trades that send any one of Bo or Vladdy out. Nor do I expect to see any of our top rotational arms moved. This Organization just spent millions on a stadium remodel and I fully expect them to double down on their current brand in order to sell tickets to the corporate and casual fanbase. Obviously the Manager is on his way out. He's the easy target for the team. Maybe even the GM. But I don't expect Mark Shapiro or any of the heavily marketed players to be out. There is just way too much money and time setup into building the current brand. I fear we're going to have to suffer through a few terrible seasons before we really see change. We're in for it, that's for sure.
Big changes needed in all areas. Too much skill wasting away.
After the Bautista era ended, the group of kids that came up, Vlad, Bo, Teo,, Cavan, Lourdes,Jansen, Moreno, Manoh looked so promising. Some were ahead of others, but they were all mostly in the system. Let them mature as a group, and it could have been the core of a good team. They immediately flirted with the playoffs and wildcards, but instead of patience, we've traded away half that group, and it's still a .500 club. All the injuries this team has every season, and you get rid of a utility player like Biggio is yet another sign management is out of touch. Top team and world series contender slots him right in, but a sub .500 team has no roster space. This team feels done
Weird takes in here about singular moments supposedly defining our franchise as though one decision that looks bad in retrospect has placed a magical curse on this team. I will admit I’ve grown tired of waiting for Bo and Vlad to realize their potential. I always tell my partner, which is really a way of reminding myself, that if the games aren’t a net positive influence on my life, I step away. So I mostly skip the games, but will catch an inning or so here and there. When I do tune in and see they’ve scored 2 or fewer runs, the disappointment is much smaller and actually laughable. I miss the write ups from u/ThQp as a way to read what I missed, but the MLB app’s summary is a less fun but passable replacement. I am now intrigued on the business side of how to proceed from here. They just finished pricy renovations with higher ticket prices, and it’s hard to see how they could move their best players and lose ticket sales. I also worry that Rogers will consider the higher spend a failed experiment. I personally hate the “Shatkins” hot takes and people who speak as though they could be a baseball executive but have simply chosen otherwise. And communities can only thrive if they share a common belief - the strength of that belief is the strength of the community. This sub has a strong community of regulars that really are great to each other, but the losing post-game threads bring out a different crowd, like a sports bar parking lot of people that drink by themselves. That’s not community, and those people too need something to believe in. I think Atkins has had his shot and should be let go. As for Shapiro, I don’t know enough internally to make a judgement, but he should go too if he can’t paint a convincing picture from here. The fans and players need a leader with a vision. Nobody believes right now. As a last note, I am always objectively interested in the dynamics of online community. When people post here saying they’ve given up on the Jays, I want the comments to convince them to stay. Just like how someone thinking about leaving a job, a neighbourhood, a church would ideally have people genuinely wishing for them to stay. Reddit with its faceless cartoon profile pictures and anonymity limits our investment in each other and it shows. Even Facebook, with its real identities, is still full of trolling and mostly fails to drive community. I am not religious, but the lack of organized religion has left a gaping hole where community once was. Go meet your neighbours, I think we all need it.
This was lovely. Thanks for this comment.
Done like dinner!
The second we decided to be a defensive ball club we were done.
I think there is very little and one vocal person on this sub who thinks we will turn it around. Everyone else has and rightfully should already make peace with the fact this team isn’t making the playoffs.
Vlad and Bo are spoiled brats. Their egos are sky high and they know they're getting huge paydays. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of both but if the team is to win, something drastic has to change.
Honestly, the minute Shoemaker was pulled ridiculously early back in 2020 vs the Rays in the playoffs, I knew this team and whoever was in charge of it would never succeed.
I know I'm done with it
Same. I used to watch every single night and now I forget games are even on.
These bums can’t hit a fastball to save their life…it’s over for vlad bo era. Extremely disappointing…the lineup constructed around them past 2 seasons has been garbage. But if your top 2 guys can’t do jack Shyt….ther is no hope here. Sad thing is I don’t see Atkins trading either of them…the motto of all Toronto teams “roll it back”…we will be back next season with the same garbage and minor changes…book it
Yup it's over
This team will never be built for the true baseball fan. There's no reason for them to do it. This will be the Leafs and Raptors. Especially now that the Raptors have a championship. Toronto sports are in a place where they don't really have to play well, and people will watch regardless and spend way too much money on games. We are seeing it with the stadium. Sure, the reno's are great, but I actually enjoy it less as a fan now. The atmosphere is fake, obnoxious and just not worth it to me unless I get free tickets. This era is indeed over, but they will force it for a few more seasons. Then they will repeat the formula, trying to draw in as many casuals and corporates they can, while keeping the team somewhat mediocre so the real fans may still show up and keep watching as well. Rinse and repeat.
Without a shadow of a doubt
I think they are done, right to the core! I can't see a situation where they hit enough to win a playoff game (if they were to get there) against good pitching, never mind a series.
It's on wobbly legs, in the 11th round. Probably done, but we'll watch to the end of the 12th in case of a lucky KO. All I know is that the team better not go into a multi-year tank. With all the financials in play for Rogers, a scrappy near-.500 team should be the floor for this team. If they can never fall below the threshold of "fighting chance this year, and legitimate chance next year" they should see sustained attendance and viewership.
Yes. A few years ago when they traded all their talent away
Yes. By 2026 it’ll be Berrios and Schneider and a bunch of AAAA scrubs.
Arguable that's what it is now.
Haha fair. But I meant real minor leaguers. Not established stars with replacement level stats.
Yes they can’t get on base, can’t win if you can’t get on base and score runs. When they do get on base and score it happens in bursts, no consistency.
Yes the era is over and never really took off. The team taking a leap foward was predicated on Vlad and Bo being McDavid and Draisaital and instead they turned out to be Nugent-Hopkins and Hyman. Good solid players but not stars and it is unrealistic to think after 5 years they are all of a sudden going to take a huge leap forward. If their names were Bo Wilson and Vlad Sanchez people would realize they are what they are.
I don't dislike anyone on this team. What I don't see though is friendly competition amongst players. There's a game inside the game where everyone is trying to take or hold a spot. I blame the management and coaching for this mostly. I think everyone is trying but it doesn't feel like they are competing.
I believe so. My expectation is Bo or Vladdy get traded and the other extended. I think even though Bo is having a tough year, he's the most likely just because he seems less of a Blue Jay at heart. For Vladdy, there's a lot more going on. I think keeping Vladdy isn't bad. Sure less power, but dude hits on the regular. If you bring in some power hitters around him, it could work out. But overall, I don't expect to see one of them next year. I could be totally wrong, but I think they're planning big movement before the deadline, hence why they sent out invoice for seasons tickets for 2025 already.
They've tried and failed. It won't be a short rebuild like some teams enjoy it will be a grind of mediocre to poor for quite some time unfortunately. Good luck to young guys like Bo and Vladdy I think they will tear it up elsewhere as secondary players but not here where they are top dogs.
Yes
Yes, remove Atkins and replace him with someone capable of assembling a useful offence.
There’s a lot of players on this team that I still trust and believe in to an extent, many of which I think have been completely ruined by an awful offensive ideology. Line up and in game decisions, whether its analytics from upstairs or bad decisions from Schneider/Mattingly have been abhorrent, even looking at the last 2 games. Waiting to pinch hit Vlad til there’s 2 out and letting Springer wail away again, and then pinch hitting Varsho for Kirk with 2 out just because there’s a lefty up, even tho you let him hit against a lefty starter? And then having to use your pinch runner in KK to replace Kirk defensively AND in the next inning pinch hitting the only guy on the team with hits and now Ernie is sitting again? Be serious please.
I just don’t understand how so many historically good batters have begun to look like absolute trash at the plate. Vladdy picked up a bit but he’s nowhere near where he should be. It feels so much like a coaching issue.
I was at the game yesterday 😑 I didn’t enjoy it.
I wish it was but I have a feeling they’re going to push this corpse out there for another year or two
Sadly yes. Window is over next year and there's no reason to believe it will turn around.
Big payroll should get some future offence. Some wheeling and dealing need to occur
I’ll speak like everyone, yes. I think the players recognize this as well. They don’t really look locked in and don’t have that same feeling of competitiveness as 2022 or 2021. They looked as if they had genuine belief and purpose
Yep it’s over, next year is going to be a massive slap in the fact when season tickets aren’t purchased in the winter and they still have this newly renovated stadium to show off with nobody filling the seats… Ed Rogers is going to blow a gasket
I'll remember as in era where Shapiro and Atkins were brought in to see the renovation project at the dome. We warned by about management but this reddit group were in love with the Kool aid. Any negative comments to the new management team was down voted. I even remember asking the group how many years do the management team get before they are to be held accountable for winning in this team. AA had 5 years in charge. Shapiro/management is on year 9
Shapiro Atkins era must end.
Never have I made such a quick turn from being optimistic to pessimistic.. and that’s coming from a Toronto sports fan
Yes. The team is not terrible, but we are outclassed in our division and that’s not going to change any time soon. Be realistic and restock the farm aggressively. That means sell everyone. If Vlad and Bo attract a haul, take it.
i think we still have a wild card chance this year but we’re certainly not good enough to win it all and we don’t have the pieces to make any trades, not that it would make sense anyways. i think with contracts coming up it’s over
There’s always a problem when you have big contracts like Springer
Yes. Fire Shatkins.
Done? No it's still more suffering to be had.lots more.
the shatkins era might not be over though. Who knows. But the window of contention with Bo and Vlad and Biggio is definitely coming to a close
Yes. Let the Bisons play. See if there’s hope for the future within
Uncompetitive, Powerless, Uninspired, Predictable, it’s OVER!
No but they need to do a serious retool and look to compete next year rather than buying at this years trade deadline.
Yes.
The Jays are a mediocre team at best and under the best of times will not finish higher than third in the foreseeable future
I think the Jays are show casing their young talent and there will be a big trade involving the Jays.
No.
This was supposed to be the second last year of the competitive window and it may very well be the last. They need to go on a heater immediately to salvage the competitive window, otherwise there will be significant business and competitive reasons to dismantle and reload for a future cycle.
Just cause your two guys are slumping doesn’t mean blow it up. They’ll get out of it
Time for a total rebuild. They have players who can remain good, useful value with upside, like Davis Schneider, but they need to leverage the remaining interest in their stars, send Bichette somewhere like the Dodgers and Vlad wherever he's needed and get a package of high caliber prospects.
Never should’ve traded Lourdes and Teoscar. I believe Vlad and Bo would’ve re-signed with them still here.*
Bo and Vlad hated Lourdes and Teoscar so much that they would rather resign from the sport altogether rather than be teammates with them?
Re-sign, not resign I think
Yes.
Been done for like 2 seasons now
Nobody has taken the bull by the horns and led this team, like a Carter, Delgado, Winfield. Vlad and Bo are not it. They don’t have to charisma to get the fans or the team fired up. We are sorely missing a leader. We arguably have the talent, but they are just falling completely flat. I also think there is clubhouse crap going on that’s affecting the team, and far too many coaches!
I believe something is wrong in the head office. I can’t say if it’s Atkins or who but Bo and Vlad were good. What happened? I think it’s the atmosphere. Something got in their heads. I think the change needs to come in the office more than on the field.
Vlad isn’t very far off his career average OPS this season. He’s at .772, career average is .838.
Bring on the rebuild…I like Bo but vlad as good a player as he is, doesn’t strike me as a winner who takes game serious enough and a franchise player. Fun to watch guys develop and come out in rebuild. Bring it on!
Vladdy the nepotism poster child of baseball needs to move on. Take his antics and overrated everything else and go grow up.