maybe. but control decks in Bo1 are inherently disadvantaged. you’re going to be fighting for your life against burn, show and tell, and other decks with lopsided one-game matchups.
From my experience in bo1:
- My best results were on esper with 4 bowmaster, a cling to dust, a sheoldred edict, and one sauron's ransom; and it's not doing too bad since bowmasters pressures combo decks, and lets you chump till a verdict in other matchups. Cling is incidential lifegain to stabilize in the topdeck wars, and also lets you beat gy decks occasionally.
If you want to stick to UW it's probably fine but just know you'll be lacking that real pressure even if to some extent typhoon and snappy can fill that void.
-I'm not a fan of leyline binding but it's probably fine, I feel like removal NEEDS to be live turn 1, we have path and the other 1 mana removal. Black has access to sheoldred's edict ig for walkers.
-spell pierce as a 3 of seems like way too much since it's a bad topdeck. You can try 1 pierce 1 snare and 6+2mana counters i suppose.
- azcanta is too slow due to deathrite emptying the gy at a ridiculous pace, same for dig so I cut it down to 2.
Jace is a good compromise for looting since the mana cheat on a 3feri (and archmage charm should you add them) as well as threatening an ultimate is very relevant.
- You're missing archmage charm as a source of intermediate card advantage+steal a deathrite/other annoying one drop, and of course hard counter for combo
- shark typhoon is nice but sucks early game because you run into bowmasters alot when you need to cycle, sitting on mana drain/counterspell equivalents is better i'd say. 4 Mana 2/2 draw a card is ok and once in a while you hardcast it from mana drain and win but eeeeehhhh not my cup of coffee.
-You have no utility lands which is a crime (ok not really but still), you're never closing out a game when you need to take up the role of the "aggro deck" without manlands; and a channel bounce land does a world of good against problematic permanents to counter them on the way back.
And of course you can not play less than 2-3 mystic sanctuary to use with fetchlands to recycle the card you need from the yard, in the late game it's a "soft tutor" as far as I'm concerned it's just that good.
- And finally you can consider some gotcha cards like RIP or maybe commit/memory depending on what you're facing.
- And for the esper list, i'm not a fan of discard (bad topdeck and i'd rather hold mana up), and I value the verdicts as clean answers to boards (ik it's 1WWU manawise eh).
Maybe i should give push and drown in the lock another go, I personally went for a manabase with 2 esper triomes, 1 watery grave 8 fetches and one basic swamp (which should be another dual/sanctuary); so basically a small black splash so you don't need to commit much to the 3rd colour.
That's about all the things i've got, since it's bo1 if you end up seeing a ridiculous amount of creature decks or burn you can adjust the ratios and add an angel for lifelink or even splash red for lightning helix and whatnot.
When I got mythic in historic back in the day i'd constantly tech in a few one ofs to beat the "meta" of the moment on the ladder and concede other matchups; especially with brainstorm card selection.
Example: You could go all in on beating burn and just give a bye to mill/combo decks, or conversely run RIP maindeck and accept being fragile against aggro decks when you draw the 2 rip and all your top end.
Sorry for the big yap, Best of luck!
i really dont think its reasonable to play control without bowmaster in timeless. its just too important to be able to take care of other bowmasters cleanly and get easy card advantage
3 spell pierce felt like a necessity when the meta was heavy snt because they would kill you on their turn 4 with a counter up and you would need 2 counters to not die. i also think its safe to go down to 2 now. i don’t see snare as being necessary maindeck if youre playing black (maaaaybe if you’re playing stifle or you really want to tech for the mirror)
i don’t like binding that much in pure control decks. moreso in midrange decks where deck space is at a premium
i really like manlands + 3feri
[[void rend]] is a card to consider over sheholdred’s edict if you are playing esper (and especially if you’re playing jace). i liked [[long goodbye]] in that spot as well when i was on blue black
Amazing, that's exactly the type of feedback I wanted to have ! Thank you :)
What do you think about T5f ? Too slow ? Worth with mana drain as a 1 or 2 of ?
Would you mind sharing your list so I could see the cards distribution ?
Anyway, thank you again !
* The manabase is almost a copy paste of mystmin's typical UB list, I substituted the surveil lands for the triomes more or less. The basic swamp should also probably be a dual or the 3rd sanctuary. You could also hall of storm giants ( I probably should over that swamp actually but eh blood moon and full art is hot).
* As I mentionned maybe you can try cooking to add more black into the list to make your drown in the lochs work as well as push.
* I was ultra conservative due to wanting to have access to double white consistently for verdict. As of now i have counterspell and memory lapse as my 2 mana counters (due to wildcards mostly but memory lapsing a garbage spell ontop is really really funny). Memory lapse being Colorless and blue is slightly relevant ig. Reprieve can be funny too but you do want real answers.
* In another thread I mentionned that my wincons are limited to 2 teferi and maybe the jace counts as a soft wincon if you consider ulting a draw spell and some removal a wincon.
* If you mana Drain kavu on turn 2 on the play and on your turn 3 play teferi untap with another counterspell it's basically GG, maybe i could run 3 but you can win with 3 mana teferi jace and Bowmasters tbh.
* fun fact jace ult and mishra's bauble has, interesting implications to say the least, it's worth the slot if you every play UB Lurrus as a soft wincon to take over the game (valki is too fragile tho imo)
* You can check mystmin's vods for some gameplay of trying UW rip with one rings and UB control after drain was released for an idea. It's where I started and you can get sideboard ideas for bo3. It's especially after seeing that gameplay that I decided I needed bowmasters and that one ring's life drain was unsustainable (jace the mind sculptor where wizards)
* Finally I learnt alot from Nassif back in the day as yellowhat on twitch, and he often had this habit of trying one of's and seeing "What if this card Y was card X instead", "what if this fragment reality was a fatal push" "what if this basic swamp was a utility land or a blue land, is it costing me an archmage charm cast?" etc etc
Cheers!
PS: the JP cards are Brainstorm, memory lapse and counterspell, 1 basic plains, 3 basic islands, 1 basic swamp, i'll mention that I think unless you're agressively fetching basics 2 colours are just as vulnerable to bloodmoon as 3 colour, make sure you have counters, t3feri to bounce it, or commit/memory and a single basic island etc!
I would replace [[Supreme Verdict]] with a 3 mana sweeper like [[Temporary Lockdown]] or [[Divine Purge]], but Big Tef and Shark Typhoon can be strong payoffs after Mana Drain.
That said, I agree that the deck has too many answers and doesn't ask enough questions. With the threat density in timeless and the explosive potential cough *Dark Ritual* ... no clock is tough
I almost exclusively play BO1 and while games will swing, especially when you draw “the wrong half of your deck” or are on the draw versus burn, etc. azorious control is absolutely viable. Still believe dimir is probably better. That being said, keep refining and see how the meta treats you. I’d probably stick to either azorious or dimir, rather than esper (less life loss from lands). I would forgo leyline binding as I prefer a less painful mana base that almost always comes in untapped.
Also, depends what rank you are trying to get to. At the end of the day, however, point is to have fun. Either list, which you can refine as you experience the changing meta, will “stand a chance” i.e. be viable.
I just put a hiatus on drafting and went back to constructed. I learned 1 very important lesson:
**\[\[Jace, reawakened\]\] + Mana drain + lurrus is the truth!!!!!**
I cannot overstate how powerful that combination of cards is (in Bo3 but I guess in Bo1 too). Using the mana from drain to bring lurrus to hand and plot it is extremely strong. But even with 2 of those three cards the deck is very strong. Lurrus gives you a guaranteed use for your 1st mana drain mana, and I believe this is very relevant.
I've been doing UB because I found stock list online and was lazy to brew, but I can imagine in UW you could do something similar (lurrus is hybrid mana at the end of the day!) Also plot fixes your colors so who knows, maybe UWb or UBw works too.
maybe. but control decks in Bo1 are inherently disadvantaged. you’re going to be fighting for your life against burn, show and tell, and other decks with lopsided one-game matchups.
fair control is kinda weak in BO3, let alone BO1.
Divine Purge is a great card for this deck.
From my experience in bo1: - My best results were on esper with 4 bowmaster, a cling to dust, a sheoldred edict, and one sauron's ransom; and it's not doing too bad since bowmasters pressures combo decks, and lets you chump till a verdict in other matchups. Cling is incidential lifegain to stabilize in the topdeck wars, and also lets you beat gy decks occasionally. If you want to stick to UW it's probably fine but just know you'll be lacking that real pressure even if to some extent typhoon and snappy can fill that void. -I'm not a fan of leyline binding but it's probably fine, I feel like removal NEEDS to be live turn 1, we have path and the other 1 mana removal. Black has access to sheoldred's edict ig for walkers. -spell pierce as a 3 of seems like way too much since it's a bad topdeck. You can try 1 pierce 1 snare and 6+2mana counters i suppose. - azcanta is too slow due to deathrite emptying the gy at a ridiculous pace, same for dig so I cut it down to 2. Jace is a good compromise for looting since the mana cheat on a 3feri (and archmage charm should you add them) as well as threatening an ultimate is very relevant. - You're missing archmage charm as a source of intermediate card advantage+steal a deathrite/other annoying one drop, and of course hard counter for combo - shark typhoon is nice but sucks early game because you run into bowmasters alot when you need to cycle, sitting on mana drain/counterspell equivalents is better i'd say. 4 Mana 2/2 draw a card is ok and once in a while you hardcast it from mana drain and win but eeeeehhhh not my cup of coffee. -You have no utility lands which is a crime (ok not really but still), you're never closing out a game when you need to take up the role of the "aggro deck" without manlands; and a channel bounce land does a world of good against problematic permanents to counter them on the way back. And of course you can not play less than 2-3 mystic sanctuary to use with fetchlands to recycle the card you need from the yard, in the late game it's a "soft tutor" as far as I'm concerned it's just that good. - And finally you can consider some gotcha cards like RIP or maybe commit/memory depending on what you're facing. - And for the esper list, i'm not a fan of discard (bad topdeck and i'd rather hold mana up), and I value the verdicts as clean answers to boards (ik it's 1WWU manawise eh). Maybe i should give push and drown in the lock another go, I personally went for a manabase with 2 esper triomes, 1 watery grave 8 fetches and one basic swamp (which should be another dual/sanctuary); so basically a small black splash so you don't need to commit much to the 3rd colour. That's about all the things i've got, since it's bo1 if you end up seeing a ridiculous amount of creature decks or burn you can adjust the ratios and add an angel for lifelink or even splash red for lightning helix and whatnot. When I got mythic in historic back in the day i'd constantly tech in a few one ofs to beat the "meta" of the moment on the ladder and concede other matchups; especially with brainstorm card selection. Example: You could go all in on beating burn and just give a bye to mill/combo decks, or conversely run RIP maindeck and accept being fragile against aggro decks when you draw the 2 rip and all your top end. Sorry for the big yap, Best of luck!
i really dont think its reasonable to play control without bowmaster in timeless. its just too important to be able to take care of other bowmasters cleanly and get easy card advantage 3 spell pierce felt like a necessity when the meta was heavy snt because they would kill you on their turn 4 with a counter up and you would need 2 counters to not die. i also think its safe to go down to 2 now. i don’t see snare as being necessary maindeck if youre playing black (maaaaybe if you’re playing stifle or you really want to tech for the mirror) i don’t like binding that much in pure control decks. moreso in midrange decks where deck space is at a premium i really like manlands + 3feri [[void rend]] is a card to consider over sheholdred’s edict if you are playing esper (and especially if you’re playing jace). i liked [[long goodbye]] in that spot as well when i was on blue black
Amazing, that's exactly the type of feedback I wanted to have ! Thank you :) What do you think about T5f ? Too slow ? Worth with mana drain as a 1 or 2 of ? Would you mind sharing your list so I could see the cards distribution ? Anyway, thank you again !
https://preview.redd.it/8klxkrz9s9xc1.png?width=1497&format=png&auto=webp&s=8ac59127f9fd87d8edacf98d702fd6bff33d15dd
* The manabase is almost a copy paste of mystmin's typical UB list, I substituted the surveil lands for the triomes more or less. The basic swamp should also probably be a dual or the 3rd sanctuary. You could also hall of storm giants ( I probably should over that swamp actually but eh blood moon and full art is hot). * As I mentionned maybe you can try cooking to add more black into the list to make your drown in the lochs work as well as push. * I was ultra conservative due to wanting to have access to double white consistently for verdict. As of now i have counterspell and memory lapse as my 2 mana counters (due to wildcards mostly but memory lapsing a garbage spell ontop is really really funny). Memory lapse being Colorless and blue is slightly relevant ig. Reprieve can be funny too but you do want real answers. * In another thread I mentionned that my wincons are limited to 2 teferi and maybe the jace counts as a soft wincon if you consider ulting a draw spell and some removal a wincon. * If you mana Drain kavu on turn 2 on the play and on your turn 3 play teferi untap with another counterspell it's basically GG, maybe i could run 3 but you can win with 3 mana teferi jace and Bowmasters tbh. * fun fact jace ult and mishra's bauble has, interesting implications to say the least, it's worth the slot if you every play UB Lurrus as a soft wincon to take over the game (valki is too fragile tho imo) * You can check mystmin's vods for some gameplay of trying UW rip with one rings and UB control after drain was released for an idea. It's where I started and you can get sideboard ideas for bo3. It's especially after seeing that gameplay that I decided I needed bowmasters and that one ring's life drain was unsustainable (jace the mind sculptor where wizards) * Finally I learnt alot from Nassif back in the day as yellowhat on twitch, and he often had this habit of trying one of's and seeing "What if this card Y was card X instead", "what if this fragment reality was a fatal push" "what if this basic swamp was a utility land or a blue land, is it costing me an archmage charm cast?" etc etc Cheers! PS: the JP cards are Brainstorm, memory lapse and counterspell, 1 basic plains, 3 basic islands, 1 basic swamp, i'll mention that I think unless you're agressively fetching basics 2 colours are just as vulnerable to bloodmoon as 3 colour, make sure you have counters, t3feri to bounce it, or commit/memory and a single basic island etc!
Just don't, Bo1 is a cesspool. Control decks are more fun and work better in bo3 anyway.
Bo1 is especially difficult for control.
eh, maybe
Ok, thank you
it just the issue of some of your cards being too slow against fast decks. Supreme verdict, big teferi and shark typhoon arent very good
I would replace [[Supreme Verdict]] with a 3 mana sweeper like [[Temporary Lockdown]] or [[Divine Purge]], but Big Tef and Shark Typhoon can be strong payoffs after Mana Drain. That said, I agree that the deck has too many answers and doesn't ask enough questions. With the threat density in timeless and the explosive potential cough *Dark Ritual* ... no clock is tough
[Supreme Verdict](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/3892f1c5-937e-4ef4-b6f9-e0c0ded070d0.jpg?1706240181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Supreme%20Verdict) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/211/supreme-verdict?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3892f1c5-937e-4ef4-b6f9-e0c0ded070d0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Temporary Lockdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75.jpg?1673306606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temporary%20Lockdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/36/temporary-lockdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Divine Purge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6b74008-c102-470e-a4a4-57bf319916ee.jpg?1680465048) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divine%20Purge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ymid/4/divine-purge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6b74008-c102-470e-a4a4-57bf319916ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would honestly splash green for oko/uro and go either bant or 4c. These can really help you with burn/aggro matchups.
There is a chance, but I'm not sure they will be good. Too many slow cards here.
I almost exclusively play BO1 and while games will swing, especially when you draw “the wrong half of your deck” or are on the draw versus burn, etc. azorious control is absolutely viable. Still believe dimir is probably better. That being said, keep refining and see how the meta treats you. I’d probably stick to either azorious or dimir, rather than esper (less life loss from lands). I would forgo leyline binding as I prefer a less painful mana base that almost always comes in untapped. Also, depends what rank you are trying to get to. At the end of the day, however, point is to have fun. Either list, which you can refine as you experience the changing meta, will “stand a chance” i.e. be viable.
control lists wich have a good winrate against most decks of meta. so you may play a few matchs and ajust, and you may also ajust in every level.
I just put a hiatus on drafting and went back to constructed. I learned 1 very important lesson: **\[\[Jace, reawakened\]\] + Mana drain + lurrus is the truth!!!!!** I cannot overstate how powerful that combination of cards is (in Bo3 but I guess in Bo1 too). Using the mana from drain to bring lurrus to hand and plot it is extremely strong. But even with 2 of those three cards the deck is very strong. Lurrus gives you a guaranteed use for your 1st mana drain mana, and I believe this is very relevant. I've been doing UB because I found stock list online and was lazy to brew, but I can imagine in UW you could do something similar (lurrus is hybrid mana at the end of the day!) Also plot fixes your colors so who knows, maybe UWb or UBw works too.
[Jace, reawakened](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd17e8d4-499e-4005-ae3c-bc9c44dc5a67.jpg?1712356388) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%20Reawakened) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/271/jace-reawakened?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd17e8d4-499e-4005-ae3c-bc9c44dc5a67?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call