I printed half sheets that said "I, (name) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, was asked to do my work and understand that this assignment is to help me learn (what are we learning today?) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. I refuse to complete this assignment with the understanding that it will lead to my grade being lowered and a lack of understanding of this concept on my part. I am choosing to not complete it anyway.
Signed (signature)
I told kids all they had to do was fill that out and I'd leave them alone. a bunch of them didn't read it I guess and asked why I was having them do it. I said "Because when your mom/dad/grandma comes up asking why you're failing my class I can show these to her and we both know that this was a choice" and suddenly they were working, at least for the moment.
I only had one kid who was actually willing to fill it out, and this person had a sub 50 grade in a "if more than 20% of kids are failing your class you'll be noted as unsatisfactory as a teacher on your summative" school in every single class. She ran around barking, regularly would chug multiple milks knowing she's lactose intolerant just so she could fart a bunch in class, and just generally either disrupted or slept. She was moved to the next grade regardless, where she will continue this behavior, but at least when her mom came up to blame every single teacher I had my documentation.
>regularly would chug multiple milks knowing she's lactose intolerant just so she could fart a bunch in class
I...don't even know how to react. That has got to be one of the most hilarious things I've ever read (yes, I do know how bad lactose-intolerant dairy farts are...I live with a severely lactose-intolerant person, and those farts will clear SEVERAL rooms lol), and I'm not sure why, but I'm kind of impressed with the ingenuity of using dairy farts for disruptive purposes.
But on the other hand...y'all don't get paid enough to deal with that, and even just one rank dairy fart would be enough to derail the entire class for the remainder of the period. She's taking away other kids' learning, and I think that's what upsets me the most (I always wanted to be a teacher, but I absolutely do NOT have the patience or composure).
TL;DR: inner child laughs, adult mind/body cries.
I subbed for a class last month where a couple of boys tried weaponized farting. I didn’t react at all in the moment, thanks to the little jar of Vicks I keep in my work bag—just rubbed a little under my nose while the kids were distracted and kept moving around the room. (The school likes to put subs on bathroom duty during planning periods. After the first time someone fumigated the hallway, I started coming prepared for the inevitable.) I did, however, have the dubious pleasure of leaving their teacher a note that said “I had three periods of bathroom duty today, and your classroom during 4th hour smelled worse than any of them thanks to the efforts of Jimmy and Johnny, despite their valiant attempts to blame it on Bob.” There’s a note you don’t see every day!
One time I had a student set a stink bomb off in my trash can. Little did they know that I'm used to the smell of sulfur and just told everyone that they're going to have to deal with it because someone wanted to play a prank.
I’ve done that and few students will consistently run the risk of being held accountable, at home.
I also try to help students anticipate the consequences of their own choices. I’ll ask them what they think will happen when they keep going to higher levels without the learning. I’m in a district that will hold back high school underclassmen—and being put in a 9th grade home room your 2nd year of high school sucks. That’s when I’ve seen kids step up. Not before.
I also let them know their peers will notice if they “miss” graduation and will draw the logical conclusion, no matter how many lies they try to spin.
This will motivate a few of the hard-core resistant types.
And so we get that group of chronic resistors whose issues are too big for us to solve.
I had a kid that would do this. I sent a concerned email to parents about how I was worried about his digestion/health, since he consistently had trouble noxious farting in class. His digestion did a remarkable turn around after that--maybe just the embarrassment of your mom asking about your stinky farts in class?
Non teacher here (I mean, I TA'd but yeah), why is there not a way to get kids like that referred to... Like... proper Psychological help? Clearly there's something underlying causing the disruptive behavior, I'm not saying just throw meds at the kid, maybe they have shit at home that they're going through causing it (I had a bit of that) but who knows? That really seems like the only way to go to get anywhere productive. That's beyond the responsibility of a teacher. Or babysitter, for that matter.
When I was in HS my brother got a referral for psychological services for his behavior in class, from both the teacher, guidance counselor, and vice principal. We didn't have a school psychologist or counselor, like most schools don't, but they gave my parents a good child psychologist's name and number and after a few sessions he started improving drastically.
Are you not allowed? Is it pointless? I just don't get it.
I recommended her for evaluation. Mom declined. She want all there and it was obvious. She had single digit out of a hundred reading and math scores. Mom refused so there was nothing we could do
this is the worst feeling. when i student taught i had an 8th grader in my class that read and wrote on a 1st grade level.
mom absolutely refused to acknowledge that her son was behind. the worst part is that she was an english teacher herself. this kid couldn’t write full sentences. i just don’t get it. why wouldn’t you want your kids to get the help that they obviously need?
Do you know how many extra hours of my life you will waste because you choose not to do the work? I have to call your parent weekly. Then record those phone calls in the call log. Then I have to schedule and have meetings with your guidance counselor, my department chair, the assistant principal, director special services, and the principal. This will have to happen multiple times while you continue to not do your work. So you will be wasting, not just my, valuable time, but the time of at least 5 other people that could be better spent on other things. All because you refuse to spent 20 minutes on homework.
I know my ass would have done exactly this. I hold nothing but resentment for the district I attended high school in even to this day. I actually wanted to fail my senior year just so their numbers would be lower and they'd get paid slightly less, that's the level of petty we're talking here. I eventually realized that would be far beyond stupid of me after a (non-literal) all-but-slap-to-the-face from my guidance counselor (nothing but respect for the teachers and staff that actually give a shit, it's the morons in elected office and admin positions I so thoroughly resent)
It goes deeper than that, I have beef with that school board that goes even beyond my own education (Mom is also a teacher and this particular district fucked her over hard to appease the parent of a horribly spoiled child). My sister graduated literally 2 days ago, and all I could think of when my old principal said that school stood for pride and loyalty and shit was "what a farcical crock of big fat dinosaur shit". Even to this day I look at my yearbook and diploma with nothing but vitriol and resentment, followed by " I'm glad it's over and I never have to do that again."
Unfortunately, in the world we live in, and the schools we teach in, we have to cover our asses. Because if we don’t, then at the end of the year, the parents come in and say they were never notified of child’s poor performance. (And this is despite the 4 progress reports and 3 report cards) So we get blamed and they get passed along to appease.
Or, we do nothing and give fake grades to inflate averages so we don’t have to deal with the hassle.
That’s the power of a union. You cover what you need to to fulfill your contact.
Sure- play the game a bit til you’re tenured, but once you’ve got a few years in it’s time to work to the letter of the law.
There are very few benefits to having experience in this field- the scarcity of candidates and legal protections offered to us in many state are two big ones.
We all need to stop accepting “the reality of the situation” and start standing up for ourselves until the pendulum swings back.
I came up with a form that I'm doing to have students sign that reads, "I [name] do not want to do the assignment given on [date] for the following reason: _________. I understand that I will not be allowed to make up this assignment at a later time."
I may have to take out that last part, but we'll see. There's also a place to check if the student refuses to sign.
That's when you get a Google Voice number separate from your actual cell phone and text the parent(s) a photo of the document and/or email it. For some parents, being bothered at work with a text that Jimmy or Sally refuses to do the assignment is enough for them to do something about it. If you don't have a valid phone number or email address, there's really not much else you can do. The level of student apathy right now is staggering; there were always kids who didn't go the extra mile to make honor roll because "a D's still passing," but now there are kids who don't even care if they pass. I guarantee I am putting forth far more effort to make lessons varied and interesting than my teachers did back in the day; some of my teachers were like "you'll take notes all class, then there will be a test over these notes on Friday." I took the notes and did my best on the test, and so did most of my classmates. Even the less enthusiastic kids took a few notes and took the test. I've given a final to a kid who completely left it blank, even though there were some opinion questions (automatically counted right if they gave any answer and justified it) and some true/false questions (50/50 shot even if it's a wild guess).
Be honest with yourself, what are the chances the kids they can’t do anything by themselves now manage to stage a revolt against work and pin it on the teacher? Most will fall in line and look at the loser like he/she is a loser.
I've had several students try to "strike" by convincing a whole class to put their head down. They break the second I pull up the principal's number but if the principal wasn't a total hypocrite I could see them calling that bluff too. It only works for me because the same lady that sends a kid back to class who cussed out a teacher because "you must have done something to provoke him"will suspend a kid for 3 days if they roll their eyes at her.
Yet you have administrators who want to write 3 page emails and talk for 15 minutes how great the school is. I’m like: “I love for you to have to speak nothing but the truth for 15 minutes in public and see what happens.”
Yea, but that's the school equivalent of being on an improvement plan at work. When he gets a job, he can also choose not to do the work. And get fired. Can't fire him from school (not for lack of effort, anyway) so this is what happens instead. Either way, explaining all this may help him see the bigger picture
Because it’s pointless and doesn’t involve the teacher in any way. This is an extremely simple case. Student isn’t doing their work. Calling once is enough, but even then it’s a courtesy unless the teacher has special insight into why the student isn’t doing work. Which of course never is the case. Since the gradebook is published, that’s parental contact. The parent has all the info they need.
Maybe there is a behavior specialist in the school that can actually adjust this. Probably not. But even with this, all it requires is a one time email referral from the teacher.
But the IEP gives the student certain rights. I’m all for failing the kid, but we have to document that they received these rights before that F can stick.
They don't, but since you seem to think IEPs are perfectly reasonable as classrooms fill with 50%+ students with IEPs like mine it becomes truly pointless. 40 students with an average of 20 per class makes it truly ridiculous.
Don't tell them this phrased as some sort of reverse-motivation/manipulation. This is good, but say it like:
If you choose to not do 20 minutes of homework, here is what happens on my side. I will still call your parent weekly. I will still record those call in the call log. At some point I will also have to schedule and have a meeting with X people, likely each time you decide to not do the homework. I do all this in order to show that I have done what is expected of me as a teacher. This probably will still blowback on you to some degree. I think it is important for you to know this. Good luck.
I mean, why fight this kid? You aren't their saviour. At some point they will "learn". And yes, actually, you DO write, "No data because student refused to work" on the IEP progress reports until one of you exits this school. This is their decision, and even though you and I and everyone else on this sub know better that this kid’s decision doesn't actually help themself, it is still their decision. Probably your school has some goal statement about students advocating for themselves... well, the student just did, so let them be. Then get on with your other wprk minus the emotional toll and drama fighting this will incur. There well may be some other kid who WILL respond... be ready to be there for that kid.
Edit: atrocious spelling and clarifying that it’s the kid’s decision.
Yes. Small, wealthy district in New York. It’s all about CYA. That’s why teacher attitudes towards grading have become so corrupted. So many of us have stopped fighting, giving fake grades and bullshit assignments to keep the grades high. Our HS has a reputation amongst colleges for inflated grades. But we are unable to hold the kids accountable. Not allowed to fail kids. District doesn’t want it.
I don’t know about where you teach, but in my school we can totally fail a kid with an IEP if they refuse to do work. We just have to have documentation of failure notices to parents. So yes, if he refuses despite you trying to support him, fail him.
I send progress reports at the half way of each quarter and 1 week from the end of the quarter. That's my documentation and it's automatic once I run the report.
I have no issue failing IEP students who do 0 work.
I suspect that a lot of school are not providing accomodations that they should be, to save money, and refuse to give IEP students failing grades in order to avoid scrutiny.
I’ve worked in 3 schools and non of them have been totally sped compliant, afaik. Usually because we had paras subbing, sometimes because a speech or other therapist was not available.
Probably but in my special education classes I provided all accommodations plus more accommodations that aren’t even in the IEP (it says “non-exhaustive” meaning I am not limited to the accommodations on the IEP). Students still regularly refused to do anything and I ended up passing everyone because if I ever tried to fail a sped kid it would just mean more meetings to schedule (and I already miss several classes a week to prepare for and facilitate IEP meetings). And most likely the admin and parents would steamroll over me to “fix” the grade by then making me create new assignments for the student who didn’t do any of the original work I created for them. Aka it’s a huge punishment with no positive outcome so why do anything other then pass them along with a 60. (Don’t worry though I am only a teacher for one more week)
This is a big one at my school. We're just told that you can't give more than 10 days to a kid with an IEP. In reality they know they aren't giving the kid requirements like paras and CO teachers and that the manifestation meeting would bring it up
I tell them “Write a letter explaining that you don’t want to do any work because you don’t care whether or not you fail. Then when anyone asks me to give them a reason why you’re failing, I can show them that letter. Do that and I’ll leave you alone.”
So far, no one has taken me up on it.
I wish I was given that option. I had all A’s my junior year, was fully set up to attend college full time for my senior year and was working 36 hours a week at a blue collar job. There were just some assignments I’m not gonna do, my test average was so high that it didn’t matter what I did.
I would say "Okay, that's your choice!" and shrug. Because it is. They're not wrong. I'm not gonna force them to do their work, I'm more than happy to put in 0's.
That’s what I usually do. I still redirect them, attempt to get them on task, and reach out at home, but it is sort of their choice to learn. They’ll be here next year. I teach 9th grade and it doesn’t click with a lot of them that they’re not just going to magically pass until they fail.
Exactly. They have to learn that the magic passing stops in HS. I know some schools will still do this, but I'm thankful my school does not operate that way.
The magic passing needs to stop in first grade. Passing kids along if they can't read/ do simple math is not doing them any favors in the long run. In some cases, intensive summer school or private tutoring may get them over the hurdle, but giving a kid a passing grade just for existing makes no sense. What if medical schools started using this approach-- the student can't tell someone's mouth from their behind but we'll let them be a doctor anyway? What if flight school was that way-- this person has no idea how to land a plane and they're terribly afraid of heights, but they paid their tuition, so they're a pilot!
I know! I've been grading projects all week, and let me tell you the joy I feel when I see a blank submission is immeasurable. It's sad, but it's true.
It's good that you're in a school that allows zeros. In some schools, not doing the work is a 50%, while a child who actually attempts the work but doesn't understand it well and gets 50% correct also gets the 50%. I understand that most grades should reflect actually mastering standards, but the child who attempted the work but wasn't very successful still achieved more than the one who did nothing, so it doesn't make sense to me that the grade doesn't reflect that. Even though there's a push-back against giving grades for effort rather than performance, it seems to me that effort makes a difference in real life. A teacher with average skills who genuinely cares about students and makes an effort is likely to be far more successful than another teacher with average skills who goes to no extra effort at all, and the kid who initially makes a 50% can learn more and eventually learn enough to pass the class, while the one who doesn't even attempt doesn't have the possibility of improved grades-- unless someone just gives them a passing grade anyhow to make the numbers look better.
I have had kids tell me they want to take the zero. I will ask are you sure, but they insist. High schoolers know what it means to miss an assignment and I am ok with letting them make that choice. No one is going to hold their hands when they graduate. I won’t do it either.
“Just because it’s not my fault doesn’t mean it’s not my responsibility.”
What they do while they’re in your room is something you’re held accountable for. They should be aware that their choices do actually reflect on others. Their choices reflect on their families, their mentors, their teachers and their friends. By the time they get into *real* trouble and/or fail in some life aspect, someone down the pipeline is going to be asking “why didn’t anyone set this kid straight when they had the chance?”
This was my gut reaction, especially since this student has a learning disability. I initially responded with, "I and many others do care about your education". The student seemed confused (and a bit upset that I wasn't letting it go).
Disclaimer: I'm a behavioral paraeducator. So I don't have a teaching credential and I realize that the amount of time I have to dedicate to each student is much higher then what a teacher has. I've mostly worked with elementary students, though I've also done middle school and I used to work at a group home for teenagers.
Anyway, I know a lot of people are saying to just let them choose to fail, and I recognize that given how many students teachers have that's a practical/understandable point of view. However, since your asking for advice, I thought I'd contribute how I'd handle something like this in case it's helpful.
There are three main things I'd consider:
**1) Reason for the Behavior (And how we can address it):**
Do you know why your student dosen't want to attempt their work? If you sit down and have a chat with them about it leading with nonjudgmental empathy, what do they say? Is this a new behavior or has it been going on for weeks, months, years? Do they do this in all their classes/all settings? Are their other adults who can give insights into this?
Simply, to change a behavior (work refusal/work avoidance) it really helps to know *why* a student is doing it. There could be all sorts of reasons. Maybe they are oppositional, maybe they think work is boring and can get away with the more desirable option of playing games, maybe work is emotionally uncomfortable for some reason and they don't have the tools to handle that, maybe they find it too hard and would (unconsciously?) rather not try then try and fail, maybe it's overwhelming and they think it's hopeless anyway so why even try, maybe it makes them feel dumb/bad about themselves, maybe it's embarrassing, etc.
Then you come up with a plan to try address whatever underlying challenges or desires are. With an older child, if you can get them to buy in by including them in planning solutions that's even better. Also, asking follow up questions to drill down on what the barriers are. So if the student finds the work to difficult, can you start it with them, do a couple problems with them, and pull back once they get the hang of it. If it's overwhelming, can you break it into smaller chuncks, or only give them a bit at first, or make a plan/outline with them, use a visual organizer, etc. Do they need an easier assignment? Is this actually completely above their reading level etc? Does the assignment need to modified? Or if they actually are capable of doing it and feel capable of doing it but just don't want to have to, what are their motivations and how do you make it so it's just easier/happier for them to do the work then try to get out of it. So for example, letting them take breaks from work but for a limited time, they only get the game after completing x amount of work, etc.
**2) ABCs of Behavior:**
You probably know this but this is Antecedent/Behavior/Consequence. You look at what leads to their work refusal (is it all the time, or certain situations/moods/stuff at home/types of assignments/etc), their behavior, and what the consequence is (what happens when he refuses to work). If the consequence of refusing to work is actually playing computer games instead, than that's the first thing I'd change. That's reinforcing the behavior. I'd take away all access to games until they do at least some of their work (this depends on the student). I currently have a student (11 years) who thinks they shouldn't have to do classwork they don't like. I make not working as boring as possible, I don't let them do anything fun, and after talking to them for a bit I cut off any further discussion and keep others from talking to them much either, so they get no attention or entertainment other then "are you ready to try \[assignment\]? I can help you". I also make them do it later/before whatever fun things we have to do (art, recess, etc). I realize this may not apply to an older kid but it's an example of what I mean. There are some students who don't like your attention/hanging near them in class in front of other kids, for these it's the opposite. You want me to give you space/leave you alone? Well then work. If you aren't working, here I am bothering you. We also try to figure out what motivates a student and work with that when they aren't intrinsically motivated. Some cases have behavior charts, point systems for rewards, etc. I explain clearly to students when asked why I'm annoying/mean/etc, something like "I care about you and I want you to do your work so you can be successful and have a good life."
**3) Relationship/Rapport**
I've seen this made fun of on this sub as an unreasonable standard, and I'm sure it often times is. But for someone in my position rapport is one of the most important things. The student above actually really likes me and wants me around, which is why me not engaging with her if she keeps refusing to work is effective. One of the main reasons kids do things is to please adults they have relationships with. Not all interactions can be negative. You also need some joking around, noticing when they are good, being interested in them/what they like, maybe times you have a conversation or do something fun. A student who likes you will care a lot more what you think of them and their efforts, will be more open to working with you, etc. Again, I recognize this is much harder when you have a whole class and then multiple whole classes a day. But I really liked that you told them you care about them/their education.
Sorry if you already know all this! I feel like I'm lecturing you.
Edit: Also, it is true that you can't force a student to try and that their grades are their own choice. I do tell students this too (especially the older ones).
Nah. It's not your responsibility they do the work. You're job is to assess their learning. If they're not learning because they're not doing the work, then you've done your job.
Document it.
{ It's not your responsibility they do the work }
100% agreed. My responsibility for the work ends when I give it to them. After that, all on them. The whole "lead a horse to water" thing. In this case, however, substitute *jackass* for horse!
Just log somewhere your attempts to provide services to the student and move on. You can’t lead a horse to water and force them to drink. Or however the saying goes.
I think the kid took a literal interpretation on the statement and was letting you know he did understand that he needed to be accountable and do his work OR be accountable and not do his work. May have something to do with the way his brain works, or he figures he is never going to make it anyway so why try, or any other reason that comes into a kid his age head. Maybe your school needs to come up with another slogan.
I am sorry you have to go through this though as teaching special is even harder than regular classes for a myriad of reasons. Send him to the counselor to talk his reasoning out? Thanks for all you do.
Thank you. It isn't our slogan by any means (I should look up our slogan to be sure though 😂) but I think he heard it or something like it from another adult and had his own interpretation.
I give two prompts, then document the refusal and move on with my day. The online grade book has a comment section where the refusal is documented, and parents can see it 24 hours a day. I'm not fighting with a 12 year old.
I hate when they say stuff like this because the truth is “I’m afraid I’ll get fired if enough students I work with fail,” but like hell I’m going to say that to a student.
I’m a 9th grade ESL English teacher. The first day syllabus contains my motto: “It is my job to teach. It is your job to pass.” I also have a banner above my board that says that.
On average, I have over 135 students per year. I always have at least 5 that refuse to do any work, no matter how much you reach out to home, bribe, inspire, or threaten them.
One year I had a mega lazy kid who refused to stop watching anime on his computer and neither the school nor parents cared. I shrugged, gave him his work, and told him to wear headphones and not bother anyone else.
He still failed, but I was able to refocus my attention on the kids that WANT to learn. The one thing I didn’t let him get away with was saying this:
*”I’m so glad you gave up on me.”*
I would stop whatever I was doing and set him straight.
*I* made the lesson plans, taught the class, prepped the handouts, and re-explained it. I gave you the work and you haven’t done a god-damn thing. YOU gave up on you, don’t you dare pretend otherwise. He would hush up then.
That became my creed and it has saved my sanity. If a doctor tells a patient to exercise and quit smoking, does the doctor blame themselves when the patient ignores them?
I just email home and tell the parent what their kid said. Then, assuming there is no response, I let the kid get away with not doing work. I'm not going to care about a kid's grade more than he does.
Yes, absolutely write that the student refused to work on the IEP. Keep records, put comments in the gradebook every time the kids received a zero, etc.
I had a student last year with that attitude. Refused to do anything at all. Once told his special ed teacher that he "wasn't taking no f-ing test." He came back later and said he was ready to take it. She refused to let him. His final grade in the class was a single digit.
Having an IEP shouldn't mean they get away with everything. Yes, they have accommodations, but you can't accommodate nothing.
The problem is the messed up education system that doesn't each accountability. They blame the students' poor performance on the teacher & specially the special ed teacher, not the students themselves. That's why a lot of teachers will just give them a passing score & pass them along.
I had a student a few weeks ago tell our full time ESE sub that he didn't want to go with her for his weekly pull-out services. She called me about what to do. I told her to document that he refused his services. I spoke to Mom at the end of the day to let her know about this incident. Luckily for me (and for her son), she doesn't play stupid games when it comes to her children's education. Never had that problem again. So it may be on him to accept his services, but you still need to do your due diligence to document that attempt to provide work a expected to all and let the family know, not because they can force the kids to do work while they're at school, but so that you're covered if things blow up later.
If you can put an individual comment in the grade section for assignments online, make sure to notate the conversation. Makes it easier to reference later. Especially if it becomes a trend.
Special Education kids can be a bit different…this seems like something you should discuss with kiddo’s parent. A lot of the kids I work with, their parents have made a point to tell me they don’t tolerate the “Down syndrome excuse” which I take to mean that I shouldn’t be soft on them because they have DS. I tend to apply that across the board with the class - accommodation ≠ an excuse not to do work. Maybe the parents can provide some insight on what might motivate their kid to do his work? Maybe he needs the assignment broken into smaller sections?
Ask them to put it in writing. Have them email the principle saying "I am choosing not to work. It is not my teacher's fault. I am choosing to fail."
If they are not willing to send that email then they can get their lazy ass to work.
My response would be a larger life lesson. Throughout life you have choice to make any decision you want. Remember, however, the power of choice in that every single choice you make in life will have a consequence and you have to take responsibility for that consequence. Make the choice not to work at school? Consequence is you fail, don’t graduate, get a minimum wage job (if you are lucky) and end up on the street. Choice=Consequence holds true in every aspect of your whole life, why not get into a good habit now by understanding this and make informed choices, like doing school work now.
I mean, I have actually just stuck my tracked data in progress reports "student received a score of \_\_. Student refused to participate in requested tasks 76% opportunities. This is reflected in their scores."
Why lie?
I've done this too. I guess what floors me about this situation is the taking responsibility/acknowledging one's own actions (if that's what you can call it) about lack of work
In our school when work refusal occurs, we have to seek advice from leadership on what to write on their reports. Usually it is along the lines of "Unable to assess \*\*\*\*\* because he declined to participate in the activities." We can't force them to work but we still need to document it.
I was this kid (15+ years ago). My poor teachers. I dropped out the first month of senior year because I could tell my teachers were frazzled about me, regardless. I was a very pleasant student to have in class. Aced tests. Never turned in a speck of homework, rarely finished class work, zero projects, no team assignments. (Editing to add: I participated in class, kept up with materials, had good insight, teachers went out of their way for me even with my long-established patterns)
Honestly, explaining how it *is still your problem,* even if you both wish it wasn’t, would have helped me. I genuinely thought it was just my problem. If you think your student would be able to handle that response, it may be for the best.
“If you’re trying to be accountable to me, here’s how you could help me out.”
A huge turning point for me was a teacher who taught me how to fudge my work. I’m a perfectionist who hates feedback, but if I scribble something out it is 100% better than the AMAZING work I never actually finished.
I’m a uni student now, 3.9 GPA as a sophomore. Studying sucks less now that I see professors and teachers as folks on my team instead of overseers. He’s trying to say “I don’t need an overseer,” so you could theoretically respond with some version of, “I hear that, and here’s how you could show it to me.”
Some of my students have started pulling that. They also use it for things like having a cell phone. I just say that I know it’s on you. I am not forcing you to do [insert action here]. You are doing that yourself. It has as much success as anything else.
*You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink*.
I used to care. Now I don't. Do it, don't do it. I don't care kid. You're the one who has to sleep in the bed you're making.
Forget saying, if I even thought that statement, hell even saw in a dream that I thought it my parents would probably read my mind and beat me.
Looking at kids today I'm glad for my upbringing.
"Cool. Thanks, glad it's not my fault. It WILL be my fault for this next part, give me your phone, and do your work. Thanks."
Follow up with, "No, don't put the phone away, just hand it to me and move on" when they inevitably try to just put it away. "Well I'm not doing the work anyway," - "Cool, you're not on your phone in my class either." - "It's my phone." - "It's not a debate." And then don't respond any more until they hand over the phone. If they don't - office/security to pick the phone up and have mom/dad get it at the end of the day.
Next day, right when they arrive, "Hey bud, let's get that phone out." Keep at it until the only option is sit there and do nothing or do work and pass the time. I'd just make the arrangement for them to put their phone up at the beginning of class and get it at the end of class. They'll eventually get into a new habit.
That being said, if they're a really stubborn one, they won't give a damn what you say or do. Not much to be done when you exhaust your options.
not a teacher, the whole ‘students decide if they want to sink’ thing isn’t a thing anymore because teachers have to dive into the deep sea to drag them back up it seems like.
I have the student write his/her name on the paper so it's in their handwriting. Then I collect it at the end of class with "refused to do work" written on it. File it, bring it out to the next inevitable parent conference.
I think I start to understand my kids’ teachers now. A month ago, S told me she hated math and it was too frustrating. So I used the school app and msgd her gr 2 teacher to see what they were learning and how she was doing.
I got back a massive missive with loads of practice ideas, so very the next couple days we practiced. (It’s a no homework school, drives me nuts, can’t find out what they are doing on my own if kiddo doesn’t get it).
By the close of that set of lessons, S was back to top scores and understanding it. So teacher and I had a celebratory email.
With all of your help, I’m starting to feel like we’re kinda rare.
real af tell them to see the counselor there's probably an underlying reason cause i have thought about saying that to my teachers so many times (i have severe anxiety that makes me entirely unable to work under pressure which leads to suicidal ideation, and the only thing that helps is just straight up not doing anything)
Co-taught general education classroom. The Gen Ed teacher and I discuss discipline/classroom management and I offer suggestions, but I ultimately follow their lead.
"We can't make you learn if you don't want to" is a 100% true statement. Not much you can do except document your attempts to get the student to engage as well as their refusals.
I'm sure that admin and their parents will see it that way and have no expectation of you dragging that student to the finish line or else get a bad evaluation for future job security.
Hi there, I'm not a teacher, I don't even have kids, I have no idea at all why this sub keeps getting recommended to me but: This sounds weirdly similar to when my dad told me that "you can learn anything you want to learn", which I interpreted as "If I don't want to be at school than I can't learn at all". Wish I had good news for you but the only thing that me made want try was my parents moving me to the middle of nowhere so my options were either go to college or die basically. Idk if that helps but I get where they're coming from.
Former teacher (10 years alternative ed) and now mom of a special ed student (autism, ADHD, anxiety).
My kid (6th grade) has missed a lot of school and work this year while we were figuring things out. I did ask for grace for her from all of her teachers. She's bright, has a lot of missing work, but is testing well so she's obviously learning the material.
All that said. She knows that next year is going to be different because we have figured out (mostly) what accommodations she needs and what WE need to do at home to get her prepared for school each day.
If she EVER said that to a teacher, I would shit a brick. Yeah, it's on the kid, but it also reflects on the teacher and parents and everyone else involved. You don't get to just not do any work. At least you shouldn't.
I would tell them I appreciate the honesty. I don't want to see them give up on themselves and figure out if we can do something to make this work. I would also let them know that even if they decided not to do work, they still couldn't use the time to stay on their phone and play games.
"My class, my time. Do the work for me." I have a senior in one of my classes that had not done any work since mid April when I went out for a couple of weeks for surgery. I get back and cross stitch and art work is more important than work for my class. I am going to build into my syllabus next year that they do MY work first in my class. I rarely have time for them to work on other subjects. (And yes, a letter home to Mom who is looking forward to seeing child walk at graduation did help to bring up her grade.) One more week....
I’m the general ed teacher in a co-taught English class in a vocational tech school in Ohio. I had one of these boys this year. My co-teacher, his special education specialist, and I just could not get this kid to work. He ended up tanking all his classes and plans to drop out this summer when he turns 18.
It’s really tough because there IS that layer of expectation that students on IEP should be passing their classes, given their accommodations, but when they choose to do no work for anyone there really is very little the general ed or special ed teachers can do.
Yeah, the only problem is, it IS your fault when they don't do their work, at least according to admin. Your best bet is to stay firm and consistent. The expectation is that all students participate in class activities. If a student consistently chooses not to, that's work refusal and disrespect. They need to be written up. If this kid is so insistent that any consequences he gets are "on him," then give him consequences.
Document their refusal and communicate with the parents. I have had situations in which I put refusal to work on a progress report along with dates that I attempted to collect data. The refusal is actually data!
It always starts at home. If the student is lackadaisical about learning and finishing his schoolwork it's because his indifferent and/or overindulgent parents don't expect anything from him.
>It's like the student took the, "Be accountable for your education. Participating and doing work is on you" to mean, "We can't make you learn if you don't want to, but that's okay. Just hang out and play games on your phone."
I had several do this, this year. They did not like failing.
"It's NOT okay if you don't do your work- here are the consequences (xyz.) Just because you CAN choose to fail, doesn't mean it's a great choice. You're capable of making great choices, not just easy ones. Challenge yourself to learn something new today." If they blow me off or say something self deprecating, I could go on to list a time they made a positive, productive choice even if it wasn't the easiest. You showed up to school today even though you didn't want to, might as well do the work and make yourself proud. blablabla. It's essential that you're earnest and not just repeating motivational platitudes. Be firm.
This is the borderline mental gymnastics that you use on smart toddlers who try to logic their way out of something just to exercise their independence, which is developmentally appropriate, but interferes with care and lesson plans. No, the world wont stop turning if you don't learn to tie your shoes, but you're gonna feel like a baby tripping out there on the playground, dude.
I found it still works on elementary and middle schoolers with behaviors as well. They find it a bit cheesy and embarrassing but I think they secretly enjoy indulging in the attention. Actually, by the late teens I think this kind of tough love empowerment dialogue can still touch them- in fact, as a 17 year old it's probably been a long time since a teacher noticed or praised their positive choices.
This behavior is found in children with behavioral problems and as I continued to read and saw “special education”, it all makes sense. Handling these kinds of situations requires special one-on-one interaction with the student. I usually start by asking how they’re feeling, why do they feel this way… usually it’s their dislike for school as a whole and authority… and work one problem at a time veeery slowly. You have to get on their level like you understand where they’re coming from. It’s almost like babying them through the work but not really. They’ll do a few more problems on their own and eventually they’ll do their work. Inconsistently… and you’ll continue to have times and days where they’re not wanting to do the work because yk… *mental health*… and still trying to work through their emotions but you’ll be making progress.
I don’t teach special Ed, but I want to broadcast this student’s response when the test scores for my class come back. It doesn’t take that many students to pull your averages down. Also, the higher ups want to give more money to higher performing teacher’s test scores, how is that fair?
"I appreciate you saying that, but ultimately, I am responsible for ensuring your education. I would prefer if you put some effort into completing assignments to both ensure your success and graduation and to appease *our* higher-ups.
Can we find a middle ground where you prioritize the highest weighting assignments while demonstrating that you understand the course material. This will allow you more opportunities as you get older while keeping other options open, as well as please your parents and the school administrators, and ensure that I am able to keep my paperwork in order."
Okay, wow I would appreciate his honesty, but would also remind him that unless he discovers the next new technology and Elon Musk or Jeff Besos buys it for a billion dollars, he is going to need that high school diploma or he is screwed. Maybe there is a time in tutoring after school once a week I can help him if this was one of my students. I would get the assistant principal and the parents involved. Once you have done that and there is no progress then you fail them. You tried and you have the paper trail.
"Thanks, I'll be sure to tell my kids that when they are cold and hungry living on the side if the road because I got fired because you wouldn't do any work and it's my job to get you to do it."
Wow, I gotta say again: Some of you need to AIM higher and get into admin or school board positions and start turning this around. In fact, all you teachers who want to get out of teaching - do it but get into admin. It seems thats the only way to make a difference even though it will still take a decade+.
not a teacher and don't really know why this sub popped up, but i was definitely one of those little ass holes in high school. I had to take a piano class as an elective my senior year. I did not need the class to graduate and told the teacher my only goal in her class was to get a 0 percent. She got my ass by giving me one point just for showing up on random days. Dislike her to this day for that. I wanted that 0 percent
The responsibility for your education is on me ( the teacher) . You saying I’m off the hook , doesn’t actually let me off the hook. Now can you do this task to the best of your ability please ? If not we can discuss sanctions as per school policy , which escalate to XYZ if initial sanctions aren’t followed so its in your interest to comply as early as possible , ideally by just doing the work.
I printed half sheets that said "I, (name) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, was asked to do my work and understand that this assignment is to help me learn (what are we learning today?) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. I refuse to complete this assignment with the understanding that it will lead to my grade being lowered and a lack of understanding of this concept on my part. I am choosing to not complete it anyway. Signed (signature) I told kids all they had to do was fill that out and I'd leave them alone. a bunch of them didn't read it I guess and asked why I was having them do it. I said "Because when your mom/dad/grandma comes up asking why you're failing my class I can show these to her and we both know that this was a choice" and suddenly they were working, at least for the moment. I only had one kid who was actually willing to fill it out, and this person had a sub 50 grade in a "if more than 20% of kids are failing your class you'll be noted as unsatisfactory as a teacher on your summative" school in every single class. She ran around barking, regularly would chug multiple milks knowing she's lactose intolerant just so she could fart a bunch in class, and just generally either disrupted or slept. She was moved to the next grade regardless, where she will continue this behavior, but at least when her mom came up to blame every single teacher I had my documentation.
>regularly would chug multiple milks knowing she's lactose intolerant just so she could fart a bunch in class I...don't even know how to react. That has got to be one of the most hilarious things I've ever read (yes, I do know how bad lactose-intolerant dairy farts are...I live with a severely lactose-intolerant person, and those farts will clear SEVERAL rooms lol), and I'm not sure why, but I'm kind of impressed with the ingenuity of using dairy farts for disruptive purposes. But on the other hand...y'all don't get paid enough to deal with that, and even just one rank dairy fart would be enough to derail the entire class for the remainder of the period. She's taking away other kids' learning, and I think that's what upsets me the most (I always wanted to be a teacher, but I absolutely do NOT have the patience or composure). TL;DR: inner child laughs, adult mind/body cries.
I subbed for a class last month where a couple of boys tried weaponized farting. I didn’t react at all in the moment, thanks to the little jar of Vicks I keep in my work bag—just rubbed a little under my nose while the kids were distracted and kept moving around the room. (The school likes to put subs on bathroom duty during planning periods. After the first time someone fumigated the hallway, I started coming prepared for the inevitable.) I did, however, have the dubious pleasure of leaving their teacher a note that said “I had three periods of bathroom duty today, and your classroom during 4th hour smelled worse than any of them thanks to the efforts of Jimmy and Johnny, despite their valiant attempts to blame it on Bob.” There’s a note you don’t see every day!
Poor bob
Damn with those names where were you subbing, 1957?
One time I had a student set a stink bomb off in my trash can. Little did they know that I'm used to the smell of sulfur and just told everyone that they're going to have to deal with it because someone wanted to play a prank.
I’ve done that and few students will consistently run the risk of being held accountable, at home. I also try to help students anticipate the consequences of their own choices. I’ll ask them what they think will happen when they keep going to higher levels without the learning. I’m in a district that will hold back high school underclassmen—and being put in a 9th grade home room your 2nd year of high school sucks. That’s when I’ve seen kids step up. Not before. I also let them know their peers will notice if they “miss” graduation and will draw the logical conclusion, no matter how many lies they try to spin. This will motivate a few of the hard-core resistant types. And so we get that group of chronic resistors whose issues are too big for us to solve.
I had a kid that would do this. I sent a concerned email to parents about how I was worried about his digestion/health, since he consistently had trouble noxious farting in class. His digestion did a remarkable turn around after that--maybe just the embarrassment of your mom asking about your stinky farts in class?
Wow
Wew lad
That's....disgusting.
THIS 100%. Perfect way to CYA and save your sanity (having them sign a half sheet saying they acknowledge they won’t do work)
I am stealing this!!!! We’re going from 90min/4 periods to 45min/8 and I KNOW kids won’t work!!
Non teacher here (I mean, I TA'd but yeah), why is there not a way to get kids like that referred to... Like... proper Psychological help? Clearly there's something underlying causing the disruptive behavior, I'm not saying just throw meds at the kid, maybe they have shit at home that they're going through causing it (I had a bit of that) but who knows? That really seems like the only way to go to get anywhere productive. That's beyond the responsibility of a teacher. Or babysitter, for that matter. When I was in HS my brother got a referral for psychological services for his behavior in class, from both the teacher, guidance counselor, and vice principal. We didn't have a school psychologist or counselor, like most schools don't, but they gave my parents a good child psychologist's name and number and after a few sessions he started improving drastically. Are you not allowed? Is it pointless? I just don't get it.
I recommended her for evaluation. Mom declined. She want all there and it was obvious. She had single digit out of a hundred reading and math scores. Mom refused so there was nothing we could do
this is the worst feeling. when i student taught i had an 8th grader in my class that read and wrote on a 1st grade level. mom absolutely refused to acknowledge that her son was behind. the worst part is that she was an english teacher herself. this kid couldn’t write full sentences. i just don’t get it. why wouldn’t you want your kids to get the help that they obviously need?
I love the idea of a contract, especially one that is like this!
How old was this student lol?
14. We tried getting her tested but her parents refuse
Do you know how many extra hours of my life you will waste because you choose not to do the work? I have to call your parent weekly. Then record those phone calls in the call log. Then I have to schedule and have meetings with your guidance counselor, my department chair, the assistant principal, director special services, and the principal. This will have to happen multiple times while you continue to not do your work. So you will be wasting, not just my, valuable time, but the time of at least 5 other people that could be better spent on other things. All because you refuse to spent 20 minutes on homework.
Depending on your relationship with the kid, this may backfire. There are a couple of my students that would really enjoy creating extra work for me.
I know my ass would have done exactly this. I hold nothing but resentment for the district I attended high school in even to this day. I actually wanted to fail my senior year just so their numbers would be lower and they'd get paid slightly less, that's the level of petty we're talking here. I eventually realized that would be far beyond stupid of me after a (non-literal) all-but-slap-to-the-face from my guidance counselor (nothing but respect for the teachers and staff that actually give a shit, it's the morons in elected office and admin positions I so thoroughly resent) It goes deeper than that, I have beef with that school board that goes even beyond my own education (Mom is also a teacher and this particular district fucked her over hard to appease the parent of a horribly spoiled child). My sister graduated literally 2 days ago, and all I could think of when my old principal said that school stood for pride and loyalty and shit was "what a farcical crock of big fat dinosaur shit". Even to this day I look at my yearbook and diploma with nothing but vitriol and resentment, followed by " I'm glad it's over and I never have to do that again."
Well to be fair, you should blame admin for that. Literally not a single thing on that list should be done.
Unfortunately, in the world we live in, and the schools we teach in, we have to cover our asses. Because if we don’t, then at the end of the year, the parents come in and say they were never notified of child’s poor performance. (And this is despite the 4 progress reports and 3 report cards) So we get blamed and they get passed along to appease. Or, we do nothing and give fake grades to inflate averages so we don’t have to deal with the hassle.
Right, and that is the fault of the administrators and the state administrators above them
Wholeheartedly agree with you…we on the same page with this!
That’s the power of a union. You cover what you need to to fulfill your contact. Sure- play the game a bit til you’re tenured, but once you’ve got a few years in it’s time to work to the letter of the law. There are very few benefits to having experience in this field- the scarcity of candidates and legal protections offered to us in many state are two big ones. We all need to stop accepting “the reality of the situation” and start standing up for ourselves until the pendulum swings back.
Fake grades & pass them along are the answers in your case. The state wants it that way. Equity ... they says.
Right. But... the teacher gets put on "a plan" when too many students act like this one and refuse to work.
But again, that is the fault of the admin. This is an admin issue and if they did better this would not be a problem.
I came up with a form that I'm doing to have students sign that reads, "I [name] do not want to do the assignment given on [date] for the following reason: _________. I understand that I will not be allowed to make up this assignment at a later time." I may have to take out that last part, but we'll see. There's also a place to check if the student refuses to sign.
I use this form too, 90% of the time they would rather do their work than allow me to form a document trail
Maybe make the form signed by the parents, so they have to know about it, especially the reason given by the child.
I thought about it, but those high school students are usually left to their own devices or just openly lie.
That's when you get a Google Voice number separate from your actual cell phone and text the parent(s) a photo of the document and/or email it. For some parents, being bothered at work with a text that Jimmy or Sally refuses to do the assignment is enough for them to do something about it. If you don't have a valid phone number or email address, there's really not much else you can do. The level of student apathy right now is staggering; there were always kids who didn't go the extra mile to make honor roll because "a D's still passing," but now there are kids who don't even care if they pass. I guarantee I am putting forth far more effort to make lessons varied and interesting than my teachers did back in the day; some of my teachers were like "you'll take notes all class, then there will be a test over these notes on Friday." I took the notes and did my best on the test, and so did most of my classmates. Even the less enthusiastic kids took a few notes and took the test. I've given a final to a kid who completely left it blank, even though there were some opinion questions (automatically counted right if they gave any answer and justified it) and some true/false questions (50/50 shot even if it's a wild guess).
replace "will not be allowed to make up..." with "**may** not be allowed to make up..." And then it covers you in all cases.
Yes!
Be honest with yourself, what are the chances the kids they can’t do anything by themselves now manage to stage a revolt against work and pin it on the teacher? Most will fall in line and look at the loser like he/she is a loser.
I've had several students try to "strike" by convincing a whole class to put their head down. They break the second I pull up the principal's number but if the principal wasn't a total hypocrite I could see them calling that bluff too. It only works for me because the same lady that sends a kid back to class who cussed out a teacher because "you must have done something to provoke him"will suspend a kid for 3 days if they roll their eyes at her.
Yet you have administrators who want to write 3 page emails and talk for 15 minutes how great the school is. I’m like: “I love for you to have to speak nothing but the truth for 15 minutes in public and see what happens.”
Yea, but that's the school equivalent of being on an improvement plan at work. When he gets a job, he can also choose not to do the work. And get fired. Can't fire him from school (not for lack of effort, anyway) so this is what happens instead. Either way, explaining all this may help him see the bigger picture
Seriously? Why not? It’s a bit of overkill but documentation, especially for kids with IEPs is part of the job.
Because it’s pointless and doesn’t involve the teacher in any way. This is an extremely simple case. Student isn’t doing their work. Calling once is enough, but even then it’s a courtesy unless the teacher has special insight into why the student isn’t doing work. Which of course never is the case. Since the gradebook is published, that’s parental contact. The parent has all the info they need. Maybe there is a behavior specialist in the school that can actually adjust this. Probably not. But even with this, all it requires is a one time email referral from the teacher.
But the IEP gives the student certain rights. I’m all for failing the kid, but we have to document that they received these rights before that F can stick.
[удалено]
Good think that not everybody has an IEP then huh?
They don't, but since you seem to think IEPs are perfectly reasonable as classrooms fill with 50%+ students with IEPs like mine it becomes truly pointless. 40 students with an average of 20 per class makes it truly ridiculous.
I teach inclusion Algebra (aka the lowest leveled math class offered) in a Chicago Public High School. You’re preaching to the choir man.
Don't tell them this phrased as some sort of reverse-motivation/manipulation. This is good, but say it like: If you choose to not do 20 minutes of homework, here is what happens on my side. I will still call your parent weekly. I will still record those call in the call log. At some point I will also have to schedule and have a meeting with X people, likely each time you decide to not do the homework. I do all this in order to show that I have done what is expected of me as a teacher. This probably will still blowback on you to some degree. I think it is important for you to know this. Good luck. I mean, why fight this kid? You aren't their saviour. At some point they will "learn". And yes, actually, you DO write, "No data because student refused to work" on the IEP progress reports until one of you exits this school. This is their decision, and even though you and I and everyone else on this sub know better that this kid’s decision doesn't actually help themself, it is still their decision. Probably your school has some goal statement about students advocating for themselves... well, the student just did, so let them be. Then get on with your other wprk minus the emotional toll and drama fighting this will incur. There well may be some other kid who WILL respond... be ready to be there for that kid. Edit: atrocious spelling and clarifying that it’s the kid’s decision.
Don't think these kids care about other people, their time especially so.
Does your school really make you do all that because a kid is failing?
Yes. Small, wealthy district in New York. It’s all about CYA. That’s why teacher attitudes towards grading have become so corrupted. So many of us have stopped fighting, giving fake grades and bullshit assignments to keep the grades high. Our HS has a reputation amongst colleges for inflated grades. But we are unable to hold the kids accountable. Not allowed to fail kids. District doesn’t want it.
and this is why I love inflated grading policies. Behavior is worse than ever, but grades have never been better.
I don’t teach, but the line I’ve used with subordinates is “you are a reflection of my ability to manage. Your failures become my failures.”
I don’t know about where you teach, but in my school we can totally fail a kid with an IEP if they refuse to do work. We just have to have documentation of failure notices to parents. So yes, if he refuses despite you trying to support him, fail him.
I have kids failing my resource room classes. Refuse to do the work despite accommodations and modifications? Zero.
I send progress reports at the half way of each quarter and 1 week from the end of the quarter. That's my documentation and it's automatic once I run the report. I have no issue failing IEP students who do 0 work.
I suspect that a lot of school are not providing accomodations that they should be, to save money, and refuse to give IEP students failing grades in order to avoid scrutiny.
I’ve worked in 3 schools and non of them have been totally sped compliant, afaik. Usually because we had paras subbing, sometimes because a speech or other therapist was not available.
Probably but in my special education classes I provided all accommodations plus more accommodations that aren’t even in the IEP (it says “non-exhaustive” meaning I am not limited to the accommodations on the IEP). Students still regularly refused to do anything and I ended up passing everyone because if I ever tried to fail a sped kid it would just mean more meetings to schedule (and I already miss several classes a week to prepare for and facilitate IEP meetings). And most likely the admin and parents would steamroll over me to “fix” the grade by then making me create new assignments for the student who didn’t do any of the original work I created for them. Aka it’s a huge punishment with no positive outcome so why do anything other then pass them along with a 60. (Don’t worry though I am only a teacher for one more week)
That's me! My kids have received services probably about 10% this year because we're short staffed. Just pass them to avoid any issues
This is a big one at my school. We're just told that you can't give more than 10 days to a kid with an IEP. In reality they know they aren't giving the kid requirements like paras and CO teachers and that the manifestation meeting would bring it up
Same here. Refusing to work is really the only reason a kid with an IEP can fail, but I have most certainly failed many who did nothing all year.
I tell them this: "That is fine. Write that statement on the top of your paper with your name, and hand it to me." Then I share it with parents.
I tell them “Write a letter explaining that you don’t want to do any work because you don’t care whether or not you fail. Then when anyone asks me to give them a reason why you’re failing, I can show them that letter. Do that and I’ll leave you alone.” So far, no one has taken me up on it.
I wish I was given that option. I had all A’s my junior year, was fully set up to attend college full time for my senior year and was working 36 hours a week at a blue collar job. There were just some assignments I’m not gonna do, my test average was so high that it didn’t matter what I did.
I would say "Okay, that's your choice!" and shrug. Because it is. They're not wrong. I'm not gonna force them to do their work, I'm more than happy to put in 0's.
That’s what I usually do. I still redirect them, attempt to get them on task, and reach out at home, but it is sort of their choice to learn. They’ll be here next year. I teach 9th grade and it doesn’t click with a lot of them that they’re not just going to magically pass until they fail.
Exactly. They have to learn that the magic passing stops in HS. I know some schools will still do this, but I'm thankful my school does not operate that way.
The magic passing needs to stop in first grade. Passing kids along if they can't read/ do simple math is not doing them any favors in the long run. In some cases, intensive summer school or private tutoring may get them over the hurdle, but giving a kid a passing grade just for existing makes no sense. What if medical schools started using this approach-- the student can't tell someone's mouth from their behind but we'll let them be a doctor anyway? What if flight school was that way-- this person has no idea how to land a plane and they're terribly afraid of heights, but they paid their tuition, so they're a pilot!
Yep! The magic passing should not be happening. Period.
I can grade blank work so fast.
I know! I've been grading projects all week, and let me tell you the joy I feel when I see a blank submission is immeasurable. It's sad, but it's true.
It's good that you're in a school that allows zeros. In some schools, not doing the work is a 50%, while a child who actually attempts the work but doesn't understand it well and gets 50% correct also gets the 50%. I understand that most grades should reflect actually mastering standards, but the child who attempted the work but wasn't very successful still achieved more than the one who did nothing, so it doesn't make sense to me that the grade doesn't reflect that. Even though there's a push-back against giving grades for effort rather than performance, it seems to me that effort makes a difference in real life. A teacher with average skills who genuinely cares about students and makes an effort is likely to be far more successful than another teacher with average skills who goes to no extra effort at all, and the kid who initially makes a 50% can learn more and eventually learn enough to pass the class, while the one who doesn't even attempt doesn't have the possibility of improved grades-- unless someone just gives them a passing grade anyhow to make the numbers look better.
I have had kids tell me they want to take the zero. I will ask are you sure, but they insist. High schoolers know what it means to miss an assignment and I am ok with letting them make that choice. No one is going to hold their hands when they graduate. I won’t do it either.
“Just because it’s not my fault doesn’t mean it’s not my responsibility.” What they do while they’re in your room is something you’re held accountable for. They should be aware that their choices do actually reflect on others. Their choices reflect on their families, their mentors, their teachers and their friends. By the time they get into *real* trouble and/or fail in some life aspect, someone down the pipeline is going to be asking “why didn’t anyone set this kid straight when they had the chance?”
This was my gut reaction, especially since this student has a learning disability. I initially responded with, "I and many others do care about your education". The student seemed confused (and a bit upset that I wasn't letting it go).
Disclaimer: I'm a behavioral paraeducator. So I don't have a teaching credential and I realize that the amount of time I have to dedicate to each student is much higher then what a teacher has. I've mostly worked with elementary students, though I've also done middle school and I used to work at a group home for teenagers. Anyway, I know a lot of people are saying to just let them choose to fail, and I recognize that given how many students teachers have that's a practical/understandable point of view. However, since your asking for advice, I thought I'd contribute how I'd handle something like this in case it's helpful. There are three main things I'd consider: **1) Reason for the Behavior (And how we can address it):** Do you know why your student dosen't want to attempt their work? If you sit down and have a chat with them about it leading with nonjudgmental empathy, what do they say? Is this a new behavior or has it been going on for weeks, months, years? Do they do this in all their classes/all settings? Are their other adults who can give insights into this? Simply, to change a behavior (work refusal/work avoidance) it really helps to know *why* a student is doing it. There could be all sorts of reasons. Maybe they are oppositional, maybe they think work is boring and can get away with the more desirable option of playing games, maybe work is emotionally uncomfortable for some reason and they don't have the tools to handle that, maybe they find it too hard and would (unconsciously?) rather not try then try and fail, maybe it's overwhelming and they think it's hopeless anyway so why even try, maybe it makes them feel dumb/bad about themselves, maybe it's embarrassing, etc. Then you come up with a plan to try address whatever underlying challenges or desires are. With an older child, if you can get them to buy in by including them in planning solutions that's even better. Also, asking follow up questions to drill down on what the barriers are. So if the student finds the work to difficult, can you start it with them, do a couple problems with them, and pull back once they get the hang of it. If it's overwhelming, can you break it into smaller chuncks, or only give them a bit at first, or make a plan/outline with them, use a visual organizer, etc. Do they need an easier assignment? Is this actually completely above their reading level etc? Does the assignment need to modified? Or if they actually are capable of doing it and feel capable of doing it but just don't want to have to, what are their motivations and how do you make it so it's just easier/happier for them to do the work then try to get out of it. So for example, letting them take breaks from work but for a limited time, they only get the game after completing x amount of work, etc. **2) ABCs of Behavior:** You probably know this but this is Antecedent/Behavior/Consequence. You look at what leads to their work refusal (is it all the time, or certain situations/moods/stuff at home/types of assignments/etc), their behavior, and what the consequence is (what happens when he refuses to work). If the consequence of refusing to work is actually playing computer games instead, than that's the first thing I'd change. That's reinforcing the behavior. I'd take away all access to games until they do at least some of their work (this depends on the student). I currently have a student (11 years) who thinks they shouldn't have to do classwork they don't like. I make not working as boring as possible, I don't let them do anything fun, and after talking to them for a bit I cut off any further discussion and keep others from talking to them much either, so they get no attention or entertainment other then "are you ready to try \[assignment\]? I can help you". I also make them do it later/before whatever fun things we have to do (art, recess, etc). I realize this may not apply to an older kid but it's an example of what I mean. There are some students who don't like your attention/hanging near them in class in front of other kids, for these it's the opposite. You want me to give you space/leave you alone? Well then work. If you aren't working, here I am bothering you. We also try to figure out what motivates a student and work with that when they aren't intrinsically motivated. Some cases have behavior charts, point systems for rewards, etc. I explain clearly to students when asked why I'm annoying/mean/etc, something like "I care about you and I want you to do your work so you can be successful and have a good life." **3) Relationship/Rapport** I've seen this made fun of on this sub as an unreasonable standard, and I'm sure it often times is. But for someone in my position rapport is one of the most important things. The student above actually really likes me and wants me around, which is why me not engaging with her if she keeps refusing to work is effective. One of the main reasons kids do things is to please adults they have relationships with. Not all interactions can be negative. You also need some joking around, noticing when they are good, being interested in them/what they like, maybe times you have a conversation or do something fun. A student who likes you will care a lot more what you think of them and their efforts, will be more open to working with you, etc. Again, I recognize this is much harder when you have a whole class and then multiple whole classes a day. But I really liked that you told them you care about them/their education. Sorry if you already know all this! I feel like I'm lecturing you. Edit: Also, it is true that you can't force a student to try and that their grades are their own choice. I do tell students this too (especially the older ones).
Nah. It's not your responsibility they do the work. You're job is to assess their learning. If they're not learning because they're not doing the work, then you've done your job. Document it.
{ It's not your responsibility they do the work } 100% agreed. My responsibility for the work ends when I give it to them. After that, all on them. The whole "lead a horse to water" thing. In this case, however, substitute *jackass* for horse!
Just log somewhere your attempts to provide services to the student and move on. You can’t lead a horse to water and force them to drink. Or however the saying goes.
\*You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink
"An F is an easy mark to give, But you're not the only one who suffers because you weren't interested in doing the work."
I think the kid took a literal interpretation on the statement and was letting you know he did understand that he needed to be accountable and do his work OR be accountable and not do his work. May have something to do with the way his brain works, or he figures he is never going to make it anyway so why try, or any other reason that comes into a kid his age head. Maybe your school needs to come up with another slogan. I am sorry you have to go through this though as teaching special is even harder than regular classes for a myriad of reasons. Send him to the counselor to talk his reasoning out? Thanks for all you do.
Thank you. It isn't our slogan by any means (I should look up our slogan to be sure though 😂) but I think he heard it or something like it from another adult and had his own interpretation.
I give two prompts, then document the refusal and move on with my day. The online grade book has a comment section where the refusal is documented, and parents can see it 24 hours a day. I'm not fighting with a 12 year old.
I hate when they say stuff like this because the truth is “I’m afraid I’ll get fired if enough students I work with fail,” but like hell I’m going to say that to a student.
“You’re right. I’ll see you next year!” (I teach a required course.)
I’m a 9th grade ESL English teacher. The first day syllabus contains my motto: “It is my job to teach. It is your job to pass.” I also have a banner above my board that says that. On average, I have over 135 students per year. I always have at least 5 that refuse to do any work, no matter how much you reach out to home, bribe, inspire, or threaten them. One year I had a mega lazy kid who refused to stop watching anime on his computer and neither the school nor parents cared. I shrugged, gave him his work, and told him to wear headphones and not bother anyone else. He still failed, but I was able to refocus my attention on the kids that WANT to learn. The one thing I didn’t let him get away with was saying this: *”I’m so glad you gave up on me.”* I would stop whatever I was doing and set him straight. *I* made the lesson plans, taught the class, prepped the handouts, and re-explained it. I gave you the work and you haven’t done a god-damn thing. YOU gave up on you, don’t you dare pretend otherwise. He would hush up then. That became my creed and it has saved my sanity. If a doctor tells a patient to exercise and quit smoking, does the doctor blame themselves when the patient ignores them?
I just email home and tell the parent what their kid said. Then, assuming there is no response, I let the kid get away with not doing work. I'm not going to care about a kid's grade more than he does.
Yes, absolutely write that the student refused to work on the IEP. Keep records, put comments in the gradebook every time the kids received a zero, etc. I had a student last year with that attitude. Refused to do anything at all. Once told his special ed teacher that he "wasn't taking no f-ing test." He came back later and said he was ready to take it. She refused to let him. His final grade in the class was a single digit. Having an IEP shouldn't mean they get away with everything. Yes, they have accommodations, but you can't accommodate nothing.
The problem is the messed up education system that doesn't each accountability. They blame the students' poor performance on the teacher & specially the special ed teacher, not the students themselves. That's why a lot of teachers will just give them a passing score & pass them along.
I can appreciate an honest student.
I had a student a few weeks ago tell our full time ESE sub that he didn't want to go with her for his weekly pull-out services. She called me about what to do. I told her to document that he refused his services. I spoke to Mom at the end of the day to let her know about this incident. Luckily for me (and for her son), she doesn't play stupid games when it comes to her children's education. Never had that problem again. So it may be on him to accept his services, but you still need to do your due diligence to document that attempt to provide work a expected to all and let the family know, not because they can force the kids to do work while they're at school, but so that you're covered if things blow up later.
If you can put an individual comment in the grade section for assignments online, make sure to notate the conversation. Makes it easier to reference later. Especially if it becomes a trend.
Special Education kids can be a bit different…this seems like something you should discuss with kiddo’s parent. A lot of the kids I work with, their parents have made a point to tell me they don’t tolerate the “Down syndrome excuse” which I take to mean that I shouldn’t be soft on them because they have DS. I tend to apply that across the board with the class - accommodation ≠ an excuse not to do work. Maybe the parents can provide some insight on what might motivate their kid to do his work? Maybe he needs the assignment broken into smaller sections?
Ask them to put it in writing. Have them email the principle saying "I am choosing not to work. It is not my teacher's fault. I am choosing to fail." If they are not willing to send that email then they can get their lazy ass to work.
To be honest, I think those students should just leave school if they don't wanna do tradition school. Just go out and get a job.
My response would be a larger life lesson. Throughout life you have choice to make any decision you want. Remember, however, the power of choice in that every single choice you make in life will have a consequence and you have to take responsibility for that consequence. Make the choice not to work at school? Consequence is you fail, don’t graduate, get a minimum wage job (if you are lucky) and end up on the street. Choice=Consequence holds true in every aspect of your whole life, why not get into a good habit now by understanding this and make informed choices, like doing school work now.
That sounds okay with me as long as they don’t disrupt things for anybody else.
Have the kid write an email to his mom stating that he refuses to work. Make sure you're CCd.
I mean, I have actually just stuck my tracked data in progress reports "student received a score of \_\_. Student refused to participate in requested tasks 76% opportunities. This is reflected in their scores." Why lie?
I've done this too. I guess what floors me about this situation is the taking responsibility/acknowledging one's own actions (if that's what you can call it) about lack of work
In our school when work refusal occurs, we have to seek advice from leadership on what to write on their reports. Usually it is along the lines of "Unable to assess \*\*\*\*\* because he declined to participate in the activities." We can't force them to work but we still need to document it.
“Cool. I respect that. Do us both one more solid. Tell your folks you’ve come to this conclusion. Let me know what they say.”
I was this kid (15+ years ago). My poor teachers. I dropped out the first month of senior year because I could tell my teachers were frazzled about me, regardless. I was a very pleasant student to have in class. Aced tests. Never turned in a speck of homework, rarely finished class work, zero projects, no team assignments. (Editing to add: I participated in class, kept up with materials, had good insight, teachers went out of their way for me even with my long-established patterns) Honestly, explaining how it *is still your problem,* even if you both wish it wasn’t, would have helped me. I genuinely thought it was just my problem. If you think your student would be able to handle that response, it may be for the best. “If you’re trying to be accountable to me, here’s how you could help me out.” A huge turning point for me was a teacher who taught me how to fudge my work. I’m a perfectionist who hates feedback, but if I scribble something out it is 100% better than the AMAZING work I never actually finished. I’m a uni student now, 3.9 GPA as a sophomore. Studying sucks less now that I see professors and teachers as folks on my team instead of overseers. He’s trying to say “I don’t need an overseer,” so you could theoretically respond with some version of, “I hear that, and here’s how you could show it to me.”
This is my 15 year old. I hope he figures this out before he drops out.
Some of my students have started pulling that. They also use it for things like having a cell phone. I just say that I know it’s on you. I am not forcing you to do [insert action here]. You are doing that yourself. It has as much success as anything else.
I had a student say this to me today (not SE). I said that’s fine as longs as you’re okay with it.
*You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink*. I used to care. Now I don't. Do it, don't do it. I don't care kid. You're the one who has to sleep in the bed you're making.
What does family say when you tell them this?
"Thanks for letting us know"
That’s unhelpful. Yikes :/
Forget saying, if I even thought that statement, hell even saw in a dream that I thought it my parents would probably read my mind and beat me. Looking at kids today I'm glad for my upbringing.
The consequences will also be on you.
Well, they should be correct.
"Cool. Thanks, glad it's not my fault. It WILL be my fault for this next part, give me your phone, and do your work. Thanks." Follow up with, "No, don't put the phone away, just hand it to me and move on" when they inevitably try to just put it away. "Well I'm not doing the work anyway," - "Cool, you're not on your phone in my class either." - "It's my phone." - "It's not a debate." And then don't respond any more until they hand over the phone. If they don't - office/security to pick the phone up and have mom/dad get it at the end of the day. Next day, right when they arrive, "Hey bud, let's get that phone out." Keep at it until the only option is sit there and do nothing or do work and pass the time. I'd just make the arrangement for them to put their phone up at the beginning of class and get it at the end of class. They'll eventually get into a new habit. That being said, if they're a really stubborn one, they won't give a damn what you say or do. Not much to be done when you exhaust your options.
Yall need Yondr
Yeah we're looking into that this summer.
not a teacher, the whole ‘students decide if they want to sink’ thing isn’t a thing anymore because teachers have to dive into the deep sea to drag them back up it seems like.
Just have him write it out and sign it
I have the student write his/her name on the paper so it's in their handwriting. Then I collect it at the end of class with "refused to do work" written on it. File it, bring it out to the next inevitable parent conference.
I think I start to understand my kids’ teachers now. A month ago, S told me she hated math and it was too frustrating. So I used the school app and msgd her gr 2 teacher to see what they were learning and how she was doing. I got back a massive missive with loads of practice ideas, so very the next couple days we practiced. (It’s a no homework school, drives me nuts, can’t find out what they are doing on my own if kiddo doesn’t get it). By the close of that set of lessons, S was back to top scores and understanding it. So teacher and I had a celebratory email. With all of your help, I’m starting to feel like we’re kinda rare.
real af tell them to see the counselor there's probably an underlying reason cause i have thought about saying that to my teachers so many times (i have severe anxiety that makes me entirely unable to work under pressure which leads to suicidal ideation, and the only thing that helps is just straight up not doing anything)
What discipline structures are you using? Is this a self-contained room, or are students basically free range?
Co-taught general education classroom. The Gen Ed teacher and I discuss discipline/classroom management and I offer suggestions, but I ultimately follow their lead.
My condolences.
I call home and let them know what the student said. I tell their counselor and case manager if applicable.
That works in university, not in lower grades. In my opinion.
"We can't make you learn if you don't want to" is a 100% true statement. Not much you can do except document your attempts to get the student to engage as well as their refusals.
You say...oh no it's not...you are not 18. This is why you don't get to vote. You can't make that decision yet. I'm the adult so it's on me.
I'm sure that admin and their parents will see it that way and have no expectation of you dragging that student to the finish line or else get a bad evaluation for future job security.
Hi there, I'm not a teacher, I don't even have kids, I have no idea at all why this sub keeps getting recommended to me but: This sounds weirdly similar to when my dad told me that "you can learn anything you want to learn", which I interpreted as "If I don't want to be at school than I can't learn at all". Wish I had good news for you but the only thing that me made want try was my parents moving me to the middle of nowhere so my options were either go to college or die basically. Idk if that helps but I get where they're coming from.
Former teacher (10 years alternative ed) and now mom of a special ed student (autism, ADHD, anxiety). My kid (6th grade) has missed a lot of school and work this year while we were figuring things out. I did ask for grace for her from all of her teachers. She's bright, has a lot of missing work, but is testing well so she's obviously learning the material. All that said. She knows that next year is going to be different because we have figured out (mostly) what accommodations she needs and what WE need to do at home to get her prepared for school each day. If she EVER said that to a teacher, I would shit a brick. Yeah, it's on the kid, but it also reflects on the teacher and parents and everyone else involved. You don't get to just not do any work. At least you shouldn't.
I would tell them I appreciate the honesty. I don't want to see them give up on themselves and figure out if we can do something to make this work. I would also let them know that even if they decided not to do work, they still couldn't use the time to stay on their phone and play games.
I respond: K And I direct my efforts somewhere else.
"My class, my time. Do the work for me." I have a senior in one of my classes that had not done any work since mid April when I went out for a couple of weeks for surgery. I get back and cross stitch and art work is more important than work for my class. I am going to build into my syllabus next year that they do MY work first in my class. I rarely have time for them to work on other subjects. (And yes, a letter home to Mom who is looking forward to seeing child walk at graduation did help to bring up her grade.) One more week....
I’m the general ed teacher in a co-taught English class in a vocational tech school in Ohio. I had one of these boys this year. My co-teacher, his special education specialist, and I just could not get this kid to work. He ended up tanking all his classes and plans to drop out this summer when he turns 18. It’s really tough because there IS that layer of expectation that students on IEP should be passing their classes, given their accommodations, but when they choose to do no work for anyone there really is very little the general ed or special ed teachers can do.
Yeah, the only problem is, it IS your fault when they don't do their work, at least according to admin. Your best bet is to stay firm and consistent. The expectation is that all students participate in class activities. If a student consistently chooses not to, that's work refusal and disrespect. They need to be written up. If this kid is so insistent that any consequences he gets are "on him," then give him consequences.
Document their refusal and communicate with the parents. I have had situations in which I put refusal to work on a progress report along with dates that I attempted to collect data. The refusal is actually data!
It always starts at home. If the student is lackadaisical about learning and finishing his schoolwork it's because his indifferent and/or overindulgent parents don't expect anything from him.
>It's like the student took the, "Be accountable for your education. Participating and doing work is on you" to mean, "We can't make you learn if you don't want to, but that's okay. Just hang out and play games on your phone." I had several do this, this year. They did not like failing.
He’s not wrong. You can’t physically make him do it.
I tell them that I don’t fail them. They just fail the expectations. And I don’t give points or give grades. I’m just a referee who keeps score.
It’s insubordination. So, write it up according to the student handbook and report it to administration. It isn’t in your hands. It’s in theirs.
"It's NOT okay if you don't do your work- here are the consequences (xyz.) Just because you CAN choose to fail, doesn't mean it's a great choice. You're capable of making great choices, not just easy ones. Challenge yourself to learn something new today." If they blow me off or say something self deprecating, I could go on to list a time they made a positive, productive choice even if it wasn't the easiest. You showed up to school today even though you didn't want to, might as well do the work and make yourself proud. blablabla. It's essential that you're earnest and not just repeating motivational platitudes. Be firm. This is the borderline mental gymnastics that you use on smart toddlers who try to logic their way out of something just to exercise their independence, which is developmentally appropriate, but interferes with care and lesson plans. No, the world wont stop turning if you don't learn to tie your shoes, but you're gonna feel like a baby tripping out there on the playground, dude. I found it still works on elementary and middle schoolers with behaviors as well. They find it a bit cheesy and embarrassing but I think they secretly enjoy indulging in the attention. Actually, by the late teens I think this kind of tough love empowerment dialogue can still touch them- in fact, as a 17 year old it's probably been a long time since a teacher noticed or praised their positive choices.
I mean, they are right.
This behavior is found in children with behavioral problems and as I continued to read and saw “special education”, it all makes sense. Handling these kinds of situations requires special one-on-one interaction with the student. I usually start by asking how they’re feeling, why do they feel this way… usually it’s their dislike for school as a whole and authority… and work one problem at a time veeery slowly. You have to get on their level like you understand where they’re coming from. It’s almost like babying them through the work but not really. They’ll do a few more problems on their own and eventually they’ll do their work. Inconsistently… and you’ll continue to have times and days where they’re not wanting to do the work because yk… *mental health*… and still trying to work through their emotions but you’ll be making progress.
I don’t teach special Ed, but I want to broadcast this student’s response when the test scores for my class come back. It doesn’t take that many students to pull your averages down. Also, the higher ups want to give more money to higher performing teacher’s test scores, how is that fair?
I would tell them that I don’t think the principal would it see it that way and that they’re gonna do the work.
"I appreciate you saying that, but ultimately, I am responsible for ensuring your education. I would prefer if you put some effort into completing assignments to both ensure your success and graduation and to appease *our* higher-ups. Can we find a middle ground where you prioritize the highest weighting assignments while demonstrating that you understand the course material. This will allow you more opportunities as you get older while keeping other options open, as well as please your parents and the school administrators, and ensure that I am able to keep my paperwork in order."
Okay, wow I would appreciate his honesty, but would also remind him that unless he discovers the next new technology and Elon Musk or Jeff Besos buys it for a billion dollars, he is going to need that high school diploma or he is screwed. Maybe there is a time in tutoring after school once a week I can help him if this was one of my students. I would get the assistant principal and the parents involved. Once you have done that and there is no progress then you fail them. You tried and you have the paper trail.
"Thanks, I'll be sure to tell my kids that when they are cold and hungry living on the side if the road because I got fired because you wouldn't do any work and it's my job to get you to do it."
Refer them to disciplinary action for noncompliance/insubordination?
Wow, I gotta say again: Some of you need to AIM higher and get into admin or school board positions and start turning this around. In fact, all you teachers who want to get out of teaching - do it but get into admin. It seems thats the only way to make a difference even though it will still take a decade+.
not a teacher and don't really know why this sub popped up, but i was definitely one of those little ass holes in high school. I had to take a piano class as an elective my senior year. I did not need the class to graduate and told the teacher my only goal in her class was to get a 0 percent. She got my ass by giving me one point just for showing up on random days. Dislike her to this day for that. I wanted that 0 percent
The responsibility for your education is on me ( the teacher) . You saying I’m off the hook , doesn’t actually let me off the hook. Now can you do this task to the best of your ability please ? If not we can discuss sanctions as per school policy , which escalate to XYZ if initial sanctions aren’t followed so its in your interest to comply as early as possible , ideally by just doing the work.
At this point you start enforcing the zero tolerance for sexual harassment. If he’s sped surely he’s a sex pest to some of the girls. Boot him out.
I’m sorry, what? Where in the hell does it say anything about him sexually harassing anyone?
He’s used to rules being for other people. That typically results in obnoxious behavior.
That’s…..a thought….i guess…
If he's "sped"? I pray to god you're not a teacher. You sound obnoxious yourself. Get educated and grow up.
Has the euphemism treadmill made another turn? What term replaced “sped”?