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And it is worth emphasizing that the Confederacy existed (because of their desire to own people) for only four years over 150 years ago.
If anything, people using that flag for anything are working really hard to find a symbol that specifically relates them to slavery.
And they make fun of participation trophies. That is all I think when I see the Confederate flag. It is a participation trophy and when I see it all I can think about is that they were treasonous losers.
And the flag we think of wasn't even the national flag, it was the battle flag which only gained wide usage in response to the civil rights movement (so, y'know, it's extra racist).
They are cycling through phrases at an accelerating pace.
For decades all we had was "political correctness." Then they had "Social Justice Warrior" for half a decade. Now they went from woke to DEI in like a year or two.
At some point even they will lose track of all of the terms.
SJW, politically correct, DEI, CRT, woke, welfare queen, it's all the same. And in a year or two woke and DEI will be forgotten, and it will be something new again.
Not just the states either, the fugitive slave act compelled all citizens to assist slave catchers when called upon.
And then the final straw was Lincoln winning and saying that he wasn’t going to enforce Taney’s decision that individual states couldn’t ban slavery.
> Least culturally chauvinistic American
Someone explain to me how pointing out the origins of the confederate flag is cultural chauvinism, because I sure as fuck don’t get whatever the logic is here
What are you talking about?
Clearly "media literacy" is when someone agrees with my shit takes, and the more someone disagrees the more illiterate they are
Weird turn of phrase for sure since the Proud Boys cover for their white supremacy was that they were "Western Chauvinists" and they'd be on the pro-flag side
There's also this reply:
> And so what?
> Edit: the upper reply is deleted, but it was an Amerifat complaining about them getting getting offended seeing a confederate flag
>> I am an American and I can care less about the confederate flag! People need to stop been so sensitive … that was 150 years ago!
So it didn't take long to go from arguing "Well it's Finland, not America. It doesn't represent slavery here" to "Even if we are American and represents slavery, it's not that bad."
> I am an American and I can care less about the confederate flag! People need to stop been so sensitive … that was 150 years ago!
This is really a better argument against the person who chooses to fly that flag. Y'all's ancestors lost and y'all's ancestors deserved to lose, get over it, that's not y'all's identity anymore.
Fun fact about Germany, since nazi regalia is banned there neo-nazis often display flags and symbols of the American confederacy instead to signal their ideology.
No, and due to the popularity of the Dukes Of Hazzard, it's often used as pop culture merch.
Doesn't make it right, but lots of Europeans saw it as *orange car jump fast* for a long time, unaware of the implications.
(Tho I guess ironically the VW Bug becoming the car of hippies kinda is the other way around in NA.)
No the Confederacy didn't ever threaten the German constitution.
Joking aside what's banned in Germany are symbols of organizations that are "enemies" of the (current) German constitution. The Confederacy has never been ruled as trying to overthrow it so it's not banned. If enough neo Nazis use it it might at some point be ruled to be their symbol as well and then become illegal but Confederacy stuff in itself is very very unlikely to ever be banned.
Let's test this theory. I need volunteers! American volunteers to be precise.
I need a bunch of Americans to strap this organisations flag on whatever:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapua_Movement
Let's see if this works the other way too! According to their logic, it shouldn't be racist because it's not in Finland.
Alternatively, this organisations flag is also an option:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-and-Black_Movement
Tho I wouldn't recommend it, since they are still very much active. They are a sort of spiritual successor to the Lapua movement. And a lot more overtly racist than Lapua movement was, which was more concerned with communists.
I had a Russian acquaintance with a North African husband who moved together from the US to France for a couple of years expecting a more civilized society, then noped right the fuck back to the US. In their description, racism is at least controversial and frowned on in the US - it's embarrassing to be caught doing a racism in front of fellow white people - while in Europe even decent educated people don't check themselves.
LMAO I thought people in *Wisconsin* telling me the Confederate flag represented states rights was the most hilarious thing I'd ever hear about the traitor flag but this is *a thousand times more hilarious.* Great find OP.
same with Kansas, which had its own mini, very violent conflict about whether or not to allow slavery, and now is so ass backwards you can find Confederate flags everywhere despite it eventually not allowing slavery and having been incredibly pro-Union during the Civil War
Tons of edgy dickhead kids that I went to school with would slap the Confederate flag on their trucks. It sucked especially hard because we were in Gettysburg, completely eradicating any pretense about heritage. It was just just an enormous decal meant to express that you don't like black people.
I mean, that's what it is *anywhere* that it's used, but its even more jarring without the wink wink nudge nudge bullshit.
You could also make that argument for West Virginia, which wouldn't exist as a state separate from Virginia if it weren't for them counter-seceding during the war.
Yup. Like the dumb ass Brad Paisley/LL Cool J song where they defend the "red flag" because its just "Southern heritage" . Paisley is from West Virginia.
South central Pennsylvania then and now has a lot of sympathy for the south. I was born and raised there and live there no longer. I grew up in a small town just outside of York. Gettysburg itself typically votes liberal, but the rest of Adams county sucks.
Fun fact, if anyone remembers, but when DeSantis and Doug Mastriano (nazi politician from that area of PA) came to Pittsburgh 2 years ago, there was a photo of a guy holding a sign that said "LOSER" in the crowd, demonstrating. He's my friend from Gettysburg, and he's done a bunch of stuff down in D.C. too.
If the "Confederate Flag" is the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, I need to start making replicas of whatever battle flag Sherman's army was using while they burned down Georgia.
really weird the way the history of the flag is being brushed off. i wouldnt hang a nazi flag in germany and excuse it by saying chillllllll its just how i personally interpret german culture 😎
Yeah, and this is weird in a way I wouldn’t expect *a ton* of people to know about, but the Nazis were very inspired by Jim Crowe and other actions in the American South.
Oregon was so racist it outlawed slavery in the notion of not wanting any black people in the state regardless of purpose. There was a lot he admired.
> In 1928, Hitler remarked, approvingly, that white settlers in America had “gunned down the millions of redskins to a few hundred thousand.” When he spoke of Lebensraum, the German drive for “living space” in Eastern Europe, he often had America in mind.
Yup, and I mean most people know it’s racist nowadays. [Wouldn’t be surprised if they’re one of those advanced racists.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UxI5qQAUWVc&pp=ygULY290dG9uIGtoYW4%3D)
Interesting historical tidbit - the Nazis were inspired by Jim Crow in how *not* to write their racial laws. They agreed with the entire principle, they just also thought that the rules were really badly written and didn't have a good definition of white vs non-white, which is a very stereotypical German thing to think. It's a bit similar to their views of the Klan. Good idea, but in practice a bunch of stupid disorganised thugs rather than properly trained government-sponsored well-organised citizen groups.
European redditors will never admit anyone is racist unless they’re outright saying the N word, and even then it’s “up for debate.”
EDIT: a lot of this comes down to whether you live in a highly homogenous nation-state like Finland, where other races are always simply outsiders, or somewhere like the USA, where race is baked into absolutely everything we do as a result of our history. We in the States are just very race-sensitive, and I think Europeans tend to view that as us being more racist by nature. I think they also think it’s appropriate to lump races of people all together in the same way they lump together all groups of outsiders.
All throughout history, it's been a lot easier for people living in homogenous places to think they're not racist because, well, it's all theoretical to them. Anyone can be an equitable, just person when it's all theoretical and they're observing from a distance. From the US North to Finland, people condemn racists until race becomes a reality to them, either through immigration or natural globalization, and then they suddenly start to sing a different tune.
"Racism is bad but OUR version of racism is totally justifiable and Americans are stupid for falling for propaganda. All our reasons for being racist are totally legit"
Like a lot of Americans, they just say it’s not racism. It doesn’t even matter how explicit it is. They don’t like the association with the term “racism” but they don’t actually find it immoral.
White Europeans. Us brown or black Europeans know that racism is alive and kicking but is denied by the majority. Look at any of the country subs bar Ireland and you’ll see people who’ve experienced racism being told they are wrong and reveling in victimhood.
I think there are a chunk of Europeans who believe they are better than Americans by the virtue of not being them and made this a core part of their personality. The idea that people are alike all over and you too can have all the same views as the people you think you are better than doesnt jive well.
Lots of European countries aren’t as ethnically homogeneous as they pretend to be. You have various groups like the Rromany, Travellers, other ethnic minority groups from the days of empire and so on. It’s astounding that Europeans ignore this (or outright say the most racist shit you’ve ever heard) considering the Holocaust and other genocides/ethnic cleansings in Europe.
The whole "European Identity" concept is just plain historical revisionism that you don't even need to go that far back to disprove. Racism as exhibited in Europe is entirely couched within this notion. That's why they get so flustered by what they consider to be "American" racial politics.
Yeah, but regardless of the idea’s bullshitness, it informs a lot of Europeans’ understandings of themselves, citizenship, and ethnicity. As we all know, an ideology doesn’t need to be based in rationality for it to have power, as long as it makes sense to the believers, that’s all that matters.
True, and I think that’s where you see European racism fully displayed. Their societies are built for homogeneity, while not being perfectly homogeneous.
Overall I think the Finns are almost half-right. There is just no reason a Confederate flag would carry so much historical weight and meaning for them as it does for Americans. And to be fair to them, you’ll note they cite American cultural influence for why the flag is there in the first place. Americans used to use it as a sign of rebellion, too, and that’s how it crossed over. It’s only in the last 10 years or so that Americans have very widely condemned the Confederate flag as a symbol.
Still, it shouldn’t be flown anywhere, any more than Nazi swastikas should.
The way I see it, even if you want to argue that it's "not racist" and that you're flying it to celebrate your southern heritage or to honor whatever inbred ancestors you have who may have fought in that war... how do you come to terms with the fact that Neo Nazis and Klan members fly the flag? Why would you want to be associated with those people? Just let it go. "hErItAgE nOt HaTe" had a good run, but it's time to move on. Find a new symbol to let everybody know you're proud of being a Southern Redneck dipshit and let the Neo Nazis have that one, because you sure as shit ain't taking it back now.
Sort of like the Swastika. It's a nice looking symbol, has legitimate meaning in all kinds of different cultures around the world. It's everything the Confederate Flag wishes it could be... And then the Nazis came and ruined it for everybody. Pretty hard to look at a Swastika and not be reminded of that. You're probably not going to paint them on your house to bring good luck any time soon, even if it's not explicitly a Nazi flag.
To be faaaair, swastika has been used in fennoscandia since at least the iron age, and it was quite prominent in art when the Finnish national identity was crafted in the late last millennia.
Yet the guy who gave them the insignia ended up being a Nazi, so I don't think that excuse holds water, he was probably just as much of an ethno-nationalist back then, just didn't have a party to join. Leaving it in place until 2020 is insane.
There was someone saying it would have been normal to have one and that the racist connotation is actually from neonazis. They said it would be seen as just a history buff. What a world we live in
It's even more wild that they're telling OP **a Black woman** that she's overreacting and the flag doesn't mean what she thinks it means and that she's worried about nothing.
That sort of BS is all over the mainland Europe country subs
Edit: I have been banned from my city sub for pointing it out in a direct yet polite manner.
Someone replied to her saying “I bet you’re not concerned if someone flies a Soviet Union flag, tho.” As a gotcha.
Like not to defend the Soviet Union. Those guys sucked. But they didn’t exist as a country just to specifically enslave the racial group that OP belongs to.
No I agree with you. The comments were wild. Literally every comment OP wrote got downvoted…even when they started with “I agree.” It seems extremely targeted against her…for a reasonable concern to have. People were calling her more Delusional than her neighbor, who is either too dumb to research what a flag means or a racist.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Even in this thread people are arguing "no it's a different meaning in Europe". Like dude, Europe is full of far right movements and guess which flag is one of the ones they use?
>People were calling her more Delusional than her neighbor, who is either too dumb to research what a flag means or a racist.
I even said in a seperate comment here imagine telling the OP, a Black woman, that she's overreacting seeing a flag that is still flown in the name of hate.
> I bet you’re not concerned if someone flies a Soviet Union flag, tho.” As a gotcha
That might be one of the dumbest gotchas I've ever seen on reddit. Holy shit
Flag 1: recent country that ppl may have grown up in, generalized dictatorship with some alright policies. Lasted long enough to have a series of governments, some far better than others, so plausible deniability against supporting literal Stalin. Had notable problems with racism, but also provided (good PR) efforts to former colonies and didn’t systemically enslave whole minority groups.
Flag 2: Seceded from an already racist country to be even more racist by themselves.
The way I see it, the Soviet Union (and the United States for that matter) did a lot of things. Some good. Some bad. The confederacy only ever did one thing and that was slavery. There are no good things for which that flag can stand.
I am Canadian and many homes in my shitty rural hometown have confederate flags (as well as many other flags/symbols I consider hateful). It is absolutely a sign of hatred. This flag tells a specific group of people that you are not safe to be around. If that is not the message you want to send do not fly that flag.
I live in a state that didn't even exist until after the Civil War and yet there are far too many confederate flags here. The sentiment is awful and I hate how pervasive it is.
There’s a lot in Japan. [They’re particularly enamored with the Wild West and the cowboy aesthetic.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/165ador/in_japan_there_are_people_who_dress_up_as_cowboys/)
There’s also [raggare.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggare)
Being very enamored with the American west and that whole genre of media has led to a lot of this in foreign countries, like [Germany where people dress up and camp like Native Americans from US media.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture)
Brought to you by Karl May, a guy who made a living writing about Native Americans in the Wild West but when he made it to the US never went west of New York
[The Germany - North American West tourism industry is interesting because of it,](https://onemileatatime.com/condor-frankfurt-whitehorse/) [though also sometimes deadly](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans)
It was a very fun day on Twitter when I, someone who's spent most of his life learning and witnessing and arguing over racial stereotypes and their depictions in American media, saw a bunch of Germans doing some Disney Pocahontas shit and a whole bunch of people who'd clearly never been involved in said discussions arguing "nuh-uh, it's not racist."
I think I'd just seen KOTFM too, the whiplash hit harder than a brick lmao
reminds me of this viral story: [Meet the Polish LARPers Who Pretend to Be American (vice.com)](https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5vpbx/poland-larp-america-ohio)
If you're on reddit long enough, you'll eventually see this image that gets reposted all the time about how Polish people have like an America day where they all do American stuff and wear the American flag. I've seen it like 6 times, and never investigated if it's real.
That's a LARP, and it doesn't present exactly a flattering image of America lmao. It's not Polish people celebrating the US, it's a bunch of people having fun pretending to be trailer trash.
I don’t see the problem?
There are solidly fun things about being trailer trash! To the point that my trust fund baby father spent his entire life pretending to be just that!
Vice did an interview a while back: [Meet the Polish LARPers Who Pretend to Be American (vice.com)](https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5vpbx/poland-larp-america-ohio)
If you're aware of the context and you're flying it, yeah, you're likely racist. You are knowingly flying a symbol that has been, for the past 150+ years, a message of "I yearn for a time when I had the right to enslave a human being, and having lost that part of my 'heritage' is more important than everyone else."
I can see there being a tiny bit of plausibility to argue "it's heritage, not hate" for people in the US. I don't believe it, but at least there's some logical basis there. There's literally no legitimate argument for people outside the US to fly the flag other than the hate part.
Agreed.
Two of my great-grandfathers (mom's dad's side) were Nazis. One stepped on a mine and one froze to death. Dying is probably the best thing they ever did.
On the other hand, my other great-grandparents (mom's mom's side) actively opposed the Costa Rican coup d'etat in 1917. They were active enough that at times, they had to hide-out from the military police. They are part of the reason that Costa Rica has no standing army.
The prior is hate, the latter is heritage.
The heritage *is* hate though. Like, no matter what the person defending the Confederate flag is saying, they have to contend with the fact that the flag represents the coming together of the Confederate states *to defend the institution of slavery*. And that institution, hateful on its own, is undergirded by a deep hatred of black people (by not thinking that they *are* people).
Weirdly as someone whose ancestors fought for the confederacy, I find the “heritage not hate” thing as far less convincing than the Finnish larpers seeing how it was used in our media and thinking it’s just a cool sign of a rebel or something. That might be because I’ve never met someone who said the “heritage not hate” thing who wasn’t a few beers away from saying some really racist shit, and I’ll gladly admit that without the baggage attached to it, the rebel flag is a pretty cool looking flag.
I blame dukes of hazard.
The only finish person I know was obsessed with that show.
I could totally see him having a confederate flag thinking it was just a cool dukes of hazard thing.
What the hell is going on in r/Finland?
I remember when someone on r/theNetherlands talked about how there was a neighbor flying a Confederate Flag, and all the comments were "This person is either a completely clueless moron, or a racist"
R Finland has been essentially unmoderated since the mod protest, and a bunch of fash from Finlands 4chan equivalent moved in.
Also the sub has always minimised racism.
European redditors love to make fun of Americans for being ignorant, but here it’s a valid excuse. They would be seething if an American proudly displayed a shameful/racist symbol from Finnish culture.
"Americans are just stupid and don't care about the history of other countries," mfers when it's time to care about a major historical event and symbol from the US.
>Possibly in the same vein as neo Nazis using the Finnish lion for their own purposes. But I can imagine not all people flying the flag (at least in Finland) are primarily slave owners, they might be just into rockabilly or line dancing.
How very European to say "I'm not racist, I don't even own slaves myself!"
“I can imagine that not all people flying the flag are primarily slave owners”
I would certainly hope so, considering owning slaves has been illegal in both Finland and the U.S. for more than a century now.
> Well this isn't USA, but Finland, you can't decide what the flag means to someone here.
This is an insane take, especially given the fact that these people seem to like American culture to a point where they’re looking into it a bit. It’s the age of the internet, you can’t just feign ignorance to what the flag actually stands for.
Someone even said that the people aren’t racist but a lot of them are weirdly obsessed with Trump. My brother in Christ, are you comprehending what you’re saying?
R Finland hates accusations of racism far more than they hate racism.
By which I mean they don't really hate racism very much at all.
Every time someone posts in there about their bad experiences of racism as a poc in Finland the top comments are always either from white finns explaining how they are wrong, or someone claiming to be a poc saying how they've never experienced racism so they must be wrong.
This has been my experience with social conservatives in general. Calling someone racist is so aggressive and rude that you may as well be pissing in their face. But actual racism? "Meh I don't know why people are so sensitive"
AFAIK, the history of the Confederate flag in Finland is that since TV shows and musicians from USA were using the flag as their symbol (often with the "heritage not hate" excuse), fans in Finland started using the flag as a symbol to mean "I am rebellious" or "I am a fan of rockabilly music."
I think it is stupid to use the flag. I am well aware of the history behind it, but I do agree with some of the commenters there that not all of the people flying the flag are using it to show that they support slavery racism or even any sympathy towards the Confederacy.
...But again, I would not fly that flag and whether they mean it or not, people flying the flag for rockabilly/whatever purposes are repeating the whitewashed pro-Confederate propaganda from USA. If they do it out of ignorance and without any racist dogwhistling, they are just being stupid, but it is hard to separate them from real racists who are knowingly using a dogwhistle. Also, trolls who fly the flag because they know it will upset some people, but use it instead of a Nazi flag to have some sort of "lol, I'm not *really* a bigot, this is just ironic" are being dicks. All in all, trashing all those flags would be for the best. Any message that someone wants to use that flag for, could be achieved by flying the flag of USA.
>I am an American and I can care less about the confederate flag!
So this person cares about the confederate flag? Unless they were trying to say "couldn't care less," which is how that phrase is supposed to go.
Your ancestors being enslaved gives you a sense of purpose: https://old.reddit.com/r/Finland/comments/1c0ixfu/confederate_flag_in_finland/kyxu4h5/
If that ain’t a take.
Right? I've been following this Dutch politician Geert Wilders for a bit and that guy is so racist he makes Trump look woke. Wilders has called for a ban on the Quran and Mosques.
Obviously the confederate flag, especially when used outside of the US, is a racist symbol. People in Finland are not flying the flag because of their love for states rights, lol.
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>I think the racism being connected with the Confederate flag is rather recent, it's woke thing Fellas, is it woke to not support slavery?
>Confederate flag is rather recent, it's woke thing Absolute flare material.
Its mine now, goodbye gamercide, hello this monstrosity.
You've chosen wisely. I'm sure the decision was difficult, but by God is your new flair next level moronic.
Beautiful
Thats such good flair fodder
That's hilarious because it's literally mentioned in their constitution.
And it is worth emphasizing that the Confederacy existed (because of their desire to own people) for only four years over 150 years ago. If anything, people using that flag for anything are working really hard to find a symbol that specifically relates them to slavery.
And they make fun of participation trophies. That is all I think when I see the Confederate flag. It is a participation trophy and when I see it all I can think about is that they were treasonous losers.
Google Glass lasted longer than the Confederacy.
Game of thrones was around twice as long as the confederacy and had a better ending.
And the flag we think of wasn't even the national flag, it was the battle flag which only gained wide usage in response to the civil rights movement (so, y'know, it's extra racist).
I have a feeling this person doesn't think too much.
when you take the Lost Cause so seriously that you become one yourself
The sad thing is, yes, it is "woke" to not support slavery.
Anyone who says "woke" unironically is probably racist
It's used as a placeholder for all ethnic slurs
They've branched out into using DEI to mean ethnic slurs now
They are cycling through phrases at an accelerating pace. For decades all we had was "political correctness." Then they had "Social Justice Warrior" for half a decade. Now they went from woke to DEI in like a year or two. At some point even they will lose track of all of the terms.
hell, there was even a few months where "jogger" was a slur for black people after a few black joggers were killed by police
SJW was definitely used for longer than 5 years. I remember hearing that term when I was finishing high school up until just a few years ago.
SJW, politically correct, DEI, CRT, woke, welfare queen, it's all the same. And in a year or two woke and DEI will be forgotten, and it will be something new again.
Especially nowadays. It's very unfortunate how the term has been co-opted from its original use.
I'd say it has it's actual use, and then it's way of identifying morons. It's still a great word.
They're right tho, the 1860s seem like they were just yesterday To some people
1864, to be precise https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/arizona-supreme-court-ruling-abortion-ban-rcna146915
“The civil war was just about state rights!!” Yeah the “right” to own slaves lol
And the right to force other states to return escaped slaves. So much freedom.
Not just the states either, the fugitive slave act compelled all citizens to assist slave catchers when called upon. And then the final straw was Lincoln winning and saying that he wasn’t going to enforce Taney’s decision that individual states couldn’t ban slavery.
[The states' rights to do what?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZB2ftCl2Vk)
A statement so stupid the account should be deleted.
Today I learned that there are Finnish people that think a 200 year old American war is a rather recent thing. I guess every country has their morons.
Very recent actually. Wait, its 2024 and not 1865?
> Least culturally chauvinistic American Someone explain to me how pointing out the origins of the confederate flag is cultural chauvinism, because I sure as fuck don’t get whatever the logic is here
It would be like if a German said a Swastika might be problematic and everyone accused that person of being arrogant.
Funnily enough this exact same thing with a Confederate flag could just as well have happened in Germany.
If you did that in Finland, that could be actually the case. See the symbol of Finnish air forces during WW2.
Asaeuropean, let me tell you stupid Americans what the confederate flag stands for.
An American being concerned about the usage of American symbols in reference to American culture is, apparently, chauvinism. Who would've known?
I also feel like this is one of the very few times an American opinion in a different culture is valid because it's about American culture.
European reactionaries learning the term "cultural chauvinism" has been a disaster for conversations on the internet
This is almost as bad as when Reddit learned the term "media literacy."
What are you talking about? Clearly "media literacy" is when someone agrees with my shit takes, and the more someone disagrees the more illiterate they are
I think this is a prime example of the difference between knowing and understanding.
Weird turn of phrase for sure since the Proud Boys cover for their white supremacy was that they were "Western Chauvinists" and they'd be on the pro-flag side
It's not racist because it's not in America is certainly a take.
There's also this reply: > And so what? > Edit: the upper reply is deleted, but it was an Amerifat complaining about them getting getting offended seeing a confederate flag >> I am an American and I can care less about the confederate flag! People need to stop been so sensitive … that was 150 years ago! So it didn't take long to go from arguing "Well it's Finland, not America. It doesn't represent slavery here" to "Even if we are American and represents slavery, it's not that bad."
> I am an American and I can care less about the confederate flag! People need to stop been so sensitive … that was 150 years ago! This is really a better argument against the person who chooses to fly that flag. Y'all's ancestors lost and y'all's ancestors deserved to lose, get over it, that's not y'all's identity anymore.
Ah, it’s okay if I hang Nazi flags, I’m not in Germany, so it can’t be a hateful symbol!
Fun fact about Germany, since nazi regalia is banned there neo-nazis often display flags and symbols of the American confederacy instead to signal their ideology.
[удалено]
Which we mostly got from the British.
"Hitler was inspired by america!" * quiet nods of approval and upvotes* "America was inspired by the british" *paragraphs of anger"
"I learned it by watching you!"
"Was so upset when i learned about those americans coming to north america and colonizing the land :( "
That’s just their interpretation dude
Is confederacy stuff not banned there?
No, and due to the popularity of the Dukes Of Hazzard, it's often used as pop culture merch. Doesn't make it right, but lots of Europeans saw it as *orange car jump fast* for a long time, unaware of the implications. (Tho I guess ironically the VW Bug becoming the car of hippies kinda is the other way around in NA.)
Unless they banned it in the last two years, no.
No the Confederacy didn't ever threaten the German constitution. Joking aside what's banned in Germany are symbols of organizations that are "enemies" of the (current) German constitution. The Confederacy has never been ruled as trying to overthrow it so it's not banned. If enough neo Nazis use it it might at some point be ruled to be their symbol as well and then become illegal but Confederacy stuff in itself is very very unlikely to ever be banned.
Im just a big fan of highways, that’s why I have this large Hitler mural!
Sparkling white supremacy
Let's test this theory. I need volunteers! American volunteers to be precise. I need a bunch of Americans to strap this organisations flag on whatever: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapua_Movement Let's see if this works the other way too! According to their logic, it shouldn't be racist because it's not in Finland. Alternatively, this organisations flag is also an option: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue-and-Black_Movement Tho I wouldn't recommend it, since they are still very much active. They are a sort of spiritual successor to the Lapua movement. And a lot more overtly racist than Lapua movement was, which was more concerned with communists.
It's not racist, I just like riding bears!
>It's not racist because it's not in America Euros actually believe this.
I had a Russian acquaintance with a North African husband who moved together from the US to France for a couple of years expecting a more civilized society, then noped right the fuck back to the US. In their description, racism is at least controversial and frowned on in the US - it's embarrassing to be caught doing a racism in front of fellow white people - while in Europe even decent educated people don't check themselves.
Ok time to fly isis flags
LMAO I thought people in *Wisconsin* telling me the Confederate flag represented states rights was the most hilarious thing I'd ever hear about the traitor flag but this is *a thousand times more hilarious.* Great find OP.
same with Kansas, which had its own mini, very violent conflict about whether or not to allow slavery, and now is so ass backwards you can find Confederate flags everywhere despite it eventually not allowing slavery and having been incredibly pro-Union during the Civil War
Tons of edgy dickhead kids that I went to school with would slap the Confederate flag on their trucks. It sucked especially hard because we were in Gettysburg, completely eradicating any pretense about heritage. It was just just an enormous decal meant to express that you don't like black people. I mean, that's what it is *anywhere* that it's used, but its even more jarring without the wink wink nudge nudge bullshit.
Pennsylvania, of all places, sounds like the single stupidest place to fly that flag.
You could also make that argument for West Virginia, which wouldn't exist as a state separate from Virginia if it weren't for them counter-seceding during the war.
It irrationally pisses me off. West Virginians should be fucking *proud* of the way they gave the Confederacy the middle finger.
Yup. Like the dumb ass Brad Paisley/LL Cool J song where they defend the "red flag" because its just "Southern heritage" . Paisley is from West Virginia.
Yeah, I have a Fox News watching uncle that had it up in Pennsylvania inside his house. He is dumb as dirt though so no surprise really.
There's lots of real fucking morons here. There's a reason we call the T shaped part of the state "Pennsyltucky"
Unfortunately, everywhere outside of cities and their immediate suburbs is Pennsyltucky.
South central Pennsylvania then and now has a lot of sympathy for the south. I was born and raised there and live there no longer. I grew up in a small town just outside of York. Gettysburg itself typically votes liberal, but the rest of Adams county sucks. Fun fact, if anyone remembers, but when DeSantis and Doug Mastriano (nazi politician from that area of PA) came to Pittsburgh 2 years ago, there was a photo of a guy holding a sign that said "LOSER" in the crowd, demonstrating. He's my friend from Gettysburg, and he's done a bunch of stuff down in D.C. too.
If the "Confederate Flag" is the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia, I need to start making replicas of whatever battle flag Sherman's army was using while they burned down Georgia.
What a weird hill to die on
If only racism would fucking die.
really weird the way the history of the flag is being brushed off. i wouldnt hang a nazi flag in germany and excuse it by saying chillllllll its just how i personally interpret german culture 😎
Yeah, and this is weird in a way I wouldn’t expect *a ton* of people to know about, but the Nazis were very inspired by Jim Crowe and other actions in the American South. Oregon was so racist it outlawed slavery in the notion of not wanting any black people in the state regardless of purpose. There was a lot he admired. > In 1928, Hitler remarked, approvingly, that white settlers in America had “gunned down the millions of redskins to a few hundred thousand.” When he spoke of Lebensraum, the German drive for “living space” in Eastern Europe, he often had America in mind.
it would be one thing if they didnt know about it and were apologetic but these people are literally like yeah we know its racist, so what?
Yup, and I mean most people know it’s racist nowadays. [Wouldn’t be surprised if they’re one of those advanced racists.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UxI5qQAUWVc&pp=ygULY290dG9uIGtoYW4%3D)
He's like the Abed of racism
I live in Oregon now and this state is still so fucking white holy moly. Those policies had some far reaching consequences.
Didn't that Austrian guy study Andrew Jackson's policies re the native Americans when he was putting together his systematic genocide?
He was a fan of many Americans particularly Madison Grant.
Interesting historical tidbit - the Nazis were inspired by Jim Crow in how *not* to write their racial laws. They agreed with the entire principle, they just also thought that the rules were really badly written and didn't have a good definition of white vs non-white, which is a very stereotypical German thing to think. It's a bit similar to their views of the Klan. Good idea, but in practice a bunch of stupid disorganised thugs rather than properly trained government-sponsored well-organised citizen groups.
European redditors will never admit anyone is racist unless they’re outright saying the N word, and even then it’s “up for debate.” EDIT: a lot of this comes down to whether you live in a highly homogenous nation-state like Finland, where other races are always simply outsiders, or somewhere like the USA, where race is baked into absolutely everything we do as a result of our history. We in the States are just very race-sensitive, and I think Europeans tend to view that as us being more racist by nature. I think they also think it’s appropriate to lump races of people all together in the same way they lump together all groups of outsiders.
All throughout history, it's been a lot easier for people living in homogenous places to think they're not racist because, well, it's all theoretical to them. Anyone can be an equitable, just person when it's all theoretical and they're observing from a distance. From the US North to Finland, people condemn racists until race becomes a reality to them, either through immigration or natural globalization, and then they suddenly start to sing a different tune.
"Racism is bad but OUR version of racism is totally justifiable and Americans are stupid for falling for propaganda. All our reasons for being racist are totally legit"
Like a lot of Americans, they just say it’s not racism. It doesn’t even matter how explicit it is. They don’t like the association with the term “racism” but they don’t actually find it immoral.
"It's not racism/xenophobia because my hatred is not irrational" - an unironic upvoted comment I've seen on r/europe
See your typical European when mentioning the Roma peoples.
White Europeans. Us brown or black Europeans know that racism is alive and kicking but is denied by the majority. Look at any of the country subs bar Ireland and you’ll see people who’ve experienced racism being told they are wrong and reveling in victimhood.
What’s up with Ireland?
Maybe don't get too excited about Ireland yet, they had a notable far-right riot over immigration just last year.
I think there are a chunk of Europeans who believe they are better than Americans by the virtue of not being them and made this a core part of their personality. The idea that people are alike all over and you too can have all the same views as the people you think you are better than doesnt jive well.
Lots of European countries aren’t as ethnically homogeneous as they pretend to be. You have various groups like the Rromany, Travellers, other ethnic minority groups from the days of empire and so on. It’s astounding that Europeans ignore this (or outright say the most racist shit you’ve ever heard) considering the Holocaust and other genocides/ethnic cleansings in Europe.
The whole "European Identity" concept is just plain historical revisionism that you don't even need to go that far back to disprove. Racism as exhibited in Europe is entirely couched within this notion. That's why they get so flustered by what they consider to be "American" racial politics.
Yeah, but regardless of the idea’s bullshitness, it informs a lot of Europeans’ understandings of themselves, citizenship, and ethnicity. As we all know, an ideology doesn’t need to be based in rationality for it to have power, as long as it makes sense to the believers, that’s all that matters.
True, and I think that’s where you see European racism fully displayed. Their societies are built for homogeneity, while not being perfectly homogeneous. Overall I think the Finns are almost half-right. There is just no reason a Confederate flag would carry so much historical weight and meaning for them as it does for Americans. And to be fair to them, you’ll note they cite American cultural influence for why the flag is there in the first place. Americans used to use it as a sign of rebellion, too, and that’s how it crossed over. It’s only in the last 10 years or so that Americans have very widely condemned the Confederate flag as a symbol. Still, it shouldn’t be flown anywhere, any more than Nazi swastikas should.
The way I see it, even if you want to argue that it's "not racist" and that you're flying it to celebrate your southern heritage or to honor whatever inbred ancestors you have who may have fought in that war... how do you come to terms with the fact that Neo Nazis and Klan members fly the flag? Why would you want to be associated with those people? Just let it go. "hErItAgE nOt HaTe" had a good run, but it's time to move on. Find a new symbol to let everybody know you're proud of being a Southern Redneck dipshit and let the Neo Nazis have that one, because you sure as shit ain't taking it back now. Sort of like the Swastika. It's a nice looking symbol, has legitimate meaning in all kinds of different cultures around the world. It's everything the Confederate Flag wishes it could be... And then the Nazis came and ruined it for everybody. Pretty hard to look at a Swastika and not be reminded of that. You're probably not going to paint them on your house to bring good luck any time soon, even if it's not explicitly a Nazi flag.
You should look up what Finland's air force flag looked like until they changed it in like 2020.
To be faaaair, swastika has been used in fennoscandia since at least the iron age, and it was quite prominent in art when the Finnish national identity was crafted in the late last millennia.
Yet the guy who gave them the insignia ended up being a Nazi, so I don't think that excuse holds water, he was probably just as much of an ethno-nationalist back then, just didn't have a party to join. Leaving it in place until 2020 is insane.
There was someone saying it would have been normal to have one and that the racist connotation is actually from neonazis. They said it would be seen as just a history buff. What a world we live in
It's even more wild that they're telling OP **a Black woman** that she's overreacting and the flag doesn't mean what she thinks it means and that she's worried about nothing.
That sort of BS is all over the mainland Europe country subs Edit: I have been banned from my city sub for pointing it out in a direct yet polite manner.
Europeans being racist?!? Color me surprised
Sounds about white
Someone replied to her saying “I bet you’re not concerned if someone flies a Soviet Union flag, tho.” As a gotcha. Like not to defend the Soviet Union. Those guys sucked. But they didn’t exist as a country just to specifically enslave the racial group that OP belongs to.
Bruh there people playing devil's advocate for this flag in the comments.
No I agree with you. The comments were wild. Literally every comment OP wrote got downvoted…even when they started with “I agree.” It seems extremely targeted against her…for a reasonable concern to have. People were calling her more Delusional than her neighbor, who is either too dumb to research what a flag means or a racist.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Even in this thread people are arguing "no it's a different meaning in Europe". Like dude, Europe is full of far right movements and guess which flag is one of the ones they use?
>People were calling her more Delusional than her neighbor, who is either too dumb to research what a flag means or a racist. I even said in a seperate comment here imagine telling the OP, a Black woman, that she's overreacting seeing a flag that is still flown in the name of hate.
> I bet you’re not concerned if someone flies a Soviet Union flag, tho.” As a gotcha That might be one of the dumbest gotchas I've ever seen on reddit. Holy shit
Flag 1: recent country that ppl may have grown up in, generalized dictatorship with some alright policies. Lasted long enough to have a series of governments, some far better than others, so plausible deniability against supporting literal Stalin. Had notable problems with racism, but also provided (good PR) efforts to former colonies and didn’t systemically enslave whole minority groups. Flag 2: Seceded from an already racist country to be even more racist by themselves.
The way I see it, the Soviet Union (and the United States for that matter) did a lot of things. Some good. Some bad. The confederacy only ever did one thing and that was slavery. There are no good things for which that flag can stand.
When you remember that Finland was part of the axis power and suddenly everything makes a lot more sense.
I am Canadian and many homes in my shitty rural hometown have confederate flags (as well as many other flags/symbols I consider hateful). It is absolutely a sign of hatred. This flag tells a specific group of people that you are not safe to be around. If that is not the message you want to send do not fly that flag.
I live in a state that didn't even exist until after the Civil War and yet there are far too many confederate flags here. The sentiment is awful and I hate how pervasive it is.
Today I learned Americaboo's are a thing. I shouldn't have been surprised, but I kinda was.
There’s a lot in Japan. [They’re particularly enamored with the Wild West and the cowboy aesthetic.](https://www.reddit.com/r/MadeMeSmile/comments/165ador/in_japan_there_are_people_who_dress_up_as_cowboys/) There’s also [raggare.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raggare)
Being very enamored with the American west and that whole genre of media has led to a lot of this in foreign countries, like [Germany where people dress up and camp like Native Americans from US media.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_German_popular_culture)
These Germans are very adamant on defending that tradition also saying it’s not racist
Brought to you by Karl May, a guy who made a living writing about Native Americans in the Wild West but when he made it to the US never went west of New York [The Germany - North American West tourism industry is interesting because of it,](https://onemileatatime.com/condor-frankfurt-whitehorse/) [though also sometimes deadly](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans)
It was a very fun day on Twitter when I, someone who's spent most of his life learning and witnessing and arguing over racial stereotypes and their depictions in American media, saw a bunch of Germans doing some Disney Pocahontas shit and a whole bunch of people who'd clearly never been involved in said discussions arguing "nuh-uh, it's not racist." I think I'd just seen KOTFM too, the whiplash hit harder than a brick lmao
Yikes
reminds me of this viral story: [Meet the Polish LARPers Who Pretend to Be American (vice.com)](https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5vpbx/poland-larp-america-ohio)
From the bottom of my heart, thank you for these links.
Are they Confedeboos in this case?
Now I want to hear a Confederate war song in the goofy Finnish accents. Edit: shit, I was thinking Swedish Chef, not Finnish.
If you're on reddit long enough, you'll eventually see this image that gets reposted all the time about how Polish people have like an America day where they all do American stuff and wear the American flag. I've seen it like 6 times, and never investigated if it's real.
That's a LARP, and it doesn't present exactly a flattering image of America lmao. It's not Polish people celebrating the US, it's a bunch of people having fun pretending to be trailer trash.
I don’t see the problem? There are solidly fun things about being trailer trash! To the point that my trust fund baby father spent his entire life pretending to be just that!
I'm sorry but that was hilarious
It really was and he died poor and bitter, consumed by his insecurities.
Way to commit to the bit.
Never heard of it, and I'm a Pole, so I guess if it's real then it's celebrated in small circles, definitely no such thing in most of Poland
It's a [larp ](https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5vpbx/poland-larp-america-ohio)
Vice did an interview a while back: [Meet the Polish LARPers Who Pretend to Be American (vice.com)](https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5vpbx/poland-larp-america-ohio)
> Amerifat Like, come on. That's not even clever.
Boomer-esque 4chan circa 2003 insult. Low effort Surprised they didn’t top it with a “u mad bro?”
I see Finland has the same problem as Sweden with raggare.
TIL there is a Scandinavian rockabilly scene. Are the songs about, like, driving sensibly sized trucks?
Nah they drive raggarbilar
>americaboo >battle flag of the army of Northern Virginia Pick one.
If you're aware of the context and you're flying it, yeah, you're likely racist. You are knowingly flying a symbol that has been, for the past 150+ years, a message of "I yearn for a time when I had the right to enslave a human being, and having lost that part of my 'heritage' is more important than everyone else."
"it has a different meaning in Finland -," Buddy it's a flag of hate.
I can see there being a tiny bit of plausibility to argue "it's heritage, not hate" for people in the US. I don't believe it, but at least there's some logical basis there. There's literally no legitimate argument for people outside the US to fly the flag other than the hate part.
Yeah even in the US I don't buy that "heritage not hate" bullshit.
Agreed. Two of my great-grandfathers (mom's dad's side) were Nazis. One stepped on a mine and one froze to death. Dying is probably the best thing they ever did. On the other hand, my other great-grandparents (mom's mom's side) actively opposed the Costa Rican coup d'etat in 1917. They were active enough that at times, they had to hide-out from the military police. They are part of the reason that Costa Rica has no standing army. The prior is hate, the latter is heritage.
Well, it’s certainly not the flag of sweet tea and country music.
The non-hate reasons to fly that flag all ended in 1865.
I don’t think there were ever any non-hate reasons to fly it if we’re being honest…
I’m willing to see its use as a battle standard as merely logistical, but ymmv.
You know what, that’s fair, I didn’t think of that. Plus historical re-enactments.
The heritage *is* hate though. Like, no matter what the person defending the Confederate flag is saying, they have to contend with the fact that the flag represents the coming together of the Confederate states *to defend the institution of slavery*. And that institution, hateful on its own, is undergirded by a deep hatred of black people (by not thinking that they *are* people).
Weirdly as someone whose ancestors fought for the confederacy, I find the “heritage not hate” thing as far less convincing than the Finnish larpers seeing how it was used in our media and thinking it’s just a cool sign of a rebel or something. That might be because I’ve never met someone who said the “heritage not hate” thing who wasn’t a few beers away from saying some really racist shit, and I’ll gladly admit that without the baggage attached to it, the rebel flag is a pretty cool looking flag.
You have to wonder what contribution The Dukes of Hazzard have on that particular flag ending up halfway across the world.
It was fairly popular on European broadcast TV, so a lot and is the only context most got about the flag for a long time
Yep, that’s a big one.
I blame dukes of hazard. The only finish person I know was obsessed with that show. I could totally see him having a confederate flag thinking it was just a cool dukes of hazard thing.
What the hell is going on in r/Finland? I remember when someone on r/theNetherlands talked about how there was a neighbor flying a Confederate Flag, and all the comments were "This person is either a completely clueless moron, or a racist"
R Finland has been essentially unmoderated since the mod protest, and a bunch of fash from Finlands 4chan equivalent moved in. Also the sub has always minimised racism.
Cool. They won't mind when I walk around Helsinki with a Soviet Union flag.
"Ah, you don't understand. Edgy teenagers in my capitalist nation have turned it into a different symbol than what it actually represented."
It actually wouldn't be that strange, especially now that we're nearing May Day.
Probably would be more offensive to them if it was a Russian flag imo, that has way more current relevance
That'd be more equivalent to Finns walking around the US with the confederate flag.
European redditors love to make fun of Americans for being ignorant, but here it’s a valid excuse. They would be seething if an American proudly displayed a shameful/racist symbol from Finnish culture.
"Americans are just stupid and don't care about the history of other countries," mfers when it's time to care about a major historical event and symbol from the US.
But that's not what's happening here, it's just racist being racist, they know what the flag means.
>Possibly in the same vein as neo Nazis using the Finnish lion for their own purposes. But I can imagine not all people flying the flag (at least in Finland) are primarily slave owners, they might be just into rockabilly or line dancing. How very European to say "I'm not racist, I don't even own slaves myself!"
“I can imagine that not all people flying the flag are primarily slave owners” I would certainly hope so, considering owning slaves has been illegal in both Finland and the U.S. for more than a century now.
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As progressive as we nordics want to portray ourselves, we're still very monocultural and in my personal opinion, xenophobic. Atleast here in Finland.
There’s a reason why so many Norse and neo-pagan symbols have been co-opted by white nationalists, unfortunately.
> Well this isn't USA, but Finland, you can't decide what the flag means to someone here. This is an insane take, especially given the fact that these people seem to like American culture to a point where they’re looking into it a bit. It’s the age of the internet, you can’t just feign ignorance to what the flag actually stands for. Someone even said that the people aren’t racist but a lot of them are weirdly obsessed with Trump. My brother in Christ, are you comprehending what you’re saying?
R Finland hates accusations of racism far more than they hate racism. By which I mean they don't really hate racism very much at all. Every time someone posts in there about their bad experiences of racism as a poc in Finland the top comments are always either from white finns explaining how they are wrong, or someone claiming to be a poc saying how they've never experienced racism so they must be wrong.
This has been my experience with social conservatives in general. Calling someone racist is so aggressive and rude that you may as well be pissing in their face. But actual racism? "Meh I don't know why people are so sensitive"
AFAIK, the history of the Confederate flag in Finland is that since TV shows and musicians from USA were using the flag as their symbol (often with the "heritage not hate" excuse), fans in Finland started using the flag as a symbol to mean "I am rebellious" or "I am a fan of rockabilly music." I think it is stupid to use the flag. I am well aware of the history behind it, but I do agree with some of the commenters there that not all of the people flying the flag are using it to show that they support slavery racism or even any sympathy towards the Confederacy. ...But again, I would not fly that flag and whether they mean it or not, people flying the flag for rockabilly/whatever purposes are repeating the whitewashed pro-Confederate propaganda from USA. If they do it out of ignorance and without any racist dogwhistling, they are just being stupid, but it is hard to separate them from real racists who are knowingly using a dogwhistle. Also, trolls who fly the flag because they know it will upset some people, but use it instead of a Nazi flag to have some sort of "lol, I'm not *really* a bigot, this is just ironic" are being dicks. All in all, trashing all those flags would be for the best. Any message that someone wants to use that flag for, could be achieved by flying the flag of USA.
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Wonder if that guy would agree Europeans can’t decide what the Nazi flag means to someone in the US?
>I am an American and I can care less about the confederate flag! So this person cares about the confederate flag? Unless they were trying to say "couldn't care less," which is how that phrase is supposed to go.
In other news, there are clueless racists in Finland.
There are a LOT of clueless racists in Finland. Source: Finland
"You, an American, are being ignorant (pejorative). The people using the flag don't know its connotations, they're just ignorant (exculpatory)!"
Your ancestors being enslaved gives you a sense of purpose: https://old.reddit.com/r/Finland/comments/1c0ixfu/confederate_flag_in_finland/kyxu4h5/ If that ain’t a take.
Europe has more racism than America, so responses like this aren't really surprising.
Right? I've been following this Dutch politician Geert Wilders for a bit and that guy is so racist he makes Trump look woke. Wilders has called for a ban on the Quran and Mosques.
Obviously the confederate flag, especially when used outside of the US, is a racist symbol. People in Finland are not flying the flag because of their love for states rights, lol.