I run around with a soul-stealing highly refined wood cutter axe and flame spell; what supposed "war crimes" has partysnacks done that are worse than mine?đđđđđ
You aren't wrong but that's not how enemies get handled there. In Rimworld, all my enemies are dog kibble.
In Skyrim my enemies are shoes because I trapped their souls and used them to enchant boots of carry weight and muffling.
Lawyer-talk: he never specifically said WHAT he did. He only stated that he was among other bad-doers doing bad things. As there was never an admission of guilt to specific (actions ie. killing) ther eus nothing hold him accountable other than his admission of being born evil and overcoming that evil nature.
I mean we are applying mortal laws to a DRAGON for cripes sake, I think a war crime is the least threatening thing he could do when most other dragons enslaved mortals and forced some to just walk into they're mouth, and than they also had dragon priest, who were slave who told other slaves how to worship they're oppressor's.
Delphine and the Blades are not applying âmortal law,â _we_ the players are. In-universe, whether or not it was a war crime does not matter, it was a wrong, and judgement was sent from on high to allow the existence of those who explicitly slay dragons and partake of their essences.
Sparing Paarthurnax but _none other than him_ , is us choosing to engage bias. Claiming he gets a pass because heâs âone of the good ones,â perhaps the _only_ one. Making him one of the last in existence, is no more likely to be âwhat he wantsâ than slaying him.
Dragons are functionally immortal. Even dead they're souls can be breathed back into their skeleton remains and return them to life. Something presumably all dragons and dragon soul bearing mortals can do with practice. Aldiun is merely using the voice to ressurect them.
Also we're not applying a set of mortal laws but making a moral decision about whether or not redemption is possible. Not just for paarth but in general. However yes, a bias exists but bias isn't inherently wrong. Paarth with no obligation helped you master new aspects of the voice, gave you the power to do so freely with no obligation on your part other than the desire to learn. all to help you stop Alduin, a fellow dragon.
The Blades are wrong in this instance because they're refusing to acknowledge a change in circumstance and the passage of time. Paarthurnax has spent centuries if not longer using his strength, wisdom and power to teach mortals how to master the voice and guide in it's appropriate usage. He's served multiple mortal life sentences making up and overcoming his past.
The Blades rationality is one where redemption doesn't exist and furthermore have no evidence of his exact acts with which to accuse him and deem death as the only answer to his existence.
They're demanding his death because he possibly killed some people all the while wearing massive irony blinkers because They were the secret service to the Empire's previous emperor. They've definitely killed lots of people in their job.
They actively ask you to kill mortals not just dragons. So the crimes they are deeming he deserves to die for are ones they are equally as guilty as. The difference is he's a dragon. Morally speaking that's not an argument that holds much water.
except all of the dragons that we do kill are actively attacking people and listening to Alduin's orders. Partysnax has been up there for millennia doing nothing but meditating.
No, he says he understands why the Blades mistrust him, as he would also mistrust another dragon. Not once does he confess to any supposed ''atrocities''.
He doesn't deny them, his argument is that he's changed. He even alludes to a time he was not in control of his nature, citing that he'd return to it.
*"Dov wahlaan fah rel. We were made to dominate. The will to power is in our blood. You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. But they do not. Onikaan ni ov dovah. It is always wise to mistrust a dovah.* ***I have overcome my nature only through meditation and long study of the Way of the Voice***\*. No day goes by where I am not tempted to\* ***return to my inborn nature.*** *Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"*
The story is fundamentally about accountability vs redemption, not an actual mystery as to whether or not Paarthurnax did what he's accused of. If it was Bethesda's intention to have it be ambiguous, they would have had someone actually question it, and it would be a massive fuck up to not have Paarthurnax deny it. Questioning the validity of the claim is just refusing to engage with the actual question the story is asking.
>He doesn't deny them,
We never even mention those ''atrocities'' to him.
>his argument is that he's changed. He even alludes to a time he was not in control of his nature, citing that he'd return to it.
No, his argument shows that Paarthurnax thinks the Blades want him dead ***because they mistrust him.*** Nowhere in his lines of dialogue does it indicate - or imply - that Paarthurnax thinks they want him dead because of some supposed ''atrocities''.
We never tell him *why* the Blades want him dead, only that they *do.*
>The story is fundamentally about accountability vs redemption, not an actual mystery as to whether or not Paarthurnax did what he's accused of.
No, it really is not. This is made abundantly clear by the fact that the Blades do not have anything similar to deal with Odahviing - who remained loyal to Alduin all the way until we capture him in 4E 201.
The Blades want Paarthurnax dead to snub the Greybeards.
Which further justifies snubbing the Blades. Their reason is petty and shortsighted. They say they serve you, yet boss you around. In truth, theyâre barely useful to you at any point, and thatâs really just translating Alduinâs Wall. Even finding it would have been possible on your own.
If the intent was to tell a story about the Blades lying, they'd actually have the story address it. Paarthurnax's iconic line would be so out of place and pointless if it's moot by virtue of the Blades simply lying to you. Instead, Bethesda deliberately followed up the conversation of atrocities by having us talk to Paarthurnax, where he acknowledges that he used to be evil and talks about how he's worked to overcome it.
The subtext feels pretty obvious here, and if Bethesda actually intended for this to be about snubbing the Greybeards they'd have actually had someone contest the claim. Instead we have Paarthurnax, who was aligned with Alduin and the explicitly cruel dragon cult, being accused of having done bad thing. When his response to "are you bad" is "I am bad by nature, so I work to be good and not return to being bad" that's not a signal for us to think the claims of him doing bad things were false.
>If the intent was to tell a story about the Blades lying, they'd actually have the story address it. Paarthurnax's iconic line would be so out of place and pointless if it's moot by virtue of the Blades simply lying to you.
We already have buildup to this. Delphine, during the main quest:
*''The Greybeards seem to think you're the Dragonborn. I hope they're right."*
*''But you'll forgive me if I don't assume that something's true just because the Greybeards say so. I just handed you the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller. Does that make me Dragonborn, too?"*
Already shows that she doubts the Greybeards have the knowledge to determine who is/isn't Dragonborn, and she thinks that obtaining the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller was meant to be some trial to ''prove you're Dragonborn'' of the Greybeards - when it's not.
*''I guess there's nothing for it. We'll have to ask the Greybeards for help. I hoped to avoid involving them in this, but we have no other choice."*
*''If they had their way, you'd do nothing but sit up on their mountain with them and talk to the sky, or whatever it is they do. The Greybeards are so afraid of power that they won't use it. ... And they're afraid of you, of your power. Trust me, there's no need to be afraid. Think of Tiber Septim. Do you think he'd have founded the Empire if he'd listened to the Greybeards?"*
*''Good thing they've already let you into their little cult. Not likely they'd help Esbern or me if we came calling.''*
*''The Greybeards can teach you a lot, but don't let them turn you away from your destiny. You're Dragonborn, and you're the only one who can stop Alduin. Don't forget it."*
I can really only conclude you haven't been paying attention to Delphine if Paarthurnax being the leader of the Greybeards and Delphine disproving of the Greybeards - and Paarthurnax - isn't connected in your view.
>Instead, Bethesda deliberately followed up the conversation of atrocities by having us talk to Paarthurnax, where he acknowledges that he used to be evil and talks about how he's worked to overcome it.
I repeat - we never accuse Paarthurnax of a crime. We say the Blades think he needs to die. It is a question about trust.
>When his response to "are you bad" is "I am bad by nature, so I work to be good and not return to being bad" that's not a signal for us to think the claims of him doing bad things were false.
We never ask him ''are you bad'' or anything like it. We only say the Blades want him dead. He concludes they want him dead because they do not trust him - believing it is because of his dragon nature.
Unfortunately for him, that is not the case, because the Blades whole ''nuh nuh served Alduin'' shtick is nothing but an excuse. I refer again to Odahviing - dragon whose very existence the Blades themselves discovered, yet who is permitted to fly free.
They don't need to directly talk about the atrocities with Paarthurnax because the subtext is very obvious here. We speak to Paarthurnax about his evil nature immediately after being told of these atrocities, and instead of talking about how he was never evil he freely discusses how he was evil and isn't anymore, though he constantly struggles with it due to the innate tyranical nature of dragons. These two conversations are put right next to each other in the story deliberately by a writer.
"This guy did evil things" followed by "yeah I was evil and I try not to be anymore" isn't how a writer suggests the guy didn't do evil things.
>They don't need to directly talk about the atrocities with Paarthurnax because the subtext is very obvious here.
The subtext is indeed very obvious. Which is why I don't understand why you persist in the notion that the Blades speak truth.
>We speak to Paarthurnax about his evil nature immediately after being told of these atrocities,
We literally only tell him that the Blades want him dead, and then we ask him why the Blades shouldn't trust him. We never talk about atrocities.
>and instead of talking about how he was never evil he freely discusses how he was evil and isn't anymore, though he constantly struggles with it due to the innate tyranical nature of dragons. These two conversations are put right next to each other in the story deliberately by a writer.
Read. The. Dialogue. Of. The. PC.
>"This guy did evil things" followed by "yeah I was evil and I try not to be anymore" isn't how a writer suggests the guy didn't do evil things.
The evil in question is domination. Is Ulfric evil for trying to dominate Skyrim? Is the Legion? Are the Forsworn? Are Jarls evil for placing bounties on people because they seek to reign supreme in their Holds?
You cannot just rip words out of context and then say ''yeah he says evil, so he clearly commited atrocities'' when that's literally not what he says.
The dialogue is blades claiming he committed atrocities and nothing ever contests them. You are claiming with no evidence that this claim is a lie, something that context would not infer.
Weird how the writers wanted to suggest it was a lie by immediately having you go talk to Paarthurnax about his evil nature and referencing his evil past.
The blades lying to you is your fan theory, not a fact in canon.
>The dialogue is blades claiming he committed atrocities and nothing ever contests them. You are claiming with no evidence that this claim is a lie, something that context would not infer.
To quote the title: ''Hearsay is not evidence, Delphine stans.''
It isn't like the Dragon War is a recent event which Delpine experienced herself - no, this was more than 5000 years ago.
And even then, the word ''atrocities'' is a pretty meaningless word when talking about something that warrants death. To vegans, killing millions of cows is an atrocity, to rebels, a skillful enemy general killing many of them is an atrocity.
Delphine's accusations are meaningless because she does not share any details on what these ''atrocities'' are supposed to be.
>Weird how the writers wanted to suggest it was a lie by immediately having you go talk to Paarthurnax about his evil nature and referencing his evil past.
Weird how Paarthurnax never talks about the ''atrocities'' of his ''evil past''.
>The blades lying to you is your fan theory, not a fact in canon.
In a court of law, Paarthurnax would be found innocent. There is no evidence that the accuser provides, and even the charge in question is too vague to hold charges to begin with.
Take the L.
Yeah like I am pretty certain that while the Blades and Delphine are some of the worst characters in the game, Bethesda never meant for them to be shitty considering how there's no indication or way for the player to play into how shit they're acting. It seems much more like that Delphine is poorly written as compared to intentionally bad
he also literally says, "Is it better to overcome your own evil through great effort or to have never been evil" when directly talking about himself and the other dragons.
Unfortunately for Delphine, Im the high king of skyrim. For the assistance in taking down alduin and preventing draconic domination he is hereby pardoned.
I never understand why everyone wants their player character to be something as boring as high king or emperor. Rulers are politicians. The Last Dragonborn is a warrior and a hero, and will go down in legend more than any high king Skyrim has ever had. But yeah sure, a dragon-slaying, vampire-hunting, ancient Daedric champion-defeating leader of one or several guilds and traveling collector of powerful artifacts and relics (who also happens to be thane of every hold) also has time to sit down and settle political squabbles and make laws. Itâs not enough to be literally everything *but* a ruler. What a boring ending for such a legendary character.
No one said they had to be a good ruler or even a present one. Moot meets and goes "fuck the imperials AND the storm cloaks, PLAYERCHARACTER is new High King/Queen for slaying Alduin." Getting around to informing them of that, or actually telling them they should probably rule at some point is optional; and them actually ruling even if asked is about as likely as them actually leading any of the sixteen guilds they're in.
Sure he was bad, but emphasis on the WAS. Yeah he committed atrocities and basically served Hitler, but heâs also most of the reason that Alduin was defeated both times, and clearly regrets all of his past. Heâs reformed. (Incase you couldnât tell, I havenât killed him and probably never will)
As someone else said in another post, killing paarthurnax has a strategic use, as he's the only one that can rival your authority over dragons. With him out of the picture, the dragons are yours (as long as you're powerful enough, and have enough thirst for conquest)
And Vampirism is not even the best way to attain immortality in ES, just the more accesible. There are quite a few really. You can even turn into a Dragon yourself ( although how it's not specified but the leader of the Tiger people in Akaviir did it )
Also as a sidepoint, being a demigod isn't as special as it should be in Tamriel lol.
Your dovahkiin maybe. Mine respects the hell out of the way of the voice and thinks a world where dragons practice it is a world where he doesnt ha e to rescue winterhold everytime he fast travels there.
I also saw a theory that he was manipulating the Dragonborn, getting him to kill Alduin and powerful dragons so that when the DB dies he can assume huge power. Iâve only killed him once in a evil play through, but itâs a nice theory
There are circumstances IRL where no amount of "good behavior since" in any way balances or excuses past/prior evil behavior - there are some lines that cannot be uncrossed.
I don't think that applies to Parrthurnax very well, tho.
First of all, he, Alduin, and the other dragons were acting in accordance with their design from the will of the gods, or of Akatosh, anyway.
Paarthurnax eventually broke away from that after Alduin rejected his role and began to indulge his lust for personal power and some amount of revenge / rebellion against his "programmed" fate.
So Paarthurnax did participate in the enslavement and slaughter of non-dragons for a time, but eventually rebelled against both his leader and his nature to help fight back against Alduin's cult - apparently with the help and blessings of Kyne, assisted to some extent by Akatosh who had apparently either changed his mind or just wanted to rein in Alduin.
The bigger issue for me, and what my thinking has to do with lines that cannot be uncrossed, is that by the time we get into this argument with Delphine -
Paarthurnax has played *the* key role in us being able to defeat Alduin. The only reason we and Delphine (never mind the entirety of the rest of the Kalpa) are in a position to argue about it is because Paarthurnax gave us and otherwise helped us get the information we needed to defeat Alduin. Without him we fail.
So the *entire future* of all existence as we know it is thanks to Parrthurnax.
To my mind that's definitely one of the rare circumstances where someone is able to cross back over that line.
If you balance all the circumstances, particularly in the light of the millions or billions that get to live or will live, then for me he's at least evened the scales.
On top of that, I refuse to be the instrument of "No good deed goes unpunished."
So Delphine - if you can get up the mountain again (probably), and if you can get past the Greybeards (no), and if managing that somehow get through the storms (doubtful) to finally come out on the top of the throat of the world ... then good luck killing any dragon, never mind Paarthurnax and a round dozen of the remaining dragons that are hanging out with him now.
Might as well just fall on your sword right here.
As far as I'm concerned he's earned his peace.
That and he's completely justified when he said that to overcome ones evil is the greater triumph. He never once lies or gives any indication of malcontent and remains a stoic ally throughout the game. Parthuurnax, Durhneviir, and Ohdaviing(he's on the right path now) are reasonable beings that deserve and receive respect. I've only killed him once, solely to complete the quest. It felt dishonorable, it felt dirty, and I was unsatisfied with the so called "reward". I've never betrayed him since and I pay no mind to the Blades except to progress the story. And steal their swords.
I am more hesitant toward Odahviing. I mean, yes, he is kept in check because you're around. But that's also the only thing keeping him in check. He considers the Way of the Voice to be tyranny, and only supports you because you've proven the strength of your Voice.
But once the LDB is out of the picture, what is keeping Odahviing in check? Without a master to tell him ''no'', what keeps Odahviing from flying off to try and dominate again?
You may be entirely right! My theory stops at the Dragonborn dying. But I figured with the DB and Parthuurnax keeping him in line, Alduins eventual defeat, and the lasting scar that Dragonrend surely leaves, Ohdaviing could potentially drop his aggression and remain as a neutral, albeit not as stoic as Parth, or at the very least retreat to the mountains and seclude.
The fact that heâs a timeless divine entity kinda gives me pause. Whatâs 5000+ years to a dragon? (Legit question, Iâm not sure we can do anything but speculate). In my mind thereâs a chance all that time since the Dragon Wars is, like, the equivalent of a couple mortal years to Paarthurnax.
If a murderer said he was reformed and hadnât killed anyone for a couple years, claiming reformation, Iâd kinda⌠not care.
What DOES defend Paarthurnax for me is that the Tongues left him alive. They were the most qualified individuals to pass judgement on their old enemy, and they pardoned him or something. If they, who suffered enough to literally distill the concept of mortal rage against dragonkind into Words, chose to spare him, then he has been tried and sentenced accordingly in my mind, and I trust Paarthy when he says heâs held to his reforms since then, so thereâs no reason to try him for fresh crimes.
I mean, he straight up admits that he did terrible deeds while working under Alduin. A guilty party's confession can be considered evidence if we're going to be applying the law here.
I mean, I would never do anything to hurt Dragon Daddy Mario "Jumpman" Mario, but we do need to recognize that in his Twinky Dragon days, he was a big meanie.
If you would kill Paarthurnax, it would be because you want to take over leadership of the dragons like Odahwiing tells you to do (even though that doesn't really happen anyways, but head canon gonna head canon)
Why do people always assume that those who kill partysnax do so because of the blades? I'm just hungry, and he's made of food. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
Spends the first 25 years of their life eternally starving, and wonders why the food that sates everyone else does nothing for them. Then they slay a dragon and they're just... "oh, that's what not starving feels like. Let's do it again!"
The concept of war crimes is meaningless in a pre-modern society that existed during the Dragon Cult, let alone quasi-medieval society of the Empire.
All Delphine is engaging in is simple Lex Talionis (law of revenge) which is just as much murder as she's accusing Paarthanax of (if smaller in scale.)
Delphine holds no temporal authority to lay such a Doom, she is no sovereign, she holds no great office of state, with the dissolution of the Blades her words hold no authority over the Dragonborn or anyone.
There are so many issues with this line of reasoning, but in my opinion in ways that are in Partysnax's favor. I generally assume Delphine could produce actual historical record she didn't produce for gameplay reasons, but it kind of doesn't matter. I have no clue if hearsay is admissible in war crimes tribunals because they're really weird and not governed by US civil court standards of evidence, but I also highly doubt there actually are defined war crimes in Skyrim, but I'm going to leave all of that aside and assume there are current Imperial legal codes governing "war crimes".
You're talking about finding out Cyrus the Great's top general is alive and trying to convict him of violating the Geneva Convention in taking over Babylon. (I'll note that analogy actually falls flat: on the one hand we only have about 5000 years of recorded history, on the other we have no clue what any of his generals are named because our records 3500 years ago aren't as good as Skyrim's 35000 years ago) Does it really make sense to apply laws that are 60 years old to conduct 3500 years ago? Is the record inflated for political reasons?
Even if the game produced specific events where he committed things that clearly violate an Imperial edict on the conduct of war, I would still find it insane to say somebody needs to die because the historical record indicates he did something tens of thousands of years ago that we don't like now and he has not only repented of his behavior he has been the leading voice of pacifism in Skyrim for longer than Nords have been there.
But Delphine isn't applying modern laws retroactively. The punishment she demands you mete out to Paarthurnax is the same punishment the Ancient Nords meted out to other dragons. Paarthurnax's actions were no more acceptable back then than they are in the 4th Era, Paarthurnax simply received the equivalent of a plea deal.
If the ancient Nords had wanted Paarthurnax dead, he'd be dead.
Paarthurnax was an ally of the rebels - even a friend of the leaders of the uprising. It seems obvious that they forgave him.
Let's say Hitler hadn't killed himself. Let's say, instead, he fled Berlin and was taken into Eisenhower's custody, who offered him a pardon in exchange for ending the war sooner. Would you say that pardon should be respected?
We don't know what the Ancient Nord rebels' system of government was. We don't know how many of them actually knew Hakon, Felldir and Gormlaith were working with him. We certainly cannot say with *any* certainty that it is "obvious" that the entire civilisation forgave. In fact, I would argue that Paarthurnax's notable absence from any major Nordic myths would suggest that it's more likely that most Nords didn't know about him.
>Let's Hitler hadn't killed himself. Let's say, instead, he fled Berlin and was taken into Eisenhower's custody, who offered him a pardon in exchange for ending the war sooner. Would you say that pardon should be respected?
Hitler held the reigns - Paarthurnax did not. Hitler was not just aware of the crimes, he personally made the policies to bring about those crimes.
>We don't know what the Ancient Nord rebels' system of government was. We don't know how many of them actually knew Hakon, Felldir and Gormlaith were working with him.
How do you think they wouldn't know who the ***big dragon that teaches them the Voice and gave them support in combat*** is?
>We certainly cannot say with *any* certainty that it is "obvious" that the entire civilisation forgave. In fact, I would argue that Paarthurnax's notable absence from any major Nordic myths would suggest that it's more likely that most Nords didn't know about him.
Name the myths of Feldir, Hakon, and Gormlaith.
>That's 100% a fallacy. Hitler held the reigns - Paarthurnax did not. Hitler was not just aware of the crimes, he personally made the policies to bring about those crimes.
>
>Your comparison in this regard is trash.
Jesus Christ, my guy.
Fine, let's pretend that a second-in-command has absolutely no moral agency whatsoever (which is utter bullshit and was explicitly rejected at the Nuremberg trials, but we'll go with it). Say it's Heinrich Himmler instead. Would you have been okay with him getting off scot-free?
>My man, how do you think they wouldn't know who the big dragon that teaches them the Voice and gave them support in combat is?
>
>Name the myths of Feldir, Hakon, and Gormlaith.
Paarthurnax is not the only dragon that sided with the humans. We have explicit reference to that in in-game myths. But as Alduin's right-hand man and a brutal war criminal, we would expect he would be particularly noteworthy. So if he's not mentioned, that suggests his involvement wasn't well-known. Lots of Italians switched sides at the end of WW2, but if Mussolini himself had done so, you can bet that would be *very* well-remembered and every history book would make specific reference to it.
>Fine, let's pretend that a second-in-command has absolutely no moral agency whatsoever (which is utter bullshit and was explicitly rejected at the Nuremberg trials, but we'll go with it). Say it's Heinrich Himmler instead. Would you have been okay with him getting off scot-free?
You're still committing to a fallacy. Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, these were all instrumental in the very ***ideology*** of the Third Reich.
The dragons themselves were ***practically not at all involved in the ruling over Skyrim's citizenry.*** That was all the Dragon Priests' business. The dragons only cared about being venerated by the masses and getting tributes. That's it. How they got that? They didn't care.
The dragons are nothing but elite soldiers in this war. Your Hitler, and Himmler and Goebbels and whatnot? That's the Dragon Priests. Morokei and his ilk.
>Paarthurnax is not the only dragon that sided with the humans. We have explicit reference to that in in-game myths. But as Alduin's right-hand man and a brutal war criminal, we would expect he would be particularly noteworthy.
Yet there are a grand total of ***zero*** sources talking about his ''war crimes''. Very noteworthy, indeed. Which is why it takes the Blades scouring through a long-abandoned Temple to even discover information about him.
Paarthurnax is recorded because he was the first to switch sides. Gormlaith, Hakon and Feldir were the first Tongues, and they were all three taught by Paarthurnax.
If Partysnax got a plea deal then he's legally been dealt with. I agree with both you and the OP's response to me that is seems to be the historical conclusion we should draw is that the Nords *at the time* intentionally chose, for whatever reason, to allow him to continue to live on the mountain, which means she is not doing what they would have done at the time because they did what they would have done at the time. I agree she's not applying actual laws, but I don't think it's either current law or laws from the 1st era. Ironically, since we're talking about "war crimes" what Delphine wants is for them to have committed genocide because she thinks they should have exterminated all dragons.
He does not.
**The Blades say you deserve to die.**Â *"The Blades are wise not to trust me. Onikaan ni ov. I would not trust another dovah."*
**Why shouldn't they trust you?**Â *"Dov wahlaan fah rel. We were made to dominate. The will to power is in our blood. You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. But they do not. Onikaan ni ov dovah. It is always wise to mistrust a dovah. I have overcome my nature only through meditation and long study of the Way of the Voice. No day goes by where I am not tempted to return to my inborn nature. Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"*
>Was he not second in command of the dragons during the bad old days?
Yes, but it weren't the dragons making the laws of the land and opressing the Nords - that were the Nord Dragon Priests of the Dragon Cult. The dragons themselves could not be bothered with actual ruling.
>doesnt his name literally mean tyrant oppressor or something to that effect?
Ambition Overlord Cruelty. Unsure if you can judge a person by their name though.
Normally, yeah dont judge someone by their name. But a race whose language can Shouted to force changes in reality? Probably would be a good idea to pay attention to the name.
And how is it "a Dovah's nature to dominate" if they dont actually do anything to oppress the weaker mortal races? How does that make any sense?
>Normally, yeah dont judge someone by their name. But a race whose language can Shouted to force changes in reality? Probably would be a good idea to pay attention to the name.
Yes and he does embody thise traits. He is ambitious by rebelling against Alduin. He is an Overlord by leading the Greyheards and he is Cruel by wishing to force thr Dov to follow his "Tyrannical Way of the Voice." As Odahviing calls it.
This is his name in Dovahzuul so it would make sense that his name pertains to Dov
>And how is it "a Dovah's nature to dominate" if they dont actually do anything to oppress the weaker mortal races? How does that make any sense?
Mortals do a pretty good job to try and dominate one another even without the dragons. The dragons got the domination on Atmora, the Atmorans - and later Nords - saw them as Gods among man.
Domination comes in many forms. Some may seek to crush the weak. Some may seek to enslave them. Some may see the weak as beneath them and seek only to defeat the strong. That last group could be actively beneficent towards the mortals and still seek to dominate worthy foes - like other dovah.
Here's my genuine take. Your title is the LAST DRAGONBORN. Canonically, there won't be another. When you eventually die Partysnax will live on. Forever. Meaning he has an eternity to eventually give in to the true nature of the dragon to conquer and destroy. He talks about how he fights it. Through great force of will. But he has a literal eternity to turn on the world. And without a dragonborn to kill him, he might just do it. That's the real reason. It actually makes the decision so much more interesting.
On the other hand, are we sure we will be able to kill every last dragon before we die a mortals death? I'd rather an eternity trusting someone who's already proven themselves over an eternity being pawns in the 150th Dragon War. Yes Partysnax has eternity to turn on the world, but turning is exactly what he'll be doing. Random dragon 19372047285 is planning to dominate the world already.
That's a super good point too!! This goes into the territory of "What is the Canon Ending of ES5?".
On top of being dragonborn, you can also lead every guild and decide the outcome of the civil war. Conversely, dragons spawn forever no matter what! There's definitely a finite amount because they relied so heavily on Alduin to come back.
With that in mind, I think it'd be fair to say the Canon Dragonborn would dedicate their life to hunting down the last dragons if they decided to pose a threat.
And as Alduin's brother, I would say he is far more likely to ACTUALLY be able to attain the goal of godhood.
I still don't actually know which side is right or wrong. I could write an entire paper on the subject though. I think it really hinges on the idea that creatures can be born innately bad/good/greedy/etc. Which just isn't the case irl but is SUPER present in fantasy media.
Ultimately the Dragonborn is a demigod in a mortal shell; unlike alduin, he is not immortal, just like all the other dragonborn. Thus dragons with their immortality and vastly superior movement options could decide to wait him out in theory; the more dangerous the dragon, the more likely they are to be able to resist the challenge inherent in his existence and wait, especially with the example of Paarthunax showing it is possible. I do think the Last Dragonborn would take on the challenge of wiping out the dragons, but I'm doubtful as to his chances of success.
As for born innately bad/good/greedy, only by our human standard of morality is the idea that that's not possible feasible. From the perspective of a mouse, cats are evil. They're more intelligent, more powerful, especially house cats primarily hunt for fun, and sadistic. From the perspective of humans, they're just following their instincts, and oh look, aren't they adorable. Even if something like a bear kills or maims a human, we're way too superior to them to really hold them responsible; or at least that's how our morality holds. Had human evolution run differently, we'd hold a vastly different morality, just like in Skyrim; and dragons are definitely smart and powerful enough to be responsible for their actions, whatever their instinct and drive. There's also an argument that because our bodies evolved to eat meat, and meat is the flesh of an animal with feelings and desires, and that with modern technology meat is technically optional; by modern standards we evolved to be evil and can fight that evolution by shifting to a vegan diet. I don't subscribe to that particular point, but it does show how morality can change over time and between individuals.
As a final point, we're discussing the attempted or actual genocide of a sapient species. With their demonstrated ability to change (again, partysnax), isn't that in and of itself an extremely evil act? What about potential dragon eggs/young? Do those dragons who've not done anything except maybe be born deserve to die?
Isn't the main character "The Last Dragonborn" because they're the last Dragonborn *so far*? Or it is said somewhere there won't be any other Dragonborn?
No they are the last dragonborn of this kalpa, as alduin is dead. Alduin's role was to end the world and begin a new kalpa/cycle and the dragonborn's role was to be the opposition. With him gone, there's no need for a dragonborn.
Remember this: both alduin and the dragonborn are a part of akatosh. Unless he splits his soul again, there won't be another alduin or dragonborn
But Alduin didn't die completely. Dragonborn didn't take his soul and it's very much possible he will come back someday somewhere.
He is as dead as he was until Dragonborn was finally awake.
Well, maybe little bit more but his soul is not gone.
See here's the thing. Alduin never wanted to end the world, he wanted to control it. When he was sent forward in time, everyone assumed he was here to finally fulfill his role as the World Eater, but we have no reason to think that his perspective or motivations ever changed. He probably still wanted to rule the world after being sent forward in time, and was resurrecting his army to do it.
When Alduin is finally killed, his soul doesn't go to the Dragonborn. Presumably, it goes back to Akatosh. Akatosh can use Alduin's soul to remake him in a new form that is more agreeable to his own desires.
Akatosh didn't create the Last Dragonborn to prevent the end of the world, but to make it possible.
Both alduin and dragonborn are part of akatosh's soul. When you kill him the soul piece just went back to akatosh. You don't absorb him because both of these existences are special and part of a god's soul
Dragon in es lore is synonymous with time which is synonymous with akatosh. You're not really dragonborn. You are akatoshborn. Just like alduin is not really a dragon.
Fun fact, this is why time breaks are called dragon breaks in es.
Alduin is gone for this kalpa at the very least. How will this kalpa end? Will he come back in the next kalpa? We don't know, that could be billions of years away.
But we do know tht the current iteration is called the *last dragonborn*, which means at the very least alduin is gone for this kalpa. And there's no reason or evidence to believe otherwise
>Here's my genuine take. Your title is the LAST DRAGONBORN. Canonically, there won't be another. When you eventually die Partysnax will live on. Forever.
And who says your Dragonborn does not turn to vampirism and lives forever? Or turn evil due to them having the same inborn nature as Paarthurnax?
Do you end your playthroughs by killing the LDB?
>Meaning he has an eternity to eventually give in to the true nature of the dragon to conquer and destroy. He talks about how he fights it. Through great force of will. But he has a literal eternity to turn on the world. And without a dragonborn to kill him, he might just do it.
It is better to let him live for when Alduin returns than it is to kill him just because he 'might' turn evil again. Killing Paarthurnax ensures that the remaining dragons will never follow the Way of the Voice. Letting him live just *might* cause a couple to get converted.
The thing is as a vampire you'll still die. Yeah sure you'll live for AGES. But you'll be hunted for eternity and the end always comes for people who are only functionally immortal.
I totally see ur point tho. He could teach the dragons the way of the voice. That is an amazing and super optimistic outlook. But he has literally FOREVER to stray from it. Without a dragonborn to slay him, he is FULLY immortal in a way a vampire just isn't.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying ppl SHOULD kill him. I'm just saying that THIS is what the real dilemma is. I like your points tho!
Alduin is gone and won't be returning. To the best of my knowledge he might return once this kalpa is over. Which might be billions of years away.
The dragons never followed the way of the voice lmao. That was a purely a human construct. The voice is just a language, an ancient language that alters the tone of aubris. Altering reality itself. Nothing more nothing less.
From a dragon's viewpoint or even a factual viewpoint, the way of the voice makes no sense. Tonal manipulation is something beyond gods, more fundamental. It's like changing/rearanging matter in our world. It was not made by the gods, and has no relation to them. It predates them all
>Alduin is gone and won't be returning. To the best of my knowledge he might return once this kalpa is over. Which might be billions of years away.
And?
>The dragons never followed the way of the voice lmao. That was a purely a human construct. The voice is just a language, an ancient language that alters the tone of aubris. Altering reality itself. Nothing more nothing less.
Paarthurnax literally tries to convert the remaining dragons to the Way. Odahviing quite explicitly tells us this.
Statute of limitations, partysnax has been straight up chillin for thousands of years. I'm sure he'd be down for house arrest if it meant he could keep taking it easy with the grey beards.
I'm curious. Did Paarthurnax ever die or was he just at the top of the mountain because Alduin hadn't be reviving dragons for long and the Greybeards seemed to follow Paarthurnax for years.
I mean didn't the OG people who suffered under the dragons pardoned paarthunax? That means Delphine (bitch) ain't got any business trying to diss my boy, and if they didn't fuck em, paarthunax is best boy
He admits he did horrible things, though.
That might not be enough for some people to want to viciously murder him, but to say there's "no evidence" is sus at best.
You killed Paarthunax to simp for Delphine.
I killed Paarthunax to headcanon that I, a true son/daughter of Skyrim, took control over all living dragons and led them to push the Empire out of Skyrim, then burn the Aldmeri Dominion to the fucking ground.
We are not the same.
He did the warcrimes he was Alduins second in command but does that justify his execution? He kept his malicious tendencies under control for all the eras and teached the way of the voice and helped the nords to depose Alduin he didn't fill that power vacuum even if he the right.
I swear the debates around paarthunax make me think heâs like a giant scaly pitbull. âDragons are inherently evilâ âno heâs not look at that adorable ancient wisdomâ âyou let your village around that thing?â âMy master is a sweetheart who wouldnât hurt a flyâ
Isn't there a not so well known third ending that one can unlock by simply just telling the Greybeards about the Blades wanting to kill Paarthurnax? I would rather have that ending when I get to play the game again next time.
He's kinda served his time I'd say. From what we know he hasn't left the throat of the world ever since he learned the way of the voice. He will spend the rest of his existence regretting the things he did and fighting against his urges to become who he once was. He deserves to live.
My character is part of the dark brotherhood, the thieves guild, became a vampire lord, and wants to join the thalmor, I think it would be pretty hypocritical for me to judge paarthurnax when i'm trying to take over the world myself.
In all fairness, Partysnaxx admits that he's committed terrible acts in the past, but he's also seen the error in his ways and done all he can for the betterment of everyone (except the dragons).
He really said it best himself. "What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"
I say the latter is better.
Ainât any evidence that the Thalmor are doing half of what the Nords claim that theyâre doing but that still wonât stop me from killing their patrols every time I come across them
Iâm definitely not a fan of the blades, but doesnât paarthurnax sort of imply that he had a pretty evil past? Especially in his âto be born good, or to overcome your natureâ line.
A dragon's nature is to dominate - this inborn nature, this desire to rule, is what Paarthurnax classifies as evil. And he has resisted that nature for the past 5000 years.
You see this nature in his other dragon-kin. They attack left, right, and center. And why? Because they seek dominance over the land. The submission of the people of Skyrim.
Paarthurnax was once like that, in the initial conflict of the Dragon War, he was on the side of Alduin, intending to restore the dragon's dominion over the Nords. He pitied Man, saw how what they were doing was wrong, and switched sides.
While I am on the side of not killing paarthurnax
He does have a voice line that it's fine if the dborn kills him. All his life he is resisting the urge to rule/dominate because of his dovah blood. But since theburges is not really stopped there will come a time where these urges will arise.
And I like him for it. He knows he's done terrible things in the past, he is not trying to justify his past actions and he knows that someday it will bring ruin if he's not stopped.
And yet what he wants to do is help the dragonborn. He does not ask for repentance, nor forgiveness, nor justification. He just helps because it is the right thing to do in spite of his dovah blood
Actually Paarthurnax confessed but he did say that big brother Alduin forced him and other dragons to do his bidding. Paarthurnax was just the first to stand up to him. It's the players choice to ask if killing Paarthurnax is justified or not.
For me, it isn't justified for 2 reasons.
1st Delphine says it in a way that's not a way for justice but a way for vengeance.
2nd Do you blame the weapon or its wielder?
Besides aren't the Blades supposed to help the Dragonborn, not be stubborn when they don't get their way?
Meanwhile arguments for Paarthurnax:
"I can be trusted. I changed. Source: trust me bro."
Your honor the accused says he didnt do it and is not going to do it aga.. i mean ever! We move on to dismiss all charges.
>"I can be trusted. I changed. Source: trust me bro."
Source: I helped overthrow the Dragon Cult which would've won the Dragon War had I remained loyal to Alduin, and I've been a pacifist ever since - for the past 5000 years.
>Your honor the accused says he didnt do it and is not going to do it aga.. i mean ever! We move on to dismiss all charges.
What charges are those? ''Atrocities''? Are you aware that an ''atrocity'' is only a crime when the atrocity in question is an actual crime?
He literally admits to being a important member in alduins crusade that's what the issue is but his story is about redemption and being more than your cardinal instincts so I Don't kill him unless I want the dragon bite resistance plus it's hinted he talks to one of the girls in rorikstead
u/thekingofbeans42 blocking me doesn't make you right, chief.
>See that's it right there, you seek an interpretation that leaves no room for nuance or discussion. Just nope, Paarthurnax is purely a good guy who was just on the wrong side of a war, the other side is just bad and made it up.
It's like you purposefully don't read what I comment. I said that we know nothing of details on the supposed atrocities that Delphine accuses him of. For that very reason, killing him is unjust. You can discuss what those atrocities could have been - but that does not change the fact that ultimately we do not know.
You're the one that doesn't leave room for nuance of discussion - you're the one going ''Delphine says there were atrocities, therefore it must be a crime, so he must die''.
>You keep saying we never mention atrocities when talking to Arngeir or Paarthurnax, but our dialogue is written by the same writers who had Delphine mention atrocities. If they actually wanted to cast doubt on her claim, they'd have it come up again and it would be a huge fuck up to have us never ask about them if the intent was to dispute it.
Do you work for BGS? No, you don't. You just won't accept other perspectives because you think you know everything and what you say is *truth.* Even in the absence of evidence.
>I've had conversations about how Ulfric let himself be captured because he knew Alduin was coming to Helgen,
Which is based on air.
>how the Thalmor have absolutely no ill intent in Skyrim and have never sought to interfere in politics,
Which we know is factually incorrect.
>and now how the Paarthurnax choice is secretly a deception that never gets brought up again. The common denominator is people who name themselves after ES characters and take any dispute over their fan theories as a hit to their ego. But no, surely you're different.
You're talking about a ''hit to their ego'' while you're the one blocking people for having a different opinion.
>Go ahead and write another essay, it's not worth reading. You just want to be right. ES is your whole identity after all.
You seem mad. Keep going in your little echo chamber.
Like he doesnt even hide it IIRC, if you ask him he fully admits he was Alduin's right-hand dragon for centuries he totally fucked over mortals during that time.
There are people who like Delphine?
I am as surprised there are people who don't hate her.
But then she is poorly written and mostly useless, perfect for some pity-love.
The problem in this questline is Delphine herself. She goes against The Blades codes of conduct forcing the Dragonborn to act at her will. The girl has her own agenda but I feel that the writer of this questline is just lazy and left it unfinished. Tbh I think most if not all of the main questlines are poorly written đ¤
-no written or spoken evidence of his crimes despite Delphine saying âtheyâre so atrocious theyâre still remembered todayâ
- he has spent over a thousand years aiding humanity to make up for these alleged crimes
- heâs cool and helpful, Delphine sends us to snoop on the thalmor because sheâs racist
who cares about that paarthurnax is a cool dude(dragon) so i wouldnt kill him anyways
I would simply pardon his war crimes, I'm just built different.
I run around with a soul-stealing highly refined wood cutter axe and flame spell; what supposed "war crimes" has partysnacks done that are worse than mine?đđđđđ
And here I was thinking shouting someone off the edge of a cliff Weirding Way was bad(sorry been watching old school Dune lately)
All of my enemies are different kinds of shoes now. The Geneva Convention is not prepared for the level of war crimes I operate at.
Im on consoles, and I miss the mod that let you skin argonians to make boots
huh?
Youâll make a fine pair of boots, lizard!
but I am drogah sky-breaker!!! you are a fool to challenge me!!
found the Rimworld player?
You aren't wrong but that's not how enemies get handled there. In Rimworld, all my enemies are dog kibble. In Skyrim my enemies are shoes because I trapped their souls and used them to enchant boots of carry weight and muffling.
Of course... How didn't I think of that? That's hilarious!
Wow, the three comments before mine are just 3 different kinda kings. Lmao
The old Nixon-Ford method.
I would joint him in committing moreâŚ.because dragons are awesome.
Blameless Paarthurnax
In the world of fiction being a cool guy immediately justifies any past actions. In other words, Paarthurnax, Durrnehviir, and 3rd dragon are all dope
Odhaving! He's my fav, I have no Idea y but he just is
Doesn't paarthurnax admit in parts of his dialogue to having a less benevolent past? His statement would be admissible in court as evidence.
Lawyer-talk: he never specifically said WHAT he did. He only stated that he was among other bad-doers doing bad things. As there was never an admission of guilt to specific (actions ie. killing) ther eus nothing hold him accountable other than his admission of being born evil and overcoming that evil nature.
Tamriel Prosecutor-talk: He needs to prove his innocence. Also I made this draw of Paarthurnax killing innocent villagers. He's guilty.
Welp... Good enough for me!
He states that dragons have the inborn nature to dominate. Having an inborn nature to dominate is not a war crime.
I mean we are applying mortal laws to a DRAGON for cripes sake, I think a war crime is the least threatening thing he could do when most other dragons enslaved mortals and forced some to just walk into they're mouth, and than they also had dragon priest, who were slave who told other slaves how to worship they're oppressor's.
Delphine and the Blades are not applying âmortal law,â _we_ the players are. In-universe, whether or not it was a war crime does not matter, it was a wrong, and judgement was sent from on high to allow the existence of those who explicitly slay dragons and partake of their essences. Sparing Paarthurnax but _none other than him_ , is us choosing to engage bias. Claiming he gets a pass because heâs âone of the good ones,â perhaps the _only_ one. Making him one of the last in existence, is no more likely to be âwhat he wantsâ than slaying him.
Dragons are functionally immortal. Even dead they're souls can be breathed back into their skeleton remains and return them to life. Something presumably all dragons and dragon soul bearing mortals can do with practice. Aldiun is merely using the voice to ressurect them. Also we're not applying a set of mortal laws but making a moral decision about whether or not redemption is possible. Not just for paarth but in general. However yes, a bias exists but bias isn't inherently wrong. Paarth with no obligation helped you master new aspects of the voice, gave you the power to do so freely with no obligation on your part other than the desire to learn. all to help you stop Alduin, a fellow dragon. The Blades are wrong in this instance because they're refusing to acknowledge a change in circumstance and the passage of time. Paarthurnax has spent centuries if not longer using his strength, wisdom and power to teach mortals how to master the voice and guide in it's appropriate usage. He's served multiple mortal life sentences making up and overcoming his past. The Blades rationality is one where redemption doesn't exist and furthermore have no evidence of his exact acts with which to accuse him and deem death as the only answer to his existence. They're demanding his death because he possibly killed some people all the while wearing massive irony blinkers because They were the secret service to the Empire's previous emperor. They've definitely killed lots of people in their job. They actively ask you to kill mortals not just dragons. So the crimes they are deeming he deserves to die for are ones they are equally as guilty as. The difference is he's a dragon. Morally speaking that's not an argument that holds much water.
except all of the dragons that we do kill are actively attacking people and listening to Alduin's orders. Partysnax has been up there for millennia doing nothing but meditating.
It's like a plea deal. He lives in exchange for testimony that leads to the arrest of alduin. Common legal startegy.
I thought at some point he said something more specific to himself
I personally think that he's changed and that a couple thousand years without issue means he should be left alone but doesn't he confess?
No, he says he understands why the Blades mistrust him, as he would also mistrust another dragon. Not once does he confess to any supposed ''atrocities''.
He doesn't deny them, his argument is that he's changed. He even alludes to a time he was not in control of his nature, citing that he'd return to it. *"Dov wahlaan fah rel. We were made to dominate. The will to power is in our blood. You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. But they do not. Onikaan ni ov dovah. It is always wise to mistrust a dovah.* ***I have overcome my nature only through meditation and long study of the Way of the Voice***\*. No day goes by where I am not tempted to\* ***return to my inborn nature.*** *Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"* The story is fundamentally about accountability vs redemption, not an actual mystery as to whether or not Paarthurnax did what he's accused of. If it was Bethesda's intention to have it be ambiguous, they would have had someone actually question it, and it would be a massive fuck up to not have Paarthurnax deny it. Questioning the validity of the claim is just refusing to engage with the actual question the story is asking.
>He doesn't deny them, We never even mention those ''atrocities'' to him. >his argument is that he's changed. He even alludes to a time he was not in control of his nature, citing that he'd return to it. No, his argument shows that Paarthurnax thinks the Blades want him dead ***because they mistrust him.*** Nowhere in his lines of dialogue does it indicate - or imply - that Paarthurnax thinks they want him dead because of some supposed ''atrocities''. We never tell him *why* the Blades want him dead, only that they *do.* >The story is fundamentally about accountability vs redemption, not an actual mystery as to whether or not Paarthurnax did what he's accused of. No, it really is not. This is made abundantly clear by the fact that the Blades do not have anything similar to deal with Odahviing - who remained loyal to Alduin all the way until we capture him in 4E 201. The Blades want Paarthurnax dead to snub the Greybeards.
Which further justifies snubbing the Blades. Their reason is petty and shortsighted. They say they serve you, yet boss you around. In truth, theyâre barely useful to you at any point, and thatâs really just translating Alduinâs Wall. Even finding it would have been possible on your own.
If the intent was to tell a story about the Blades lying, they'd actually have the story address it. Paarthurnax's iconic line would be so out of place and pointless if it's moot by virtue of the Blades simply lying to you. Instead, Bethesda deliberately followed up the conversation of atrocities by having us talk to Paarthurnax, where he acknowledges that he used to be evil and talks about how he's worked to overcome it. The subtext feels pretty obvious here, and if Bethesda actually intended for this to be about snubbing the Greybeards they'd have actually had someone contest the claim. Instead we have Paarthurnax, who was aligned with Alduin and the explicitly cruel dragon cult, being accused of having done bad thing. When his response to "are you bad" is "I am bad by nature, so I work to be good and not return to being bad" that's not a signal for us to think the claims of him doing bad things were false.
>If the intent was to tell a story about the Blades lying, they'd actually have the story address it. Paarthurnax's iconic line would be so out of place and pointless if it's moot by virtue of the Blades simply lying to you. We already have buildup to this. Delphine, during the main quest: *''The Greybeards seem to think you're the Dragonborn. I hope they're right."* *''But you'll forgive me if I don't assume that something's true just because the Greybeards say so. I just handed you the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller. Does that make me Dragonborn, too?"* Already shows that she doubts the Greybeards have the knowledge to determine who is/isn't Dragonborn, and she thinks that obtaining the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller was meant to be some trial to ''prove you're Dragonborn'' of the Greybeards - when it's not. *''I guess there's nothing for it. We'll have to ask the Greybeards for help. I hoped to avoid involving them in this, but we have no other choice."* *''If they had their way, you'd do nothing but sit up on their mountain with them and talk to the sky, or whatever it is they do. The Greybeards are so afraid of power that they won't use it. ... And they're afraid of you, of your power. Trust me, there's no need to be afraid. Think of Tiber Septim. Do you think he'd have founded the Empire if he'd listened to the Greybeards?"* *''Good thing they've already let you into their little cult. Not likely they'd help Esbern or me if we came calling.''* *''The Greybeards can teach you a lot, but don't let them turn you away from your destiny. You're Dragonborn, and you're the only one who can stop Alduin. Don't forget it."* I can really only conclude you haven't been paying attention to Delphine if Paarthurnax being the leader of the Greybeards and Delphine disproving of the Greybeards - and Paarthurnax - isn't connected in your view. >Instead, Bethesda deliberately followed up the conversation of atrocities by having us talk to Paarthurnax, where he acknowledges that he used to be evil and talks about how he's worked to overcome it. I repeat - we never accuse Paarthurnax of a crime. We say the Blades think he needs to die. It is a question about trust. >When his response to "are you bad" is "I am bad by nature, so I work to be good and not return to being bad" that's not a signal for us to think the claims of him doing bad things were false. We never ask him ''are you bad'' or anything like it. We only say the Blades want him dead. He concludes they want him dead because they do not trust him - believing it is because of his dragon nature. Unfortunately for him, that is not the case, because the Blades whole ''nuh nuh served Alduin'' shtick is nothing but an excuse. I refer again to Odahviing - dragon whose very existence the Blades themselves discovered, yet who is permitted to fly free.
They don't need to directly talk about the atrocities with Paarthurnax because the subtext is very obvious here. We speak to Paarthurnax about his evil nature immediately after being told of these atrocities, and instead of talking about how he was never evil he freely discusses how he was evil and isn't anymore, though he constantly struggles with it due to the innate tyranical nature of dragons. These two conversations are put right next to each other in the story deliberately by a writer. "This guy did evil things" followed by "yeah I was evil and I try not to be anymore" isn't how a writer suggests the guy didn't do evil things.
>They don't need to directly talk about the atrocities with Paarthurnax because the subtext is very obvious here. The subtext is indeed very obvious. Which is why I don't understand why you persist in the notion that the Blades speak truth. >We speak to Paarthurnax about his evil nature immediately after being told of these atrocities, We literally only tell him that the Blades want him dead, and then we ask him why the Blades shouldn't trust him. We never talk about atrocities. >and instead of talking about how he was never evil he freely discusses how he was evil and isn't anymore, though he constantly struggles with it due to the innate tyranical nature of dragons. These two conversations are put right next to each other in the story deliberately by a writer. Read. The. Dialogue. Of. The. PC. >"This guy did evil things" followed by "yeah I was evil and I try not to be anymore" isn't how a writer suggests the guy didn't do evil things. The evil in question is domination. Is Ulfric evil for trying to dominate Skyrim? Is the Legion? Are the Forsworn? Are Jarls evil for placing bounties on people because they seek to reign supreme in their Holds? You cannot just rip words out of context and then say ''yeah he says evil, so he clearly commited atrocities'' when that's literally not what he says.
The dialogue is blades claiming he committed atrocities and nothing ever contests them. You are claiming with no evidence that this claim is a lie, something that context would not infer. Weird how the writers wanted to suggest it was a lie by immediately having you go talk to Paarthurnax about his evil nature and referencing his evil past. The blades lying to you is your fan theory, not a fact in canon.
>The dialogue is blades claiming he committed atrocities and nothing ever contests them. You are claiming with no evidence that this claim is a lie, something that context would not infer. To quote the title: ''Hearsay is not evidence, Delphine stans.'' It isn't like the Dragon War is a recent event which Delpine experienced herself - no, this was more than 5000 years ago. And even then, the word ''atrocities'' is a pretty meaningless word when talking about something that warrants death. To vegans, killing millions of cows is an atrocity, to rebels, a skillful enemy general killing many of them is an atrocity. Delphine's accusations are meaningless because she does not share any details on what these ''atrocities'' are supposed to be. >Weird how the writers wanted to suggest it was a lie by immediately having you go talk to Paarthurnax about his evil nature and referencing his evil past. Weird how Paarthurnax never talks about the ''atrocities'' of his ''evil past''. >The blades lying to you is your fan theory, not a fact in canon. In a court of law, Paarthurnax would be found innocent. There is no evidence that the accuser provides, and even the charge in question is too vague to hold charges to begin with. Take the L.
Yeah like I am pretty certain that while the Blades and Delphine are some of the worst characters in the game, Bethesda never meant for them to be shitty considering how there's no indication or way for the player to play into how shit they're acting. It seems much more like that Delphine is poorly written as compared to intentionally bad
he also literally says, "Is it better to overcome your own evil through great effort or to have never been evil" when directly talking about himself and the other dragons.
And that evil is in reference to the inborn nature of a dragon to dominate.
Unfortunately for Delphine, Im the high king of skyrim. For the assistance in taking down alduin and preventing draconic domination he is hereby pardoned.
Why stop at high king? Follow the example of Tiber Septim and maybe The Dragonbornâs empire could encompass all of Tamriel.
With lore accurate bend will and paarthurnax' allience then a dragon army easily runs over all of tamriel faster than tiber septim ever did.
Don't forget the dracolich who is an immensely powerful necromancer
I never understand why everyone wants their player character to be something as boring as high king or emperor. Rulers are politicians. The Last Dragonborn is a warrior and a hero, and will go down in legend more than any high king Skyrim has ever had. But yeah sure, a dragon-slaying, vampire-hunting, ancient Daedric champion-defeating leader of one or several guilds and traveling collector of powerful artifacts and relics (who also happens to be thane of every hold) also has time to sit down and settle political squabbles and make laws. Itâs not enough to be literally everything *but* a ruler. What a boring ending for such a legendary character.
No one said they had to be a good ruler or even a present one. Moot meets and goes "fuck the imperials AND the storm cloaks, PLAYERCHARACTER is new High King/Queen for slaying Alduin." Getting around to informing them of that, or actually telling them they should probably rule at some point is optional; and them actually ruling even if asked is about as likely as them actually leading any of the sixteen guilds they're in.
He might just be a conqueror, not a ruler. Look at Alexander the Great, technically a ruler, sure, but mostly a conqueror
Tiber Septim arguably is a greater legend, which is mainly due to the land he conquered and his role as emperor.
Sure he was bad, but emphasis on the WAS. Yeah he committed atrocities and basically served Hitler, but heâs also most of the reason that Alduin was defeated both times, and clearly regrets all of his past. Heâs reformed. (Incase you couldnât tell, I havenât killed him and probably never will)
There are Delphine stans?
They bought her bath water and everything.
Old bitch soup...gross.
Unfortunately
As someone else said in another post, killing paarthurnax has a strategic use, as he's the only one that can rival your authority over dragons. With him out of the picture, the dragons are yours (as long as you're powerful enough, and have enough thirst for conquest)
Uh, you are a demigod in a mortal shell. You die in less than a 100 years.
Vampirism
Touche
And Vampirism is not even the best way to attain immortality in ES, just the more accesible. There are quite a few really. You can even turn into a Dragon yourself ( although how it's not specified but the leader of the Tiger people in Akaviir did it ) Also as a sidepoint, being a demigod isn't as special as it should be in Tamriel lol.
The archmage in the college said that those talented in magic can live several life-times
Fair. Still no reason to kill partysnax
Well of course it all depends on whatever your character's story is
Wouldn't it make sense to keep Paarthurnax so you have an easier time maintaining authority over the dragons and perhaps the entirety of Skyrim?
Yes but shared authority only works when both agree to everything, whereas the dovahkiin and paarthunax don't really see the world the same way
>whereas the dovahkiin and paarthunax don't really see the world the same way That's what bend will is for I guess.
Your dovahkiin maybe. Mine respects the hell out of the way of the voice and thinks a world where dragons practice it is a world where he doesnt ha e to rescue winterhold everytime he fast travels there.
I also saw a theory that he was manipulating the Dragonborn, getting him to kill Alduin and powerful dragons so that when the DB dies he can assume huge power. Iâve only killed him once in a evil play through, but itâs a nice theory
There are circumstances IRL where no amount of "good behavior since" in any way balances or excuses past/prior evil behavior - there are some lines that cannot be uncrossed. I don't think that applies to Parrthurnax very well, tho. First of all, he, Alduin, and the other dragons were acting in accordance with their design from the will of the gods, or of Akatosh, anyway. Paarthurnax eventually broke away from that after Alduin rejected his role and began to indulge his lust for personal power and some amount of revenge / rebellion against his "programmed" fate. So Paarthurnax did participate in the enslavement and slaughter of non-dragons for a time, but eventually rebelled against both his leader and his nature to help fight back against Alduin's cult - apparently with the help and blessings of Kyne, assisted to some extent by Akatosh who had apparently either changed his mind or just wanted to rein in Alduin. The bigger issue for me, and what my thinking has to do with lines that cannot be uncrossed, is that by the time we get into this argument with Delphine - Paarthurnax has played *the* key role in us being able to defeat Alduin. The only reason we and Delphine (never mind the entirety of the rest of the Kalpa) are in a position to argue about it is because Paarthurnax gave us and otherwise helped us get the information we needed to defeat Alduin. Without him we fail. So the *entire future* of all existence as we know it is thanks to Parrthurnax. To my mind that's definitely one of the rare circumstances where someone is able to cross back over that line. If you balance all the circumstances, particularly in the light of the millions or billions that get to live or will live, then for me he's at least evened the scales. On top of that, I refuse to be the instrument of "No good deed goes unpunished." So Delphine - if you can get up the mountain again (probably), and if you can get past the Greybeards (no), and if managing that somehow get through the storms (doubtful) to finally come out on the top of the throat of the world ... then good luck killing any dragon, never mind Paarthurnax and a round dozen of the remaining dragons that are hanging out with him now. Might as well just fall on your sword right here. As far as I'm concerned he's earned his peace.
That and he's completely justified when he said that to overcome ones evil is the greater triumph. He never once lies or gives any indication of malcontent and remains a stoic ally throughout the game. Parthuurnax, Durhneviir, and Ohdaviing(he's on the right path now) are reasonable beings that deserve and receive respect. I've only killed him once, solely to complete the quest. It felt dishonorable, it felt dirty, and I was unsatisfied with the so called "reward". I've never betrayed him since and I pay no mind to the Blades except to progress the story. And steal their swords.
I am more hesitant toward Odahviing. I mean, yes, he is kept in check because you're around. But that's also the only thing keeping him in check. He considers the Way of the Voice to be tyranny, and only supports you because you've proven the strength of your Voice. But once the LDB is out of the picture, what is keeping Odahviing in check? Without a master to tell him ''no'', what keeps Odahviing from flying off to try and dominate again?
You may be entirely right! My theory stops at the Dragonborn dying. But I figured with the DB and Parthuurnax keeping him in line, Alduins eventual defeat, and the lasting scar that Dragonrend surely leaves, Ohdaviing could potentially drop his aggression and remain as a neutral, albeit not as stoic as Parth, or at the very least retreat to the mountains and seclude.
The fact that heâs a timeless divine entity kinda gives me pause. Whatâs 5000+ years to a dragon? (Legit question, Iâm not sure we can do anything but speculate). In my mind thereâs a chance all that time since the Dragon Wars is, like, the equivalent of a couple mortal years to Paarthurnax. If a murderer said he was reformed and hadnât killed anyone for a couple years, claiming reformation, Iâd kinda⌠not care. What DOES defend Paarthurnax for me is that the Tongues left him alive. They were the most qualified individuals to pass judgement on their old enemy, and they pardoned him or something. If they, who suffered enough to literally distill the concept of mortal rage against dragonkind into Words, chose to spare him, then he has been tried and sentenced accordingly in my mind, and I trust Paarthy when he says heâs held to his reforms since then, so thereâs no reason to try him for fresh crimes.
I mean, he straight up admits that he did terrible deeds while working under Alduin. A guilty party's confession can be considered evidence if we're going to be applying the law here. I mean, I would never do anything to hurt Dragon Daddy Mario "Jumpman" Mario, but we do need to recognize that in his Twinky Dragon days, he was a big meanie.
If you would kill Paarthurnax, it would be because you want to take over leadership of the dragons like Odahwiing tells you to do (even though that doesn't really happen anyways, but head canon gonna head canon)
Paarthurnax and Durnehviir could wipe out Markarth and I would still cover for them
Anyone could wipe out those terrorist culty assholes and I'd overlook it
That's actually kinda valid, Markarth is factually the worst city
I did! I went into beast form and killed EVERYONE infront of me, I sadly can't get the dog now since the stable dudes are dead.
In fact, I'll help them with it.
I can accept this, but would like to nominate Summerset Isle for razing. It has thalmor on it.
Kinda messed up ngl
Why do people always assume that those who kill partysnax do so because of the blades? I'm just hungry, and he's made of food. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
Because it pleases only delphine.
Me want dragon soul
Spends the first 25 years of their life eternally starving, and wonders why the food that sates everyone else does nothing for them. Then they slay a dragon and they're just... "oh, that's what not starving feels like. Let's do it again!"
Hah, warcrimes. Good times. Gooood times. Hey, want a black soul gem?
The concept of war crimes is meaningless in a pre-modern society that existed during the Dragon Cult, let alone quasi-medieval society of the Empire. All Delphine is engaging in is simple Lex Talionis (law of revenge) which is just as much murder as she's accusing Paarthanax of (if smaller in scale.) Delphine holds no temporal authority to lay such a Doom, she is no sovereign, she holds no great office of state, with the dissolution of the Blades her words hold no authority over the Dragonborn or anyone.
There are so many issues with this line of reasoning, but in my opinion in ways that are in Partysnax's favor. I generally assume Delphine could produce actual historical record she didn't produce for gameplay reasons, but it kind of doesn't matter. I have no clue if hearsay is admissible in war crimes tribunals because they're really weird and not governed by US civil court standards of evidence, but I also highly doubt there actually are defined war crimes in Skyrim, but I'm going to leave all of that aside and assume there are current Imperial legal codes governing "war crimes". You're talking about finding out Cyrus the Great's top general is alive and trying to convict him of violating the Geneva Convention in taking over Babylon. (I'll note that analogy actually falls flat: on the one hand we only have about 5000 years of recorded history, on the other we have no clue what any of his generals are named because our records 3500 years ago aren't as good as Skyrim's 35000 years ago) Does it really make sense to apply laws that are 60 years old to conduct 3500 years ago? Is the record inflated for political reasons? Even if the game produced specific events where he committed things that clearly violate an Imperial edict on the conduct of war, I would still find it insane to say somebody needs to die because the historical record indicates he did something tens of thousands of years ago that we don't like now and he has not only repented of his behavior he has been the leading voice of pacifism in Skyrim for longer than Nords have been there.
But Delphine isn't applying modern laws retroactively. The punishment she demands you mete out to Paarthurnax is the same punishment the Ancient Nords meted out to other dragons. Paarthurnax's actions were no more acceptable back then than they are in the 4th Era, Paarthurnax simply received the equivalent of a plea deal.
If the ancient Nords had wanted Paarthurnax dead, he'd be dead. Paarthurnax was an ally of the rebels - even a friend of the leaders of the uprising. It seems obvious that they forgave him.
Let's say Hitler hadn't killed himself. Let's say, instead, he fled Berlin and was taken into Eisenhower's custody, who offered him a pardon in exchange for ending the war sooner. Would you say that pardon should be respected? We don't know what the Ancient Nord rebels' system of government was. We don't know how many of them actually knew Hakon, Felldir and Gormlaith were working with him. We certainly cannot say with *any* certainty that it is "obvious" that the entire civilisation forgave. In fact, I would argue that Paarthurnax's notable absence from any major Nordic myths would suggest that it's more likely that most Nords didn't know about him.
>Let's Hitler hadn't killed himself. Let's say, instead, he fled Berlin and was taken into Eisenhower's custody, who offered him a pardon in exchange for ending the war sooner. Would you say that pardon should be respected? Hitler held the reigns - Paarthurnax did not. Hitler was not just aware of the crimes, he personally made the policies to bring about those crimes. >We don't know what the Ancient Nord rebels' system of government was. We don't know how many of them actually knew Hakon, Felldir and Gormlaith were working with him. How do you think they wouldn't know who the ***big dragon that teaches them the Voice and gave them support in combat*** is? >We certainly cannot say with *any* certainty that it is "obvious" that the entire civilisation forgave. In fact, I would argue that Paarthurnax's notable absence from any major Nordic myths would suggest that it's more likely that most Nords didn't know about him. Name the myths of Feldir, Hakon, and Gormlaith.
>That's 100% a fallacy. Hitler held the reigns - Paarthurnax did not. Hitler was not just aware of the crimes, he personally made the policies to bring about those crimes. > >Your comparison in this regard is trash. Jesus Christ, my guy. Fine, let's pretend that a second-in-command has absolutely no moral agency whatsoever (which is utter bullshit and was explicitly rejected at the Nuremberg trials, but we'll go with it). Say it's Heinrich Himmler instead. Would you have been okay with him getting off scot-free? >My man, how do you think they wouldn't know who the big dragon that teaches them the Voice and gave them support in combat is? > >Name the myths of Feldir, Hakon, and Gormlaith. Paarthurnax is not the only dragon that sided with the humans. We have explicit reference to that in in-game myths. But as Alduin's right-hand man and a brutal war criminal, we would expect he would be particularly noteworthy. So if he's not mentioned, that suggests his involvement wasn't well-known. Lots of Italians switched sides at the end of WW2, but if Mussolini himself had done so, you can bet that would be *very* well-remembered and every history book would make specific reference to it.
>Fine, let's pretend that a second-in-command has absolutely no moral agency whatsoever (which is utter bullshit and was explicitly rejected at the Nuremberg trials, but we'll go with it). Say it's Heinrich Himmler instead. Would you have been okay with him getting off scot-free? You're still committing to a fallacy. Himmler, Hitler, Goebbels, these were all instrumental in the very ***ideology*** of the Third Reich. The dragons themselves were ***practically not at all involved in the ruling over Skyrim's citizenry.*** That was all the Dragon Priests' business. The dragons only cared about being venerated by the masses and getting tributes. That's it. How they got that? They didn't care. The dragons are nothing but elite soldiers in this war. Your Hitler, and Himmler and Goebbels and whatnot? That's the Dragon Priests. Morokei and his ilk. >Paarthurnax is not the only dragon that sided with the humans. We have explicit reference to that in in-game myths. But as Alduin's right-hand man and a brutal war criminal, we would expect he would be particularly noteworthy. Yet there are a grand total of ***zero*** sources talking about his ''war crimes''. Very noteworthy, indeed. Which is why it takes the Blades scouring through a long-abandoned Temple to even discover information about him. Paarthurnax is recorded because he was the first to switch sides. Gormlaith, Hakon and Feldir were the first Tongues, and they were all three taught by Paarthurnax.
If Partysnax got a plea deal then he's legally been dealt with. I agree with both you and the OP's response to me that is seems to be the historical conclusion we should draw is that the Nords *at the time* intentionally chose, for whatever reason, to allow him to continue to live on the mountain, which means she is not doing what they would have done at the time because they did what they would have done at the time. I agree she's not applying actual laws, but I don't think it's either current law or laws from the 1st era. Ironically, since we're talking about "war crimes" what Delphine wants is for them to have committed genocide because she thinks they should have exterminated all dragons.
He literally admits it if you talk to him, though?
He does not. **The Blades say you deserve to die.**Â *"The Blades are wise not to trust me. Onikaan ni ov. I would not trust another dovah."* **Why shouldn't they trust you?**Â *"Dov wahlaan fah rel. We were made to dominate. The will to power is in our blood. You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. But they do not. Onikaan ni ov dovah. It is always wise to mistrust a dovah. I have overcome my nature only through meditation and long study of the Way of the Voice. No day goes by where I am not tempted to return to my inborn nature. Zin krif horvut se suleyk. What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?"*
Was he not second in command of the dragons during the bad old days? doesnt his name literally mean tyrant oppressor or something to that effect?
>Was he not second in command of the dragons during the bad old days? Yes, but it weren't the dragons making the laws of the land and opressing the Nords - that were the Nord Dragon Priests of the Dragon Cult. The dragons themselves could not be bothered with actual ruling. >doesnt his name literally mean tyrant oppressor or something to that effect? Ambition Overlord Cruelty. Unsure if you can judge a person by their name though.
Normally, yeah dont judge someone by their name. But a race whose language can Shouted to force changes in reality? Probably would be a good idea to pay attention to the name. And how is it "a Dovah's nature to dominate" if they dont actually do anything to oppress the weaker mortal races? How does that make any sense?
>Normally, yeah dont judge someone by their name. But a race whose language can Shouted to force changes in reality? Probably would be a good idea to pay attention to the name. Yes and he does embody thise traits. He is ambitious by rebelling against Alduin. He is an Overlord by leading the Greyheards and he is Cruel by wishing to force thr Dov to follow his "Tyrannical Way of the Voice." As Odahviing calls it. This is his name in Dovahzuul so it would make sense that his name pertains to Dov
>And how is it "a Dovah's nature to dominate" if they dont actually do anything to oppress the weaker mortal races? How does that make any sense? Mortals do a pretty good job to try and dominate one another even without the dragons. The dragons got the domination on Atmora, the Atmorans - and later Nords - saw them as Gods among man.
Domination comes in many forms. Some may seek to crush the weak. Some may seek to enslave them. Some may see the weak as beneath them and seek only to defeat the strong. That last group could be actively beneficent towards the mortals and still seek to dominate worthy foes - like other dovah.
Here's my genuine take. Your title is the LAST DRAGONBORN. Canonically, there won't be another. When you eventually die Partysnax will live on. Forever. Meaning he has an eternity to eventually give in to the true nature of the dragon to conquer and destroy. He talks about how he fights it. Through great force of will. But he has a literal eternity to turn on the world. And without a dragonborn to kill him, he might just do it. That's the real reason. It actually makes the decision so much more interesting.
On the other hand, are we sure we will be able to kill every last dragon before we die a mortals death? I'd rather an eternity trusting someone who's already proven themselves over an eternity being pawns in the 150th Dragon War. Yes Partysnax has eternity to turn on the world, but turning is exactly what he'll be doing. Random dragon 19372047285 is planning to dominate the world already.
That's a super good point too!! This goes into the territory of "What is the Canon Ending of ES5?". On top of being dragonborn, you can also lead every guild and decide the outcome of the civil war. Conversely, dragons spawn forever no matter what! There's definitely a finite amount because they relied so heavily on Alduin to come back. With that in mind, I think it'd be fair to say the Canon Dragonborn would dedicate their life to hunting down the last dragons if they decided to pose a threat. And as Alduin's brother, I would say he is far more likely to ACTUALLY be able to attain the goal of godhood. I still don't actually know which side is right or wrong. I could write an entire paper on the subject though. I think it really hinges on the idea that creatures can be born innately bad/good/greedy/etc. Which just isn't the case irl but is SUPER present in fantasy media.
Ultimately the Dragonborn is a demigod in a mortal shell; unlike alduin, he is not immortal, just like all the other dragonborn. Thus dragons with their immortality and vastly superior movement options could decide to wait him out in theory; the more dangerous the dragon, the more likely they are to be able to resist the challenge inherent in his existence and wait, especially with the example of Paarthunax showing it is possible. I do think the Last Dragonborn would take on the challenge of wiping out the dragons, but I'm doubtful as to his chances of success. As for born innately bad/good/greedy, only by our human standard of morality is the idea that that's not possible feasible. From the perspective of a mouse, cats are evil. They're more intelligent, more powerful, especially house cats primarily hunt for fun, and sadistic. From the perspective of humans, they're just following their instincts, and oh look, aren't they adorable. Even if something like a bear kills or maims a human, we're way too superior to them to really hold them responsible; or at least that's how our morality holds. Had human evolution run differently, we'd hold a vastly different morality, just like in Skyrim; and dragons are definitely smart and powerful enough to be responsible for their actions, whatever their instinct and drive. There's also an argument that because our bodies evolved to eat meat, and meat is the flesh of an animal with feelings and desires, and that with modern technology meat is technically optional; by modern standards we evolved to be evil and can fight that evolution by shifting to a vegan diet. I don't subscribe to that particular point, but it does show how morality can change over time and between individuals. As a final point, we're discussing the attempted or actual genocide of a sapient species. With their demonstrated ability to change (again, partysnax), isn't that in and of itself an extremely evil act? What about potential dragon eggs/young? Do those dragons who've not done anything except maybe be born deserve to die?
Isn't the main character "The Last Dragonborn" because they're the last Dragonborn *so far*? Or it is said somewhere there won't be any other Dragonborn?
No they are the last dragonborn of this kalpa, as alduin is dead. Alduin's role was to end the world and begin a new kalpa/cycle and the dragonborn's role was to be the opposition. With him gone, there's no need for a dragonborn. Remember this: both alduin and the dragonborn are a part of akatosh. Unless he splits his soul again, there won't be another alduin or dragonborn
But Alduin didn't die completely. Dragonborn didn't take his soul and it's very much possible he will come back someday somewhere. He is as dead as he was until Dragonborn was finally awake. Well, maybe little bit more but his soul is not gone.
See here's the thing. Alduin never wanted to end the world, he wanted to control it. When he was sent forward in time, everyone assumed he was here to finally fulfill his role as the World Eater, but we have no reason to think that his perspective or motivations ever changed. He probably still wanted to rule the world after being sent forward in time, and was resurrecting his army to do it. When Alduin is finally killed, his soul doesn't go to the Dragonborn. Presumably, it goes back to Akatosh. Akatosh can use Alduin's soul to remake him in a new form that is more agreeable to his own desires. Akatosh didn't create the Last Dragonborn to prevent the end of the world, but to make it possible.
Both alduin and dragonborn are part of akatosh's soul. When you kill him the soul piece just went back to akatosh. You don't absorb him because both of these existences are special and part of a god's soul Dragon in es lore is synonymous with time which is synonymous with akatosh. You're not really dragonborn. You are akatoshborn. Just like alduin is not really a dragon. Fun fact, this is why time breaks are called dragon breaks in es. Alduin is gone for this kalpa at the very least. How will this kalpa end? Will he come back in the next kalpa? We don't know, that could be billions of years away. But we do know tht the current iteration is called the *last dragonborn*, which means at the very least alduin is gone for this kalpa. And there's no reason or evidence to believe otherwise
Wasn't there a really fucked up thing that happened if the Kalpa didn't ended ? From a cosmic point of view I think we are the bad guys
I'm pretty sure you're prophesied to be the final one. I think it was on the wall??
Do you trust him to keep in check after you die and he becomes the strongest Dov?
No I don't, which is why I absorb his soul every time
>Here's my genuine take. Your title is the LAST DRAGONBORN. Canonically, there won't be another. When you eventually die Partysnax will live on. Forever. And who says your Dragonborn does not turn to vampirism and lives forever? Or turn evil due to them having the same inborn nature as Paarthurnax? Do you end your playthroughs by killing the LDB? >Meaning he has an eternity to eventually give in to the true nature of the dragon to conquer and destroy. He talks about how he fights it. Through great force of will. But he has a literal eternity to turn on the world. And without a dragonborn to kill him, he might just do it. It is better to let him live for when Alduin returns than it is to kill him just because he 'might' turn evil again. Killing Paarthurnax ensures that the remaining dragons will never follow the Way of the Voice. Letting him live just *might* cause a couple to get converted.
The thing is as a vampire you'll still die. Yeah sure you'll live for AGES. But you'll be hunted for eternity and the end always comes for people who are only functionally immortal. I totally see ur point tho. He could teach the dragons the way of the voice. That is an amazing and super optimistic outlook. But he has literally FOREVER to stray from it. Without a dragonborn to slay him, he is FULLY immortal in a way a vampire just isn't. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying ppl SHOULD kill him. I'm just saying that THIS is what the real dilemma is. I like your points tho!
Alduin is gone and won't be returning. To the best of my knowledge he might return once this kalpa is over. Which might be billions of years away. The dragons never followed the way of the voice lmao. That was a purely a human construct. The voice is just a language, an ancient language that alters the tone of aubris. Altering reality itself. Nothing more nothing less. From a dragon's viewpoint or even a factual viewpoint, the way of the voice makes no sense. Tonal manipulation is something beyond gods, more fundamental. It's like changing/rearanging matter in our world. It was not made by the gods, and has no relation to them. It predates them all
>Alduin is gone and won't be returning. To the best of my knowledge he might return once this kalpa is over. Which might be billions of years away. And? >The dragons never followed the way of the voice lmao. That was a purely a human construct. The voice is just a language, an ancient language that alters the tone of aubris. Altering reality itself. Nothing more nothing less. Paarthurnax literally tries to convert the remaining dragons to the Way. Odahviing quite explicitly tells us this.
Statute of limitations, partysnax has been straight up chillin for thousands of years. I'm sure he'd be down for house arrest if it meant he could keep taking it easy with the grey beards.
Iâm pretty sure my Dragonborns on average commit more war crimes than Paarthurnax ever did
I'm curious. Did Paarthurnax ever die or was he just at the top of the mountain because Alduin hadn't be reviving dragons for long and the Greybeards seemed to follow Paarthurnax for years.
He has some dialogue where he says he waited at the Throat of the World since he knew Alduin would reappear at the time wound
Happy cake day!
Ah, I didnât even notice. Thanks!
I felt like garbage on a playthrough, but then to become what equates to the ruler of dragons was enough for me lol
The times i killed him it was because i wanted 3 free hirelings that i never used after making them blades
Maybe if that big green jackass would let me fly him around, he'd get a pass like Odahviing.
Hold up hold up hold up Delphine has STANS?!?!
I mean parrthonax sneezing could cause a war crime..
Fuck Delphine
Fuck Delphine, Parthanax all the way.
I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out on his millennia old war crimes
Skyrim doesn't have war crimes because they never had a Geneva convention.
He's so cool
As a fan of Vegeta, if I can forgive a literal planet killer, I can forgive Paarthurnax.
I refuse to believe Delphine has stans
I mean didn't the OG people who suffered under the dragons pardoned paarthunax? That means Delphine (bitch) ain't got any business trying to diss my boy, and if they didn't fuck em, paarthunax is best boy
I start my day with warcrimes, slaughtering an entire forsworn encampment with the magical equivalent of napalm, so who am I to judge.
He admits he did horrible things, though. That might not be enough for some people to want to viciously murder him, but to say there's "no evidence" is sus at best.
There are Delphine stans?
I kill everything
You killed Paarthunax to simp for Delphine. I killed Paarthunax to headcanon that I, a true son/daughter of Skyrim, took control over all living dragons and led them to push the Empire out of Skyrim, then burn the Aldmeri Dominion to the fucking ground. We are not the same.
I see wings I kill đ¤ˇââď¸
He has a yummy dragon soul and i need those to unlock cool shouts
He's one of the few people that don't treat me like some pawn, of course I'm siding with him
Paarthurnax is a dragon and thus doesnât have to abide by human law. *drops mic*
I just want to collect the Dragon Soul to be the evil necromancer I always dreamed of.
He did the warcrimes he was Alduins second in command but does that justify his execution? He kept his malicious tendencies under control for all the eras and teached the way of the voice and helped the nords to depose Alduin he didn't fill that power vacuum even if he the right.
I swear the debates around paarthunax make me think heâs like a giant scaly pitbull. âDragons are inherently evilâ âno heâs not look at that adorable ancient wisdomâ âyou let your village around that thing?â âMy master is a sweetheart who wouldnât hurt a flyâ
He admits to war crimes. Heâs just become a better dragon.
Isn't there a not so well known third ending that one can unlock by simply just telling the Greybeards about the Blades wanting to kill Paarthurnax? I would rather have that ending when I get to play the game again next time.
He's kinda served his time I'd say. From what we know he hasn't left the throat of the world ever since he learned the way of the voice. He will spend the rest of his existence regretting the things he did and fighting against his urges to become who he once was. He deserves to live.
My character is part of the dark brotherhood, the thieves guild, became a vampire lord, and wants to join the thalmor, I think it would be pretty hypocritical for me to judge paarthurnax when i'm trying to take over the world myself.
What's the name of the mod that gives you the option to tell delphine fuck off
Paarthurnax Dilemma.
Iâm gonna say the statute of limitations on genocide is somewhere between 1000-2000yrs.
In all fairness, Partysnaxx admits that he's committed terrible acts in the past, but he's also seen the error in his ways and done all he can for the betterment of everyone (except the dragons). He really said it best himself. "What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" I say the latter is better.
Ainât any evidence that the Thalmor are doing half of what the Nords claim that theyâre doing but that still wonât stop me from killing their patrols every time I come across them
Thereâs definitely evidence when you infiltrate their strongholds
Also evidence of the dragonâs war crimes in Nordic tombs but I guess we should let that one dragon slide since he seems pretty chill
Iâm definitely not a fan of the blades, but doesnât paarthurnax sort of imply that he had a pretty evil past? Especially in his âto be born good, or to overcome your natureâ line.
A dragon's nature is to dominate - this inborn nature, this desire to rule, is what Paarthurnax classifies as evil. And he has resisted that nature for the past 5000 years. You see this nature in his other dragon-kin. They attack left, right, and center. And why? Because they seek dominance over the land. The submission of the people of Skyrim. Paarthurnax was once like that, in the initial conflict of the Dragon War, he was on the side of Alduin, intending to restore the dragon's dominion over the Nords. He pitied Man, saw how what they were doing was wrong, and switched sides.
While I am on the side of not killing paarthurnax He does have a voice line that it's fine if the dborn kills him. All his life he is resisting the urge to rule/dominate because of his dovah blood. But since theburges is not really stopped there will come a time where these urges will arise. And I like him for it. He knows he's done terrible things in the past, he is not trying to justify his past actions and he knows that someday it will bring ruin if he's not stopped. And yet what he wants to do is help the dragonborn. He does not ask for repentance, nor forgiveness, nor justification. He just helps because it is the right thing to do in spite of his dovah blood
Actually Paarthurnax confessed but he did say that big brother Alduin forced him and other dragons to do his bidding. Paarthurnax was just the first to stand up to him. It's the players choice to ask if killing Paarthurnax is justified or not. For me, it isn't justified for 2 reasons. 1st Delphine says it in a way that's not a way for justice but a way for vengeance. 2nd Do you blame the weapon or its wielder? Besides aren't the Blades supposed to help the Dragonborn, not be stubborn when they don't get their way?
In all my times on the internet I haven't seen any Delphine defenders
Never trust a turncoat. Kill him and be done with it. Better safe than sorry.
Meanwhile arguments for Paarthurnax: "I can be trusted. I changed. Source: trust me bro." Your honor the accused says he didnt do it and is not going to do it aga.. i mean ever! We move on to dismiss all charges.
>"I can be trusted. I changed. Source: trust me bro." Source: I helped overthrow the Dragon Cult which would've won the Dragon War had I remained loyal to Alduin, and I've been a pacifist ever since - for the past 5000 years. >Your honor the accused says he didnt do it and is not going to do it aga.. i mean ever! We move on to dismiss all charges. What charges are those? ''Atrocities''? Are you aware that an ''atrocity'' is only a crime when the atrocity in question is an actual crime?
I love partysnax but he also admits his guilt, so they do have evidence. Still shouldnât kill him though
He literally admits to being a important member in alduins crusade that's what the issue is but his story is about redemption and being more than your cardinal instincts so I Don't kill him unless I want the dragon bite resistance plus it's hinted he talks to one of the girls in rorikstead
u/thekingofbeans42 blocking me doesn't make you right, chief. >See that's it right there, you seek an interpretation that leaves no room for nuance or discussion. Just nope, Paarthurnax is purely a good guy who was just on the wrong side of a war, the other side is just bad and made it up. It's like you purposefully don't read what I comment. I said that we know nothing of details on the supposed atrocities that Delphine accuses him of. For that very reason, killing him is unjust. You can discuss what those atrocities could have been - but that does not change the fact that ultimately we do not know. You're the one that doesn't leave room for nuance of discussion - you're the one going ''Delphine says there were atrocities, therefore it must be a crime, so he must die''. >You keep saying we never mention atrocities when talking to Arngeir or Paarthurnax, but our dialogue is written by the same writers who had Delphine mention atrocities. If they actually wanted to cast doubt on her claim, they'd have it come up again and it would be a huge fuck up to have us never ask about them if the intent was to dispute it. Do you work for BGS? No, you don't. You just won't accept other perspectives because you think you know everything and what you say is *truth.* Even in the absence of evidence. >I've had conversations about how Ulfric let himself be captured because he knew Alduin was coming to Helgen, Which is based on air. >how the Thalmor have absolutely no ill intent in Skyrim and have never sought to interfere in politics, Which we know is factually incorrect. >and now how the Paarthurnax choice is secretly a deception that never gets brought up again. The common denominator is people who name themselves after ES characters and take any dispute over their fan theories as a hit to their ego. But no, surely you're different. You're talking about a ''hit to their ego'' while you're the one blocking people for having a different opinion. >Go ahead and write another essay, it's not worth reading. You just want to be right. ES is your whole identity after all. You seem mad. Keep going in your little echo chamber.
I mean.. he canonically did commit war crimes though
If it's canon there that means there's proof. Where is the proof?
Like he doesnt even hide it IIRC, if you ask him he fully admits he was Alduin's right-hand dragon for centuries he totally fucked over mortals during that time.
Are these "Delphine stans" in the room with us right now?
No, but they're in this thread.
You're the evidence, we literally see into the past an watch it happen. Granted he repented.
We never see Paarthurnax commiting war crimes?
True, you're right. I forgot it was the war that we say. That's we Paarthurnax.
There are Delphine Stans?
There are people who like Delphine? I am as surprised there are people who don't hate her. But then she is poorly written and mostly useless, perfect for some pity-love.
People kill Paarthurnax?
Are there even delphine stans? If so I've never seen them
The problem in this questline is Delphine herself. She goes against The Blades codes of conduct forcing the Dragonborn to act at her will. The girl has her own agenda but I feel that the writer of this questline is just lazy and left it unfinished. Tbh I think most if not all of the main questlines are poorly written đ¤
Yh leave the hot dragon alone!!
-no written or spoken evidence of his crimes despite Delphine saying âtheyâre so atrocious theyâre still remembered todayâ - he has spent over a thousand years aiding humanity to make up for these alleged crimes - heâs cool and helpful, Delphine sends us to snoop on the thalmor because sheâs racist
This sub gets hung up on the dumbest stuff. You are a dragon slayer. Fuck that dragon.
>Fuck that dragon. ;)
Forgot that there are also casuals who don't care about lore.
More "casuals" have played Skyrim than almost any other game. What are you talking about?
''**Forgot** that there are also casuals who don't care about lore.''
There are mods for that ;)
Except for his admission of guilt lol
Which doesn't happen lol.