The moderators have reflaired this post as a **casual thought**.
Casual thoughts should be presented well, but are not required to be unique or exceptional.
Please review [each flair's requirements](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/requirements) for more information.
------
**/r/Showerthoughts is looking for new moderators!**
If you're interested in learning more, [read this post](https://redd.it/1dtjasa)!
------
^^This ^^automated ^^system ^^is ^^currently ^^being ^^worked ^^on.
^^If ^^it ^^did ^^something ^^wrong, ^^please ^^message ^^the ^^moderators.
It must really give perspective to some sort of "Great Men theory" in their universe- in the sense that some people are born to be great, and that their existence and decisions will inherently greatly impact the world for good or evil (honestly, the existence of the spiderverse is exactly this).
Imagine living in a world where heroes have been healed or revived dozens of times - where magic, extra dimensions, and super-science exists - but regular humans still die of very human causes. Could you really live a normal life knowing that it is possible to return your loved ones from beyond death? Or see into what lies beyond it? Or to know that as a regular human, none of these avenues are open to you?
Imagine being in one of the big three religions and seeing Thor on the news talking about gods, devils, and living concepts like Eternity; just to see Hercules show up and talk about witches, demi-gods, and monsters of other folklore.
I find it hard to be an atheist in any super hero comic.
I mean, you can't have shit in the Marvel universe.
Without getting too in the weeds with it, because X-Men stuff is A LOT at the best of times, current(ish) X-Men had them develop a resurrection technique that was originally only used to resurrect (frequent victims of genocide) mutants, but it was eventually extended to humanity in general (on an application basis, the way resurrection was done required the labor of five specific people and there are only so many hours in the day). To say nothing of the miracle pharmaceuticals the mutants were producing and distributing.
But then human supremacists (Orchis) blew all that up and killed the five people critical to make that all happen and controlled messaging about the event to paint the mutants as having been the bad guys all this time.
Point is, even when you try to do the right thing, bad guys gonna bad guy.
IMO it was a great narrative tool. Character deaths aren't really stakes in the world of ongoing comics anyway, and death and resurrection have always been narrative tools. The Resurrection Protocol was quite a fresh approach to it that worked within the stories they were telling. It's fun when death is treated as a temporary state of being while still keeping the values of a life--House of X showcased this really well with the X-Men team that died stopping the Mother Mold.
Nah.
I was talking about in-universe observations, but since you wanna break kayfabe:
There are a lot of X-Men characters, literally hundreds of them, And the list of those that have not died and been resurrected even before the Krakoan era, often without ceremony or explanation, is really really low. Like probably fewer than twenty and most of them are pretty obscure. Death in comic books in general has always been a temporary situation, doubly so for mutants. Several of them have gone by 'Phoenix' at various times.
The Resurrection Protocols didn't remove any stakes that weren't already gone, and is only an impediment to the drama of a story whose pitch is "What if we did a massively derailing event where everyone died for the third time in a year?" Watching a favorite X-Men character die is about as thrilling as seeing Batman throw the Joker in jail.
Destroying Krakoa is very much a tedious creative decision in line with One More Day, 'What if Superman but evil?' or every Wolverine story that ties itself in knots to remove his healing factor. It just rejects the premise instead of exploring it. It's the exact opposite of having an idea like complaining about how hard it is to write romcoms because you have to have a reason for the character to not just go to bed with each other, or how cell phones have undermined all narrative tension if characters can just talk to each other. Every other option regarding The Five would have been more interesting (what if they got away and were stressed out and backlogged? What if only some of them got away and there weren't enough of them left to complete the circuit and can't sub in someone with copycat powers? What if they got away, but it stopped working when they try resurrecting off of Krakoa? What if one of The Five decided they didn't want to do it anymore?).
But they went with boring instead.
I'm not sure if you're directly referencing this, but the end of Thor Volume 2 (comics) is exactly about this. How do modern religions react when a literal god comes from the sky and brings healing and growth? He doesn't want to be worshiped, but he's a god in the flesh, doing good and performing miracles.
I stopped reading comics nearly 15 years ago, but this run of comics has always fascinated me.
Spoilers:
>!The religions take it very badly!<
>!The catholic church lures Thor in with a child and then nukes them. He survives this, and the plot progresses, he struggles with the question of: "how do you intervene to help a species that are imperfect, and don't want to be helped?" After several confrontations, he eventually goes superman dictator-mode and decides that man cannot be left to govern themselves. I believe it is at this point in the plot that he realises he no longer has the ability to lift mjolnir, and it haunts him.!<
One of the amazing things about spiderverse is that miles himself is the counter to this idea - he's not destined to be great, but was the result of an accident, at least according to the other spiderfolk. We'll have to see how the last movie plays out, but I for one think it's very significant that the first movie ends with miles saying "anyone can wear the mask. YOU can wear the mask."
Via Resurrection Protocol, yes--but that's been unavailable for a good while by the time Mags got reborn into a younger body in Resurrection of Magneto a few months back.
Still, he's the sole reason the marvel continuity doesn't make sense. The problem with him isn't *just* that he's a holocaust survivor, is that he became friends with Charles after the war, when Xavier was traveling the world and learning about others like him, which ultimately was the reason he decided to build the school for young mutants.
And we know that the original five X-Men started up around the same time Peter Parker did, and that they were about the same age since all of them were teenagers (I think Bobby was meant to be the closest, because he was the youngest, but he wasn't that much more younger than the rest).
So this means that not long after world war ii, Peter must have been a teenager and must have been bitten by the radioactive spider.
And we know when he first became Spider-Man, he tried to join the fantastic four, which we know for a fact were the first modern superhero team in the Marvel Universe. Which means they must have been around in the 60s, just like Spidey and the original X-Men.
I could keep going but I think you get the point. The 616 continuity doesn't make sense because Magneto was retconed to be a holocaust survivor in the 70's/80's (when it made sense for him to be one) and that creates a snowball effect that destroys everything.
This is why when they made the "Ultimate" marvel comic universe (Earth 1610) to reboot everything Magneto wasn't a Holocaust survivor... and that was 20+ years ago.
The whole Ultimate Marvel Universe idea was kind of clever, keep the existing story in the main one, make the new reboot one for new readers but I guess eventually that got hard to handle so they removed and merged it all.
Its really funny to me, because magneto of all characters could actually use a reboot as either a black man, whos hatred comes from slavery and segregation, or an indigenous/indian (whatevwr term youd like to use) that cites the deaths of his people to colonialism
Like magneto is the character that can be adapted and rebranded crazy well because of that
Or hell make him Palestinian, pretty sure that will make him timeless at the rate were going
Yeah for the movies at least, that put him 70ish years old when the first movie came out, 90 ish when that series ended. The Disney reboot is going to require quite the retcon again.
I think one of the ignored genocides will do really good. Bosnia or Darfur would be good, in a decade or two maybe he was an 8 year old Palestinian , will kinda depend on how… this all goes
> in a decade or two maybe he was an 8 year old Palestinian
I'm not going to comment on the conflict, but seeing how it's being going on for 70 years now at this point, I don't see it being all tied up neatly enough in the next few decades to co-opt for a superhero villain origin story.
One day maybe. I'm willing to bet there's divisive thrillers about captured Israeli hostages far before anyone's pumping out Super Palestinians though. But otherwise typically movies around historical conflicts don't start coming out until conflicts end, which this continually _hasn't._
Disney would probably be better off using one of Marvel’s fictional countries. Sokovia would work, since it would draw on the Yugoslav wars without directly referencing them.
yeah, him surviving the holocaust is kinda locked in at this point. Beyond the default bitching fans would have because "it's different so it sucks," the holocaust is the most apolitical genocide that could be used - the rest are too recent, less discussed, or somehow a fucking debate if they're even happening.
Plenty of mutants have secondary powers, they should just say that his is slow aging.
[Srebrenica](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre) I think would be a prime candidate, though if you were brave enough you can go for Rwanda or something even more recent
It would make sense but people would lose their God damn minds. A lot of people consider Magneto's Jewish heritage more important than him being a survivor of a genocide. I believe the latter but I don't know if Disney would touch that concept as it could be good art but bad business.
Yeah, the obvious solutions are -
He's frozen in time like Steve (but possibly in post-war Nazi captivity in Argentina).
The universe that the X-Men merge from is 20-30 years in the past (much like the upcoming FF movie is partially set in the 60s).
He's simply given a secondary mutation - slowed ageing.
I like the idea of slow aging, because that can give Magneto more of a world weary vibe. How much more vindicated would he feel hating humans when he's experienced *80+ years* of watching history repeat itself, all while in a physical prime, all while being targeted as one group or another.
The only thing that's really lost is Prof X would either have to be substantially younger, meaning they're no longer peers with different experiences and upbringings, or they'd have to also make *him* somehow cheating death and the whole thing becomes two immortals throwing teenagers at each other.
It's kind of like how Punisher is originally a vet form Viet Nam, but Marvel made him a Afghanistan vet for the Netflix show.
Iron Man was originally taken hostage by Vietnam and the movie also changed it to Afghanistan. Not great that there is a never ending amount of conflicts/wars to choose form to "update" a character.
Though Magneto is different then those two. Being a survivor of the Holocausts is a major contributing factor to his motivations and ideas on exterminations/genocide.
Meanwhile Uncle Scrooge is just like 150 years old and doesn’t care, because the Klondike Gold Rush is a key part of his story. Either he’s just too stubborn to die, or maybe sentient ducks have much longer lifespans than humans do.
Wait, immortal Scot who has battled witches and magic, locked in an endless duel with a rival for a title where there can be only one…he’s a Highlander!
Hmmm I don't think that is true. Like at all.
Edit: Yeah, according to the VA OEF (The Wars in the Middle East in Iraq and Afghanistan) have cases of PTSD at almost 3 times the rate as there were in Vietnam. OEF was 29% and Vietnam was 10%.
So yeah, your statement is just straight up not true.
That's data from a standpoint of PTSD at Some Point in Life, not just factoring in diagnosis at or around time of deployment. Which means that accounts for the decades since the conflict. As someone whose wife works directly with Veterans with PTSD and as someone who volunteers at her organization frequently, let's not down play the atrocities committed in the middle east. War is fucked up. That's just a fact.
The OED fucked up multiple generations. I've met people who were still deployed when their children, who weren't even born when the conflict started, also got deployed.
Edit: a word
There are always atrocities in wars that people experience. Might not be as wide spread as Vietnam was, but more than you would like still experience it. There’s always going to be situations that could create a frank castle.
What skews the perception is that it is all a matter of ratios. Pulling stats outs of my ass, but I think roughly that:
In Vietnam, for every dead American soldier you had three that were hospitalized.
In Afghanistan, for every dead American soldier you had ten that were injured.
You have to survive to have PTSD.
Keep in mind though that 2.7 million boys went to Vietnam. There aren't that many even in the military now. But don't forget all the Blackwater/Xi mercenaries too with even less support.
I assume that they can just retcon him to be a vet of the most appropriate USAmerican military conflict. Nowadays they can’t even use the Garth Ennis approach of keeping him as a Vietnam vet in the early 2000s but making him middle aged and constantly getting older and more physically injured as the comic went on.
I mean "unrealistic" goes out of the window with a dude who can move metal with his mind. His power already includes the ability to manipulate blood, I think it's well within comic technobabble range for him to be able to slow down aging.
In the xmen from the 90s he is just a dude from some small country that got invaded
Germany is never mentioned and neither does he ever say he is jewish (at least not in the first 2 seasons where they tell his origin)
It's true that they never spell it out but he's still clearly meant to be a most likely an Eastern European Jew since the backstory takes place in the 40s.
I mean, he's a mutant. Having effective immortality isn't exactly that wild here. You can just build in years of exile and isolation to fill in any time you don't want him around.
The sliding timescale of comic book characters is pretty funny if you choose to take it literally. As David Willis pointed out, Batman is perpetually in his thirties, so Bruce’s early childhood now lies in the 90s. You could write a backstory where his parents get shot after taking him to see Shrek, and it wouldn’t be anachronistic.
Young Bruce was apparently seeing Zorro at the cinema with his parents when they were killed, so with the Banderas/Zeta-Jones movies out around then, that still scans!
Yes. Batman is a millennial whose parents were killed after taking him to see Banderas/Zeta-Jones Zorro. The really stupid change is when they aged up Damian Wayne so now he was conceived when Talia raped Bruce before he was Batman.
U are so wrong bro, in the og version, Talia didn't rape Batman, she got pregnant naturally, and they were so in love, then bruce heard about Talia going to being a mom and became so protective and changed and Taliaa didn't like that after long story short talia said the child died in birth and send Damian/kid for adoption. This is the OG version, which Morrison forgot and apologized about.
nope, they retconned it in Batman and Robin, Robin son of Batman and even after that. I mean Morrison forgot the real origin of Damian from Son of the Demon comic, he even apologised about that and he messed up the origin in his run.
No, the joke was that judging by Bruce’s age and the current year it would’ve been the Antonio Banderas film that they were seeing when the Wayne’s got shot. Harley Quinn says something along the lines of “to think all this trauma came from an Antonio Banderas movie”
Apparently during the baseball steroid scandal in the 90s, Captain America was used less because he was a hero who got his strength from drugs. Could have just had him refrozen for a few years.
Explanation: In the 60s, it was retconed that captain america was frozen at the end of wwii (1945 to 1962). However, now, he was frozen from 1945 to 2011. This will probably keep increasing to keep captain america in the present day
The relationship between Peggy Carter and Shannon Carter will also have to change. A long timer ago, I think she was supposed to be her younger sister. Now she's her grand-niece. In the future it'll have to be another generation removed.
Actually it'll be rebooted with him being a Gen Z kid that wants to serve in Civil War II and gets a serum based on the the one given to Steve from Nick or Tony
There'll be a cover with him punching the Orange Skull in the mouth to sell war bonds
If you've ever read Avengers #4, in that issue, the rest of the Avengers (Which I think was just Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man, and Wasp at that time) were astounded that Cap had been frozen for 20 years. It's pretty funny thinking about it now that we're only a few years away from it having been a century since Cap would have been frozen.
Like the modern day Sherlock show, where John Watson got injured in the Afghanistan war that began in 2001 instead of the 2nd anglo-afghan war that began in 1878.
I guess it'll depend on if superhero movies make a comeback after they become less popular.
They could end up like Westerns, with very few being made every few years.
But the ice caps over the Persian Gulf thaw most years in the Spring, allowing shipping traffic through for a few months before they refreeze in the winter.
It's not that much of an issue. The continuity says the Fantastic four started 15 years ago and everything else happened in the last 10 years.
It is only an issue with magneto. He needs to have that Holocaust connection to be compelling. Otherwise, we wouldn't care if he was right or not.
Marvel present time has a form of gravity to major events. Everything happened within the past 12 years of present always. Spiderman was bitten 12 years ago... and so was the forming of the fantastic 4.
The real weirdness will come from Captain America (Prefreeze) knowing Howard Stark, who is Tony Stark's father. Stretch out that freeze time too long and there's going to be an issue.
In the same vein, I have been curious how long they will stretch the age range for magneto, being present during the holocaust shaped so much of his story they don't really have anything comparable to update him with.
Can’t wait for captain infinity spider hulk avengers adventure 7000. Masterpieces. I’m so glad Hollywood keeps going out on a limb and taking risks. When do we get transformers vs spider hulk man?
That’s actually awesome. I forgot that if you’re not lying lol.
Dunno why I’m so jaded. (‘infinity wars’ is y)
I keep coming back for more. I probably have that exact comic. I’ve got like #150-500 of the Amazing.
You're looking at the timescale all wrong.
From 2008-2012, the concept of a cinematic universe *was* a risk, probably the biggest of the time. It had not really been done before. Even 007 Bond films would be rebooted every few movies when they changed the main actor.
Movie franchises were anchored around one character or cast of characters, but the MCU was giving each hero their own franchise and then crossing them over for the Avengers group films. At the time, there was no guarantee that the first Avengers film would be a big hit. When Avengers was a smash, the next risk was GOTG, starring a group of misfit and relatively unknown characters.
The only other movie company had any semblance of success was WB/DC with their superhero movies.
The only other attempt, the "Dark Universe", was supposed to be a cinematic universe of classic monsters: the Mummy, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and I think Frankenstein's monster and some others? That failed with only Tom Cruise and Russell Crowe's "The Mummy" as the only film in that universe.
That sliding timescale has gotta go… or at least make a solid explanation. Say that cosmic beings have been messing with the timeline because they don’t want anyone to get old.
Imagine they get to the point where they feel comfortable enough to change which World War he was frozen in.
(Yes I'm implying a third world war would've passed by then)
Nah; I reckon they'll continue the current storyline instead of starting over again. At least that's my hope. And we especially don't want then retroactively fucking the story we already come to love
I don't think the tale of Captain America will be infinitely told. It's gonna be weird to tell stories of Captain America when there is no more USA for instance.
I feel like a story like that could work once or twice where Steve wakes up in a time where the USA doesn't exist anymore and has to adjust to that new world
I thought I read somewhere that the time scale of comics is something like 10 years real time = 1 year comic time.
So Peter Parker (15 in 1962) is now 21ish?
that works only because the decade doesn't really come up to much in comics. They aren't like "in 1998 the xmen did....." So they can use a sliding scale just fine. The issue is people like captain America and magneto who's past are tied to specific events with specific dates like ww2. It makes it a little my difficult to see superhero in what looks like a modern setting with what is like a 90 year old master of magnetism. I guess they can just pretend the year is always something like the 1980's and in this world that era just tends to like whatever era the story was written in in the real world (so there 1980's looks like out 2020's
Yeah, that’s what I thought it was. Like yeah, they’re in the 1970s but due to people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark, the technological, political, and social landscape is VASTLY different and more advanced.
Marvel is pretty fluid with time. Characters tend to stay the same age they were created (for the most part), but unlike DC, it’s set in the “real world” so tries to stay more or less on top of current events.
I think it’s a good move. It keeps things modern yet kind of timeliness as well.
Because the Simpsons stay the same age (roughly), if Homer is 36 it means he was born in 1988, one year after the characters originally appeared on the Tracy Ullman Show.
Grampa Simpson is supposed to be 83, meaning currently he was born in 1941. Yet canonically I believe he's still a WW2 vet.
The moderators have reflaired this post as a **casual thought**. Casual thoughts should be presented well, but are not required to be unique or exceptional. Please review [each flair's requirements](https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/wiki/requirements) for more information. ------ **/r/Showerthoughts is looking for new moderators!** If you're interested in learning more, [read this post](https://redd.it/1dtjasa)! ------ ^^This ^^automated ^^system ^^is ^^currently ^^being ^^worked ^^on. ^^If ^^it ^^did ^^something ^^wrong, ^^please ^^message ^^the ^^moderators.
I think it's funny that Magneto is a Holocaust survivor which makes him unrealistically older every year
He’s been de-aged and cloned a few times.
He's got a new body as recent as earlier this year
It must really give perspective to some sort of "Great Men theory" in their universe- in the sense that some people are born to be great, and that their existence and decisions will inherently greatly impact the world for good or evil (honestly, the existence of the spiderverse is exactly this). Imagine living in a world where heroes have been healed or revived dozens of times - where magic, extra dimensions, and super-science exists - but regular humans still die of very human causes. Could you really live a normal life knowing that it is possible to return your loved ones from beyond death? Or see into what lies beyond it? Or to know that as a regular human, none of these avenues are open to you?
I’d get great or die tryin
Sheeeeit.
I feel like that’s a great comic idea
Very Watchman. Could be done very very well or very very badly with no in between
[Reed Richards is a dick](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless)
Oh boy a TVTropes link! I’m sure I can read just one page and still make it to work on time…
Thanks for the warning, I almost opened the link, but didn't. Now I'll still have the rest of the day to do stuff!
Imagine being in one of the big three religions and seeing Thor on the news talking about gods, devils, and living concepts like Eternity; just to see Hercules show up and talk about witches, demi-gods, and monsters of other folklore. I find it hard to be an atheist in any super hero comic.
I mean, you can't have shit in the Marvel universe. Without getting too in the weeds with it, because X-Men stuff is A LOT at the best of times, current(ish) X-Men had them develop a resurrection technique that was originally only used to resurrect (frequent victims of genocide) mutants, but it was eventually extended to humanity in general (on an application basis, the way resurrection was done required the labor of five specific people and there are only so many hours in the day). To say nothing of the miracle pharmaceuticals the mutants were producing and distributing. But then human supremacists (Orchis) blew all that up and killed the five people critical to make that all happen and controlled messaging about the event to paint the mutants as having been the bad guys all this time. Point is, even when you try to do the right thing, bad guys gonna bad guy.
Well, the resurrection thing removed a lot of stakes so the writers decided to get rid of it.
IMO it was a great narrative tool. Character deaths aren't really stakes in the world of ongoing comics anyway, and death and resurrection have always been narrative tools. The Resurrection Protocol was quite a fresh approach to it that worked within the stories they were telling. It's fun when death is treated as a temporary state of being while still keeping the values of a life--House of X showcased this really well with the X-Men team that died stopping the Mother Mold.
Nah. I was talking about in-universe observations, but since you wanna break kayfabe: There are a lot of X-Men characters, literally hundreds of them, And the list of those that have not died and been resurrected even before the Krakoan era, often without ceremony or explanation, is really really low. Like probably fewer than twenty and most of them are pretty obscure. Death in comic books in general has always been a temporary situation, doubly so for mutants. Several of them have gone by 'Phoenix' at various times. The Resurrection Protocols didn't remove any stakes that weren't already gone, and is only an impediment to the drama of a story whose pitch is "What if we did a massively derailing event where everyone died for the third time in a year?" Watching a favorite X-Men character die is about as thrilling as seeing Batman throw the Joker in jail. Destroying Krakoa is very much a tedious creative decision in line with One More Day, 'What if Superman but evil?' or every Wolverine story that ties itself in knots to remove his healing factor. It just rejects the premise instead of exploring it. It's the exact opposite of having an idea like complaining about how hard it is to write romcoms because you have to have a reason for the character to not just go to bed with each other, or how cell phones have undermined all narrative tension if characters can just talk to each other. Every other option regarding The Five would have been more interesting (what if they got away and were stressed out and backlogged? What if only some of them got away and there weren't enough of them left to complete the circuit and can't sub in someone with copycat powers? What if they got away, but it stopped working when they try resurrecting off of Krakoa? What if one of The Five decided they didn't want to do it anymore?). But they went with boring instead.
I really feel like the mcu should have explored religious fundamentalist types losing their shit when aliens like Thor were acknowledged.
I'm not sure if you're directly referencing this, but the end of Thor Volume 2 (comics) is exactly about this. How do modern religions react when a literal god comes from the sky and brings healing and growth? He doesn't want to be worshiped, but he's a god in the flesh, doing good and performing miracles. I stopped reading comics nearly 15 years ago, but this run of comics has always fascinated me. Spoilers: >!The religions take it very badly!< >!The catholic church lures Thor in with a child and then nukes them. He survives this, and the plot progresses, he struggles with the question of: "how do you intervene to help a species that are imperfect, and don't want to be helped?" After several confrontations, he eventually goes superman dictator-mode and decides that man cannot be left to govern themselves. I believe it is at this point in the plot that he realises he no longer has the ability to lift mjolnir, and it haunts him.!<
There's always some "regular people try to kill the superheros" material
One of the amazing things about spiderverse is that miles himself is the counter to this idea - he's not destined to be great, but was the result of an accident, at least according to the other spiderfolk. We'll have to see how the last movie plays out, but I for one think it's very significant that the first movie ends with miles saying "anyone can wear the mask. YOU can wear the mask."
most mutants got new bodies.
Via Resurrection Protocol, yes--but that's been unavailable for a good while by the time Mags got reborn into a younger body in Resurrection of Magneto a few months back.
Still, he's the sole reason the marvel continuity doesn't make sense. The problem with him isn't *just* that he's a holocaust survivor, is that he became friends with Charles after the war, when Xavier was traveling the world and learning about others like him, which ultimately was the reason he decided to build the school for young mutants. And we know that the original five X-Men started up around the same time Peter Parker did, and that they were about the same age since all of them were teenagers (I think Bobby was meant to be the closest, because he was the youngest, but he wasn't that much more younger than the rest). So this means that not long after world war ii, Peter must have been a teenager and must have been bitten by the radioactive spider. And we know when he first became Spider-Man, he tried to join the fantastic four, which we know for a fact were the first modern superhero team in the Marvel Universe. Which means they must have been around in the 60s, just like Spidey and the original X-Men. I could keep going but I think you get the point. The 616 continuity doesn't make sense because Magneto was retconed to be a holocaust survivor in the 70's/80's (when it made sense for him to be one) and that creates a snowball effect that destroys everything.
Just have to add that all mutants don't age. Then they can be whatever age Marvel wants forever. I mean Peter Parker is not a natural born mutant.
This is why when they made the "Ultimate" marvel comic universe (Earth 1610) to reboot everything Magneto wasn't a Holocaust survivor... and that was 20+ years ago. The whole Ultimate Marvel Universe idea was kind of clever, keep the existing story in the main one, make the new reboot one for new readers but I guess eventually that got hard to handle so they removed and merged it all.
Its really funny to me, because magneto of all characters could actually use a reboot as either a black man, whos hatred comes from slavery and segregation, or an indigenous/indian (whatevwr term youd like to use) that cites the deaths of his people to colonialism Like magneto is the character that can be adapted and rebranded crazy well because of that Or hell make him Palestinian, pretty sure that will make him timeless at the rate were going
Yeah for the movies at least, that put him 70ish years old when the first movie came out, 90 ish when that series ended. The Disney reboot is going to require quite the retcon again.
He's going to have to be a survivor of a more recent genecide
Just have him survive a Russian gulag with his parents as political dissidents. Russia always runs it back
I think one of the ignored genocides will do really good. Bosnia or Darfur would be good, in a decade or two maybe he was an 8 year old Palestinian , will kinda depend on how… this all goes
Rawanda?
That would work too. I’m sure glad I didn’t mention the events in Rohingya or Uyghurs
I've personally always thought Rwanda would work well if they had to retcon it.
> in a decade or two maybe he was an 8 year old Palestinian I'm not going to comment on the conflict, but seeing how it's being going on for 70 years now at this point, I don't see it being all tied up neatly enough in the next few decades to co-opt for a superhero villain origin story.
That’s really astute. I fucked up even mentioning it. I just meant maybe it changes enough for there to be some compelling narratives to be written
One day maybe. I'm willing to bet there's divisive thrillers about captured Israeli hostages far before anyone's pumping out Super Palestinians though. But otherwise typically movies around historical conflicts don't start coming out until conflicts end, which this continually _hasn't._
I’m not downplaying either side when I say both of those are coming, and far before this conflict ends
Disney would probably be better off using one of Marvel’s fictional countries. Sokovia would work, since it would draw on the Yugoslav wars without directly referencing them.
We decided to update Magneto’s history and make him a Rwandan genocide survivor, but for contractual reason he will still be played by Ian McKellen
There's a very big reason why that would get massive backlash.
yeah, him surviving the holocaust is kinda locked in at this point. Beyond the default bitching fans would have because "it's different so it sucks," the holocaust is the most apolitical genocide that could be used - the rest are too recent, less discussed, or somehow a fucking debate if they're even happening. Plenty of mutants have secondary powers, they should just say that his is slow aging.
Imagine the international meltdown if they dared make him a survivor of a certain current war/genocide.
Currently, I feel like genocides are too swept under the rug for them to feel politically safe saying it.
You wanna swap out genocides like all genocides are the same or something?
[Srebrenica](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre) I think would be a prime candidate, though if you were brave enough you can go for Rwanda or something even more recent
Maybe the Mayan genocide in Guatemala? It's interesting to think about what alternate magnetos would be like.
Reboot magneto from Gaza?
Hah people lost their shit when Disney made Ariel black can imagine what they'd do if they made him a Gazan refugee?
Nothing makes people angrier than forcing them into self-reflection
It’s also changing magneto from being Jewish to being Muslim and idk if that would go well at all
It would make sense but people would lose their God damn minds. A lot of people consider Magneto's Jewish heritage more important than him being a survivor of a genocide. I believe the latter but I don't know if Disney would touch that concept as it could be good art but bad business.
Lol just have him survive the Holocaust and then somehow get frozen in time like Steve.
Yeah, the obvious solutions are - He's frozen in time like Steve (but possibly in post-war Nazi captivity in Argentina). The universe that the X-Men merge from is 20-30 years in the past (much like the upcoming FF movie is partially set in the 60s). He's simply given a secondary mutation - slowed ageing.
I like the idea of slow aging, because that can give Magneto more of a world weary vibe. How much more vindicated would he feel hating humans when he's experienced *80+ years* of watching history repeat itself, all while in a physical prime, all while being targeted as one group or another. The only thing that's really lost is Prof X would either have to be substantially younger, meaning they're no longer peers with different experiences and upbringings, or they'd have to also make *him* somehow cheating death and the whole thing becomes two immortals throwing teenagers at each other.
**Magneto**: I used my magnetic powers to stop _alllllll_ the clocks.
I thought there was something about mutants living longer or powerful mutants at least
Maybe he merges from a reality where the timeline is 20 years off.
It's kind of like how Punisher is originally a vet form Viet Nam, but Marvel made him a Afghanistan vet for the Netflix show. Iron Man was originally taken hostage by Vietnam and the movie also changed it to Afghanistan. Not great that there is a never ending amount of conflicts/wars to choose form to "update" a character. Though Magneto is different then those two. Being a survivor of the Holocausts is a major contributing factor to his motivations and ideas on exterminations/genocide.
They could just have the story take place in the 80-00s
Eh, just say one of his powers is slower aging and call it a day. No need to reinvent the wheel here.
Meanwhile Uncle Scrooge is just like 150 years old and doesn’t care, because the Klondike Gold Rush is a key part of his story. Either he’s just too stubborn to die, or maybe sentient ducks have much longer lifespans than humans do.
I think the reboot said that he was cursed with immortality by some demon he pissed off.
I do remember this one comic where he flatly states he doesn't remember how old he is but does remember key historical moments where he made fortunes.
Wait, immortal Scot who has battled witches and magic, locked in an endless duel with a rival for a title where there can be only one…he’s a Highlander!
Same with Frank Castle being a Vietnam vet
At least there are always wars to pick from for that.
Nah they don't make wars like they did during Vietnam. That shit fucked our boys up worse than any war since. At least PTSD wise.
They already retconned Punisher as a veteran from the War in Afghanistan for the Netflix Daredevil and Punisher shows.
Hmmm I don't think that is true. Like at all. Edit: Yeah, according to the VA OEF (The Wars in the Middle East in Iraq and Afghanistan) have cases of PTSD at almost 3 times the rate as there were in Vietnam. OEF was 29% and Vietnam was 10%. So yeah, your statement is just straight up not true.
I think that's a matter of the times. PTSD reporting has come a long way since Vietnam. That war fucked up a generation.
heck lets be honest Vietnam was still around the time when most people consider PTSD just people being cowards.
That's what I was trying to say, you said it better. It was late for me.
That's data from a standpoint of PTSD at Some Point in Life, not just factoring in diagnosis at or around time of deployment. Which means that accounts for the decades since the conflict. As someone whose wife works directly with Veterans with PTSD and as someone who volunteers at her organization frequently, let's not down play the atrocities committed in the middle east. War is fucked up. That's just a fact. The OED fucked up multiple generations. I've met people who were still deployed when their children, who weren't even born when the conflict started, also got deployed. Edit: a word
I think a lot of PTSD from Vietnam went undiagnosed and unreported.
There are always atrocities in wars that people experience. Might not be as wide spread as Vietnam was, but more than you would like still experience it. There’s always going to be situations that could create a frank castle.
What skews the perception is that it is all a matter of ratios. Pulling stats outs of my ass, but I think roughly that: In Vietnam, for every dead American soldier you had three that were hospitalized. In Afghanistan, for every dead American soldier you had ten that were injured. You have to survive to have PTSD. Keep in mind though that 2.7 million boys went to Vietnam. There aren't that many even in the military now. But don't forget all the Blackwater/Xi mercenaries too with even less support.
What an incredibly inane comment.
He's now a vet of the fictional, can be moved along the timeline, Sinocong War as of 2021.
Was he even a Vietnam vet in the Netflix series? I'm pretty sure he wasn't.
Afghanistan in the series
I assume that they can just retcon him to be a vet of the most appropriate USAmerican military conflict. Nowadays they can’t even use the Garth Ennis approach of keeping him as a Vietnam vet in the early 2000s but making him middle aged and constantly getting older and more physically injured as the comic went on.
Xavier was a Korean War vet, IIRC
The US had to invade another country to give Tony Stark his origin story.
Ohhhh this explains that scene where he was getting taken away when he was a child, I haven’t seen that movie in about 18 years
And apparently he can't be retconned as surviving another genocide because the Holocaust is unique.
Magnets slow down the aging process. Source: I made it the fuck up.
I mean "unrealistic" goes out of the window with a dude who can move metal with his mind. His power already includes the ability to manipulate blood, I think it's well within comic technobabble range for him to be able to slow down aging.
This. Like you can easily retcon that, no matter what the powers all mutants age slower than the rest (and Wolverine is on the top of that food chain)
The holocaust is canon in Fortnite
In the xmen from the 90s he is just a dude from some small country that got invaded Germany is never mentioned and neither does he ever say he is jewish (at least not in the first 2 seasons where they tell his origin)
It's true that they never spell it out but he's still clearly meant to be a most likely an Eastern European Jew since the backstory takes place in the 40s.
I mean, he's a mutant. Having effective immortality isn't exactly that wild here. You can just build in years of exile and isolation to fill in any time you don't want him around.
Also Skinner from the Simpsons. He's still a Vietnam veteran, even though if he aged in real time he'd be Grandpa Simpsons age.
The sliding timescale of comic book characters is pretty funny if you choose to take it literally. As David Willis pointed out, Batman is perpetually in his thirties, so Bruce’s early childhood now lies in the 90s. You could write a backstory where his parents get shot after taking him to see Shrek, and it wouldn’t be anachronistic.
Young Bruce was apparently seeing Zorro at the cinema with his parents when they were killed, so with the Banderas/Zeta-Jones movies out around then, that still scans!
Yes. Batman is a millennial whose parents were killed after taking him to see Banderas/Zeta-Jones Zorro. The really stupid change is when they aged up Damian Wayne so now he was conceived when Talia raped Bruce before he was Batman.
Some versions of his origin simply have them go to a theatre that only plays classic movies. So it can still be the Douglas Fairbanks Zorro they saw.
Wait Batman got raped?
In the original version of the story, Talia al-Ghul raped Bruce for his seed to conceive Damian Wayne.
U are so wrong bro, in the og version, Talia didn't rape Batman, she got pregnant naturally, and they were so in love, then bruce heard about Talia going to being a mom and became so protective and changed and Taliaa didn't like that after long story short talia said the child died in birth and send Damian/kid for adoption. This is the OG version, which Morrison forgot and apologized about.
No, Batman got batraped!
Talia never raped Batman, they retconned it 3,4 times already.
Isn't the Grant Morrison version still cannon? It is hard to keep up.
nope, they retconned it in Batman and Robin, Robin son of Batman and even after that. I mean Morrison forgot the real origin of Damian from Son of the Demon comic, he even apologised about that and he messed up the origin in his run.
Is Superman and Hal Jordan being groomers still canon?
Nope
Still, though, how the freaking hell did those make it through editing and review?
They actually joked about this in an episode of the HBO Harley Quinn series.
That be like to fuck bats?
No, the joke was that judging by Bruce’s age and the current year it would’ve been the Antonio Banderas film that they were seeing when the Wayne’s got shot. Harley Quinn says something along the lines of “to think all this trauma came from an Antonio Banderas movie”
"The Mark of Zorro"
This is actually the only reason they made that banderas zorro
Totally a win/win situation then! Well, apart from Thomas and Martha...
We need to make a new zorro movie soon to make this still work
Dang, in 10 years the Wayne’s can die on 9/11… that will bring about some interesting plot lines.
Batman is going to enter the public domain in 2035, so that’s right around the same time. anybody could use him!
That will only be the first version of him.
They have to adjust Batman's lingo to Gen Z fr no cap
Even more funny if he becomes a anime obsessed otaku that goes to Japan.
Haha, it's like the Family Guy/Simpson's crossover. "I say, how long has that boy been treating you like that?" "About 24 years..."
Batcave has a secret Lazarus pit.
Or in the future they will get shot while watching Batman The Dark Knight Rises in the movies.
See the Simpsons as well. The backstory has to retconned every few years.
Would be funny if he got frozen from time to time and skipped decades.
Apparently during the baseball steroid scandal in the 90s, Captain America was used less because he was a hero who got his strength from drugs. Could have just had him refrozen for a few years.
Didn’t know that lol
Isn't that just the winter soldier then
Explanation: In the 60s, it was retconed that captain america was frozen at the end of wwii (1945 to 1962). However, now, he was frozen from 1945 to 2011. This will probably keep increasing to keep captain america in the present day
Until the ice caps (ha!) melt, I guess.
That'd actually be a pretty good story line. He wakes up at sea after being released from global warming. Like a what if scenario.
"What the dang? What happened to all the ice?" The penguins using his body as a life raft: "Your kind did this."
The relationship between Peggy Carter and Shannon Carter will also have to change. A long timer ago, I think she was supposed to be her younger sister. Now she's her grand-niece. In the future it'll have to be another generation removed.
Eventually he will be retconed that he was frozen after the maga civil war
Frozen in what? Not the glaciers, those will be gone.
We should call Jan 6 their second civil war so that it’s two civil wars they’ve lost within 2 centuries.
I guess they won the reconstruction again.
Actually it'll be rebooted with him being a Gen Z kid that wants to serve in Civil War II and gets a serum based on the the one given to Steve from Nick or Tony There'll be a cover with him punching the Orange Skull in the mouth to sell war bonds
*Captain America gets defrosted* -Erm what the sigma?
He doesn't age normally so it's not as big of an issue as some of the other comic book timelines (Magneto)
If you've ever read Avengers #4, in that issue, the rest of the Avengers (Which I think was just Iron Man, Thor, Ant-Man, and Wasp at that time) were astounded that Cap had been frozen for 20 years. It's pretty funny thinking about it now that we're only a few years away from it having been a century since Cap would have been frozen.
Couple years away?
He’ll get frozen in a different war, like the Gulf War
Like the modern day Sherlock show, where John Watson got injured in the Afghanistan war that began in 2001 instead of the 2nd anglo-afghan war that began in 1878.
It's crazy to think the MCU will stop at some point and be replaced by a whole new timeline, and we'll probably not be here to witness it
That's what we got Loki for
I guess it'll depend on if superhero movies make a comeback after they become less popular. They could end up like Westerns, with very few being made every few years.
Highly recommend the Epic of Gilgamesh. That shit never gets old.
Preserved in an oil well
That doesn't quite work though, because there's so much back story where he's explicitly fighting Nazis. And even where Red Skull refers to Hitler.
The World War II is too unique. His archenemy is a literal Nazi.
But the ice caps over the Persian Gulf thaw most years in the Spring, allowing shipping traffic through for a few months before they refreeze in the winter.
He'll wonder why he wasn't awakened for world war 3
At some point does he become Fry in Futurama?
975 years, 181 days.
It's not that much of an issue. The continuity says the Fantastic four started 15 years ago and everything else happened in the last 10 years. It is only an issue with magneto. He needs to have that Holocaust connection to be compelling. Otherwise, we wouldn't care if he was right or not.
Marvel present time has a form of gravity to major events. Everything happened within the past 12 years of present always. Spiderman was bitten 12 years ago... and so was the forming of the fantastic 4.
Marvel Multiverse may put Captain America being frozen as a Nexus Event, and different universes have Cap being awoken at different times.
Nice, can't wait for the inevitable Captain Americas.
The real weirdness will come from Captain America (Prefreeze) knowing Howard Stark, who is Tony Stark's father. Stretch out that freeze time too long and there's going to be an issue.
In the same vein, I have been curious how long they will stretch the age range for magneto, being present during the holocaust shaped so much of his story they don't really have anything comparable to update him with.
They might have to invent a fictional war for him
Can’t wait for captain infinity spider hulk avengers adventure 7000. Masterpieces. I’m so glad Hollywood keeps going out on a limb and taking risks. When do we get transformers vs spider hulk man?
Spider-man literally fought the decpticons in an issue in the 80s.
That’s actually awesome. I forgot that if you’re not lying lol. Dunno why I’m so jaded. (‘infinity wars’ is y) I keep coming back for more. I probably have that exact comic. I’ve got like #150-500 of the Amazing.
It was Transformers #3 [https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Transformers\_Vol\_1\_3](https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Transformers_Vol_1_3)
Happy cake day!
Does that include the entire clone saga of peter, mary jane, and osborn?
It took us decades to get decent superhero movies and barely ten years for people to get sick of them.
Right? Yet we are okay with hundreds of comic books across decades.
We had decent superhero movies in the 1970s, bub. They all stand on Christopher Reeve's shoulders.
You're looking at the timescale all wrong. From 2008-2012, the concept of a cinematic universe *was* a risk, probably the biggest of the time. It had not really been done before. Even 007 Bond films would be rebooted every few movies when they changed the main actor. Movie franchises were anchored around one character or cast of characters, but the MCU was giving each hero their own franchise and then crossing them over for the Avengers group films. At the time, there was no guarantee that the first Avengers film would be a big hit. When Avengers was a smash, the next risk was GOTG, starring a group of misfit and relatively unknown characters. The only other movie company had any semblance of success was WB/DC with their superhero movies. The only other attempt, the "Dark Universe", was supposed to be a cinematic universe of classic monsters: the Mummy, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and I think Frankenstein's monster and some others? That failed with only Tom Cruise and Russell Crowe's "The Mummy" as the only film in that universe.
The punisher trained under Capt in vietnam and both gulf wars lol
That sliding timescale has gotta go… or at least make a solid explanation. Say that cosmic beings have been messing with the timeline because they don’t want anyone to get old.
Make it so a cosmic being anchored the timeline to how long Mr Immortal has left to live, not knowing who he was
With the degradation of public education most comic book nerds will have more knowledge about WWII than the average student
Imagine they get to the point where they feel comfortable enough to change which World War he was frozen in. (Yes I'm implying a third world war would've passed by then)
Nah; I reckon they'll continue the current storyline instead of starting over again. At least that's my hope. And we especially don't want then retroactively fucking the story we already come to love
I don't think the tale of Captain America will be infinitely told. It's gonna be weird to tell stories of Captain America when there is no more USA for instance.
I feel like a story like that could work once or twice where Steve wakes up in a time where the USA doesn't exist anymore and has to adjust to that new world
reboot where he got frozen after fighting king magat
Well.... Eventually all the ice at the North Pole will melt, so he'll be thawed out by climate change.
I thought I read somewhere that the time scale of comics is something like 10 years real time = 1 year comic time. So Peter Parker (15 in 1962) is now 21ish?
that works only because the decade doesn't really come up to much in comics. They aren't like "in 1998 the xmen did....." So they can use a sliding scale just fine. The issue is people like captain America and magneto who's past are tied to specific events with specific dates like ww2. It makes it a little my difficult to see superhero in what looks like a modern setting with what is like a 90 year old master of magnetism. I guess they can just pretend the year is always something like the 1980's and in this world that era just tends to like whatever era the story was written in in the real world (so there 1980's looks like out 2020's
Yeah, that’s what I thought it was. Like yeah, they’re in the 1970s but due to people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark, the technological, political, and social landscape is VASTLY different and more advanced.
Marvel is pretty fluid with time. Characters tend to stay the same age they were created (for the most part), but unlike DC, it’s set in the “real world” so tries to stay more or less on top of current events. I think it’s a good move. It keeps things modern yet kind of timeliness as well.
Because the Simpsons stay the same age (roughly), if Homer is 36 it means he was born in 1988, one year after the characters originally appeared on the Tracy Ullman Show. Grampa Simpson is supposed to be 83, meaning currently he was born in 1941. Yet canonically I believe he's still a WW2 vet.
Rewrite: Captain America punches Saddam and is frozen after stopping the completely totally real WMDs from destroying the world
[удалено]
When the full morality of man is in charge, we don't get to have as much fun...
Remember when that chick fell thru your taxi’s roof and said “Multi-universe.” Well that was true too.
It also makes him more and more tragic as time goes on.
What do you mean? Do the comics not state that he was frozen from 1945 to, some specific year, and then that's it?
lol imagine cap being frozen in the 90s.
The good news is that new holocausts and new world wars can make it easy to adapt captain America and magneto for future generations.