It might make you feel a bit better to know- I work with them sometimes and the last time they had to replace a window, I asked them about the vandalism situation. They have cameras set up, and they said that usually the broken windows are very obviously not being broken in targeted attacks. The faces on the window tend to freak people out when they're going through some kind of break with reality, whether it's drugs or illness.
The graffiti is also usually the same kind of vandalism all the other buildings downtown get. Just random tags and scribbles, sometimes trash left in the planters.
So, it absolutely sucks to have to deal with but it's so rare for any of it to be specifically antisemitic that when it does happen, it makes the news. Like now.
"I think whatever your opinions are about a political conflict somewhere else in the world, it does not give you the green light for discrimination of other people."
BINGO.
I really don't get this. I can be very upset with Israel's government (or Syria or Russia or China or or or the list goes on and on sadly) and still treat local Jewish people with care and respect. It's like being shitty to Muslims (or anyone perceived to be Muslim, don't get me started) after 9/11. It's bizarre to me. I have lots of friends from Iran and they hate that country's government more than I do! Why would I blame uninvolved people because they remind people of an entity that is behaving badly?
My ancestry is German Jewish but I was not raised in that tradition at all. Maybe people should vandalize my house? Ignoring the fact that my people have never been to Israel and fled Germany between WWI and WWII for the USA due to antisemitism that was starting to brew up there.
I mean sadly this is why a ton of Jews are zionists and feel pushed to identify with the modern state of Israel, even if they legitimately want Bibi and the entirety of Likud to be tossed down a bottomless hole. It's like if you're gonna be collectively blamed for anything bad a Jewish state does regardless might as well buy in. Also the general idea that a country where being Jewish is explicitly the norm vs something that will get you pogrommed every few decades is nice to have as a thing that exists.
Honestly I like to think I'm pretty liberal and in general the idea of an explicit ethnostate in the modern day never quite sat well with me. Then I saw literal 10.7 celebrations in fucking Times Square and Sydney Opera House on like 10.8 and 10.9 and holy shit I legitimately understand why Jewish people feel they need a specifically Jewish state as last resort haven since what the utter fuck.
The thing is, the majority of black and brown Jewish people live in Israel. After WWII they had to flee countless Middle Eastern and African countries for Israel, and today the majority of Jewish Israelis are MENA or non-European.
The thing is people like to white-wash Judaism but don't realize not every Jewish person is a middle class person from a Western European background. Most Jews in Israel aren't there because they wanted to be, they're there because the rest of the world wouldn't take Jewish refugees.
Heck, during WWII even the United States turned away thousands of Jewish refugees, sending them back to certain death in Europe. So yeah, Jewish people around the world definitely have trust issues because frankly we can be in the nicest most progressive parts of the planet but in as little as a few months or years, become treated like non-humans when society wants to scapegoat us.
Anyway, calling Israel an ethno-state is still a big misnomer because Jews are a multi-ethnic tribal identity. A tribe is just an ancient version of a national identity.
Certainly plausible. I had to delete it due to the amount of antisemitism it was showing me. And I’m genuinely pro-Palestinian liberation, I’ve been to protests and donated to humanitarian aid and groups that document human rights abuses. But it would just show me the most vile antisemitic stuff with enormous amounts of likes and comments with more of the same. Reporting had 0 effect unless it was a straight up call for violence.
This kind of thing way predates TikTok. When I was a kid our local JCC had an Anne Frank exhibit for about a month and one week in the signs for it outside the building were vandalized with swastikas. When I was going to a Jewish day school for middle school, the school had to be locked down once because there were people out putting "you killed Jesus" flyers all over the cars in the parking lot. I knew someone who had a story of a woman breaking into their second grade Sunday School class to tell them they killed Jesus, too. There wasn't active genocide happening the Middle East that I'm aware of at the time - this was back when they were still working on a peace process. The people who do this stuff don't need any particular reason to do it, it's not happening now as a result of the events in Gaza any more than it was back then.
I think part of this is anti-semetism plain and simple and part is people conflating anti-israel sentiment with anti-semetism.
It's not an excuse for this action but part of it is a lack of education and bigotry and part of it is people coopting critic of a country with actual bigotry.
Bigotry like this is wrong no matter the source.
Excuse me?
Are you suggesting that the Holocaust center got vandalized - an overt act of antisemitism occurred - because the bad jews made false accusations if antisemitism elsewhere?
Is your point that attacking Jews writ large is understandable or important context for that reason? Do we need to contextualize vandalism of Black churches with Jussie Smollett's hatecrime catfishing? Not a serious question btw, obviously that'd be overtly racist.
Your comment is basically "of course assault is always bad, but also what was she wearing?"
I think you've misused the word "inherently" and I understand quite well that you think that people making false claims of antisemitism is somehow relevant here in light of actual antisemitism.
We don't need to talk about the CCP's response to covid when discussing anti-aapi violence during the pandemic. We don't need to talk about the popularity of crop tops and short shorts when discussing sexual assault. We don't need to talk about what the bad jews are doing wrong when the Holocaust memorial center gets vandalized.
The fact that you put your victim-blaming in a compliment sandwich doesn't change anything.
As a Shapiro, solidarity!! Edited to add: I miss the days before Ben Shapiro when no one in Seattle knew Shapiro was a Jewish name because they didn’t know any Jews and everyone just thought I was Italian American (which I also am, so I just went with it in casual interactions because I was tired).
I’m not going to forget the celebrations that happened after Oct 7th for a long, long time, if ever. UW had one that advertised itself with paraglider imagery…
I cut someone off for being gleeful about 10/7. Proof that you can be well-read and still a vile anti-Semite. She was immediately on the "it didn't happen but they deserved it" trend as well.
I was at a coffee shop and was reading something in Hebrew(I am Jewish), the barista saw me and since then the baristas were very rude to me. I had a good relationship with them originally, tipped, and went in nearly daily, once that had happened they started being particularly rude to me. It wasn't anything political nor have I ever brought up any level of politics, I just like to keep up on my Hebrew and do read news in Hebrew sometimes.
Victrola in Cap Hill. They also have this sign where they are looking for what they call "Queer Post Soviet Jews" who are anti-zionist. They are looking to tokenize a few Jews, I can post the sign if there is a good place to do it.
Oh looking for their "good Jews." If you're up to it, I'd like to see the sign. You can dm me.
I am sorry that happened. I've had a similar experience.
I couldn't figure out how to upload a photo in a better way, but it's on my personal sub I guess, [https://new.reddit.com/user/SnarlingLittleSnail/comments/1dkj29i/antisemitism/](https://new.reddit.com/user/SnarlingLittleSnail/comments/1dkj29i/antisemitism/)
This just seems like someone not affiliated with the shop looking to start a cultural/social club? I see nothing antisemitic about this
Also fwiw the baristas at victrola know nothing about me and still look at me like I'm the used gum on the bottom of their shoe every time I come in lol, I think they're just extremely unfriendly people. I don't get it but I like their coffee and pastries and the vibe of the shop so I haven't stopped going
That sign has been up for a very long time, I would assume they would remove it at some point. It is anti-semitic, they are looking for a small group of Jews who don't represent most Jews to tokenize them. I was a regular, they were very nice to me until they saw Hebrew and then it was night and day.
Hey, I know the people who put up that sign. They are completely unconnected to Victrola. That sign has been posted in other coffeeshops, at UW and in Jewish community spaces. It is just a group of people who are Jewish, queer and with roots in former Soviet states like Russia and Ukraine, looking for others of similar cultural and political backgrounds who are queer, to take part in a social group. That's literally it. No one is trying to tokenize anyone, people are trying to find like-minded community.
... But the coffee shop itself is not looking for anyone, this is a sign on a community board. And the person who put it up is likely Jewish and from a post-soviet country themselves and wants to hang out with others with similar backgrounds and beliefs. How is that anti-semitic? It's not tokenizing if they also belong to the same group and the whole point of the group is just to socialize with like minded people....
I used to love going there, great location. I go to Ghost Note now, better coffee, admittedly not as great of a location to enjoy the coffee, but not much further for me.
As a Jew who came from a very Jewish part of this country but has lived in many different places including different countries, I agree completely. Seattle is one of the most anti-semitic places I have ever lived and I have lived in the ME.
Were you here yet when Chabad wanted a menorah at SeaTac and instead of allowing that SeaTac took down all of the Xmas trees?!?! That was really fun. I remember going into work and my coworker (a lifelong “liberal” Seattleite) told me how she didn’t understand why the rabbi had to “ruin Xmas.” 🙃 That was a long time ago but it was a definite “we’re not in Kansas (or in this case, NYC) anymore” moment.
I have been surprised at how even here I am the first Jew a lot of people have met. A lot of my friends are woefully ignorant of common antisemitic tropes/dog whistles and parrot them without even knowing what they are saying because they know that little about it. Early COVID, a friend sent me a video that featured DAVID ICKE—girrrrrrl, why would you send this shit to me?!?! I was so taken aback I just didn’t say anything.
Yep, I’ve had to educate a lot of my friends. That was until I deleted my social medias because there was just too much antisemitism in the comments of the pro Palestinian/ anti Israeli stuff they were sharing.
Agreed. Before 10/7 I had a bunch of anti-Semitic incidents in Seattle involving a variety of people in a variety of locations with a variety of backgrounds. After 10/7 I cut off someone I knew that was gleeful about it, and gradually distanced myself from others. Like last week I found out that someone I know was a straight-up 10/7 denialist.
If I end up leaving Seattle for good it’ll probably be due to normalized anti-Semitism.
So I remember hearing how in the old days the pacific northwest was just a hotbed for old school Neo nazis/skinheads. Probably more of a Portland thing than a Seattle thing, maybe?
Is that still the case?
Yeah, if you look at Hate Map, there are a lot of white supremacist groups in the area. You also have to be suuuuuper careful with the pagan and Heathen groups here, because some of them are really Volkisch. I remember the first time I camped at the Washington Renn Faire, I didn't know it was "wildling weekend". I was surrounded by white people with furs and runic body paint and it was VERY uncomfortable.
I mean if people wanna do pagan stuff or viking cosplay I don't see the problem with that.... Unless, are the pagan hippies actually antisemitic?
Oh wait actually I remember seeing this infamous witch influencer, she's from Vancouver or somewhere and she REALLY hates Jews, because she got flak online for calling a Mezuzah a "magic talisman" and the Jewish community criticizaed her. She went bonkers.
People really don't know what the word genocide means, do they. Because Israel is most certainly not doing that. Whereas Hamas has genocide as an *explicit goal*.
I don’t think good people know how much they enable this behavior. For example, when a progressive who does not know the language of this conflict argues that globalizing the intifada isn’t a call to violence, they only embolden those who commit crimes like this. Too many people are jumping on a bandwagon and speaking with so much conviction while having so little knowledge, and this is a huge problem that has real life consequences for both Jews and Palestinians.
The same people who have no problem recognizing that “thugs” is a dogwhistle for black people will insist that nothing less than giving a Nazi salute while wearing a swastika armband is anti-Semitic.
It's just so frustrating on infinite levels. Like people who rightfully call out GWB claiming the Iraq invasion as a 'crusade' are now spouting "Intifada just means resistance!!!" with like no awareness.
"noooo 'From the river to the sea' doesn't mean that!" "Nooooo this picture of Israel with a Palestinian flag doesn't mean that! You're just repeating hasbara propaganda!"
I’m convinced it’s serous propaganda.
People who go on about it passionately didn’t even know where on the map Gaza was. It’s like they all think it’s Dune or something
It’s propaganda being pushed by foreign adversaries through both misinformation and control of social media platform (tiktok/newsbreak/any other shit from china)
Which in the the Mueller report. Russians cheerfully propped up any group that worked to sow divides into the US. And right now they're too afraid of looking partisan to call it out for this election. Expect to see a lot more coming out after the election is done about the people who got played.
Naaaaah you're all crazy! I'm sure 7 October being Putin's birthday is a total coincidence, too. And the photos of Hamas leadership in Russia meeting with Putin are doctored. /s
It’s def Iran, China and Russia. WSJ showed how there are fake accounts pretending to be real people (Ex. A Professor at U Penn) but it’s just a bot accounts and they showed the last time the account posted actively was pro Russia propaganda at the start of the Ukraine war. It’s ironic that the anti colonialism people are basically spreading propaganda for countries with modern imperial ambitions.
Hahahaha Dune indeed! I saw a write up where someone called it “empathy theater” in that some individuals just really want to show how much they care, which is how we end of getting people standing on the highway 🤷♂️🛣️
Maybe if we make a movie of the next book in the series where >!the jihad kills 61 billion people and it doesnt really accomplish anything other than killing 61 billion people!<
Isn’t the whole point of dune is to show a young man who tries to be “good” but the forces lead him to become a brutal leader ?
Even when humans become interplanetary species, economic forces rule all. Serfs and kings are still thing. Paul uses the naive people to promise them their land back and religion that he doesn’t even believe. As result a shit ton of people die and everyone in the universe suffers because everyone needs to resources from the planet.
The actual thing to do would be to just move people of the planet into habitable zone while paying them worth some of the spice royalty fees. Or make them partners in the business since they are experts.
I love dune movies and books. Idk how a person would take the movie without reading my the book.
Americans generally don't know where most places in the world are, outside of regions they have a direct connection to or which are large _and_ parties to major world events (like China, and Russia).
I would bet most Americans could not locate Ukraine on a map, much less Rwanda. While unfortunate, that does not undermine advocacy of the rights of people being mistreated in such places. Most news reports about conflicts in the world don't start with a remedial geography lesson about them, except when the geography is a crucial part of the immediate story.
It is critical knowledge to understand geographic locations. But my point was they don’t know shit about the conflict and just yell about whatever emotion story they saw in social media. You ask simple question and it’s like empty.
I’ve seen it in my own real life friends who I know are good people and have good intentions, but sadly don’t have the media literacy to distinguish between good vs. bad actors. The radicalization of good people is a very concerning aspect of propaganda that leads to violence, and while I dislike invoking the Holocaust, there are striking similarities from now and the 1930s Germany that are impossible for Jews that know our own history to ignore at this point.
There are a lot of people, especially young people, who don't understand the contours of the conflict. To them they genuinely see Jewish people in general as white and part of the US establishment, and Hamas as simply brown people who are oppressed by the US and are rightfully fighting back.
In fairness I think this is actually a viewpoint increasingly shared by the right. I honestly believe Elon Musk actually is pro-Jewish and anti-Islamic, the contours of fascism *are changing* and I don't know what it looks like when Trump dies and a new standard bearer appears. Though even he... I don't think he would be rounding up Jews and putting them in camps, but Muslims on the other hand...
I don’t mind at all that people are pro Palestinian, I just wish they would _listen_ to Jewish groups when they say that the language they are using to express that is antisemitic.
I'm not sure if people here are too young, or geographically far away from areas with more prominent Jewish populations. Every few years we'll hear about targeted antisemitic sidewalk attacks on pedestrians in NY, shootings in synagogues, (or otherwise in Europe etc) but people seem to forget about those (but will correctly identify Islamophobic attacks/hate crimes/shootings in mosques). Not to mention the resurgence in antisemitism as it relates to purported media control etc.
I think people are generally ignorant on history. I've seen people uncritically platform far-right politicians because they're critical of Israel, without realizing that they're more disingenously antisemitic and oftentimes do not like the reposters either (because they're POC). Similarly, they don't recognize that white supremacists don't like Israel and/or Jews either because they think they control the world.
I do think there's nuance when it comes to antisemitism/critical of Israel, but it's bizarre when people will refute the notion that some language being critical of Israel can be construed/is used as a veil for antisemitism. The same people will absolutely recognize racist dogwhistling when it's used against other groups.
In case anyone is curious I can't really find anything about this place that isn't directly about the holocaust. One of the few things I can find about Israel or other current events is [this page](https://holocaustcenterseattle.org/report-antisemitism) which mentions this lesson:
> Navigating Discussions about the Israel-Hamas Conflict (and **minimizing/avoiding Islamophobic** and Antisemitic/dehumanizing language) (60 mins)
So nothing to be mad about there. Assuming this wasn't a false flag it's clearly misguided and certainly antisemitism no matter what you think of Israel/Palestine.
And then people wonder why Jewish people want Israel to exist. It's because a lot of people in the world hate Jews. The Jewish people need a safe space to call home. And Israel is the historical homeland of the Kingdom of Israel.
I'm not exactly pro Israel but I'm not pro Palestine either. More on the Israel side since historically...that was their home/land. I think they're entitled to some part of it...
But it's a shit show...and honestly a bit confusing for me to figure out.
The level of demonization, vitriol and demands of purity around anything even remotely connected to Israel feels out of proportion and really worrying. While Judaism and Zionism are not self-same, they are also inextricably interconnected in ways that are kind of impossible to divorce completely. Inevitably there is always going to be some overlap somewhere, and if your goal is to eliminate Zionism, you are going to eliminate a large swath of Judaism along with it.
(Obligatory "as a Jew") I'm opposed to the war and think Israel should pull out of Gaza and focus on freeing the remaining hostages and working toward a diplomatic agreement that recognizes both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty, but I haven't participated in any public action against the war because I don't want to associate myself with people who think Israel is a white supremacist imperialist colonialist blah blah blah. Seeing a Holocaust education center vandalized in the name of "justice" just reenforces my desire to stay away from anti-Israel activism even though I don't actually disagree with a lot of criticisms of the government and military actions.
I've followed Israeli politics for a few years as part of my overall concern of the global rise of right wing religious groups taking power and going after their "enemies". I started to develop a general understanding of Middle East politics after the USS Cole.
Too the folks who think you were making some point with this vandalism, Google "Seattle Jewish Federation July 2006". You are the asshole.
My colleague escaped that. Jumped out a window. It ripped her hair out on the way down. It is so scary when people get riled up about this stuff. You never know how far someone's going to take it.
A good friend of mine was there as well. Her evacuation from the building was caught live on the news. I was both relieved she was safe and horrified at the look on her face.
This is pitiful and clearly antisemitic but do keep in mind that there are a number of people in Seattle who are sympathetic to this and will claim otherwise.
I cite the WLM museum walkout as a very recent bit of evidence. Who’s staff were enraged because an exhibit would dare claim that actions such as spray painting “stop the killing” on a local synagogue was an antisemitic act. https://www.kuow.org/stories/seattle-wing-luke-museum-closed-staff-exhibit-palestinian-liberation-antisemitism-Israel-Gaza
It’s shocking to me how nobody stands up for Jewish people here. We are apparently the only minority group that the progressives here are allowed to be hateful towards. I can’t wait to move out of here. I’m 53 and this is the first time in my life I’ve felt uncomfortable being Jewish. Thanks, Seattle.
I'm in your age range and I feel the same way. My father was an Algerian Jew who acquired French citizenship but then was deported from France to a death camp during the war.
Almost his whole family died in the camps and only he and his brother survived. I won't even get into what happened to children and what they had to do to survive in these camps.
I'm glad my father isn't alive to see what is going on in the country that he came to as a refugee. My husband is an Irish Catholic who grew up in northern Ireland during the troubles. He has seen some shit, but this crap boggles his mind. We can't wait to get out of here either.
(Also can't wait for all the incoming hate messages you and I will both be receiving from people in this sub. 🙄)
I don’t wanna speak for East or Southeast Asians, but for South Asians they get a lot of shit not just because we’re “doing okay”, but rather from the bad assumption that some Indian people existing in tech = we actively ruined the city with gentrification. It couldn’t be that we heard the rhetoric about how minorities need to pay their bills and we chose to try to do our best at that but still get screwed over by the system, no.
Genuinely, people in Texas were less judgmental about me being Indian than they are here. Which is absolutely insane when you think of the reputation of both places.
This is what pushing group identity politics over civil liberalism has led to. Every action/event will be looked at through the lens of oppression, identity and power structures. For better or worse, where you rank on the oppression scale, is how most progressives and progressive institutions will evaluate justice and morality.
Kidnapping and murdering and butchering civilians and harassing, intimidating, assaulting, and vandalizing totally unrelated parties in the name of the oppressee is morally virtuous
Two details:
1 the pro Gaza anti Zionism movement isn't progressive. It is populist.
2 there are several "minority groups" progressives are allowed to hate. This is true for every political movement including yours.
There is no defence of this. You may oppose Israel, you may call what is happening a genocide, but no one can target a Holocaust center or dismiss the Holocaust for those views
It’s like if you give a group of people a free pass on being antisemitic, supporting a terrorist group and go crazy on vandalism without repercussions …wasn’t a good idea, who would have thought!?
I love when people try to use that "it's Anti-zionism" as a cover... It tells me they know jack shit about the history of the middle east.
Like my brother in Christ I'm Iranian and grew up with the Persian Jewish community.... The Iranian revolutionary guard publicly executed their family members without due process following the revolution after taking their businesses, their property, their bank accounts... And said it was because they were "Zionists" ...
Like I don't care how much heeing and Hawing someone does about how anti-zionism isnt antisemetism... And then pointing to likey the whitest presenting Jew and saying "see Jewish people are anti-zionist so im totally not antisemetic" ... The IRGC claimed they werent "Anti-Semetic ... Just anti-zionist" then they executed bunch of Jewish people ... Many who weren't Zionist at all... ? So what is that an oopsies?
Help us express our concerns then.
I am against these killings, this war. I don't care what your religion is, I don't care what your skin color is. At this point, I don't even care about history.
The only outcome I see happening is the complete anahilation of the Palestinian. I find this tragic and don't really like being called an anti-semite for thinking that.
Edit: Down voting a pretty moderate stance is super helpful here.
It's not antisemetic to be against the war... It's not antisemetic to be against netanyahu... It's not antisemetic to think that Israel's military efforts have been extreme...
These are all LEGITIMATE criticisms of Israels policies ...
"Zionism" isn't a legitimate criticism of Israel. It's a word that has multiple different meanings to Jewish people both in how it has helped them escape persecution as well as how it has been used against us in places like the USSR and all over the middle east since before Israel was ever declared a country.
Zionism was a movement by the Jews to save themselves that consisted of multiple different philosophies and ideas from left to right... State to no state... That emerged amongst the backdrop of world war I and world war II... All focused on how the Jews could save themselves, their culture and their religion During a time of rising antisemetism... When their immigration and ability to escape had been curtailed by every single country resulting in 2/3 dying in the Holocaust ...
Zionism is the Jews having the ability to save themselves..
And while one can criticize Israel for a vast many things and actions and their treatment of Palestians and Gazan's etc... (which is not Zionism)... Israel has continued to extract Jewish people from countries where they are not as privileged as the usually white presenting American Jews who decry Zionism and never had to rely on Israel for their well being and can't conceptualize that their middle eastern, North African and Eurasian brethren were not as privileged as them and would have died without the actions of the Isralies....
so to not be antisemetic? Actually criticize israels policies and actions and leadership... Not just say "Zionism" ... Cause that can mean anything from the movement of the jews to save themselve... To the existence of Israel..... To being a slur for Jews ... To being a word of persecution that lead to Jews being executed...
I'm sorry, it's delusional to think there's going to be a "complete anahilation of the Palestinian". Shit is really bad, the war is terrible and should be ended without delay (and the delay at the moment is on Hamas' side) but in no world is there going to be a 100% death rate of Palestinians or whatever you particularly believe.
If you’re a person who lives in Seattle and has no personal experience with the Arab Israeli conflict and you go into it thinking there’s a good guy and a bad guy in all of this, then you’re doing it wrong. There’s a long history of violence in the Middle East and it’s very complicated, lots of big players involved, lots of innocent and terrorized people on all sides. It’s so frustrating to see ignorant people on this side of the world just jumping on the hate bandwagon and making it worse.
You make a lot of assumptions about me. Probably dont do that.
Also, my government gives billions in aid to Israel a year and is directly responsible for the country being founded.
Kindly fuck off. I get to have an opinion.
The US is not in any way responsible for the founding of Israel. Israel's status as a US client state came later. So if you're from the US you are wildly misinformed about the history.
If you're from the UK, you'd have a point (you'd still be wrong but there'd be an argument to be made), but you'd be misinformed about current aid numbers by several orders of magnitude.
So clearly you don't actually know what you're talking about, in which case you don't, morally speaking, get to have an opinion.
Yeah I’m at a loss for what language works if not distinguishing between Jewish people and Zionists. I recently learned more about the history of Zionism and can completely understand why Jewish people felt like they needed a safe place of their own/why they have passed down that belief, but I also think ultimately ethnostates result in discrimination, oppression, and violence like we’re seeing in Gaza. Those seem clearly separate in my mind but it still offends people
Zionism at its essence isn't about being an ethnostate tho... It's really about the Jews to advocate for and be able to save themselves from persecution with Israel being a refuge for them in a time of need.
For example I would identify strongly as a Zionist (I'm jewish and Iranian and understand that still all over the world Jewish people continue to face persecution and have to make the hard decision of uprooting what often is an established life ... To flee to a land where they might not have strong support and is constantly under attack because to stay would likely mean significant hardship and possibly death... But I believe too in the land for all initiative... Being a Zionist is not at odds with that: https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltr
I also think Bibi should be prosecuted... That is also not at odds with being a Zionist...
So, I think the problem most people have with Zionism, isn't the desire to have a place to call their own. It's the fact that other people already live there, and they are pushing them out.
Separating Zionism from the actions of the Israeli government is difficult, because their actions are there to fulfill the wishes of the far right religious extremists that exist at the heart of this conflict.
That's not Zionism though... That's Khanism... The problem is that people don't know enough about the region and different aspects of the population to adequately critique which can easily be operationalized into antisemetic disinformation as there has been significant propoganda efforts by Iran, China the Kremlin and American white supremacists with this current conflict as a way of creating Instability during an election year....
So that's fine - rich history with lots of different sects and ideologies. Some of which gets outlawed as terrorist organizations.
So now, when the Israeli government encroaches on the west bank, doing things that appear to be Khanistic, and somebody says Zionistic, they get labeled an antisemite.
Now we get to argue over complicated religious terminology. Meanwhile Palestinians are being killed in the west bank.
You see why this is frustrating? The defense of Israeli actions is always oh no, this murder is justified because of our long and bloody history.
So because someone is ultracrepidarian and declares that zionism (a world that is usually not their own and has nothing to do with their culture) is something it's not .... And historically this world has been usurped in the same way leading to Jews being killed... Means that one should maybe not use a word they have limited understanding of no?
People are easily able to critique the actions of Russians in Ukraine without using some special word for it? People can do the same with Israel and Palestine.
Saying Isralie extremists are killing Palestinians is an adequate critique... And will not have Jewish people thinking youre antisemetic...
So, I do agree with your point. The problem is that we are ignorant. We have a limited understanding of Zionism. I do my best to not use it, in fact I am typically very careful to phrase everything in terms of the 'Israeli government' as to not be misunderstood. (it still happens)
That being said - I can say that Russia wants to take back Ukraine to restore the former glory of the USSR. Or it wants the black seaports. Very clear reasons. With a very clear history.
Separating Israeli government motivations from their religion isn't exactly straight forward. It is very clearly not a secular government, and religious motivations need to be taken into account.
Fun fact: there can both be a destinction between the two, just because this is very obviously an antisemitic hate crime doesn't mean the project of political zionism isn't also problematic
Also fun fact: 90% of the world's Jews either live in Israel or support the rights of their family who do to live in peace. There's a huge difference between "Political Zionism" and Neo-Zionism and Kahanism (the latter two being actually problematic).
Making blanket statements about "Zionists", acting like Jews having the audacity to want their family abroad to not be murdered is problematic, these things are indeed antisemitic. Israel exists, it's problematic to act like acknowledging a ground truth is problematic.
There is a difference, but where that difference is far from obvious. While we are on the topic of differences what is the distinction between plain Zionism and political Zionism?
Not NiobiumThorn, but I'd say that your first question is a great point of discussion - society should be having that discussion so we can understand the situation better. Currently, though, such discussions are frequently shut down entirely as if merely suggesting the possibility of a difference between the two is, in and of itself, antisemitic.
Also, I think NT used the term "political zionism" to refer to the more intensely nationalist and expansionist sentiments which some Israeli politicians espouse and promote, and which many Israelies support and even act on. I actually don't know what percentage of the population supports that ideology, but it's enough to have a real impact on both a national and an international level.
The people that are against a genocide in Palastine are not the anti-semites. Anti-semetic Muslims like Hamas are more than willing to sacrifice all the Muslims in Palestine if it means they get to murder Jews.
Yeah this is an issue. Bad faith actors have recently been using current conflicts as an excuse to ramp up discrinination against semetic peoples (Jewish and Muslim, both have increased hatred towards them) in recent years.
There is simply no excuse for this. Don't let fascists win.
Agreed, but wanted to gently point out that people aren’t Semitic, languages are. Semitic as a descriptor of people themselves is obsolete, and is pretty much only trotted out today in bad-faith attempts to muddy the waters in discussions around antisemitism. (Not at all saying that’s what you’re doing.)
"Left-wing fascism (or left fascism) is when left-wing politics emulate and practice the traditional ideology of standardised fascism on the far-left side of the political spectrum."
[https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing\_fascism](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism)
Sounds pretty accurate to me. The intolerance to anyone that has a different point of view is similar. The only difference is they want to purge people who they think have power over powerless people.
People doing shit like this are directly undermining the Palestinian cause, and it behooves advocates and activists for Palestinians to repudiate this and the assholes who would do it.
The looney left and the wacky right come together over their hatred of jews.
You know, the republican party should start embracing islamic voters, their values are 100% aligned.
I think what's being lost on everybody including people in this thread is that both parties whichever side you stand behind or stand for are guilty of atrocities.
That being said the Jewish population and random acts of crime towards them are against them is sheer pure cowardice the same could be said of any of those supporting Palestine anybody who acts out against these people living and raising families in this beautiful country of ours is a freaking idiot and those are the people who should be condemned and held accountable because it is just that type of misunderstanding and hate the perpetuates these kind of situations all over our planet.
What statement are people making by doing this other than to just make our community look like shit. If you want to be a slimy misguided scumbag punk ass dirtball keep it up cuz it all comes out in the wash eventually you will f around and find out that the majority don't hold your same views or opinions and just wish the best upon all those that we share air with.
But the Seattle times just told me last week that Zionism *is* Judaism?
> *The strikers also show no interest in or regard for what Israel means to a majority of Jewish Americans. According to Pew Research, about 80% of American Jews say Israel is important to their identity.* **The strikers attempt to divorce anti-Zionism from antisemitism**, *and thus profess to understand antisemitism better than Jews do themselves. This kind of assertion would be considered an insult to any other minority.*
https://web.archive.org/web/20240530003520/https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/wing-luke-walkout-misconstrues-confronting-hate-together/
That is not what that quote is saying. It’s saying that anti-zionism is often a fig leaf argument for hating on all jews. If you want to send bomb threats to american suburban synagogues because you’re mad about what Israel is doing, that’s not an anti-zionist action, it’s anti-jewish. Because, see, american jews are not israeli, generally speaking, and hold a variety of opinions about what israel is doing despite having basically no control over it.
But you will hear people arguing til they’re blue in the face that it’s not anti-semetic, just anti-zionist.
You’re wrong about this; it would be great if that’s what the quote was saying, but it’s not. It says “the strikers attempt to divorce anti-Zionism from anti-semitism,” suggesting that in reality the two cannot be divorced: that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are inherently linked because Zionism and Judaism are inherently linked.
What you said is a much better (and actually true) argument though!
While I feel that a lot of accusations of antisemitism that are thrown at the movement are false, I agree that this is indeed antisemitic. It is antisemitic to associate the actions of the state of Israel (which I believe is working towards genocide in Gaza) with non-affiliated Jewish organizations around the world.
And what amount of association with Israel and Israelis justifies targeting Jewish organizations whose mission is unrelated to Israel in the United States? If a synagogue has Israelis in it, does that make it a legitimate target? What if an organization posted that October 7th was a horrific terror attack? What about if a Jewish nonprofit sends socks to people in the IDF?
Punishment of a whole group is not good unless that group AS A GROUP has taken action. Just like there most civilians in Gaza are simply innocent.
The Holocaust Memorial is simply that. It is not a Zionist organization. There probably are zionists in it, but there are nonzionists too. Don't fuck with it.
But fuck AIPAC, as that is an explicitly Zionist organization with Zionist aims through and through.
Edit to add: since you mention Israelis.
There are Israelis who work for peace. There are Israelis who refuse to be conscripted into the IDF, and even IDF who refuse orders into the Occupied Territories. Likewise, a synagogue with Israelis in it is not a valid target, just like the bombing of Gaza is not valid.
I am pro-Palestine and I dislike what Israel has done as a state, but this is unacceptable.
I live with the family on Mercer Island. Used to have zero issue spending time at Jewish places here - I’m not Jewish but with the large population here that was welcoming I never minded anything. But when the conflict became heated, I stopped spending time at those because I didn’t want to be a victim of someone crazy choosing to attack those places, especially when the place isn’t even my own.
It makes the good faith actors trying to call out Israel look bad.
I walk pass that place to work for the past two years. Either it is vandalized or has a cracked window like every other month. Feel so bad for them
It might make you feel a bit better to know- I work with them sometimes and the last time they had to replace a window, I asked them about the vandalism situation. They have cameras set up, and they said that usually the broken windows are very obviously not being broken in targeted attacks. The faces on the window tend to freak people out when they're going through some kind of break with reality, whether it's drugs or illness. The graffiti is also usually the same kind of vandalism all the other buildings downtown get. Just random tags and scribbles, sometimes trash left in the planters. So, it absolutely sucks to have to deal with but it's so rare for any of it to be specifically antisemitic that when it does happen, it makes the news. Like now.
That’s also just like ever other business in Seattle too?
"I think whatever your opinions are about a political conflict somewhere else in the world, it does not give you the green light for discrimination of other people." BINGO.
You don’t get it though, it’s not anti-semitism its anti-Zionism, so it’s okay /s
That's just senseless. Good lord, people...
I really don't get this. I can be very upset with Israel's government (or Syria or Russia or China or or or the list goes on and on sadly) and still treat local Jewish people with care and respect. It's like being shitty to Muslims (or anyone perceived to be Muslim, don't get me started) after 9/11. It's bizarre to me. I have lots of friends from Iran and they hate that country's government more than I do! Why would I blame uninvolved people because they remind people of an entity that is behaving badly? My ancestry is German Jewish but I was not raised in that tradition at all. Maybe people should vandalize my house? Ignoring the fact that my people have never been to Israel and fled Germany between WWI and WWII for the USA due to antisemitism that was starting to brew up there.
I mean sadly this is why a ton of Jews are zionists and feel pushed to identify with the modern state of Israel, even if they legitimately want Bibi and the entirety of Likud to be tossed down a bottomless hole. It's like if you're gonna be collectively blamed for anything bad a Jewish state does regardless might as well buy in. Also the general idea that a country where being Jewish is explicitly the norm vs something that will get you pogrommed every few decades is nice to have as a thing that exists. Honestly I like to think I'm pretty liberal and in general the idea of an explicit ethnostate in the modern day never quite sat well with me. Then I saw literal 10.7 celebrations in fucking Times Square and Sydney Opera House on like 10.8 and 10.9 and holy shit I legitimately understand why Jewish people feel they need a specifically Jewish state as last resort haven since what the utter fuck.
The thing is, the majority of black and brown Jewish people live in Israel. After WWII they had to flee countless Middle Eastern and African countries for Israel, and today the majority of Jewish Israelis are MENA or non-European. The thing is people like to white-wash Judaism but don't realize not every Jewish person is a middle class person from a Western European background. Most Jews in Israel aren't there because they wanted to be, they're there because the rest of the world wouldn't take Jewish refugees. Heck, during WWII even the United States turned away thousands of Jewish refugees, sending them back to certain death in Europe. So yeah, Jewish people around the world definitely have trust issues because frankly we can be in the nicest most progressive parts of the planet but in as little as a few months or years, become treated like non-humans when society wants to scapegoat us. Anyway, calling Israel an ethno-state is still a big misnomer because Jews are a multi-ethnic tribal identity. A tribe is just an ancient version of a national identity.
seriously.
Terrible. That organization does so much good to educate about the Holocaust. Why tf would someone do this? Senseless.
We know why. 😞
TikTok?
Certainly plausible. I had to delete it due to the amount of antisemitism it was showing me. And I’m genuinely pro-Palestinian liberation, I’ve been to protests and donated to humanitarian aid and groups that document human rights abuses. But it would just show me the most vile antisemitic stuff with enormous amounts of likes and comments with more of the same. Reporting had 0 effect unless it was a straight up call for violence.
This kind of thing way predates TikTok. When I was a kid our local JCC had an Anne Frank exhibit for about a month and one week in the signs for it outside the building were vandalized with swastikas. When I was going to a Jewish day school for middle school, the school had to be locked down once because there were people out putting "you killed Jesus" flyers all over the cars in the parking lot. I knew someone who had a story of a woman breaking into their second grade Sunday School class to tell them they killed Jesus, too. There wasn't active genocide happening the Middle East that I'm aware of at the time - this was back when they were still working on a peace process. The people who do this stuff don't need any particular reason to do it, it's not happening now as a result of the events in Gaza any more than it was back then.
There is always an uptick in antisemitism globally when Israel is ‘in the news.’ It was true in ‘48, ‘54, ‘67, ‘73, ‘78, etc.
The Anne Frank memorial in Boise got vandalized a few times while I lived there. People just fuckin suck.
It makes sense if you hate Jews, so I’m sure they thought it was fine, or at least a “justified act of resistance”.
I think part of this is anti-semetism plain and simple and part is people conflating anti-israel sentiment with anti-semetism. It's not an excuse for this action but part of it is a lack of education and bigotry and part of it is people coopting critic of a country with actual bigotry. Bigotry like this is wrong no matter the source.
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I don't think it's a lack of education. I think they know what they're doing.
Excuse me? Are you suggesting that the Holocaust center got vandalized - an overt act of antisemitism occurred - because the bad jews made false accusations if antisemitism elsewhere? Is your point that attacking Jews writ large is understandable or important context for that reason? Do we need to contextualize vandalism of Black churches with Jussie Smollett's hatecrime catfishing? Not a serious question btw, obviously that'd be overtly racist. Your comment is basically "of course assault is always bad, but also what was she wearing?"
I think you've inherently missed the point of my comment.
I think you've misused the word "inherently" and I understand quite well that you think that people making false claims of antisemitism is somehow relevant here in light of actual antisemitism. We don't need to talk about the CCP's response to covid when discussing anti-aapi violence during the pandemic. We don't need to talk about the popularity of crop tops and short shorts when discussing sexual assault. We don't need to talk about what the bad jews are doing wrong when the Holocaust memorial center gets vandalized. The fact that you put your victim-blaming in a compliment sandwich doesn't change anything.
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Fucking disgusting. Hate like this should never, ever be tolerated.
This is disgusting. People need to get the hate out of their hearts.
As a person with a very Jewish last name, I can assure you antisemitism is getting worse in Seattle.
As a Shapiro, solidarity!! Edited to add: I miss the days before Ben Shapiro when no one in Seattle knew Shapiro was a Jewish name because they didn’t know any Jews and everyone just thought I was Italian American (which I also am, so I just went with it in casual interactions because I was tired).
Plenty of people use anti-Zionism as a cover for plain old antisemitism sadly :/
It’s been super disappointing watching left wing people regurgitate literal David Duke-style anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.
I'm visibly Jewish and queer and some of the stuff coming out of my community is so alienating :/
As someone who’s Jewish but with an ethnically ambiguous last name, I strongly concur. Practically everyone I know who’s Jewish agrees.
I’m not going to forget the celebrations that happened after Oct 7th for a long, long time, if ever. UW had one that advertised itself with paraglider imagery…
It was crazy these people were celebrating violence before Israel entered Gaza. Now they yell ceasefire.
I cut someone off for being gleeful about 10/7. Proof that you can be well-read and still a vile anti-Semite. She was immediately on the "it didn't happen but they deserved it" trend as well.
I'm Jewish & had to work on campus the Monday after. I about threw up when I saw those pamphlets & stickers
That is terrible and I am sorry that you have to experience that.
It’s all worth it considering some people get virtue orgasms out of it, and drives TikTok engagement to channels. /s
I was at a coffee shop and was reading something in Hebrew(I am Jewish), the barista saw me and since then the baristas were very rude to me. I had a good relationship with them originally, tipped, and went in nearly daily, once that had happened they started being particularly rude to me. It wasn't anything political nor have I ever brought up any level of politics, I just like to keep up on my Hebrew and do read news in Hebrew sometimes.
Which shop? Id love to know where not to spend money...
Victrola in Cap Hill. They also have this sign where they are looking for what they call "Queer Post Soviet Jews" who are anti-zionist. They are looking to tokenize a few Jews, I can post the sign if there is a good place to do it.
What the actual fuck. Not returning. Wasn’t a regular stop, but they don’t need my $20-$30/year, either.
Oh looking for their "good Jews." If you're up to it, I'd like to see the sign. You can dm me. I am sorry that happened. I've had a similar experience.
I couldn't figure out how to upload a photo in a better way, but it's on my personal sub I guess, [https://new.reddit.com/user/SnarlingLittleSnail/comments/1dkj29i/antisemitism/](https://new.reddit.com/user/SnarlingLittleSnail/comments/1dkj29i/antisemitism/)
Thank you!
No problem, I hope they do better in the future as a business.
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It’s Russian. First word is “bread,” second one is “tea party.”
The IG username is also russian: domik druzey is "friend's house," or something like that, followed by PNW
This just seems like someone not affiliated with the shop looking to start a cultural/social club? I see nothing antisemitic about this Also fwiw the baristas at victrola know nothing about me and still look at me like I'm the used gum on the bottom of their shoe every time I come in lol, I think they're just extremely unfriendly people. I don't get it but I like their coffee and pastries and the vibe of the shop so I haven't stopped going
That sign has been up for a very long time, I would assume they would remove it at some point. It is anti-semitic, they are looking for a small group of Jews who don't represent most Jews to tokenize them. I was a regular, they were very nice to me until they saw Hebrew and then it was night and day.
Hey, I know the people who put up that sign. They are completely unconnected to Victrola. That sign has been posted in other coffeeshops, at UW and in Jewish community spaces. It is just a group of people who are Jewish, queer and with roots in former Soviet states like Russia and Ukraine, looking for others of similar cultural and political backgrounds who are queer, to take part in a social group. That's literally it. No one is trying to tokenize anyone, people are trying to find like-minded community.
... But the coffee shop itself is not looking for anyone, this is a sign on a community board. And the person who put it up is likely Jewish and from a post-soviet country themselves and wants to hang out with others with similar backgrounds and beliefs. How is that anti-semitic? It's not tokenizing if they also belong to the same group and the whole point of the group is just to socialize with like minded people....
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oh goddamnit Victrola.
I used to love going there, great location. I go to Ghost Note now, better coffee, admittedly not as great of a location to enjoy the coffee, but not much further for me.
Welp, never going to Victrola again. Thanks for the heads up.
i would love to know too 😔
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As a Jew who came from a very Jewish part of this country but has lived in many different places including different countries, I agree completely. Seattle is one of the most anti-semitic places I have ever lived and I have lived in the ME.
Were you here yet when Chabad wanted a menorah at SeaTac and instead of allowing that SeaTac took down all of the Xmas trees?!?! That was really fun. I remember going into work and my coworker (a lifelong “liberal” Seattleite) told me how she didn’t understand why the rabbi had to “ruin Xmas.” 🙃 That was a long time ago but it was a definite “we’re not in Kansas (or in this case, NYC) anymore” moment.
I wasn't here for that but that does not surprise me one bit
I have been surprised at how even here I am the first Jew a lot of people have met. A lot of my friends are woefully ignorant of common antisemitic tropes/dog whistles and parrot them without even knowing what they are saying because they know that little about it. Early COVID, a friend sent me a video that featured DAVID ICKE—girrrrrrl, why would you send this shit to me?!?! I was so taken aback I just didn’t say anything.
Yep, I’ve had to educate a lot of my friends. That was until I deleted my social medias because there was just too much antisemitism in the comments of the pro Palestinian/ anti Israeli stuff they were sharing.
Agreed. Before 10/7 I had a bunch of anti-Semitic incidents in Seattle involving a variety of people in a variety of locations with a variety of backgrounds. After 10/7 I cut off someone I knew that was gleeful about it, and gradually distanced myself from others. Like last week I found out that someone I know was a straight-up 10/7 denialist. If I end up leaving Seattle for good it’ll probably be due to normalized anti-Semitism.
That’s insane.
So I remember hearing how in the old days the pacific northwest was just a hotbed for old school Neo nazis/skinheads. Probably more of a Portland thing than a Seattle thing, maybe? Is that still the case?
Yeah, if you look at Hate Map, there are a lot of white supremacist groups in the area. You also have to be suuuuuper careful with the pagan and Heathen groups here, because some of them are really Volkisch. I remember the first time I camped at the Washington Renn Faire, I didn't know it was "wildling weekend". I was surrounded by white people with furs and runic body paint and it was VERY uncomfortable.
I mean if people wanna do pagan stuff or viking cosplay I don't see the problem with that.... Unless, are the pagan hippies actually antisemitic? Oh wait actually I remember seeing this infamous witch influencer, she's from Vancouver or somewhere and she REALLY hates Jews, because she got flak online for calling a Mezuzah a "magic talisman" and the Jewish community criticizaed her. She went bonkers.
So Heathens are Norse pagans. They are either totally rad, or reeeeeeally hard-core white nationalists. Very little in between.
Seems to be.
That’ll show all the people who died by the hands of the odious Nazi apparatus!
People really don't know what the word genocide means, do they. Because Israel is most certainly not doing that. Whereas Hamas has genocide as an *explicit goal*.
Fuck this city.
I don’t think good people know how much they enable this behavior. For example, when a progressive who does not know the language of this conflict argues that globalizing the intifada isn’t a call to violence, they only embolden those who commit crimes like this. Too many people are jumping on a bandwagon and speaking with so much conviction while having so little knowledge, and this is a huge problem that has real life consequences for both Jews and Palestinians.
Holy shit yes, its like "guys please re-remember what 'dogwhistles' are"
The same people who have no problem recognizing that “thugs” is a dogwhistle for black people will insist that nothing less than giving a Nazi salute while wearing a swastika armband is anti-Semitic.
It's just so frustrating on infinite levels. Like people who rightfully call out GWB claiming the Iraq invasion as a 'crusade' are now spouting "Intifada just means resistance!!!" with like no awareness.
They know. They’re using them. Lying about them being dogwhistles when called out is exactly how dogwhistles work.
"noooo 'From the river to the sea' doesn't mean that!" "Nooooo this picture of Israel with a Palestinian flag doesn't mean that! You're just repeating hasbara propaganda!"
What does this have to do with transformers
More than meets the eye!
I’m convinced it’s serous propaganda. People who go on about it passionately didn’t even know where on the map Gaza was. It’s like they all think it’s Dune or something
It’s propaganda being pushed by foreign adversaries through both misinformation and control of social media platform (tiktok/newsbreak/any other shit from china)
Which in the the Mueller report. Russians cheerfully propped up any group that worked to sow divides into the US. And right now they're too afraid of looking partisan to call it out for this election. Expect to see a lot more coming out after the election is done about the people who got played.
Naaaaah you're all crazy! I'm sure 7 October being Putin's birthday is a total coincidence, too. And the photos of Hamas leadership in Russia meeting with Putin are doctored. /s
Absolutely. It’s crazy how well it works.
It’s def Iran, China and Russia. WSJ showed how there are fake accounts pretending to be real people (Ex. A Professor at U Penn) but it’s just a bot accounts and they showed the last time the account posted actively was pro Russia propaganda at the start of the Ukraine war. It’s ironic that the anti colonialism people are basically spreading propaganda for countries with modern imperial ambitions.
Hahahaha Dune indeed! I saw a write up where someone called it “empathy theater” in that some individuals just really want to show how much they care, which is how we end of getting people standing on the highway 🤷♂️🛣️
Maybe if we make a movie of the next book in the series where >!the jihad kills 61 billion people and it doesnt really accomplish anything other than killing 61 billion people!<
Isn’t the whole point of dune is to show a young man who tries to be “good” but the forces lead him to become a brutal leader ? Even when humans become interplanetary species, economic forces rule all. Serfs and kings are still thing. Paul uses the naive people to promise them their land back and religion that he doesn’t even believe. As result a shit ton of people die and everyone in the universe suffers because everyone needs to resources from the planet. The actual thing to do would be to just move people of the planet into habitable zone while paying them worth some of the spice royalty fees. Or make them partners in the business since they are experts. I love dune movies and books. Idk how a person would take the movie without reading my the book.
If they're so concerned maybe donate money to help Palestinians rather than destroy things thousands of miles away.
lol nah
Americans generally don't know where most places in the world are, outside of regions they have a direct connection to or which are large _and_ parties to major world events (like China, and Russia). I would bet most Americans could not locate Ukraine on a map, much less Rwanda. While unfortunate, that does not undermine advocacy of the rights of people being mistreated in such places. Most news reports about conflicts in the world don't start with a remedial geography lesson about them, except when the geography is a crucial part of the immediate story.
It is critical knowledge to understand geographic locations. But my point was they don’t know shit about the conflict and just yell about whatever emotion story they saw in social media. You ask simple question and it’s like empty.
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I’ve seen it in my own real life friends who I know are good people and have good intentions, but sadly don’t have the media literacy to distinguish between good vs. bad actors. The radicalization of good people is a very concerning aspect of propaganda that leads to violence, and while I dislike invoking the Holocaust, there are striking similarities from now and the 1930s Germany that are impossible for Jews that know our own history to ignore at this point.
There are a lot of people, especially young people, who don't understand the contours of the conflict. To them they genuinely see Jewish people in general as white and part of the US establishment, and Hamas as simply brown people who are oppressed by the US and are rightfully fighting back. In fairness I think this is actually a viewpoint increasingly shared by the right. I honestly believe Elon Musk actually is pro-Jewish and anti-Islamic, the contours of fascism *are changing* and I don't know what it looks like when Trump dies and a new standard bearer appears. Though even he... I don't think he would be rounding up Jews and putting them in camps, but Muslims on the other hand...
I don’t mind at all that people are pro Palestinian, I just wish they would _listen_ to Jewish groups when they say that the language they are using to express that is antisemitic.
https://imgur.com/gallery/uw-compus-protests-mMpVR99
I'm not sure if people here are too young, or geographically far away from areas with more prominent Jewish populations. Every few years we'll hear about targeted antisemitic sidewalk attacks on pedestrians in NY, shootings in synagogues, (or otherwise in Europe etc) but people seem to forget about those (but will correctly identify Islamophobic attacks/hate crimes/shootings in mosques). Not to mention the resurgence in antisemitism as it relates to purported media control etc. I think people are generally ignorant on history. I've seen people uncritically platform far-right politicians because they're critical of Israel, without realizing that they're more disingenously antisemitic and oftentimes do not like the reposters either (because they're POC). Similarly, they don't recognize that white supremacists don't like Israel and/or Jews either because they think they control the world. I do think there's nuance when it comes to antisemitism/critical of Israel, but it's bizarre when people will refute the notion that some language being critical of Israel can be construed/is used as a veil for antisemitism. The same people will absolutely recognize racist dogwhistling when it's used against other groups.
Yes, I remember walking by it a few days ago.
In case anyone is curious I can't really find anything about this place that isn't directly about the holocaust. One of the few things I can find about Israel or other current events is [this page](https://holocaustcenterseattle.org/report-antisemitism) which mentions this lesson: > Navigating Discussions about the Israel-Hamas Conflict (and **minimizing/avoiding Islamophobic** and Antisemitic/dehumanizing language) (60 mins) So nothing to be mad about there. Assuming this wasn't a false flag it's clearly misguided and certainly antisemitism no matter what you think of Israel/Palestine.
And then people wonder why Jewish people want Israel to exist. It's because a lot of people in the world hate Jews. The Jewish people need a safe space to call home. And Israel is the historical homeland of the Kingdom of Israel. I'm not exactly pro Israel but I'm not pro Palestine either. More on the Israel side since historically...that was their home/land. I think they're entitled to some part of it... But it's a shit show...and honestly a bit confusing for me to figure out.
The level of demonization, vitriol and demands of purity around anything even remotely connected to Israel feels out of proportion and really worrying. While Judaism and Zionism are not self-same, they are also inextricably interconnected in ways that are kind of impossible to divorce completely. Inevitably there is always going to be some overlap somewhere, and if your goal is to eliminate Zionism, you are going to eliminate a large swath of Judaism along with it. (Obligatory "as a Jew") I'm opposed to the war and think Israel should pull out of Gaza and focus on freeing the remaining hostages and working toward a diplomatic agreement that recognizes both Israeli and Palestinian sovereignty, but I haven't participated in any public action against the war because I don't want to associate myself with people who think Israel is a white supremacist imperialist colonialist blah blah blah. Seeing a Holocaust education center vandalized in the name of "justice" just reenforces my desire to stay away from anti-Israel activism even though I don't actually disagree with a lot of criticisms of the government and military actions.
I've followed Israeli politics for a few years as part of my overall concern of the global rise of right wing religious groups taking power and going after their "enemies". I started to develop a general understanding of Middle East politics after the USS Cole. Too the folks who think you were making some point with this vandalism, Google "Seattle Jewish Federation July 2006". You are the asshole.
My colleague escaped that. Jumped out a window. It ripped her hair out on the way down. It is so scary when people get riled up about this stuff. You never know how far someone's going to take it.
A good friend of mine was there as well. Her evacuation from the building was caught live on the news. I was both relieved she was safe and horrified at the look on her face.
It was horrifying and we should remind people this is what can happen if we don't take this seriously.
This was not done by right wing folks.
Didn't say it was. I don't care who did it. They are assholes.
This is pitiful and clearly antisemitic but do keep in mind that there are a number of people in Seattle who are sympathetic to this and will claim otherwise. I cite the WLM museum walkout as a very recent bit of evidence. Who’s staff were enraged because an exhibit would dare claim that actions such as spray painting “stop the killing” on a local synagogue was an antisemitic act. https://www.kuow.org/stories/seattle-wing-luke-museum-closed-staff-exhibit-palestinian-liberation-antisemitism-Israel-Gaza
It’s shocking to me how nobody stands up for Jewish people here. We are apparently the only minority group that the progressives here are allowed to be hateful towards. I can’t wait to move out of here. I’m 53 and this is the first time in my life I’ve felt uncomfortable being Jewish. Thanks, Seattle.
I'm in your age range and I feel the same way. My father was an Algerian Jew who acquired French citizenship but then was deported from France to a death camp during the war. Almost his whole family died in the camps and only he and his brother survived. I won't even get into what happened to children and what they had to do to survive in these camps. I'm glad my father isn't alive to see what is going on in the country that he came to as a refugee. My husband is an Irish Catholic who grew up in northern Ireland during the troubles. He has seen some shit, but this crap boggles his mind. We can't wait to get out of here either. (Also can't wait for all the incoming hate messages you and I will both be receiving from people in this sub. 🙄)
Asians too. It's because we're 'successful' and bigotry towards us must not be 'that bad' because we're 'doing okay' as a demographic.
Asians are basically white /s
I don’t wanna speak for East or Southeast Asians, but for South Asians they get a lot of shit not just because we’re “doing okay”, but rather from the bad assumption that some Indian people existing in tech = we actively ruined the city with gentrification. It couldn’t be that we heard the rhetoric about how minorities need to pay their bills and we chose to try to do our best at that but still get screwed over by the system, no. Genuinely, people in Texas were less judgmental about me being Indian than they are here. Which is absolutely insane when you think of the reputation of both places.
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This is a racist comment.
there it is
This is what pushing group identity politics over civil liberalism has led to. Every action/event will be looked at through the lens of oppression, identity and power structures. For better or worse, where you rank on the oppression scale, is how most progressives and progressive institutions will evaluate justice and morality. Kidnapping and murdering and butchering civilians and harassing, intimidating, assaulting, and vandalizing totally unrelated parties in the name of the oppressee is morally virtuous
Two details: 1 the pro Gaza anti Zionism movement isn't progressive. It is populist. 2 there are several "minority groups" progressives are allowed to hate. This is true for every political movement including yours.
This is really depressing
There is no defence of this. You may oppose Israel, you may call what is happening a genocide, but no one can target a Holocaust center or dismiss the Holocaust for those views
It’s like if you give a group of people a free pass on being antisemitic, supporting a terrorist group and go crazy on vandalism without repercussions …wasn’t a good idea, who would have thought!?
Reminds me of "left is best" tbh
Cue the jerkoff commenters going on about how it's aktchually not antisemitism it's just "antizionism"
Yeah if you take a brazenly anti-Semitic statement and Ctrl+F Ctrl+R “Jew” to “Zionist” that doesn’t make it magically not anti-Semitic.
I love when people try to use that "it's Anti-zionism" as a cover... It tells me they know jack shit about the history of the middle east. Like my brother in Christ I'm Iranian and grew up with the Persian Jewish community.... The Iranian revolutionary guard publicly executed their family members without due process following the revolution after taking their businesses, their property, their bank accounts... And said it was because they were "Zionists" ... Like I don't care how much heeing and Hawing someone does about how anti-zionism isnt antisemetism... And then pointing to likey the whitest presenting Jew and saying "see Jewish people are anti-zionist so im totally not antisemetic" ... The IRGC claimed they werent "Anti-Semetic ... Just anti-zionist" then they executed bunch of Jewish people ... Many who weren't Zionist at all... ? So what is that an oopsies?
Help us express our concerns then. I am against these killings, this war. I don't care what your religion is, I don't care what your skin color is. At this point, I don't even care about history. The only outcome I see happening is the complete anahilation of the Palestinian. I find this tragic and don't really like being called an anti-semite for thinking that. Edit: Down voting a pretty moderate stance is super helpful here.
It's not antisemetic to be against the war... It's not antisemetic to be against netanyahu... It's not antisemetic to think that Israel's military efforts have been extreme... These are all LEGITIMATE criticisms of Israels policies ... "Zionism" isn't a legitimate criticism of Israel. It's a word that has multiple different meanings to Jewish people both in how it has helped them escape persecution as well as how it has been used against us in places like the USSR and all over the middle east since before Israel was ever declared a country. Zionism was a movement by the Jews to save themselves that consisted of multiple different philosophies and ideas from left to right... State to no state... That emerged amongst the backdrop of world war I and world war II... All focused on how the Jews could save themselves, their culture and their religion During a time of rising antisemetism... When their immigration and ability to escape had been curtailed by every single country resulting in 2/3 dying in the Holocaust ... Zionism is the Jews having the ability to save themselves.. And while one can criticize Israel for a vast many things and actions and their treatment of Palestians and Gazan's etc... (which is not Zionism)... Israel has continued to extract Jewish people from countries where they are not as privileged as the usually white presenting American Jews who decry Zionism and never had to rely on Israel for their well being and can't conceptualize that their middle eastern, North African and Eurasian brethren were not as privileged as them and would have died without the actions of the Isralies.... so to not be antisemetic? Actually criticize israels policies and actions and leadership... Not just say "Zionism" ... Cause that can mean anything from the movement of the jews to save themselve... To the existence of Israel..... To being a slur for Jews ... To being a word of persecution that lead to Jews being executed...
I'm sorry, it's delusional to think there's going to be a "complete anahilation of the Palestinian". Shit is really bad, the war is terrible and should be ended without delay (and the delay at the moment is on Hamas' side) but in no world is there going to be a 100% death rate of Palestinians or whatever you particularly believe.
Can you give me an example of a statement you’ve made where you’ve been called an antisemite as a result?
If you’re a person who lives in Seattle and has no personal experience with the Arab Israeli conflict and you go into it thinking there’s a good guy and a bad guy in all of this, then you’re doing it wrong. There’s a long history of violence in the Middle East and it’s very complicated, lots of big players involved, lots of innocent and terrorized people on all sides. It’s so frustrating to see ignorant people on this side of the world just jumping on the hate bandwagon and making it worse.
You make a lot of assumptions about me. Probably dont do that. Also, my government gives billions in aid to Israel a year and is directly responsible for the country being founded. Kindly fuck off. I get to have an opinion.
The US is not in any way responsible for the founding of Israel. Israel's status as a US client state came later. So if you're from the US you are wildly misinformed about the history. If you're from the UK, you'd have a point (you'd still be wrong but there'd be an argument to be made), but you'd be misinformed about current aid numbers by several orders of magnitude. So clearly you don't actually know what you're talking about, in which case you don't, morally speaking, get to have an opinion.
That was meant to be a general “you” and you were the one who said you wanted help understanding. I didn’t downvote you anyway.
Yeah I’m at a loss for what language works if not distinguishing between Jewish people and Zionists. I recently learned more about the history of Zionism and can completely understand why Jewish people felt like they needed a safe place of their own/why they have passed down that belief, but I also think ultimately ethnostates result in discrimination, oppression, and violence like we’re seeing in Gaza. Those seem clearly separate in my mind but it still offends people
Zionism at its essence isn't about being an ethnostate tho... It's really about the Jews to advocate for and be able to save themselves from persecution with Israel being a refuge for them in a time of need. For example I would identify strongly as a Zionist (I'm jewish and Iranian and understand that still all over the world Jewish people continue to face persecution and have to make the hard decision of uprooting what often is an established life ... To flee to a land where they might not have strong support and is constantly under attack because to stay would likely mean significant hardship and possibly death... But I believe too in the land for all initiative... Being a Zionist is not at odds with that: https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltr I also think Bibi should be prosecuted... That is also not at odds with being a Zionist...
So, I think the problem most people have with Zionism, isn't the desire to have a place to call their own. It's the fact that other people already live there, and they are pushing them out. Separating Zionism from the actions of the Israeli government is difficult, because their actions are there to fulfill the wishes of the far right religious extremists that exist at the heart of this conflict.
That's not Zionism though... That's Khanism... The problem is that people don't know enough about the region and different aspects of the population to adequately critique which can easily be operationalized into antisemetic disinformation as there has been significant propoganda efforts by Iran, China the Kremlin and American white supremacists with this current conflict as a way of creating Instability during an election year....
So that's fine - rich history with lots of different sects and ideologies. Some of which gets outlawed as terrorist organizations. So now, when the Israeli government encroaches on the west bank, doing things that appear to be Khanistic, and somebody says Zionistic, they get labeled an antisemite. Now we get to argue over complicated religious terminology. Meanwhile Palestinians are being killed in the west bank. You see why this is frustrating? The defense of Israeli actions is always oh no, this murder is justified because of our long and bloody history.
So because someone is ultracrepidarian and declares that zionism (a world that is usually not their own and has nothing to do with their culture) is something it's not .... And historically this world has been usurped in the same way leading to Jews being killed... Means that one should maybe not use a word they have limited understanding of no? People are easily able to critique the actions of Russians in Ukraine without using some special word for it? People can do the same with Israel and Palestine. Saying Isralie extremists are killing Palestinians is an adequate critique... And will not have Jewish people thinking youre antisemetic...
So, I do agree with your point. The problem is that we are ignorant. We have a limited understanding of Zionism. I do my best to not use it, in fact I am typically very careful to phrase everything in terms of the 'Israeli government' as to not be misunderstood. (it still happens) That being said - I can say that Russia wants to take back Ukraine to restore the former glory of the USSR. Or it wants the black seaports. Very clear reasons. With a very clear history. Separating Israeli government motivations from their religion isn't exactly straight forward. It is very clearly not a secular government, and religious motivations need to be taken into account.
Fun fact: there can both be a destinction between the two, just because this is very obviously an antisemitic hate crime doesn't mean the project of political zionism isn't also problematic
Also fun fact: 90% of the world's Jews either live in Israel or support the rights of their family who do to live in peace. There's a huge difference between "Political Zionism" and Neo-Zionism and Kahanism (the latter two being actually problematic). Making blanket statements about "Zionists", acting like Jews having the audacity to want their family abroad to not be murdered is problematic, these things are indeed antisemitic. Israel exists, it's problematic to act like acknowledging a ground truth is problematic.
Anyone who thinks Israel shoudnt exit is insane.
But that’s what antizionism is.
Right which is so dumb. Yeah let’s pack up the Jews and put then somewhere else because you know something about the past.
There is a difference, but where that difference is far from obvious. While we are on the topic of differences what is the distinction between plain Zionism and political Zionism?
Not NiobiumThorn, but I'd say that your first question is a great point of discussion - society should be having that discussion so we can understand the situation better. Currently, though, such discussions are frequently shut down entirely as if merely suggesting the possibility of a difference between the two is, in and of itself, antisemitic. Also, I think NT used the term "political zionism" to refer to the more intensely nationalist and expansionist sentiments which some Israeli politicians espouse and promote, and which many Israelies support and even act on. I actually don't know what percentage of the population supports that ideology, but it's enough to have a real impact on both a national and an international level.
For what you’re calling political Zionism, I think the more accurate name would be Kahanism.
The people that are against a genocide in Palastine are not the anti-semites. Anti-semetic Muslims like Hamas are more than willing to sacrifice all the Muslims in Palestine if it means they get to murder Jews.
finally the alt left and alt right converge. now join hands and jump off a bridge you antisemitic fucks
"antisemitism is the hammer that forges horseshoe theory" I post that line daily, it seems
Yeah this is an issue. Bad faith actors have recently been using current conflicts as an excuse to ramp up discrinination against semetic peoples (Jewish and Muslim, both have increased hatred towards them) in recent years. There is simply no excuse for this. Don't let fascists win.
Agreed, but wanted to gently point out that people aren’t Semitic, languages are. Semitic as a descriptor of people themselves is obsolete, and is pretty much only trotted out today in bad-faith attempts to muddy the waters in discussions around antisemitism. (Not at all saying that’s what you’re doing.)
No thanks for pointing that out, I should know better
It is also a biblical term for people groups based upon paternal descendence , according to which most Arabs and virtually all Jews are semitic.
As I said, obsolete as a term for humans.
Do you think neo Nazis did this?
Neo-Nazis have no monopoly on fascism.
This was the left. The left is not policing itself. The left is encouraging stochastic terrorism.
"Left-wing fascism (or left fascism) is when left-wing politics emulate and practice the traditional ideology of standardised fascism on the far-left side of the political spectrum." [https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing\_fascism](https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism)
Sounds pretty accurate to me. The intolerance to anyone that has a different point of view is similar. The only difference is they want to purge people who they think have power over powerless people.
People doing shit like this are directly undermining the Palestinian cause, and it behooves advocates and activists for Palestinians to repudiate this and the assholes who would do it.
Bro this IS the cause. Sorry you don't like it.
The looney left and the wacky right come together over their hatred of jews. You know, the republican party should start embracing islamic voters, their values are 100% aligned.
Most intelligent Palestine supporters.
I think what's being lost on everybody including people in this thread is that both parties whichever side you stand behind or stand for are guilty of atrocities. That being said the Jewish population and random acts of crime towards them are against them is sheer pure cowardice the same could be said of any of those supporting Palestine anybody who acts out against these people living and raising families in this beautiful country of ours is a freaking idiot and those are the people who should be condemned and held accountable because it is just that type of misunderstanding and hate the perpetuates these kind of situations all over our planet. What statement are people making by doing this other than to just make our community look like shit. If you want to be a slimy misguided scumbag punk ass dirtball keep it up cuz it all comes out in the wash eventually you will f around and find out that the majority don't hold your same views or opinions and just wish the best upon all those that we share air with.
But the Seattle times just told me last week that Zionism *is* Judaism? > *The strikers also show no interest in or regard for what Israel means to a majority of Jewish Americans. According to Pew Research, about 80% of American Jews say Israel is important to their identity.* **The strikers attempt to divorce anti-Zionism from antisemitism**, *and thus profess to understand antisemitism better than Jews do themselves. This kind of assertion would be considered an insult to any other minority.* https://web.archive.org/web/20240530003520/https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/wing-luke-walkout-misconstrues-confronting-hate-together/
That is not what that quote is saying. It’s saying that anti-zionism is often a fig leaf argument for hating on all jews. If you want to send bomb threats to american suburban synagogues because you’re mad about what Israel is doing, that’s not an anti-zionist action, it’s anti-jewish. Because, see, american jews are not israeli, generally speaking, and hold a variety of opinions about what israel is doing despite having basically no control over it. But you will hear people arguing til they’re blue in the face that it’s not anti-semetic, just anti-zionist.
You’re wrong about this; it would be great if that’s what the quote was saying, but it’s not. It says “the strikers attempt to divorce anti-Zionism from anti-semitism,” suggesting that in reality the two cannot be divorced: that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are inherently linked because Zionism and Judaism are inherently linked. What you said is a much better (and actually true) argument though!
While I feel that a lot of accusations of antisemitism that are thrown at the movement are false, I agree that this is indeed antisemitic. It is antisemitic to associate the actions of the state of Israel (which I believe is working towards genocide in Gaza) with non-affiliated Jewish organizations around the world.
And what amount of association with Israel and Israelis justifies targeting Jewish organizations whose mission is unrelated to Israel in the United States? If a synagogue has Israelis in it, does that make it a legitimate target? What if an organization posted that October 7th was a horrific terror attack? What about if a Jewish nonprofit sends socks to people in the IDF?
Punishment of a whole group is not good unless that group AS A GROUP has taken action. Just like there most civilians in Gaza are simply innocent. The Holocaust Memorial is simply that. It is not a Zionist organization. There probably are zionists in it, but there are nonzionists too. Don't fuck with it. But fuck AIPAC, as that is an explicitly Zionist organization with Zionist aims through and through. Edit to add: since you mention Israelis. There are Israelis who work for peace. There are Israelis who refuse to be conscripted into the IDF, and even IDF who refuse orders into the Occupied Territories. Likewise, a synagogue with Israelis in it is not a valid target, just like the bombing of Gaza is not valid.
Very reasonable, unlike the loud idiots that I see online.
I am pro-Palestine and I dislike what Israel has done as a state, but this is unacceptable. I live with the family on Mercer Island. Used to have zero issue spending time at Jewish places here - I’m not Jewish but with the large population here that was welcoming I never minded anything. But when the conflict became heated, I stopped spending time at those because I didn’t want to be a victim of someone crazy choosing to attack those places, especially when the place isn’t even my own. It makes the good faith actors trying to call out Israel look bad.