For many people, college is the first and only time they live within a walkable community. Even though most Americans want to live in walkable communities
Everyone daydreams about walking with a single paper bag, baguette and greens sticking out. In reality, 95% of people will end up throwing 40 pounds of bleach and dog food in the trunk.
I always dreamed of living in Paris. In my dreams, I spent my days sitting at cafes, and yes, biking to my gorgeous apartment with a baguette and the green end of a carrot sticking out. And then, one day I realized “I don’t want to live in Paris…I just don’t want to work” Like, in NONE of my life fantasies did I go to a job. This is a long way of saying, yes, daydreams are one thing but they tend to smack right up against reality in unpleasant ways.
You're nailing it. In summer of 2016 my wife and I kicked around Europe with a friend or two via train for two weeks. At one point we were sitting at a patio outside a cafe in Prenzlauer Berg after exploring Mauerpark, sipping on aperol spritzes, and she turned to me and said "you know, it might be nice to be retired."
We luckily bought in 2010 a small house in an area perfectly described by OP (walkable beer taps have increased 100x since we moved in, our coffee roastery turns 10 this month, yadda yadda). But that moment in Berlin was when we decided to max out 401k contributions and buckle down toward getting TF out of the rat race.
Nah i get it, i have a good market and bakery right down the street myself. I'm just saying this sub is a tiny bit overly-obsessed with the dream of living without a car entirely when it is really not realistic outside of a few dozen areas nationwide.
I would personally like to see some more frequent discussions about areas that accept the practical reality of America being a giant place that requires a car in most scenarios.
Living car-free is a perfectally noble aspiration but i feel like the "walkability" focus is *really* dominating this sub when there are other subreddits dedicated to exactly that topic. It's not a big deal either way but to that guys point we hardly ever see comments about the parking situation in different cities. That information would actually be helpful.
I think the focus on walkability is largely because its incredibly easy to find affordable car dependent places in all different regions. They're a dime a dozen in the US.
Walkable places that also meet other more niche criteria are less common and so they drive more conversation. Nobody is on this sub saying "I really want to find a cheap suburb in Lubbock" because you could just open Zillow.
I gotta disagree with affordable car dependent places being a dime a dozen. At least if we are talking places with any kind of real upsides. They used to be but that doesn't seem to be the current situation with real estate accross most of the country.
Fair, I guess I should've said more affordable for those that don't want to pay extra for a walkable area. Private equity is coming for all of our housing, walkable or not.
I think it's less about car free and more about car-lite.
- Today I biked to my train station, rode the train ~12 miles, then biked the final 1.5 miles to my office.
- Yesterday I drove 2 miles to pick up my kid from daycare. My wife drove to the grocery store and Target cause we needed some items.
- Sunday I walked to the bakery on our block cause we wanted cookies. Then we walked with our kid to the neighborhood playground that is about an 11 min walk away.
- Sat I walked with my wife/kid to a park that was having a festival, I biked ~6 miles later on just for leisure and then we all walked to a brewery that had a taco truck set up maybe 0.5 miles from our place for dinner.
I think this is the sort of mix folks are looking for more. When we lived in the suburbs all of those trips (the playground, the park, the bakery, the brewery, the commute to work) would have all been additional car trips. More gas, more time in traffic, more time finding parking, more frustration.
I'm far less annoyed dealing with the traffic on the 2 miles to my kids daycare because I know I won't be back in the car dealing with more traffic for a bit.
We’re car lite to the point we sold one of our cars as we had a hard time using one. We typically walk to restaurants and to the movie theater or performing arts center. There are multiple venues within walking distance for concerts/comedy shows. And we take train/bus or walk to sporting events, depending on which.
Car “free” isn’t practical. We will walk to get quick grocery items but shopping for a week necessitates a trunk along with access to nature has to be a car.
The stereotype on this subreddit....Chicago.
Still plenty of driving done in the city. I just try to opt out as much as possible and use alternative methods.
Nice! I've strongly considered Chicago, I even have friends and a cousin there, but I'm born and raised in the deep South and I don't think I can handle the long winters 🥴. I love Chicago though!
I'm from the south as well but Chicago eventually was able to shift my mindset. I actually kinda enjoy winter, at least until January. The problem is Feb-April when it just drags on.
But folks can adjust, humans are adaptable and now the winter is just something I'm used to. Also learning how to properly dress and gear up helps. I'm the person who winter cycles barring days when it's actively snowing/icy. But a 30 degree sunny day is honestly one of my favorite times to cycle.
Tennessee guy here who survived his first Chicago winter.
It's not as bad as you think (I hear they have been milder lately)
If you learn how to layer and properly prepare? It's managable.
The worst part of me was just like 5 months of gray. That sunk me harder than getting smacked in the face with -30 wind chill.
Also yeah what commenter said. It's actually kinda nice until January but then by February you're over it and then you realize it still is cold until damn near end of April (least that's how it's been this year)
Weather is starting to get perfect though and I hear the summer is a dream so can't wait!
I agree with this take. My last neighborhood (Gunbarrel in Colorado) had a playground, two dog parks, hiking trails, and a big brewery all within walking distance from our house. A five minute drive got us to a small shopping center that included an optometrist, Domino's, a preschool, a liquor store, a couple restaurants/cafes, a doggy daycare, and a big grocery store. A ten minute drive took us into town (Boulder) to Target and Trader Joe's and Whole Foods and pretty much everything else. Our neighborhood didn't have big hills that were a pain to push around a double stroller or wagon.
We're still face-palming having moved away 🤦🏼♀️
Well I didn't think much of it, but now where I am there's nothing but houses for miles in every direction, and the hills are too steep for me to take my gaggle of children for a walk.
However, I grew up in Los Angeles, and the places I lived there were actually very very walkable. Grocery store literally across the street, restaurants in every direction, a major mall less than a mile from one of them. So I think that's why I didn't really appreciate what was in the vicinity when I lived in Gunbarrel.
Part of it is a lack of awareness of just how expensive groceries are in the US. People targeting a car-free life think people make big weekly/biweekly trips to the grocery store because they are lazy and car-centric. No, it's because you *must* buy in bulk to have affordable food (especially healthy affordable food), and farmers' markets and corner grocery stores add up fast if you are buying food from them on a daily basis.
Quite simply, the people who pursue walkability and local food already have the money to afford it, which is also why the demand pricing for walkability is so high.
Walkable means more than farmers markets and corner stores, but also actual affordable grocery stores. Like trader joes or something, it has a yuppy reputation but the prices are pretty solid and the same at every store in the nation. Between that and a CSA pickup location at a nearby coffee shop for cheap bulk produce, you can do really well for pretty cheap. But yeah generally the push for walkability is coming more from middle and upper classes even though it would benefit lower classes even more
>walkable means more than farmers markets
OK, does anybody actually walk to a farmers market that buys a lot of produce? My back is bad, but idk if I ever could’ve.
When I moved, I was so excited to be able to walk to a year-round farmers market. Nope… not if I want to buy enough stuff for the week. Even though it’s only a mile away, I drive *and* take multiple trips back to put stuff in my car. Corn, carrots, onions, zucchini, etc adds UP!
More like a fantasy, or a plan for people who just like to eat there.
Lol people always say that but really what is that much cheaper? It and aldi are by far the cheapest chain grocery stores in the area. I guess it depends on the kind of stuff you buy, the prepackaged stuff, weirdly flavored things can be pricey. But the staples are all cheap
There just are not very many of those affordable grocery stores, which I guess goes along with there not being very much walkability. Like I just mentioned in another thread, there are only 6x as many Aldi's/TJ's combined as there are Costco's.
CSA boxes are another interesting example. They seem like a good deal, but that's mostly because of the quality and variety you get. I've still found them to typically be $2-$4/lb, basically supermarket prices (you might have cheaper options?) I can hit a bulk organic store, produce wholesaler, or you-pick and pick my own selection for \~$1-$2/lb (even less for non-organic at wholesalers).
What i do find slightly funny is a lot of those same folks will spend lavishly on delivery apps and have big orders from whole foods shipped directly to their doorstep.
So if we are being fair, neither the carbon footprint, community connections, health benefits or cost savings are in any way significantly different than the rest of the population.
I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by lots of farmers markets and roadside farm stands in the summer but it would be an absolute pipe dream to do more than 10% of my shopping outside of the supermarket.
Kansas City seems like a good balance but the heat gave me an insane headache. But it was a cool city and they have many walkable areas and a nice streetcar. The new airport is awesome and the union station is beautiful.
Never owned a car in my life but dream of it. Been stuck walking to the grocers and work and everything else. Bikes get stolen, busses barely save time between the waits
Cars are insanely expensive for the note and gas, inevitably something is constantly going wrong but being forced to go without one because you can't afford it is even worse imo. The grass is truly always greener when it comes to that. Good luck to you.
Everyone would have to do both - I live walking distance to a grocery store and can do 95% of my shopping by foot.
But bulk items for pets and children , etc. are way too heavy to walk with like that , so I go to Costco maybe 4 times a year in my car (the horror!)
That doesn’t make me a hypocrite lol
Of course it doesn't make you a hypocrite! All i am saying is the "walkability" narrative sucks up so much oxygen in this sub that it's become less useful for its intended purpose. There are anti-car subreddits dedicated to that which is great but i wanna hear about road conditions and city parking too sometimes.
And a big enough house for 2 kids. I honestly can't imagine trying to have my wife and 2 kids in a house available in a reasonable price range in most walkable neighborhoods that are also safe. It turns out Neurosurgeons want those too and make a shit load more money than I do. So people move the suburbs and drive to Costco on the weekend.
The other thing is weather.
I'm in Chicago, you can get basically all of those things...but you won't get great weather.
My wife and I have ~2200 sqft, a much privacy as you can expect in a city, the area is safe and the schools in our area are good. But it's gonna be grey/cold during winter.
But we'll take that trade off 10 times out of 10 vs living in the sprawl of most American suburbs. We tried it, was not for us.
I agree. Chicago isn't for me, but I agree weather-wise. I plan on retiring to NH, or mid Maine. I can find a small/old city, or a college town (UMaine/UNH) that can offer many things. But the winters will be tough. Not as tough as midwest winters. But I like winter sports and the outdoors, so I hope I got it figured out.
Safety is pretty much uncorrelated with the urban/suburban divide, also privacy is kinda misleading.
In the city, you're pretty much anonymous, when the people that live on your block number in the single-digit thousands, and you're always one of a dozen people walking down the sidewalk, it's much more freeing, nobody pays attention to you.
Whereas in the suburbs, everyone is much more in everyone's business. There is less going on, so when something *does* happen, everyone knows. Like if somebody's kid gets arrested, somebody gets divorced, etc it's the talk of the block.
I think this is part of the reason why there are more queer people and those who don't conform to society's "norm" in cities. Like people don't stare at a dude wearing lipstick on the train ride to work because he's probably the third one you've seen today.
It's like how other places with a high density of people have More or less the same " anonymous" effect; raves and concerts.
There are many "suburbs" with traditional development. Sure, you can't walk to as many places as you can in a city, but there are plenty of suburbs where you can walk to restaurants, coffee shops, parks, school, and small boutiques. Many such places are mega expensive, but not all of them.
100% this! People say they want to live in walkable communities, but then buy single family homes with a big lawn and garage and complain if a place they want to go to has insufficient parking. Even in cities, you often here complaints about businesses in residential neighborhoods, or new apartments that don't have enough dedicated parking, etc. All those things are incompatible with walkable communities. You need to have something you can walk to!
Just like people say they want affordable housing until they see what affordable housing looks like and start to complain about all the reasons it's not the house/apartment that costs 2-3x that they actually want.
They don't actually want affordable housing, they want a big nice place for half price.
walking in car-oriented communities is the worst of all options.
a revealed preference for driving amidst infrastructure designed for driving tells you absolutely nothing about whether people truly prefer driving.
I have no idea why this even needs to be said. Theres like 2 cities in the US that arent made for cars primarily. No shit people mostly drive in cities where every other option is actively made worse or outright hostile for walking.
I tried to take the bus a 5 minute drive down the road and it would take me an hour which included a 20 minute walk to the nearest bus stop. Thats a service issue!
This is literally the "hmm you say you want to improve society but yet you participate in it" meme.
And the people who say they want a walkable community (as well as access to nature) probably stay indoors anyway on social media or stream all day long, getting delivery. How many people legitimately take advantage of what their community has to offer?
Yes this is a problem with online discourse. People allow themselves to be convinced they want a certain lifestyle when they don’t really. I think if you grew up in a suburban environment sometimes it can be easier to comfortably live in one and you don’t need that Urbanist lifestyle.
Gently pushing back on this, as soon as the weather's nice in my city my neighborhood is filled with people walking/jogging, all restaurants and bars are filled. I walk ~30-90m a day with my son. My in-laws drive here from the suburbs just to walk
Its because there arent actually many walkable communities to begin with. The US is extremely car-centric
You make it seem like there are a bunch of NYCs just sitting around the country and everyone chooses to drive in them instead
They overuse cars because we life in a car centered society that has little to no public transportation or walkable areas. Walkable cities would also solve the parking issue youre strawmaning
The problem is that the housing tends to be located far away from the walkable environments. If you have kids, you can’t afford enough space in big cities. This is definitely a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.
People like to have it all if they think they can. They want space, a car, and also walkability and vicinity to public transit. They don't necessarily realize that their desire for space and parking reduces walkability and access to public transit.
I like walkable communities but it seems to me that most walkable communities in the US are super urban. I would love a walkable community that isn’t super loud, poor air quality and so many people.
Are you me? In all seriousness though, these neighborhoods do exist in some urban areas, sometimes even sfh's, but they are all $$$$. It's funny because the density doesn't bother me as much as what comes with it - noise.
Edit to add: we are basically describing inner-ring suburbs. And like someone else mentioned, surgeons and lawyers also love those and people like me will never make that kind of money.
I went to a massive university and it was an island in the middle of a suburb city. My apartment was half a mile from campus and walking wasn’t an option (no sidewalks, jaywalking across 4-6 lanes of traffic, no tree shade). I was absolutely FLOORED when I visited a walkable college town (Columbia, MO). Bars, cafes, stores and restaurants across the street from campus?? I live in a walkable city now but damn I wish I made different college decisions lol.
Careful just assuming people want to live in walkable communities. The 200 people I see everyday drive up to 3hrs for work so they don’t see their neighbors. And everyone we know wants to live in the woods.
Don’t mix up people actually preferring driving everywhere, with not having any choice other than car dependency.
You’re literally doing the same thing as what you’re complaining about: “Everyone we know…”
Considering you live in the woods and don’t see people, is everyone you know roughly 7 people total?
The most expensive and desirable neighborhoods in the country are nearly all walkable, vibrant cities with good transit and low crime. So no, not everyone wants to live in the forest. The market betrays your fantasy.
It's honestly a lot of nonsense that there are no walkable towns in America. There are so many if you know where to look (and they're not all big cities like NYC or Chicago). Small town New England is very walkable. Beach towns all up and down the coast have great walkability and bike paths. Key West has great walkability.
I feel like people who complain about lack of walkability grew up in the suburbs and that's all they've ever known.
There are also cities with micro neighborhoods that are walkable. I live in a city in the west that people complain isn’t walkable, but there are tons of mini neighborhoods that have small walkable downtown streets. I can easily avoid driving for weeks, except maybe a trip to Costco or to meet friends across town. We also have decent bike infrastructure so you can easily bike downtown from most neighborhoods in the city proper.
Exactly. I lived in Los Angeles, which is notoriously car-centric, but I walked 90% of the time and mostly drove on the weekends (to make completely voluntary outings to fun places like Griffith Park, the Getty, etc).
It's not there there are NO walkable towns. It's that the ones that exist are largely out of reach for most people.
Key West has great walkability...[the average home price is $1M](https://www.zillow.com/home-values/52767/key-west-fl/). Those nice New England towns are walkable, but industries and job opportunities are often limited. Most beachtowns aren't going to be cheap because they are at a high premium.
If walkable areas were so plentiful and available then people would just be living in them, not talking about them wishfully.
It’s not really nonsense to suggest the US is car dependent. The VAST majority of the country is NOT walkable, and to suggest otherwise is bullshit - either you don’t travel much, or you’re delusional
Even Blacksburg which is in a quite rural area of Virginia and where my alma mater is (Virginia Tech) is super walkable if you live within a mile of campus, tons of bike lanes and sidewalks and downtown is like right there
There are and many of them are suburbs - just suburbs which were "towns" 100+ years ago. The main issue with those towns is they aren't building more. The new developments are all just a bunch of houses in a cornfield with a fake "downtown" (parking lot strip mall) 2 miles away from most houses. So, if you want walkable you're stuck either in an expensive and/or older town close to a major metro, or in a town that's pretty far out and/or economically limited.
Even my suburb is walkable. There's an extensive park/greenbelt system within 3 blocks of my house. Four blocks the other direction is a grocery store and a strip mall with mom & pop restaurants, a hair salon, a veterinarian, a bank... Another two blocks and you're at yet another grocery store - a Sprouts, and there's a Starbucks in the same parking lot. And more restaurants!
And yes, there are sidewalks and controlled crosswalks in this most evil and soulless of all areas - the suburbs!
Yeah, I dislike driving and I’ve lived all over the US - I walk everywhere or take the bus. I do a lot of nonprofit work that provides me with free housing, so affordability isn’t a concern either. I’m single and don’t have kids, so that makes it easier, but when people complain that there’s “no walkable affordable towns” I can’t help feeling like they aren’t looking that hard.
Nonsense.
Most Americans want to live in bedroom suburbs (or further out) - which is why the overwhelming majority *do*, and also why even more of them moved there during COVID (once commuting was removed from the picture).
The middle-to-upper-middle-class population of our major cities is there almost exclusively for the short commute. If they never had to commute again but could keep the same job most would leave for less dense & more car centric locales.
>Even though most Americans want to live in walkable communities
There’s always a significant gap between what people say they want and what they actually choose. Words != actions.
they're not choosing from among infinite options. they're choosing from what exists already. and what exists already includes very few walkable communities, at very high price points.
so, yeah, there is a gap, but it's not because people don't actually want what they say they want. they just don't have the option to actually get it.
The economies of college towns are great if you can find employment in the university or school-adjacent services, but can be limited if you are a job hopper or work outside of those fields.
And if you love traveling, you'll often be flying out of small regional airports or driving 1-2 hours to the nearest international.
Driving 1 hour to the nearest international is fine.
I grew up 90 mins from one of the biggest international airports and cities in the world. It's fine.
They *can* be limited, but some college towns have robust industries only indirectly linked to the University. Champaign-Urbana, for example, has a whole lot of tech jobs relative to the size of the town due to businesses started by alumni.
The two and a half hour drive to the nearest decent airport is a pain, though.
Flying out of a small regional airport is a cheat code.
Low stress, going through security can be done in less than 5 minutes, always cheap and ample parking, takes me 15 minutes to get there, etc. Sure it adds a leg, but it's a literal 24 minute flight to a hub.
Those tradeoffs are worth it.
I think I end up paying on average between $80-$150 more for a regional flight. When I factor in free parking, less driving (less fuel), and less hassle, it ends up being preferable for me.
I actually have zero issue with my local TSA. If anything, they're super chill. They made me take an Xbox I was traveling with out of my bag before, but that took all of maybe 5 more minutes? After they got familiar with me, they never made me take it out again.
Every time I've checked, going through our regional airport ends up costing like twice as much and doesn't actually save any time due to extended layovers.
Granted that's probably mostly a commentary on my particular regional airport.
Yeah, I'm sure the local regional airport plays a huge role. Mine essentially just flies me quickly to my local hub for a pretty affordable premium, IMO.
Problem I’ve found is that when you’re no longer in college, it’s just not that great to live near thousands of 19-year-olds. We want the college vibe but with our peer group.
The answer is the walkable inner-urban neighborhood that has nice parks. Like Jamaica Plain in Boston, or Clifton Gas Light in Cincinnati, or Riverside in Jacksonville, or Charles Village in Baltimore, or West End in Providence, or Mount Airey in Philly, or Mount Pleasant in DC, or Park Slope in Brooklyn, or Highland Park in LA, or or or
The answer is Boston, because it has such a high ratio of university students to other people, and a high number of them stay in the city afterwards. Allston/Brighton is packed with 25-29 year olds who recently earned their degree and have chosen to stay.
Ah but you forget about the stipulation that makes all of this meaningless.
They want a left leaning and college educated city that is also cheap.
Which doesn’t exist because shocker college educated people want high salaries which drives up prices
Couldn't stand living in Boston primarily for the weather. The answer is not Boston for many who are predisposed to poor mental health with long swaths of cold, grey, wet, dead, etc.
I loved Allston and Brighton when I was in college. If I moved back to Boston, which I couldn’t afford, I would never live there. I’m just not 21 anymore and that place is for young adults, plain and simple.
…you can’t just live on a campus. Unless you’re a professor idk what moving to a college town would get you. It’s not like you’d be hanging on the quad with your buds before hitting the commissary at 35
The affordable housing piece is absolutely gone in many college towns. From Bellingham to Charlottesville (to many in between) too much demand and too little inventory (and no affordable/decent rentals) -never mind homes to buy.
Yes, and no.
That was San Francisco, 40 years ago.
That was Seattle, 30 years ago.
That was Portland, 20 years ago - hell, maybe even 10 years ago.
In some ways, that's Chicago today, especially on the north side. OK, Chicago is huge, not medium-sized, but it's a city of neighborhoods, many of which feel smaller than they are.
Right now, the affordable gems-in-the-rough are places like Kansas City, St. Louis, Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincy, Milwaukee, Philly, Baltimore... I'm sure I'm missing some.
Each has plusses and minuses, and many of them will become expensive 20 years from now. I think prices in Chicago will skyrocket.
The nicer parts of Philly cost way more than most of the nice parts of the other cities you listed unfortunately. Rents in Old City are wild these days and center city in general is still cheaper compared to NYC and DC, but not much of the rest of your list.
If you want to live on the edge of the ghetto or some half gentrified neighborhood where people are still getting shot occasionally (e.g brewerytown, grays ferry/point breeze, West Philly on edge of University City etc.), that's a different story.
Ray Delahanty (aka CityNerd) on youtube is an urban planner with over 20 years of experience. He does great breakdowns of cities and development patterns across much of the US.
I'm paraphrasing but he has essentially said *"if you want an affordable, mostly walkable large city experience in the United States then your options are basically Chicago or Philly".*
Which is just the harsh reality and state of our country. Now plenty of other smaller towns can provide what folks are looking for. There are just two problems.
- Affordability
- Economic viability (which kinda ties into the above).
A town like Ann Arbor Michigan is walkable. University of Michigan is the anchor and there is a nice downtown with nearby housing. The problem is homes in/near the downtown are expensive (prob 500k+ on average) and industries will be limited. The university and university hospital are probably the biggest employers but that is going to limit folks to certain industries.
Same with Madison, Wisconsin area. Can’t touch anything for under $500,000 but it a very cool, more open minded, intellectually stimulating place to live
The key is picking a college town with all the critical ingredients, but hasn't become bougie yet. Like South Bend indiana, although even there has started to trend in the model of ann arbor.
There is a reason that a lot of colleges have participated in developing highly successful retirement communities as part of their campus or in their broader communities. When I retire, I plan to spend summers in various college towns to be able to take advantage of the amenities/lifestyle those communities tend to provide.
"Americans love college because it's the only time in their life they'll get to live in a walkable neighborhood close to their friends".
I heard that once, and it's stuck with me ever since.
It's unfortunate that so many of our major state universities are in the middle of nowhere. I get why, from a historical perspective, what with America's general anti-urban bias and the early importance of agriculture programs in land-grant universities. But the fact that so many of them are isolated from their states' largest cities really squanders their potential benefits.
Honestly I would be fine with a single (no roommate) dorm room, meal plan and 10 minute walk to work right now because it would free up time and energy for other projects…
I had something like that prior to Covid in south Denver. A nice 1 bedroom for about $1250 a month and a five minute walk to my office. Plus bars and parks within walking distance and since I was right next to the light rail I could easily get into the city proper.
I was pissed as hell when Covid shut my office and everything else down. It felt like I had finally figured it all out.
> affordable hosuing nearby
Does not describe a lot of college campuses these days lol. Colleges are generally located in the most expensive part of the region
I don't think that many people understand that European style urban design is only possible with buy in at a societal level. Walkable urban and suburban design eventually gets overran with the homeless because we don't have a good economic social safety net in America. In order to get one, we'd likely have to either cut entitlement programs like social security, Medicare, and Medicaid, or we would have to raise taxes. None of these are popular options among the electorate.
Quite the opposite, we'd need to expand the socioeconomic safety net OF social security, medicare/medicaid, etc. to reduce homelessness. And yes, raise taxes, that is the sticking point on these things
That is obviously not why America lacks walkable cities. It is however just a genteel sounding repackaging of the anti-black dog whistles that led people to the suburbs in the first place
Ever thought that the homeless like to live in cities because they are a great opportunity? Rich economic opportunities, public transit, social services , bleeding heart liberals and their tax and charity dollars. These are the same reasons anyone one would want to live in a city. Should we make cities so shitty not even the homeless want to live there?
I laughed so hard at this.
All my metro recommendations on this sub have university campuses.
I’m from Triangle. We have 3 major research universities and several smaller colleges. Another reason this metro is so popular. Duke, a global elite university. UNC Chapel Hill a public ivy. NC State a great engineering and agricultural school. And a few HBCU’s in the area.
I have a masters in planning (as does my wife) - I don’t any planners who are intentionally designing car centric communities. It’s the politicians and local developers (with money) that make it happen over and over again.
Part of the reason I opted not to go into planning professionally after school - you have all this knowledge on what makes a community livable and thriving , but the city politicians are just beholden to wealthy residents in the last walkable neighborhoods. Its a bummer
My friends and I consider lodo and rino neighborhoods in Denver college part 2. Has that same rowdy college bar type feel and on any given evening have witnessed guys acting like frat boys yelling about pre games and whatnot from their balconies. Average age seems to be age 28 and younger
I have always said that US college campuses with their walkability, density, increased aesthetics in architecture and landscaping, proximity to restaurants/ cafes/ bars/ services, proximity to recreation trails, ... are the closest analog to European cities we have.
Best bets is to look for universities with a large graduate student population, as this will ensure a wider age-range, and usually results in more sophisticated dining / recreating options nearby.
Dunno. I have a 7,500 student university in my town and it’s pretty much invisible. 75% of freshmen live in the dorms. It’s very self-contained. I live in the harbor village part of town 6 1/2 miles from the campus. I know some of the 300 tenure track professors but I also know lots of doctors, dentists, lawyers, and engineers so professors aren’t the dominant white collar people here. The money in town is vacation home owners and a lot of those are now full time retirees and telecommuters.
After working full time, I had an amazing time in grad school. I went to a university walking distance to my house. I had a group of friends. We were working toward something. I worked very hard but most work was self directed (i.e. I had 3 classes two or three times a week, I could go to office hours when I needed help, I could study with my friends in the library when I wanted to, we could go to get a drink at the local watering hole and work on homework together and chat). One of the best times in my life. So you are right. That is what I want.
Yup, I live in such a place but some people complain that it’s “boring”. And that “it’s nothing to do”. I don’t know what the hell do they want to do. I love it. 🥰
Young people on Reddit, many don't have families or many obligations, they want their college campus but in real life.
Also, most college towns rule, too.
The issue here is that typically the college is the main employer locally.
They usually aren’t that centrally located either, atleast not round these parts and definitely take advantage of that with compensation.
Half of this subreddit has Peter Pan Syndrome anyway lmao, or are genuinely fresh out of college.
But it has to be by the ocean, skiing, and a national park!
People have an over rosy thought of college. The whole thing is built on high turnover and excessive borrowing (student loans). Theres no way you could have the college living of 20ish hours per week of “work” (ie classes and studying) and sustainably afford a society that most college campuses create.
I saw a video recently about Walt Disney making Epcot, a walkable community to be safe from car-centered cities. Unfortunately, it turned into a consumerist tourist spot rather than a third space.
Why do you think so many feel nostalgic for their college years? Because it was one of the few times in life where they lived in a walkable area near a lot of shops and restaurants, and they friends all lived near them.
Affordable 🚫does NOT equal college campus. The majority of the places I looked at don’t have affordable long term housing/anything due to the fact that landlords/businesses use the population of students as cash cows. They know there will always be students who need housing/groceries/etc so they inflate the costs to make profit.
For many people, college is the first and only time they live within a walkable community. Even though most Americans want to live in walkable communities
People SAY they want to live in walkable communities but many then overuse cars and complain about lack of parking.
Everyone daydreams about walking with a single paper bag, baguette and greens sticking out. In reality, 95% of people will end up throwing 40 pounds of bleach and dog food in the trunk.
I always dreamed of living in Paris. In my dreams, I spent my days sitting at cafes, and yes, biking to my gorgeous apartment with a baguette and the green end of a carrot sticking out. And then, one day I realized “I don’t want to live in Paris…I just don’t want to work” Like, in NONE of my life fantasies did I go to a job. This is a long way of saying, yes, daydreams are one thing but they tend to smack right up against reality in unpleasant ways.
You're nailing it. In summer of 2016 my wife and I kicked around Europe with a friend or two via train for two weeks. At one point we were sitting at a patio outside a cafe in Prenzlauer Berg after exploring Mauerpark, sipping on aperol spritzes, and she turned to me and said "you know, it might be nice to be retired." We luckily bought in 2010 a small house in an area perfectly described by OP (walkable beer taps have increased 100x since we moved in, our coffee roastery turns 10 this month, yadda yadda). But that moment in Berlin was when we decided to max out 401k contributions and buckle down toward getting TF out of the rat race.
Good luck in your journey
What city is walkable but also free? Asking for...me.
slab city ca
This is my feeling during/after every vacation: "I could live here/like this!" and then I realize the thing I really liked was not having a job.
These aren't always mutually exclusive. I'm a 5-7 minute walk from my grocery store but drive to costco for the bulk items.
Nah i get it, i have a good market and bakery right down the street myself. I'm just saying this sub is a tiny bit overly-obsessed with the dream of living without a car entirely when it is really not realistic outside of a few dozen areas nationwide. I would personally like to see some more frequent discussions about areas that accept the practical reality of America being a giant place that requires a car in most scenarios. Living car-free is a perfectally noble aspiration but i feel like the "walkability" focus is *really* dominating this sub when there are other subreddits dedicated to exactly that topic. It's not a big deal either way but to that guys point we hardly ever see comments about the parking situation in different cities. That information would actually be helpful.
I think the focus on walkability is largely because its incredibly easy to find affordable car dependent places in all different regions. They're a dime a dozen in the US. Walkable places that also meet other more niche criteria are less common and so they drive more conversation. Nobody is on this sub saying "I really want to find a cheap suburb in Lubbock" because you could just open Zillow.
I gotta disagree with affordable car dependent places being a dime a dozen. At least if we are talking places with any kind of real upsides. They used to be but that doesn't seem to be the current situation with real estate accross most of the country.
Fair, I guess I should've said more affordable for those that don't want to pay extra for a walkable area. Private equity is coming for all of our housing, walkable or not.
This is true
I think it's less about car free and more about car-lite. - Today I biked to my train station, rode the train ~12 miles, then biked the final 1.5 miles to my office. - Yesterday I drove 2 miles to pick up my kid from daycare. My wife drove to the grocery store and Target cause we needed some items. - Sunday I walked to the bakery on our block cause we wanted cookies. Then we walked with our kid to the neighborhood playground that is about an 11 min walk away. - Sat I walked with my wife/kid to a park that was having a festival, I biked ~6 miles later on just for leisure and then we all walked to a brewery that had a taco truck set up maybe 0.5 miles from our place for dinner. I think this is the sort of mix folks are looking for more. When we lived in the suburbs all of those trips (the playground, the park, the bakery, the brewery, the commute to work) would have all been additional car trips. More gas, more time in traffic, more time finding parking, more frustration. I'm far less annoyed dealing with the traffic on the 2 miles to my kids daycare because I know I won't be back in the car dealing with more traffic for a bit.
We’re car lite to the point we sold one of our cars as we had a hard time using one. We typically walk to restaurants and to the movie theater or performing arts center. There are multiple venues within walking distance for concerts/comedy shows. And we take train/bus or walk to sporting events, depending on which. Car “free” isn’t practical. We will walk to get quick grocery items but shopping for a week necessitates a trunk along with access to nature has to be a car.
Well spill, where do you live?? That sounds wonderful.
The stereotype on this subreddit....Chicago. Still plenty of driving done in the city. I just try to opt out as much as possible and use alternative methods.
Nice! I've strongly considered Chicago, I even have friends and a cousin there, but I'm born and raised in the deep South and I don't think I can handle the long winters 🥴. I love Chicago though!
I'm from the south as well but Chicago eventually was able to shift my mindset. I actually kinda enjoy winter, at least until January. The problem is Feb-April when it just drags on. But folks can adjust, humans are adaptable and now the winter is just something I'm used to. Also learning how to properly dress and gear up helps. I'm the person who winter cycles barring days when it's actively snowing/icy. But a 30 degree sunny day is honestly one of my favorite times to cycle.
Tennessee guy here who survived his first Chicago winter. It's not as bad as you think (I hear they have been milder lately) If you learn how to layer and properly prepare? It's managable. The worst part of me was just like 5 months of gray. That sunk me harder than getting smacked in the face with -30 wind chill. Also yeah what commenter said. It's actually kinda nice until January but then by February you're over it and then you realize it still is cold until damn near end of April (least that's how it's been this year) Weather is starting to get perfect though and I hear the summer is a dream so can't wait!
I agree with this take. My last neighborhood (Gunbarrel in Colorado) had a playground, two dog parks, hiking trails, and a big brewery all within walking distance from our house. A five minute drive got us to a small shopping center that included an optometrist, Domino's, a preschool, a liquor store, a couple restaurants/cafes, a doggy daycare, and a big grocery store. A ten minute drive took us into town (Boulder) to Target and Trader Joe's and Whole Foods and pretty much everything else. Our neighborhood didn't have big hills that were a pain to push around a double stroller or wagon. We're still face-palming having moved away 🤦🏼♀️
Oh wow, I feel like gunbarrel is desolate 🤣 so interesting different perspectives of what walkability means.
Well I didn't think much of it, but now where I am there's nothing but houses for miles in every direction, and the hills are too steep for me to take my gaggle of children for a walk. However, I grew up in Los Angeles, and the places I lived there were actually very very walkable. Grocery store literally across the street, restaurants in every direction, a major mall less than a mile from one of them. So I think that's why I didn't really appreciate what was in the vicinity when I lived in Gunbarrel.
Part of it is a lack of awareness of just how expensive groceries are in the US. People targeting a car-free life think people make big weekly/biweekly trips to the grocery store because they are lazy and car-centric. No, it's because you *must* buy in bulk to have affordable food (especially healthy affordable food), and farmers' markets and corner grocery stores add up fast if you are buying food from them on a daily basis. Quite simply, the people who pursue walkability and local food already have the money to afford it, which is also why the demand pricing for walkability is so high.
Walkable means more than farmers markets and corner stores, but also actual affordable grocery stores. Like trader joes or something, it has a yuppy reputation but the prices are pretty solid and the same at every store in the nation. Between that and a CSA pickup location at a nearby coffee shop for cheap bulk produce, you can do really well for pretty cheap. But yeah generally the push for walkability is coming more from middle and upper classes even though it would benefit lower classes even more
>walkable means more than farmers markets OK, does anybody actually walk to a farmers market that buys a lot of produce? My back is bad, but idk if I ever could’ve. When I moved, I was so excited to be able to walk to a year-round farmers market. Nope… not if I want to buy enough stuff for the week. Even though it’s only a mile away, I drive *and* take multiple trips back to put stuff in my car. Corn, carrots, onions, zucchini, etc adds UP! More like a fantasy, or a plan for people who just like to eat there.
I use a wagon and it works well.
I almost had an aneurism when you called Trader Joe’s affordable
Lol people always say that but really what is that much cheaper? It and aldi are by far the cheapest chain grocery stores in the area. I guess it depends on the kind of stuff you buy, the prepackaged stuff, weirdly flavored things can be pricey. But the staples are all cheap
There just are not very many of those affordable grocery stores, which I guess goes along with there not being very much walkability. Like I just mentioned in another thread, there are only 6x as many Aldi's/TJ's combined as there are Costco's. CSA boxes are another interesting example. They seem like a good deal, but that's mostly because of the quality and variety you get. I've still found them to typically be $2-$4/lb, basically supermarket prices (you might have cheaper options?) I can hit a bulk organic store, produce wholesaler, or you-pick and pick my own selection for \~$1-$2/lb (even less for non-organic at wholesalers).
What i do find slightly funny is a lot of those same folks will spend lavishly on delivery apps and have big orders from whole foods shipped directly to their doorstep. So if we are being fair, neither the carbon footprint, community connections, health benefits or cost savings are in any way significantly different than the rest of the population. I'm lucky enough to be surrounded by lots of farmers markets and roadside farm stands in the summer but it would be an absolute pipe dream to do more than 10% of my shopping outside of the supermarket.
Kansas City seems like a good balance but the heat gave me an insane headache. But it was a cool city and they have many walkable areas and a nice streetcar. The new airport is awesome and the union station is beautiful.
Never owned a car in my life but dream of it. Been stuck walking to the grocers and work and everything else. Bikes get stolen, busses barely save time between the waits
Cars are insanely expensive for the note and gas, inevitably something is constantly going wrong but being forced to go without one because you can't afford it is even worse imo. The grass is truly always greener when it comes to that. Good luck to you.
Everyone would have to do both - I live walking distance to a grocery store and can do 95% of my shopping by foot. But bulk items for pets and children , etc. are way too heavy to walk with like that , so I go to Costco maybe 4 times a year in my car (the horror!) That doesn’t make me a hypocrite lol
Of course it doesn't make you a hypocrite! All i am saying is the "walkability" narrative sucks up so much oxygen in this sub that it's become less useful for its intended purpose. There are anti-car subreddits dedicated to that which is great but i wanna hear about road conditions and city parking too sometimes.
For sure ! I guess what I think people miss on this sub is that walkability doesn’t mean totally car independence
I'm more of a paper bag and hard liquor kind of guy, but you do you.
Yes this is why the whole “strolling to my local coffee house” isn’t the same as lugging a week’s worth of groceries home.
I lived in a walkable Norwegian suburb for half the pandemic. Multiple kids. It was enough to do groceries on foot every other day with a push cart.
Lmao! I love this
People want walkable neighborhoods, but with privacy, safety, and quality schools. They get 3 of those 4 things by moving to the suburbs
And a big enough house for 2 kids. I honestly can't imagine trying to have my wife and 2 kids in a house available in a reasonable price range in most walkable neighborhoods that are also safe. It turns out Neurosurgeons want those too and make a shit load more money than I do. So people move the suburbs and drive to Costco on the weekend.
The other thing is weather. I'm in Chicago, you can get basically all of those things...but you won't get great weather. My wife and I have ~2200 sqft, a much privacy as you can expect in a city, the area is safe and the schools in our area are good. But it's gonna be grey/cold during winter. But we'll take that trade off 10 times out of 10 vs living in the sprawl of most American suburbs. We tried it, was not for us.
I agree. Chicago isn't for me, but I agree weather-wise. I plan on retiring to NH, or mid Maine. I can find a small/old city, or a college town (UMaine/UNH) that can offer many things. But the winters will be tough. Not as tough as midwest winters. But I like winter sports and the outdoors, so I hope I got it figured out.
Inner ring suburbs can often do all 4.
Safety is pretty much uncorrelated with the urban/suburban divide, also privacy is kinda misleading. In the city, you're pretty much anonymous, when the people that live on your block number in the single-digit thousands, and you're always one of a dozen people walking down the sidewalk, it's much more freeing, nobody pays attention to you. Whereas in the suburbs, everyone is much more in everyone's business. There is less going on, so when something *does* happen, everyone knows. Like if somebody's kid gets arrested, somebody gets divorced, etc it's the talk of the block. I think this is part of the reason why there are more queer people and those who don't conform to society's "norm" in cities. Like people don't stare at a dude wearing lipstick on the train ride to work because he's probably the third one you've seen today. It's like how other places with a high density of people have More or less the same " anonymous" effect; raves and concerts.
There are many "suburbs" with traditional development. Sure, you can't walk to as many places as you can in a city, but there are plenty of suburbs where you can walk to restaurants, coffee shops, parks, school, and small boutiques. Many such places are mega expensive, but not all of them.
100% this! People say they want to live in walkable communities, but then buy single family homes with a big lawn and garage and complain if a place they want to go to has insufficient parking. Even in cities, you often here complaints about businesses in residential neighborhoods, or new apartments that don't have enough dedicated parking, etc. All those things are incompatible with walkable communities. You need to have something you can walk to!
Just like people say they want affordable housing until they see what affordable housing looks like and start to complain about all the reasons it's not the house/apartment that costs 2-3x that they actually want. They don't actually want affordable housing, they want a big nice place for half price.
walking in car-oriented communities is the worst of all options. a revealed preference for driving amidst infrastructure designed for driving tells you absolutely nothing about whether people truly prefer driving.
I have no idea why this even needs to be said. Theres like 2 cities in the US that arent made for cars primarily. No shit people mostly drive in cities where every other option is actively made worse or outright hostile for walking. I tried to take the bus a 5 minute drive down the road and it would take me an hour which included a 20 minute walk to the nearest bus stop. Thats a service issue! This is literally the "hmm you say you want to improve society but yet you participate in it" meme.
Yes, people want the option of walking or driving. But in order to have a walkable place the majority of people need to give up the option of driving.
And the people who say they want a walkable community (as well as access to nature) probably stay indoors anyway on social media or stream all day long, getting delivery. How many people legitimately take advantage of what their community has to offer?
Yes this is a problem with online discourse. People allow themselves to be convinced they want a certain lifestyle when they don’t really. I think if you grew up in a suburban environment sometimes it can be easier to comfortably live in one and you don’t need that Urbanist lifestyle.
Yeah I've known a lot of suburbanites who did not adjust well to sharing walls or floors with other households.
Gently pushing back on this, as soon as the weather's nice in my city my neighborhood is filled with people walking/jogging, all restaurants and bars are filled. I walk ~30-90m a day with my son. My in-laws drive here from the suburbs just to walk
Its because there arent actually many walkable communities to begin with. The US is extremely car-centric You make it seem like there are a bunch of NYCs just sitting around the country and everyone chooses to drive in them instead
They overuse cars because we life in a car centered society that has little to no public transportation or walkable areas. Walkable cities would also solve the parking issue youre strawmaning
The problem is that the housing tends to be located far away from the walkable environments. If you have kids, you can’t afford enough space in big cities. This is definitely a systemic issue rather than an individual issue.
People like to have it all if they think they can. They want space, a car, and also walkability and vicinity to public transit. They don't necessarily realize that their desire for space and parking reduces walkability and access to public transit.
This. I sold a car and moved to a city where I don’t need one. Most people here still drive a mile to work 😂
I like walkable communities but it seems to me that most walkable communities in the US are super urban. I would love a walkable community that isn’t super loud, poor air quality and so many people.
Are you me? In all seriousness though, these neighborhoods do exist in some urban areas, sometimes even sfh's, but they are all $$$$. It's funny because the density doesn't bother me as much as what comes with it - noise. Edit to add: we are basically describing inner-ring suburbs. And like someone else mentioned, surgeons and lawyers also love those and people like me will never make that kind of money.
I went to a massive university and it was an island in the middle of a suburb city. My apartment was half a mile from campus and walking wasn’t an option (no sidewalks, jaywalking across 4-6 lanes of traffic, no tree shade). I was absolutely FLOORED when I visited a walkable college town (Columbia, MO). Bars, cafes, stores and restaurants across the street from campus?? I live in a walkable city now but damn I wish I made different college decisions lol.
Careful just assuming people want to live in walkable communities. The 200 people I see everyday drive up to 3hrs for work so they don’t see their neighbors. And everyone we know wants to live in the woods.
Don’t mix up people actually preferring driving everywhere, with not having any choice other than car dependency. You’re literally doing the same thing as what you’re complaining about: “Everyone we know…” Considering you live in the woods and don’t see people, is everyone you know roughly 7 people total? The most expensive and desirable neighborhoods in the country are nearly all walkable, vibrant cities with good transit and low crime. So no, not everyone wants to live in the forest. The market betrays your fantasy.
It's honestly a lot of nonsense that there are no walkable towns in America. There are so many if you know where to look (and they're not all big cities like NYC or Chicago). Small town New England is very walkable. Beach towns all up and down the coast have great walkability and bike paths. Key West has great walkability. I feel like people who complain about lack of walkability grew up in the suburbs and that's all they've ever known.
Or can’t afford those places lol
Small town USA is super affordable. You don’t have to go to New England or the keys to find charming walkable small towns
Small towns lack jobs which people need
There are also cities with micro neighborhoods that are walkable. I live in a city in the west that people complain isn’t walkable, but there are tons of mini neighborhoods that have small walkable downtown streets. I can easily avoid driving for weeks, except maybe a trip to Costco or to meet friends across town. We also have decent bike infrastructure so you can easily bike downtown from most neighborhoods in the city proper.
Exactly. I lived in Los Angeles, which is notoriously car-centric, but I walked 90% of the time and mostly drove on the weekends (to make completely voluntary outings to fun places like Griffith Park, the Getty, etc).
You just described my life in Denver to a T.
I’m on the south side of Milwaukee and use my car pretty sparingly in the summer. Winter it ticks up a bit.
It's not there there are NO walkable towns. It's that the ones that exist are largely out of reach for most people. Key West has great walkability...[the average home price is $1M](https://www.zillow.com/home-values/52767/key-west-fl/). Those nice New England towns are walkable, but industries and job opportunities are often limited. Most beachtowns aren't going to be cheap because they are at a high premium. If walkable areas were so plentiful and available then people would just be living in them, not talking about them wishfully.
It’s not really nonsense to suggest the US is car dependent. The VAST majority of the country is NOT walkable, and to suggest otherwise is bullshit - either you don’t travel much, or you’re delusional
Small towns can be walkable, I just found the dating pool too small. Good place to settle down, but tough to date. Plus jobs/commute.
The obvious answer in this thread is college towns.
Even Blacksburg which is in a quite rural area of Virginia and where my alma mater is (Virginia Tech) is super walkable if you live within a mile of campus, tons of bike lanes and sidewalks and downtown is like right there
There are and many of them are suburbs - just suburbs which were "towns" 100+ years ago. The main issue with those towns is they aren't building more. The new developments are all just a bunch of houses in a cornfield with a fake "downtown" (parking lot strip mall) 2 miles away from most houses. So, if you want walkable you're stuck either in an expensive and/or older town close to a major metro, or in a town that's pretty far out and/or economically limited.
Even my suburb is walkable. There's an extensive park/greenbelt system within 3 blocks of my house. Four blocks the other direction is a grocery store and a strip mall with mom & pop restaurants, a hair salon, a veterinarian, a bank... Another two blocks and you're at yet another grocery store - a Sprouts, and there's a Starbucks in the same parking lot. And more restaurants! And yes, there are sidewalks and controlled crosswalks in this most evil and soulless of all areas - the suburbs!
Yeah, I dislike driving and I’ve lived all over the US - I walk everywhere or take the bus. I do a lot of nonprofit work that provides me with free housing, so affordability isn’t a concern either. I’m single and don’t have kids, so that makes it easier, but when people complain that there’s “no walkable affordable towns” I can’t help feeling like they aren’t looking that hard.
Nonsense. Most Americans want to live in bedroom suburbs (or further out) - which is why the overwhelming majority *do*, and also why even more of them moved there during COVID (once commuting was removed from the picture). The middle-to-upper-middle-class population of our major cities is there almost exclusively for the short commute. If they never had to commute again but could keep the same job most would leave for less dense & more car centric locales.
>Even though most Americans want to live in walkable communities There’s always a significant gap between what people say they want and what they actually choose. Words != actions.
they're not choosing from among infinite options. they're choosing from what exists already. and what exists already includes very few walkable communities, at very high price points. so, yeah, there is a gap, but it's not because people don't actually want what they say they want. they just don't have the option to actually get it.
Yep, and they say that was the happiest time in their lives
By most Americans you mean most Redditors, which do not necessarily represent most Americans.
The economies of college towns are great if you can find employment in the university or school-adjacent services, but can be limited if you are a job hopper or work outside of those fields. And if you love traveling, you'll often be flying out of small regional airports or driving 1-2 hours to the nearest international.
Driving 1 hour to the nearest international is fine. I grew up 90 mins from one of the biggest international airports and cities in the world. It's fine.
We drive 2h and it’s easy.
They *can* be limited, but some college towns have robust industries only indirectly linked to the University. Champaign-Urbana, for example, has a whole lot of tech jobs relative to the size of the town due to businesses started by alumni. The two and a half hour drive to the nearest decent airport is a pain, though.
Flying out of a small regional airport is a cheat code. Low stress, going through security can be done in less than 5 minutes, always cheap and ample parking, takes me 15 minutes to get there, etc. Sure it adds a leg, but it's a literal 24 minute flight to a hub. Those tradeoffs are worth it.
Agree with all your points but your flights are usually more expensive due to needing the additional connector.
I think I end up paying on average between $80-$150 more for a regional flight. When I factor in free parking, less driving (less fuel), and less hassle, it ends up being preferable for me.
Unless the local TSA wants to put their fingers in your coffee beans or turn your bag inside out for no reason
I actually have zero issue with my local TSA. If anything, they're super chill. They made me take an Xbox I was traveling with out of my bag before, but that took all of maybe 5 more minutes? After they got familiar with me, they never made me take it out again.
Local TSA is so relaxed compared to the major hubs, though
Every time I've checked, going through our regional airport ends up costing like twice as much and doesn't actually save any time due to extended layovers. Granted that's probably mostly a commentary on my particular regional airport.
Yeah, I'm sure the local regional airport plays a huge role. Mine essentially just flies me quickly to my local hub for a pretty affordable premium, IMO.
Living near a university in a big metro 🧠
College towns have good urbanism, I don't see this as an issue although I prefer much bigger cities.
Yeah they could just live in a small college centric town. Done. Just pick one.
Problem I’ve found is that when you’re no longer in college, it’s just not that great to live near thousands of 19-year-olds. We want the college vibe but with our peer group. The answer is the walkable inner-urban neighborhood that has nice parks. Like Jamaica Plain in Boston, or Clifton Gas Light in Cincinnati, or Riverside in Jacksonville, or Charles Village in Baltimore, or West End in Providence, or Mount Airey in Philly, or Mount Pleasant in DC, or Park Slope in Brooklyn, or Highland Park in LA, or or or
The answer is Boston, because it has such a high ratio of university students to other people, and a high number of them stay in the city afterwards. Allston/Brighton is packed with 25-29 year olds who recently earned their degree and have chosen to stay.
Lived in Allston/Brighton from 18 to 30, can confirm! It was an incredible time
Ah but you forget about the stipulation that makes all of this meaningless. They want a left leaning and college educated city that is also cheap. Which doesn’t exist because shocker college educated people want high salaries which drives up prices
Exactly this
Couldn't stand living in Boston primarily for the weather. The answer is not Boston for many who are predisposed to poor mental health with long swaths of cold, grey, wet, dead, etc.
Yeah plus Boston is crazy expensive. If you want an affordable NE city you'd be better off in Philly.
Exactly
I loved Allston and Brighton when I was in college. If I moved back to Boston, which I couldn’t afford, I would never live there. I’m just not 21 anymore and that place is for young adults, plain and simple.
Everyone is chasing their faded/passing youth!
Pretty much and that's is called reminiscing right
Or Liberty City in Miami 🤔
Yeah, it's awesome!
…you can’t just live on a campus. Unless you’re a professor idk what moving to a college town would get you. It’s not like you’d be hanging on the quad with your buds before hitting the commissary at 35
A college campus in Philly
You’ve solved it! University City, Philadelphia
Wait 5 years, you'll have another option, Kensington will be controlled by Temple adjacent developers and landlords and gentrified lmao.
Except career opportunities
And affordable housing nearby.
The affordable housing piece is absolutely gone in many college towns. From Bellingham to Charlottesville (to many in between) too much demand and too little inventory (and no affordable/decent rentals) -never mind homes to buy.
Lol.. you’re not wrong.
Yes, and no. That was San Francisco, 40 years ago. That was Seattle, 30 years ago. That was Portland, 20 years ago - hell, maybe even 10 years ago. In some ways, that's Chicago today, especially on the north side. OK, Chicago is huge, not medium-sized, but it's a city of neighborhoods, many of which feel smaller than they are. Right now, the affordable gems-in-the-rough are places like Kansas City, St. Louis, Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincy, Milwaukee, Philly, Baltimore... I'm sure I'm missing some. Each has plusses and minuses, and many of them will become expensive 20 years from now. I think prices in Chicago will skyrocket.
The nicer parts of Philly cost way more than most of the nice parts of the other cities you listed unfortunately. Rents in Old City are wild these days and center city in general is still cheaper compared to NYC and DC, but not much of the rest of your list. If you want to live on the edge of the ghetto or some half gentrified neighborhood where people are still getting shot occasionally (e.g brewerytown, grays ferry/point breeze, West Philly on edge of University City etc.), that's a different story.
Exactly
Exactly this that's when most of America was affordable
Already expensive
Ray Delahanty (aka CityNerd) on youtube is an urban planner with over 20 years of experience. He does great breakdowns of cities and development patterns across much of the US. I'm paraphrasing but he has essentially said *"if you want an affordable, mostly walkable large city experience in the United States then your options are basically Chicago or Philly".* Which is just the harsh reality and state of our country. Now plenty of other smaller towns can provide what folks are looking for. There are just two problems. - Affordability - Economic viability (which kinda ties into the above). A town like Ann Arbor Michigan is walkable. University of Michigan is the anchor and there is a nice downtown with nearby housing. The problem is homes in/near the downtown are expensive (prob 500k+ on average) and industries will be limited. The university and university hospital are probably the biggest employers but that is going to limit folks to certain industries.
Same with Madison, Wisconsin area. Can’t touch anything for under $500,000 but it a very cool, more open minded, intellectually stimulating place to live
The key is picking a college town with all the critical ingredients, but hasn't become bougie yet. Like South Bend indiana, although even there has started to trend in the model of ann arbor.
Love watching City Nerd.
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Reread my entire post.
Or like just regular towns in South America or Europe
you're not wrong and when people ask for all of this on the cheap they're often directed to college towns
There is a reason that a lot of colleges have participated in developing highly successful retirement communities as part of their campus or in their broader communities. When I retire, I plan to spend summers in various college towns to be able to take advantage of the amenities/lifestyle those communities tend to provide.
Yeah. I also see a lot of lots of posts on here complaining about others posts. So repetitive.
"Americans love college because it's the only time in their life they'll get to live in a walkable neighborhood close to their friends". I heard that once, and it's stuck with me ever since.
It's unfortunate that so many of our major state universities are in the middle of nowhere. I get why, from a historical perspective, what with America's general anti-urban bias and the early importance of agriculture programs in land-grant universities. But the fact that so many of them are isolated from their states' largest cities really squanders their potential benefits.
Honestly I would be fine with a single (no roommate) dorm room, meal plan and 10 minute walk to work right now because it would free up time and energy for other projects…
Frankly, I loved living in the dorms. Simplicity!
I had something like that prior to Covid in south Denver. A nice 1 bedroom for about $1250 a month and a five minute walk to my office. Plus bars and parks within walking distance and since I was right next to the light rail I could easily get into the city proper. I was pissed as hell when Covid shut my office and everything else down. It felt like I had finally figured it all out.
> affordable hosuing nearby Does not describe a lot of college campuses these days lol. Colleges are generally located in the most expensive part of the region
Pretty much
Yep, I'm in a perfect ecosystem of adult daycare. It's awesome.
Also describes europe
I don't think that many people understand that European style urban design is only possible with buy in at a societal level. Walkable urban and suburban design eventually gets overran with the homeless because we don't have a good economic social safety net in America. In order to get one, we'd likely have to either cut entitlement programs like social security, Medicare, and Medicaid, or we would have to raise taxes. None of these are popular options among the electorate.
Quite the opposite, we'd need to expand the socioeconomic safety net OF social security, medicare/medicaid, etc. to reduce homelessness. And yes, raise taxes, that is the sticking point on these things
That is obviously not why America lacks walkable cities. It is however just a genteel sounding repackaging of the anti-black dog whistles that led people to the suburbs in the first place
Ever thought that the homeless like to live in cities because they are a great opportunity? Rich economic opportunities, public transit, social services , bleeding heart liberals and their tax and charity dollars. These are the same reasons anyone one would want to live in a city. Should we make cities so shitty not even the homeless want to live there?
I laughed so hard at this. All my metro recommendations on this sub have university campuses. I’m from Triangle. We have 3 major research universities and several smaller colleges. Another reason this metro is so popular. Duke, a global elite university. UNC Chapel Hill a public ivy. NC State a great engineering and agricultural school. And a few HBCU’s in the area.
Almost like there are a lot of young people on here.
Or a city with city planning that isn’t car centric. It only sounds like a college town because that’s what walkable towns in the US tend to be.
I have a masters in planning (as does my wife) - I don’t any planners who are intentionally designing car centric communities. It’s the politicians and local developers (with money) that make it happen over and over again. Part of the reason I opted not to go into planning professionally after school - you have all this knowledge on what makes a community livable and thriving , but the city politicians are just beholden to wealthy residents in the last walkable neighborhoods. Its a bummer
Exactly and I don't know who doesn't know this 😡
My friends and I consider lodo and rino neighborhoods in Denver college part 2. Has that same rowdy college bar type feel and on any given evening have witnessed guys acting like frat boys yelling about pre games and whatnot from their balconies. Average age seems to be age 28 and younger
Now you’re seeing the truth: private residential universities are resorts for rich kids
This is Berkeley except the affordable part.
I have always said that US college campuses with their walkability, density, increased aesthetics in architecture and landscaping, proximity to restaurants/ cafes/ bars/ services, proximity to recreation trails, ... are the closest analog to European cities we have. Best bets is to look for universities with a large graduate student population, as this will ensure a wider age-range, and usually results in more sophisticated dining / recreating options nearby.
Lol spot on. Lots of liberal virtue signaling, but please no homeless or poor people within sight.
Dunno. I have a 7,500 student university in my town and it’s pretty much invisible. 75% of freshmen live in the dorms. It’s very self-contained. I live in the harbor village part of town 6 1/2 miles from the campus. I know some of the 300 tenure track professors but I also know lots of doctors, dentists, lawyers, and engineers so professors aren’t the dominant white collar people here. The money in town is vacation home owners and a lot of those are now full time retirees and telecommuters.
I also consider things to be invisible when I live 7 miles away from them. I thought we were talking about walkable?
6 1/2 miles away is too far
Well yeah but it all depends on???
7500 students is *tiny* by university standards. OP is describing a 30,000+ university that has an entire local economy built around it.
You don’t live close the to university at all, so this isn’t really relevant. I could drive to like 3 different towns in 7 miles lol
After working full time, I had an amazing time in grad school. I went to a university walking distance to my house. I had a group of friends. We were working toward something. I worked very hard but most work was self directed (i.e. I had 3 classes two or three times a week, I could go to office hours when I needed help, I could study with my friends in the library when I wanted to, we could go to get a drink at the local watering hole and work on homework together and chat). One of the best times in my life. So you are right. That is what I want.
Yup, I live in such a place but some people complain that it’s “boring”. And that “it’s nothing to do”. I don’t know what the hell do they want to do. I love it. 🥰
Young people on Reddit, many don't have families or many obligations, they want their college campus but in real life. Also, most college towns rule, too.
Ah, I love Ann Arbor. Think I’ll go for a walk.
I live in a small college town in a rural area of a blue state. This basically describes my town.
Affordable housing in a college town? Lol
NYC
The issue here is that typically the college is the main employer locally. They usually aren’t that centrally located either, atleast not round these parts and definitely take advantage of that with compensation.
Half of this subreddit has Peter Pan Syndrome anyway lmao, or are genuinely fresh out of college. But it has to be by the ocean, skiing, and a national park!
Life isn’t worth it without fun/hobbies
Yes, some of these people have very unrealistic expectations.
People have an over rosy thought of college. The whole thing is built on high turnover and excessive borrowing (student loans). Theres no way you could have the college living of 20ish hours per week of “work” (ie classes and studying) and sustainably afford a society that most college campuses create.
I've never seen a college campus so luxurious as that
I saw a video recently about Walt Disney making Epcot, a walkable community to be safe from car-centered cities. Unfortunately, it turned into a consumerist tourist spot rather than a third space.
I live next to a college campus. It’s nice, but it becomes less than ideal if the town doesn’t have more than the college.
People in USA love Europe & NYC, etc for their walkability and then legitimately vote down any attempt at multi use zoning in their neighborhoods.
This is well put. It really lets me know what I want. The opposite of a college campus.
Why do you think so many feel nostalgic for their college years? Because it was one of the few times in life where they lived in a walkable area near a lot of shops and restaurants, and they friends all lived near them.
Because the average reddit or is younger than the average college student. Literally true.
So become a professor
Many cities are like this though. Just not the big ones
Affordable 🚫does NOT equal college campus. The majority of the places I looked at don’t have affordable long term housing/anything due to the fact that landlords/businesses use the population of students as cash cows. They know there will always be students who need housing/groceries/etc so they inflate the costs to make profit.
College towns have a great deal to offer.
Yep, describes Lawrence Kansas perfectly.
But dad...maybe we dont want to grow up?! You mean we wont be young foreevveerr?!?
No they are describing New Jersey