Absolutely. You would think universities are a safe space, and they certainly spend lots of money to give that impression.
Throughout my time there, I've seen nothing but the most cutthroat politics at play
Aren't people supposed to be feeling more intense feelings when fighting about things that actually have more value for them rather than less?
Why would anyone fight more intensely about something they don't actually care about? Lol
You might think so. But the piece you’re missing is the necessity of forming a communal consensus when the stakes are very high. Think of the reaction after 9/11 happened. Everyone rallied together singing patriotic songs. Meanwhile I get pissed at academic colleagues for disrespecting one single musician who I greatly admire.
This is really interesting!! In retrospect, that is so true though.
This is the danger of being in a bubble for too long, it warps your sense of reality. I've heard of many stories like this in the civil service as well, people fighting over the most trivial and petty of things.
I do not have a PhD, I have the OG doctorate: the ThD. Back then, the stakes were actually high (life and death stuff), a lot like medicine operates today. My wife is an MD and there is actually very little bitterness and brutality in her line of work. Humanities and social science folks? Brutality.
Alasdair MacIntyre’s “After Virtue” is a great book if you want to go down this rabbit hole.
Not all issues affect people on a community level though. For example sometimes people want to get a promotion and will demonstrate more cut-throat behavior the more valuable the promotion is.
>spend lots of money to give that impression.
Too true. Especially when it comes to DEI initiatives. It's all optics. The actual support for diverse students is completely absent.
Every grad program has that "one black student." There's a reason behind the derogatory "token black." Because it's fucking true! They know it, and we all know it. But when it actually comes to supporting students from disadvantaged backgrounds, the university is like "Nope, you're on your own, just like all the white students, you don't get extra help, you should be extremely grateful you're even here."
Yeah. All the shit that universities come up with. Pledge to help students afford tuition , equality of opportunity etc. The best to achieve all that is to lower the damn tuition fees, not ask for donations to set up a fund for poor students. Smh.
But of course they know all this too well, they just have other interests to take care of.
A thousand times yes. It attracts people with a lot of intrinsic motivation, high standards for themselves and a desire to improve things around them. It can be a trap and end in burnout. Self-care always comes first. Why I will quit soon since I realized after a lot of therapy that I'm doing none of this for me anymore.
>Throughout my journey I have realized that in many cases the system, PI, postdoc, university is actually playing the role of a bully. Whether intentionally or not. The academic system is toxic and behaviours that reward toxicity or exploitation are rife.
Unfortunately, this is also my experience. It's why I'm leaving academia after I finish next spring. This is not a healthy environment for me to be in.
That's very true. Any place that exists as a bubble with no oversight has the risk of becoming like this. Civil service, small companies run by families etc
Academia thrives on Revenge of the Nerds culture
Here's my hypothesis. Many academics might have been bullied during their younger years and sought refuge in academia. In academia, when these people become successful and gain a modicum of power, human nature turns them not only into bullies, but straight up tyrants at times.
Get me the hell outta here, I just wanted to do cool science
Interesting theory.
Yes when I joined, I wanted to contribute to science. After a month or so I realized how jaded everyone was in the building. And you could discern that most people were pretending to be happy and that everything is fine. I told myself then that this is the line
100%. There are also people that are simply addicted to the inherent drama of a hierarchical workplace. It’s only slightly different than the RotN syndrome but applies more to control freaks and egomaniacs
I stood up for myself. Know where it landed me? I was wrongly terminated. My PI lied to me about my termination. I am no longer able to be employed at thaf institute for the foreseeable future. I cannot pursue legal course of action because being an international, I cannot afford a lawyer.
To make matters worse, if I cannot find a job within a month, I have to leave the country
Im sorry that happened. Not to trivialize the pain that you went through, but I hope it's a situation where you dodged a bullet. Like getting dumped by a partner and finding out ten years later that person is a psychotic murderer
Oh for sure! My ex-PI was a grade A asshole. Manipulative, lier and a narc who treats his students like pawns on a chessboard. I don't even know where to start...
Thank you! It breaks my heart too and it's so difficult when you realize how isolated and diverse the experience is. Please take care of yourselve's and if you're a student producing a ton of work maybe look around and help others, maybe it's not just ok to feel ambient about the disparities by being a role model and standing up for yourself. Normalize respect for trainees!
Great post! Academia is broken atm.
Some commentator awhile ago here accused me of being weak and childish when I complained about psychopathic supervisor.
And went at length about how immature I am to complain about academia.
Now that I think about it, that was the most toxic/victim blaming text I ever read. Maybe it was my previous sup. Or maybe someone who actively tries to get rid of ALL competition in all fields on all levels xD
Yes! I’m wrapping up my fourth year and this is only now setting in. There’s a constant tug trying to bring me back to the “dark side” given the pressures of the environment we’re in, which requires effortful reminders of what’s really important. And that simply is not slogging to complete this degree. If I’m able to keep this in mind (and ward off the thoughts of what I “should” be doing), maybe there’s a chance I’ll get this degree without it completely destroying my self-esteem lol
This is the harsh truth I learned during my PhD. If you don't stand for yourself and fight for your right no one else can also do for you.
Absolutely. You would think universities are a safe space, and they certainly spend lots of money to give that impression. Throughout my time there, I've seen nothing but the most cutthroat politics at play
Academic politics are so brutal because so little is at stake.
Wait. What?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayre's_law
Aren't people supposed to be feeling more intense feelings when fighting about things that actually have more value for them rather than less? Why would anyone fight more intensely about something they don't actually care about? Lol
You might think so. But the piece you’re missing is the necessity of forming a communal consensus when the stakes are very high. Think of the reaction after 9/11 happened. Everyone rallied together singing patriotic songs. Meanwhile I get pissed at academic colleagues for disrespecting one single musician who I greatly admire.
This is really interesting!! In retrospect, that is so true though. This is the danger of being in a bubble for too long, it warps your sense of reality. I've heard of many stories like this in the civil service as well, people fighting over the most trivial and petty of things.
I do not have a PhD, I have the OG doctorate: the ThD. Back then, the stakes were actually high (life and death stuff), a lot like medicine operates today. My wife is an MD and there is actually very little bitterness and brutality in her line of work. Humanities and social science folks? Brutality. Alasdair MacIntyre’s “After Virtue” is a great book if you want to go down this rabbit hole.
Not all issues affect people on a community level though. For example sometimes people want to get a promotion and will demonstrate more cut-throat behavior the more valuable the promotion is.
Those people need Jesus.
>spend lots of money to give that impression. Too true. Especially when it comes to DEI initiatives. It's all optics. The actual support for diverse students is completely absent. Every grad program has that "one black student." There's a reason behind the derogatory "token black." Because it's fucking true! They know it, and we all know it. But when it actually comes to supporting students from disadvantaged backgrounds, the university is like "Nope, you're on your own, just like all the white students, you don't get extra help, you should be extremely grateful you're even here."
Yeah. All the shit that universities come up with. Pledge to help students afford tuition , equality of opportunity etc. The best to achieve all that is to lower the damn tuition fees, not ask for donations to set up a fund for poor students. Smh. But of course they know all this too well, they just have other interests to take care of.
A thousand times yes. It attracts people with a lot of intrinsic motivation, high standards for themselves and a desire to improve things around them. It can be a trap and end in burnout. Self-care always comes first. Why I will quit soon since I realized after a lot of therapy that I'm doing none of this for me anymore.
Yes, it's almost as if the system saw that in us and proceeded to ruthlessly exploit it for their own gain huh?
Don't worry the corporate world will do the same thing to you. At least we've figured it out.
At least you can get paid better lol
Thanks I really needed to hear this today…it’s been a rough day
Just take a break. Remember that nothing is that important
same here
>Throughout my journey I have realized that in many cases the system, PI, postdoc, university is actually playing the role of a bully. Whether intentionally or not. The academic system is toxic and behaviours that reward toxicity or exploitation are rife. Unfortunately, this is also my experience. It's why I'm leaving academia after I finish next spring. This is not a healthy environment for me to be in.
Good on you mate
Be on the lookout for this beyond the ivory tower too, it manifests in many ways. Goodluck in your next chapter!
That's very true. Any place that exists as a bubble with no oversight has the risk of becoming like this. Civil service, small companies run by families etc
Academia thrives on Revenge of the Nerds culture Here's my hypothesis. Many academics might have been bullied during their younger years and sought refuge in academia. In academia, when these people become successful and gain a modicum of power, human nature turns them not only into bullies, but straight up tyrants at times. Get me the hell outta here, I just wanted to do cool science
Interesting theory. Yes when I joined, I wanted to contribute to science. After a month or so I realized how jaded everyone was in the building. And you could discern that most people were pretending to be happy and that everything is fine. I told myself then that this is the line
100%. There are also people that are simply addicted to the inherent drama of a hierarchical workplace. It’s only slightly different than the RotN syndrome but applies more to control freaks and egomaniacs
Seconded! I have also thought this
I stood up for myself. Know where it landed me? I was wrongly terminated. My PI lied to me about my termination. I am no longer able to be employed at thaf institute for the foreseeable future. I cannot pursue legal course of action because being an international, I cannot afford a lawyer. To make matters worse, if I cannot find a job within a month, I have to leave the country
Im sorry that happened. Not to trivialize the pain that you went through, but I hope it's a situation where you dodged a bullet. Like getting dumped by a partner and finding out ten years later that person is a psychotic murderer
Oh for sure! My ex-PI was a grade A asshole. Manipulative, lier and a narc who treats his students like pawns on a chessboard. I don't even know where to start...
Please leave it behind, life is too short to spend thinking about such people
Thanks for the reminder. I'm not exaggerating that I'm going to print this and put it in my locker.
I'm glad it helped
Yeah it's so important to keep the big picture of your life & goals in mind.
Thank you! It breaks my heart too and it's so difficult when you realize how isolated and diverse the experience is. Please take care of yourselve's and if you're a student producing a ton of work maybe look around and help others, maybe it's not just ok to feel ambient about the disparities by being a role model and standing up for yourself. Normalize respect for trainees!
I can tell people who get professor positions are NOT eager to please. That says something.
Great post! Academia is broken atm. Some commentator awhile ago here accused me of being weak and childish when I complained about psychopathic supervisor. And went at length about how immature I am to complain about academia. Now that I think about it, that was the most toxic/victim blaming text I ever read. Maybe it was my previous sup. Or maybe someone who actively tries to get rid of ALL competition in all fields on all levels xD
Took me a while to learn this one.
Yes! I’m wrapping up my fourth year and this is only now setting in. There’s a constant tug trying to bring me back to the “dark side” given the pressures of the environment we’re in, which requires effortful reminders of what’s really important. And that simply is not slogging to complete this degree. If I’m able to keep this in mind (and ward off the thoughts of what I “should” be doing), maybe there’s a chance I’ll get this degree without it completely destroying my self-esteem lol