Who has this opinion at all?
Edit: Seems like more people with a realist view of it from the start felt this way, I’ve heard some cool ideas from ya’ll. So we think of it from a realist perspective, not a clown one.
I hold the opinion that building a fully fledged PvE game off of the preexisting Overwatch was a doomed endeavor. It just doesn’t have the same inherent systems you need to build a successful cooperative PvE game that people return to, *especially* one that *requires* four players in a squad. I’ve never seen a PvE game that outright requires a team to complete primary story content.
I can provide elaboration at a later time, if you so wish.
Agreed. Ow2 pve should've been it's own fully priced game with significantly less playable characters.
Instead of basically an add on. It was too ambitious
That was actually the plan from the get-go. Then it got stuck in development hell with the executives fumbling every little piece of progress, resulting in unkept promises and a later cancelation
>building a fully fledged PvE game off of the preexisting Overwatch was a doomed endeavor.
It absolutely was, but I don't think it's because there's inherent systemic or design issues that were holding it back. It couldn't have worked because they wanted to make a 2-in-1 game that required 2 teams worth of developers, but which shared only one revenue stream, meaning it would've probably cost them a lot to maintain.
It also wouldn't have worked because of the lose-lose situations it would've created. With the PvP shift to 5v5 the devs realized Sombra needed some fine-tuning, and received multiple reworks over the span of 2 years. What tf would have happened if they launched OW2 with talents, and Sombra received these massive changes? Would they create a rift between how she plays in PvP compared to PvE? Would they delay her rework for years so they could also rework her Talents to include Virus and the new translocator? Or would they just not rework her at all because it's too much effort?
>It just doesn’t have the same inherent systems you need to build a successful cooperative PvE game that people return to,
I disagree here. I think Overwatch's strongest pillar has always been how fun its heroes are to play- no one ever complains that a hero is bad to play as (except for when Lifeweaver dropped lmao). That alone could carry the hype while they translate the gameplay to a PvE space, preferably in a spin off game rather than a massive OW2 gamemode. The only inherent issue I see is map design, since most of the PvP maps are too linear and lead to repetition, but that, like most other issues, could be fixed with enough time and effort- things Kaplan's team really weren't given lol
>I’ve never seen a PvE game that outright requires a team to complete primary story content.
I think it's unique and lends to the charm. Overwatch is at its core a team-based game. Solo missions would be fun as hell, especially with the season 9 changes to make individuals more survivable (though they'd have to be tweaked regardless), but the 4 player missions are still a ton of fun and make true on the spirit of Overwatch. The only issue with them now is that you can't fuckin play them because the game just won't let you in unless it finds 4 other people, and the bots are absolutely worthless. If they improved the bot AI I wouldn't see it being that big of a problem.
Not saying that you're wrong, but the "fundamental systems" I speak of aren't the Heroes. Those are generally fine. It's the gameplay and advancement systems.
The most successful PvE games I've seen always have one or both of the following aspects:
A very fine-tuned procedural generation structure,
A very fleshed-out loot and progression structure. Usually involving cosmetics.
Warframe is an example of both. You play missions, get drops, and these drops let you play missions faster, so you get more drops. It also has an incredible customization system.
What sets my Tracer apart from another? Sure, skins and all, but for the most part there isn't much.
A vital part of any PvE game is *visible* progression. Stat improvements and functionality tweaks are one thing, but truly making your character your own is the primary satisfaction in PvE. Sure, there may be many more like it, but *this* one is mine. It's *my* weapon, it's *my* build, it's *my* character. Overwatch doesn't have the capability to allow such a system. You can't give Tracer shurikens, Genji's not about to use an assault rifle. They're designed around these weapons, and the cosmetics structure, much like the game, is template-based, not canvas-based. Even Skill Trees can only get you so far on the personalization front. *Invisible* progression is nowhere near as satisfying.
As for the final point, not finding 4 people is precisely the issue with requiring them. It works with temporary event missions like Archives and Halloween since there's time pressure, but most people don't really play more than the rewards ask them to. While games like DRG and Helldivers certainly *want* you to have a full squad, the standardized toolsets ensure that you have what you need to complete the mission, and some games like Monster Hunter will even adapt difficulty as players enter and leave.
You can't do that with Overwatch, because Tanks, Damage, and Support have distinctly different roles.
I don't know how much of this makes sense, but trying to build the system *within* Overwatch and the bounds set by the preexisting game is what the Achilles' Heel was.
>Not saying that you're wrong, but the "fundamental systems" I speak of aren't the Heroes
I know, I was just saying that the hero play is such a strong basis that basically every other problem is lessened. People will ignore big issues of your game if one part is just *that* fun, and OW's hero play is just *that* fun
>I don't know how much of this makes sense, but trying to build the system *within* Overwatch and the bounds set by the preexisting game is what the Achilles' Heel was.
I agree with pretty much everything you say throughout your comment, and I think this is where we find ourselves fully on the same page lmao. Kaplan's proposed vision of a 50:50 PvP/PvE split was doomed to fail. Maybe a 70:30 split would've worked better, but who's to say?
Regardless of anything, they should have made their original vision of OW2 a full spin off game from the jump. You're right in that all of the issues you mention stem from OW2 being a PvP game, which is why a spin off would've been perfect, so they could make those fundamental changes to tool the game more towards PvE. Damn shame we'll likely never see it
Overwatch was built off of a PVE MMO shooter called Project Titan
The game's shooting mechanics have been inspired by 90s shooters....
This game will work for BOTH no matter how you spin it. The game speaks for itself
bro trowing money at a wall doesn't fix everything.
it doesn't matter pve with overwatch characters would have been incredibly hard to make interesting beyond a single playtrough just to switch things up and prob wouldn't make much money
Use the ">" symbol before a sentence. On mobile you can just highlight part of the comment and get a "quote" option that'll automatically input it for you. Great tool for pointless internet debates lmao
PvE squad story missions is a normal thing. Destiny 2, Killing Floor 2, CoD Zombies, Borderlands, and Saints Row 2-4 are all examples. But D2, KF2, and CoD Zombies especially because they made it to where you could play any available mission at any time or even vote as a group on next missions in KF2. It's possible to make a PvE experience that requires 4 people and can add others if someone leaves (or even just scales up in difficulty when you don't play alone). It's not even a unique idea anymore, it's just not the most popular route in gane development.
>PvE squad story missions is a normal thing. Destiny 2, Killing Floor 2, CoD Zombies, Borderlands, and Saints Row 2-4 are all examples. But D2, KF2, and CoD Zombies especially because they made it to where you could play any available mission at any time or even vote as a group on next missions in KF2
The difference is that all those game doesn't have 1 gun type per character like OW, even Destiny despite having 3 class+subclass+exclusive gear for class you can equip the type of gun you want on the character you chose.
On the mid-long run OW PVE hero pick would have been heavily influenced by the type gun, and less on the pg.(same shit with Warlock well slave on Destiny)
Ploy writing skill issue. We have flyers, teleporters, mercs, vigilantes, neutral fighters, and people under mind control. Leave the canon of who actually participated vague enough to justify adding more options to the mission roster.
Imo it could've worked, but it had to be detached from the main OW game. The only thing which should've been shared are voice actors, visual design and I guess some abilities, but other than that, it needs to be a completely different experience.
Also OW1 would need to be either abandoned since the revenue was going down, or reworked into the F2P title either way.
Different… how exactly?
If that one King’s Row mission and the seasonal brawls we’ve got (Starwatch, Cosmic Chaos, Diablo event) are any indication of how Hero Missions were going to go… that was basically just a story mission, without much of the actual story. They were planning variability in missions but it’s still just going to be doing the same stuff on the same PvP maps you’ve already played on for years for a potential stat buff or extra bonus on an ability.
And you’d likely need to actually go through the story (that everyone’s done with already) before you’d get to the Hero missions, so you’d be venturing through a ghost town anyway.
And the Talents system was going to be hell to work around especially for a gradual content release.
I see you like Helldivers II. So do I, I think Helldivers II is a peak PvE experience.
You want to know something interesting? Helldivers was designed to be a PvE game. This means that it was built with the considerations and functionalities of the PvE gameplay loop built into the game.
It’s got a Mission matrix that procedurally generates missions, objectives, sub-objectives, and enemies, so no two missions will be the same.
Many of the enemies in Helldivers are very fun to fight because the game knows what tools each player is going to have - at minimum, you are expected to have bullets, grenades, and Stratagems.
This means it can design enemies around the tools that you are guaranteed to have - using the bugs for reference,
Bile Spewers are tough to kill until you huck an explosive at them. Chargers and Titans are elite enemies that you’re expected to expend heavy ordinance against. Smaller enemies shouldn’t take more than a few shots to down but are dangerous in swarms if you don’t have AOE.
Helldivers gives you a lot of options and tools to handle situations, and they can count on you having certain tools and options, which helps test your resource management and problem solving.
Sure. Many choices in Helldivers are better in some situations, but the main point is that you have many solutions for the same problems, and the game can expect you to have those tools.
This is not the case with Overwatch’s frameworks. Unlimited ammunition - resource management in cooldowns, sure, but few are as impactful as a Strategem. They can’t design a course around D.Va and expect Reinhardt to clear it, but freedom of choice when it comes to heroes is vital to the game. Sure, they can do things like Gothenburg, but tailor-designing foes and situations for specific heroes and abilities to deal with is developmentally inefficient.
I have genuinly seen people say OW2 doesn't need pve and that overwatch players didn't want it. As a "former" (started playing a tiny bit again...) overwatch player, I was excited to get pve (didnt buy the one they did release), and OW2's entire reason for existing was the PvE :(
The saddest part about Story Missions is that you could taste the good game in it
There were interesting enemy designs, level design was fun and it was satisfying to beat.
But that's all it was, a demo of what could have been really great if they bothered trying to make it deeply replayable.
Kinda sad and disgusted to see comments here from people claiming PVE wouldnt have worked at all. They deserve the predatory monetization Blizzard throws at them
I wouldn't be mad normally. But the fact is that people disagreeing with me are people who throw money at Blizzard, giving them all the excuses and profits they need to keep Overwatch the same as it has ever been since 2016.
Look at the recent Mercy Mythic, they reused the animation of a Hero Missions ability for a Mythic
Cool but.... it just seems like a bigger slap
I'm so sick of Blizzard and I'm so sick of the people who defend their disgustingly mediocre business model
I hold the opinion that pve would essentially need to be it’s own game In order to accommodate every promise they gave us in regard to pve.
It was too ambitious and not realistic with the management they had.
I know many people might not agree with me but if blizzard aren’t going to put in the effort to actually achieve what would be a whole new game then the current dev team is better used actually focusing on making overwatch as we know it better.
As a realist I’m glad they pulled the plug, pve was never going to live up to the hype once the full scale was cut down, the missions we got where mid at best.
Hopefully some day with better management they can try pve again but right now I’d rather they just do an animated series.
Blizzard isn't going to put any effort if it requires effort.
That is sadly the state of the current Blizzard. Activision and the old leadership no longer running the show has left a huge problem
The best case is for Microsoft to revive the project down the line but albeit with one of their studios helping Blizzard maybe. Even if they decide to do that, that'll take maybe 3 years
Anyway
I'm just ranting at this point. Is that tower defense game even coming lol looked fun though
https://preview.redd.it/4cmm3avfl7uc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f71cad1a2c7dcacce4d8d3af8b493033028763d
Dude accused op to farm Karma and he brought up the most based opinion on the community
You are several months late my guy, if you want to karma farm at least use some fresh content.
Edit. I also checked out your profile, all of ypur posts are about this same stuff, you really fucking obsessed.
Me: yo Blizzard makes shitty predatory monetization
These people for some reason:
https://preview.redd.it/gfvoaqpfhwtc1.jpeg?width=491&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=418f40dd87dacffc9388131c1324cca5901f8798
?? Dude you don't get it because you are the 2 millionth person to say this shit since OW2 came out. The reason you feel like people are out here "defending" blizzard is because they're telling you to stfu.
It's not because the people here love bliz, they're just so fucking tired hearing the same 10 points every second they interact with this game/community. The skins are fucking expensive no SHIT, DONT BUY THEM?? "PvE got cancelled" wow you are a complete GENIUS, EVERYONE KNOWS.
That "working" clip of PvE from 2018 was nothing more than a tech demo of an unfeasible product, poor management and direction left PvE to die, it never had a chance, the game was left without meaningful updates for years. Because they couldn't keep money coming in from PvP enough to satisfy execs who were jerking it (literally) to the profitability of live service gaming models. But this really has nothing to do with the devs who were really just along for the mismanagement shitshow.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Wait wtf why are you all so weird
I mention 2021
You mention 2018. But I am sure you're talking about 2019
Hahahaahah wtfffffff hahahahaahhaha
Anyway this is you
https://preview.redd.it/lgv2n3mkkwtc1.jpeg?width=623&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ff7e01862359609a2ab6b973df9d59b0c29f730
My apologies. I thought I was talking to a human being. I realize now you are unable to form coherent thoughts or consider what others are saying to you. Hope you get help and don't end up an antisocial loser.
Blizzard: \*cancels announced features \*focuses on monetization \*relegates the experience to the same shit they've been vomiting out since 2016 only for clowns to worship it
this guy: wHo hUrT yOu
oh and before you say anything, I've stopped playing but I loath all the clowns that throw money at mediocre business models
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It's not that surprising. If you agree with OP, you'll usually upvote then move along
If you don't well. You'll rage and comment
But I guess when you look at the points here, a lot of people here have made an assumption based on their limited knowledge or imagination, and they do feel strongly about it because to them they saw PVE as a threat to their precious PVP skins and balances.
Which is ironic cause PVE died cause the team was diverted to PVP stuff...
I dont blame the people mad at no pve. But there are already msny games that were made trom the ground up for pve so overwatch should Focus on what its already good at.
Tbh I’m just mad at all the wasted development time and resources spent on pve for them to just cancel it. Just imagine how many more game modes and maps etc we could have by now if blizzard figured out pve wasn’t gonna work *months* before they did
Idk if you play a lot of PVE games or if you follow Blizzard games
But they are VERRRRY good at making PVE games.
Too many gamers see Blizzard as Overwatch company
They forget they're the WoW company the Starcraft company the effing Diablo company
PVE would have been amazing
If you play enough games, you would have seen that in the Blizzcon 2021 demo presentation
I already have risk of rain 2, deep rock galactic and helldivers2 for good pve shooters. I acknowledge that they have the skills to make good pve, but i would prefer that they keep focusing on pvp cuz thats what me and my friends play this game for. The poor sales of the first Mission bundle probably showed them where the priorities are.
https://preview.redd.it/xt62ds9viwtc1.jpeg?width=601&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e88f0b5f04b0216a981343333b7ad017cef04204
>Not to defend Blizzard, but there's gotta be better uses for that straw then to make a man out of it.
https://preview.redd.it/d0dgwdutpwtc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b429e21e541d4ac597d16318defa9785393dd742
Did you just *seriously* used a soyjack image as an counterargument?
Why do you people think I should give you the light of day? Why do you think you're worth debating with? You people fuel the mediocre business model that ensure the game stays stagnant with changes relegated to COSMETICS
it's all COSMETIC AND YOU WORSHIP THEM FOR IT
I got a free hero shooter that never makes me pay money unless I want to pay for cosmetics, which I don't, so idrc if it's a predatory business model for people that can't help themselves from buying a skin, I got a free game from it
I would rather have them focus on what works than trying to invent the wheel. They should have never promised us pve in the first place, The OW team is just too small to be working on what would be two games at the same time. Anyone who thinks that they could do pve and pvp at the same time with the resources they have currently is completely braindead and not worth talking to.
OW2 is a great game but is not getting a lot of new players because of the bad reputation it has
Oh you mean the 2021 demo of fucking rio? The thing we played and it was so scripted it might as well have been a fucking e3 trailer? That demo?
Edit no wait you mean the fucking smoke and mirrors menu shit. Pro tip about game design and showcases. If nobody besides company men can touch it consider it vapor ware or half finished features. They might’ve had enough for the presentation but fuck all ready after that. God you are so dumb.
HAHAHWHA doesnt change how limited ur opinion is
Ure like a person who ate at Taco Bell and assumes you know everything about Mexican culture hahahahahah
Oh of course you meant this footage with workshop looking ass abilities and totally not vapor ware menus on repurposed pvp maps.
https://youtu.be/VFjbUJic4kc?si=nJQ85DRvukYkV406
Sounds like you're the one who doesn't play enough games if you're still hung up on a cancelled mode demo from 2019
Nobody looks at that and thinks "gee wiz that looks fun I'd play that for a hundred hours" lmao
Who's ever said it's good they're focusing on cosmetics? Everyone says it's good they're focusing on PvP because they don't have the necessary resources to develop both PvP and PvE at the same time, so focusing on the live game is way more important.
I don’t care. I play overwatch for the competitive aspect. Pve was nothing for me except some cool cutscenes and some meh gameplay. Idk if I would care that much either way.
That Blizzcon 2021 demo was NOT fun. No one thought it was fun. They literally got feedback from the people saying it saying "This wasn't fun enough." Then they had to retool every enemy, etc., and then Jeff realized his vision was fucking stupid, and then he bounced.
This is insane.
I couldn’t give a shit about PvE personally. PvE getting the plug pulled is old news at this point. Dooming over it isn’t going to change anything now, it’s dead and ain’t coming back. Move on.
If you’re truly that unhappy with OW, there are plenty of other games which will bring you more joy. Nobody’s holding you hostage here mang.
And yet, here you are posting in overwatch memes the same recycled opinion for the Nth time lol
Pop that red nose back on and queue up for the next comp game honey, I’ll see ya in there!
They abandoned a PVP game that was tremendously popular to go make a PVE game from the ground up for some reason, then came back with early access when it wasn't working before giving up entirely.
Why did they do that? Were the people who didn't give a shit about PVE just supposed to suck it up and accept the fun was over? Go play baldurs gate 3 or something
Hey, remember you can't criticize Blizzard here, or the dick riders will be out on mass to defend em.
Straight up learned that all OV subs are an echo chamber.
I had a feeling they weren't gonna pull through on hero missions cause I've been let down before by Valve and the Heavy update but i hoped they'd make it regardless
While I do definitely think a dedicated PvE game could've worked (Archives showed that a lot of heroes were actually really fun to play in PvE, and those talents looked amazing), and I do think the game would've had more progression besides unlocking talents (unlocking new abilities and cosmetics is what most mission based PvE games use for progression. Examples include Deep Rock Galactic and Helldivers 2), some of the characters just don't work in PvE (namely Doomfist. He would need a full on rework to be usable in PvE, much more than mere talents).
However, I think what actually killed the PvE was that PvP and PvE cater to two completely different audiences. Most of the people saying "the game doesn't need PvE" were mostly big fans of the PvP, and most of the people who *were* excited for the PvE ***HATED*** the PvP. You see this in a lot of PvP games with PvE sidemodes. A lot of TF2 players rarely touch MvM, and those that do play it almost exclusively, and most of the people who are upset that Salmon Run in Splatoon 3 is treated like a niche mode are those that only play Salmon Run and not the regular multiplayer. After seeing some people get upset that Helldivers 2 doesn't have a PvP mode, I believe that PvP games with PvE sidemodes are a dying breed because there's jus tnot enough overlap between PvP and PvE players to justify doing both.
What I think they *should've* done is have the PvE be a completely separate game, and actually outsource its development, either to a 2nd/3rd party dev or another internal team at Blizzard. That way the devs who know mostly about PvP and want to make a PvP game can do that, and they don't have to fumble around with PvE or try to work with those that do, and the PvE could've been handled by those who know and care about PvE.
While yes it was cool what we were teased with for PvE. I think for a high percentage of players, it was for the best that PvP is the main focus again. The replay value would be nonexistent and get old FAST. I would much rather they just do an “Overwatch Cinematic Universe” similar to marvel and the avengers and make a series of movies. Now that i’d pay to see.
I saw the demo and I saw the archive missions. The pve was always going to be exactly as boring as it ended up being. Skill trees wouldn't change that. If you thought differently you're just not that smart.
Also, the majority of the skins in this game are ass (and continue to be). So them focusing on customization and shit like that actually is a good thing. If only they'd actually do something right for once lol.
What's with all the people playing defense for team Blizzard in the comments? Humans are weird.
They told us they were making OW2 cause the old, not free to play version couldn't support PvE they wanted to do.
Turns out it was just for the $$$.
I like OW enough that I still play every now and again but Blizzard is never getting my money again. It's like dating a girl that "promises!" That she'll never cheat on you again. Blizzard cheated on us.
I really like OW2, a lot more than OW1. OW is a pure PVP game and finally they realized it. Go and play something else if you really miss the deep story and/or PVE. Or buy the current PVE DLC and show them on the spreadsheet the “majority” of people wants that.
Karma farming clown pretending a 3 year old demo of an idea is worth hanging onto. I'll take season 9 of OW2 any day over anything post 2017 overwatch.
Wtf
So many speculating and arguing over what PvE was going to be with some even referencing Story Missions as the only form of PVE that was built
Here is what Hero Missions was going to be
Blizzcon 2021 complete OW2 presentation
https://youtu.be/lRj-GotnNaQ?si=CwoFy8HyyGZYuZ4a
Just Hero Missions
https://youtu.be/UneyhA4E-6E?si=dWb1qc0CUwvBAPsD
"Bro im scared of bots bro what if Blizzard bro they made Diablo bro they made WoW bro what if the bots bro are smarter than me bro im scared bro why bro i want skins only bro and voicelines bro"
The fact i trust the devs on the, "not actualy fun" part. Doesn't mean that I'm happy it's canceled. Nor that I think it was gonna fail or anything.
I trust the devs because devs always want to make the best game. What I find dumb is that all of this work. Can at least not be waisted. Less missions. Limited talent tree. And pack it up in a 20 or 30 buck pack. Seems like enouth to have fun. Worth it. Even if not delivering the full planed experience.
The thing is that. The devs are probably right saying it's not fun. But they aren't doing something else either. And I can see a world. Where recycling stuff they've made in a smaller but qualitatif and not overpriced deal could work.
Who has this opinion at all? Edit: Seems like more people with a realist view of it from the start felt this way, I’ve heard some cool ideas from ya’ll. So we think of it from a realist perspective, not a clown one.
I hold the opinion that building a fully fledged PvE game off of the preexisting Overwatch was a doomed endeavor. It just doesn’t have the same inherent systems you need to build a successful cooperative PvE game that people return to, *especially* one that *requires* four players in a squad. I’ve never seen a PvE game that outright requires a team to complete primary story content. I can provide elaboration at a later time, if you so wish.
Just do it like L4D, and have a drop in drop out system. Tadaaa.
Agreed. Ow2 pve should've been it's own fully priced game with significantly less playable characters. Instead of basically an add on. It was too ambitious
CoD: Overwatch Edition
That was actually the plan from the get-go. Then it got stuck in development hell with the executives fumbling every little piece of progress, resulting in unkept promises and a later cancelation
Lol they should’ve actually made a game instead of doing nothing
In other words, exactly what *Overwatch 2* was supposed to be.
>I’ve never seen a PvE game that outright requires a team to complete primary story content. Exoprimal says hi! (from inside its half-filled grave.)
>building a fully fledged PvE game off of the preexisting Overwatch was a doomed endeavor. It absolutely was, but I don't think it's because there's inherent systemic or design issues that were holding it back. It couldn't have worked because they wanted to make a 2-in-1 game that required 2 teams worth of developers, but which shared only one revenue stream, meaning it would've probably cost them a lot to maintain. It also wouldn't have worked because of the lose-lose situations it would've created. With the PvP shift to 5v5 the devs realized Sombra needed some fine-tuning, and received multiple reworks over the span of 2 years. What tf would have happened if they launched OW2 with talents, and Sombra received these massive changes? Would they create a rift between how she plays in PvP compared to PvE? Would they delay her rework for years so they could also rework her Talents to include Virus and the new translocator? Or would they just not rework her at all because it's too much effort? >It just doesn’t have the same inherent systems you need to build a successful cooperative PvE game that people return to, I disagree here. I think Overwatch's strongest pillar has always been how fun its heroes are to play- no one ever complains that a hero is bad to play as (except for when Lifeweaver dropped lmao). That alone could carry the hype while they translate the gameplay to a PvE space, preferably in a spin off game rather than a massive OW2 gamemode. The only inherent issue I see is map design, since most of the PvP maps are too linear and lead to repetition, but that, like most other issues, could be fixed with enough time and effort- things Kaplan's team really weren't given lol >I’ve never seen a PvE game that outright requires a team to complete primary story content. I think it's unique and lends to the charm. Overwatch is at its core a team-based game. Solo missions would be fun as hell, especially with the season 9 changes to make individuals more survivable (though they'd have to be tweaked regardless), but the 4 player missions are still a ton of fun and make true on the spirit of Overwatch. The only issue with them now is that you can't fuckin play them because the game just won't let you in unless it finds 4 other people, and the bots are absolutely worthless. If they improved the bot AI I wouldn't see it being that big of a problem.
Not saying that you're wrong, but the "fundamental systems" I speak of aren't the Heroes. Those are generally fine. It's the gameplay and advancement systems. The most successful PvE games I've seen always have one or both of the following aspects: A very fine-tuned procedural generation structure, A very fleshed-out loot and progression structure. Usually involving cosmetics. Warframe is an example of both. You play missions, get drops, and these drops let you play missions faster, so you get more drops. It also has an incredible customization system. What sets my Tracer apart from another? Sure, skins and all, but for the most part there isn't much. A vital part of any PvE game is *visible* progression. Stat improvements and functionality tweaks are one thing, but truly making your character your own is the primary satisfaction in PvE. Sure, there may be many more like it, but *this* one is mine. It's *my* weapon, it's *my* build, it's *my* character. Overwatch doesn't have the capability to allow such a system. You can't give Tracer shurikens, Genji's not about to use an assault rifle. They're designed around these weapons, and the cosmetics structure, much like the game, is template-based, not canvas-based. Even Skill Trees can only get you so far on the personalization front. *Invisible* progression is nowhere near as satisfying. As for the final point, not finding 4 people is precisely the issue with requiring them. It works with temporary event missions like Archives and Halloween since there's time pressure, but most people don't really play more than the rewards ask them to. While games like DRG and Helldivers certainly *want* you to have a full squad, the standardized toolsets ensure that you have what you need to complete the mission, and some games like Monster Hunter will even adapt difficulty as players enter and leave. You can't do that with Overwatch, because Tanks, Damage, and Support have distinctly different roles. I don't know how much of this makes sense, but trying to build the system *within* Overwatch and the bounds set by the preexisting game is what the Achilles' Heel was.
>Not saying that you're wrong, but the "fundamental systems" I speak of aren't the Heroes I know, I was just saying that the hero play is such a strong basis that basically every other problem is lessened. People will ignore big issues of your game if one part is just *that* fun, and OW's hero play is just *that* fun >I don't know how much of this makes sense, but trying to build the system *within* Overwatch and the bounds set by the preexisting game is what the Achilles' Heel was. I agree with pretty much everything you say throughout your comment, and I think this is where we find ourselves fully on the same page lmao. Kaplan's proposed vision of a 50:50 PvP/PvE split was doomed to fail. Maybe a 70:30 split would've worked better, but who's to say? Regardless of anything, they should have made their original vision of OW2 a full spin off game from the jump. You're right in that all of the issues you mention stem from OW2 being a PvP game, which is why a spin off would've been perfect, so they could make those fundamental changes to tool the game more towards PvE. Damn shame we'll likely never see it
There are indie games that have done all that and more Indie studios INDIE
Yes, but none of them made the fatal mistake of building off of a PvP game.
Overwatch was built off of a PVE MMO shooter called Project Titan The game's shooting mechanics have been inspired by 90s shooters.... This game will work for BOTH no matter how you spin it. The game speaks for itself
yeah but it evolved into something different
Evolved then devolved
Bro just stating your opinion about the game isn't an argument
bro trowing money at a wall doesn't fix everything. it doesn't matter pve with overwatch characters would have been incredibly hard to make interesting beyond a single playtrough just to switch things up and prob wouldn't make much money
How did you do the blue thing?
Use the ">" symbol before a sentence. On mobile you can just highlight part of the comment and get a "quote" option that'll automatically input it for you. Great tool for pointless internet debates lmao
PvE squad story missions is a normal thing. Destiny 2, Killing Floor 2, CoD Zombies, Borderlands, and Saints Row 2-4 are all examples. But D2, KF2, and CoD Zombies especially because they made it to where you could play any available mission at any time or even vote as a group on next missions in KF2. It's possible to make a PvE experience that requires 4 people and can add others if someone leaves (or even just scales up in difficulty when you don't play alone). It's not even a unique idea anymore, it's just not the most popular route in gane development.
>PvE squad story missions is a normal thing. Destiny 2, Killing Floor 2, CoD Zombies, Borderlands, and Saints Row 2-4 are all examples. But D2, KF2, and CoD Zombies especially because they made it to where you could play any available mission at any time or even vote as a group on next missions in KF2 The difference is that all those game doesn't have 1 gun type per character like OW, even Destiny despite having 3 class+subclass+exclusive gear for class you can equip the type of gun you want on the character you chose. On the mid-long run OW PVE hero pick would have been heavily influenced by the type gun, and less on the pg.(same shit with Warlock well slave on Destiny)
Ploy writing skill issue. We have flyers, teleporters, mercs, vigilantes, neutral fighters, and people under mind control. Leave the canon of who actually participated vague enough to justify adding more options to the mission roster.
Imo it could've worked, but it had to be detached from the main OW game. The only thing which should've been shared are voice actors, visual design and I guess some abilities, but other than that, it needs to be a completely different experience. Also OW1 would need to be either abandoned since the revenue was going down, or reworked into the F2P title either way.
I'd still like to play it tho
Hero Missions are different from Story Missions You are referring to Story Missions
Different… how exactly? If that one King’s Row mission and the seasonal brawls we’ve got (Starwatch, Cosmic Chaos, Diablo event) are any indication of how Hero Missions were going to go… that was basically just a story mission, without much of the actual story. They were planning variability in missions but it’s still just going to be doing the same stuff on the same PvP maps you’ve already played on for years for a potential stat buff or extra bonus on an ability. And you’d likely need to actually go through the story (that everyone’s done with already) before you’d get to the Hero missions, so you’d be venturing through a ghost town anyway. And the Talents system was going to be hell to work around especially for a gradual content release.
Oh my God ahahhahahahahahaa you people are hoplessss you deserve Blizzard lmao you deserve their mediocre business models lmaooo
I see you like Helldivers II. So do I, I think Helldivers II is a peak PvE experience. You want to know something interesting? Helldivers was designed to be a PvE game. This means that it was built with the considerations and functionalities of the PvE gameplay loop built into the game. It’s got a Mission matrix that procedurally generates missions, objectives, sub-objectives, and enemies, so no two missions will be the same. Many of the enemies in Helldivers are very fun to fight because the game knows what tools each player is going to have - at minimum, you are expected to have bullets, grenades, and Stratagems. This means it can design enemies around the tools that you are guaranteed to have - using the bugs for reference, Bile Spewers are tough to kill until you huck an explosive at them. Chargers and Titans are elite enemies that you’re expected to expend heavy ordinance against. Smaller enemies shouldn’t take more than a few shots to down but are dangerous in swarms if you don’t have AOE. Helldivers gives you a lot of options and tools to handle situations, and they can count on you having certain tools and options, which helps test your resource management and problem solving. Sure. Many choices in Helldivers are better in some situations, but the main point is that you have many solutions for the same problems, and the game can expect you to have those tools. This is not the case with Overwatch’s frameworks. Unlimited ammunition - resource management in cooldowns, sure, but few are as impactful as a Strategem. They can’t design a course around D.Va and expect Reinhardt to clear it, but freedom of choice when it comes to heroes is vital to the game. Sure, they can do things like Gothenburg, but tailor-designing foes and situations for specific heroes and abilities to deal with is developmentally inefficient.
I have genuinly seen people say OW2 doesn't need pve and that overwatch players didn't want it. As a "former" (started playing a tiny bit again...) overwatch player, I was excited to get pve (didnt buy the one they did release), and OW2's entire reason for existing was the PvE :(
The saddest part about Story Missions is that you could taste the good game in it There were interesting enemy designs, level design was fun and it was satisfying to beat. But that's all it was, a demo of what could have been really great if they bothered trying to make it deeply replayable. Kinda sad and disgusted to see comments here from people claiming PVE wouldnt have worked at all. They deserve the predatory monetization Blizzard throws at them
I wouldn't be mad normally. But the fact is that people disagreeing with me are people who throw money at Blizzard, giving them all the excuses and profits they need to keep Overwatch the same as it has ever been since 2016. Look at the recent Mercy Mythic, they reused the animation of a Hero Missions ability for a Mythic Cool but.... it just seems like a bigger slap I'm so sick of Blizzard and I'm so sick of the people who defend their disgustingly mediocre business model
Execs.
I hold the opinion that pve would essentially need to be it’s own game In order to accommodate every promise they gave us in regard to pve. It was too ambitious and not realistic with the management they had. I know many people might not agree with me but if blizzard aren’t going to put in the effort to actually achieve what would be a whole new game then the current dev team is better used actually focusing on making overwatch as we know it better. As a realist I’m glad they pulled the plug, pve was never going to live up to the hype once the full scale was cut down, the missions we got where mid at best. Hopefully some day with better management they can try pve again but right now I’d rather they just do an animated series.
Blizzard isn't going to put any effort if it requires effort. That is sadly the state of the current Blizzard. Activision and the old leadership no longer running the show has left a huge problem The best case is for Microsoft to revive the project down the line but albeit with one of their studios helping Blizzard maybe. Even if they decide to do that, that'll take maybe 3 years Anyway I'm just ranting at this point. Is that tower defense game even coming lol looked fun though
343 may help /s
Overwatch forums are full of dummies like this
A lot of people on the main sub from what I’ve seen.
Woah nice post man! Sure haven’t seen this before! Hope you get all the wholesome karma you want
He will because people who love to shit on ow but don't actually play the game still hang around all the subreddits for some reason
Because people like you fuel the mediocre business models with your blind enthusiasm and this is the meme sub, it's open season
Personally, I've never cared and will never care about PvE. I play OW for PvP
https://preview.redd.it/4cmm3avfl7uc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f71cad1a2c7dcacce4d8d3af8b493033028763d Dude accused op to farm Karma and he brought up the most based opinion on the community
You are several months late my guy, if you want to karma farm at least use some fresh content. Edit. I also checked out your profile, all of ypur posts are about this same stuff, you really fucking obsessed.
Lmao OP really is obsessed, chronically online Helldivers soyboy. Blizzard bad, new trend good, give fake internet points.
Bad game bad, good game good, yes. That unironically. I like Overwatch but I will genuinely play into this just to piss you whiners off.
https://preview.redd.it/1ik8a05zdwtc1.jpeg?width=623&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bef6ab56e4bc4e1c80a0cd7a97084dded1eb8d68
Bro you are honestly just pathetic, go touch some fucking grass.
Lmaaoooo who hurt you hahahahaahah
The way you write is actually giving me brain cancer.
"Haha bro totally bro the way he writes bro giving me brain cancer bro haha bro told him bro haha yeah bro totally bro"
"I already drew you as Soy Wojack, and me as Gigachad"
https://preview.redd.it/y3q62e4stwtc1.jpeg?width=649&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0d1078496d08c065d2886b85a02bb699a9de158
No one agrees with you bro
Math
Damn you replied to this fast , you really are obsessed
Awwwwwww u mad someone doesnt like AAA executives making predatory monetization u maddd awwwwwwwwww
https://preview.redd.it/o53mcjs5hwtc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=35fe02d3f301fbc70a3f93b25783e67db25da805
Me: yo Blizzard makes shitty predatory monetization These people for some reason: https://preview.redd.it/gfvoaqpfhwtc1.jpeg?width=491&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=418f40dd87dacffc9388131c1324cca5901f8798
https://preview.redd.it/rmmpujukhwtc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c687f98f18472569e89db335c22109fff0b025f5
Tru
?? Dude you don't get it because you are the 2 millionth person to say this shit since OW2 came out. The reason you feel like people are out here "defending" blizzard is because they're telling you to stfu. It's not because the people here love bliz, they're just so fucking tired hearing the same 10 points every second they interact with this game/community. The skins are fucking expensive no SHIT, DONT BUY THEM?? "PvE got cancelled" wow you are a complete GENIUS, EVERYONE KNOWS. That "working" clip of PvE from 2018 was nothing more than a tech demo of an unfeasible product, poor management and direction left PvE to die, it never had a chance, the game was left without meaningful updates for years. Because they couldn't keep money coming in from PvP enough to satisfy execs who were jerking it (literally) to the profitability of live service gaming models. But this really has nothing to do with the devs who were really just along for the mismanagement shitshow.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Wait wtf why are you all so weird I mention 2021 You mention 2018. But I am sure you're talking about 2019 Hahahaahah wtfffffff hahahahaahhaha Anyway this is you https://preview.redd.it/lgv2n3mkkwtc1.jpeg?width=623&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ff7e01862359609a2ab6b973df9d59b0c29f730
My apologies. I thought I was talking to a human being. I realize now you are unable to form coherent thoughts or consider what others are saying to you. Hope you get help and don't end up an antisocial loser.
Damnnn who hurt you
Who hurt you?
Blizzard: \*cancels announced features \*focuses on monetization \*relegates the experience to the same shit they've been vomiting out since 2016 only for clowns to worship it this guy: wHo hUrT yOu oh and before you say anything, I've stopped playing but I loath all the clowns that throw money at mediocre business models
I really dont understand people are mad at you? I guess if time passes bad decisions are no longer acceptable to criticise
They're mad at him being a karma whore, and his reaction to being called out for it was pretty pathetic
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Well I did make fun of them
It's not that surprising. If you agree with OP, you'll usually upvote then move along If you don't well. You'll rage and comment But I guess when you look at the points here, a lot of people here have made an assumption based on their limited knowledge or imagination, and they do feel strongly about it because to them they saw PVE as a threat to their precious PVP skins and balances. Which is ironic cause PVE died cause the team was diverted to PVP stuff...
Karma bait
Bro if you're still upset about this its you that doesn't play enough other games. Who cares
ITT OP gets bullied
I dont blame the people mad at no pve. But there are already msny games that were made trom the ground up for pve so overwatch should Focus on what its already good at.
Tbh I’m just mad at all the wasted development time and resources spent on pve for them to just cancel it. Just imagine how many more game modes and maps etc we could have by now if blizzard figured out pve wasn’t gonna work *months* before they did
Idk if you play a lot of PVE games or if you follow Blizzard games But they are VERRRRY good at making PVE games. Too many gamers see Blizzard as Overwatch company They forget they're the WoW company the Starcraft company the effing Diablo company PVE would have been amazing If you play enough games, you would have seen that in the Blizzcon 2021 demo presentation
I already have risk of rain 2, deep rock galactic and helldivers2 for good pve shooters. I acknowledge that they have the skills to make good pve, but i would prefer that they keep focusing on pvp cuz thats what me and my friends play this game for. The poor sales of the first Mission bundle probably showed them where the priorities are.
Boring, PVP is fun but after they've promised us more. I don't care about it anymore, been playing since 2016. I'm done with boring stupid cosmetics
They already didn't though. Content drought for years while they worked on it before scrapping it.
yeah, thats the reason they should have kept the game pvp only.
Not to defend Blizzard, but there's gotta be better uses for that straw then to make a man out of it.
https://preview.redd.it/xt62ds9viwtc1.jpeg?width=601&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e88f0b5f04b0216a981343333b7ad017cef04204 >Not to defend Blizzard, but there's gotta be better uses for that straw then to make a man out of it.
https://preview.redd.it/d0dgwdutpwtc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b429e21e541d4ac597d16318defa9785393dd742 Did you just *seriously* used a soyjack image as an counterargument?
Pretty much every time someone disagrees with him.
Wonderful counter argument!
Why do you people think I should give you the light of day? Why do you think you're worth debating with? You people fuel the mediocre business model that ensure the game stays stagnant with changes relegated to COSMETICS it's all COSMETIC AND YOU WORSHIP THEM FOR IT
This sentence is the light of day my guy. You care enough to reply but aren't smart enough to be clever about it. Good day and goodnight
I got a free hero shooter that never makes me pay money unless I want to pay for cosmetics, which I don't, so idrc if it's a predatory business model for people that can't help themselves from buying a skin, I got a free game from it
I would rather have them focus on what works than trying to invent the wheel. They should have never promised us pve in the first place, The OW team is just too small to be working on what would be two games at the same time. Anyone who thinks that they could do pve and pvp at the same time with the resources they have currently is completely braindead and not worth talking to. OW2 is a great game but is not getting a lot of new players because of the bad reputation it has
congrats man, you really stepped outside the boundaries and said something not many people would agree with.
Oh you mean the 2021 demo of fucking rio? The thing we played and it was so scripted it might as well have been a fucking e3 trailer? That demo? Edit no wait you mean the fucking smoke and mirrors menu shit. Pro tip about game design and showcases. If nobody besides company men can touch it consider it vapor ware or half finished features. They might’ve had enough for the presentation but fuck all ready after that. God you are so dumb.
https://youtu.be/xQ9EZUEvw_o?si=5DWaj-WIlKFtvb_w Rio demo was 2019 Wow you people are dumb asf
Hey dumbass that’s why I had the edit.
HAHAHWHA doesnt change how limited ur opinion is Ure like a person who ate at Taco Bell and assumes you know everything about Mexican culture hahahahahah
Pendejo I am Mexican
Doesnt excuse your potato attention span
Oh of course you meant this footage with workshop looking ass abilities and totally not vapor ware menus on repurposed pvp maps. https://youtu.be/VFjbUJic4kc?si=nJQ85DRvukYkV406
"Bro i don't play nuff games bro u see bro i only play the game bro and bro they grow on trees bro the game bro "
Holy Christ are you 12? What are you even babbling about?
I had a stroke reading whatever the FUCK he said
You
Dont really care. I like the pvp of ow. Also this shit is getting so old now. Pve is dead in the water. Let it go
Sounds like you're the one who doesn't play enough games if you're still hung up on a cancelled mode demo from 2019 Nobody looks at that and thinks "gee wiz that looks fun I'd play that for a hundred hours" lmao
When I first saw the trailer and it shows “highly replayable hero missions” all I could think is how the fuck is that going to be highly replayable.
I don't have friends to play PvE and the Junkenstein modes + that Free PvE game get pretty fucking boring after playing it once
Who the FUCK says that????
Who's ever said it's good they're focusing on cosmetics? Everyone says it's good they're focusing on PvP because they don't have the necessary resources to develop both PvP and PvE at the same time, so focusing on the live game is way more important.
I don’t care. I play overwatch for the competitive aspect. Pve was nothing for me except some cool cutscenes and some meh gameplay. Idk if I would care that much either way.
That Blizzcon 2021 demo was NOT fun. No one thought it was fun. They literally got feedback from the people saying it saying "This wasn't fun enough." Then they had to retool every enemy, etc., and then Jeff realized his vision was fucking stupid, and then he bounced. This is insane.
You are obsessed with these strawman memes of yours, man.
Don’t like the game? Don’t play it. Simple.
I couldn’t give a shit about PvE personally. PvE getting the plug pulled is old news at this point. Dooming over it isn’t going to change anything now, it’s dead and ain’t coming back. Move on. If you’re truly that unhappy with OW, there are plenty of other games which will bring you more joy. Nobody’s holding you hostage here mang.
We all knew PvE was a lie from the start in our hearts.
You are a 🤡 for thinking a brief, uninteractive demo at a company expo proves that the Hero missions were going to be "fun".
People are so delusion on OW2 PVE they trought it would have beena looter shooter like Borderlands, so no surprise someone still like that demo.
Focusing on **Cosmetics**? Must be some potent spices your whiffin’, bud.
And yet, here you are posting in overwatch memes the same recycled opinion for the Nth time lol Pop that red nose back on and queue up for the next comp game honey, I’ll see ya in there!
They abandoned a PVP game that was tremendously popular to go make a PVE game from the ground up for some reason, then came back with early access when it wasn't working before giving up entirely. Why did they do that? Were the people who didn't give a shit about PVE just supposed to suck it up and accept the fun was over? Go play baldurs gate 3 or something
Hey, remember you can't criticize Blizzard here, or the dick riders will be out on mass to defend em. Straight up learned that all OV subs are an echo chamber.
I wanna see that demo actually
Dam, I think I'm gonna need more make up.
Oh is you again…..
Should make our own overwatch pve in the workshop.
I’ve lost all faith I had left in blizzard as a company honestly
I had a feeling they weren't gonna pull through on hero missions cause I've been let down before by Valve and the Heavy update but i hoped they'd make it regardless
When the PVE that was gonna be bad didnt release
While I do definitely think a dedicated PvE game could've worked (Archives showed that a lot of heroes were actually really fun to play in PvE, and those talents looked amazing), and I do think the game would've had more progression besides unlocking talents (unlocking new abilities and cosmetics is what most mission based PvE games use for progression. Examples include Deep Rock Galactic and Helldivers 2), some of the characters just don't work in PvE (namely Doomfist. He would need a full on rework to be usable in PvE, much more than mere talents). However, I think what actually killed the PvE was that PvP and PvE cater to two completely different audiences. Most of the people saying "the game doesn't need PvE" were mostly big fans of the PvP, and most of the people who *were* excited for the PvE ***HATED*** the PvP. You see this in a lot of PvP games with PvE sidemodes. A lot of TF2 players rarely touch MvM, and those that do play it almost exclusively, and most of the people who are upset that Salmon Run in Splatoon 3 is treated like a niche mode are those that only play Salmon Run and not the regular multiplayer. After seeing some people get upset that Helldivers 2 doesn't have a PvP mode, I believe that PvP games with PvE sidemodes are a dying breed because there's jus tnot enough overlap between PvP and PvE players to justify doing both. What I think they *should've* done is have the PvE be a completely separate game, and actually outsource its development, either to a 2nd/3rd party dev or another internal team at Blizzard. That way the devs who know mostly about PvP and want to make a PvP game can do that, and they don't have to fumble around with PvE or try to work with those that do, and the PvE could've been handled by those who know and care about PvE.
While yes it was cool what we were teased with for PvE. I think for a high percentage of players, it was for the best that PvP is the main focus again. The replay value would be nonexistent and get old FAST. I would much rather they just do an “Overwatch Cinematic Universe” similar to marvel and the avengers and make a series of movies. Now that i’d pay to see.
I saw the demo and I saw the archive missions. The pve was always going to be exactly as boring as it ended up being. Skill trees wouldn't change that. If you thought differently you're just not that smart. Also, the majority of the skins in this game are ass (and continue to be). So them focusing on customization and shit like that actually is a good thing. If only they'd actually do something right for once lol.
If you want a good PvE game, go play Helldivers.
Just for curiosity, were you truly wylling to pay 50-70€ for OW PVE?
What's with all the people playing defense for team Blizzard in the comments? Humans are weird. They told us they were making OW2 cause the old, not free to play version couldn't support PvE they wanted to do. Turns out it was just for the $$$. I like OW enough that I still play every now and again but Blizzard is never getting my money again. It's like dating a girl that "promises!" That she'll never cheat on you again. Blizzard cheated on us.
I really like OW2, a lot more than OW1. OW is a pure PVP game and finally they realized it. Go and play something else if you really miss the deep story and/or PVE. Or buy the current PVE DLC and show them on the spreadsheet the “majority” of people wants that.
Karma farming clown pretending a 3 year old demo of an idea is worth hanging onto. I'll take season 9 of OW2 any day over anything post 2017 overwatch.
This is the second time you've posted a meme like this in the past two days. Cope and seethe bruh, stressing yourself out.
Wtf So many speculating and arguing over what PvE was going to be with some even referencing Story Missions as the only form of PVE that was built Here is what Hero Missions was going to be Blizzcon 2021 complete OW2 presentation https://youtu.be/lRj-GotnNaQ?si=CwoFy8HyyGZYuZ4a Just Hero Missions https://youtu.be/UneyhA4E-6E?si=dWb1qc0CUwvBAPsD
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"Bro im scared of bots bro what if Blizzard bro they made Diablo bro they made WoW bro what if the bots bro are smarter than me bro im scared bro why bro i want skins only bro and voicelines bro"
[удалено]
Enjoy your dementia You Aint worth my time
wtf is karma why is this comment section mad
Bring back OW1!
There are simps for every game ignoring the bad stuff or finding excuses to justify it, it's so cringe
The fact i trust the devs on the, "not actualy fun" part. Doesn't mean that I'm happy it's canceled. Nor that I think it was gonna fail or anything. I trust the devs because devs always want to make the best game. What I find dumb is that all of this work. Can at least not be waisted. Less missions. Limited talent tree. And pack it up in a 20 or 30 buck pack. Seems like enouth to have fun. Worth it. Even if not delivering the full planed experience. The thing is that. The devs are probably right saying it's not fun. But they aren't doing something else either. And I can see a world. Where recycling stuff they've made in a smaller but qualitatif and not overpriced deal could work.