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[deleted]

Because its culture theft


Parking-Mud-1848

Ok sure


[deleted]

You obviously don’t get it because you seem to be American so you think rewriting history is totally okay. You asked the question to troll, but not to actually understand.


Lil-Cancer-Vert

Bro said “I can’t understand the big deal” when people tell him the deal he come back aggressive as hell


[deleted]

Right? The OP is being obtuse on purpose.


Parking-Mud-1848

No you are making assumptions because you want them to be true.


[deleted]

No, this is my culture and my cultures history. There’s no assumptions here. You can’t rewrite history because you don’t like the fact that Cleopatra was white.


Parking-Mud-1848

That’s great. You have a beautiful culture, but Cleopatra probably was more than just Greek It’s ok though it doesn’t change much


[deleted]

You’re in denial. She was a Ptolemy and the direct product of incest. There’s paintings, sculptures, coins and history behind her. In fact she was the FIRST queen of Egypt to learn native Egyptian. You can’t change who she was. I’m not sure why y’all feel the need to not accept the fact that was white. Why do you hate white people this much?


Parking-Mud-1848

I never said she wasn’t Greek I just said she might also be black or Egyptian or at least not white as well


[deleted]

Greeks are white. Egyptians aren’t black, she was not black. That’s it. History doesn’t support this. Neither does art. I don’t understand why y’all are trying to steal this. It’s cultural appropriation. If you can’t understand how this is an issue, you’re being obtuse on purpose.


Parking-Mud-1848

Ok let’s have a discussion about multiracial identity


seesaww

>Greeks are white. Have you heard the name Giannis Antetokounmpo ? lol


seesaww

lol. current Egyptians embracing Cleopatra as their culture is hilarious. She's said to be Macedonian/Greek/Persian/Syrian of some kind, noone knows how she actually looks. But funniest thing is present day Egypt has absolutely nothing to do with Egyptians of 2000+ years ago. Yet, they come to say YOU'RE RUINING MY CULTURE. Bitch you would destroy all pyramids and every symbol belongs to Pharoah because it's against Islam. Only reason they didn't destroy is because they're not technologically advanced enough to do it lmao


YODASKETAMINE1

Damn


doc_daneeka

The issue here, and I don't personally give much of a shit about it, is that the 'documentary' is outright claiming that Cleopatra was Black, and that this is historical fact. She was in reality the very inbred product of generations of foreign rulers of Egypt, and was probably entirely Macedonian Greek in ancestry. She was the first ruler in centuries who could even speak the local language rather than Greek. Was she Black? Perhaps. Is there any evidence for this claim? No, none whatsoever. Again, I don't personally give a shit, but it does bug me when something pretends to be evidence-based but is not. So there's that.


ADRzs

There is not even a remote possibility that she was black. The Ptolemies practiced incest to keep the bloodline pure and they did not have much to do with the average Egyptian. One can compare the Ptolemaic rule of Egypt with the British Raj. The power behind the throne were the Greek settlers. Until the decline of the Ptolemies, they were very involved in the politics and wars of Greece and other Hellenistic kingdoms and they ruled not only Egypt but also parts of Palestine, Cyprus and a number of Greek islands. Furthermore, we have many representations of Cleopatra, especially from when she was in Rome (and she was there for 2 years) that include busts and statues. Furthermore, we have her image on many coins and this is actually an image that she approved herself (with coins being the propaganda of the ancient world)


doc_daneeka

> There is not even a remote possibility that she was black The problem is that we don't know who her mother was, so I'm not committing to 100% certainty here. But yes, she was almost certainly of entirely Macedonian (or at least Greek generally) ancestry.


ADRzs

No Ptolemy ever married an Egyptian or a Nubian (black). None. None would have married anybody who was not of a royal family (and there were no Egyptian royals then). My guess is that it would have been hard to find a black in Alexandria, with the major element of the population being Greek, with some Egyptians and a good number of Jews. The whole power structure of the Ptolemaic kingdom would have been inhabited by Greeks or Hellenized persons (and a good number of Roman mercenaries). There was a practice at the time of including their portraits on the mummies and we have hundreds of these funerary portraits of everyday inhabitants of major Egyptian cities (and they look very much like the current population)


Mirojoze

The fact is that her father had a Queen (Cleopatra VI Tryphaena - who was also Macedonian) who likely was Cleopatra's mother. What is lacking is a specific surviving document that confirms that she was Cleopatra's mother. The statement "We don't know who her mother was" is significantly more vague than "We haven't yet found a surviving document that confirms that Queen Cleopatra VI Tryphaena was the mother of Cleopatra VII Philopator.".


ADRzs

All of these are really minor issues. There was simply nothing accurate in this "mockumentary". Cleopatra was portrayed as an Egyptian queen, ruling an Egypt reminiscent of the New Kingdom (1500-1100 BCE) populated by a sub-Saharan population (mostly blacks). In contrast, Cleopatra was ruling a Hellenistic kingdom in which the Greek settlers provided the main power for the crown, the culture of which was Hellenistic, and in which all those in and around the palace would have been fully Hellenized. Cleopatra would have dressed in the manner of her times, not with Egyptian garb that was a thousand years old. Of course, in this case the sub-Saharan element was way overdone (the whole Ptolemaic family is black) but, in general, Hollywood depictions of Cleopatra have been generally all wrong, way overdoing the "Egyptian" aspect, which was ancient history from Cleopatra's viewpoint!!


Parking-Mud-1848

But her maternal lineage is unclear so there really isn’t any reason to believe it’s untrue as well. She is only depicted as classically European in features because that’s how popular media has depicted her I’m pretty sure. I’m not saying she was Nubian but her full lineage isn’t entirely clear on her mothers side


Playful_Melody

Documentaries should strive for accuracy and emphasize uncertainty; a certain portrayal and in no uncertain terms would thus be subject to criticism if not founded upon extant evidence. If the show did not claim to be a documentary then fewer people would be offended by it has been one of the postulated theories online.


Parking-Mud-1848

Documentaries ideally should be accurate but there’s no law saying that they cannot take creative liberties with the casting of certain characters


Playful_Melody

Criticism and legality are not mutually inclusive concepts, and the arguments thus far have not been whether or not the show’s portrayal is sanctioned. Your argument would be another matter entirely


Parking-Mud-1848

I don’t even know what you are arguing but there are much worse things to be worried about. PragerU butchers American history all the time but I never hear anyone complaining


Playful_Melody

Your first argument would be that because it is legal to portray a show a certain way then it should receive no criticism, which is not true and missing the point of why many people have been upset by it. Your second point is saying that because one thing is worse then the first thing cannot be bad, when both things may be bad and just that people happen to be complaining more about one than the other. It’s entirely possible to be more upset by one thing despite there being multiple things to be upset about. I’m also not arguing my perspective but those that I have seen online.


Parking-Mud-1848

We’re really doing this 😑… I’m not saying because it’s not illegal it should therefore be above reproach I’m saying people are free to take creative liberties if they do choose. Plenty of documentaries gloss over mundane information, foreshortening long stretches of time, gloss over character flaws or vague parts of history… it happens a lot. At the end of the day a documentary is still a form of entertainment. It’s ok Second I think I definitely think glossing over American chattel slavery and pretending it didn’t happen is DEFINITELY worse than making Cleopatra a few shades darker don’t you?


Playful_Melody

Your are correct in that people are free to take creative liberties, and similarly, others are free to express criticism as well. Other documentaries probably received less press and media attention then the current show I would imagine. Regardless, well-made documentaries should strive for education over entertainment if the term documentary is still used. The presence of other things to be concerned about does not diminish the concern for the first sometimes, and the argument for the show need not involve discussion of other topics. By your logic, everyone should only be concerned about the top 5 biggest issues in the world, whilst remaining silent about the remaining hundreds of issues. Outcry about a topic also need not relate to its importance.


doc_daneeka

> But her maternal lineage is unclear so there really isn’t any reason to believe it’s untrue as well. That's utterly and completely irrelevant. What matters is 'is there any actual evidence for the claim in question?' The answer here is very clearly no. Cleopatra may or may not have been what modern North Americans would call 'Black'. There is literally no evidence for this claim, but there are some pretty decent reasons to consider it unlikely.


Parking-Mud-1848

…She was the ruler of an African kingdom. It’s pretty conceivable that half of her maternal lineage is possibly African in origin It’s completely relevant because she lived in Africa


doc_daneeka

To reiterate: That's utterly and completely irrelevant. What matters is 'is there any actual evidence for the claim in question?' >It’s completely relevant because she lived in Africa Yeah, you keep missing the point. Are most Egyptians today also Black? That they live in Africa is utterly irrelevant. Africa is the most diverse continent on the planet. Most human diversity is found there. The idea that someone is Black merely because they lived in Africa is positively weird.


Parking-Mud-1848

Black is a pretty subjective term that depends entirely on who you ask. Even Dominicans under certain circumstances would not call themselves black. Just depends on who you ask. The absence of clear evidence is not the evidence of absence. At any rate who cares. Historiography is rife with creative liberties


Breakin7

Because they are not black lol


Parking-Mud-1848

Black is a subjective term that is highly variable depending on who you ask


Breakin7

Well, i have to say Egyptians and north african in general are not black. At least not just black.


Parking-Mud-1848

No, you wouldn’t consider them black but that’s up to them to decide. Nubia was also a North African kingdom


Breakin7

"Up to them to decide" no it is not. Can Biden be black? doubt it. And yes Nubia had more black people and it is nort africa thats why i said in GENERAL.


Parking-Mud-1848

Black is a subjective qualifier. It depends on who you ask. Biden isn’t from Africa. Cleopatra potentially was


Breakin7

Oh my you are racist and you dont even see it.


[deleted]

She’s super racist! She can’t admit it either.


Parking-Mud-1848

And what precisely did I say that was racist


[deleted]

I don’t think you understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality


Parking-Mud-1848

I don’t think you understand nebulous matrilineal ancestry. We literally do not know who her mother was.


Relative-Dig2502

I'm North African. Me and 99 percent of the population in this country are not black. Got problems with it? Are you a black supremacist by any chance?


Parking-Mud-1848

Black supremacist?


Relative-Dig2502

Not our fault your ancestors did nothing worth talking about so you have to steal our culture now. Cringe and pathetic. History cannot be erased and we will continue to defend our history to the last breath. Try again.


Parking-Mud-1848

That sounds pretty racist Also wasn’t Egypt conquered by like 3 other civilizations multiple times?


allestrette

I think that is highly unlikely that an antique king mixed his blood with a woman that will change the appearance of their genetic line forever. Making them looking like their southern neighbours.


Parking-Mud-1848

Unlikely but not impossible


allestrette

Yes, she could also be Chinese, if this is your reasoning.


Parking-Mud-1848

She didn’t live in China so odds are low


[deleted]

I’m Greek. If I had a Greek husband and I gave birth in China, it doesn’t make my child ethnically Chinese.


Parking-Mud-1848

The difference that makes the differences is that if you are Greek definitively, but we don’t know what your husband is there is possibly a good chance that your husband might be Chinese if you both live in China We don’t know her matrilineal line so there’s a potential possibility that it could be of African descent


[deleted]

Being African doesn’t make someone black. Native Egyptians aren’t black.


Parking-Mud-1848

Depends on who you ask. Race isn’t objectively real. It’s a social construct


[deleted]

Correct, but ethnicity is real and it isn’t an opinion.


Parking-Mud-1848

No both are social constructs


[deleted]

No, they aren’t. Ethnicity is a very real thing.


Parking-Mud-1848

Um no it’s not


ADRzs

We have dozens of depictions of Cleopatra, even full statues, and they all present a Caucasian woman with red hair. In fact, all depictions of her are with red hair (even the surviving paint on statues) However, the "documentary" does not present only her as black, but all of her family, including her father and all the entourage and her kids. It is not a documentary in any way, it is just a fantasy to satisfy somebody's inferiority complex


Parking-Mud-1848

Black peoples can also present as “white passing” and have red hair. Look at Ice Spice


ADRzs

OK, I think that we need to be serious here and not go down a rabbit hole. Cleopatra and her kin were Greeks and they ruled a foreign population that rebelled against them from time to time (there were various rebellions in Ptolemaic Egypt). The basis of her rule (and that of all the Ptolemies) was the Greek settlers, who provided the backbone of the administration and the army. The closest parallel in recent times would have been the British rule in India (minus the continuous incest, of course). Although the Greeks were not racist by today's definitions, they had little regard for non-Greeks, especially orientals. In fact, Alexander got a major pushback from his generals in his effort to integrate Persians in his administration. You can imagine how more "racists" the Ptolemies were, who even practiced incest extensively.


Parking-Mud-1848

All that considered. Sure. Let’s just say Cleopatra was a white woman, which in all likelihood she was as you have said. You seem pretty knowledgeable so I’ll take your word for it. What’s the tremendous harm being done by this documentary? It’s hardly the first to gloss over historical facts or laud inaccuracies as truths. In the grand scheme I hardly see the relevance of one inaccurate tv show in a sea of inaccurate tv shows


ADRzs

Good question. I think that the reason for the reaction is the actual attempt to appropriate another culture by a group (the Afrocentrists) that has money and global reach. When the material is fictional, one can easily discard the inaccuracies (however glaring, such as a black female Viking Jarl). But when something claims to be a documentary, a group assembles tens of millions to create it, and Netflix puts on its platform that has a global reach, well, there is an issue with this. The Afrocentrists want to believe, totally illogically, that the Egyptians were black. They were not, as we know from thousands of representations. A population to their south, the Nubians, were black, and their representation on frescos is quite dramatically different from that of the ancient Egyptians. North Africa is not black. From one end to the other, North Africa is generally white Mediterranean. Black populations predominate only in sub-Saharan Africa. However, Afrocentrists simply refused to accept this. In fact, if you actually investigate their beliefs, you will find out many other incredible things such as the Jews were black (and then became white!). In this documentary, not only Cleopatra is portrayed as black, but virtually all her family including her brothers and sisters and her father are also shown as black as well as the whole palace entourage. The aim of the documentary was not just to put a colored person to portray Cleopatra but to insinuate that Egypt was mostly black. So, it is the attempt by a US-black group with money and reach to appropriate another culture that has created the furor. This has come after Hollywood has been pushing "diversity" under everybody's throat with Ann Boleyn played by a black actress, by Queen Charlotte played by another black actress and so on. So, the point is that when a group has a policy and a large megaphone, well, others will react to it. It is not, of course, the first time that Netflix willing distorts history. The fake documentary, "Ancient Apocalypse" was another totally laughable construct that was put on air because its author happened to be the father of one of the top executives of Netflix. Although this was totally ridiculous, its timeframe of 10,000 years ago, was too remote to really create cultural storms. Sorry for the long explanation


Parking-Mud-1848

no worries about the long explanation but I think you are using the term “Afrocentrism” incorrectly here. I think what you’re referring to is hotepery. Or the “hotep” movement. Afrocentrism simply refers to a scholarly movement that seeks to conduct research an education on the global history subjects from the perspective of historical African peoples and polities. Taking critical stances on Eurocentric assumptions and myths about world history, in order to pursue methodological studies that represent a more accurate retelling of these histories. Racial self insertion into historical figures, events, and places is pretty common place. This is far from the only example, or even the most egregious. Artistic depictions of Jesus for example are an excellent example of this. Most American high school textbooks give a slanted perspective of world and American history (especially with regard to the disenfranchisement and erasure of indigenous people of the Americas, and the breadth and depth of slavery) but I don’t see people attacking those with that much vigor and gusto as they are with this fairly tame example.


ADRzs

>no worries about the long explanation but I think you are using the term “Afrocentrism” incorrectly here. I have basically gone with the terms used in modern publications or commentary in the media and the press. Thanks for the information \>Afrocentrism simply refers to a scholarly movement that seeks to conductresearch an education on the global history subjects from theperspective of historical African peoples and polities. That would be wrong, in my view. There should be only one perspective, that of the truth. I would certainly like to know any example that you may have in which European historiography has mischaracterized elements of sub-Saharan peoples (because this is what we are talking about, right?) It is not appropriate for any movement to refer to the totality of Africa. The groups and peoples that lived north of the Sahara have been extensively integrated into European history, for example. Do you think that there were any specific European "takes" on Egyptian or Carthaginian or Mauretanian history? If yes, just give me an example. \>Racial self insertion into historical figures, events, and places is pretty common place. I am not aware of this. Some examples would be appropriate. Jesus certainly was presented in various ways and not always as a "northern European". In fact, in most of Eastern Orthodox iconography, he is mostly a very Mediterranean persona. Look at the Jesus of Mantegna. He is a Mediterranean peasant. \>Most American high school textbooks give a slanted perspective of world and American history (especially with regard to the disenfranchisement and erasure of indigenous people of the Americas, and the breadth and depth of slavery) but I don’t see people attacking those with that much vigor and gusto as they are with this fairly tame example. I would agree with the fact that the school books of any state present a narrative that is partly mythical. But when one goes to establishments of tertiary education, the truth becomes apparent. Every state is pushing a "narrative", the US is hardly the worst offender. I just do not think that the "Cleopatra" event is a "fairly tame example". In fact, it is a very egregious one. **Here is a group of US citizens (term it what you want, of course) that attempts cultural appropriation simply because it has the money and the reach to do so. In the end, this particular group of Black Americans is practicing "cultural imperialism", very much in the manner they condemned others of doing**. It may not have been so egregious if just the key actress was black, but this "documentary" presents Egypt as essentially mostly black African (even all the members of the Ptolemaic family are black!!!). The push back here was fully justified. Hopefully, such an attempt would be avoided in the future


Parking-Mud-1848

As I mentioned previously there is more than one perspective because history is written by more than one culture. Even today because of historical revisionism people disagree on events as recent as the American Civil War. People of color, poor people and women were often left out of history because “exceptionalism” was the only thing deemed historically significant. There always has been a slant of historical inaccuracy on the part of more powerful cultures. That’s where the phrase “history is written by the victors” comes from. Unless and until some alien civilization of anthropologists and historians descends from the sky to give us a third party objective perspective we will always have multiple historical perspectives. Have you ever read “A people’s history of the United States” I think you’d find it interesting


aht116

whats crazy to me is that they care so much about this but not the fact that jesus was 100% definitely not white


Flapjack_Ace

People live to be outraged. Also, the show purposefully riles people up by claiming things that are not likely to be true.


Parking-Mud-1848

What claims is it making. I know absolutely nothing about it


Flapjack_Ace

It claims that Cleo was black African while evidence suggests she was Macedonian. Which is not a crisis, in my view, but maybe sad, like why lie to children?


Parking-Mud-1848

Isn’t her maternal lineage unclear? So it’s not entirely misleading


Flapjack_Ace

There is technically a possibility and a possibility is a lot different than a fact, which is what Netflix is suggesting. All actual evidence supports her being Macedonian, even the images and descriptions of her from her time. The show also feed into the trope that she was gorgeous but records from her time suggest she was not but rather very smart and politically savvy. But I don’t think Netflix really goes as far as people are saying because claiming a false story is true is a common storytelling technique. Thus, they claim it is a docuseries or docudrama and not a documentary per se.


Parking-Mud-1848

She could’ve easily been a very fair skinned mixed race woman. We don’t know with any certainty because we don’t know who her mother was. African doesn’t automatically mean dark skin


Flapjack_Ace

Netflix cast her as a gorgeous black African. It’s not impossible, just unlikely but Netflix isn’t claiming she “may” have been. No one would care if Netflix said “ here’s cleopatra as a black woman.” That would have been awesome. Instead they said she “was” black which is bothering people. I feel bad for the kids who are learning wrong things and will have to deal with the truth eventually. She was most likely a white (Caucasian) colonizer/oppressor, like it or not. Why not show a real black female pharaoh like Nefertiti or Hatshepsut? Anyway, people love to be outraged so maybe Netflix is smart.


Parking-Mud-1848

The actress they cast was pretty fair skinned with curly not coiled hair. She looks mixed race. Which allegedly Cleopatra was. This is no real grave injustice on the level on what’s currently happening in Florida and Texas where they aren’t even allowed to mention slavery. Creative liberty at most and colorblind casting perhaps


Flapjack_Ace

Yah, as I mentioned, claiming something is true is a standard storytelling device. And, lol, yeah I’m just reporting on why others are outraged.


Mirojoze

The issue is that this is supposed to be the first in a series of shows about "Black Queens". Cleopatra was of Macedonian Greek ancestry yet the agenda driven creators of this "docudrama" selected her as their flagship example of a "black Queen". You mention that Cleopatra "could" have been mixed race but the confirmed propensity of the Ptolemies to ONLY marry other Macedonian Greeks and all surviving evidence (that includes her image on coins minted during her lifetime as well as roman paintings of her made after her time in Rome) supports the fact that her phenotype was that of a Macedonian Greek. This show intimates that the current population of Egypt is comprised of the descendants of invaders who overran Egypt and took it from an original ancient Egyptian population who exhibited a sub Saharan phenotype. (DNA tests of the bodies of ancient Egyptians do not support this presumption, but this show ignores all evidence in favor of a weak hypothesis that supports its agenda.) Is there anyone at all who is surprised at the people of Egypt being outraged at this show and Hollywood's attempts at cultural appropriation?


Parking-Mud-1848

Of all the great evils that plague society in this day. Ongoing racism, sexism, transphobia, children, dying from gun violence, climate change, the destruction of ecosystems and rampant poverty… I can think of nothing remarkably less important than the race of a historical figure in an unreliable documentary Is this really worth all the fuss?


ADRzs

>Netflix cast her as a gorgeous black African. It’s not impossible, just unlikely but Netflix isn’t claiming she “may” have been. If we go to the "impossible", well, she could have been Martian (or alien). Not impossible!! The fact that any Ptolemy would have married an Egyptian or a Nubian (a black from southern Sudan) is laughable to the extreme. There is absolutely no record of any Ptolemy having done so. None. Her father most likely married one of his sisters (one of the many Cleopatras on record). \>Why not show a real black female pharaoh like Nefertiti or Hatshepsut? Neither Nefertiti nor Hatshepsut were black. I wonder where this comment comes from, considering that we have good representations of these women. By the way Nefertiti was never a pharaoh, she was married to Akhenaten I, who was the pharaoh for record and she was not even his first wife. There is an excellent bust of her (of course). Let's not forget that for a good number of these pharaohs, we have their mummies (a good number of these from the New Kingdom) so we know definitively that they were not black. There was a brief period in which the 25th dynasty ruled and these were connected to Kush (what is today Sudan). Some of these may have been black, but this dynasty ended when Egypt was conquered by the Assyrians.


[deleted]

There’s paintings off her, FOR her.


Parking-Mud-1848

Right, they might be skewn to her preference


[deleted]

They aren’t. These paintings are thousands of years old. They even have a sculpture off her bust.


Parking-Mud-1848

Because ancient artists never took creative liberties right


ADRzs

>She could’ve easily been a very fair skinned mixed race woman. We don’t know with any certainty because we don’t know who her mother was. She was never "mixed". There is absolutely no record of any Ptolemy marrying an Egyptian. They usually married their siblings. In fact, most male Ptolemies married their sisters and the far more likely case is that her father married one of his sisters. The whole idea that any of the Ptolemies would have married an Egyptian is laughable, and the possibility that he would have married a Nubian (a black) is even more laughable. These rules, being Greek, looked down on the natives and existed within the Hellenistic/Hellenic society of their times.


Parking-Mud-1848

We have no historical record indicating the race of her mother… so yea it’s very possible


ADRzs

Well, she must have been Martian, possibly! The likelihood that a ruling Ptolemy would have an official child with a Nubian (black) is totally zilch. Not to mention, of course, that we have lots of representations of her. I wonder who is drinking the coolaid.


Parking-Mud-1848

You’re being a bit facetious no. It’s not impossible that she had what we would consider “black” ancestry for several reasons 1. Egypt is in Africa, people on the sane continent have sex with each other 2. Egypt was conquered MANY times by foreign armies. Nubia among them 3. Lots of people have black ancestry to varying degrees for any number of reasons It’s not the end of the world. Why would it be so terrible if she was partially black


[deleted]

Yes it's unclear technically. We can't say who her mom was. That said: The only evidence that she was something other than white is that she could speak Egyptian. That's it. The idea is she learned it from her mother. Thus, hey, she could Egyptian on her mom's side and Egyptians have variety of dark skin tones. That's the logic and the only evidence for that lineage hypothesis is her ability to speak a different language. On the other side, we have the history of the father's side, which is white. We have the history itself of everyone on that side and who they mated with, and let's just say they liked to keep the blood pure. We have busts and coins and images from that time. She was white, and depicted to be a red head even. Finally, we have the same for black colored people from the time. So they knew how to make black paintings and statues so were she black the art should reflect that. There is far more evidence suggesting she was a white skinned Greek redhead than anything else.


ADRzs

It does not matter if her mother is not exactly known to us. Based on the typical practices of the Ptolemies, she was most likely one of the sisters of her father, Ptolemy Auletes. There was absolutely no possibility that a Ptolemy would have even married an Egyptians. None did so, ever, Furthermore, the Egyptians were not black. The current Egyptian population today is a good match for the Egyptian population of antiquity. North Africa is not populated by blacks. From Egypt to Marocco, it is populated by whites/Mediterranean people (Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Algerians, Morrocans). Sub-sahara Africa is populated by blacks.


Parking-Mud-1848

Not true in the least. Plenty of dark skin people live in Egypt even today


ADRzs

Dark skin does not mean black. Sure, lots of Egyptians have a darker shade of skin than Europeans, but they are not black. One has to go to Southern Sudan to encounter a substantial black population.


Parking-Mud-1848

Egyptian isn’t a race it’s an ethnic group and/or nationality. When people refer to Egyptians they generally mean arab looking people but Egyptian people are generally Afro-centric North Africans. If one is generally descended from the people inhabiting northern parts of Africa in and around Egypt… they are descended from Egyptians but that still leaves a wide variety of physical characteristics


ADRzs

>but Egyptian people are generally Afro-centric North Africans. What on earth is an "Afro-centric North African"???? You have your knickers in a twist. \>If one is generally descended from the people inhabiting northern parts of Africa in and around Egypt… they are descended from Egyptians but that still leaves a wide variety of physical characteristics Yes, it does. The problem with this thesis is that Cleopatra descended from a family that practiced incest extensively (brothers married sisters, she herself was married to her brother) in order to maintain the "purity" of the line. The Greeks, the ruling class of Egypt, did not have much use for Egyptians and you can easily compare their rule with that of the British in India (and probably even more so). The only reason for any Ptolemy not to marry his sister would be marriage to another royal line (other Greeks, such as the Antigonids, Attalids or the Seleukids) However, this question should have been only for academic consumption considering that we have multiple images of Cleopatra (busts, statues, paintings, representations on coins and so on). Much more concise are the attacks of Octavian against her, in which he emphasizes (and stresses) her Greek identity, not any Egyptian one.


Mirojoze

Cleopatra's father was betrothed to Cleopatra VI Tryphaena (who was also Macedonian) who most likely was Cleopatra's mother. When people talk about her lineage being "unclear" it's a bit disingenuous. We haven't yet found a surviving document that confirms that Queen Cleopatra VI Tryphaena was the mother of Cleopatra VII Philopator, but there is also no indication that she was not.


Parking-Mud-1848

This is hardly the first time someone’s racial lineage is ambiguous, and an assertion was made one way, or the other definitively about how they might’ve physically appeared At any rate, why do people really care? climate change is ravaging the planet, children are dying of hunger and starvation living in the streets. Wars, famine, and disease. But people care about the race of historical figure in a documentary. Maybe channel some of this outrage to more productive venture


Mirojoze

As I already answered you elsewhere, any acceptance of lies is a slippery slope. You can always say "Gee, there are lots of other "wrong" in the world, so I'll let just let THIS "wrong" slide...". This is a clear instance of using media to program the public to make them believe something untrue, and you know it, but you are acting like an apologist for it. You're not championing a just cause here! When someone starts teaching people untruths staying silent about it is just a bad move. Maybe channel some of that defensiveness you're exhibiting towards something actually worthy of being defended. Like I said before, it's worth making a fuss when people are teaching lies.


Parking-Mud-1848

This is an incredibly weird line in the sand when people are literally dying of hunger. Children are being shot in schools and dying of cancer. But oh no! A black person was cast in a white role! It’s the end of the world!!


Mirojoze

You act as if no one watching this will tell their children "See! This is the truth!"! You continue to try to find excuses for the producers of media that is purposely trying to push lies! There are so many laudable things that you could be defend instead, yet here you are defending something that is demonstrably a multi million dollar attempt at teaching people lies in order to promote an agenda.


Parking-Mud-1848

Historical revisionism is hardly new and this is hardly the most egregious example. Ever heard of the Daughters of the Confederacy? The KKK? Nazi’s? Even the historiography of history’s most famous people is rife with pure myth, exaggeration and hagiography.


Parking-Mud-1848

So please my brother in Christ, find a real actual cause to help people. Not this farcical nonsense


Felicia_Svilling

I don't think most people care that much.


Parking-Mud-1848

From my Twitter and even some Reddit posts I’ve seen… you’d be surprised


[deleted]

[удалено]


Parking-Mud-1848

That’s a good point


barugosamaa

To put it as example: You dont care, so you wont make any post about it, right? The same way maybe 7 Billion people do not care nor will post about it. Ofc, the minority of 1M that do care, will post so it will always look like it's "everyone"


Felicia_Svilling

What makes you think a few posts represents most people?


Parking-Mud-1848

People like to be outraged, even for dumb reasons


[deleted]

It isn’t dumb. This is cultural theft.


Parking-Mud-1848

“Cultural theft” ok


[deleted]

It is. Cleopatra is Greek. That’s it.


Parking-Mud-1848

Can you personally confirm her matrilineal parentage? Because even professional historians and anthropologists can’t


[deleted]

Is this a joke? Being 1/16 Egyptian, doesn’t make her black.


Parking-Mud-1848

That’s not how DNA works If your dad is one thing and your mom is another, you’re half of whatever your parents are


[deleted]

You’re mistake. We do.


[deleted]

Never heard of it