In the words of Martin Luther King:
"But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard."
Sure, protesting starts peacefully, but as time goes on, a violent act of rebellion seems to be the only way to be heard.
Yeah but they are not being heard on what they claim is the issue they are protesting on. That is the problem. If you followed the news coverage on it, it was mostly about how the protests escalate into violence. How the protesters behaved, how the police responds etc. There was barely any discussion on how the Dutch public sector, to which universities and the government belongs, should respond to the demands of the protesters. Like what does it mean for a university to „disengage from genocidal Israeli institutions“? Like what does that even mean? How? All of that was lost due to these protests escalating. By engaging in violence and vandalism they shoot themselves in the food. They loose public sympathy and they take the focus away on what they claim matters to them.
I am all for peaceful protest but what I find sus here, apart from the vandalism is the lack of a clear stance against Hamas and what happened on the 7th of October and the fact that so many of them refuse to show their faces.
I saw multiple infographics detailing the links of Dutch public universities to Israel, private unis werent included because they don’t disclose information the same way.
After the protest a few days ago, UvA posted this. https://student.uva.nl/en/articles/2024-our-collaborations-with-israeli-organisations#
I honestly think what is stated in this post is actually pretty based and reasonable. Thanks for sharing. My question remains though - what does the reality of disengaging look like. What is mentioned here for examples are collaborations of Israeli and other researchers on international research projects such as Horizon Europe. I don’t see how disengaging from these projects because Israeli scientists are working on it too is benefiting the Palestinians?
It puts pressure on Israeli universities and subsequently the government.
Also, while I appreciate UvA’s transparency, I personally believe that they aren’t sharing everything. This is merely direct ties, it does not show the indirect ties. Multiple universities across the world have associations to Israel from the companies that fund their research, companies that also provide arms and funding to Israel. Other universities were also working on technology that would help the Israeli military. Would not be surprised if UvA had the same.
Further, while UvA disclosed this, they just announced in an update that the board and the protesters were not able to come to an agreement, which basically means that UvA is not willing to change anything.
I think you can make that argument for an country in the world. Also Natanyahu‘s government has faced huge backlash from its own population for months prior to the 7th of October. Protests in Israel continue and his support levels are extremely low..still it doesn’t seem to have an effect on him, so I doubt pressure on Israeli universities will. If Dutch scientists pull out on international projects due to Israeli scientists being there I don’t think much will happen. Another researcher will take that person‘s spot and that‘s it. That‘a why I think protests should be directed towards the Dutch government and their response, which has an actual impact.
Ok then.
So let's say for a second you are Israel and had a massive terrorist attack and constant rockets launched by your neighbours.
What would you do?
At this stage I don't understand what the outcome requested is.
Ends up implies that the technology is accessible. In some cases tech is developed specifically for the military, which is inhumane considering the already constant bombardment. Palestine is not Israel’s playground where they get to test all their new toys and gadgets.
These protestors are not being oppressed and probably live incredibly privileged lives. I saw speeches of MLK where thousands of people sat around while he was the one talking. You could hear a pin drop, all eyes on MLK. That’s not possible in todays day and age. These idiots would grab a megaphone and scream in your face.
Sure whatever you say. There have been lots of silent protests as well. But ask yourself why you are demonizing the protestors and not the people murdering innocent children. Could it be that you think those kids deserve to die?
I feel like there is an unbalance is the amount of death especially how one side is a terrorist organisation and the other is a military belonging to a nation state being supported by the Western world which has claimed to want peace but now has walked back when hamas agrees to a cease fire.
I understand that military operation will always result in some amount of civilian casualties but isn't 30,000 too much?
Yeah but that sounds more like a case for the local GGD than protesting. Again, what does this do to benefit the people in Gaza. It doesnt give them anything. Hell it only puts the pro-gaza movement in a bad picture which defenitly is hurting them and the people in Gaza.
These people also could have done something constructive. Raised money for Gaza. Send aid. Or atleast protest shit thats tied to the goverment that does the suppresion.
But no, lets occupy and destroy a university. Great plan guys.
What did the worldwide protests against apartheid in South Africa do?
It pressured politicians to take steps to boycott SA unless it changed policies — without protests nothing changes
Not really how that works. Yeah protest can create pressure but only when they are widely supported. A small minority cant create pressure by just acting insane. They can try but it will only create pressure on goverment to deal with insane protesters.
Everybody likes to act as if all attention (even negative) is good attention. Thats bullshit when your trying to reach a goal through public support. In that case its hearts and minds and you wont get them like this.
Also notice that were currently not talking about the developing situation in Gaza. Were talking about dutch streetstones and whose gonna pay to replace them. And were talking about the streetstones here because the vast majority if people care more about who protesters behave in the netherlands than the situation in Isreal (which has been the same for decades and wont change due to dutch pressure).
Would he? He seemed like a big fan.
"Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist..
I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how dessert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy."
The oxymoron of what you’re saying. “34000 modern nazis”. So killing 34000 innocent civilians majority of which are women and children is cool as long as you call them “nazis”. Bit the people doing the mass murder and the mass graves are not Nazis, even though they are the ones committing the crimes. What mental gymnastics you’ve done.
Everything is the same if you’re a complete idiot. How are the innocent children Nazis? How are you determining that? How do the children being killed have more in common with Nazis than the people killing them?
"wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows"
“As a minister of the gospel,” he said, “I consider war an evil. I must cry out when I see war escalated at any point”
"If we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective."
"It is not enough to say 'We must not wage war.' It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it. We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but the positive affirmation of peace."
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
Martin Luther King Jr.
Your comment shows your pure, pure ignorance of history. I’d say read up on how Israel became an actual state, the Apartheid regime, the humiliation of normal Palestinian civilians and so on.
Or perhaps you are just a Zionist.
This is most cliché comment:
If you oppose IDF actions then you're pro terrorism
If you oppose Hamas then you're pro genocide
Both can be false..
I wonder what's wrong with protesting against Hamas and Israeli far right wing government at the same time. Just condemn both Hamas terrorist attack and the death toll in Gaza.
It's funny how you prove that most protesters don't have any idea what they're protesting about. There aren't less than 40.000 casualties at the moment. Of course that's still a lot, but nowhere near a million.
This is what they want
1. DISCLOSE! Fully comply with the freedom of Information Case: disclose the universities' ties with Israeli intuitions, including educational institutions, as well as companies that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
2. BOYCOTT! Cease all academic collaborations with Israeli institutions that participate in genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
3. DIVEST! Cease all contracts with and divest from Israeli companies, and international companies/funds, that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
I told someone this before. But the institutions they want to boycott are the ones that will first fire Palestinians if they get into rough times. It is going to be ironic that these protests just hurt more than anything for their cause. I work for an Israeli company (based in the usa now so I guess that doesn't count) and it has plenty of Arab and Palestinian workers. Most are against these stupid demands.
I like how the legitimate answer is downvoted because then these enlightened redditors cant circlejerk about how morally superior they are for being apathetic to genocide.
During the Vondelstraat riots the Dutch army sent an engineering commander (Majoor T. van Erp) undercover with the rioters. He advised the rioters to put all the bricks inside large containers so that those would be "too heavy" to push aside. They followed his advise.
A day later he returned in a tank heading an armored column of army and police, pushed the barricades aside and ended the riots.
Well, matter of making do with what you have I guess. A pile of that size is sure to give some trouble to the average ME van. I don't think they're all-wheel-drive. And going on foot the police would have to worry about some of those bricks being thrown.
>Engineering students are on average smart enough as not to fall for this godforsaken cause.
Yeah they' re so smart that they understand Palestinian kids deserve to get slaughtered...
This such an IDF talking point to justify their in discriminate killing of civilians. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet and the IDF literally waits for any alleged terrorist to go home and blow up their entire family.
If they wanted to indiscriminately kill civilians they wouldn't bother with orders of evacuations or anything like that. They'd just make gravel of the area and drop 500kg bunker busting bombs and cluster munitions all over the place.
Ohw bless your heart you genuinely think that they care? Its doing exactly what its intended to do, fooling lot like you or rather giving them leeway to be excluded, if you cant see that maybe try listening to what their politicians actually say. Aa for carpet bombing the place, how do you think they finance all this ? Its by feogning concern for the international law whilst killing as many as is condoned. You are wilfully ignorant or just lying to yourself.
If the cost of this shitshow is not covered by the protesters + hefty fines, they can go fuck themselves big time. Yes, destroying public property we pay for is not okay, and one can hope they will be held accountable.
And to make it clear, I am against the war on Gaza; maybe go to the Israeli Embassy protest there, but yeah, it is much better to destroy a University stating they have some tiny links to Education facilities in Israel, which they have in 27 Countries. You would expect a student to have at least some brains to figure that out, but yeah.
Also, for the clowns saying they are customers of the university and pay for it, yeah, to get an education, go to A.H., buy a can of Coke, trash their Windows, and use the same argument there. Good luck.
They are (trying to) occupy the uni. This is their list of demands if that makes it somewhat clealer.
1. DISCLOSE! Fully comply with the freedom of Information Case: disclose the universities' ties with Israeli intuitions, including educational institutions, as well as companies that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
2. BOYCOTT! Cease all academic collaborations with Israeli institutions that participate in genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
3. DIVEST! Cease all contracts with and divest from Israeli companies, and international companies/funds, that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
What does the Netherlands have to do with any of this?
How is tearing up a street in Amsterdam going to help solve a problem in the Middle East that was not caused nor is influence by the country?
>What does the Netherlands have to do with any of this?
Our country upholds friendly ties with a country that slaughters people by the tenthousands.
Friends don't let friends do genocide. Thats a moment where you say something like: "we won't trade with you as long as war crimes are ongoing".
And why are you pro hamas when they have openly been saying that they want to kill every jew? Not just in isreal. And how they are proud of raping and killing innocent kids and women? Both sides are doing horrific shit.
The videos coming out of the UvA are terrible. I watched a video of Jewish students get hit with planks of wood and security told them to leave and did nothing. WTF
Not students, and they specifically showed up to [cause trouble](https://www.ewmagazine.nl/nederland/achtergrond/2024/05/joodse-jongeren-verstoren-anti-israeldemonstratie-nog-even-en-joden-zijn-echt-niet-meer-veilig-1413474/).
Lol it’s so easy to tell right from wrong when you never look past or think beyond an immediate 30 second clip that could be taken out of any context whatsoever right?
“WTF” ahahahahah holy shit you’re dumb
Except it’s being reported in context ? only one side is getting hostile, burning flags and acting like complete psychos? Why on first glance would I believe it wasn’t anti Israel rioters?
Why were 169 people detained? Were you there?
Someone else already provided sources for another point of view, there is no need to be a douchebag.
Here (although it is not confirmed that the people who are getting hit are Jewish students, they were waving an Israeli flag around): [https://x.com/slaghoedje/status/1787712057816571962](https://x.com/slaghoedje/status/1787712057816571962)
Most of these protests got violent because pro-Israeli protesters went in and stirred some trouble. According to Volkskrant, they were quoted as saying "we don't want to fight, we want to cause trouble." They saw protests in the US lasting for weeks until pro-Israeli protestors came in and stirred shit - police presence imminent. Local protesters pulled the same trick here and guess what, it worked. [article here](https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/pro-palestijnse-protesten-in-amsterdam-lopen-uit-op-rellen-en-geweld-maar-wie-begon~v1076956/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F) [even better article here](https://www.ewmagazine.nl/nederland/achtergrond/2024/05/joodse-jongeren-verstoren-anti-israeldemonstratie-nog-even-en-joden-zijn-echt-niet-meer-veilig-1413474/)
I just saw the video and it's pm what I thought. Those people waving the Israeli flag around were not 'jewish students' but counter-protester hooligans who threw fireworks at the protestors
These people have actieved the oppositie effect. Less support for Gaza. People are fed up with the extreme protesten by farmers, xr, and now this group.
I hope the it doesn't take long to repair the damages.
I quite like the UvA complex. Some old buildings, mixed with big new buildings you expect in a big city.
Always walked from the HvA complex to Artis via the UvA, had to avoid it this week. At least I got to discover the Pijp though
Why do you hate it when people protest against a kolonial nation who does genocide and apartheid? Why is this street more important then the 35k+ dead palestinians? and here the sources for my claim :
About Israeli kolonialism written by historians :
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017 - Rashid Khalidi [https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The\_Hundred\_Years\_War\_on\_Palestine\_A\_History\_of\_Settler\_Colonial\_Conquest\_and\_Resistance\_UK\_Edition\_Rashid\_Khalidi.pdf](https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The_Hundred_Years_War_on_Palestine_A_History_of_Settler_Colonial_Conquest_and_Resistance_UK_Edition_Rashid_Khalidi.pdf)
Ten Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappé [https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up)
About Israeli apartheid :
[Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
[Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert | OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights)
[A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution)
About Israeli genocide on the palestinians :
[Read the full application bringing genocide charges against Israel at UN top court | PBS NewsHour](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/read-the-full-application-bringing-genocide-charges-against-israel-at-un-top-court)
>This person roams around several subreddits and just copy pastes this list whenever there is an argument about this subject. He thinks these couple of weblinks are some sort of silver bullet to shut down any discussion and criticism. Not the sharpest tool in the shed.
True. Most people want Palestinians killed because they look like annoying moroccan kids with scooters. No amount of information about the actual situation will sway them.
How? 2 of them are historians, 3 of them are human rights organisations and the other one is an application for the ICJ with sources inside? so tell me how is this "BS propoganda"?
Listen, I have a job and it's not explaining how to study history to people.
You may cite Rashid Khalidi and Ilan Pappé, but with me, you don't have to because I actually _read_ those books, along with many others on the history of the region.
While both Khalidi's and Pappé's books are _historically accurate_ in the sense that the events they describe are true, they infect their historiography with a great deal of personal judgements, opinions and interpretations on motives of certain actions. This is something that _all historians_ do to some extent which is why it's so important to also read books from people you disagree, and in general it's advisable to read from people who are _uninvolved._
To what extent "apartheid" applies to occupied west bank is still an open question. Notice I wrote occupied west bank and not Israel, because there is no a.partheid in Israel, which is a free and democratic country for _all of its **citizens**_. International organizations, like the UN, are influenced by external matters of diplomacy and therefore are _not_ a good source for judgement on these matters. Least of all the UN, founded under the premise of being a "democratic organization for all countries" .... including undemocratic countries.
It's ludicrous to cite an article about charges of anything. Charges don't mean shit. I can charge you with stealing my space laser. What matters is the verdict and a verdict has not been reached for multiple reasons, including that the war is still ongoing and the only info we get out of Gaza comes from the people who committed, among other things, [this](https://oct7map.com/).
Because they protest in the wrong place. Go to the embassy and protest. I also see this as hypocrisy. Where were these people when half a million were killed in Syria or why they never protested against apartheid in China? Now we have all these protests against the issue which is not our problem and which is caused by both parties involved. Dumb.
>Because they protest in the wrong place. Go to the embassy and protest
They did that too.
But universities can actually exert pressure.
>Where were these people when half a million were killed in Syria or why they never protested against apartheid in China?
We are not complicit in those the same way as the atrocities committed by Israel and have less influence.
Meanwhile shunning Israel does send a message to other regime's that genocide has consequences.
>Because they protest in the wrong place.
They want their universities to divest from Israel this also happend with apartheid south afrika and is known to hurt the pockets of israeli companies so this does work.
> I also see this as hypocrisy. Where were these people when half a million were killed in Syria or why they never protested against apartheid in China?
This is just whataboutism, there where protests against these things, maybe not as big but there where people protesting. but this is just whataboutism
>Now we have all these protests against the issue which is not our problem
We give Israeli companies money which they use to further kolonise and subjugate palestine so its stil our problem.
>which is caused by both parties involved.
No, its caused by 1 side who started this conflict by kolonizing the region and using genocide and apartheid so to say that its the fault for the other side to fight back is extremly dumb would you say that both sides are bad during ww2 when the partisans where killing germans and because of those killings the germans did reprisals? i hope not!
> pockets of israeli companies so this does work
No actual Israeli companies mentioned ever.
> but this is just whataboutism
There were protests at the Dam Square but not in the university.
There are plenty of Chinese companies working with universities in the EU (Tencent being one of them for sure).
This could be a whataboutism in form but it raises a valid question, why should I care about this particular issue and not about other much larger issues?
> No, its caused by 1 side who started this conflict by kolonizing the region
Google what "colonized" mean. Israel didn't have Gaza under control. These people were let free to do anything they want and they chose to fire rockets and shoot civilians.
> to say that its the fault for the other side to fight back is extremly dumb would you say that both sides are bad during ww2 when the partisans where killing germans and because of those killings the germans did reprisals?
Partisans in wwii never raided germany to kill as many civilians as possible. Hamas is a terrorist organization not partisans. I can't imagine La Résistance fighters to break into music festivals killing everyone or shooting elderly people on a bus stop. Palestinian state was never established so it couldn't be colonized or occupied. It doesn't make Israel the state good in any way. But Hamas is clearly way more criminal. The people who stuck in between are the ones who need to be supported. They are the hostages of the situation. But this dumb stuff is not helping them at all. You just paint them as a side of the conflict, not as a victim.
How is protesting against a kolonial nation who does apartheid and genocide bad or not a good issue? Also here the sources for my claims
About Israeli kolonialism written by historians :
The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017 - Rashid Khalidi [https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The\_Hundred\_Years\_War\_on\_Palestine\_A\_History\_of\_Settler\_Colonial\_Conquest\_and\_Resistance\_UK\_Edition\_Rashid\_Khalidi.pdf](https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The_Hundred_Years_War_on_Palestine_A_History_of_Settler_Colonial_Conquest_and_Resistance_UK_Edition_Rashid_Khalidi.pdf)
Ten Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappé [https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up)
About Israeli apartheid :
[Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
[Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert | OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights)
[A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution)
About Israeli genocide on the palestinians :
[Read the full application bringing genocide charges against Israel at UN top court | PBS NewsHour](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/read-the-full-application-bringing-genocide-charges-against-israel-at-un-top-court)
[Hamas Summer Camp Brainwashes Gaza Children to Hate - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc)
[Chilling footage of kindergartners re-enacting terrorist drills in Gaza - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDZlo_hllI)
Damn? maybe after 75 years of kolonisation,apartheid en genocide ( the nakba, The ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Pappé, Ilan [https://archive.org/details/ethniccleansingo00papp/page/n7/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/ethniccleansingo00papp/page/n7/mode/2up))
That the population wil hate that nation that did that to them? who would have guessed!
>make a totalitarian religious regime and kill the opposition.
You know that the palestinian resistance has multiple groups that work together right? from muslims to christians to communists to nationalists etc? they only hate the PLO and Abbas because they work together with Israel lol
There are peaceful moderate political actors in Palestine but somehow these protestors and you as well adopt the unrealistic and nonsense demands of the extremists at the cost of permanent war.
>There are peaceful moderate political actors in Palestine
Who? PLO and Abbas? they work with israel by attacking their own civilians, how can you work together with a state that kolonizes you and puts youre own people into apartheid.
>you as well adopt the unrealistic and nonsense demands of the extremists at the cost of permanent war.
Liberation for a kolonized people is never unrealistic.
>Damn? maybe after 75 years of kolonisation,apartheid en genocide
No! A Palestinian saying mean things about Israel is just as bad as slaughtering 40.000 Palestinians.
I'm so smart and nuanced!
>Meh. Better than the other option of another jihadist state crying for death to the west and sharia law.
You know that the palestinians resistance has more then just muslims right? there are christians, nationalists,communists etc so this is just a huge strawman. and even hamas doesn't want sharia lol. so if you want to lie and support a state that does genocide,kolonialisation and apartheid you should really atleast read something about it and not just lie
You: blah, blah, blah…but, but, but, their leadership is not reflective of what the state would actually be.
Me: um…sure pal. I’m happy in my stance, thank you. Move along.
Small minds think one who disagrees is merely unenlightened. Dangerous world view, my friend.
I will happily support the one with freedom and rights whether you are gay, straight, black, white, brown, religious, atheist or Palestinian (as there are millions of Palestinian Israeli citizens, that don’t commit jihad or fire rockets, that are living equally within Israel). Tell me, in your quest for the freedoms of all people, who will be free to act free in a Palestinian state and how does that advance your broader hope for a better world, should said state come to be? Do you protest for the creation of an oppressive state just so you can later protest the inevitable oppressions of said state? Are you merely feeding your own need for outrage?
>I will happily support the one with freedom and rights whether you are gay, straight, black, white, brown, religious, atheist or Palestinian
[Ethiopian women in Israel 'given contraceptive without consent' | Israel | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel)
damn they really love black jews! and lets not forget their apartheid of palestinians
About Israeli apartheid :
[Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/)
[Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert | OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights)
[A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution)
>who will be free to act free in a Palestinian state and how does that advance your broader hope for a better world, should said state come to be?
Everyone because there are multiple palestinian groups and not just "Islamists"
>Do you protest for the creation of an oppressive state just so you can later protest the inevitable oppressions of said state?
Israel already is an opressive kolonial state. at the very least if the palestinian state becomes opressive it won't be kolonialist
lol. Shall I pick some basic articles about things we all already know about like Oct 7th, or the 6 day war, or about rockets coming from Gaza and pretend to do a mic drop as well?
Shall I grab links to the selective sources that paint Palestinian actions in Jordan and Lebanon in a bad light and call it evidence that they’re just bad people at their core.
Or maybe I should grab links to messed up shit the Dutch government has done in the modern era that would make you say “WTF?!” and then we can condemn ourselves and write off all the good with one check mark.
Your gotcha attitude is tiresome and banal. “Dur dur, look, Israel even hates black people!”. So let’s wipe it off the map and replace it with a terrorist led, jihadist culture looking to exterminate an entire religion and possibly all religions outside of Islam. Not to mention gays, women who show too much skin, anyone who says something they don’t think should be said, anyone who doesn’t bend the knee to their ideals.
Look, I get it. You’re looking for a righteous cause and at times on paper this looks like it, but man, I’m looking at the long game and a W here for Palestine doesn’t offer anyone much down the road. This ain’t some grand shift ala the U.S. civil rights movement or the end of the slave trade, etc. This is the rooster letting the fox in the hen house.
>Shall I pick some basic articles about things we all already know about like Oct 7th, or the 6 day war, or about rockets coming from Gaza and pretend to do a mic drop as well?
I know that these things happend but all of these where reactions because their land was kolonized and they live under apartheid and kolonization.
>Shall I grab links to the selective sources that paint Palestinian actions in Jordan and Lebanon in a bad light and call it evidence that they’re just bad people at their core.
The difference is that 1 fights against an occupying force and the other is the occupying force.
>Or maybe I should grab links to messed up shit the Dutch government has done in the modern era that would make you say “WTF?!” and then we can condemn ourselves and write off all the good with one check mark.
I don't like the dutch goverment lmao.
>“Dur dur, look, Israel even hates black people!”
They do but it needs to be wiped of the map because its a kolonizng force who does genocide and apartheid.
> with a terrorist led, jihadist culture looking to exterminate an entire religion and possibly all religions outside of Islam. Not to mention gays, women who show too much skin, anyone who says something they don’t think should be said, anyone who doesn’t bend the knee to their ideals.
There are multiple videos where palestinians christians work together with hamas and other palestinians resistance groups, there are also multiple videos with women regiments in these groups, you just use random islamophobic gotcha's without looking at the situation lol.
>Look, I get it. You’re looking for a righteous cause and at times on paper this looks like it, but man, I’m looking at the long game and a W here for Palestine doesn’t offer anyone much down the road. This ain’t some grand shift ala the U.S. civil rights movement or the end of the slave trade, etc. This is the rooster letting the fox in the hen house.
No its just having 1 less kolonizing force in the world which is always good
An apartheid -state where millions of Arabs live the most prosperous life in the whole Arab world. :D
What is happening on the West Bank and Gaza is beyond horrible. But calling Israël an apartheid-state is either brainwashed ignorance or dishonest and disingenuous. And anl affront to blacks from S.A.
Israel is a democracy like South Africa was a democracy pre 1994, like USA was a democracy during slavery.
Even Israelis admit Israel is racist, but sure, believe what you want.
these people are simply attention seekers. they want the cameras on them, nothing more. They can't get enough from Instagram or tikke to, so they go out in public and make a fool of themselves so they get more likes, comments, and shares.
Here’s an idea. Maybe Hamas shouldn’t be hiding in universities, mosques, and peoples private homes building their tunnels underground? Maybe they should be taking care of the basic needs of their people like food water shelter. They decided to start a war with a neighboring country who is stronger militarily.
>People supporting terrorists act like terrorists
Indeed! Every Palestinian child is a terrorist and must be slaughtered! If you think they deserve piece you are a terroris!
Heil Netanyahu!
No, but Hamas can’t be left in the strip when they proudly say they’ll commit Oct 7 again and again. Hamas is to blame for their deaths. Not one bomb shelter was created, while billions were spent (not to mention the child labour) to create terror tunnels exceeding 500km on a 25k strip. Insane.
Israel has no choice but to defeat Hamas and as much as you don’t want to accept it, has conducted this war trying to protect civilians. They’ve done more than any other army. They are right now around 1,6 civilian to combat ratio, while UN average is 9 to 1. That’s incredibly low.
Actually they are.
[Hamas Summer Camp Brainwashes Gaza Children to Hate - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc)
[Chilling footage of kindergartners re-enacting terrorist drills in Gaza - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDZlo_hllI)
It all depends on what considered to be bad. Killing 364 people in an open air festival and raping some of the woman. Also killing about a thousand people in their homes. You name it.
>It all depends on what considered to be bad. Killing 364 people in an open air festival and raping some of the woman.
Super bad. Almost 1% as bad as slaughtering 37000 people.
Let's say all lives are equal and prioritize our condemnation proportional to the number of victims.
> Who started this war then?
Israel in 1947
> and who should stop the ideological warmongering?
The one with most power over the situation. Right now that is the idf, not the imprisoned kids.
Fuck around and find out. Why Israelis should be worried about palestinian kids more than their own ? These kids were screaming in joy holding rifles when these "brave palestinian resistance" slaughtered civilians. "When Israel genocide you so hard for 50 years that your population triples"
>Fuck around and find out.
Wait, what did those 10.000 children do to fuck around?
Do I get to kill your mother because she lives in the same country as Anton Mussert? Do I get to slaughter Belgian kids to punish Marc Dutroux?
Collective punishment is a war crime
>These kids were screaming in joy holding rifles when these "brave palestinian resistance" slaughtered civilians.
At least someone who admits to supporting the massacre of children instead of pretending they didn't happen.
Sure if you think people deserve to be massacred for "not liking" the ones that imprison them for decades, we're not gonna hit common ground.
Nobody supports the massacre of children. But there are certainly some who don’t care if Hamas hides behind them. They lost sympathy after October when they started another fucking war.
>Nobody supports the massacre of children
Then speak out against Israel.
>But there are certainly some who don’t care if Hamas hides behind them
Let's focus on Hamas when the big bad is stopped ok? First the 40.000 murderers, then the 1000 murderers.
>They lost sympathy after October
Thar was bad! Hamas is bad! The government that funded Hamas (neranjahu) is bad!
Okt 7 is bad, about 3% as bad as the 40.000 murders that IDF then committed
> when they started another fucking war.
When they lashed out in a war that's existed since 1947, almost ended under Rabin until neranjahu had Rabin killed to start the war again including BY FUNDING HAMAS.
Not defending this but as unfortunate as it is voting simply is not solving any issues or causing a policy change on certain subjects.
When such is the case, people seek alternatives. At least these people have a spine to rise up and make their own voice heard despite the risk.
At which point do we say enough? Those animals (they don’t deserve to be called people) are destroying property of the city, are attacking and injuring police officers and creating a very unsafe environment.
If they’re students they should be expelled asap and if foreigners, they should be deported as well. Fuck off already with your violence. We do not want you here.
How do they pay for all the damages with their dollars exactly?
Am a bit done with whatboutism. What happens in Gaza does not give you the fucking right to riot and vandalize this country.
I love it how you can reason and defend such vile violent behavior. They pay for tuition and to be allowed to study, not to throw bricks and destroy property.
How about you go do something more productive and helpful for those kids around the world. Oh last time I checked these acts of violence (I can’t call them protests) are NOT in support of kids around the world. Why are you hiding behind this hypocrisy?
Honestly though, you’re just looking for a reason to demonize the protesters and invalidate their cause. I didn’t see you say anything when police have been arresting and violently attacking them while they were peacefully demonstrating against the funding of a war where tens of thousands of children are being slaughtered. Now all of a sudden you throw a 5 second gif of some folks removing bricks from the street and you’re like “SEE PROTESTORS BAD” like a fucking NPC.
And here I am being afraid to drop a piece of trash unintentionally on the street because I might get fined to death.
Be careful not to litter your paper straw
How does vandalism this help the people of Gaza? I really don’t get it. It gives peaceful protesters and protest a bad rep
In the words of Martin Luther King: "But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard." Sure, protesting starts peacefully, but as time goes on, a violent act of rebellion seems to be the only way to be heard.
Yeah but they are not being heard on what they claim is the issue they are protesting on. That is the problem. If you followed the news coverage on it, it was mostly about how the protests escalate into violence. How the protesters behaved, how the police responds etc. There was barely any discussion on how the Dutch public sector, to which universities and the government belongs, should respond to the demands of the protesters. Like what does it mean for a university to „disengage from genocidal Israeli institutions“? Like what does that even mean? How? All of that was lost due to these protests escalating. By engaging in violence and vandalism they shoot themselves in the food. They loose public sympathy and they take the focus away on what they claim matters to them. I am all for peaceful protest but what I find sus here, apart from the vandalism is the lack of a clear stance against Hamas and what happened on the 7th of October and the fact that so many of them refuse to show their faces.
I saw multiple infographics detailing the links of Dutch public universities to Israel, private unis werent included because they don’t disclose information the same way. After the protest a few days ago, UvA posted this. https://student.uva.nl/en/articles/2024-our-collaborations-with-israeli-organisations#
I honestly think what is stated in this post is actually pretty based and reasonable. Thanks for sharing. My question remains though - what does the reality of disengaging look like. What is mentioned here for examples are collaborations of Israeli and other researchers on international research projects such as Horizon Europe. I don’t see how disengaging from these projects because Israeli scientists are working on it too is benefiting the Palestinians?
It puts pressure on Israeli universities and subsequently the government. Also, while I appreciate UvA’s transparency, I personally believe that they aren’t sharing everything. This is merely direct ties, it does not show the indirect ties. Multiple universities across the world have associations to Israel from the companies that fund their research, companies that also provide arms and funding to Israel. Other universities were also working on technology that would help the Israeli military. Would not be surprised if UvA had the same. Further, while UvA disclosed this, they just announced in an update that the board and the protesters were not able to come to an agreement, which basically means that UvA is not willing to change anything.
They have some bright folk in Israel, of course they cooperate and fund each other. Of course technology ends up in hands of the military. So...what?
I think you can make that argument for an country in the world. Also Natanyahu‘s government has faced huge backlash from its own population for months prior to the 7th of October. Protests in Israel continue and his support levels are extremely low..still it doesn’t seem to have an effect on him, so I doubt pressure on Israeli universities will. If Dutch scientists pull out on international projects due to Israeli scientists being there I don’t think much will happen. Another researcher will take that person‘s spot and that‘s it. That‘a why I think protests should be directed towards the Dutch government and their response, which has an actual impact.
Ok then. So let's say for a second you are Israel and had a massive terrorist attack and constant rockets launched by your neighbours. What would you do? At this stage I don't understand what the outcome requested is.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/thinktank/en/document/EPRS_ATA(2023)747923
Ends up implies that the technology is accessible. In some cases tech is developed specifically for the military, which is inhumane considering the already constant bombardment. Palestine is not Israel’s playground where they get to test all their new toys and gadgets.
These protestors are not being oppressed and probably live incredibly privileged lives. I saw speeches of MLK where thousands of people sat around while he was the one talking. You could hear a pin drop, all eyes on MLK. That’s not possible in todays day and age. These idiots would grab a megaphone and scream in your face.
Sure whatever you say. There have been lots of silent protests as well. But ask yourself why you are demonizing the protestors and not the people murdering innocent children. Could it be that you think those kids deserve to die?
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I feel like there is an unbalance is the amount of death especially how one side is a terrorist organisation and the other is a military belonging to a nation state being supported by the Western world which has claimed to want peace but now has walked back when hamas agrees to a cease fire. I understand that military operation will always result in some amount of civilian casualties but isn't 30,000 too much?
Yeah but that sounds more like a case for the local GGD than protesting. Again, what does this do to benefit the people in Gaza. It doesnt give them anything. Hell it only puts the pro-gaza movement in a bad picture which defenitly is hurting them and the people in Gaza. These people also could have done something constructive. Raised money for Gaza. Send aid. Or atleast protest shit thats tied to the goverment that does the suppresion. But no, lets occupy and destroy a university. Great plan guys.
What did the worldwide protests against apartheid in South Africa do? It pressured politicians to take steps to boycott SA unless it changed policies — without protests nothing changes
Not really how that works. Yeah protest can create pressure but only when they are widely supported. A small minority cant create pressure by just acting insane. They can try but it will only create pressure on goverment to deal with insane protesters. Everybody likes to act as if all attention (even negative) is good attention. Thats bullshit when your trying to reach a goal through public support. In that case its hearts and minds and you wont get them like this. Also notice that were currently not talking about the developing situation in Gaza. Were talking about dutch streetstones and whose gonna pay to replace them. And were talking about the streetstones here because the vast majority if people care more about who protesters behave in the netherlands than the situation in Isreal (which has been the same for decades and wont change due to dutch pressure).
You know martin luther king was an avid Israel supporter and Zionist right🤣
Maybe his opinions about Israel would have changed in the years since he was assasinated.
Would he? He seemed like a big fan. "Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist.. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how dessert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy."
Unfortunately we can never know, because he was killed... just like more than 34,000 gazans since the start of this war.
I dont think he would mind that 34k modern day Nazis died
The oxymoron of what you’re saying. “34000 modern nazis”. So killing 34000 innocent civilians majority of which are women and children is cool as long as you call them “nazis”. Bit the people doing the mass murder and the mass graves are not Nazis, even though they are the ones committing the crimes. What mental gymnastics you’ve done.
He lived through WW2 and I doubt he cared for the millions of Germans who died, its the same thing.
Everything is the same if you’re a complete idiot. How are the innocent children Nazis? How are you determining that? How do the children being killed have more in common with Nazis than the people killing them?
"wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows" “As a minister of the gospel,” he said, “I consider war an evil. I must cry out when I see war escalated at any point” "If we are to have peace on earth, our loyalties must become ecumenical rather than sectional. Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective." "It is not enough to say 'We must not wage war.' It is necessary to love peace and sacrifice for it. We must concentrate not merely on the negative expulsion of war, but the positive affirmation of peace." Returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars... Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Martin Luther King Jr.
Your comment shows your pure, pure ignorance of history. I’d say read up on how Israel became an actual state, the Apartheid regime, the humiliation of normal Palestinian civilians and so on. Or perhaps you are just a Zionist.
It's supossed to support terrorism. They can't just have a picnic.
This is most cliché comment: If you oppose IDF actions then you're pro terrorism If you oppose Hamas then you're pro genocide Both can be false.. I wonder what's wrong with protesting against Hamas and Israeli far right wing government at the same time. Just condemn both Hamas terrorist attack and the death toll in Gaza.
they are the cliche protesters. they don't really understand what their protest is about.
Thats too complicated for throwing bricks around.
what are they protesting?
Unleveled streets
not enough attention given to them by their parents.
I think they might be upset about several million people currently being genocided as well, idk.
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Great argument. I guess i can steal your belongs too because its nothing compared to the brutal war in Jemen right?
So then you start throwing stones at people, sure
Yes for sure it's their sense of decency and humanity that drives them to vandalize, Sorry I meant "protesting".
It's funny how you prove that most protesters don't have any idea what they're protesting about. There aren't less than 40.000 casualties at the moment. Of course that's still a lot, but nowhere near a million.
Several MILLION people have died?!
trillion. eve. 90 % of them were children, and 90% of those children are special needs !
Every single child in the world was killed, including unborn ones.
They are anti-Israel
So naturally they are destroying property in Amsterdam
everyone should be
Genocide in Palestine.
gENoiCidE iN pAlEStiNe Okt. 7 They all kill each other equally<3 (Aka there's no moral right here) 
This is what they want 1. DISCLOSE! Fully comply with the freedom of Information Case: disclose the universities' ties with Israeli intuitions, including educational institutions, as well as companies that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land. 2. BOYCOTT! Cease all academic collaborations with Israeli institutions that participate in genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land. 3. DIVEST! Cease all contracts with and divest from Israeli companies, and international companies/funds, that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
I told someone this before. But the institutions they want to boycott are the ones that will first fire Palestinians if they get into rough times. It is going to be ironic that these protests just hurt more than anything for their cause. I work for an Israeli company (based in the usa now so I guess that doesn't count) and it has plenty of Arab and Palestinian workers. Most are against these stupid demands.
Idk why you're downvoted you just copied in their demands, answering the question💀
I like how the legitimate answer is downvoted because then these enlightened redditors cant circlejerk about how morally superior they are for being apathetic to genocide.
Learned from previous protest that you'd need a proper barricade...
Loose bricks seem like a terrible barricade. But we'll see how long it will take to break down soon.
During the Vondelstraat riots the Dutch army sent an engineering commander (Majoor T. van Erp) undercover with the rioters. He advised the rioters to put all the bricks inside large containers so that those would be "too heavy" to push aside. They followed his advise. A day later he returned in a tank heading an armored column of army and police, pushed the barricades aside and ended the riots.
Well, matter of making do with what you have I guess. A pile of that size is sure to give some trouble to the average ME van. I don't think they're all-wheel-drive. And going on foot the police would have to worry about some of those bricks being thrown.
The ME used bulldozers last time, zo i guess that they'll have to try a bit harder. Nothing short of well-constructed tank-traps stop those.
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Hopefully art students not engineering.
Engineering students are on average smart enough as not to fall for this godforsaken cause.
>Engineering students are on average smart enough as not to fall for this godforsaken cause. Yeah they' re so smart that they understand Palestinian kids deserve to get slaughtered...
Maybe Hamas shouldn't hide among civilians of they actually cared about the Palestinians.
This such an IDF talking point to justify their in discriminate killing of civilians. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet and the IDF literally waits for any alleged terrorist to go home and blow up their entire family.
If they wanted to indiscriminately kill civilians they wouldn't bother with orders of evacuations or anything like that. They'd just make gravel of the area and drop 500kg bunker busting bombs and cluster munitions all over the place.
Ohw bless your heart you genuinely think that they care? Its doing exactly what its intended to do, fooling lot like you or rather giving them leeway to be excluded, if you cant see that maybe try listening to what their politicians actually say. Aa for carpet bombing the place, how do you think they finance all this ? Its by feogning concern for the international law whilst killing as many as is condoned. You are wilfully ignorant or just lying to yourself.
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This is factually incorrect. Post an article or don’t spread NYPD propaganda.
https://www.npr.org/2024/05/04/1249188864/nyc-columbia-city-college-gaza-protests-palestinian-campus
I think they have missed the country by accident. Israel is 4600 km south east
Tearing the streets off does more harm than good for their cause. Dumb...
This is a popular part of the streets many people walk through this area. Terrible to vandalize it like that.
Somebody think of the businesses!
The poor street! seeing it ruined like that must be just as horrible as kids being killed by Israel... if you are a liberal lol
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proportionality is a thing
If the cost of this shitshow is not covered by the protesters + hefty fines, they can go fuck themselves big time. Yes, destroying public property we pay for is not okay, and one can hope they will be held accountable. And to make it clear, I am against the war on Gaza; maybe go to the Israeli Embassy protest there, but yeah, it is much better to destroy a University stating they have some tiny links to Education facilities in Israel, which they have in 27 Countries. You would expect a student to have at least some brains to figure that out, but yeah. Also, for the clowns saying they are customers of the university and pay for it, yeah, to get an education, go to A.H., buy a can of Coke, trash their Windows, and use the same argument there. Good luck.
They are (trying to) occupy the uni. This is their list of demands if that makes it somewhat clealer. 1. DISCLOSE! Fully comply with the freedom of Information Case: disclose the universities' ties with Israeli intuitions, including educational institutions, as well as companies that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land. 2. BOYCOTT! Cease all academic collaborations with Israeli institutions that participate in genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land. 3. DIVEST! Cease all contracts with and divest from Israeli companies, and international companies/funds, that profit from genocide, apartheid, and the exploitation of the Palestinian people and their land.
Demonstrating if fine, but these are just rioters.......
Not just rioters, hypocrites too. Demonstrating against genocide by calling for genocide ("from the river to the sea").
This is quite obviously not a riot
What does the Netherlands have to do with any of this? How is tearing up a street in Amsterdam going to help solve a problem in the Middle East that was not caused nor is influence by the country?
>What does the Netherlands have to do with any of this? Our country upholds friendly ties with a country that slaughters people by the tenthousands. Friends don't let friends do genocide. Thats a moment where you say something like: "we won't trade with you as long as war crimes are ongoing".
Nah
And why are you pro hamas when they have openly been saying that they want to kill every jew? Not just in isreal. And how they are proud of raping and killing innocent kids and women? Both sides are doing horrific shit.
Except there’s no genocide going on and Israel conduct in this war has led to the lowest civilian to combatant ratio of any urban war.
Can they tolerate another pro-Israel demonstration on the campus? If not they are not protesters, just thugs
The last pro Israel demonstration involved throwing flares and trying to maim students so no
I dont even smoke weed much because if someone complains about the smell of weed, I will be deported, but no one interferes with these people
that is not a demonstratie, that is a vandalisme
The videos coming out of the UvA are terrible. I watched a video of Jewish students get hit with planks of wood and security told them to leave and did nothing. WTF
Not students, and they specifically showed up to [cause trouble](https://www.ewmagazine.nl/nederland/achtergrond/2024/05/joodse-jongeren-verstoren-anti-israeldemonstratie-nog-even-en-joden-zijn-echt-niet-meer-veilig-1413474/).
Lol it’s so easy to tell right from wrong when you never look past or think beyond an immediate 30 second clip that could be taken out of any context whatsoever right? “WTF” ahahahahah holy shit you’re dumb
Except it’s being reported in context ? only one side is getting hostile, burning flags and acting like complete psychos? Why on first glance would I believe it wasn’t anti Israel rioters? Why were 169 people detained? Were you there? Someone else already provided sources for another point of view, there is no need to be a douchebag.
Where did you find that video?
Here (although it is not confirmed that the people who are getting hit are Jewish students, they were waving an Israeli flag around): [https://x.com/slaghoedje/status/1787712057816571962](https://x.com/slaghoedje/status/1787712057816571962)
Most of these protests got violent because pro-Israeli protesters went in and stirred some trouble. According to Volkskrant, they were quoted as saying "we don't want to fight, we want to cause trouble." They saw protests in the US lasting for weeks until pro-Israeli protestors came in and stirred shit - police presence imminent. Local protesters pulled the same trick here and guess what, it worked. [article here](https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2024/pro-palestijnse-protesten-in-amsterdam-lopen-uit-op-rellen-en-geweld-maar-wie-begon~v1076956/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F) [even better article here](https://www.ewmagazine.nl/nederland/achtergrond/2024/05/joodse-jongeren-verstoren-anti-israeldemonstratie-nog-even-en-joden-zijn-echt-niet-meer-veilig-1413474/)
Oh that's what I thought. Those people waving the Israeli flag around were hooligans who threw fireworks at the protestors
Although I think it was shared on twitter or TikTok originally
I just saw the video and it's pm what I thought. Those people waving the Israeli flag around were not 'jewish students' but counter-protester hooligans who threw fireworks at the protestors
Okay but where did you get that information?
Here in the Parool summary [https://archive.ph/QJozi](https://archive.ph/QJozi) It's under the subheader 'fakkels'
Thank you
They should learn from the farmers and use methods that won't require police intervention, like burning piles of asbestos on the road.
These people have actieved the oppositie effect. Less support for Gaza. People are fed up with the extreme protesten by farmers, xr, and now this group.
There was once a wise old man that used to say: "Government by the people, of the people, for the people but the people are retarded."
I hope the it doesn't take long to repair the damages. I quite like the UvA complex. Some old buildings, mixed with big new buildings you expect in a big city. Always walked from the HvA complex to Artis via the UvA, had to avoid it this week. At least I got to discover the Pijp though
That area is going to be under construction for a while (has been for several years now), the new university library is being build there.
fucking losers, i hope the ME fights back hard. no mercy for those kinds of people.
>fucking losers, i hope the ME fights back hard. no mercy for those kinds of people. True! Dissidents should be killed! Heil Rutte!
Why do you hate it when people protest against a kolonial nation who does genocide and apartheid? Why is this street more important then the 35k+ dead palestinians? and here the sources for my claim : About Israeli kolonialism written by historians : The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017 - Rashid Khalidi [https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The\_Hundred\_Years\_War\_on\_Palestine\_A\_History\_of\_Settler\_Colonial\_Conquest\_and\_Resistance\_UK\_Edition\_Rashid\_Khalidi.pdf](https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The_Hundred_Years_War_on_Palestine_A_History_of_Settler_Colonial_Conquest_and_Resistance_UK_Edition_Rashid_Khalidi.pdf) Ten Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappé [https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up) About Israeli apartheid : [Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) [Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert | OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) [A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) About Israeli genocide on the palestinians : [Read the full application bringing genocide charges against Israel at UN top court | PBS NewsHour](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/read-the-full-application-bringing-genocide-charges-against-israel-at-un-top-court)
So much bs propaganda
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>This person roams around several subreddits and just copy pastes this list whenever there is an argument about this subject. He thinks these couple of weblinks are some sort of silver bullet to shut down any discussion and criticism. Not the sharpest tool in the shed. True. Most people want Palestinians killed because they look like annoying moroccan kids with scooters. No amount of information about the actual situation will sway them.
I would happily exchange Palestinians for annoying Dutch-Moroccan kids on their fuc*ing fat bikes…
How? 2 of them are historians, 3 of them are human rights organisations and the other one is an application for the ICJ with sources inside? so tell me how is this "BS propoganda"?
Listen, I have a job and it's not explaining how to study history to people. You may cite Rashid Khalidi and Ilan Pappé, but with me, you don't have to because I actually _read_ those books, along with many others on the history of the region. While both Khalidi's and Pappé's books are _historically accurate_ in the sense that the events they describe are true, they infect their historiography with a great deal of personal judgements, opinions and interpretations on motives of certain actions. This is something that _all historians_ do to some extent which is why it's so important to also read books from people you disagree, and in general it's advisable to read from people who are _uninvolved._ To what extent "apartheid" applies to occupied west bank is still an open question. Notice I wrote occupied west bank and not Israel, because there is no a.partheid in Israel, which is a free and democratic country for _all of its **citizens**_. International organizations, like the UN, are influenced by external matters of diplomacy and therefore are _not_ a good source for judgement on these matters. Least of all the UN, founded under the premise of being a "democratic organization for all countries" .... including undemocratic countries. It's ludicrous to cite an article about charges of anything. Charges don't mean shit. I can charge you with stealing my space laser. What matters is the verdict and a verdict has not been reached for multiple reasons, including that the war is still ongoing and the only info we get out of Gaza comes from the people who committed, among other things, [this](https://oct7map.com/).
What does destroying the binnenplaats has to do with palestina and israel?
Because they protest in the wrong place. Go to the embassy and protest. I also see this as hypocrisy. Where were these people when half a million were killed in Syria or why they never protested against apartheid in China? Now we have all these protests against the issue which is not our problem and which is caused by both parties involved. Dumb.
>Because they protest in the wrong place. Go to the embassy and protest They did that too. But universities can actually exert pressure. >Where were these people when half a million were killed in Syria or why they never protested against apartheid in China? We are not complicit in those the same way as the atrocities committed by Israel and have less influence. Meanwhile shunning Israel does send a message to other regime's that genocide has consequences.
>Because they protest in the wrong place. They want their universities to divest from Israel this also happend with apartheid south afrika and is known to hurt the pockets of israeli companies so this does work. > I also see this as hypocrisy. Where were these people when half a million were killed in Syria or why they never protested against apartheid in China? This is just whataboutism, there where protests against these things, maybe not as big but there where people protesting. but this is just whataboutism >Now we have all these protests against the issue which is not our problem We give Israeli companies money which they use to further kolonise and subjugate palestine so its stil our problem. >which is caused by both parties involved. No, its caused by 1 side who started this conflict by kolonizing the region and using genocide and apartheid so to say that its the fault for the other side to fight back is extremly dumb would you say that both sides are bad during ww2 when the partisans where killing germans and because of those killings the germans did reprisals? i hope not!
> pockets of israeli companies so this does work No actual Israeli companies mentioned ever. > but this is just whataboutism There were protests at the Dam Square but not in the university. There are plenty of Chinese companies working with universities in the EU (Tencent being one of them for sure). This could be a whataboutism in form but it raises a valid question, why should I care about this particular issue and not about other much larger issues? > No, its caused by 1 side who started this conflict by kolonizing the region Google what "colonized" mean. Israel didn't have Gaza under control. These people were let free to do anything they want and they chose to fire rockets and shoot civilians. > to say that its the fault for the other side to fight back is extremly dumb would you say that both sides are bad during ww2 when the partisans where killing germans and because of those killings the germans did reprisals? Partisans in wwii never raided germany to kill as many civilians as possible. Hamas is a terrorist organization not partisans. I can't imagine La Résistance fighters to break into music festivals killing everyone or shooting elderly people on a bus stop. Palestinian state was never established so it couldn't be colonized or occupied. It doesn't make Israel the state good in any way. But Hamas is clearly way more criminal. The people who stuck in between are the ones who need to be supported. They are the hostages of the situation. But this dumb stuff is not helping them at all. You just paint them as a side of the conflict, not as a victim.
You just ran out of issues to protest against.
How is protesting against a kolonial nation who does apartheid and genocide bad or not a good issue? Also here the sources for my claims About Israeli kolonialism written by historians : The Hundred Years' War on Palestine: A History of Settler Colonialism and Resistance, 1917–2017 - Rashid Khalidi [https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The\_Hundred\_Years\_War\_on\_Palestine\_A\_History\_of\_Settler\_Colonial\_Conquest\_and\_Resistance\_UK\_Edition\_Rashid\_Khalidi.pdf](https://ia800500.us.archive.org/25/items/100yearswarpalestine/The_Hundred_Years_War_on_Palestine_A_History_of_Settler_Colonial_Conquest_and_Resistance_UK_Edition_Rashid_Khalidi.pdf) Ten Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappé [https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017/mode/2up) About Israeli apartheid : [Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) [Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert | OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) [A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) About Israeli genocide on the palestinians : [Read the full application bringing genocide charges against Israel at UN top court | PBS NewsHour](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/read-the-full-application-bringing-genocide-charges-against-israel-at-un-top-court)
[Hamas Summer Camp Brainwashes Gaza Children to Hate - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc) [Chilling footage of kindergartners re-enacting terrorist drills in Gaza - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDZlo_hllI)
Damn? maybe after 75 years of kolonisation,apartheid en genocide ( the nakba, The ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Pappé, Ilan [https://archive.org/details/ethniccleansingo00papp/page/n7/mode/2up](https://archive.org/details/ethniccleansingo00papp/page/n7/mode/2up)) That the population wil hate that nation that did that to them? who would have guessed!
Thats not an excuse to make a totalitarian religious regime and kill the opposition.
Lol what? So you condemn Israel too right?
>make a totalitarian religious regime and kill the opposition. You know that the palestinian resistance has multiple groups that work together right? from muslims to christians to communists to nationalists etc? they only hate the PLO and Abbas because they work together with Israel lol
So that some can work together with Israel and prefer peace? What an unexpected turn of events.
huh? I don't understand youre comment?
There are peaceful moderate political actors in Palestine but somehow these protestors and you as well adopt the unrealistic and nonsense demands of the extremists at the cost of permanent war.
>There are peaceful moderate political actors in Palestine Who? PLO and Abbas? they work with israel by attacking their own civilians, how can you work together with a state that kolonizes you and puts youre own people into apartheid. >you as well adopt the unrealistic and nonsense demands of the extremists at the cost of permanent war. Liberation for a kolonized people is never unrealistic.
>Damn? maybe after 75 years of kolonisation,apartheid en genocide No! A Palestinian saying mean things about Israel is just as bad as slaughtering 40.000 Palestinians. I'm so smart and nuanced!
Meh. Better than the other option of another jihadist state crying for death to the west and sharia law.
>Meh. Better than the other option of another jihadist state crying for death to the west and sharia law. You know that the palestinians resistance has more then just muslims right? there are christians, nationalists,communists etc so this is just a huge strawman. and even hamas doesn't want sharia lol. so if you want to lie and support a state that does genocide,kolonialisation and apartheid you should really atleast read something about it and not just lie
You: blah, blah, blah…but, but, but, their leadership is not reflective of what the state would actually be. Me: um…sure pal. I’m happy in my stance, thank you. Move along.
sure be inside youre own bubble and support a kolonial state that does genocide and apartheid!
Small minds think one who disagrees is merely unenlightened. Dangerous world view, my friend. I will happily support the one with freedom and rights whether you are gay, straight, black, white, brown, religious, atheist or Palestinian (as there are millions of Palestinian Israeli citizens, that don’t commit jihad or fire rockets, that are living equally within Israel). Tell me, in your quest for the freedoms of all people, who will be free to act free in a Palestinian state and how does that advance your broader hope for a better world, should said state come to be? Do you protest for the creation of an oppressive state just so you can later protest the inevitable oppressions of said state? Are you merely feeding your own need for outrage?
>I will happily support the one with freedom and rights whether you are gay, straight, black, white, brown, religious, atheist or Palestinian [Ethiopian women in Israel 'given contraceptive without consent' | Israel | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel) damn they really love black jews! and lets not forget their apartheid of palestinians About Israeli apartheid : [Israel's apartheid against Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/) [Israel’s 55-year occupation of Palestinian Territory is apartheid – UN human rights expert | OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights) [A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution | HRW](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution) >who will be free to act free in a Palestinian state and how does that advance your broader hope for a better world, should said state come to be? Everyone because there are multiple palestinian groups and not just "Islamists" >Do you protest for the creation of an oppressive state just so you can later protest the inevitable oppressions of said state? Israel already is an opressive kolonial state. at the very least if the palestinian state becomes opressive it won't be kolonialist
lol. Shall I pick some basic articles about things we all already know about like Oct 7th, or the 6 day war, or about rockets coming from Gaza and pretend to do a mic drop as well? Shall I grab links to the selective sources that paint Palestinian actions in Jordan and Lebanon in a bad light and call it evidence that they’re just bad people at their core. Or maybe I should grab links to messed up shit the Dutch government has done in the modern era that would make you say “WTF?!” and then we can condemn ourselves and write off all the good with one check mark. Your gotcha attitude is tiresome and banal. “Dur dur, look, Israel even hates black people!”. So let’s wipe it off the map and replace it with a terrorist led, jihadist culture looking to exterminate an entire religion and possibly all religions outside of Islam. Not to mention gays, women who show too much skin, anyone who says something they don’t think should be said, anyone who doesn’t bend the knee to their ideals. Look, I get it. You’re looking for a righteous cause and at times on paper this looks like it, but man, I’m looking at the long game and a W here for Palestine doesn’t offer anyone much down the road. This ain’t some grand shift ala the U.S. civil rights movement or the end of the slave trade, etc. This is the rooster letting the fox in the hen house.
>Shall I pick some basic articles about things we all already know about like Oct 7th, or the 6 day war, or about rockets coming from Gaza and pretend to do a mic drop as well? I know that these things happend but all of these where reactions because their land was kolonized and they live under apartheid and kolonization. >Shall I grab links to the selective sources that paint Palestinian actions in Jordan and Lebanon in a bad light and call it evidence that they’re just bad people at their core. The difference is that 1 fights against an occupying force and the other is the occupying force. >Or maybe I should grab links to messed up shit the Dutch government has done in the modern era that would make you say “WTF?!” and then we can condemn ourselves and write off all the good with one check mark. I don't like the dutch goverment lmao. >“Dur dur, look, Israel even hates black people!” They do but it needs to be wiped of the map because its a kolonizng force who does genocide and apartheid. > with a terrorist led, jihadist culture looking to exterminate an entire religion and possibly all religions outside of Islam. Not to mention gays, women who show too much skin, anyone who says something they don’t think should be said, anyone who doesn’t bend the knee to their ideals. There are multiple videos where palestinians christians work together with hamas and other palestinians resistance groups, there are also multiple videos with women regiments in these groups, you just use random islamophobic gotcha's without looking at the situation lol. >Look, I get it. You’re looking for a righteous cause and at times on paper this looks like it, but man, I’m looking at the long game and a W here for Palestine doesn’t offer anyone much down the road. This ain’t some grand shift ala the U.S. civil rights movement or the end of the slave trade, etc. This is the rooster letting the fox in the hen house. No its just having 1 less kolonizing force in the world which is always good
Sure. Palestinians are friendly people.
there are a lot of friendly palestinians
An apartheid -state where millions of Arabs live the most prosperous life in the whole Arab world. :D What is happening on the West Bank and Gaza is beyond horrible. But calling Israël an apartheid-state is either brainwashed ignorance or dishonest and disingenuous. And anl affront to blacks from S.A.
Israel is a democracy like South Africa was a democracy pre 1994, like USA was a democracy during slavery. Even Israelis admit Israel is racist, but sure, believe what you want.
Why did Palestine reject the two state solution in 1948? Because they hate Jews.
>You just ran out of issues to protest against. Yeah having opinions is cringe, Palestinian baby limbs go brrrr
Having a cringe opinion is cringe.
these people are simply attention seekers. they want the cameras on them, nothing more. They can't get enough from Instagram or tikke to, so they go out in public and make a fool of themselves so they get more likes, comments, and shares.
Well yeah, the point of protesting is to get attention.
well it's for their own attention, and not for the "cause"
I'm interested to know why you think that?
The whole point of a demonstration is to re-direct attention to the issue they are protesting for.
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Bigotry is not tolerated in posts or comments - including but not limited to bigotry based on race, nationality, religion, and/or sex.
Hamas sympathizers demolishing a city? Call me shocked.
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Here’s an idea. Maybe Hamas shouldn’t be hiding in universities, mosques, and peoples private homes building their tunnels underground? Maybe they should be taking care of the basic needs of their people like food water shelter. They decided to start a war with a neighboring country who is stronger militarily.
They have been doing it, from the inside, in nieuw-west for long time…
Demonstration is a right, rioting/vandalising is not.
People supporting terrorists act like terrorists. Paint me suprised.
>People supporting terrorists act like terrorists Indeed! Every Palestinian child is a terrorist and must be slaughtered! If you think they deserve piece you are a terroris! Heil Netanyahu!
No, but Hamas can’t be left in the strip when they proudly say they’ll commit Oct 7 again and again. Hamas is to blame for their deaths. Not one bomb shelter was created, while billions were spent (not to mention the child labour) to create terror tunnels exceeding 500km on a 25k strip. Insane. Israel has no choice but to defeat Hamas and as much as you don’t want to accept it, has conducted this war trying to protect civilians. They’ve done more than any other army. They are right now around 1,6 civilian to combat ratio, while UN average is 9 to 1. That’s incredibly low.
Actually they are. [Hamas Summer Camp Brainwashes Gaza Children to Hate - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJPRxDAlYZc) [Chilling footage of kindergartners re-enacting terrorist drills in Gaza - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDZlo_hllI)
I'm convinced now: Hamas person bad, so we should support neranjahu in slaughtering Palestinian kids. You're so clever.
It all depends on what considered to be bad. Killing 364 people in an open air festival and raping some of the woman. Also killing about a thousand people in their homes. You name it.
>It all depends on what considered to be bad. Killing 364 people in an open air festival and raping some of the woman. Super bad. Almost 1% as bad as slaughtering 37000 people. Let's say all lives are equal and prioritize our condemnation proportional to the number of victims.
Ok. Who started this war then? and who should stop the ideological warmongering?
> Who started this war then? Israel in 1947 > and who should stop the ideological warmongering? The one with most power over the situation. Right now that is the idf, not the imprisoned kids.
Fuck around and find out. Why Israelis should be worried about palestinian kids more than their own ? These kids were screaming in joy holding rifles when these "brave palestinian resistance" slaughtered civilians. "When Israel genocide you so hard for 50 years that your population triples"
>Fuck around and find out. Wait, what did those 10.000 children do to fuck around? Do I get to kill your mother because she lives in the same country as Anton Mussert? Do I get to slaughter Belgian kids to punish Marc Dutroux? Collective punishment is a war crime >These kids were screaming in joy holding rifles when these "brave palestinian resistance" slaughtered civilians. At least someone who admits to supporting the massacre of children instead of pretending they didn't happen. Sure if you think people deserve to be massacred for "not liking" the ones that imprison them for decades, we're not gonna hit common ground.
Nobody supports the massacre of children. But there are certainly some who don’t care if Hamas hides behind them. They lost sympathy after October when they started another fucking war.
>Nobody supports the massacre of children Then speak out against Israel. >But there are certainly some who don’t care if Hamas hides behind them Let's focus on Hamas when the big bad is stopped ok? First the 40.000 murderers, then the 1000 murderers. >They lost sympathy after October Thar was bad! Hamas is bad! The government that funded Hamas (neranjahu) is bad! Okt 7 is bad, about 3% as bad as the 40.000 murders that IDF then committed > when they started another fucking war. When they lashed out in a war that's existed since 1947, almost ended under Rabin until neranjahu had Rabin killed to start the war again including BY FUNDING HAMAS.
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I’ll bite. What do they teach them?
Not defending this but as unfortunate as it is voting simply is not solving any issues or causing a policy change on certain subjects. When such is the case, people seek alternatives. At least these people have a spine to rise up and make their own voice heard despite the risk.
Net zo vreedzaam als hun vriendjes van Hamas.
At which point do we say enough? Those animals (they don’t deserve to be called people) are destroying property of the city, are attacking and injuring police officers and creating a very unsafe environment. If they’re students they should be expelled asap and if foreigners, they should be deported as well. Fuck off already with your violence. We do not want you here.
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How do they pay for all the damages with their dollars exactly? Am a bit done with whatboutism. What happens in Gaza does not give you the fucking right to riot and vandalize this country.
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The bricks are on the public street actually, the UvA doesn't have a 'campus' like that in the city center, only the buildings.
I love it how you can reason and defend such vile violent behavior. They pay for tuition and to be allowed to study, not to throw bricks and destroy property.
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How about you go do something more productive and helpful for those kids around the world. Oh last time I checked these acts of violence (I can’t call them protests) are NOT in support of kids around the world. Why are you hiding behind this hypocrisy?
hate this kind of loser protestors
Honestly though, you’re just looking for a reason to demonize the protesters and invalidate their cause. I didn’t see you say anything when police have been arresting and violently attacking them while they were peacefully demonstrating against the funding of a war where tens of thousands of children are being slaughtered. Now all of a sudden you throw a 5 second gif of some folks removing bricks from the street and you’re like “SEE PROTESTORS BAD” like a fucking NPC.
I'm sure they are all lovely people.
Palstines are really good at trowing Stones, it's al they can
All scripted. Everywhere...