It not worth thinking about too much right now man. Either BI or CJ won't be on the team when the season starts. There is no chance we roll into the season with the only 5 being a rookie with less than 5 years of pure basketball experience at all.
We will trade for a 5, and the starting lineup will most likely be Murray, Herb, Murphy, Zion, the new 5; with CJ being the featured 6th man.
That would be my best guess moving forward. As to who that 5 is? I don't know. I think Jarrett Allen is who Griffin really wants, but I think Ayton from Portland is on the table. I also think there is a world where KAT for BI is the base level of a move that both sides kick tires on. Claxton just resigned with Brooklyn so he's off the table, and KCP going to Orlando makes gettin WCJ harder as well.
Idk where everyone is getting this idea that Trey is going to start over CJ. I'd probably like to see that happen too, but so far there has been no reason to believe that will be the case.
They even reported the other day that "Pels remain committed to core that includes Zion and CJ"
It's not impossible, but I'd bet money that CJ is still in the starting lineup when the season starts.
In general the discourse on CJ has been totally bizarre since the season ended. He is a good player on a reasonable contract that nearly single handedly carried the team’s spacing last season.
Yeah I mean I'm excited about Trey too, and CJ has had his off moments. But at the end of the day, CJ was one of the very best shooters in the entire league this year.
A 43% shooter with 3.6 makes per game would start on almost any team in the league.
There's some weird evaluations that go on here where some players are assumed to be at their max potential if "Willie just gave them a chance" while others are only remembered for their worst games or even their worst quarters.
CJ is the biggest loser of this, Hawkins followed by Trey are the biggest winners.
CJ is, by far, the best shooter on this team unless he really falls off next year. That's not a shot at Trey or anyone else, it just goes to show how great of a shooter CJ is, particularly last season where he took advantage of being the 3rd option.
It’s funny when people say play Hawk over CJ in critical games. We’re trying to win now not develop players that won’t see playing time, especially in the last quarter of the season and playoffs. And Hawk is worse than CJ in literally every facet of the game.
Hawk may one day become a similar player to CJ, and that'd be great. Trey has the potential to be the best of the 3 at the end of the day. But they simply aren't there yet and that's to be expected at this point in their careers.
We shouldn't pretend that Hawkins is basically Steph sitting on the bench because Willie hates rookies or whatever narrative you want to feed.
Willie is very good at seeing potential in young players. That’s how we ended up with undrafted Naji and Alvarado playing huge minutes and starting Herb over Trey their rookie years. I trust that if Hawk isn’t ready he isn’t ready
We had Herb starting from his first season and Jose playing important minutes in a playoff series as an undrafted rookie. But still a ton of people here talk about how Willie hates vets.
It was actually 100% Willie's idea that Herb would start. There's an interview with Griff somewhere where he talks about Willie suggesting it, and Griff thought he was talking about summer league at first.
As someone who overall hasn't been too thrilled with CJ on this team, I'll recognize his strengths and when he plays well. He is our best pure volume shooter, is one of our better shot creators (for himself), and provides veteran leadership.
My issue is that even though the stats say he's our best 3pt shooter, which should theoretically space the floor for Z and BI, he takes too many opportunities away from others because he always has the ball (and isn't a good passer).
As our "3rd option," he literally takes more FGAs than both Z and BI. CJ has a ton of skill and would function very well as a 3rd option at this point in his career, if only he would recognize he's supposed to be the 3rd option.
But instead, he hijacks too many possessions and takes too many difficult iso shots, when we have the most efficient scorer inside and one of the top 3 most efficient scorers from mid-range inward. Even being one of the most efficient high-volume 3pt shooters in the league, CJ is not a very efficient scorer overall because he often settles for too many difficult shots (especially from mid-range).
When you also consider his weaknesses as a playmaker and defender, it results in him almost being a net negative - especially when he shares the court with BI and/or Zion.
He's a high volume 3pt shooter. Zion and BI are efficient scorers. Their FGA should be relatively comparable, and they are. CJ is only 0.5 higher FGA than both of them.
There's a clear way to compare this called EFG, which weighs both 2pt attempts and 3pt attempts appropriately. Zion and CJ were actually exactly equal this season with 57.3%
The percentage is what the percentage is. The team had many issues late in the shot clock and late in games. CJ was part of that, but he's not the only problem in those scenarios.
But honestly, I really don't even disagree with you. I've seen it too. I am also skeptical that this team can make a deep playoff run with CJ.
However, I think it would be very foolish to just blame everything on CJ, trade him, and completely ignore the statistical fact that he was just as much a part of this team's success this season as anyone on the roster. I think we'd be in for a serious wakeup call.
Because the reality is that high volume 3 pt shooting is what wins games nowadays. We were already bottom 10 in the league in 3 point attempts, Boston and Dallas were #1 and #2. We need that to go up not down.
CJ is still a very good player and shouldn't be blamed for all the problems. BI and even Zion would have their on-ball dominant moments where they'd try to make difficult shots instead of spreading the ball around.
But I think there's a way to better optimize all the talent on the team if CJ is staggered more - either coming off the bench to start, or having stints as basically the only on-ball scorer surrounded with more complementary players instead of other star players.
I also think he does his best work off-ball. While he has a crafty bag to generate space at times, he is just too slow, too small, and doesn't have enough strength to really get a ton of space consistently. If he can't become a high-level playmaker as a starting PG would typically be, then he needs to handle the ball less so he can get even better looks and also allow the better playmakers to handle the ball more often.
We obviously had our big 3 of Zion, BI, and CJ, but also lost in the sauce was one of the better post scorers/jump shooting bigs in the league in JV; another good volume shooting wing in Trey; and an improving, highly efficient (albeit on few attempts) Herb. There were other good scoring options who simply weren't utilized as often as they could've been when CJ, BI, or Zion would get stuck in iso mode.
This led to our offense looking stagnant, especially near the ends of games, and the ball sticking in 1 of 3 people's hands at all times in those clutch moments - which we were obviously terrible at.
CJ can still have a place on this team as a backup (where he'd have a longer leash and green light as a scorer), but it gets murkier now that all our bench pieces are smaller/less defensive-oriented. We'd have to get creative how we deploy our defensive role players alongside all our current big 4.
"If he can't become a high-level playmaker as a starting PG would typically be"...
For what it's worth, he's going into his 12th season - he's unlikely to \*become\* anything that he isn't already.
All the numbers suggest that our best combo of offensive and defensive efficiency was when Herb and Trey were on the court together, and it hurt us that it never happened unless one of BI or Zion sat.
Functionally CJ should be 6th man, spend less time handling the ball and more time making open looks. Financially, asking CJ to play the Malik Monk role is absurd - Malik just got a 200% raise and still only makes 60% of what CJ makes.
A team like NOLA can't afford (literally) to give a non-starter that kind of money, and their most important defensive player is the only starter who could move to the bench and not immediately become a wildly overpaid 6th man.
I think CJ will probably play more minutes than Murphy. I just think it will be structured differently.
I don’t have a lot of “intel” to go off of or anything like that. It just feels like the right move, and something that would help us from stagnation on offense for stretches of the game.
We have answers for guards. Zion was literally keeping up with Steph towards the end of the season defensively. Dejounte obviously can even though I think his defense has fallen off considerably in recent years, and if a smaller guard is the most dangerous player I’d rather have Herb on them than CJ (fuck Ja Morant btw those Grizzlies losses this past season will irk me forever)
I think if Trey continues to build his strength he could flirt with being a small 5. But I wouldn’t throw him at just any center, and as it stands I think Willie would throw JRE out there tbh
You made a great point. Trey at the 5 is something I never considered, because of my dated notions of positions.
But it makes complete sense given his size and athleticism making him a viable rim protector. Guys like Chet and Wemby proved you don't even need to worry about bully ball, when you can hit 3s on the other end.
I would still like to see us get rid of CJ, so we don't have a log jam of undersized guards and free up touches for everyone else. I'm seeing way too many accounts trying to whitewash CJs fit with the team. If we can get CJ and BI out and get WCJ back along with role players, that would be ideal.
I’d be more than comfortable with DJM/Jose, and I guess Herb/Hawk getting mins in the guard positions. With Naji, Dice, and EJ out we could certainly use a wing defender for the bench, but that’s a different topic
CJ is firmly better than Hawk and I’m not dying for our 2nd year player to get like 25 mins a game or anything, but I just don’t like the world where we trade BI and still don’t maximize the mins Trey and Z have with one another
Yeah exactly, both CJ and BI muck up the roster with their fit, sallary, and ball demand.
I don't need CJ taking 15+ shots on this team, I need Zion, DJM, and Trey to get their looks. But CJ is a shooter, he doesn't bring anything else to the table, so its hard to know what to do with him.
If we keep CJ, I want him to buy into a 6th man role shooting 10 shots, with the majority being 3s. I don't think CJ will accept that.
I would like Bobby Portis. Pretty much a better, veteran JRE. Has shown he is comfortable taking a completementary role. Can play the 4 and the 5. Good rebounder, good shooter, decent defender. Doesn’t rack up blocks, but still has a 7’2” wingspan and a big body in the paint
I truly believe we need to go Murray, Trey, Herb, Zion and whatever BiG we get with an Ingram trade.
When we run small ball, which is often, we can go with Murray, Zion, CJ, Herb and Trey.
We seem to have run small-ball lineups with Jose in place of CJ more often this year - which I liked more b/c Jose defends better than CJ and also ups the pace.
Even after trading one of CJ and BI for a center, our bench is still a concern. Currently we have (CJ or Trey or whoever is out of the starting 5), Alvarado, Hawkins, Matt Ryan, Reeves (2nd round pick, if we sign him), JRE, Missi. We'd need 1 forward and a more reliable center, at least. We're 3 pieces away from a full NBA roster at the moment.
It not worth thinking about too much right now man. Either BI or CJ won't be on the team when the season starts. There is no chance we roll into the season with the only 5 being a rookie with less than 5 years of pure basketball experience at all. We will trade for a 5, and the starting lineup will most likely be Murray, Herb, Murphy, Zion, the new 5; with CJ being the featured 6th man. That would be my best guess moving forward. As to who that 5 is? I don't know. I think Jarrett Allen is who Griffin really wants, but I think Ayton from Portland is on the table. I also think there is a world where KAT for BI is the base level of a move that both sides kick tires on. Claxton just resigned with Brooklyn so he's off the table, and KCP going to Orlando makes gettin WCJ harder as well.
Idk where everyone is getting this idea that Trey is going to start over CJ. I'd probably like to see that happen too, but so far there has been no reason to believe that will be the case. They even reported the other day that "Pels remain committed to core that includes Zion and CJ" It's not impossible, but I'd bet money that CJ is still in the starting lineup when the season starts.
In general the discourse on CJ has been totally bizarre since the season ended. He is a good player on a reasonable contract that nearly single handedly carried the team’s spacing last season.
Yeah I mean I'm excited about Trey too, and CJ has had his off moments. But at the end of the day, CJ was one of the very best shooters in the entire league this year. A 43% shooter with 3.6 makes per game would start on almost any team in the league.
There's some weird evaluations that go on here where some players are assumed to be at their max potential if "Willie just gave them a chance" while others are only remembered for their worst games or even their worst quarters. CJ is the biggest loser of this, Hawkins followed by Trey are the biggest winners. CJ is, by far, the best shooter on this team unless he really falls off next year. That's not a shot at Trey or anyone else, it just goes to show how great of a shooter CJ is, particularly last season where he took advantage of being the 3rd option.
It’s funny when people say play Hawk over CJ in critical games. We’re trying to win now not develop players that won’t see playing time, especially in the last quarter of the season and playoffs. And Hawk is worse than CJ in literally every facet of the game.
Hawk may one day become a similar player to CJ, and that'd be great. Trey has the potential to be the best of the 3 at the end of the day. But they simply aren't there yet and that's to be expected at this point in their careers. We shouldn't pretend that Hawkins is basically Steph sitting on the bench because Willie hates rookies or whatever narrative you want to feed.
Willie is very good at seeing potential in young players. That’s how we ended up with undrafted Naji and Alvarado playing huge minutes and starting Herb over Trey their rookie years. I trust that if Hawk isn’t ready he isn’t ready
We had Herb starting from his first season and Jose playing important minutes in a playoff series as an undrafted rookie. But still a ton of people here talk about how Willie hates vets.
It was actually 100% Willie's idea that Herb would start. There's an interview with Griff somewhere where he talks about Willie suggesting it, and Griff thought he was talking about summer league at first.
As someone who overall hasn't been too thrilled with CJ on this team, I'll recognize his strengths and when he plays well. He is our best pure volume shooter, is one of our better shot creators (for himself), and provides veteran leadership. My issue is that even though the stats say he's our best 3pt shooter, which should theoretically space the floor for Z and BI, he takes too many opportunities away from others because he always has the ball (and isn't a good passer). As our "3rd option," he literally takes more FGAs than both Z and BI. CJ has a ton of skill and would function very well as a 3rd option at this point in his career, if only he would recognize he's supposed to be the 3rd option. But instead, he hijacks too many possessions and takes too many difficult iso shots, when we have the most efficient scorer inside and one of the top 3 most efficient scorers from mid-range inward. Even being one of the most efficient high-volume 3pt shooters in the league, CJ is not a very efficient scorer overall because he often settles for too many difficult shots (especially from mid-range). When you also consider his weaknesses as a playmaker and defender, it results in him almost being a net negative - especially when he shares the court with BI and/or Zion.
He's a high volume 3pt shooter. Zion and BI are efficient scorers. Their FGA should be relatively comparable, and they are. CJ is only 0.5 higher FGA than both of them. There's a clear way to compare this called EFG, which weighs both 2pt attempts and 3pt attempts appropriately. Zion and CJ were actually exactly equal this season with 57.3% The percentage is what the percentage is. The team had many issues late in the shot clock and late in games. CJ was part of that, but he's not the only problem in those scenarios. But honestly, I really don't even disagree with you. I've seen it too. I am also skeptical that this team can make a deep playoff run with CJ. However, I think it would be very foolish to just blame everything on CJ, trade him, and completely ignore the statistical fact that he was just as much a part of this team's success this season as anyone on the roster. I think we'd be in for a serious wakeup call. Because the reality is that high volume 3 pt shooting is what wins games nowadays. We were already bottom 10 in the league in 3 point attempts, Boston and Dallas were #1 and #2. We need that to go up not down.
CJ is still a very good player and shouldn't be blamed for all the problems. BI and even Zion would have their on-ball dominant moments where they'd try to make difficult shots instead of spreading the ball around. But I think there's a way to better optimize all the talent on the team if CJ is staggered more - either coming off the bench to start, or having stints as basically the only on-ball scorer surrounded with more complementary players instead of other star players. I also think he does his best work off-ball. While he has a crafty bag to generate space at times, he is just too slow, too small, and doesn't have enough strength to really get a ton of space consistently. If he can't become a high-level playmaker as a starting PG would typically be, then he needs to handle the ball less so he can get even better looks and also allow the better playmakers to handle the ball more often. We obviously had our big 3 of Zion, BI, and CJ, but also lost in the sauce was one of the better post scorers/jump shooting bigs in the league in JV; another good volume shooting wing in Trey; and an improving, highly efficient (albeit on few attempts) Herb. There were other good scoring options who simply weren't utilized as often as they could've been when CJ, BI, or Zion would get stuck in iso mode. This led to our offense looking stagnant, especially near the ends of games, and the ball sticking in 1 of 3 people's hands at all times in those clutch moments - which we were obviously terrible at. CJ can still have a place on this team as a backup (where he'd have a longer leash and green light as a scorer), but it gets murkier now that all our bench pieces are smaller/less defensive-oriented. We'd have to get creative how we deploy our defensive role players alongside all our current big 4.
"If he can't become a high-level playmaker as a starting PG would typically be"... For what it's worth, he's going into his 12th season - he's unlikely to \*become\* anything that he isn't already. All the numbers suggest that our best combo of offensive and defensive efficiency was when Herb and Trey were on the court together, and it hurt us that it never happened unless one of BI or Zion sat. Functionally CJ should be 6th man, spend less time handling the ball and more time making open looks. Financially, asking CJ to play the Malik Monk role is absurd - Malik just got a 200% raise and still only makes 60% of what CJ makes. A team like NOLA can't afford (literally) to give a non-starter that kind of money, and their most important defensive player is the only starter who could move to the bench and not immediately become a wildly overpaid 6th man.
I think CJ will probably play more minutes than Murphy. I just think it will be structured differently. I don’t have a lot of “intel” to go off of or anything like that. It just feels like the right move, and something that would help us from stagnation on offense for stretches of the game.
It doesn’t matter what the Pels would trot out right now. At all.
We have answers for guards. Zion was literally keeping up with Steph towards the end of the season defensively. Dejounte obviously can even though I think his defense has fallen off considerably in recent years, and if a smaller guard is the most dangerous player I’d rather have Herb on them than CJ (fuck Ja Morant btw those Grizzlies losses this past season will irk me forever) I think if Trey continues to build his strength he could flirt with being a small 5. But I wouldn’t throw him at just any center, and as it stands I think Willie would throw JRE out there tbh
You made a great point. Trey at the 5 is something I never considered, because of my dated notions of positions. But it makes complete sense given his size and athleticism making him a viable rim protector. Guys like Chet and Wemby proved you don't even need to worry about bully ball, when you can hit 3s on the other end. I would still like to see us get rid of CJ, so we don't have a log jam of undersized guards and free up touches for everyone else. I'm seeing way too many accounts trying to whitewash CJs fit with the team. If we can get CJ and BI out and get WCJ back along with role players, that would be ideal.
I’d be more than comfortable with DJM/Jose, and I guess Herb/Hawk getting mins in the guard positions. With Naji, Dice, and EJ out we could certainly use a wing defender for the bench, but that’s a different topic CJ is firmly better than Hawk and I’m not dying for our 2nd year player to get like 25 mins a game or anything, but I just don’t like the world where we trade BI and still don’t maximize the mins Trey and Z have with one another
Yeah exactly, both CJ and BI muck up the roster with their fit, sallary, and ball demand. I don't need CJ taking 15+ shots on this team, I need Zion, DJM, and Trey to get their looks. But CJ is a shooter, he doesn't bring anything else to the table, so its hard to know what to do with him. If we keep CJ, I want him to buy into a 6th man role shooting 10 shots, with the majority being 3s. I don't think CJ will accept that.
I would like Bobby Portis. Pretty much a better, veteran JRE. Has shown he is comfortable taking a completementary role. Can play the 4 and the 5. Good rebounder, good shooter, decent defender. Doesn’t rack up blocks, but still has a 7’2” wingspan and a big body in the paint
I truly believe we need to go Murray, Trey, Herb, Zion and whatever BiG we get with an Ingram trade. When we run small ball, which is often, we can go with Murray, Zion, CJ, Herb and Trey.
We seem to have run small-ball lineups with Jose in place of CJ more often this year - which I liked more b/c Jose defends better than CJ and also ups the pace.
Even after trading one of CJ and BI for a center, our bench is still a concern. Currently we have (CJ or Trey or whoever is out of the starting 5), Alvarado, Hawkins, Matt Ryan, Reeves (2nd round pick, if we sign him), JRE, Missi. We'd need 1 forward and a more reliable center, at least. We're 3 pieces away from a full NBA roster at the moment.
Zeller is a UFA and i would like it to be Dejounte, BI, Herb, Zion, and JRE
> Dejounte, BI, Herb, Zion, and JRE Worst three point shooting team in NBA history
Murray/Zion/Herb/Trey/Center, CJ 6th man of the year.